Michaela DePrince, Ballerina HARDtalk


Michaela DePrince, Ballerina

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk.

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I'm Stephen Sackur.

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To make it to the top in the world of ballet requires not just

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extraordinary talent, but immense reserves of physical

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and mental determination.

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So imagine how much more it takes if your childhood

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is torn apart by civil war, hunger and homelessness.

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Today's guest, Michaela DePrince, has made a remarkable journey

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from horrific suffering in Sierra Leone to accolades

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in the world of international dance.

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How on Earth did she make it happen?

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Michaela DePrince, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you, thank you.

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It's almost a cliche to talk about people who have made

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remarkable journeys, but you really have.

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And I want to know today, as you sit here with me

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as an internationally acclaimed ballerina, how connected do you feel

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to that little girl who was born and brought up in the first few

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years of her life in Sierra Leone?

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I don't feel as connected as I used to be to her.

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I do have those days where I still have those horrible

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nightmares about my past in Sierra Leone, but, really,

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I'm just Michaela DePrince now.

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I'm not Mabinty Bangura any more.

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What about your memories of Mabinty?

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I mean of the girl you were born as, and raised by a family

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who were caught up in the most terrible way in Sierra

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Leone's civil war.

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For me, it's just - it's mostly just little tiny images

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and the only parts

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I really remember now...

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I don't remember the faces of my biological mom and father.

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I can see their figures but I don't even remember what they looked like.

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And if I'm thinking or dreaming or having a nightmare,

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it's mostly about running from the rebels, all the things that

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people were yelling at me about, or it's mostly those things and just

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the emotions I was feeling, and that's what I wake up yelling

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and screaming about and having to recover from.

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And going to be able to recover from that and still being able

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to go to work that day.

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It's interesting you say you feel less connected

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than you used to and, of course, as you grow up,

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the memories become more distant, but it is interesting to me that

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you've chosen to write about it for a young

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audience around the world.

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This book, Ballerina Dreams, has recently come out in Europe.

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And it's billed as a true story, and you do go

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into some detail of what it was like to be

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a girl at a time of war.

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So you don't want to completely forget about it.

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No, I don't want to completely forget about it.

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It's made me who I am today.

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It doesn't have as many details as it could,

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but I think it is very important for people not to forget

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about the struggles they have been through because it

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creates who you are.

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And if I didn't go through those things, I wouldn't be

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as strong as I am today, because I go through horrible things

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every single day in my dance career and people say things to me that

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maybe I would cry about, but I don't - it doesn't necessarily

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faze me any more, because of the things I've

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been said to before.

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You talk about how strong you are today.

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Let's give people,

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at an early point in this conversation, a real sense

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of what you do, and how you dance.

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Let's look, I think, at a performance from last year,

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of you in the Nutcracker in the Dutch National Ballet.

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Yes.

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MUSIC: Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy.

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It's gorgeous to look at and, of course, so many people

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know the Nutcracker, but, then, to think back to some

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of the very specific experiences that you went through as a young

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girl, it is almost unbelievable that you've come from there to here.

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So I do want you to just go into a little bit

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of detail about the degree to which Sierra Leone's

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war had a very direct and personal impact upon you.

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I mean just catalogue a few of the terrible things.

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Well, because of the war, my father was shot by the rebels.

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And my biological parents were the only people who believed

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in me, because of my vitiligo.

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In Sierra Leone, they did not understand that vitiligo

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was just a skin condition.

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And let me just stop you there,

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because there will be people around the world

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who do not know who vitiligo.

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It's a pigmentation issue in your skin.

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Yes.

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A loss of pigment in your skin.

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But, unfortunately, in Sierra Leone at the time,

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they just didn't have books or equipment to look up what this

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was, and so they discriminated me, they ridiculed me, they harassed me.

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I mean, to look at you, you look absolutely fine.

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Thanks.

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But you do have this pigmentation issue.

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Yet, from all the way from here and all the way along, my torso.

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On my hands and my arms and my back.

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It gets more and more also when I'm older and also

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some of them fade away, but it was a lot brighter also,

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when I was younger.

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But they didn't understand it, so they called me the devil's child.

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And when my father was shot by the rebels, that meant

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that we didn't really have any source of income for food.

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So then my mum and I - my biological mum and I -

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had to move in with my uncle.

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But my uncle wanted nothing to do with me,

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and so when she passed away, because she ended up starving

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to death, or had a disease, he didn't see any point

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in wasting his money or his food on a child

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who doesn't deserve it, in his mind, so he sent me

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to the orphanage and never came to see if I was OK, or anything.

