Fikile Mbalula, Police Minister of South Africa HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen Sackur. South Africa's ANC was once

seen as an inspirational model for Africa. Now it is becoming a

watchword for infighting, cronyism, corruption and the dangers of

1-party rule. President Jacob Zuma stands accused of abusing his power

not just by his enemies but by many erstwhile ANC colleagues. My guest

today, Fikile Mbalula, was made Police Minister in a recent

controversial Cabinet shakeup. As the scandals pile-up are we

witnessing the slow death of the ANC?

Fikile Mbalula, welcome to HARDtalk. Let's begin with a simple question,

there is no doubt the ANC government is in crisis, who do you believe has

the responsibility for that crisis? Well, I wouldn't say it is a crisis.

I would say we are undergoing some challenges in relation to what is

happening now. And I think it is a test of time, which has happened not

only now, over a period of time ANC has been tested. It has emerged

victorious at each turning point in terms of its history. Well, you call

it a challenge, I call it a crisis. I don't know what other word you

could use when even the vice president suggests that the actions

taken by his boss, the president, Jacob Zuma, have been unacceptable.

Well, the deputy president can express those views but we must

understand the president has his prerogative and they have been

placed in those positions by membership of the African National

Congress to lead, even in difficult times, even in times when you don't

necessarily agree with the decisions of the President or whoever but it

is President Zuma's time and he is entitled to those decisions, and

both by the guidance of the ANC Constitution and the national

conference resolution, to take a decision to reshuffle his cabinet

after consultation, that is what the resolution says. Yes, but minister,

he isn't, is he, entitled to reshuffle his cabinet, to fire his

respected finance minister and the deputy finance minister without

proper consultation with ANCA and Cabinet colleagues. And according to

both of the Deputy President and the Secretary General of the ANC, there

was no proper consultation before Mr Gordon and Mr Jonas were fired? They

are entitled to those views and to the descent. They probably don't

agree to the President, in terms of the shuffling -- dissent. But the

ANC resolutions say that the President after consultation will

basically exercise his prerogative. We have since reflected on that

matter and both the deputy president and the Secretary General have

ventilated, you know, their displeasure about certain issues.

But the ultimate end, we have cohered around the issue and we have

accepted that we have to move on and continue to build South Africa and

make a great country. A lot of people have not accepted that you

simply need to move on. I am thinking of the highly respected

senior and veteran liberation struggle is, they are in the party

integrity commission, who having watched the events of this

catastrophic reshuffle declared that President Jacob Zuma must go --

strugglers. Well, the integrity commission you are referring to has

never placed any report before us. We know that there was an attempt to

project the integrity commission. We have equally reflected on that.

There was no decision of the integrity committee that the

President must go. There are some veterans in our country and in our

movement who have over a period of time, for quite sometime now, taken

a position that the President must go. Yes, indeed. Ahmad Kathrada,

perhaps the most respected individual who sadly lost his life

recently. At the funeral his own words from a year ago were read out

from the congregation, which was a collection of the most senior and

respected ANC people. And when his words, a year ago, in which he said

that it is time for Jacob Zuma, for the good of the party, to resign the

leadership, when those words were read out there was applause and

there was cheering. It is clear that Jacob Zuma no longer commands the

support of many of the most loyal members of your party. It is not

correct, equally, that the president does not enjoy support. The motion

that the President must step down, it was tabled and it was defeated at

the level of the national executive committee. It was tabled in

parliament and it was defeated. So, the question that some among us have

got a different view, and they want the President to go, it is a

well-known, documented fact and it does not mean that a majority of ANC

members agree with that. We know as members of the ANC that it is a

national conference properly constituted and that if not,

branches of the ANC, through two thirds majority, that can call for a

conference and bake Mac -- basically asking to step down. We are going to

a conference of which President Zuma will step down as the President.

That is happening in less than six months from now. Going to the

national conference of the ANC in December. Yes, well, you are talking

about stepping down as leader of the ANC, you're not talking about

stepping down as the president of the country. And many in the country

feel that this sense of crisis in governance cannot be resolved

without the end of Zuma's presidency not least because it is about

something fundamental, the phrase we hear from your country so often,

that is state capture, there are so many allegations now of ways in

which the Zuma government has been captured by private interests,

wealthy individuals, cronies of the President, in ways that suggest

decision-making has been fundamentally corrupted. Well, we

know of those views but we know that the ANC is not captured in any way,

and we have also reflected, if you want to speak about the Guptas as a

movement, we have spoken about that at the national executive committee.

