Forest Whitaker, Actor HARDtalk


Forest Whitaker, Actor

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Now on BBC News, it's HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi, from the World

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Economic Forum in Davos.

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My guest is humanitarian, activist and Hollywood

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actor Forest Whitaker.

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He's probably best known for his Oscar-winning role ten years

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ago as the Ugandan dictator Idi Amin in The Last King of Scotland,

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and he's remained deeply involved with Uganda through his work

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with the Whitaker Peace Development Initiative,

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which helps young people living in communities affected by violence

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across several continents.

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He's also a special envoy for UNESCO and a member

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of the UN's advocacy group on sustainable development goals.

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But can celebrity activists like him be real agents for change?

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Forest Whitaker, welcome to HARDtalk.

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It's great to be here with you.

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Now, in your acting career, you've been a very,

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very versatile actor.

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Mainstream, popular films like Rogue One: A Star Wars Story,

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and also The Great Debaters, back in 2007, about black students

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striving for equality.

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Mm-hm.

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Do you like to act in any genre of films?

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I'm trying to continue to grow as a person,

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so each character is an opportunity for me to understand

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a different part of myself, a different part of humanity.

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So what happens is that I don't necessarily repeat the same roles

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because I'm continuing to search, to understand and deepen who I am

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as a person and an artist.

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Do you believe that film can really create a dialogue

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and help bring about change?

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Because you're a very committed social activist.

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For instance, you've been in rather gritty roles.

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You played a gay character in Pret-a-Porter.

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And also, in two of your films as Director, which are

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Waiting To Exhale and Hope Floats, you dealt with issues such

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as divorce, abandonment, adultery, that kind of thing.

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I mean, I think that we hope the film can lend a lens or a mirror

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to our inner thoughts and our inner understandings.

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I think that I've done a number of films...

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We have another production company and we do produce films.

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A lot of those films are with first-time film-makers.

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Unique, individual voices.

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We did one a few years ago called Fruitvale Station,

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with Ryan Coogler, that Nina Yang did with me.

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And that film was dealing with Oscar Grant and his being

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murdered in the BART station in San Francisco.

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Whereas I've done comedies where I've introduced,

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like Linda Mendoza, she did something called Chasing Papi.

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And that was her first film but, you know, just supporting these

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new voices and supporting her as a film-maker and as

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a female film-maker.

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But do you think that your films can kind of act as a catalyst

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to generate debate and perhaps to bring about change in mindsets?

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Certainly, I think that as the film I was talking about was put out

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at the conclusion of the trials that were going on with Trayvon Martin.

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Um, the films that we did before, we did a film on Vietnamese refugees

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that created a new dialogue with the director, Tim Linh Bui,

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about what had happened when they were here in

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the United States during that time.

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I think a lot of the films that even as an artist,

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as an actor let you delve into the dialogue of race

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and understanding and the movement, or the growth of the entire country.

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I think it was just a dialogue about what had happened

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during the country's time and what it was reaching for.

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The sort of sense of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

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You are...

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You won numerous accolades, awards, including Oscar for Best Actor

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for your portrayal as Idi Amin, the Ugandan dictator,

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in The last King of Scotland.

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Is that a film you're proud of?

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Yes, I gained a lot from that film as an artist and as a person.

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Er, I had to do so much research to try to understand this

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particular character.

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I had never been to the African continent up until that point.

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That was an opening for me.

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And I had been charged with the notion that

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I was from there, so I needed to understand what it

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felt like in some ways to actually be African,

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not African-American, you know?

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And that was a challenge.

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The challenge of understanding the historical relevance

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of what was going on with him during that time and all

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the countries in that region, you know, and the attacks that

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were going on, the colonialism.

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All these things were opportunities for me to continue to grow.

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I had to learn a new language.

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I was working on Swahili, so I could actually speak

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in the film in that language and be able to improvise a little

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bit in the language.

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I had to learn musical instruments because that was one of his things.

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It was like a party in a box, this accordion that he was playing,

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it allowed him to create a party wherever he wanted.

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It was certain qualities of his personality that were interesting.

