Bishop Angaelos - General Bishop, Coptic Orthodox Church UK HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. In just a few days, Pope

Francis will fly to Egypt to offer his personal support to Egypt's

Coptic Christians. He will find a community filled with apprehension,

targeted by jihadist extremists, and subject to persistent discrimination

and sectarian violence. Elsewhere in the Middle East, in Syria and Iraq,

the plight of Christians is even worse. My guest today is the General

Bishop of the cup that church in the UK, Bishop Angaelos. Do Christians

have any future at all in the Middle East? -- one.

Bishop Angaelos, welcome to HARDtalk Do you think there is something

substantively different about the nature of the threat faced by Coptic

Christians in Egypt to date? Because they have faced threats for many

years. Yes. We have faced threats for centuries, particularly over the

past decades, but to have suicide bombers in churches is a shift, and

it looks like the mirroring of attacks in other parts of the world.

And think that is why it has shocked the Egyptian community so much

generally, Christians and Muslims. We have not seen this level of

aggression and violence. We have had attacks, which have been equally

painful, but this does mark a very new chapter. And does that mean,

since we saw the suicide bomber tax onto churches, a cathedral in

Alexandra, and the Church in the Tanta region, does that mean that

Christian communities have to think more carefully than they have before

about self protection? Of course. We saw heightened security around

churches in the lead up to it celebrations. The community is

resilient. It is strong. It is very faithful and forgiving. -- Easter

celebrations. But it has to be more careful. I have said in the past

week that what is ironic is that these churches were bombed and

attacked when they were full. That was only two months after the

bombing in Cairo. So it hasn't dissuaded people from going to

church. You talk about resilience, and I appreciate that those churches

are still being felt, but there are signs that the Egyptian Coptic are

scared in a new way. I am thinking about what we have seen in northern

Sinai. -- Copts are. People have been saying that they are going to

come after Christians, that they will kill you. We saw some doubts,

but we saw many fleeing. Leaving the committee altogether. Do you believe

that is an inevitable response? -- leaving the community. At the time,

and that was the correct response, because they had been undergoing a

tax for weeks leading up to that. But at that point, they realise they

had no more sustainable presents there. So they moved to surrounding

dioceses, that absorb them. I don't think I would use the word fear. I

don't think I have heard any of our church leadership or community use

the word fear, but they are concerned. And they have every right

to protect their families. And they did that in this instance by

leaving. But they remain targeted, because they cannot all become

displaced. And interesting phrase used by one of your colleagues, he

said you can now consider yourselves to be living through a wave of

persecution. Is this an era of outright and sustained persecution,

in your view? I think we have lived a history of persecution throughout

our presence in Egypt. And it has intensified at various times. In our

contemporary history, ever since the presence of the former president,

said that, when Islamist were given a greater range, and they started

you divide up the committee now way. -- Saddat. Christians became more

visible and a bigger target. It is a fault line, isn't it? I'm looking at

the analysis of experts in England is in Egypt. He says the intent here

is to make a separation between Christian and Muslims, and to start

a outright division between the two. Can they succeed? -- Christians.

They have not so far. Whether it was after the bombing in Cairo, or these

bombings, Egypt is very different to the rest of the Middle East. There

is not a tribal presence there. It is much more homogenous. In actual

fact, what we see after every one of these attacks is a greater support

from the greater Muslim community, because they see themselves in the

community as targeted as well. So does not make us more marginalised.

People have come out to support us. The outpouring of support and

shocked that we have seen in the community, both in Egypt and

globally, as a result, is a tell-tale sign. To that extent, you

strike me as an optimist. You could do it around, and talk about how the

state, represented by President al-Sisi and the machinery of the

state, does still not take the basic structural measures to ensure that

the long-term discrimination against Coptic Christians in Egypt is

addressed. There is the short term, the three-month emergency, and the

specific new law about church construction, but many Copts say

what is taught in schools, what about the horrible extremism that

comes from some mosques, why are these things not address? We have

seen it addressed in the past few months. I figure will take a

generation. This sort of thought process has infiltrated the

educational system. The general society, too, so much that it needs

to be replaced by something else. So the correctly have to change. -- the

curricular Bell curricula. Christians it is he themselves as

part of that, living alongside Muslims. I've seen that myself

reporting to HARDtalk in Upper Egypt. -- reporting for. All the way

down to south, you still find many communities where Christians do feel

that their security is constantly under threat. And the government

knows it but still does not seem to do much about it. That has been the

weak point. At the national level, I think we have hearing very

legitimate and sincere promises from the President and the government,

from the national security services, but when one comes down to the local

level, to the villages, to the districts, where there is a sense of

impunity, because crimes go unreported, sometimes, because they

realise that there is not there to be an investigation. There might be

no reprise or conviction will stop so therefore, there is a ratcheting

up, and intensification of the kind of attack, and becomes more deadly

everytime. Any questionnaires at local level, municipal level,

regional, the national level, how many Coptic Christians are in

positions of real authority? Say in the judiciary or in government. You

are a Copt with great knowledge of the country. Can you say your

community is represented in the machinery of government and justice?