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And then also, in the orphanage, thinking, OK, I'm surrounded

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by people who might care about me, they ranked us by favourites.

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Number one was the favourite child, number 27 was

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the least-favourite child.

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And because of my vitiligo, I was number 27, the

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least-favourite child.

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And so that meant I got the smallest portion of food

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and the last choice of clothes.

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And you would have thought,

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you know, these kids have been through so much -

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they've lost their parents or their parents weren't able

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to take care of them - that maybe we will show them

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that they are loved and that people care about them.

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And unfortunately, that wasn't the case for me at all.

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But I did have somebody in the orphanage who did care about me.

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Actually, two people.

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Number 26, my best friend, and my sister.

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She was number 26 because she was left-handed,

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and she used to wet the bed, and they didn't understand

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that, you know.

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Well, they didn't understand a lot of things.

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And it's not their fault that they didn't understand that,

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I understand as an older person now, but, before, I just made it seem

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like it didn't faze me, I didn't care if they didn't like me.

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Were you, in this orphanage, at least detected from the really

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brutal violence of the civil war?

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Well, you'll see in a few minutes.

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So we had a teacher who came to the orphanage

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and she was pregnant at the time.

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And this story is in the children's book.

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She cared about me.

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She taught us English.

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I used to always walk her to the gate and she was the one

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who told me about the Ballerina that I found, like, the magazine.

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That she was a ballerina.

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And she was also telling me, maybe you'll become this

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ballerina one day.

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She was, it away, the one who planted the vision

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in your mind off this beautiful, beautiful sort of mythical figure

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of the ballerina who could be happy and who could dance.

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Yes.

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And so I walked her to the orphanage gate and these two rebels come,

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intoxicated with either drugs or alcohol in their system,

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with this little rebel, and they pull out their machete.

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And they cut her open to see if there was a baby girl or baby boy.

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And they were betting.

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So one of them was like, "No, it's going to be a boy,

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it's going to be a girl."

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And it ended up being a girl.

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And they didn't like that, because usually they turned

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the little baby boys into young soldier rebels.

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And so they are upset and so they end up cutting her arms

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and legs off in front of me.

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I tried to go save her and they did the same to me

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and cut my stomach open.

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And so, because of that...

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I'm sorry, how old are you?

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I was about three years old.

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And because of that...

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I am sorry to interrupt.

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You said to be earlier that you try to distance yourself.

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Do you actually remember this?

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Yes.

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But it easier for me to tell it so I don't did emotional, faster,

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than to be able to...

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It is easier for me now to say it with a wall,

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instead of thinking about it, because it's too painful to think

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about and to feel those emotions.

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It's hard for me to be able to continue my day,

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or to continue what I want to do in my life, because then it's just

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going to hold me back.

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It's just...

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Even as we talk about it, it is so shocking to hear it,

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I'm wondering whether, as an artist, and you are,

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an extraordinarily expressive artist, using your body to speak

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to audiences around the world.

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How you can find the way to be so expressive when there's so much

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that's locked up inside you.

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That's what has made my career a bit more difficult.

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I think I could have been more artistic sooner if I wasn't having

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to have that wall of emotions locked up for such a long time.

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And that's why I'm incredibly lucky to have the director I have now,

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because he understands that.

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But now, I've - I had to do this performance once and I lost

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a brother,

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when I got adopted.

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Because I always assumed I am going to lose people I love,

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so I ended up having to also having to tell myself not to love people,

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for quite a long time.

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And then I finally let somebody in again, to -

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you know, that I cared about, and he ended up passing away.

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I had to do a piece about death and I ended up crying on stage,

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because I have to think about the fact...

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I have to think about my brother, Teddy.

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But you know, that's what makes us so beautiful,

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though, that you can use the things that

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you've been through to

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connect with the audience, and that is what art is and that's

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what makes us so passionate.

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And it means sometimes it's hard, but, at the same time,

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you have to have the right support system, the right people

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who can help you, bring you back into reality.

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Do you think, in a sense, finding your path, through dance,

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sort of saved you?

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Oh, it definitely saved me.

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Definitely.

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I don't think I would be the person I am today.

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I don't think I would be...

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I don't think I would be happy at all, if I hadn't danced.

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I would be still that angry little girl that I was.

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And yet, if we fast forward, you were adopted, in the end,

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by an American family, and you were taken to the

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United States into a comfortable, relatively prosperous home.

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Wonderful home, yeah.