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Very taxing as well, you had to put on 50lb, didn't you,

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to take the role on, something like that?

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You must have been eating a lot, Forest, in the run-up to that!

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Yeah, well, during that time, I just kept eating.

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So as an African-American going to the continent

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of Africa for the first time, what did you feel like

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when you first landed in Africa?

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Did you feel like, a sense that you'd come home?

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Did you have any kind of affinity?

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Because I acquired a deeper feeling of that the more I was opening

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myself to understanding things.

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At first, you get a general feeling of the air,

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the place and the people.

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They were very generous, the Ugandans were very

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generous to me that I met.

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But then something happens as you start to eat the food,

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you rest on the side of a road, riding motorcycles

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through the streets.

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I tried to experience as much as I could to help me understand how

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to project this in a truthful way.

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You were quoted in the New York Magazine in 2006 saying -

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Idi Amin was responsible for major atrocities, but he also

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reshaped opportunities for people in his country.

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He was a person who was colonised and he stood up to colonialism.

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And he was demonised for many things, but partly for standing up.

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Sounds like you perhaps somewhat admired him?

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I didn't admire the atrocities that he did, as far as the many deaths.

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Although if you examine the historical reference,

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you'll see that the person behind him committed more murders

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and the person before him has committed more murders.

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It doesn't make his right, it's just curious as to why he was so focused

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on during that time.

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I think certainly, he was trying to bring a sort

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of sense of nationalism.

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He kicked out the West, which was unusual for someone

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who was from the continent.

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It's not a question of, like, trying to act like he's

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some form of a hero, it's a question of just, like,

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looking at the references and seeing the different things that affected

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the people and changed their sense of identity.

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And he did, like, have some influence

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on changing their identity.

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You said in general about empathising with characters

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that once you understand the patterns that shape a person,

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how can you not find sympathy?

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Does that apply to somebody like Idi Amin who,

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as you say, committed, and we know, many atrocities?

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I think in some ways, I guess very strongly.

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Because at first, you just look at what is projected of him

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and you have to try to go to the source of -

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what would make him become that?

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What would make him commit 300,000 murders?

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What would allow him to do some of the atrocities that occurred?

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You're asking for understanding, though, for somebody

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who was a very brutal dictator.

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I'm not asking for understanding for him, I'm looking

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for humanity in who he is.

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I think we have to look at humanity.

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We have to be able to stand in each other's shoes and understand

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that the way we behave is based on the different structures

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or things that happened to us as we grew up in our lives.

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And so my philosophy as an artist is, I look at every character

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and I try to understand them, I go to their core.

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Pulling away the different experiences of their lives.

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Pulling away the different pains and understandings,

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until I get to the bottom.

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And at the bottom of it, I believe we are all connected in some way.

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At the bottom, there's just a flame that is connected to everybody.

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And then you put those things back up on top of that character,

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that person, and that forms him.

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And then you can see a person who did atrocities,

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who did horrible things, but you do try to go

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for understanding.

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The perceptions that that film raised about Africa -

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I want to tell you what a black British film critic, Vanessa

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Walters, wrote in the Guardian.

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She said, "The fact that Amin killed many of his people,

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does that give carte blanche to the film-makers to play

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to some of the worst stereotypes of corrupt,

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murderous, incompetent and ridiculous black leaders?

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Africa is presented as a place of violence

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and superstition, ruled by fear."

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How far do you believe that's true and, if so, does it worry you?

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I mean, I think that certainly because the continent is really

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diverse and so there's all different types of stories and many of those

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stories need to be told, you know, from different ways of life,

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different types of characters who make up that continent.

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But I think that if you look at, historically, this particular

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character and what he did in his life and the things that

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happened, then you have to, like, deal with the truth of what that is.

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It doesn't mean...

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Because I think the movie was somewhat about colonialisation

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and what colonisation did, and I think that was looking at,

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painting that picture that he was created.

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He was a soldier who was famous for fighting with the Mau Maus,

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and they took him.

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He wasn't choosing to be a President.

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They took him and said, here's this opportunity,

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we'd like you to become President.

