Guy Verhofstadt, European Parliament's Chief Brexit Negotiator HARDtalk


Guy Verhofstadt, European Parliament's Chief Brexit Negotiator

Stephen Sackur speaks to Belgium's former prime minister and current MEP Guy Verhofstadt, an EU politician who'll be at the heart of the complex negotiations over a Brexit deal.


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Transcript


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Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen Sackur. Just how ugly is Britain's

:00:00.:00:18.

divorce from the EU going to be, and how damaging for the unhappy couple?

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As British MPs debate the formal triggering of the effort says, my

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guest is an EU politician who will be at the heart of the complex

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negotiations over a Brexit deal. Belgium's former Prime Minister and

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current MEP Guy Verhofstadt has warned Britain to expect no favours

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as it heads for the expert, but how confrontational is he prepared to

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be? Guy Verhofstadt, welcome to HARDtalk. I want to talk about

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Brexit with you but I don't want to start with the detail, I want to

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start with the contest. When the British public voted for Brexit on

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June 23, 2016 Barack Obama was president of the United States. Now

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the White House is occupied by Donald Trump. To what extent do you

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think this fundamental shift in global politics, the most important

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power in the world after all, how important is that as a change

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context for Brexit? I think it gives an opportunity for the European side

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to show and to work on more unity, because lets be honest, what Trump

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has said since now in a few days and weeks is very hostile towards Europe

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and he is saying openly that he thinks that Europe could

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disintegrate further. He thinks more European members of the EU will

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follow Britain out of the door and he thinks it is a good thing. He

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thinks it is a good thing to have a disintegrated European Union while I

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think it is quite the opposite. In fact the interest of the Americans

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isn't in a disintegrated Europe. The interest in America is to have a

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very united European ally. You can only walk on two legs. Trump needs

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an American lake and a European leg. Whatever your sceptical view of

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Donald Trump as president and as an individual, the fact is the European

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Union needs to be closely allied with the United States of America,

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it is a pillar of European security policy. That is what he is putting

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in danger. With respect, so are you. Some of the things you have said are

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actually extraordinary. You have said, you said this yesterday, I am

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quoting you, "Under the enormous political influence of Trump's

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political adviser Stephen Bannon, he sent people to Berlin and Paris to

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prepare the ground for similar referendum as that seen in Britain."

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Yes, exactly. Well, what evidence, you have set essentially he is

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taking active steps to undermine the European Union. Stephen Bannon,

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everyone knows it is an extreme right-wing newspaper he is

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promoting. In fact, extreme right-wing radical views. It is not

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the Drum Administration. You are saying hostile things about this. I

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am surprised you have said it is not the Trump administration. Mr Bannon

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has been appointed as a member of the National Security Council of the

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US. Even outside... You said something that is happening at a

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news website. I think it is maybe not the Trump administration, but Mr

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Stephen Bannon, the special adviser of Donald Trump. We can discuss the

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influence of Mr Bannon on Mr Trump, what I see is what Mr Trump is

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saying. CROSSTALK

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His quotes have been very clear. So I yours. I hope to be clear. That is

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why I am in politics. Normally you have the politics of politicians may

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be here who are trying to escape the question. IMO statements try never

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to escape the question. Yes, lets think about your choice of words. It

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makes it boring, maybe. It makes it fascinating. My view, you say, is we

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have a third front undermining the EU and that is Donald Trump. It is a

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word I am coming back to, hostility. You are downright hostile to what...

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I am not saying I am not hostile. I am only seeing and hearing what Mr

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Trump is saying. OK, let me is plain maybe. I think we have first of all

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the treachery in Europe and a radical Islam, jihadists, secondly

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we have a threat by Putin, the autocrat in the Kremlin who tries to

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divide Europe, already years from now, and now we have an American

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president who is not longer seeing the American unity, the American

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unity as a pillar for his foreign policy. And he is saying openly that

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he hopes for a disintegration of the European Union. So I think we are

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very much alone. I think we are for the moment in an existential moment

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for the European Union and I hope that my response to this is that

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only European unity can be the answer. I am mindful you have just

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written this book... That is my book about it. Europe's Last Chance, why

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the European states, the subtitle, must form a European Union.

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Ironically it is a phrase from the American Constitution. Yes, exactly.

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It will be difficult right now to persuade Europeans that they should

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regard as a model the federal United States of America, but that is

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obviously... It is about Donald Trump now. Donald Trump is the same

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as the American institutions. What I have seen is America after the

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financial crisis was capable to react immediately to the financial

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crisis. The cleaning up of the banks, the investment programme,

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quantitative easing. Well, if I look to Europe, we are not a union, in

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fact. What we are is a loose confederation of nationstates still

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based on unanimity and we are always acting too little too late, for

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example, in the financial crisis, in migration... So this book is even

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more Eurosceptic than all the Eurosceptic books that have been

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published in the United Kingdom. You think the formulation doesn't work.

