Moïse Katumbi - DR Congo Opposition Politician HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.

The President of the Democratic Republic of Congo, Joseph Kabila,

has been in power for 16 years, and should have stood down

at elections that were due last November.

Still no elections are in sight and opposition leaders are growing

increasingly frustrated. My guest today is opposition

politician Moise Katumbi. Is effectively in exile in Europe,

so what can he achieve that this distance? -- at this distance.

And has the opposition been outmanoeuvred by President Kabila?

Thank you. December the 31st last year, a deal was hammered out under

the auspices of a group of powerful Catholic Bishops in the DRC. Does

that present a way forward? There should be a transitional

administration, pending elections to be held in 2018, Joseph Kabila won't

stand. Yes, we know that deal, which the argument with the Congolese

government and the opposition, supposed to serve the country. So

far the agreement is dead. President Joseph Kabila doesn't want, really,

to make the application of the agreement. So really, everything is

stuck at the moment. The court is that group of Catholic Bishops. At

our understanding is that the son of the late Opposition Leader, who died

in February, should be the Prime Minister in that transitional

administration. Is that something that the opposition will accept,

including new? I agree for him to become the Prime Minister, and all

the opposition, the majority agree for Felix, and to replace his father

as president of the community following the election. But no word

yet from Joseph Kabila on whether he would accept that? No, Joseph Kabila

is playing tactics at the moment. The agreement is very clear. There

are some in the opposition, it is not up to even them. It is not up to

President Joseph Kabila. You know, with the death of Tshisekedi early

in February, this veteran Opposition Leader, really respected by so many

people, politicians and ordinary folk in the DRC, and when he died, a

human rights advocate said with the death of Tshisekedi, the opposition

has lost its unifying force, and could shatter. He has got a point,

hasn't he? No, I don't think so. Because President Tshisekedi really

was the first Opposition Leader in our country, and ourselves, we need

to take care about what President Tshisekedi left. At the moment the

opposition is, there is a big unity in the opposition, and we are going

to do all our best to change the face of our country. We need a

strong opposition, not fighting opposition. A strong opposition,

though? Is Felix Tshisekedi really the man to fill his father's shoes

as a possible prime minister in a transitional Administration? He has

got no ministerial experience. People talk about him being rather

naive. No, it is not true. You know, first, Felix Tshisekedi was not

chosen by the father. By different party politics,... But just because

he has the Etienne Tshisekedi name. It is not because of the Etienne

Tshisekedi name. Etienne Tshisekedi had a lot of children, only Felix

was interested in doing the politics, and is somebody... I went

as a governor, I had never been in politics, and Felix was in politics

a long time in the opposition with his father. I think he is going to

be the Prime Minister. Why President Joseph Kabila doesn't want Felix,

because he is not somebody of good word. So you mentioned when you are

governor, that is when you were governor of the province from 2007

to 2015. We will come to that in a moment. Here you are I think this

should happen or that should happen in the DRC, but can you have any

influence when you are in Europe? You are currently based in Brussels,

effectively in exile. Yes, you know, my exile... I am in exile, and still

waiting for the country, waiting also on the unity of the opposition.

And going all over the world, I travel almost every day, I am in the

plane, to go and fight my country. To talk to the people, today the

killing is too much in my country. There is really a lot of killing

going on in the east of the Congo. There is no rule of law in my

country at the moment. That is between the various militia groups

and forces opposed to the President, and so on, in the east of the

country? No, I think the killing is coming from the government soldiers

at the moment. Killing innocent girls, that is why we need the

international investigation. But here you are, though, saying all

these things should happen and you have been chosen as the presidential

candidate in elections whenever they take place by G7, which is a group

of seven opposition parties, and in addition to that more parties have

rallied behind you in the opposition, something like 20 are

backing you. But you are still out of the country. So really, shouldn't

you be there? Why aren't you going back to the DRC? I want to go back

as quick as possible, to go back to my country. The time I wanted to

come back, they took me to court began in my country, to say I have

stolen something. Which is ridiculous. It is a plot against a

candidate. Joseph Kabila is scared for my return to the Congo, because

he knows it is his end and I am a candidate, I am going to go back as

soon as possible. You have been saying that for a while. And of

course, you are talking thereabout your supporters, saying there was a

trumped up charge of your selling a property illegally in the capital of

Katanga, and you were sentenced to 36 months in prison, and you say

that is not the case, it is just a fake charge. But there are other

things being said about you, that you were plotting against Joseph

Kabila, that you hired mercenaries, and isn't there an investigation

going on at the moment into what you might have done? You know, all those

are fake stories. Because President Joseph Kabila is scared. I am the

only one Joseph Kabila is getting today. He doesn't want me to return

back in the Congo, because I did a really good job, and why the other

political parties chose me as their candidate? Because I did something

wonderful when I was governor. They changed the economy of the country

and the economy of the province. The time I became governor, the province

of Katanga had only $180 million per annum. I left over $4 billion. So

really, at the moment, when I left, before I resigned, the Budget was $9

billion. Today the Budget is not more than $3 billion per annum. So

you point to these achievements, and there are independent observers who

say that you did accomplish a great deal when you were governor of

Katanga, but can you translate that kind of popularity on a nationwide

basis? Because you don't make that many appearances in the capital, you

didn't when you were in the DRC. How good is your ling gala, by the way?