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We will use you as a puppet to deal with our needs.

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But unfortunately for them, he chose not to take that path.

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OK, but doesn't it play to the negative stereotypes

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of Africa, which is the point that Vanessa Walters is making,

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do you accept that there's soem truth in that?

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I can say that...

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Does it play into that?

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I think that in this particular story, I think it's trying to stay

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pretty true to what was occurring during that time.

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The things you were talking about.

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When you were referencing Idi Amin, you said all kinds of atrocities.

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You had no sympathy for him, you were discussing all these things

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and asking me how I could have any feeling about him.

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That was your point of view.

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Yeah, that was.

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You know, so I'm saying that, yes, that that may exist.

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And I think, yes, more stories need to be told, you know,

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that deal with the African continent that show the uplifting stories,

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that show the lives, the joys and all the things like that.

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That's one of many stories.

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It's just one of many stories.

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What does the film tell us about Hollywood?

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Because the story is related through the eyes of a young Scottish

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doctor who goes to Uganda.

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I tell you what the veteran film producer Joe Pichirallo says,

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in general: "The bottom line is that the major studios want

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assurances that film projects have the potential to attract

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a significant white audience."

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Um...

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So they've got to go through the eyes of a white doctor.

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I mean, I think that has been the case at different times and it

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continues to be that way at certain times.

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In the case of that, it was based on a book, you know,

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and so it was following that particular book.

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As a general point, though, do you think it's valid?

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As a general point.

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At times, it's been extremely valid.

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I think it continues to be.

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I mean, we're looking at a system where 30% of the leading

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characters in films, minorities, are people of colour.

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But in reality, it's 40% of our population is that.

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So there's a disparity.

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And so there's this question of economy, there's a question

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of why you make which film you make.

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And sometimes, I think the studios themselves have made this assumption

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that in order to make a film be successful, in order to make

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the monies that they need to make, they needed

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to have a white protagonist.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I'll put to you some figures.

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In 90 years of the history of the Academy Awards,

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under 15 men and women of colour have received Oscars

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for Best Actors.

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And as you know, in 2015-2016, there were no nominations for black

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or non-white actors, and that made directors

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like Spike Lee and other people boycott the Oscars.

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Have you received short shrift in Hollywood, do you think,

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as a result of your colour, or are you just one of the success

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stories who's swum against the tide?

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Um...

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I think in the first part of your statement,

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I think certainly, there are disparities that have happened

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with artists who have not been recognised for their work at times.

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You know, and I think it's still being worked on.

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It's even being worked on by the Academy to make it more

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inclusive, to make more people of colour, different people

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from different cultural backgrounds and different

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languages come together.

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For myself, it's difficult because I had a particular reason

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why I was becoming an artist.

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At the time when I was becoming an artist, I was using it

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as a window for me to be able to understand humanity in some way.

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So even if I had roles, it might not make me satisfied.

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I may be doing something that everyone would laud

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and would say was great, but maybe it didn't create a great

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individual journey for me.

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Now, I've had the opportunity to have really, really interesting

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journeys and different characters and stuff.

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Perhaps atypical at times, and becoming more typical,

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you know what I mean?

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But I want to ask you about that because one role that you did take

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was, you played a cop, a policeman, in the TV

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series The Shield.

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And you grew up, you were born in Texas, but you moved to LA

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when you were four years of age and you lived in a fairly

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segregated neighbourhood, and you talked about how you saw

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acts of police brutality, even against members

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of your own family and friends and so on and so forth.

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So then how did you feel about acting the role of a policeman?

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Again, I think each time, it's an opportunity to try to, like,

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understand more about that situation, understand

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more about myself, understand more about people.

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So if I'm playing a police officer, I get the opportunity

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to walk in their shoes, to try to understand their purview

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and understand that particular person individually.

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It's not...

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I can't say it's difficult to play a police officer.

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Maybe I have certain reactions to police officers personally

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because of experiences that I've had.

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Maybe it put a charge inside of me at times because of things I've seen

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or because of the way I was brought up, you know.

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That's still things that I'm working on as a human being.

