Bishop Angaelos - General Bishop, Coptic Orthodox Church UK HARDtalk


Bishop Angaelos - General Bishop, Coptic Orthodox Church UK

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Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. In just a few days, Pope

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Francis will fly to Egypt to offer his personal support to Egypt's

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Coptic Christians. He will find a community filled with apprehension,

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targeted by jihadist extremists, and subject to persistent discrimination

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and sectarian violence. Elsewhere in the Middle East, in Syria and Iraq,

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the plight of Christians is even worse. My guest today is the General

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Bishop of the cup that church in the UK, Bishop Angaelos. Do Christians

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have any future at all in the Middle East? -- one.

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Bishop Angaelos, welcome to HARDtalk Do you think there is something

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substantively different about the nature of the threat faced by Coptic

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Christians in Egypt to date? Because they have faced threats for many

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years. Yes. We have faced threats for centuries, particularly over the

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past decades, but to have suicide bombers in churches is a shift, and

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it looks like the mirroring of attacks in other parts of the world.

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And think that is why it has shocked the Egyptian community so much

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generally, Christians and Muslims. We have not seen this level of

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aggression and violence. We have had attacks, which have been equally

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painful, but this does mark a very new chapter. And does that mean,

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since we saw the suicide bomber tax onto churches, a cathedral in

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Alexandra, and the Church in the Tanta region, does that mean that

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Christian communities have to think more carefully than they have before

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about self protection? Of course. We saw heightened security around

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churches in the lead up to it celebrations. The community is

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resilient. It is strong. It is very faithful and forgiving. -- Easter

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celebrations. But it has to be more careful. I have said in the past

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week that what is ironic is that these churches were bombed and

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attacked when they were full. That was only two months after the

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bombing in Cairo. So it hasn't dissuaded people from going to

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church. You talk about resilience, and I appreciate that those churches

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are still being felt, but there are signs that the Egyptian Coptic are

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scared in a new way. I am thinking about what we have seen in northern

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Sinai. -- Copts are. People have been saying that they are going to

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come after Christians, that they will kill you. We saw some doubts,

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but we saw many fleeing. Leaving the committee altogether. Do you believe

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that is an inevitable response? -- leaving the community. At the time,

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and that was the correct response, because they had been undergoing a

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tax for weeks leading up to that. But at that point, they realise they

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had no more sustainable presents there. So they moved to surrounding

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dioceses, that absorb them. I don't think I would use the word fear. I

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don't think I have heard any of our church leadership or community use

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the word fear, but they are concerned. And they have every right

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to protect their families. And they did that in this instance by

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leaving. But they remain targeted, because they cannot all become

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displaced. And interesting phrase used by one of your colleagues, he

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said you can now consider yourselves to be living through a wave of

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persecution. Is this an era of outright and sustained persecution,

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in your view? I think we have lived a history of persecution throughout

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our presence in Egypt. And it has intensified at various times. In our

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contemporary history, ever since the presence of the former president,

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said that, when Islamist were given a greater range, and they started

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you divide up the committee now way. -- Saddat. Christians became more

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visible and a bigger target. It is a fault line, isn't it? I'm looking at

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the analysis of experts in England is in Egypt. He says the intent here

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is to make a separation between Christian and Muslims, and to start

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a outright division between the two. Can they succeed? -- Christians.

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They have not so far. Whether it was after the bombing in Cairo, or these

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bombings, Egypt is very different to the rest of the Middle East. There

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is not a tribal presence there. It is much more homogenous. In actual

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fact, what we see after every one of these attacks is a greater support

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from the greater Muslim community, because they see themselves in the

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community as targeted as well. So does not make us more marginalised.

