14/12/2016 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The war in Yemen has killed

more than 10,000 civilians. That is an appalling number. But it may soon

be dwarfed by the numbers starving to death. Yemen is experiencing a

humanitarian catastrophe which the warring parties are making worse and

of which the outside world seems unwilling or unable to tackle. My

guest is the UN Humanitarian Coordinator in the country, Jamie

McGoldrick. Is he losing the struggle to save millions of lives?

Jamie McGoldrick, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Here use it on

a visit to the United Kingdom. -- you sit. Your bases in Yemen. What

is the right word to describe the situation in Yemen today? Is the

right word famine? Fountain will come if the conditions continued. --

Famine. The war, insecurity, the collapse of the economy, all of that

is lending to a situation where there is no choice but to slip into

it. 7 million people in the country already are in a fragile situation

in terms of the lack of security. If we cannot respond with medical

support and support in food and nutrition, they will famine by the

end of the year. Really? 7 million? I always feel that we start to talk

about salmon and we start to talk about these sorts of numbers and

there is a danger people around the world will feel that perhaps you are

exaggerating. -- famine. The idea of 7 million people facing the very

immediate and real danger of starvation to death is almost

unimaginable. Yeah. But it doesn't happen all at once. It happens

incrementally. Measures we have taken in communities in 59 districts

through the country, in the north and the south, shows quite clearly

the fragility of the communities, the families and individuals. If we

don't do something like give more money and response and humanitarian

assistance to those populations and at the same time don't give them the

health support, 50% of medical services and clinics no longer

function, if all of that is in place and we can do better in terms of

response, those fragile people will do better. Is this a man-made

catastrophe? Completely. This has nothing to do with nature. This is

completely to do with warring parties in the conflict they are not

doing what they are supposed to do, address the situation properly. The

international committee does not give us the resources we need to be

we have 50% funded of an appeal that requires $2.1 billion. If that is

the situation, those people who are the most vulnerable, those living

hand to mouth and who don't know where the next meal is coming from

and cannot feed their families, we cannot help them because we don't

have the resources and access. I want to unpick where the situation

is happening and where the blame lies. The degree to which people

care. This was said the other day. Yemen is the forgotten conflict.

Forgotten. Is that the way you feel about when you sit in your office in

Yemen? I would not have forgotten. I was a purposefully forgotten. --

would say. Yemen, you have other crises in the region which are

overshadowing it. There is more involved. More is given to Hom and

Aleppo. Did you feel that that you are not getting a message across? I

know you are in HARDtalk today, but you, not just you, the international

humanitarian machinery, including the United Nations and all those

agencies, they have failed. We have failed because we do not have the

resources. It is not that we are not telling the story properly, the

parties don't want the story told. Who doesn't want the story told? You

talk about the suffering. The suffering is coming from the warring

parties. Let us name them. The Houthis and the other. It is because

of that. We need to do something to get that story out and alert the

world to the magnitude of the suffering. 7 million people cannot

feed their families. 500,000 children under five are still

illegal pictures you see on TV in any crisis. -- are those skeletal.

You talk about the Houthi rebels, the government, which now sits in

Aden because it had to quit Sana'a, and the third element, the Saudi-led

coalition. They are the outsiders in the conflict. You are pointing the

finger at the richest country in the Middle East as being directly

responsible for keeping this crisis outside public view. Is that what

you are saying? What we are saying is right now the parties involved in

the conflict don't really care at all about the people they say they

represent. So we have a situation where you have millions and millions

of people, up to 90 million people, who need some form of assistance. We

cannot get resources to them. -- 19 million. We don't have the funds.

Because of that, people, of no fault of their own, represented by some of

these groups, supposedly represented in political discussions by these

groups, they are abandoned to the rain fade, which is starvation. If

that is all true, and you are passionate about it, why did your

boss, after a donors conference the other day, and to raise more than $2

billion to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Yemen? Why

did he come away from it saying it was an outstanding success when the

pledges you got only a matter to half of what you wanted. It was an

outstanding success because people came around the table for the first

time to talk about the humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen, that hasn't

been done... Hang on. The message delivered to the potential donors

was these people are at risk of starvation and famine right now, and

unless you make good on some financial pledges, they will die of

the end you only got half of what you wanted, and you call that a

success. -- die. If we can turn those pledges in the real cash and

deliver assistance to those people and start saving lives, that is a

strong message for the second half of the year. That is a very big if.

