Arlene Foster, Northern Ireland First Minister HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Sarah Montague.

Almost everyone agrees there should not be a return to police checks

and custom posts on the border between Northern Ireland

and the Republic.

But how else should the border be managed once the UK has left the EU?

And particularly, if it leaves the single market?

My guest on HARDtalk today is Northern Ireland's First Minister,

Arlene Foster.

Unlike most people here in Northern Ireland,

she voted for Brexit.

So how does she see it working and how would she ensure that it

doesn't mean a return to the divisions of the past?

Arlene Foster, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

How do you see the border operating once the UK has left the EU?

Well, I think since the referendum has happened, there have been many

discussions, a lot of them talking about the border and about the fact

that we had a common travel area before our membership

of the European Union with the Republic of Ireland.

I'm glad to say that colleagues in the Republic of Ireland,

the Government at Westminster and ourselves are all at one

in relation to the common travel area, that we want to see movement

across the two islands to be as open as we possibly can make it,

whilst respecting, of course, the result that took place on 23rd

June.

That means trying to manage that border in a very

practical, pragmatic way.

All these problems, which I notice the Maltese Prime Minister,

who is about to take on the EU presidency describes as "some

of the most sensitive issues of the negotiation",

do you agree with that?

Well, first of all I welcome the fact that he recognises

there is a unique situation on the island of Ireland that has

to be dealt with and I think it is good that the person

who is going to take over the presidency of the EU has put it

right at the top of the agenda.

I think that's good and it is a recognition

that we have a unique set of circumstances here.

OK, but they would be easier if we stayed a member

of the single market.

Is that what would you like to see?

Well, of course, we have said that we want -

this is reflected in our letter to the Prime Minister,

which myself and the Deputy First Minister here in Northern Ireland,

sent back in August, that we wanted the maximum amount

of access to the single market.

We do.

Does that mean having full access to the single market.

We know probably better than anybody else about negotiations

and how negotiations happen.

So, therefore, we have to enter in a realistic frame of mind that

yes we would like to see the maximum amount of access to the single

market but we do realise that the Prime Minister is heading

into a negotiation and therefore she will have to make compromises

in and around different areas.

What we want to ensure is that she has a full understanding

of what goes on here in Northern Ireland and the impacts

that each of her decisions will have.

But that letter, you will know well, an SDLP Assembly Member said

the letter is like a pro-Remain information leaflet because of all

the things you were asking for in it and yet you campaigned for Brexit.

So, I wonder, when you were campaigning, did you intend

that the UK leave the single market?

What I intended in campaigning, in respect of Brexit,

was the fact that I believed it was better for the United Kingdom

to be outside the European Union.

Why do I say this?

I say that for a number of different reasons.

I'm asking a different question...

But you have to put it in context.

Part of the single market.

And that's what I'm particularly interested in.

Because you will know, that decision, so much flows

from it, not least what happens to the border.

Well, interestingly we had a discussion about this very issue

at the British-Irish Council very recently.

Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and indeed the crown dependencies

of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man and we all came together

to say and we agreed that we wanted the maximum access

to the single market.

Why do I keep talking about maximum access?

Because I know the Prime Minister will have some very difficult

decisions to take and we certainly want to support her in making those

decisions but we also want her to recognise the history

and geography of Northern Ireland and how we are different

from Scotland, Wales and England and all of this and we need those

circumstances taken into account.

Because you are wanting special status?

No, we are not wanting special status.

I think we are wanting our history and geography recognised not just

by the United Kingdom Government, not just by Dublin, which I think

they both do, but also for the European Union as well,

and for them to understand what is going on.

I think that the Maltese Prime Minister has already recognised

that.

But it is such a strange thing.

Perhaps your position would be more understandable if you had

voted for Remain.

But you didn't.

Unlike the majority of people in Northern Ireland,

you voted for Brexit, yet here you are saying -

oh, special status, we want to be closer to the EU...

I'm not saying special status.

...than the UK is likely to end up.

I'm not saying special status at all.

All I'm saying is we voted as a nation...

You used the word "unique" three times.

There is a difference between uniqueness and special status.

I think language is very important in all of this dialogue.

I think the European Union recognises that we have a unique

set of circumstances.

We are the only part of the United Kingdom

with a land border.

Put that on top of the fact that we have a very distinct history

here in terms of relationships between Northern Ireland

and the Republic of Ireland and actually we have a very strong

set of relationships between ourselves and the Dublin Government

at the moment.

However it plays out, do you accept that it is the end

of a fully open border between the North and the Republic?

I think there are ways to deal with that.

There are many people who come to the island of Ireland

at the minute and move between Northern Ireland

and the Republic of Ireland and that's the way we want

it to continue.

