Husam Zomlot, Advisor to the President of the Palestinian Authority HARDtalk

And the Daily Mail takes up that issue too -

claiming tens of thousands of crime suspects are on the loose

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

For years, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been stuck,

condemned to repeat itself year in, year out.

The two protagonists remain deaf to each other's demands,

but there is a new US president, who seems to care little

for Washington's long established quest for a two state solution.

Well, my guess is Husam Zomlot, adviser to the Palestinian authority

Does the Trump era signal the end for the Palestinian

Husam Zomlot in Ramallah, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you, Stephen, thank you for having me.

Mr Zomlot, you are relatively young for a senior figure

Most of your adult life you have lived with the Oslo peace process.

Are you prepared to acknowledge today that for all intents

and purposes, that notion of an Oslo peace process is dead?

First of all, thank you for the compliment,

Believe me, when it comes to the Palestinian authority,

Your leader's 81, most of your senior officials are in their 70s.

I understand your relative theory, but I also witnessed the Oslo

Witnessed the demise of the implementation

I think, if you are talking about the process itself, yes,

All along, since 1997, we should have had a state

according to the Oslo accord, Israel should have withdrawn

from all the territories it occupied in 1967.

In fact, what happened ever after was the deepening

of the occupation and the spread of the colonial settlements

and the besiegement of the people in Gaza and what have you.

You are right, the process has failed miserably to deliver

the outcome and to many, many people, it was a process

actually designed to prevent the outcome, process

that was going in the opposite direction.

But the hope and the aspiration and the goal of two states,

a state of Palestine under the 1967 borders, the hoped-for two states

that live in coexistence and peace with each other and form a bridge

between East and West, is a hope that remains very firm

in the hearts of the millions of Palestinians and Israelis

and remains to receive the international consensus,

has been seen in the last UN Security Council resolution

But you can't hold onto hopes that are unrealistic, that's not

If Oslo and that means of getting to a two-state solution is dead,

maybe you should regard it as a healthy tonic, in a way,

that America's new president Donald Trump said, and of course

you know these words well, he said, "I'm looking at a two-state

And I like the one that both parties like.

So in other words, we now have a new situation.

We have an American president who, first of all, doesn't seem to care

very much about what happens in Israel, Palestine.

And simply leaves it to the parties to get on with it.

He doesn't care if there's a two state or not.

In fact, he'd take a one-state solution?

Stephen, we'd like to hear from President Trump

what he exactly means by one state solution, really.

This is rather interesting, we want to listen to this proposition.

All what we had is this one sentence and this is in complete

Our future hangs on this one sentence.

The PLO official, the Palestine Liberation Organisation official

platform, until 1988 was one Democratic state for

all of its citizens, in the historic land of Palestine

But that platform had to be compromised simply

because there was a condition by the international community.

In fact, by the Reagan administration on the PLO

that we must abandon our dream of a one Democratic state,

diverse and respecting the rule of law for all of its citizens

And we did respect that condition and we endorsed

the two state solution, according to the US

and international requirements for peace.

And you know, it took us so many years to get to that national

equilibrium here in Palestine to establish a national consensus

on the two state solution and on accepting and recognising

Before we jump into another conclusion, we have too

The one state solution was always a nonstarter in Israel.

Israel has totally, utterly rejected such a proposition.

I'm going to stop you because you are raising

ceremony different points, all of which are important

about internal politics in Palestine, because you claim

you reached a consensus, which of course you haven't,

because that's why Gaza and the West Bank are so deeply

divided politically, so we'll get to that later.

But one thing at a time, let's stick with Trump,

because he is the new actor in all of this.

You are about to go to Washington to be the new Palestinian ambassador

in the United States, representative in the United States.

The chief Palestinian negotiator said the other day,

nobody in Washington will talk to you Palestinians.

He said we've sent letters, written them messages,

they don't even bother to respond to us.

That must worry you that the Trump team do not seem to be interested

OK, maybe that statement came out before we actually did have

communication with the Trump Administration.

