Dominic Raab MP - Brexit Select Committee, UK HARDtalk

Dominic Raab MP - Brexit Select Committee, UK

Stephen Sackur speaks to the influential advocate of Brexit, Conservative MP Dominic Raab, to discuss the place that post-Brexit Britain will occupy on the world stage.

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The UK Parliament is about to vote on the Government's plan to trigger


Article 50, the formal process which will end in Britain


There's little doubt MPs will give prime minister Theresa May


a green light, but much has changed since last June's Brexit referendum.


The government has clarified its vision of what Brexit means,


while President Donald Trump is shaking up global politics.


What place will post-Brexit Britain occupy on the world stage?


My guess is that today is conservative MP Domin Raab.


Domin Raab, welcome to HARDtalk. You are a Westminster MP who took the


somewhat difficult to understand position of having the right to give


a green light to Article 50 taking the view that that was wrong and it


should not be allowed. I took the view it as did all the MPs who


passed the referendum legislation by 61. We gave this decision to the


English people and by the way all parties agreed to this and having


done that we need to respect it. The committee is scrutinising every


negotiation at their son have any guises for holding up and


frustrating at the verdict by the British people. There will be a


verdict in the coming days in Westminster. There will be a debate.


We know various opposition LPs, Labour 's all Scottish Nationalists,


have various amendments to put forward. It will be a lively debate.


Terrific. The 17th and debates we have had on the Mac. Every Democrat


in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords will have their cards


called. Are we talking about scrutiny all our people frustrating


the wheel of the British people trying to scrap Brexit altogether?


Everybody will be accountable including yourself. One of the


reasons the row so many Remainers deeply bitter is they feel you in


the leave camp never came clean during the referendum campaign about


the kind of Brexit you wanted. Some of the most prominent leaders wanted


an exit which allowed Britain to remain inside the single market and


now that seems to be taken off the table. I think that is almost wholly


wrong. Every time I was asked that question, all of us said... Let me


finish the answer before you can scorn it. We all said and we will be


leaving the EU, wanting to take back control of our borders and when


asked the critical question about the single market we said we would


be looking at the best access but no one said we would remain in the


formal single market. Your version is a very different. Daniel and an,


a senior MEP... Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place


in the single market. Paterson MP, only a madman would actually leave


the single market. One more for luck, Aaron Banks, the biggest


financier of the Leave campaign quote increasingly the Norway option


looks the best for the UK, having access to the single market. It


precisely demonstrates my point... I have given you free quote that run


counter to what you told me. No one is the single member of the single


market. Only a madman... We're not going to leave the single market in


terms of a trading relationship at in terms of being a full member. If


you look at the detailed comments made, not picking a few quote out of


context, time and time again I remember discussing on the campaign,


we all said it is clear you could not leave the EU and by the back


door coming give up control of your immigration policy, and not have


trade negotiations outside of the EU. We said we wanted the strongest


possible access to the single market but we would not anticipate being


formal members. What we now have is that the cliff edge scenario,


something people said Britain should try very desperately not to do.


Explain to me why there is not the grave danger that after the


triggering of Article 50 Britain will be staring over a cliff edge


because there will be no negotiated trade deals and we will go to


default, and to everybody concerned that represent a dangerous cliff


edge. The pessimistic gloomy BBC portrayal saying that we would have


an immediate shock after a Brexit vote, they did not happen. We are


the fastest growing economy for 2016. From Google, the Apple, to


Dyson. Just this week Weetabix extra investment. All valid points but


nothing to do with my question. I waited to address this... But you


shifted the goal posts of chairman. I just conducting an interview. You


cannot include every discussion you have heard over the last year. I am


asking a straightforward question. The forecasts have been demonstrably


proven to be false. There will be a slowdown at the high level of growth


we have at the moment, the fastest-growing industrialised


economy in the world but it will not be nearly as bad as forecasters


predict that. Let's take this seriously, someone like Christian


Forbes at the Bank of England says all the uncertainty that had


the indicators are flawed and from the indicators are flawed and from


the Bank of England to the IMF INAUDIBLE. I have decided you did


not answer my question. The Maltese Prime Minister got to the heart of


this when he said the UK's deal Post Brexit must be worth than the terms


of its membership. We can see no situation where whatever is


negotiated end up being better than the current situation be UK has. You


quoted the Maltese Prime Minister and I will quote... I can quote you


Francois Hollande who has said we will pay. Francois Hollande will not


be Prime Minister when we do the negotiations. There is a range of


different views. From the Spanish Foreign Minister to the chief


negotiator who said on the vexed issue of UK financial services he


has pointed out that given that Britain puts ?1 trillion worth of


Finance into European companies, if we turn around and have a rational


being the differential approach to these negotiations... (INAUDIBLE).