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People have come out to support us. The outpouring of support and

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shocked that we have seen in the community, both in Egypt and

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globally, as a result, is a tell-tale sign. To that extent, you

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strike me as an optimist. You could do it around, and talk about how the

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state, represented by President al-Sisi and the machinery of the

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state, does still not take the basic structural measures to ensure that

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the long-term discrimination against Coptic Christians in Egypt is

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addressed. There is the short term, the three-month emergency, and the

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specific new law about church construction, but many Copts say

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what is taught in schools, what about the horrible extremism that

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comes from some mosques, why are these things not address? We have

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seen it addressed in the past few months. I figure will take a

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generation. This sort of thought process has infiltrated the

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educational system. The general society, too, so much that it needs

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to be replaced by something else. So the correctly have to change. -- the

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curricular Bell curricula. Christians it is he themselves as

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part of that, living alongside Muslims. I've seen that myself

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reporting to HARDtalk in Upper Egypt. -- reporting for. All the way

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down to south, you still find many communities where Christians do feel

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that their security is constantly under threat. And the government

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knows it but still does not seem to do much about it. That has been the

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weak point. At the national level, I think we have hearing very

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legitimate and sincere promises from the President and the government,

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from the national security services, but when one comes down to the local

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level, to the villages, to the districts, where there is a sense of

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impunity, because crimes go unreported, sometimes, because they

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realise that there is not there to be an investigation. There might be

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no reprise or conviction will stop so therefore, there is a ratcheting

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up, and intensification of the kind of attack, and becomes more deadly

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everytime. Any questionnaires at local level, municipal level,

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regional, the national level, how many Coptic Christians are in

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positions of real authority? Say in the judiciary or in government. You

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are a Copt with great knowledge of the country. Can you say your

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community is represented in the machinery of government and justice?

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Absolutely not. That has been the problem over the past decades. There

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is most definitely a glass ceiling will stop and it is not because

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there are not enough Christians or they are not intelligent or

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specialise enough, because what we see is the leading the public sector

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and go to the private sector, and very successful. And that in itself

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create a greater resentment, because they are being seen as successful.

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So think is part of the overall solution, in a sense of citizenship,

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there needs to be greater representation and the understanding

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that Christians can be productive, sincere, faithful members of a

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community, and the people who can work side by side with Muslims. But

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Bishop, is not one of the problem is that you and other senior leaders in

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the church, including the current Pope, but also Pope Shenouda, who

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you work for the past. You as a group at the top of the church has a

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year upon year have been in the pocket of Egypt's rulers. And I am

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thinking of Mubarek and now our city. You celebrated when al-Sisi

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came back to power. -- al-Sisi. You are Alleyne yourself with a leader

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who is authoritarian. I don't think so. We are self-funded and self

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defending. We have not seen any greater benefits by supporting

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anyone. If we look across the presidency in the past, we have been

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attacked equally throughout. And I think we have two change the

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paradigms of this conversation a little bit, because I think

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Christians in Egypt, as with anywhere, and the right to express

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their allegiances to whichever political leadership or party they

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see will hold their interests, without reprisal. And I think that

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is very important. Yes, but a lot of Copts in Egypt today, looking

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online, they are frustrated that you at the top of the church do seem to

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be knee-jerk loyal to the president of the country, Mr al-Sisi. For

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example, one blogger who blogs about Coptic issues has actually

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questioned the current Pope's fidelity to the Coptic creed. He

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said the church shows very little love except to the regime, SL. He is

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very resentful. -- it self. I agree with this frustration, but I don't

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think it is about loyalty. It is about alternatives. -- itself.

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Suppose we don't support al-Sisi. What is the alternative? We saw in

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the past presidency our cathedral it for the first time in living history

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being attacked in the sight of security forces who were standing

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and looking on and doing nothing. So that was not a viable option. What

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we can also realises that you have two -- if you are looking on, and

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there is an alternative, you should do that. So the suggestion is that

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if you do not support authoritarians, you are defenceless.