And indeed, we as members of the ANC, and in particularly the

national executive committee of the ANC, were not guided by a corrupt

acts nor cronyism. How can you tell me it is clear that the Zuma

government hasn't been captured by these powerful private interest when

we know that the former public protector, wrote a report which part

up evidence that stake capture was happening and that she said that we

now need in South Africa and independent judicial investigation.

That is a call that has been repeated in the recent past from

Cyril Ramaphosa and yet you have failed to establish this independent

judicial enquiry. Why? Steve, you will know that as much as there

seems to be an overwhelming view which is contested in our country,

Thulisile Nomkhosi's report is a subject of contestation. Remember,

there was a long debate and argument around that, including the evidence

that was supposed to be led and given by the President and by all

those who were actually implicated. So, it is not correct to suggest

that that report is cast in stone. The report is being contested by

people implicated in the report. The fact is, when we hear of stories

which have evidence base, of brown paper bag stuffed with cash being

offered to politicians if they will do the bidding of, and you name

them, they denied it, but you have named them, the Gupta family, then

it is clear that there is something rotten at the heart of the South

African government and without an independent Judicial Commission of

enquiry I am struggling to see how are to convince anybody that the

government is taking this seriously. If you talk about state capture and

you are not biased in relation to the Guptas, you will be very clear

that that report is under contestation. Those who gave

evidence, and they were given brown envelopes, have come to the fore.

Those matters will equally be tested going forward. That is in the

Judicial Commission of enquiry that has to be established. That report

equally is a matter of contestation. In terms of our laws... Minister,

minister, minister, you are the minister for police, so I know that

you regard procedure as very important. I am really asking you a

question about procedure which you are continuing to ignore. Cyril

Ramaphosa, the deputy president, has said that this story of brown

envelopes of cash being offered to politicians, it has basically become

a problem, he says, for us in the ruling party, it is critical that

these allegations of state capture be tested and put to rest because

they are, for us in the ANC, the elephant in the room. So, this is a

question of procedure, whether you are prepared to countenance an

independent judicial enquiry. Are you or are you not? None of us in

the ANC have contested that, and none of us are complicit in the

corruption. Cyril Ramaphosa, the deputy President, is articulating a

principled position in which all of us as public representatives will

condemn in the strongest terms any form of corruption including bribery

by anybody that would have been as reported in the state capture

report, it is what would have been undertaken. We have been very clear

with that. There is no point about it. All I am saying to you is that

the report state capture, as it stands in terms of facts, some of

the people implicated are contesting the veracity of those facts. And if

the Judicial Commission of enquiry will be established, the Judicial

Commission of enquiry will basically give the open space for everybody to

clear their names and those who are guilty to be dealt with by the rut

of the law. Well, because it hasn't been tested, I am not sure how you

can tell me that no one in the ANC government is corrupt or taking

backhanded sweeteners because the process hasn't been carried through

-- wrath. What I will tell you is your assurances to me that the ANC

leadership is united are clearly nonsensical because not only Anae

quoting to you Cyril Ramaphosa, who is demanding a proper investigation,

listen to these words from the ANC parliamentary chief chief whip

Jackson Mthembu, we are divided, we are busy scoring spectacular own

goals, and all that we are concerned about is accumulating wealth as if

there is no tomorrow. Yes, Jackson Mthembu might have expressed that

particular viewpoint. His views in relation to the matters of

corruption, they are not only a matter of concern. The state is

intact. The state has actually acted against the corrupt people whether

they wear our colours or not, or whatever ideological colour you want

to make us believe is that we ANC members and leaders were implicit in

corruption, we protect corruption, whereas that is not the case. We

have acted at every turn in relation to matters of corruption as guided

by our courts and where the state organs have had to arrest, including

members of the ANC, they have acted without any hindrance. I am simply

reporting to you the grave concerns of people inside your own party,

that is why I call this a crisis for the ANC. Let me try one more time

with you. The former ANC treasurer general, Mathews Phosa... Hang on a

second. He says this, we are not servants of the people any more in

the ANC. We have a president and when we plead with him to go these

days. My plea is this, for once, Mr President, serve your people and go

now because if you do not history will judge you to be the architect

of the destruction of the ANC. Mathews Phosa and whoever in

concert, they are not ANC. There is a lot of discipline numbers of the

ANC if you have not sought to express any view in the manner in

which some of the views have been expressed. You are telling me one of

the struggle is for the liberation of South Africa, he does not for you

represent the ANC, Cyril Ramaphosa? He is a leader but where I

correcting you is views expressed by individuals who are members of the

ANC did not necessarily represent what the ANC represents in the

National African Congress. If Mathews Phosa has a view about Zuma

to go, it is not the view that the majority of the ANC members have.