But there are ways to deal with that.

And, of course, it is around access to services.

So people can visit the island through the common travel area,

but they won't have the same access to service that is they have

at the moment.

OK, but you will know what is critical is what happens

on that border.

For example, is it inevitable that there will have to be customs

posts and border checks?

Not in the traditional sense I don't think it is inevitable.

I think there are ways to deal with that through using our

technology, using data, making sure we have our systems

in place that we can share information between

the United Kingdom and Ireland and the fact...

How?

How?

Because you mentioned this before, a technological border.

I know I did and I think this is something that is gaining currency.

Even before the vote on 23rd June, negotiations and discussions

were ongoing between the United Kingdom Government

and the Government in the Republic of Ireland about the common travel

area and how it could be secure outside of Schengen.

Those discussions are continuing and I think there is a very good way

we can deal with the border, make it a technological border

and make it that we have all the information...

What does that mean?

You will know if somebody travels, perhaps they fly into Dublin

and they need a job and they head North...

Who's?

Well, they won't be able to head North and get a job

unless they are part of the controlled immigration agreed

between the United Kingdom Government.

It will be the paper work that will stop that.

Yes, it will be the paper work that will stop that.

The Prime Minister will agree what our migration levels will be

in relation to what we need.

Someone is running a small business.

Strictly speaking they should face tariffs as they head south

across the border.

Is there nothing to stop them from heading south and into the EU,

from moving goods, selling them?

Again if they are doing it legally, they will have to provide the paper

work at the end point in relation to how they are selling

their product into the European Union.

So there will be a way to deal with that as well.

The whole point is that we are using innovation and methods

that we didn't have when the so-called borders

of the past were in place.

For many people who live along the border in Northern Ireland,

they never felt that there was a real border there

because those of us who lived through the terrorist campaign

of the '70s, '80s and '90s, the border was pretty

porous even then.

So this whole conversation about a return to the borders

of the past, is a little bit difficult for those of us who lived

on the border to take into account.

But what there was at that time, is that there were police checks

and a border...

For very different reasons.

Indeed and that's what people are nervous about.

Why would we have police checks and military borders

there when we don't have the terrorist threat

that we had in the '70s, '80s and '90s?

When you talk about a technological border, are you talking about,

for example, a gantry with cameras, so that lorries will be picked up?

Their number plates read?

I'm reflecting on the fact that there are many land borders

across Europe at the moment and there are many ways

in which they deal with the trade between the different areas

and so they do deal in technological borders.

And they do deal in paperwork that's settled long before it gets

to the border.

But they also deal in customs checks...

Those are sporadic.

But between Norway and Sweden they have customs checks and lorries

are meant to stop.

Is that what would happen, lorries passing the border

would have to stop?

No, we don't envisage lorries will be stopping on a day and daily

basis but there will have to be some checks of some nature that takes

place on a sporadic basis.

For many it is difficult to see and you have a job explaining how

it is even workable?

Well, because it will be settled between the United Kingdom

Government, the Republic of Ireland's Government and Europe.

But what I think is very important is that we are at one in what I call

the triangular relationship between Belfast, Dublin and London

in terms of the common travel area, that people do not want

to see barriers raised.

The Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire has talked

about effectively moving the border of the UK to align with the border

of the Republic of Ireland.

And effectively having control by Irish border control.

Is that something that you see as a possible way forward,

to protect the common travel area?

Well, I think, as I said, they were speaking about this long

before the European Union exit vote was taken.

How do we protect ourselves as two islands against terrorism?

How do we protect ourselves in other ways, and the way they were talking

about was using the common travel area and having that special

relationship between the United Kingdom and Republic

of Ireland recognised by them working very closely together.

So that is the way forward as far as you are concerned?

And of course this would have to be accepted by the other Member States

in Europe and this is the trick, as it were.

Because, of course we can't enter into negotiations around any of this

until Article 50 is triggered and the Republic's Government

are very keen to point out they are not in negotiations

at the moment, they are just in discussions.

This idea of moving the border.

Why should any of the other 26 Member States accept that idea?

Afterall, it is not something that's open to those in the South

of the EU, who have their own battles with migration.

You know, there is a lot of talk about how the UK is going to do

business in Europe but of course the reverse is true as well.

Because, for the Republic of Ireland, Great Britain,

in particular, is their key market.

So they need to be able to protect that as well.

And there has a little bit of that reflected in the conversation

going on between the Polish Prime Minister and our own Prime Minister.

I noticed that over this past few days.

OK but the Poles are arguably very easy to win over,

compared with some of the other Member States within the EU.

Well, you know you are talking to someone who has been engaged

in negotiation and who has been engaged in the political process

probably all of my political life.