There was a very senior Palestinian official delegation visiting

Washington only a few weeks ago at the top level.

And there was also very senior American delegation

from the new Administration, one of the closest associates

You are telling me, oh yes, don't worry, we've got the contacts.

Look, the truth is Binyamin Netanyahu has already had a very

cosy meeting with Donald Trump at the White House.

Just tell me, what's the extent of the direct personal contact

between Mahmoud Abbas and Donald Trump?

This is a new Administration, Steve and this new Administration,

by the way, is still in the making, it's not even completed yet.

This Administration also has no fully fledged policy,

it's not really formed its policy about Israel, Palestine...

I just asked you a direct question, what is the direct answer?

The direct answer, we expect a relationship and we expect to be

invited to the White House and the State Department,

We have been a close partner of the US for many, many years.

The long held US policy is very well-known.

The huge investment the US has made with us and our investment

towards this relative stability is something neither us nor the US

is willing to forego and therefore we do expect that.

We're not the exception, by the way, we are the rule here.

Let me say this sentence, most of all leaders did not

have the chance to talk to President Trump.

Binyamin Netanyahu was the exception there and Binyamin Netanyahu misused

that one ear that was given to him and misinformed the American

president he wanted to legitimise his illegal settlement activities.

He did not get that and it was clear that President Trump

asked him to back off, to stop his settlement activities.

He wanted President Trump to announce the abandonment

And all that President Trump said, that he's fine with the two

solutions and we want to hear from him more.

And thirdly, he wanted President Trump to announce

the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem from Tel

Yet, we still have a second year of President Trump and we very much

look forward to giving him the reality, the truth and the logic

All I can say is, you do seem to me to be a wild optimist,

because you seem to think the Americans are in listening mode

You just touched upon a very important point, the US Embassy,

currently, of course in Tel Aviv, as all international embassies are.

Now, Donald Trump has made it plain he will seriously consider the idea

of moving that embassy to Jerusalem, even though it seems to have been

But, what we do know for sure is the man picked to be the next US

Ambassador to Yemen Israel, David Friedman, not only intends

to work out of Jerusalem, he's that very plain,

he has a house in Jerusalem, he's also very closely tied

to the settler movement and sits on the board of one of the NGOs that

backs one of the settler blocks in the West Bank.

And he's going to be the next US Ambassador in Israel.

So, when you go to Washington and you think you can reach out

to the Trump Administration, it's going to be awfully

We realise all what you are saying and we are worried, indeed

we are worried about some of these signals.

But we might not be the strongest party in this world,

definitely as Palestinians, but we are certainly the strongest

President Trump has already said he is seeking the ultimate deal

and he even continued saying, for the sake of humanity,

and he even said there are two sides to this.

Having said there are two sides to this, having said there is little

land left for the Palestinians, that is President Trump

we are waiting to give him the other side of the story,

that's number one, it's very logical.

Number two, because we are invested in peace and because we have heavily

maintained the situation at the expense of our own

And because the US knows that, we are actually the ultimate

partners, if he is seeking the ultimate deal.

And there will be in no deal without us and yes,

this is not being optimistic, this is being realistic

For instance, about the embassy, we did formally, in a letter

by the President, President Abbas, send to President Trump outlining

the danger of such a move, how destructive it would be

So we're not sitting still, we are waiting, we are preparing,

we are engaging and we would like to have the best case scenario.

But should the worst case scenario happen,

we are also here to make sure our issue remains to be

respected as an international consensus and our rights enshrined

Yes, we are not existentially worried.

OK, you are not existentially worried, but let's stop talking

about Trump for a moment and talk about your strategy,

And I think most Israelis, as well as people around the world,

are recognising this is one of the most right-wing governments

in Israel's history, if not the most right wing.

Your boss, Mahmoud Abbas, said many weeks ago,

he said if Israel pushes ahead with this legislation

to legalise settlements built on private Palestinian land,

then he would cut security cooperation with Israel.