My Lingala is quite good so far. It is not that great, though? I speak

very fluent Lingala, very fluent Lingala I speak. The point I am

making is that that is the language of the north-west and your power

bases in the south-east. Do you have nationwide appeal? The nationwide

appeal, I am all over all of the provinces and if you go in the

different provinces where I was not as a governor, people need me.

Because they saw what I did in the Katanga province, the changes which

did my province, and really, I think if I didn't have a good result as

governor, I would not be supposed to stand. People want me coming in

because today people are suffering, people are dying. The economy is a

big disaster today. No security in the country. Sure, that is the case,

but can you do all of that without a party? You don't have a party. I

want to be independent because I want to unify everyone. Even the

people from the majority, the time I am going to win the election, they

have to work with me, the opposition, everyone. We needed to

make a country our great country. But you need a party for that, don't

you? What is your base? I know that you own a very popular football

club, and there is talk of you perhaps opening up a new satellite

TV station, but what is your base? You know, my base is firstly the

people of the Congo. All the Congolese people, they don't belong

to party politics. There are some people which, they don't know what

is party politics, and I've got a lot of party politics supporting me.

So I know longer belong to one party politics. I want to belong to the

Congolese people. Having said that, you were a member until September

2015 of the ruling party, the people's party for democracy, the

party of Joseph Kabila, is that in the elections in 2006 as a deputy in

the national Parliament, you won that election. So you are associated

with the very person you now say you are opposing. Yes, you see, I was

with President Joseph Kabila. If President Joseph Kabila... The time

I went to see him in 2014, and explained to him the respect the

Constitution, if President Joseph Kabila respected the Constitution, I

would not be supposed to leave because at the moment he doesn't

want to organise the election. President Joseph Kabila is betraying

the people of Congo. So I didn't want to betray the people of Congo.

That is why I went to see him, and explained to him, said, Mr

President, you have two terms. We need to respect the need for our

country to have more investors to come in our country, and people to

give us their trust. And they need to have a good partnership, also,

with the international community, and the Congolese people. You know

how many people died before we had our first election? Over 3 million

people. So I think it is a sad story. President Joseph Kabila is

supposed to leave by a big door. Now I don't know if he is going to leave

by a small window. But the point making here is that there is a lot

of talk in the DRC other rich and powerful elites. And really, one

could ask you whether you are worried about the perception that

you are a member of that rich and powerful elite. Because, for

example, you co-founded and CK, the mining company for Katanga,

controlled by your wife Karen. So like you concerned that people might

think Moise Katumbi is another rich and powerful politician? I think

what is making a difference, my father was a businessman. I had a

business before I entered politics. When the party of President Kabila

asked me to join them I was a businessman. I had all my things,

and I sold MCK to a French company. It was a company which was doing

well. I started a company when I was very young. He entered in business

when I was 18 years old. I worked in a different country, I was in

Zambia, and also emerald mining, still my son is running that

business. So I sold all those things. A transport company, and I

don't refuse my past. President Trump comes from a business

background, and presidents in Africa come from also a business family.

No, but I am just putting it to you that, for example, I will give you a

quote from a human rights group, global witness, which said in 2006,

admittedly before you became governor of Katanga, that the

profits of mining in Katanga are serving to line the pockets of a

small but powerful elite, politicians and businessmen who are

exploiting the local population and subverting natural riches for their

own private ends. So that is the kind of thing that is being said.

The report is from before I became governor. I don't have any money.