So people will be hard at the start of a negotiation,

we all understand that, but, you know, real politic will come

into position and people will have to be pragmatic and look

at the future for everybody.

And this idea of moving the border so that effectively Ireland

is controlling the UK border, for those who said Brexit

is all about taking back control of our borders,

it completely flies in the face of that, doesn't it,

another country would be controlling the border?

No because you would only do it in the terms we are talking about,

if we had full disclosure and openness between the two

Sovereign governments, as to how it was going to work.

I think it is a very interesting concept.

I think it is a way to deal with the very particular

circumstances of Northern Ireland, in terms of history and geography

but of course I do recognise we are heading into a negotiation

and there will be tweaks and innovation and flexibilities

that none of us have thought of to date.

That's what happens in a negotiation process.

We all start off with the historic backgrounds as to what should happen

but then once you enter into the negotiation,

people have to compromise and accommodate each other and then

we end up with the finished project.

You have said that Northern Ireland is going to be front and centre

of the negotiations, but James Brokenshire,

representing Northern Ireland, is only allowed in the room

when Northern Ireland is being discussed.

Is that good enough?

Well, he is a Cabinet minister but we are of course engaged

directly with the Prime Minister and we made that very clear right

from the beginning, that we would have to be engaged

directly with her.

We are doing that through the joint ministerial committee both

at plenary level and European exit level and at European exit level

and of course I'm speaking to the Prime Minister myself

directly as well.

How frequently?

And with David Davis as well.

Well, we haven't started the negotiations yet but it will,

of course, become more frequent, once the negotiations start.

But you are satisfied with the access and the involvement

you have been promised.

I have no reason - any time I want to speak to any

of the Government ministers I get access, so there

is no difficulty there.

You will know there are plenty who are very concerned about what it

could mean, it as plays out.

Not least the Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, who talks about common

membership of the EU being part of the glue that holds

the transition process together.

Well, of course the peace that we have here in

Northern Ireland has been hard won by those of us who live

here and who have been through many of the different

political processes.

And we now have a very stable set of institutions here in

Northern Ireland.

And whilst the European Union were not at the heart of that,

I would certainly not take away from the fact that the Union have

been supportive in terms of funding, for example.

We've probably accessed more funding than other parts

of the United Kingdom and that has been helpful,

I have to say, that but in terms of the constitutional position,

it remains the same under the Belfast agreement and indeed

all of the successor agreements as well.

Charles Litchfield, analyst with the Eurasia Group,

the political risk consultancy firm, said, "I would be very worried

about the fragile balance between the communities

in the event of Brexit."

Neil Jarman said, and he specialises in Northern Ireland conflict

at Queen's University Belfast, says, "It would emphasise the difference

between Britain and the Republic of Ireland."

And that's the fear, that you are changing something

that is such a delicate balance, that has been so hard fought for.

Well, we have just spent, I don't know how many minutes

talking about the fact that we have a very strong

relationship with the Dublin government, that we may enter

into negotiations around the common travel area.

I don't think that the relationship between us and the Republic

of Ireland is going to change.

I think it has become quite mature, actually, over this past period

of time when we have had a set of institutions

here in Northern Ireland and it is about mutual respect.

We do respect the Sovereign Government of the Republic

of Ireland an we want them, likewise, to respect the fact that

under the Belfast agreement and its successor agreements,

that the people of Northern Ireland will decide in what direction

we are going in terms of our membership of the United Kingdom

and actually, if you look at the polls and one is always

tempted not to look at the polls given this last year we've had,

but if you look at the polls since the referendum there hasn't

been any discernible shift in terms of whether people want to remain

within the United Kingdom or go towards a United Ireland.

It's back to the point about people and this is true of Scotland

and true of Northern Ireland, people are trying to say

that our membership of the European Union poll

is in some way linked to an independence poll.

It couldn't be further from the truth.

You say the people of Northern Ireland will decide.

Well, the people of Northern Ireland decided they want to be part

of the EU.

No, you see this is completely wrong.

We were asked a very specific question as to whether we wanted

the United Kingdom to remain within the European Union.

We weren't asked if we wanted Northern Ireland to remain

within the European Union and outside of the United Kingdom

because of course the most important trading block for us

in Northern Ireland is the UK.

67% of our goods are sold within the United Kingdom.

So the fact that there were so many, 56% of Northern Ireland voted

to Remain, more of your own constituency, it was an even

wider margin there.

Well, I live in a Nationalist constituency, of course.

But you are in this strange situation where -

and many people said it when that letter came out in August that

you signed with the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness -

where you flagged up all the problems that arose

as a result of Brexit, problems which you had criticised

people for raising in advance.

How do you explain that?

No, I didn't.

