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Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg on HARDtalk. | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk from Nato headquarters in Brussels. | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
The job of Nato Secretary General isn't an easy one, this alliance | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
And achieving that consensus just got a whole lot | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
harder for my guest today, Jens Stoltenberg, Nato's chief. | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
The United States, Nato's dominant member, is now | :00:26. | :00:33. | |
being led by President Trump, who has voiced grave doubts | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
So, will Trump's assent hasten the demise of Nato? | :00:37. | :01:03. | |
Jens Stoltenberg, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:04. | :01:04. | |
Would you agree the presidency of Donald Trump brings | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
an unprecedented amount of uncertainty into | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
Nato is an alliance of 28 democracies and in democracies, | :01:11. | :01:23. | |
With different ideas, different perspectives. | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
And Nato has been able to handle that for almost 70 years. | :01:26. | :01:34. | |
You have 28 members, one dominant member, | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
The United States of America now has a president who, | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
just a few days ago, declared Nato "obsolete". | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
Nato is the most successful alliance in history, | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
because we have been able to adapt to change. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
For 40 years we did collective defence in Europe, deterring Russia. | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
Then we adapted after the end of the Cold War. | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
We projected stability beyond our borders and in conflicts | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
in the Balkans, Kosovo, Bosnia, fighting terrorism | :02:07. | :02:07. | |
in Afghanistan and we are adapting again. | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
Responding to a more assertive Russia in the east. | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
How do you adapt to a US president who believes Nato to be obsolete? | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
What I will tell him and what I already told him is that | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
is that Nato is changing because the world is changing. | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
When I spoke to him, he was very committed to Nato. | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
He expressed a strong support to Nato. | :02:31. | :02:42. | |
I look forward to working with him in continuing to adapt to Nato | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
because I don't see any contradiction between saying that | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
Nato is important but at the same time saying that Nato has to change, | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
I understand but let's engage with what he has actually said | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
to the Times newspaper just a few days ago he said that | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
I'm just wondering how you reacted to that. | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
Well, I will continue to tell the story about Nato | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
and an alliance which has proven, for almost 70 years, able to change | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
Then I will sit down with him and discuss concrete measures, | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
concrete issues where we can do more, where we can change more. | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
And then I agree with President Trump that | :03:18. | :03:19. | |
That is exactly what we have started to do. | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
And we are doing that by addressing issues like defence | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
spending and terrorism, the two main issues | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
We will get to the nitty-gritty of defence spending, | :03:27. | :03:36. | |
fighting terror and strategy, on that front, later. | :03:37. | :03:38. | |
Would you accept that Nato only works if the member states of Nato | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
share fundamental values about human rights, about freedom, | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
Democracy, the rule of law, individual liberties. | :03:46. | :03:57. | |
In our treaty, we mention democracy, individual liberties | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
That reflects the need to protect human rights. | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
Do you believe there is place for torture in a security policy? | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
No. I'm opposed to torture. | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
Torture is against international law. | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
All Nato missions and operations activities are conducted in | :04:26. | :04:27. | |
When Donald Trump says he absolutely believes that | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
waterboarding, for example, works, how do you respond to that? | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
I've seen his statements, but I've also seen that there is a debate | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
I also saw that President Trump stated clearly that he would consult | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
with the Defence Secretary and with the CIA director. | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
They have both expressed strong... Resistance. | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
In your view, was he right or wrong when he said waterboarding works, | :05:00. | :05:09. | |
he said that other people in his security establishment | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
I'm asking you about Donald Trump who is now the president | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
of the United States, he's the leader of the | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
most important member of the organisation. | :05:24. | :05:24. | |
And I express my opinion and the opinion of Nato | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
and I tell you what Nato do, what we do in our operations. | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
How damaging is it for Nato, which is a 28-strong alliance | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
which purports to represent key values, how damaging is it | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
when Donald Trump makes, it seems, a case for torture. | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
It has happened before that there are discussions between allies | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
How damaging is it, Secretary General? | :05:50. | :06:00. | |
But the important thing is what we decide, the conclusions | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
that we draw and President Trump made it clear that he would not make | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
any decisions about waterboarding or torture before he had consulted, | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
and he mentioned the Secretary of Defence and the CIA director. | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
They have expressed that they are against waterboarding and torture. | :06:17. | :06:18. | |
All of our operations are conducted in line with international law. | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
Torture is against international law. | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
That's my position and I will convey that position very clearly. | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
I'm wondering, again, how you respond to things | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
that the new United States President has said. | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