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That Christians felt similar things in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and Bashar

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al-Assad's Syria. But look at what has happened to questions in those

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countries. Because when the dam breaks, and the authoritarian loses

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his grip, because of the collaboration, Christians are in

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even more danger, aren't they? Creatures are in danger anyway. Over

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the past decades, we have seen that. -- Christians. I don't think it is a

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blind allegiance. It is an informed choice. Because one look ats at the

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options. Or lack of choice? Exactly. On the 30th of September, when

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Egyptians came out into the streets, they were by no means in the

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Christians. There was a huge spectrum. Yet, when you see police

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officers killed, soldiers killed, nobody asked where they were on the

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30th. Nobody asked what the political support is. They realise

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that they are targeted because they are police officers and soldiers. So

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Christians are being targeted by this French, just because they are

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Christians. And I think no matter what ever the affiliation as, there

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will be targeted because of the intolerance because of this fringe

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element. -- by this fringe. I'm giving you a chance in his interview

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to speak out against al-Sisi. A lot of Coptic intellectuals came out and

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issued a statement, a combination of al-Sisi, and they said that despite

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corporation, ordinary Christian citizens, day by day, still suffer

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from discrimination. You have an opportunity, here, to save Mr

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al-Sisi, at your words about helping us are not backed by actions. And it

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is not good enough. We have said that. But it would be naive of any

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analyst to say that we do not meet demands and do not stand by our

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people. We have to benefit except the interests of our people, and we

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do make demands, whether it is for people who are attacked on a daily

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basis or others. It is important for me as a bishop that we make these

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demands, we have made and through to the government, through their

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dramatic core, and we have nothing to fear in making these claims.

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The background, it is striking to me that the Pope described the Arab

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Spring, which we remember in 2011 a surge of people across the region

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taking to the streets in support of Democratic change and reform, he

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described the Arab Spring as, quite, not a spring but a winter, plotted

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by malicious hands. Is that a place where Christians in the region want

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to be? Against that surge of popular support for change and an end to

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authoritarianism? No one is against reform, absolutely. I think we saw

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what was going to happen, we saw, knowing Egypt and knowing the

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political landscape, knowing the mentality and dynamic, that once

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this leader was gone, it would become a political vacuum. That

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vacuum would be filled by people who may not have the interests of the

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country at heart. We saw the greatest number of attacks in those

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two years than we had for the previous 20 years, because it was an

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anarchic state. As well because there was a sense of empowerment of

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those who were on the fringes. Those who didn't really want to think

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about anyone else. The thing about democracy is that it is a means to

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an end. I think that end is that a democracy is only as strong as it is

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able to protect its smallest unit. Let me ask you about the visit of

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Pope Francis. We've been discussing how the local Coptic Church finesses

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its relationship to the state and power in a very troubled atmosphere

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in Egypt today. What do you want from Pope Francis? How robust do you

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want his message to the Egyptian government and people to be? I think

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on record, Pope Francis has been very robust in his message in

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support of Christians in the Middle East and Egypt, and indeed many

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persecuted people around the world. It is a Christian message of

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equality and sanctity of life and dignity of life. I think that is the

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message that people will get. He is primarily going to visit his own

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constituency, but also to support the Christians of Egypt, and to look

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into the Christian - Muslim dialogue on violent extremism. I think that

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voice going into that dialogue, that conversation is going to be

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important. It's not about conferences and dialogues any more,

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it is about taking ownership of the tax that are being used by the

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caliphate and its affiliates to manipulate Muslims -- texts. Muslims

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who could otherwise be very good Muslims. To use violence against

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peaceful, peace loving people. I have a Christian has broken... Do

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you think most Muslims are going to take lectures from leaders like Pope

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Francis? No. I am saying that the nature of the dialogue is to try and

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speak to our Muslim friends in leadership to say, they need to take

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this ownership of there own texts. Some of them are doing it around the

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world. There are Western Christian leaders and commentators who fear

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that Egypt, the fate of Christians in Egypt could, in years to come,

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have horrible similarities to the fate of Christians in Iraq and

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Syria. In Iraq, we have seen, since 2003, 80% of all Christians in the

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country either killed or have left. Inferior, the figures are getting

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close to that as. Christian communities are almost eliminated.