We need to stop talking about detection is an start looking for


the win-win. Angela Merkel, and others, there is a shifting mood in


Brussels and there is scope for a win-win scope. Neither you nor I


know where the negotiations will go. Your vision of what a post Brexit


economy should look like whether or not you get this complicated trade


deal. Wasn't it very interesting when the British Chancellor said you


know what we may well do over the next few years as a result of


Brexit? We make completely transform our economy. Low tax, low public


expenditure, a completely different economy. Is that what you want? I


not sure those were the words of Philip Hammond. I am paraphrasing


but not unfairly. Between the referendum and the negotiations is


to stabilise the economy. That is done. Set out the details of our


plan. The Prime Minister did that with a positive vision of a post


Brexit self-governing democracy, a strong neighbour including on trade


and security, a global leader in free trade and the third thing that


needed to happen was developed unity of purpose amongst the country at


large. Following the Lancaster house speech, the British pub lick 3-1,


backed Theresa May's vision. You talk about public opinion, I just


wonder whether you believe those Brexit voters, let's talk about a


particular place in the North Midlands of the UK, where there will


be a by-election. 70% voted Brexit but do you think most of those 70%


wanted to see a deregulated INAUDIBLE. I think the point is that


Win Win is the speech. Of course, if we do not get a deal, even if the


EU... You think that is what the British people voted for? Let me


finish. Even if we apply external tariffs, we would have to take some


measures to make sure that Brexit the economy can continue to thrive


in one is a question of tax and to retain our competitiveness. You


would have to slash public spending much more than we have seen thus


far. We want Britain to be competitive, that is what attracts


investment and create jobs but these silly caricatures of Britain


becoming the Singapore of the North Sea, I do not recognise that at all.


We need to be brave and go into the negotiations hoping for the best and


bracing for the worst. If you look at that YouGov poll, to the extent


the EU can trust polls, it strong as public support that if the


government did not get a good deal it should not sign up to any terms


that we are offered from rustles and in that sense the British public,


despite the frenzied polarised media debate, is getting the high-end the


Prime Minister. You are taking us dangerously back to the cliff edge.


Let's... I want to specific answers and then to look at the


International picture. What happens to the 3 million also EU nationals


living and working in the UK today? Am very confused by the mixed


signals? I meekly in the referendum campaign


anyone legally in the UK should have their rights protected. They can


stay indefinitely? Those people already here will be able to stay


indefinitely? I think as a moral position but also showing good faith


in these negotiations. It is absolutely the right thing to do.