Well of course, that Bill has now passed and as far as I can see it,

Mahmoud Abbas has no intention of making good on that threat,

No, you are missing something because I think that decision

was made, and it was even made by the PLO Central Council,

and now it has been approved by this very legitimate sort of Parliament

for all Palestinians for the executive branch

Remember, Steve, the issue of security is not just an Israeli

demand, it's not just an Israeli interest, it also Palestinian

interest and we don't want to see a situation here where we have

groups and agencies from all over the region, and you know

what is happening around us, just 300 kilometres all around

and we want to make sure we deliver such a policy at the right time.

Forgive the interruption, but if I may tease out what you seem

to have just said to me, your priority is more in keeping

a lid on Hamas in the West Bank than it is on ending security

Hamas is in Gaza and is in full control of Gaza.

No, but it is the West Bank we are talking about,

you need the Israeli security cooperation in the West Bank to help

you keep yourselves, Fatah, on top in the West Bank,

we don't want to be maximalist at this point in time,

we want to make sure that while we retain position

and keep our achievements, national achievements,

Therefore, we will choose, the president will choose

the right moment to end, not only security cooperation,

but economic cooperation and reformulate our relationship

Well, I want to talk economy just briefly, if I may?

You say, yes, we will and security and economic

I would put it to you, you can't afford to.

First of all, you need the Israelis to hand over the customs

and the border revenues that come to you through the Israelis.

And if you lose those, you are in even worse

economic circumstances than you are in right now.

Also, the tens of thousands of Palestinians who either work

inside Israel, on the other side of the green line, or frankly,

let's be honest, thousands of Palestinians work on building

sites and construction building the very Jewish settlements you say

If you stop all of those people doing those jobs,

If we are going to accept substitute liberation and independence

of our own sovereignty, with pieces of bread being thrown

on us by the Israeli occupation, the whole situation will continue.

The socio-economic situation in the West Bank and Gaza is simply

unprecedented in terms of how deteriorated it has been.

All economic indicators show some sort of an economic,

Let me give you some numbers very quickly,

Because of us having to work in Israel, not

Our population is around 12 .7 million.

We have 95% literacy and we have 70% under the age of 29.

This is a very useful, very educated society.

And we have very wealthy, natural re-sources.

Yet, our GDP, I am talking 2015, just quick numbers, is $12 billion,

Our per capita is 2800 compared to 36,000...

You don't have too persuade me that in terms of economic power,

in terms of political and military leveraged, you Palestinians cannot

Believe me, you don't have to persuade me of that.

My question to you is, why do you fail to actually make

For example, let's move on to talk about politics

Why is it that President Mahmoud Abbas has so little credibility,

a Palestinian opinion poll showed that the majority of

He hasn't won an election for what is it, at least a decade.

Most Palestinians see the Palestinian authority as corrupt.

Well, I can understand there is a need to renew

In fact, as we speak now, the government has confirmed

the date of the local government elections, which is a very important

We want to respect our own election process and its duration.

Now, for the President, you know he was elected

democratically and we are one of the very few nations in this

region that really do adhere to the democratic processes.

Forgive me, when you're mandate lasts for years,

when you're mandate lasts for years and it was achieved 13 years

ago, you don't have any legitimacy any more.

We do have legitimacy because President Abbas

is the president of the PLO, of the Palestine Liberation

Organisation, which is much higher, even than the PA.

The PA was only established to fulfil our responsibilities

under Oslo, which Israel has failed miserably.

He does have the national legitimacy.

The question is, does he want elections?

I can assure you, in his name now, should he decide to run this

Forget about the polls and these agendas you have quoted,

in the end he was voted by Fatah only two months ago

Hang on, you've just said something outrageous.

You asked me a question, Stephen, let me answer it.

Fatah is the biggest, according to all polls,

Fatah is the biggest Palestinian political party.

It receives more than 35% in all opinion polls.

Should Fatah nominate Mahmoud Abbas to represent it

in any national elections, I see you, president Abbas

Congratulations, you've just told me to ignore opinion polls

and you proceeded to quote me an opinion poll.