What I said was - in the longer term and indeed I believe in the medium

term, as a nation, I think we will wholly benefit

from being outside of the European Union.

That doesn't take away from the fact that of course we will have

short-term challenges in terms of transition to leaving

the European Union.

Of course we will have those but I think in the medium to longer

term we'll benefit greatly from being outside the European Union.

My fear is...

But you are concerned that the border must not be

a catalyst for illegal activity.

That's correct.

My experience as a Trade Minister for over seven years,

pointed me in the direction of leaving the European Union,

because of the over regulation, because of the lack of innovation,

the lack of flexibility.

The state aid rules that were imposed upon us.

We have just very recently lost our international flight

because we weren't able to intervene, state aid would not

allow us to intervene from a European Union...

You are concerned about the border, we must allow access to unskilled

and skilled foreign labour there, must not be a loss of funding.

These are all fundamental things.

Well, would you blame me for being the First Minister

of Northern Ireland and not trying to get the maximum

out of negotiations?

I'm certainly not going to sell Northern Ireland short in terms

of what I want for the future I'm going to put out the maximum

in terms of the negotiation.

Have you ever had a moment of regret since the vote?

No, absolutely not.

Definitely not.

And that concern that the border could be a catalyst for illegal

activity, you do recognise it could be seen as a sort of gateway,

the point at which people could...

What we are talking about there is in terms of paramilitaries,

in terms of criminality.

We want to ensure we have a handle in relation to that matter.

Can I say we had a briefing from the senior management team

from the Police Service of Northern Ireland just last week

and they divulged to us that 43%, a very specific figure I have

to say, that 43% of organised crime now in Northern Ireland comes

from a foreign basis.

It comes because of free movement of people that has been able allow

those who want to practice their crime to come to Northern Ireland,

and to move very freely with the Republic of Ireland.

So we have to get a handle on that and we have to be able

to deal with that.

Just finally, I want to ask you about some comments

about your Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, who said wasn't

criticising his partners in Government, you, but he did

want to have a gentle conversation on how political unionism could do

more to help are reconciliation.

I wonder if you understand why he says that?

We have taken a decision, in Northern Ireland,

with some very clear rules around respect for the rule of law,

for the courts, for the democratic process that we are to move forward

on our own mandate and that's the only way we should move forward.

But if the Deputy First Minister is going to talk about reconciliation

and reaching out, then I think he also needs to think about some

of the actions that he has taken.

I mean he is talking about a push for a United Ireland.

He is talking to people from Hamas and then he may wonder why people

in the unionist community are a little reticent

about reaching out.

Well, I think there is a need for self-awareness.

Can I ask you - because many people may not know that your father

was targeted by the IRA and the man who was widely assumed to have been

involved, at his funeral, Martin McGuinness spoke,

praised him at his funeral.

We have this remarkable situation, you will remember it,

I think you were eight at the time.

I was, yes, that's right and then later when I was going to school,

because my bus driver was a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment,

the school bus was blown up when I was on it.

All of this is in the past, which is why I'm spurred on to make

Northern Ireland a different place for the future.

That doesn't mean that we don't remember what happened in the past,

because there are a great many people who not only live

with the scars of what happened in the past but actually live

with it every day.

How difficult is it for you then, every day, to work with people,

who were your enemy?

Well, it is difficult and there is no point in saying

otherwise and it is challenging, particularly when you see members

of Sinn Fein meeting a terrorist organisation,

such as Hamas.

It does bring, for a lot of people in Northern Ireland,

including myself, back memories of what happened here in the '70s

and '80s but I use that energy to make sure we don't go back

to the past, to make sure we have a better Northern Ireland

for our children and that we have a very strong,

solid economy that is outward looking, innovative,

and part of the United Kingdom that looks out to the world.

You have admitted that in the past, you used to feel bitter about it.

Are you ever now?

No, I'm not now.

I think obviously as a teenager, when you go through what has

happened in the past, I think we all go through different

feelings at that time.

I mean if someone was coming to murder your father and then blow

you up on a school bus, of course you would have particular

views of these people but we have all signed up to very clear

guidelines in terms of supporting the police service, supporting

the rule of law and what we must do now is make sure we don't go back

to the rule of the past.

And those who are worried about divisions as a result

of the Brexit process, what do you say to them?

I say to them that we are very committed to make sure

that doesn't happen.

We have been through very difficult times before,

Northern Ireland, particularly since 2007.

We have come together.

We have negotiated our way through it.

We did that just last year, in fact, when we had a very difficult

situation and we will do it again because we don't want to go back

to the past.

What we want is a future for everyone who lives here.

Arlene Foster, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

Arlene Foster, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

It is all change for the weather.

After a decided chilly weekend temperatures are heading upwards.

Cold air will be drifting off to the north-east.