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But playing the character was another opportunity

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to try to understand humanity.

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And for me, that is the goal, that's the goal.

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But I mean, we've seen obviously the Black Lives Matter campaign

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and even big stars like you are...

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For instance, I'm thinking of the case when in 2013,

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you walked into a New York delhi and you were wrongly

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accused of shoplifting...

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Yeah, stopped and frisked.

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Yes, you were stopped and frisked.

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I mean, what does that tell us about race in America today?

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I mean, certainly, I mean, we're looking at all the...

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Talking about Black Lives Matter, talking about what sort of came out

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of as statements about, against what was happening

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inside many different communities, where people of colour

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were being harmed or hurt by state officials or police,

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you know what I mean?

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And the profiling that goes on with them, in Stop-and-Frisk

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movement and stuff, it makes a statement about, you know,

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the nation, how far we still need to go.

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I mean, certainly, I think a young black teenager is, like,

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20 times more likely to be killed than his white counterpart.

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So certainly, we have things that we need to be

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working on, you know?

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You campaigned for Barack Obama in his presidential bid

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and you said back in 2008, "I can feel a tide of

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change in the country."

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Did it come?

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I think that there is still a tide of change.

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I mean, to try to act like we haven't had great progress

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as a nation and culturally is not true.

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I mean, we're coming from a situation where originally,

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we came to the nation as slaves.

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Now, the head of our country, the President, President Obama,

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it's a long journey, so to act as if we haven't

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moved anywhere...

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But he himself said...

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It doesn't mean we don't have places to go.

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Look, I think Martin Luther King was saying we're owed...

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It's a promissory note that's been given to us.

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That promissory note was for life, liberty and happiness.

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We have not achieved that, so until we truly achieve that,

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then we haven't become the America that we say we want to be.

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Living up to our Constitution or our Declaration of Independence,

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we're not living in that.

0:16:520:16:53

But he didn't do very well on race, did he?

0:16:530:16:56

I mean, even in his final speech as President, Barack Obama

0:16:560:16:59

said: "After my election, there was talk of a

0:16:590:17:01

post-racial America.

0:17:010:17:02

Such a vision, however well intended, was never realistic

0:17:020:17:04

for race remains a potent and often divisive force in our society."

0:17:040:17:08

The fact that there was this first African-American President didn't

0:17:080:17:10

really change things on the ground, did it?

0:17:100:17:12

And in that sense, it failed.

0:17:120:17:14

No, I don't think he failed in that respect.

0:17:140:17:18

I think he moved forward a conversation, moved

0:17:180:17:20

forward an understanding.

0:17:200:17:20

It changes the psyche of the nation and the psyche of,

0:17:210:17:24

in some ways, the world.

0:17:240:17:26

Like I say, we're working on making those things stronger.

0:17:260:17:29

You know what I mean?

0:17:290:17:34

But to act like he hasn't succeeded and to act like that doesn't exist

0:17:340:17:38

and to act like there isn't some success is incorrect

0:17:380:17:40

because it's the truth.

0:17:410:17:42

So Donald Trump, of course, in the White House and 88%

0:17:420:17:44

of African-Americans who voted in the presidential election voted

0:17:440:17:47

for Hillary Clinton.

0:17:470:17:48

Only 8% of them voted for Donald Trump.

0:17:480:17:50

Does that worry you, then, that he's not going to be

0:17:500:17:53

a President for all Americans, in particular African Americans?

0:17:530:17:57

Well, that certainly remains to be seen.

0:17:570:17:59

I'm hopeful that he's going to be a President in the end

0:17:590:18:02

who represents all the constituency, who represents the people

0:18:020:18:04

of all cultures, races, of sexual preference, of immigrants.

0:18:040:18:14

Are you optimistic about that?

0:18:140:18:16

Optimistic?

0:18:160:18:17

I can't be optimistic, based on some of the statements

0:18:170:18:20

that have been made.

0:18:200:18:22

Which statements worry you in particular?

0:18:220:18:25

Well, there's a lot of statements, you know what I mean!

0:18:250:18:28

There are loads, yeah!