So let me quote you an opinion poll in return, from a leading

Palestinian polling organisation, they matched Mahmoud Abbas

against Ismail Haniyeh from Hamas in a head-to-head race at the end

of last year, they asked Palestinians across the territories,

Gaza and West Bank who they'd vote for and you know what,

by a couple of percentage points, Haniyeh came out on top.

No, no, we're not worried and we don't know did the polling.

Should Fatah decide, we know the numbers,

The Gaza, I went to only a few days ago.

You know, it showed a very clear message to me personally,

that they would like Fatah and president Abbas and the National

What they've suffered from in the last decade

Their only destination is a united Palestinian front.

Only three years ago we completed a celebration of Fatah in Gaza.

1 million took to the streets, 70% of Gaza, it is recorded

in an all international media, if you want to follow it.

Now, president Bass decided not to convene national elections,

elections for the president because he does not

want to give a stamp of approval for the division.

He does not want to institutionalise the division.

He wants Hamas to accept the elections in Gaza,

otherwise our national project would disappear and therefore

what is important, what is more important?

This is not fearing or overstaying the welcome

I understand all the arguments you come up with.

The one message I had from Gaza is we must convene election,

invite Hamas to accept the local government elections.

Invite them to accept the national elections and we are even willing

to go in one joint list with Hamas, if Hamas fears to lose

elections or fatter fears to lose their elections.

That might be a bit more convincing to the outside world if fatter

and that Palestinian authority in the West Bank didn't keep

locking up opponents, didn't keep depriving people

like Mohammed Dahlan, he is an opponent within the PLO...

You know, Dahlan and his people say it's time for new leadership.

You guys have refused to countenance new leadership

Steve, we have politics here, believe me.

And we have a partisan movements, history.

This is not about individuals and names and this is not even

People think we Palestinians can just you know, decide whatever

There is so much to do in terms of our internal arena

and the Palestinian people historically, would not accept

the present without being elected by the people.

There has to be elections and his own movement would have

Final thing, we are almost out of time.

You know what was interesting that came out of the Trump team recently,

the US, UN ambassador, Nikki Haley, she said you know what,

it is time for all sides in Israel, Palestine to think outside the box.

In this interview, I feel we've gone through the same old issues that

I've talked about with officials in Fatah and the PA

Tell me one way in which Palestinians are thinking

Well, thinking outside the box maybe happens in academia,

but in our situation, given that calamity of the Israeli

It's very clear, they want full annexation of the West Bank.

This is not what I'm saying, this is what they are saying

You've just quoted some of the bill is passed.

We are witnessing on a daily basis here in the West Bank

Now, if this is their agenda, by the way part of them pushing Gaza

out of the equation, so there annexation

And if this is the situation, the last thing you want is to give

that agenda another whip in to advance.

Steve, the whole situation here is that of a system of entitlement.

These people, some people in Tel Aviv right now,

the government, the right-wing extreme government, wants

to keep a system whereby there is a group that our privilege,

Some groups are privilege and others that are not privileged

and discriminated whether by means of occupation or by means

of colonisation or by means of apartheid.

The question to the US ambassador in the UN,

what does thinking out of the box mean?

Thinking out of the box means that we will accept a one-man,

one vote and there will be one Democratic state.

We are happy to think about it and discuss it.

Does this mean ending Israel's occupation and establishing

We are happy to proceed with you as partners.

But if this means we will continue being treated as slaves

in our own land and we continue to put up again some people

who argue that God is an estate agent and God chooses some people

at the expense of others, if the whole thing is to greet us

as visitors in our own land, we will continue to reject

and struggle and continue to garner international support and national

building, because we have invested so much to remain

steadfast in our land and build our institutions, Steve.

And at that point, we have to end this interview, we are out of time.

But Husam Zomlot in Ramallah, thanks for being on HARDtalk.

Well, a very blustery night out there for some of us,

The weather is going to be quite changeable for the rest of the week

and into the weekend, quite a bit of rough weather out there across the

Atlantic, weather fronts making a beeline for the UK but Thursday

actually overall