Donald Trump has said with regard to the American invasion of Iraq, | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
"It was a terrible mistake for the United States not | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
to commandeer the oilfields and take that resource from Iraq". | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
He's also said in the past that he will consider recognising | :06:57. | :06:58. | |
Are these values that you believe represent Nato's values? | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
To accept, for instance, the annexation of Crimea will be | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
against Nato values and clear Nato decisions. | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
Again, we have seen many times before that, especially | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
in election campaigns, but also after election campaigns | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
The important thing is that Nato, again and again, have been able | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
to reach a consensus, to make decisions together. | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
What you seem to be saying is that you desperately hope that | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
many of the clear statements Donald Trump has made about global | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
security policy are not what he's going to do. | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
Because if they are what he's going to do, you've got a grave problem. | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
We are still in the early days and the important thing | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
is now that we sit down, all the Nato leaders, | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
that we consult, that we discuss the issues where we have different | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
And, once again, proove that we are able to reach common conclusions | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
I maybe be misreading you, but in your answers to me, | :08:03. | :08:14. | |
I sense a certain degree of apprehension, worry, | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
about what Donald Trump is bringing to the table? | :08:17. | :08:18. | |
I am actually very confident that President Trump | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
and the new administration, they are strongly committed | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
Because they see that a strong Nato is not only good | :08:27. | :08:35. | |
for Europe but it is also good for the United States. | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
Two world wars and a Cold War have taught us that stability | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
in Europe is also important for the United States. | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
They know that the only time Nato has invoked Article 5, | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
our defence clause, was after an attack | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
Hundreds of thousands of European soldiers, including many | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
from the United Kingdom, have been stationed and have been | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
fighting, in Afghanistan in a military operation | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
that was a direct response to an attack on the United States. | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
In the United States, they know that Nato is important also for them. | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
I'm sure you have seen Theresa May's words in the United States | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
just a short time ago where she said we... | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
She's talking about the US-UK relationship, "we will no longer | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
undertake foreign military interventions to remake | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
Now that, to me, sounds like a major strategic rethink, | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
Yes, and it is also in line with the thinking in Nato. | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
Because Nato has, of course, has to remain able to conduct big | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
combat operations out of our own area like we have done | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
But her words are precisely saying "no longer will we undertake | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
the sorts of foreign interventions like Afghanistan, like Iraq". | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
That is the history, that is not going to be | :10:02. | :10:03. | |
There is a big differs between Afghanistan and Iraq. | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
Afghanistan had a clear UN mandate and Nato operation. | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
With respect, hang on, hang on, she says "we will no longer remake | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
Right now, today, as we speak, you and Nato are spending billions | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
of dollars with hundreds of personnel continuing to be | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
to be in Afghanistan, to, as you put it, "train, | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
advise and assist the Afghan military in resolute | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
What on earth are you doing there if you are not trying | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
to remake Afghanistan in the image of Western values? | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
First of all, the UK is very committed to our | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
I've spoken with Prime Minister Theresa May and she and I, | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
we very much have the same approach to how we can strengthen Nato | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
and project stability beyond our borders, | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
without deploying Nato troops in big combat operations. | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
But deploying Nato troops to train, assist and advise local forces | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
Are you not, to use her phrase, trying to remake Afghanistan | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
Isn't that what the Afghan operation was about? | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
But the character of Nato's presence in Afghanistan has | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
completely changed from a combat operation to a train, | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
assist and advise, meaning that we are there now to enable | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
the Afghans themselves to fight terrorism. | :11:26. | :11:26. | |
To stabilise their own country and I really believe | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
that in the long run, the best weapon we have against | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
I know that the UK is absolutely behind that idea of fighting | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
terrorism not only by deploying our own forces but more by enabling | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
local forces to fight terrorism themselves. | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
This is the message she conveys and I absolutely agree with her. | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
A general point, did you see just a few days ago | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
that the Doomsday Clock, which is supervised by a very | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
reputable bunch of scientists, the Bulletin of Atomic | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
It's an indication of how close they believe us to be | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
They put that clock forward to two and a half minutes to midnight | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
because they said they had considered Donald Trump's election | :12:14. | :12:15. | |
comments, they considered his comments on nuclear weapons | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