0:18:280:18:31

Yes!

0:18:310:18:31

And so there's concerns, but then we have to come

0:18:310:18:34

to the table and try to find some common ground and hopefully

0:18:340:18:37

push forward the agenda.

0:18:370:18:43

It doesn't look good, though, does it?

0:18:430:18:45

I mean, he's taken a swipe at what he's called

0:18:450:18:48

'liberal Hollywood'.

0:18:480:18:48

We saw the attack he made on Meryl Streep after she criticised

0:18:480:18:51

him at the Golden Globe Awards.

0:18:510:18:53

Uh-huh.

0:18:530:18:53

So he doesn't like 'liberal Hollywood'.

0:18:530:18:55

That's got to include you, doesn't it?

0:18:550:18:57

I mean, it won't stop me from doing the work in the manner in which I've

0:18:570:19:01

been doing it for years and continuing to try

0:19:010:19:04

to strive forward.

0:19:040:19:05

You know, I'm hopeful that we will be able

0:19:050:19:07

to be a nation that's, you know, united.

0:19:070:19:09

Right now, we've been a nation that's been polarised.

0:19:090:19:12

And before that, we had a lot of questions.

0:19:120:19:14

And I think there's a lot of people who are doubting that

0:19:140:19:17

we're gonna move foward, you know, in a positive way, but we

0:19:170:19:21

have to try to push it forward.

0:19:210:19:22

And if it doesn't happen, then the people themselves have

0:19:220:19:25

to stand up and speak.

0:19:250:19:27

If it doesn't happen, if they're not being respected,

0:19:270:19:29

not being treated well, their needs are not being met,

0:19:290:19:32

then they have to stand up - whether that's in protest movements,

0:19:320:19:35

marches, however - to make their voices be heard.

0:19:350:19:37

Mmm.

0:19:370:19:38

What is more important to you, your work as an actor

0:19:380:19:41

or as a humanitarian activist?

0:19:410:19:42

I mean, my work as a, you know, humanitarian work

0:19:420:19:45

is particularly important to me.

0:19:450:19:46

I think at the kernel of it, I'm always trying and striving

0:19:460:19:49

to understand humanity and make sure that I see myself in others.

0:19:500:19:53

And if I see myself in someone else and they're struggling

0:19:530:19:56

and suffering, then I'd like to take up that mantle to try to heal that.

0:19:560:20:00

Your Peace % Development Initiative works a great deal with young people

0:20:000:20:04

affected by violence.

0:20:040:20:05

In particular, young people, children who were forced to work,

0:20:050:20:08

to fight as child soldiers - which, of course, we've seen

0:20:080:20:11

in Uganda, as well as other parts of the world.

0:20:110:20:21

Er, I don't address it just by dealing with child soldiers.

0:20:210:20:24

I've been working with child soldiers.

0:20:240:20:26

There's 250,000 child soldiers in the world, you know.

0:20:260:20:28

I started working initially in Uganda with child soldiers.

0:20:280:20:31

We started working in the South Sudan on our

0:20:310:20:33

Youth Peacemaker Network to deal with peace and reconciliation

0:20:330:20:41

and development, and so we've been training youths in that way.

0:20:410:20:44

We started first in Jonglei State because we thought the conflict

0:20:440:20:47

might happen there.

0:20:470:20:48

We wanted to hopefully help stabilise the country if it did.

0:20:480:20:51

And it did happen, and that was the place

0:20:510:20:53

where the conflicts happened.

0:20:530:20:57

But the youths that we have trained have acted as a sort of early

0:20:570:21:01

warning system to help each other get to safety.

0:21:010:21:03

So that was very powerful and that's what they did.

0:21:030:21:06

Developing these countries is such a huge, huge problem.

0:21:060:21:11

You can help the young people, but where are the jobs for them?

0:21:110:21:14

Even if you get them an education, quality education, there's no

0:21:140:21:17

gainful employment for them and so on.

0:21:170:21:19

So it must make you feel very frustrated that

0:21:190:21:22

despite your huge efforts, you still sometimes see

0:21:220:21:24

that there isn't as much change on the ground as you would like.