Absolutely not. That has been the problem over the past decades. There

is most definitely a glass ceiling will stop and it is not because

there are not enough Christians or they are not intelligent or

specialise enough, because what we see is the leading the public sector

and go to the private sector, and very successful. And that in itself

create a greater resentment, because they are being seen as successful.

So think is part of the overall solution, in a sense of citizenship,

there needs to be greater representation and the understanding

that Christians can be productive, sincere, faithful members of a

community, and the people who can work side by side with Muslims. But

Bishop, is not one of the problem is that you and other senior leaders in

the church, including the current Pope, but also Pope Shenouda, who

you work for the past. You as a group at the top of the church has a

year upon year have been in the pocket of Egypt's rulers. And I am

thinking of Mubarek and now our city. You celebrated when al-Sisi

came back to power. -- al-Sisi. You are Alleyne yourself with a leader

who is authoritarian. I don't think so. We are self-funded and self

defending. We have not seen any greater benefits by supporting

anyone. If we look across the presidency in the past, we have been

attacked equally throughout. And I think we have two change the

paradigms of this conversation a little bit, because I think

Christians in Egypt, as with anywhere, and the right to express

their allegiances to whichever political leadership or party they

see will hold their interests, without reprisal. And I think that

is very important. Yes, but a lot of Copts in Egypt today, looking

online, they are frustrated that you at the top of the church do seem to

be knee-jerk loyal to the president of the country, Mr al-Sisi. For

example, one blogger who blogs about Coptic issues has actually

questioned the current Pope's fidelity to the Coptic creed. He

said the church shows very little love except to the regime, SL. He is

very resentful. -- it self. I agree with this frustration, but I don't

think it is about loyalty. It is about alternatives. -- itself.

Suppose we don't support al-Sisi. What is the alternative? We saw in

the past presidency our cathedral it for the first time in living history

being attacked in the sight of security forces who were standing

and looking on and doing nothing. So that was not a viable option. What

we can also realises that you have two -- if you are looking on, and

there is an alternative, you should do that. So the suggestion is that

if you do not support authoritarians, you are defenceless.

That Christians felt similar things in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and Bashar

al-Assad's Syria. But look at what has happened to questions in those

countries. Because when the dam breaks, and the authoritarian loses

his grip, because of the collaboration, Christians are in

even more danger, aren't they? Creatures are in danger anyway. Over

the past decades, we have seen that. -- Christians. I don't think it is a

blind allegiance. It is an informed choice. Because one look ats at the

options. Or lack of choice? Exactly. On the 30th of September, when

Egyptians came out into the streets, they were by no means in the

Christians. There was a huge spectrum. Yet, when you see police

officers killed, soldiers killed, nobody asked where they were on the

30th. Nobody asked what the political support is. They realise

that they are targeted because they are police officers and soldiers. So

Christians are being targeted by this French, just because they are

Christians. And I think no matter what ever the affiliation as, there

will be targeted because of the intolerance because of this fringe

element. -- by this fringe. I'm giving you a chance in his interview

to speak out against al-Sisi. A lot of Coptic intellectuals came out and

issued a statement, a combination of al-Sisi, and they said that despite

corporation, ordinary Christian citizens, day by day, still suffer

from discrimination. You have an opportunity, here, to save Mr

al-Sisi, at your words about helping us are not backed by actions. And it

is not good enough. We have said that. But it would be naive of any

analyst to say that we do not meet demands and do not stand by our

people. We have to benefit except the interests of our people, and we

do make demands, whether it is for people who are attacked on a daily

basis or others. It is important for me as a bishop that we make these

demands, we have made and through to the government, through their

dramatic core, and we have nothing to fear in making these claims.