in particular and they considered the global security situation. | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
And Trump's comments on climate change and all in all, | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
And I don't see any imminent threat for a large-scale war | :12:29. | :12:44. | |
The main reason why Nato is strong is that we are able | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
We have a strong, collective defence in Nato. | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
It is not to provoke a conflict, it's not to destabilise, | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
I understand it, I know what you want Nato to be doing | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
but I'm asking you, time and again, to consider | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
This is what the former Nato Ambassador from | :13:07. | :13:16. | |
the United States, said the other day. | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
"We are now entering an upside down world, | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
Donald Trump is more critical of Nato, the EU, Germany, | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
Germany, all close allies, then he is and has ever been | :13:27. | :13:35. | |
of Putin and Russia, that is an upside down world". | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
We are seeing clear statements from President Trump | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
but also his security team, that they will remain | :13:41. | :13:42. | |
You're ignoring all the other comments from Trump? | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
In addition to that, we see that words are followed by deeds. | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
They are now deploying forces, new US forces, to Europe, | :13:51. | :13:52. | |
Those were all decisions taken under Barack Obama. | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
But it has strong bipartisan support from both the Republicans | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
And they have promised to continue to follow up on, for instance, | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
I promised you we would talk specifics about some | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
of Donald Trump's particular grievances with Nato. | :14:14. | :14:14. | |
He says "we are getting ripped off by every other country in Nato". | :14:15. | :14:27. | |
He says "unless countries front up and pay the required 2% of GDP | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
on their military spending, the United States will consider | :14:31. | :14:32. | |
consider walking away from the Nato alliance". | :14:33. | :14:34. | |
Right now only five countries meet that 2% threshold, | :14:35. | :14:36. | |
that means Nato is in grave danger, doesn't it? | :14:37. | :14:52. | |
Well, what we have seen is that Nato allies in Europe | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
have started to increase defence spending. | :14:56. | :14:56. | |
How much is Germany going to be spending in the | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
next financial year on its military as a proportion of its GDP? | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
That's almost 50% below what Donald Trump says | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
they have to spend, if he's not to consider walking out of Nato. | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
I agree with President Trump that European Nato allies had to spend | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
I agree with President Trump that European Nato allies have to spend | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
more, that's the reason why I increased defence spending, more | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
investment in defence has been my main message since I took over. | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
What is your message to Chancellor Merkel? | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
It is that Germany has to spend more and that the good news is | :15:26. | :15:33. | |
that they have decided to increase defence spending | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
and had started to, and for the first time in years | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
we saw in 2015 that the cuts stopped, and 2016 we | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
These are being words for years and years, | :15:43. | :15:56. | |
I've been coming to Nato for years, and heard Secretary Generals | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
tell me that we will get to the 2% threshold any | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
If it doesn't happen now, Donald Trump is clear | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
that the US will not keep paying for other people's bills. | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
The big difference is that for many years we | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
have decreased tensions, and defence spending went down. | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
Now tensions are increasing again and we | :16:24. | :16:25. | |
need to prove that we are able to increase defence spending. | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
Nato leaders made the in September 2014 to stop the cuts, to | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
gradually increase funding and to | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
How worried are you by the Russian threat to | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
We see a more assertive Russia, we have seen | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
a significant military build-up but we don't see | :16:49. | :16:50. | |
Nato has responded, that is the reason why we have | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
for the first time had troops in the eastern part of the alliance. | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
We have increased forces so we can respond rapidly if needed. | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
We do more exercises, we respond also in cyber and other domains. | :17:07. | :17:08. | |
But we don't seek confrontation with Russia, | :17:09. | :17:10. | |
we don't want to renew the | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
Cold War so we combine strength and a firm approach with open | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
Donald Trump has described Vladimir Putin as smart, talks | :17:16. | :17:27. | |
about his admiration for him and said I start off inclined | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
to trust both Putin and Merkel, but let's see | :17:31. | :17:32. | |
There is an equivalence in his view of Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin. | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
Do you see Putin as smart and admirable? | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
I met Putin many times, and I have been able to | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
do deals with the Russians and the Prime Minister and I think | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
one of the lessons I learned from being a | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
politician is that it is possible to have a pragmatic | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
It is possible to be a neighbour to Russia as long as you are strong, | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
as long as you are firm, as long as you are | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
And that is what Norway has been able to be, | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
not in spite of Nato but because of Nato. | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
So I believe this dual track approach, | :18:15. | :18:15. | |
strong, predictable, but at the same time open channels for political | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
communication, for dialogue, to try to find ways | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
The question is whether Nato is really offering a deterrent | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
A study by the Rand Corporation recently said Russia | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
could overrun Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in three days. | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