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Could that happen in Egypt? It is going to be more difficult. There is

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going to be greater pressure, this is not the end, this is only the

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beginning of the campaign is. -- campaign. Your numbers are going

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down? Somerset Coptic Christians are 10% of 90 million, others say it is

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viewer. The numbers seem to be going down? The numbers tend to be

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somewhere between 9- 13%. We have indications of about 15%. I think

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what we have seen, because it is such a book, it is very difficult to

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get what we have seen in other places. For every five Christians in

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the Middle East, four are in Egypt. They have become a target and they

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live under greater pressure. There will be some relief, but I can't

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imagine we will have that amount of haemorrhaging we have tried in other

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places, because what used to happen was that there would be persecution

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in one place, a person would go to a neighbouring Middle Eastern country.

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With a series of failed states, the only way out is Europe or North

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America and that is becoming more difficult. Let me ask you about a

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very sensitive and important word in this debate. The former Archbishop

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of Canterbury used it the other day. That word is genocide. He says that

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we have to acknowledge and report what is happening to Christians in

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the Middle East as a genocide, and that there are clear moral and legal

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imperatives, therefore, to intervene on the part of Western nations and

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international nations, not just Western nations. Is that word

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relevant? Is it, in your view, the right word for what is happening to

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Christians? Absolutely. We have seen it happen in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and

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of course in a smaller scale, but it is happening now in Egypt, from this

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radical fringe. I was very much part of the campaign that ran to the

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United States before the genocide by Congress, we went to the State

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Department, I was very happy to hear a parliament here be very much in

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line with that. I think it is really our responsibility, as a minister

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and a Christian, I need to look at the interests of people. I would be

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very tribal and supercritical if I was just to look at Christians in

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Egypt, without looking at Christians across the Middle East and looking

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at even groups like there easy to use. There is a narrow in scope

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through the Middle East. Only certain people have the right to

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exist. We need, in conscience, to address that. If it is a word you

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say is entirely the right word, then what on earth is your view of

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Western political leaders who are not intervening? There has been a

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deafening silence over the past decades. I think we have seen that

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starting to break recently. Some would say it is too little, too

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late, but is not too late for those who are still there and suffering.

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Whatever we can do, even at this late stage, we must try to do. Talk

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about those still suffering. There is also a debate about them, because

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frankly, it seems that in Iraq and Syria, even those still there are

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making plans to escape. They see no future in either country. They think

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the Christian experience and presence in those countries is over.

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Yet, we have Christian leaders, I will now quite your -- quote words

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from a former cleric, he wrote this open letter to his flock in Syria

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saying, despite all your suffering, stay here, do not emigrate. We

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absorb the faithful, call them to patients in spite of the

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tribulations, spite of the tsunami and bloody, tragic crises. Jesus

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tells us, he finished, fear not. Do you, as a religious Christian

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leader, have a right to tell your flock not to flee in the face of all

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of this? The patriarch has a right to approach his own people in a way

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he thinks is fitting. What is your view of whether that is the right

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thing to say to ordinary Christian people facing the reality of life

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and death in Iraq and Syria today? It is exactly that, facing reality I

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don't think I should put the burden on a single individual for the

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continuance of Christianity, and have him or her stay there at the

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personal cost, because of that. I think people need to make a personal

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decision. If they think they have a viable presence in existence, we

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need to support them to stay safe and dignified. But if they need to

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leave, if they think, got they will decide on the interest and safety of

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their children and families, we need to provide a safe passage. I don't

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think we can prescribe that. What would you do if it was you and your

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family in Iraq or Syria today? It is difficult to know. If I was alone as

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a celibate monk, I would probably stay. If I had to look after a

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family with vulnerable people, children, the elderly, I would look

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after their interests. That is why I say it is a particular personal

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decision that we can't take away from people. They need to make those

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decisions for themselves and to be able to ensure the lights... We live

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in freedom, dignity and safety, and I don't think I should expect less

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of anybody in the world. Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.

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Thank you.

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