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And that's when you got the opportunity to go to ballet

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school, to learn how to dance.

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Yeah.

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But - and here's what's interesting to me -

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even then, in that new, comfortable environment,

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you still had an enormous struggle, because, let's face it,

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you were trying to make it in a world which is extraordinarily

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white and where black dancers have an awful lot of, sort of,

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conventional wisdom which says black dancers simply can't do ballet.

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Yeah.

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I thought it was going to be completely easy,

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but then the older I got, the more I noticed there aren't any

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dancers who look like me.

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Why is that?

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But I had the opportunity...

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There was a dancer from the Pennsylvania Ballet,

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Heidi Cruz.

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She was the only one who looked like me.

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And she was also one of the people who was one of my role models,

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who told me to never give up on my dream.

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There is another beautiful dancer, Lauren Anderson, who was also

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a role model for me.

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But, out of how many dancers, how many black dancers,

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I'm sure there have been, why were there only two?

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Here's a quote from something you said a while ago:

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"When I was young, as a dancer," you said, "I overheard one

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of the directors working with us saying, 'We don't put a lot

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of effort into the black girls, because they end up getting fat.'"

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Yeah. That's a pretty horrible...

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And yet, you said to yourself, "Never mind all this,

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this is still the world I want to be in."

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Yeah.

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And maybe I'm a bit crazy, but, the thing is, for me,

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I love proving people wrong.

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It's my thing that I love to do, and that's what got me

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through the whole thing in Sierra Leone, and that's

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what is going to continue to get me through life.

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You can't just think that somebody's going to be a certain way,

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just because somebody else was like that.

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It's not fair that you are going to give up on somebody just

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because you want to see them in a certain light.

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When you were 17, and we should remind people,

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you are only 22 now.

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But when you were 17, and wanted to join a professional

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company, you looked to Europe and you found,

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or the Dutch National Ballet found you, and they offered you this

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position and you said it felt like your Rosa Parks moment.

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Yes.

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And every single time this company

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continues to surprise me

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by promoting me and believing in me and I'm just incredibly grateful

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for this opportunity.

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And I'm incredibly grateful by the fact that in Europe

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in general, what I've experienced, also in London, when I danced

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with English National Ballet, is the fact that they're not looking

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at my skin colour.

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They're looking at the fact that I'm just an artist who wants to move

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people and he wants to change people's lives by having them

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come see me perform.

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In that spirit, let's look at our second clip of you recently

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in a performance of Swan Lake with the Dutch National Ballet.

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Now, Michaela, you say, you know, your ambition is to be an artist

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who is never judged on the colour of her skin, but one cannot help

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noticing, as we look at you moving so beautifully there,

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that pretty much everybody else in the ensemble is white.

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I just wonder whether even today you feel there is an extra scrutiny

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on you because you still, it has to be said, unusual

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in the world you've chosen to live in.

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Yeah.

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I think it's time for that not to be a discussion any more.

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That there is only one black arena at the Dutch National Ballet.

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I even thought, in the Nutcracker, in the beginning there is a small

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Marie, a small Clara, and it was an Asian girl.

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And all of a sudden she turns black.

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For me, I think that's...

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Why?

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Why couldn't we have a little black Clara or Marie?

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So I think it's time for a change and I'm hoping it's happening.

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It's a slow process but it needs to happen faster,

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it really does.

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I suppose, in a way, ballet is one of those artforms

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that is so steeped in tradition, born out of performances that began

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in Europe's while houses and among the elites of Europe.

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There is perhaps a snobbishness in ballet that isn't

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there in some other artforms.

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Yeah, I think some people are scared of change,

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or the fact how people will respond to change.

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Now, you just saw in the video, I am wearing pink tights,

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and that was, I think, that most of the people,

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most dancers wore white and they wore pink tights

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to complete the line.

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But I'm brown, so, for me to wear pink tights,

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it destroys my line completely.

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So now, in all my performances, I'm going to wear brown tights.

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But you never think to yourself, you know what, this world is just

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beyond the pale for me?

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There are so many other creative forms of dance,

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all sorts of wonderful contemporary dance.

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And I know you do some of that, too.

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I love it, yeah, it's fun.

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You won't give up on the ballet?

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No, no.

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I love wearing tutus and I love the romantic stories.

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It's like as if I'm a little girl playing dress-up.

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I love the way it makes me feel.

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But I also love doing contemporary stuff, which is being myself

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and being feisty, but being romantic at the same time.

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It's an amazing opportunity.