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It cannot survive. You made an interesting point about the

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importance of nationstates. What Donald Trump is, at a validly a

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self-confessed American nationalists, America first is his

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message and that is a nationalists message, it is echoed across Europe

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in different nationstates where politicians are winning with a

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nationalists message -- avowedly. It is not echoed. It is the opposite.

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It was first born in Europe. Nationalism has been born in Europe.

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Nationalism has not been bought outside Europe. More than that, I

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think it is a tricky thing which is happening. That is that an American

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president is bidding on more nationalism in Europe. You know what

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it means, it is not nationalists based on values, it is nationalism

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based on ethnicity. And what nationalism has done in the last 100

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years in Europe, we all know it! 20 million victims, all of this is

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based on nationalism. So an American President thinking, European unity

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is not necessary, let's go back to national identity, ideas of

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nationalism. That is playing with fire in Europe. This is not America.

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This is Europe. We have the Holocaust, we had... Well, you

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can... I think it is a fair argument. You can cite the events of

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the 1930s and 1940s at me but let's stick with what happened today. Yes,

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but it can come back. Let's look at the context of Brexit. I come back

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to the basic point about the situation today in Europe. You have

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just seem to reason in the White House with Donald Trump talking

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about the state fast alliance between Britain and Europe. You've

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heard Donald Trump saying that he is going to seek a very quick trade

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deal with Britain. Talking in the most positive terms about Britain

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post Brexit. It weakens your hand as an EU negotiator, does it not, that

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Britain is now looking at history close relationship with Donald

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Trump. I am not reasoning in those terms because I know that the

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interest of the UK is more in Europe than in the US. You know the

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figures. You know the figures. 44% of the exports of Britain goes to

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the continent, to Europe. Only 12% goes to the US. So whatever trade

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agreement is made between the US and the UK, the main interest of the

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British industry, the British companies, workers and citizens sits

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in Europe. It is in Europe. And so these negotiations will be very

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important. And I am very open about it. I think that fairness is the

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basic principle we need to apply in these negotiations. So when Theresa

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May says, alongside Donald Trump, that, as you, she said to Donald, as

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you renew your nation, we renew ours, the opportunity is here to

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renew the special relationship, the post EU Britain and Trump's America

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will lead again, your response is? My response was yesterday industry

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is wonderful, I think, I have seen thousands and thousands of people

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not agree with this -- in the street is wonderful. I don't agree in the

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rhetorical or the narrative of Trump. I think it is devastating.

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Also for the American economy. Protectionism, that is also part of

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his narrative, how you can make an agreement between the UK, which is

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an open society who believes in trade, I think, and on the other

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hand an American president who is seeing every trade deficit with

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whatever country as a threat. And there is a trade deficit from the US

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towards the UK. So, good luck with it. I think it is more interesting

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for the UK authorities to work together on a fair partnership with

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the European Union because that is the biggest market for the British

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industry. And I want to tease out what you mean by a fair partnership

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in a moment but before we get to the details on more specific point which

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I think arises out of what we see in the United States and what we heard

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from Theresa May and that is a question about security. We will get

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to economics. On security, you know as well as I do that Britain has

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been a linchpin of Europeans of security, the armed forces,

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intelligence services are superior to most in Europe, if you talk to

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people in Germany, Poland, the Baltic republic, they say we need a

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close security relationship with Britain come what may, whether

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Brexit happens or not. That is also my point. I think we have to discuss

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not only the economic partnership between the UK and European Union.

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It will be necessary, besides that also, to talk about internal and

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external security. What I don't want - it is not my position... Leverage

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to the UK. In a minute. It is what I want to say. I don't want a

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trade-off between the economic discussion we will do and on the

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other hand the question of internal- external security. I don't think we

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can make a trade deal between... Germany has already indicated...

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Yes, but let's be honest the important thing to do on the

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security issue from the European side is to create a European defence

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union as fast as possible. You know the figures. If you don't have

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Britain it would devalue... You know the figures, 4% we spend on

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military. We are only capable to do 10%- 12% of the operations of the

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American army. I am no mathematician. I am a lawyer. I know

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it means, these figures, we are three or four times less effective.

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And why are we less effective first remark we don't have a European

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defence community. We dedicate everything 28 times between the 28

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member states. I think this whole discussion on security, internal and

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external, is a good chance to create finally what we needed to already do

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decades ago, that is to create a European defence union. Right,

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well... That is also in the book. Let's get to the nitty-gritty of

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negotiating a complex deal with the UK honest departure from the

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European Union. Just very quickfire practical questions. You said

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reasonably you thought getting a trade deal in the two years

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timeframe was impossible. You stick to that? I think it is impossible.