The background, it is striking to me that the Pope described the Arab

Spring, which we remember in 2011 a surge of people across the region

taking to the streets in support of Democratic change and reform, he

described the Arab Spring as, quite, not a spring but a winter, plotted

by malicious hands. Is that a place where Christians in the region want

to be? Against that surge of popular support for change and an end to

authoritarianism? No one is against reform, absolutely. I think we saw

what was going to happen, we saw, knowing Egypt and knowing the

political landscape, knowing the mentality and dynamic, that once

this leader was gone, it would become a political vacuum. That

vacuum would be filled by people who may not have the interests of the

country at heart. We saw the greatest number of attacks in those

two years than we had for the previous 20 years, because it was an

anarchic state. As well because there was a sense of empowerment of

those who were on the fringes. Those who didn't really want to think

about anyone else. The thing about democracy is that it is a means to

an end. I think that end is that a democracy is only as strong as it is

able to protect its smallest unit. Let me ask you about the visit of

Pope Francis. We've been discussing how the local Coptic Church finesses

its relationship to the state and power in a very troubled atmosphere

in Egypt today. What do you want from Pope Francis? How robust do you

want his message to the Egyptian government and people to be? I think

on record, Pope Francis has been very robust in his message in

support of Christians in the Middle East and Egypt, and indeed many

persecuted people around the world. It is a Christian message of

equality and sanctity of life and dignity of life. I think that is the

message that people will get. He is primarily going to visit his own

constituency, but also to support the Christians of Egypt, and to look

into the Christian - Muslim dialogue on violent extremism. I think that

voice going into that dialogue, that conversation is going to be

important. It's not about conferences and dialogues any more,

it is about taking ownership of the tax that are being used by the

caliphate and its affiliates to manipulate Muslims -- texts. Muslims

who could otherwise be very good Muslims. To use violence against

peaceful, peace loving people. I have a Christian has broken... Do

you think most Muslims are going to take lectures from leaders like Pope

Francis? No. I am saying that the nature of the dialogue is to try and

speak to our Muslim friends in leadership to say, they need to take

this ownership of there own texts. Some of them are doing it around the

world. There are Western Christian leaders and commentators who fear

that Egypt, the fate of Christians in Egypt could, in years to come,

have horrible similarities to the fate of Christians in Iraq and

Syria. In Iraq, we have seen, since 2003, 80% of all Christians in the

country either killed or have left. Inferior, the figures are getting

close to that as. Christian communities are almost eliminated.

Could that happen in Egypt? It is going to be more difficult. There is

going to be greater pressure, this is not the end, this is only the

beginning of the campaign is. -- campaign. Your numbers are going

down? Somerset Coptic Christians are 10% of 90 million, others say it is

viewer. The numbers seem to be going down? The numbers tend to be

somewhere between 9- 13%. We have indications of about 15%. I think

what we have seen, because it is such a book, it is very difficult to

get what we have seen in other places. For every five Christians in

the Middle East, four are in Egypt. They have become a target and they

live under greater pressure. There will be some relief, but I can't

imagine we will have that amount of haemorrhaging we have tried in other

places, because what used to happen was that there would be persecution

in one place, a person would go to a neighbouring Middle Eastern country.

With a series of failed states, the only way out is Europe or North

America and that is becoming more difficult. Let me ask you about a

very sensitive and important word in this debate. The former Archbishop

of Canterbury used it the other day. That word is genocide. He says that

we have to acknowledge and report what is happening to Christians in

the Middle East as a genocide, and that there are clear moral and legal

imperatives, therefore, to intervene on the part of Western nations and

international nations, not just Western nations. Is that word

relevant? Is it, in your view, the right word for what is happening to

Christians? Absolutely. We have seen it happen in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and

of course in a smaller scale, but it is happening now in Egypt, from this

radical fringe. I was very much part of the campaign that ran to the

United States before the genocide by Congress, we went to the State

Department, I was very happy to hear a parliament here be very much in

line with that. I think it is really our responsibility, as a minister

and a Christian, I need to look at the interests of people. I would be

very tribal and supercritical if I was just to look at Christians in

Egypt, without looking at Christians across the Middle East and looking

at even groups like there easy to use. There is a narrow in scope

through the Middle East. Only certain people have the right to

exist. We need, in conscience, to address that. If it is a word you

say is entirely the right word, then what on earth is your view of

Western political leaders who are not intervening? There has been a

deafening silence over the past decades. I think we have seen that

starting to break recently. Some would say it is too little, too

late, but is not too late for those who are still there and suffering.

Whatever we can do, even at this late stage, we must try to do. Talk

about those still suffering. There is also a debate about them, because

frankly, it seems that in Iraq and Syria, even those still there are

making plans to escape. They see no future in either country. They think

the Christian experience and presence in those countries is over.

Yet, we have Christian leaders, I will now quite your -- quote words

from a former cleric, he wrote this open letter to his flock in Syria

saying, despite all your suffering, stay here, do not emigrate. We

absorb the faithful, call them to patients in spite of the

tribulations, spite of the tsunami and bloody, tragic crises. Jesus

tells us, he finished, fear not. Do you, as a religious Christian

leader, have a right to tell your flock not to flee in the face of all

of this? The patriarch has a right to approach his own people in a way

he thinks is fitting. What is your view of whether that is the right

thing to say to ordinary Christian people facing the reality of life

and death in Iraq and Syria today? It is exactly that, facing reality I

don't think I should put the burden on a single individual for the

continuance of Christianity, and have him or her stay there at the

personal cost, because of that. I think people need to make a personal

decision. If they think they have a viable presence in existence, we

need to support them to stay safe and dignified. But if they need to

leave, if they think, got they will decide on the interest and safety of

their children and families, we need to provide a safe passage. I don't

think we can prescribe that. What would you do if it was you and your

family in Iraq or Syria today? It is difficult to know. If I was alone as

a celibate monk, I would probably stay. If I had to look after a

family with vulnerable people, children, the elderly, I would look

after their interests. That is why I say it is a particular personal

decision that we can't take away from people. They need to make those

decisions for themselves and to be able to ensure the lights... We live

in freedom, dignity and safety, and I don't think I should expect less

of anybody in the world. Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.

Thank you.