Make company is moving equipment, not mining. But for the mining

business. And for transport which since 1974, it was a family

business. It is something which I had before and it is sad for me. I

didn't want to join politics. I wanted to continue with business. I

worked and it changed things. When I went to the province, I went with my

money, I went with my knowledge as a businessman. Supposed to defend

first my family, myself and other business community which I did in

the province, became the first and best province in all of Congo. I was

just giving you the things that were said at about rich and powerful

business people in the PRC. He said that within 2006 but Kofi Anand,

former Secretary General of the UN, he is a member of the Africa

progress panel and he described the world of mining in the DRC is a

world in which vast fortunes seem to be cumulated at the expense of the

people. Again, do you feel uncomfortable a bit that you are

involved one way or another, transportation or whatever, in the

mining business? It is not the governor of the province that gives

the licence. Is the minister. I was not involved. At the time I was in

business, I was not a politician. My father was not a politician. I come

from a family which worked and the people appreciated to have a

governor. I came into politics to help the people. I never got my

salary in politics. I was giving to all the poor people the contribution

about the social programme in my province. All right. I have to put

to you a strong criticism. From the Paris-based human rights group. He

alleges that patronage was rife during the two B's government. He

didn't run the province like a statesman but rather like the head

of a household. -- Moise Katumbi. Why President Kabila doesn't want me

to go back because the people want me to go back. The time I became

governor, I was in a maize meal. It was a $45. When I was a governor, I

went in agriculture, a did all my best to do road, everything, school,

from $45 amazed went up. Since a left, and maize shot up to $50 per

bag. Now we have a police guy who is getting $60. How can you manage to

buy at bag? You need minimum of two bags. When I was governor, maybe he

didn't follow. You can go onto YouTube to follow in Paris, you can

ask the people in Katanga. I did a lot of road, a did a lot of school

and I think in all my country, everyone was asking for Moise

Katumbi to go in all the province to stay. They asked resident Kabila for

me to go in each province six months and showed the governors how to do

things in the province. So you say that's the reason why President

Kabila doesn't want you back in the country. You left last year. You

said yourself that you are essentially forced into exile. There

were also reports in the press that you might have been poisoned one way

or another, that your health had been compromised. You up to this

fight? At the moment fine. In my country, I don't know which place I

was poisoned. What kind of poison? I can't talk about detail on the TV. I

talked about it in the report from my doctors, everything. I went under

treatment but because I don't know the guy, I can't tell you who

poisoned me. I forgot about this because I suppose to already passed

away. At the moment what is important for me is my country, is

to serve that country and to remove all the suffering from the people of

Congo. And your health is not being compromised, you are fit enough for

this fight? I was playing football two days ago. With your football

team. The point I am making here is the director of the Congo research

group at New York University, he says the two biggest figures were

Etienne Tshisekedi and Moise Katumbi. Now Etienne Tshisekedi is

dead and Moise Katumbi is in exile. That really leaves the opposition

weekend. President Kabila has outmanoeuvred you. I was in exile. I

think I was number one candidate in exile. Because of my job which I did

in my country, they tried to accuse me and insult me every day on the TV

so they can finish me politically which they can't do because what I

did for my brother's Congolese, I did a great job. I want to go back.

Finish with my report or I will go back and I announced myself I will

go back with the body of Etienne Tshisekedi. You will go back with

his body? You mentioned CENCO. They are conducting an investigation into

whatever charges the government is bringing against you. Will you abide

by their verdict, whatever it is? Ryan Bowen to agree. Moise Katumbi

is not a man looking for a job. -- yes, I am going to agree. When there

was this agreement, there was first some recommendation for the people

which was one of the condition for me to go back from exile. Before

they signed the agreement I said no, I don't want to stop the country

because President Kabila doesn't want me to go back. What is

important for me is first of the country. Let's sign the agreement, I

love my country, I want this agreement to go and President Kabila

doesn't stop up till now. He is making tactics to go to the

referendum. But that is why he is out manoeuvring you. That's what I'm

saying. When will you go back? You said you might go back with the body

of Etienne Tshisekedi. One month? Two months? Three months? I gave a

condition. I said to Moise Katumbi --I said Moise Katumbi to be

supposed to take my case. -- CENCO. A am waiting for that report as

quick as possible. I am going to go back because I am innocent. The

people killing in Congo and the people stealing in Congo, they are

supposed to be in jail. Two thirds of the 80 million population in the

DRC live in poverty. 5.4 million have died when the war started in

the 1990s. You mentioned the continuing violence. He said back in

March 2013 that you had no political ambitions. At the end of my term I

will return as the manager of a football club. I will return from my

job. What changed your mind? I was thinking President Kabila was

supposed to leave power to respect his second term. He didn't respect

it and I after Dwight. The majority of the people came to see me. --I

ask why. I resigned as a governor so President Kabila wanted to continue

to change because to Chuxi. I said for that... That's why you wanted to

go back? To serve my people. In for that... That's why you wanted to

go back? To serve my people. in 20 seconds, can you do it for the

people? Do you have the vision? If they didn't have programme, I wasn't

supposed to be here to talk about my country. -- if I didn't. Moise

Katumbi, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

The start of the week brought a mixture of sunshine and showers,

but we were very close to some severe and potentially damaging

Just across the way, in Brittany, a gust approaching 120 mph.