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Let me now bring you back to personal stuff and in particular

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your take on going back to Sierra Leone.

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Because you've become an ambassador for War Child,

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an organisation which is devoted to helping children caught up

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in wars around the world.

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Yet it strikes me that you've never been back to what is your native

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land, your home.

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I would love to go back.

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I became the ambassador with War Child Holland just last

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year and I would love to go back to Sierra Leone,

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but it has to do with the fact that if I'm ready mentally.

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I went to South Africa four years ago, for the first time,

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and I was terrified.

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Because I was so scared that I would get the memories,

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or exactly the full memories of people'sfaces, the emotions

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rushing back, and what happens if I would freeze completely?

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I didn't have any family member with me.

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How would I be able to function and perform and do what I came to do

0:17:520:17:56

in South Africa?

0:17:560:17:57

It suggests to me there is still an awful lot of trauma

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in your mind.

0:18:000:18:01

Exactly.

0:18:010:18:01

And it's not like I was just...

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A lot of the kids in the orphanage did not go through the amount

0:18:030:18:07

of things that I went through.

0:18:070:18:09

My sister went through a lot, also.

0:18:090:18:11

My other sister.

0:18:110:18:11

It's just the thing is I need to be able to have the amount of support

0:18:110:18:16

when I go there.

0:18:160:18:17

I'm going to go back.

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I want to start a school there.

0:18:180:18:20

I want to start an art school there.

0:18:200:18:22

It's going to happen.

0:18:220:18:23

It strikes me, we talk about inspirational figures,

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but what you could offer the kids, the young people of Sierra Leone,

0:18:260:18:29

is something extraordinary.

0:18:290:18:30

A story like no other.

0:18:300:18:32

No, I would definitely love to go back, but I don't know

0:18:320:18:35

if you know my schedule.

0:18:350:18:37

I work from ten to six every day.

0:18:370:18:39

I barely even get a week off during the summer.

0:18:390:18:42

But it's going to happen.

0:18:420:18:43

I'm actually hoping maybe I can go this summer with another ambassador,

0:18:430:18:46

an ambassador here, actually, in War Child UK.

0:18:460:18:50

I know this is a very intrusive question and maybe raises

0:18:500:18:53

lots of painful issues, but do you know, for example,

0:18:530:18:56

what has happened to your uncle?

0:18:560:18:58

The man who, in many ways, gave your way to the orphanage,

0:18:580:19:01

who refused to acknowledge or as part of his family.

0:19:010:19:09

Well, I've gotten a Facebook message from him asking for money.

0:19:090:19:13

Also from the person who ran the orphanage,

0:19:130:19:15

because of my story and stuff.

0:19:150:19:17

You know, the thing is, first I was really angry,

0:19:170:19:20

but I forgiven him and I forgiven the person who ran the orphanage.

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Thing is, they don't deserve high forgiveness,

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but I'm a bigger person and I think there is no reason for me to hold

0:19:320:19:36

a grudge any more because it's not going to help me move

0:19:360:19:39

on with my life and I deserve a lot more than to focus on what they did

0:19:390:19:44

to me before.

0:19:440:19:45

And they don't deserve me even to talk about them.

0:19:450:19:47

There's another aspect of this that raises important moral and ethical

0:19:470:19:50

issues and batteries you are by no means the only child who was plucked

0:19:500:19:56

out of difficult, sometimes awful circumstances in Africa,

0:19:560:19:59

and adopted by families desperate to get a child for their family

0:19:590:20:05

in the rich west - in the United States,

0:20:050:20:09

but it happens in other western countries, too.

0:20:090:20:13

Are you a great believer in the idea that that is the right and proper

0:20:130:20:17

thing to do?

0:20:170:20:18

To adopt?

0:20:180:20:19

To adopt, to allow international adoption so the kids are plucked far

0:20:190:20:22

away from their home countries and cultures.

0:20:220:20:24

I think it's...

0:20:240:20:25

For me, I believe it was the best thing.

0:20:250:20:34

One, it saved my life.

0:20:340:20:36

I would not be alive today.

0:20:360:20:37

You really believe that?

0:20:370:20:38

No, I was very sick.

0:20:380:20:40

I had 106 fever Fahrenheit.

0:20:400:20:41

I don't know what it is in Celsius.

0:20:410:20:53

Yeah, well that's dangerous, yeah.

0:20:530:20:54

Yet.

0:20:540:20:54

And I would not be alive today.

0:20:550:20:58

I also had a hernia, where my organs were coming

0:20:580:21:01

out, so no.