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Everybody knows it is impossible. They don't think it is impossible in

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London. If you speak with ministers they think it is entirely possible.

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It is 40 - 50 month. It is not two years. At the end of the process,

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before 2018, we need a consent procedure in the European Parliament

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because it has to give the green light for the final agreement. So we

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are going to start at the end of May, beginning of June, that gives

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us a timeframe of 14 or 15 months. What can you do in this timeframe? I

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think a withdrawal agreement is the first thing to do. Not an easy thing

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I can tell you. To put it in common parlance it is the divorce

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agreement. For the relationship it is the divorce. Then you have to

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define the new relationship in general terms. There is debate about

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whether the sets of negotiations, one on the divorce arrangements and

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one on the new relationship. Take the treaty, Article 50 is clear. It

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says, first of all, start with your withdrawal agreement in the light of

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the framework of the future relationship. So you need to have an

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idea, not more than that, about your To continue... For example, there is

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an FTA, it will take eight years. How many years in your opinion? I

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think the whole period of transition and the period of transition will be

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two years. Besides the two years, we have the 14 or 15 months I'm talking

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about, you will need a whole transition period to conclude what

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will be the final agreement with the UK. That's a realistic timeframe.

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There are cracks appearing it seems to me in the EU position on some of

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the key fundamental positions of a negotiating deal. Use said the four

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freedoms that underpin the single market, they're not going to ever be

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negotiated on and there will be no cherry picking. Others have sent

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signals suggesting there can be sector by sector deals which Wild

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Britain leaves the single market will allow Britain preferential

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access to certain sectors of that single market. Is that possible?

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They will be no cherry picking, nobody of the three institutions of

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the EU will accept that. Mrs May has indicated she wants to go out of the

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union, the single market, the customs union, the court of justice

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and then say, that is a new programme that interests me and that

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is a sector that interests me, that will not happen, sorry, because then

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she has to take the obligations and the payments linked to these

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advantages. You can never create a status outside the European Union

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which is more advantageous than to being a member of the European

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Union. It would not be fair towards the members of the EU and our

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taxpayers. You want to believe there can be no cherry picking but others

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have sent a different message. Even Mr Barnier, who is with all due

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respect more important to the negotiations than you because he is

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negotiating on behalf... He is negotiating and we have to approve

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his negotiations. He is a negotiator and according to a leak the Guardian

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got hold of, he told MEPs that there needed to be a special relationship

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between big finance and the City of London. That has been denied two

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times by Mr Barnier. In the nature of politics he had to deny it

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because it was an authorised to lick. I was in that meeting and he

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never said it was a conference of committee chairs of the European

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Parliament. He never said that. Be assured of one thing, cherry

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picking, we shall not allow. When the German car industry pleads with

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the German government and says, be real, I'm quoting the head of the

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Federation of German industry, imposing trade barriers and

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protectionist measures between the EU and Britain or the two political

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centres, the EU on one hand, the UK on the other, would be a very

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foolish thing to do. That's a German-speaking. I agree with all

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this, I'm against protectionism myself but that's not the point.

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It's not a point about protectionism. The point is, if, for

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example, I think that is still the best option, the UK should ask

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for... To be part of the single market, to continue to be part of

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the single market, at the same time accepting the four freedoms of the

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European Union. The problem doesn't start with the European Union, the

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problem starts with the UK government saying the freedom of

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movement of people inside the European Union, we don't like it

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because there are Polish people coming to work on a construction

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site in London, we don't like it. I think that these people are very

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necessary in the UK economy. You know what the labour mobility in

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Europe is? 1%. You know what the labour mobility in the US is? 10%.

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Ten times bigger. One of the reasons we have 2 million vacancies in

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Britain and Europe is because we don't have enough labour mobility.

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Isn't the truth, Mr Verhofstadt, you take the position you take, no

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cherry picking, no negotiating on the sector deals, you take that

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position because you're deeply insecure. You worry if Britain is

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seen to get a deal that works for Britain and makes the British

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economy successful that it will encourage others in Europe to follow

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Britain to the exit door. You're deeply insecure about the fragility

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of the European Union. The problem of the future of the European Union

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is not so much linked to Brexit negotiations, the problem of the

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future of the European Union is linked to the courage and

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willingness of the European leaders for the moment to go forward, like I

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described in the book, with the unity and integration of the

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European Union, a defence community and economic governance for the

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single currency, and extort border and coastguard so the future of the

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European Union in depends on that. Not so much on Brexit. You've been

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writing books about the need for a federal Europe for a long time.