There is still debate not yet settled weather the next vote of

confidence or no-confidence in Jacob Zuma should be by secret ballot.

Those who want him to go believe that a secret that it would give

politicians much more freedom to express their real feelings about

Jacob Zuma. Let me put you on the spot, to use support the democratic

idea of a secret ballot? Our Constitution does not allow that in

terms of the voting process is in Parliament but equally, we have been

tested to their limit. To think that the African National Congress can

actually take a position to take itself out of power, simply because

the opposition wants that, we are here in Parliament as an date of all

voters and we will never take ourselves out of power because the

opposition would also never do that. If are a may say so, you strike the

is a senior member of cabin crew on the Titanic refusing to accept the

ship is going down. It is not just the opposition out to get Mr Zuma,

the South African federation of trade union, the South African

Communist Party, which is clearly lined up alongside the ANC, both

those institutions also said Jacob Zuma is to go. Baby gone to the

street to listen to people who say that President must not go. -- have

you gone. The view you are expressing is one-sided stop it is a

coalition of forces. It is not the view of the majority. I have seen

opinion polls,... Hang on. You asked me what I have seen. The latest TNS

poll says seven out of ten South Africans believe Jacob Zuma should

go. The economic situation seemed this disastrous cabinet reshuffle

has taken a new downward turn. We have had South African debt turned

into junk old status by SNP. -- junk bond. You have an unofficial

employment rate of 50%. You are now supervising economic as well as

political chaos. There is no political chaos. It is the wishes of

others that want this to be seen as that. It is important that everybody

comes to the party, in the interests of all South Africans and a national

interest to career around what is important around our country. In

relation to growth and employment creation has been a matter that has

been receiving all attention since 1994. Even the recession that we

have come to whip those exacerbated the situation. In this particular

instance, we are going to have to ensure we get out of the quagmire of

jobless growth and an economy which has not been assisted in terms of

employment creation. Leaders have looked at this downgrade and said

that people who will suffer... Hang on... This is the words of the

banking Association of South Africa, the people who will suffer are the

pork because they will feel interest rate rises and inflation rise. I say

to you, those economic experts you are talking about, do not speak

about them as though they do not have an ideological interest. They

do! And probably those of vested interests want to get rid of Jacob

Zuma. It means the State, in relation to the economy and the

poorest people, must continue to be perpetuated. The Zuma government

that is a leading talks radical transformation in the interest of

the poll, to ensure we redistribute land and our people become the

primary beneficiaries of that particular programme. Thanks of the

reshuffle, you are police Minister. South Africa is a terrible problem

of violence and insecurity. I am wondering if it was useful and wise

for you in one of your first statement as police Minister to talk

about instilling new levels of fear in criminals, telling the police

that if they are approached by violent criminals, the police should

outgun them, meet fire with fire. You are not given your guns as toys,

you told the police. Is that really the best way to address South

Africa's massive insecurity problem? That is probably the best way to

deal with violent crimes and violent criminals who terrorise our society

full of making our people gripped by fear. In fear of free movement. We

are steadfast and clear in relation to criminals within the context of

the law. It seemed to me there was something alarming and threatening

about your words. You talked about protesters and warned protesters not

to do damage during demonstrations and you said, I do not want another

Marikana, referring to the mass killing around the mine some time

ago, do not want another Marikana were police open fire and people

died. Suggesting your message to protesters in the future if they

might well face police who to quote you should not view their guns as

toys. No, no, no dog do not exaggerate situations. That message

is directed to the criminals. Criminals who are dangerous and

think they can run South Africa. I am very clear when it comes to

protesters, we are upgrading our approach in terms of our units and I

am saying that those units of the police that are supposed to deal

with specific dangerous crimes, will not come closer to ordinary South

Africans who are protesting. Minister Fikile Mbalula, we thank

you very much for joining us from Cape Town.

The weather contrast on Wednesday got a little bit more stark