0:21:010:21:02

But I also think the thing is it's very important to also

0:21:020:21:05

educate your children about the culture they came from,

0:21:050:21:07

so they understand what they've been through so they don't forget.

0:21:070:21:10

Because some kids, they do forget where they've come from and then

0:21:100:21:14

they feel like they're missing something.

0:21:140:21:15

I think adoption is an amazing thing and I am just so grateful.

0:21:150:21:19

My other...

0:21:190:21:19

Well, 11 kids in my family, but the other nine who are adopted

0:21:190:21:23

are so grateful for their life.

0:21:230:21:24

The flip side of it, and I know this doesn't apply

0:21:240:21:27

to you, but the flip side of it - and it came out in a major report

0:21:270:21:32

in 2012 from the African Child Policy Forum, and I'm just quoting

0:21:320:21:36

a tiny bit of it, aying "the majority of so-called orphans

0:21:360:21:39

adopted from Africa have, actually, at least one living parent

0:21:390:21:41

and many of these children have been trafficked or sold by their parents.

0:21:410:21:45

Yeah.

0:21:450:21:45

And if you allow international adoption, then the message

0:21:450:21:47

from a variety of different sources, including that major report,

0:21:470:21:50

is that it leads to these terrible situation is,

0:21:500:21:53

abuse of the system.

0:21:530:21:54

That's the thing.

0:21:540:21:55

I saw this documentary a few years ago about that and that's

0:21:550:21:58

what really upsets me, because people believe and then

0:21:580:22:00

they see these negative things about adoption and they don't see

0:22:000:22:03

how many positive outcomes can actually happen through adoption,

0:22:030:22:06

and that makes me really, really sad, because these children

0:22:060:22:09

deserve an amazing life.

0:22:090:22:17

Let's end by talking about identity.

0:22:170:22:19

OK.

0:22:190:22:19

You've gone into a world which is, in some ways, so alien

0:22:190:22:22

to you and your background, and yet you are determined to thrive

0:22:220:22:25

in it and become a major star in it and it seems to be working.

0:22:250:22:30

Also, you switched Countries from Sierra Leone and now

0:22:300:22:32

you are fully American in the way you've been brought up.

0:22:320:22:35

Characterise your identity for me as you see it today.

0:22:350:22:38

I think my identity is very European, not very American.

0:22:380:22:41

Really?

0:22:410:22:42

Yeah, very.

0:22:420:22:49

I think...

0:22:490:22:50

Yes, very.

0:22:500:22:50

Very, especially with...

0:22:500:22:51

Yeah.

0:22:510:22:54

I think you're saying especially with the way America is today.

0:22:540:22:57

I think it is just the way things are going and I'm just a bit sad

0:22:570:23:01

with how things are going in America right now.

0:23:010:23:03

But, at the same time, I am looking forward to going back

0:23:040:23:07

to Africa one day and starting up my school and learning more

0:23:070:23:10

about my culture and bringing all so people I've worked

0:23:100:23:13

with to help me start this school up and having them learn

0:23:130:23:16

about my culture.

0:23:160:23:17

Giving kids an opportunity to just have the chance,

0:23:170:23:19

to have that taste of opportunity that I have been growing up with.

0:23:190:23:23

I think everybody deserves a chance - "maybe I don't like to dance,

0:23:230:23:26

maybe I do like dancing, maybe I love to move this way."

0:23:260:23:30

Just to express themselves in a way where they don't have to talk.

0:23:300:23:33

And when you go back, because you say you will,

0:23:330:23:36

will you go back as an African?

0:23:360:23:43

Um, in what way?

0:23:430:23:44

Just in the way that you present yourself.

0:23:440:23:46

For example, the kids that you will talk about this amazing

0:23:460:23:49

story of yours to in Sierra Leone.

0:23:490:23:51

Will it be an African story?

0:23:510:23:53

I'm not quite sure, I haven't thought about it.

0:23:530:23:56

I'm going to pretty much explains to them how I got...

0:23:570:23:59

Where I came from, how I got to where I am today and see

0:23:590:24:03

if they accepted for what it is I guess that's it.

0:24:030:24:06

Well, it is an amazing, extraordinary story.

0:24:060:24:08

Thank you.

0:24:080:24:09

Michaela DePrince, thank you for being on HARDtalk.

0:24:090:24:12

Thank you so much.

0:24:120:24:14

Thank you.

0:24:140:24:14

Thank you very much indeed.

0:24:140:24:17

Hello there, good morning.

0:24:430:24:44

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