What do you think of Theresa May's position in moral terms when she


refuses to give that guarantee and says, well, our stance will depend


on how our nationals are treated in mainland Europe. I think we should


fight very hard for our expats and I understand why Theresa May said I


would like those issues dealt with. Or she tried to do, what the


government did, is go to Brussels and say, why not have an early


agreement and push out of their anguish and anxiety European


national space in the UK and the EU and remember it was the EU who said


we cannot get agreement amongst the other 27 for this. It was them who


said it will have to wait until March. We tried to do the right


thing. Do you think some Brexit backers, voters in towns like Boston


and Lincolnshire, who have consistently according to the polls


and anecdotal evidence that their town feels as though they have lost


their culture and identity because so many east European farm workers


are living in that town, do you think they will feel disappointed,


let down, if you are saying to them, actually the status quo as it exists


in Boston and Lincolnshire will have to remain? Certainly not with me or


any of the people in the Vote Leave campaign because we all said that we


didn't think it was right as a basic point of moral ethics to start


deporting en masse people who have been here for a long period of time,


have played by the rules and worked hard. I think it was clear in terms


of what we said during the referendum. It is quite right to try


to secure those rights for expats abroad too. Another specific point


about hard borders. It seems, the Scottish Nationalists are


disappointed with the government stands, that the government isn't


interested in discussing with them the idea that Scotland could remain


somehow in the single market and in the European customs union. But


there is a question of whether in Ireland and possibly Scotland too if


they get their way, there would be a hard border between those nations of


the United Kingdom and England. Will there be a hard border? Look, in


terms of Scotland, it will be icing wrong as a matter of principle and


impossible to enforce. In terms of Ireland there is the Common travel


area and those arrangements existed before we were members of the EEC as


it then was and of course there will be strong bilateral relations to


make sure we don't undermine taking back control of our immigration


policy but without putting up a hard border between the two. Forgive me


but I am not clear, if Ireland is in the single market and customs union


and the UK is not, how can there not be a hard border? We will have


sensible mutual arrangements which respect both sides of the debate. We


had that before we entered the EU so I don't think it is beyond the wit


or man -- of man or woman but we won't have a hard border and we said


that in the referendum campaign and the government says it now. Equally


some of the stuff coming from the SNP is not credible and it is not


just the UK government saying that. The EU has said some of the ideas


about staying in the single market... We have the referendum as


one country and when you do that then you negotiate your


international relations as one country. Let's now look at the


international context in which it is all taken place. June 23 the British


people voted. At the time Barack Obama was president of the Ita


states. Of course today Donald Trump is in the White House and noises


from the White House are very different. You think it makes sense


for Britain to be cutting its bonds and ties with the European Union at


a time when the United States is being led by a man who is avowedly


and proudly nationalist in his economics and his politics? Well,


look, first of all we are not leaving Europe, we are leaving the


EU and we want to remain a good European Neymar and from Theresa


May's visit to Washington you can see even now have that influence can


play out and the opportunity for our European friends, Britain exercising


leverage, and you heard her say not being naive about Putin, and


standing with Britain behind our Nato commitments, that is a good


example, but Britain wants an independent foreign policy and that


means... And to be an independent, self-governing democracy, that means


independent from the EU but we will have a strong relationship with


America, but... Will be? We had a really, really special relationship


with Donald Trump's America? She said to Trump, you renew your nation


just as we renew ours, the opportunity to renew the special


relationship for this age is here, a chance, she said for post-EU Britain


and Trump's election to make America to this, this is a quote, lead


America again. Do you think that with Britain at this moment in


global politics and especially US politics, is in a position and wants


to have that special bond with Donald Trump's America? The special


relationship endures is bigger than with the White House and with Number


Ten, we have trade on values, security, the intelligence


relationship and Nato so it is absolutely right we don't throw toys


at the pan because of a controversial president. We will


double up on engaging. Do you think the public like the fact that when


Donald Trump issued this executive order banning incomers from seven


mostly Muslim countries, Angela Merkel was on the phone within hours


suggesting to the President that this was a big problem and he should


remember what international law says. Theresa May, she was asked


about it, she obfuscated, she didn't address it directly, she didn't want


to condemn the Americans. Do you think the public like where she


stands today? If you look at the two days of Theresa May in Washington,


yes, we want to grasp the opportunities around free trade and


it is great to have a president who want a free trade deal. This is a


president who is avowedly protectionist and says everything he


does will be about America first. What makes you think Britain can cut


a deal when Donald Trump is fanatically in favour of pursuing


only America's interest? All the more the coup it was to be in first


and get the commitment from him. Sorry, what commitment? The


commitment to expedite and have proper working arrangements... On


whose terms? Well, it will be... On his terms! Stephen, come on. Have


you read the art of the deal? It is all about... I am happy to answer


the questions but you have to wait for the answers. It is a good thing.


When it comes to delivering difficult measures, Theresa May did


it in public on Nato and Russia and when she got home yes there was this


furore around the executive order. I think it was divisive and wrong but


because she had been for two days in Washington, because we are engaging,


Boris Johnson got on the phone and it was clear not just for Britain at


40 other countries that dual nationals coming from Britain would


be barred from coming to the US and that is serious statesmanship, not


throwing up their hands in despair, not flouncing off, the Labour Party


position Jeremy Corbyn that we should work or snub Donald Trump but


to engage, take advantage of the opportunities and deliver the candid


advice of a friend and that is what Theresa May did. In the art of the


deal Donald Trump says whether you win or lose in any deal is all about


the leverage you have. When you talk about Britain in a post- Brexit


future dealing with Donald Trump's America all with Xi Jinping's China


or with Narendra Modi's India, all nationalist leaders out to protect


their nation's interest, where do you think you leverage is and how


much has Britain got? Stephen, he goes again, classic BBC, doing down


Britain. LAUGHTER.


I am simply asking the question. Sixth biggest military in the world,


the common language of business, the birthplace of Shakespeare, Newton,


we've got huge things going for us. The network of Commonwealth links


we've got. And you are right that we have to go into these negotiations


whether with China, Brazil, America, doing what normal countries do, to


look after the British national interest but often it will be


looking for a win-win. Sorry but I asked how much leverage Britain has


and your answer included Shakespeare. I mean, is it... You


are asking about Britain as a nation and I wanted to show why we are not


down on our luck as you imply and we have huge economic power, military


high power and soft power and that is why Shakespeare and language and


culture and values comes into it. At the end of the day you are right, we


are the fifth biggest economy, not the biggest but free trade is


win-win, good for Britain, jobs, cheaper prices and also good for


America for the same reasons. And by the way it isn't just about the big


countries. What about the global economy, the poorest countries in


sub-Saharan Africa? Free trade would give them a lifeline opportunity to


gather and gain real genuine independence. It is a great mission


for post- Brexit Britain in the 21st century. For all those saying they


have to review their plans for the present in the UK... Since Brexit,


since the Brexit vote from Dyson to JCB to Apple, Facebook, we've had a


whole string of major international companies who have pledged fresh


investment into the UK. We had Weet-Bix only this week, I am a big


fan of Weet-Bix... It is a really interesting company. They say their


prices have come up because of the post- Brexit economic situation and


the consumer will have to pay and that is something you are going to


have to explain. I will be accountable to my voters in the


normal way. Huge opportunities as Mervyn King said to export more for


Britain. You are right to say there will be inflationary pressure and we


need to look at that and the Bank of England has the tools to keep it


under control. Let's be realistic. Inflation is 1.6%. It is well below


the Bank of England target rate. I don't think it gives you objective


brownies for the pessimism you are expressing. We have to end it there,


but Dominic Saab, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.


HARDtalk's Stephen Sackur speaks to the influential advocate of Brexit, Conservative MP Dominic Raab. The UK Parliament is about to vote on the Government's plan to trigger Article 50, the formal process which will end in Britain leaving the EU. There's little doubt MPs will give prime minister Theresa May a green light, but much has changed since last June's Brexit referendum. The government has clarified its vision of what Brexit means, while President Donald Trump is shaking up global politics. What place will post-Brexit Britain occupy on the world stage?

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