Isn't it? Look at the reality. Look at all of northern Nigeria, Syria,

the conflict there, Afghanistan, all those! Watch chance have you got,

not even of getting to the $2 billion you say you need, but also

the 1 billion you said you got the other day. What we hope is that we

can deliver, which we are doing well, despite all the circumstances.

And if we have more resources, we can save more lives. People are

willing to invest in that. We have things set up. We are saving lives

and are delivering food to 3 million people a month. Water, sanitation,

and health, to millions every month. We have more opportunity to save

lives. Why would, frankly, international donors feel it is

worth pouring resources into Yemen when one looks at the reports from

the ground and it is clear that the warring parties, and you name the

Saudi-led coalition, so let us stick with them, are using aerial

bombardment to sit civilian targets. Now, -- hit. Now, they deny they do

it deliberately, but the facts on the ground is clear. Many, including

children and women in hospitals, have been killed by the Saudi-led

coalition. All parties in this conflict have a blatant disregard to

do with anything to do with civilians and infrastructure. Just

as you mentioned. 1600 kids have been used for recruitment is to

military forces. -- recruitments. One of the actual motives of this

crisis, I think, is completely disregarding the responsibilities of

the Geneva Conventions. You want money! Yes. You want money to

rebuild hospitals and finance the saving of lives. That, of course,

means healthcare. If you look at what was said by the most recent UN

sponsored watchlist report, what is happening on the ground, they say,

quote, the coalition is responsible for repeated attacks on medical

facilities and staff. They are leading these attacks to the closure

of hospitals, compromise in -- compromise on children's access to

medicine. Are you really going to get more money from donors? We will,

because of the UN's necessity to do this. The more we get, the more we

can do in response to this. On the military side of things, it is not

my concern. My concern is the impact. It has to

be concerned. I want all parties of the conflict to understand

obligations and accept them. Is it time for you to speak out and say,

do you know what, there are things on the ground I have seen and which

might have seen which are tantamount to war crimes. You have seen the

reports. They are already there. I am asking you. I have seen the

humanitarian impact of the airstrikes, shelling, all that. I

have seen the impact. Who was responsible? I would lived up to the

other parties, international community is. -- leave it to. The

Secretary General... Let me ask you a question. This is what the Saudi

UN ambassador said, the accusation of these reports that we have

attacked and bombarded civilian targets, including healthcare

facilities, are unfounded. We have exercised maximum restraint and

rigourous rules of engagement. What is your response to that? That is

the response from the outside... Is it true? Facts on the ground and

reports say there need to be more investigations and legally sound

arguments to say this has happened to be that has not happened because

we don't have monitors and people the ground. I have no way of proving

that. No one has that technical judgement and ability to make that.

I absolutely understand your job is to co-ordinate the humanitarian

efforts. There is a much you can do about the conflict in Yemen or say.

But the United States is, it seems, more keen than ever to back the

Saudis in this, and it is, a regional conflict. Does that concern

you? Anything that contributes to the conflict continuing is what I

would worry about because of the impact it has on the lives of

people. People are completely powerless. Anything that adds more

fuel to that fire and more arms to that fight would make the conflict

exacerbated and make it difficult for us and make it difficult for a

population to survive this and they are fragile anyway. A picture of

what you actually can do on the ground right now. Sana'a is occupied

by Houthi forces. There are pockets of conflict all around the country.

Some territory is still held by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

There is talk also of so-called Islamic State having a presence in

Yemen today. Realistically, what can you actually do and deliver? Well,

the UN and its partners, the NGOs, Red Cross, and other, we have five

bases, the north, south, east, west, and metal. We are through the

country entirely. -- middle. There is no problem getting to people. The

problem is that there is interference, the version,

blockages. The biggest issue apart from that is resources. If we don't

have resources, it doesn't matter how many people around the ground if

we cannot deliver them to be we need resources to save lives. Is it just

resources? For example,, I know that the most important facilities get

aid into the country, for example, Hadeda. It has been bombed. Five of

the cranes that lift goods out of the ships in the port are not in

operation. It isn't just about money.

Is very much a topical issue right now. We need that port because of

the proximity to the population. The location and the fact that it has

the capacity to offload both commercial and humanitarian goods.

This is a company that relied on 90% of its imports to survive. If that

doesn't work, then there is a problem for people to access

humanitarian goods. Saudi coalitions as, we cannot, at the moment, stand

by and let the port do what it does, because we know that the Houthi

rebels are shipping significant amount of arms through that port. I

think people know that the arms do not just come through those ports,

there are many ways they can get into the country. Yemen is awash

with weapons and ammunition, it has been for decades. Everyone in the

country has a gun, that is the kind of country -- The Saudi coalition.