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Europa United States of Europe in 2006. As Prime Minister. You wrote

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another book in 2009 called how Europe can save the world emerging

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from crisis. You have written these books, which now looked like museum

:19:55.:19:59.

pieces, the world has moved on, Europe has moved on. It's no more

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about union and federation. It's the opposite that is happening, you are

:20:05.:20:08.

laughing a bit about my books but at the same time I was the one who said

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we need a banking union before we can overcome the financial crisis.

:20:13.:20:16.

You agree that the banking union is now in place. How Europe can save

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the world was your title in 2009. Frankly Europe has done nothing to

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save the world in the last seven years. We didn't have the

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institutions on a European level that were necessary. I explained, we

:20:31.:20:35.

are still a loose confederation of nation states based on the unanimity

:20:36.:20:38.

rule where we act too little too late. I have described the financial

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crisis as a typical example of that and I said we need a banking union

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and today we have a banking union. You laughed at me as Prime Minister

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when I proposed a number of initiatives for the defence union.

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Today these initiatives, European headquarters, are on the table. When

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you talk like this, Mr Verhofstadt, you play into the hands of people

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like Nigel Farage, one of the key Leave campaigners, who says you are

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a dangerous fanatic and you have long anti- British. That is complete

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nonsense. I am racing with an old car, it is a 1954 right hand drive

:21:16.:21:20.

Aston Martin, how can you be more British than that? I'll tell you,

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look at your own words, I wonder about your attitude to Britain. You

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said in 2015 according to Politico, the website," Politically the UK is

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already on its way to becoming an adversary rather than a trusted

:21:36.:21:40.

partner of the EU". Certainly that is what Mr Farage is exactly

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standing for. These are your words. When I am attacking him I am

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attacking not Britain, I am attacking somebody who wants to

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destroy the European Union. Europe is on its way to becoming an

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adversary, is that the way you feel about the UK? Absolutely not, what I

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hope is we can find a fair partnership with people like Mr

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Farage, at the heart of the Brexit campaign and looking to destroy the

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European Union, that's my problem and that is what I will fight. The

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thing is, it's not just about Britain. Win you said of the Brexit

:22:18.:22:22.

campaign, you described it as the latest high mass of tribalism in

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Europe. It isn't just actually in Britain where people are expressing

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great scepticism about the European Union, great scepticism about

:22:33.:22:35.

immigration and its effect on Europe. You could look at Le Pen in

:22:36.:22:40.

France and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands. The gap Poland, look at

:22:41.:22:44.

Hungary, so many nations across the European Union -- look at. I don't

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deny these people exist and I don't agree with these people but I can

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tell you one thing, the public opinion in our countries on the

:22:55.:22:58.

continent in the EU is not against Europe, they are against this

:22:59.:23:02.

European Union. That's why I'm saying this book is maybe more

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Eurosceptic than all other books that have been published because I

:23:06.:23:09.

think this European Union will not survive. What you need to do to

:23:10.:23:14.

convince people who are voting today voting for Le Pen offering a vision

:23:15.:23:18.

for the future, showing them unity for Europe can tackle the financial

:23:19.:23:23.

crisis, the economic fallout of it, the migration flows, refugees coming

:23:24.:23:30.

to Europe. Security issues as well. You have been peddling the

:23:31.:23:33.

federalist dream for ten years, at what point do you realise it's a

:23:34.:23:38.

dream and not a reality? The banking union today is a reality because we

:23:39.:23:43.

have pushed for it. I also think tomorrow the European defence union

:23:44.:23:46.

will be a reality because the world is changing and we cannot count on

:23:47.:23:52.

Mr Trump. So it will arrive. IC four example what is happening in France,

:23:53.:23:57.

the French presidency, Macron, you're following it, what he is

:23:58.:24:02.

saying about Europe, a French president saying we don't find

:24:03.:24:06.

sovereignty on a national level, we need it on a European level. Let say

:24:07.:24:10.

a Frenchman was saying that, you need to invite him on as soon as

:24:11.:24:15.

possible. We will get you back to discuss the state of Brexit in a few

:24:16.:24:19.

months or years time. But right now we have to end there Guy

:24:20.:24:24.

Verhofstadt, thank you for being on HARDtalk.

:24:25.:24:32.

It is really soggy outside right now, especially in eastern areas

:24:33.:24:36.

Stephen Sackur speaks to Belgium's former prime minister and current MEP Guy Verhofstadt, an EU politician who'll be at the heart of the complex negotiations over a Brexit deal. He has warned Britain not to expect special treatment as it heads for the exit, but how confrontational is he prepared to be?


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