0:21:240:21:31

Um, yes, certainly, I mean...

0:21:310:21:32

Look, where you deal with a situation like in South Sudan

0:21:320:21:35

where people have been, you know, the civil war's been

0:21:350:21:38

going on for a long time, there's 50,000 deaths, there's...

0:21:380:21:41

I don't know, 2.9 million people displaced.

0:21:410:21:42

A million people displaced.

0:21:430:21:45

One million are refugees and two internally displaced,

0:21:450:21:47

and the United Nations is saying that five million people don't have

0:21:470:21:51

enough food or are in need of humanitarian assistance.

0:21:510:21:53

Exactly.

0:21:530:21:53

And that's nearly half the population.

0:21:530:21:55

Exactly, but are we to not, like, try to move things forward

0:21:550:21:58

and help the equation because of those atrocities?

0:21:580:22:00

Of course you help...

0:22:000:22:02

No, but I'm saying that what we've done is worked with the youth,

0:22:020:22:05

training them in that area.

0:22:050:22:06

Those youths that went out into the community and trained

0:22:060:22:09

others in those areas.

0:22:090:22:10

And in our space, you know...

0:22:100:22:12

Because as you say, it is a really difficult situation,

0:22:120:22:15

but they have managed to be able to help during the situation as

0:22:150:22:18

peace builders, as peace mediators.

0:22:180:22:19

I mean, one of our youths, like, went to get the army

0:22:190:22:23

to move out of a school, in order to bring the

0:22:230:22:26

children back inside.

0:22:260:22:26

He was able to accomplish that.

0:22:260:22:28

One of our youths has been working on policy.

0:22:280:22:31

He was accepted as a member of parliament.

0:22:310:22:33

A lot of these different things are going on.

0:22:330:22:40

There are, like, all these development projects that

0:22:400:22:42

they're still doing, even during this time of really

0:22:420:22:44

major atrocities and different difficulties that are going on.

0:22:450:22:47

Well, a lot of worries about South Sudan, as you say.

0:22:470:22:50

You have met President Salva Kiir of South Sudan and also his

0:22:500:22:53

erstwhile deputy Riek Machar, who now leads the Sudan People's

0:22:530:22:56

Liberation movement in opposition, the main rebel leader.

0:22:560:22:58

Mm-hm.

0:22:580:22:58

The rivalry between them is so personal, there are those

0:22:580:23:01

who argue that there will be no peace in South Sudan until both men

0:23:010:23:05

are no longer on the scene, acting politically.

0:23:050:23:07

Um, I don't know.

0:23:070:23:08

I think that recently, I think it was in December,

0:23:080:23:11

they started a dialogue for reconciliation in the country

0:23:110:23:13

and I'm hoping that it will be inclusive, this national dialogue,

0:23:130:23:16

and that everyone will be included and they'll be able to move

0:23:170:23:19

through it and talk through it.

0:23:200:23:23

Otherwise, there are a lot of players who are trying

0:23:230:23:26

to people find common ground, to be able to do with the situation.

0:23:260:23:29

It's like any other situation of this magnitude.

0:23:290:23:31

Can activists like you really be agents for change?

0:23:310:23:34

I mean, I think that we all can be agents of change if we,

0:23:340:23:38

like, decide to stand up for certain things.

0:23:380:23:40

Certainly, like, we've been working in this area.

0:23:400:23:42

We have thousands of youths in the Protection Civilian Camp

0:23:420:23:45

that we work with - 3,000, I believe, at the moment.

0:23:450:23:48

You know, we're about to go into a refugee camp where we'll be

0:23:480:23:51

working with about 10,000 people.

0:23:510:23:56

So certainly, we're dealing with the situation, building

0:23:560:23:58

community learning centres across that state,

0:23:580:24:00

eastern equatorial state.

0:24:000:24:01

So certain things are happening during this time of difficulty,

0:24:010:24:04

during this time of really painful recognitions.

0:24:040:24:05

Forest Whitaker, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:050:24:14

Thank you.

0:24:140:24:15

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