What kind of deterrent are you really offering? | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
I think that 70 years of Nato has proven that we are providing... Why | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
thank you talk about the past but I'm talking about the present and | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
future. But we have proven in almost 70 years we are able to provide | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
credible deterrence. Estonia's Prime Minister doesn't believe that, he | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
has demanded that Nato troops be permanently stationed in his | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
country, are you prepared to axe it to that request? We are now | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
deploying four battalions. Including one to Estonia led by the United | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
Kingdom. That will be a presence. That is a few hundred troops. Around | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
1000 troops. Do you know how may troops the Russians can call upon to | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
be in the Baltic states in no time at all? Hundreds of thousands. Why | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
invoking national presence in the Baltic countries, that sends a very | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
clear signal that an attack on one of the Baltic countries will trigger | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
a response from the entire alliance. On top of the increased military | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
presence, we have established new high readiness forces, which can be | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
deployed very quickly if needed, to reinforce. This is part of a chain | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
of different elements which all adds to much higher readiness and | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
increased collective defence, the biggest enforcement of collective | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
defence of the end of the Cold War. Cyber security, not least because of | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
allegations about Russian interference in the US election, | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
there is a big focus on cyber security, in Germany, too. Where | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
Angela Merkel said she believes the Russians are interfering in German | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
politics. Is Nato, in any sense, prepared for the systemic, organised | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
cyber security attacks would may come from countries hostile to the | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
Western alliance in the future? Yes, we are. Because we have invested a | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
lot. We have strengthened our cyber defences a lot over the past couple | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
of years. We have seen that the cyber threats poses a new challenge | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
for the Nato alliance. And for the member countries. Do you buy the | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
intelligence services in Russia or authorised from the very top, | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
according to US intelligence chiefs, Russia has been responsible for | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
systemic hacking in the United States? In Germany, as well? Of the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
politics of those countries? Because if you do believe that, and | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
presumably, right now, your mindset is to view Russia on various | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
different fronts as "The enemy". I trust the reports we have seen from | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
many national intelligence services, including from Germany and the | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
United States and others, that Russia is behind many of the cyber | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
attacks. We have seen the same pattern against, for instance, | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
Nato's own cyber networks. That's the reason why we are stepping up, | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
for instance, we have decided to establish cyber as a domain military | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
operation, alongside air, land and sea. In a sense, these are hostile | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
acts from the Russian state against your members states and indeed | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
against Nato's organisation itself? Yes. And we have seen the same | :21:50. | :21:58. | |
pattern, we saw it in 2007. We saw a very big attack against Estonia. | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
That was one of the reasons why we started to strengthen our own cyber | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
defences. Which brings me back to where we began an Donald Trump host | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
of Donald Trump admires Putin, says he is smart, says that working | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
closely with Putin would be an asset to the United States. I come back to | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
Ivo Daaler's point, this is the world upside down. He has expressed | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
strong support for the transatlantic partnership, for Nato. We will sit | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
down and work with each other on how we can continue to strengthen and | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
adapt to change the security environment. The final point is more | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
philosophical, Donald Trump is quite plain in his approach. It is all | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
about America first. He is, and I don't think he would mind me saying | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
it, a nationalist politician. We've seen nationalism on the rise in many | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
different countries, one can certainly say Vladimir Putin is a | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
nationalist politician. In this contest context, the emergence of | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
nationalist leaders who put their countries first, what role is | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
therefore a collective cooperative organisation like Nato? -- in this | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
global context, the emergence. Strong Nato is in the interest of | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
the United States. To have stability and peace in Europe. We have seen | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
that for the United States it is a great advantage to have friends and | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
allies. I will tell all the Americans I meet that you have to | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
make sure that you see the value of having close and good friends and | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
allies as you have in the north Atlantic. And if they don't? I am | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
certain they will, partly because they have expressed strong support | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
of Nato and partly because they have learned the lessons from two world | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
wars and the Cold War that Nato is also important for the security of | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
North America. And partly because they are now increasing their | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
presence, the US presence, with troops, equipment, repositioned | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
supplies in Europe to make sure the transatlantic bond remains strong. | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
Jens Stoltenberg, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
you. | :24:05. | :24:07. |