What you have to think about is we yourself and a significant UN

presence may be required inside the port to stop that. Are you prepared

to go in, monitor, it inspect and manage the port so that it will be

an easier route for the aid to reach the country? -- inspect. We want the

port not to be hurt any further, we do not want a military intervention.

At the conference in Geneva, key member states all made this plea to

say that the port should be protected because of the assistance

it gives the population. Anything that the UN can do to prevent that,

discussion for all parties involved, the authorities and the Saudi

coalition, a conversation would have to take place for us to be able to

deliver humanitarian aid. You told us that there are 7 million people

who are on the brink of starvation, who don't know whether they will

have enough to eat tomorrow. There is not enough time for a long winded

negotiations. Port is still functioning, but in a diminished

way. We are looking at other ways to bring food into the country. Plans

will be put in place in case the port gets embroiled in a military

conflict. We just think it should not because it is so important. We

know from Saudi officials that they have gathered forces within military

reach of the port. What is your message to them? The same message

that Angela Merkel made the other day, there is no military solution.

No one has won anything of great note as yet. We have come to a

situation where we are stymied. We are looking for that not to need to

go any further, to come up with a solution for that port to remain a

vector for ice to deliver assistance to the population in need. I don't

think a military campaign will make any difference. I don't think we can

see a victory there. I don't think it will be the tipping point that

will bring about a game changed, it will be hard fought by all sides.

Negotiations tend to get somewhere when all sides come to a realisation

that there is not going to be a military victory. Do you think we

have got there? I think that countries would look back and think,

in two years, what have we gained? What we need to do is get the

international community to put pressure on those parties to get

back to negotiations. There is no military or humanitarian solution to

this crisis. We are just keeping people alive. Parties must

understand this is the only way forward. It takes them to start to

said to themselves, you never hear political leaders saying anything

about this human suffering. There is a regional political interest, and

we are looking for an opportunity to get people back to the table, stop

the war, silenced the guns, give us a ceasefire and give us the

resources. What you're saying is deeply depressing, that the parties

to the conflict, not just talking about the Yemeni parties, but none

of them really consider all frankly, care, about the humanitarian

suffering in the country. I would say that's true. Would you say

that's true of, talking about Saudi Arabia, one of the closest strategic

partners of the Saudi Arabian government is the United States

government, the UK government also backs the Saudi Arabian government.

I think it is one of the inconsistencies you find in

conflicts in the Middle East, you get different parts of government is

supporting different aspects of the conflict. It is unfortunate, on one

hand we are supported in the humanitarian point of view by the

parties to keep the conflict moving. I am trying to be to sitting in your

office, responsible for staff in five countries, people telling you

that the situation is deteriorating and thousands are suffering. What

kind of poll does it take on new? I think it galvanises you and makes

you harder and stronger, trying to fix it. The UN is the only

international body inside the country, there is a lot of pressure

on us and a lot of things we should be doing more of. What I would do

is, I go out to some of these areas. I went out two weeks ago to be on

clay for the city which is closed. It took me nine and a half months to

negotiate entry. There is some hope there, but you also see some

negative elements. You see children dying of Armenia because there are

no salaries for staff and no medicine. At the same time, you see

expensive cars. That inconsistency is unfortunate and inhumane. It is

my job to wake up in the morning, bang on the doors and push on with

the team that is there. I understand that Desire just to push on, but

there are some extraordinary figures. 462,000 babies and young

children under the age of five are at a real threat of death because

they are suffering from acute, severe malnutrition. That suggests

that all of the work you are trying to do, you are failing. Are failing

because not getting to the people with the resources quickly enough.

If you look at some of the figures and trends, while the severe

malnutrition has not, it has not gone that greatly more than it was

two years ago, we have still made a difference. We have an immense task

ahead of us. There are children dying, or one child every ten

minutes. In this programme, children who have died through preventable

diseases in a hospital, if they get to the hospital, the hospital is not

working. Or, there is no medicine in the hospital. So, there are people

dying in villages all around the country, and nobody is recording the

deaths. Not because of the conflict, but because of the consequences of

the conflict and the economy not working. Famine, water problems,

health problems, they kill people on a very regular basis. This cannot be

properly tackled unless there is an end to the walkways alow totally.

There is no meaningful peace process right now. You would need to get

some kind of peace process going, that has failed. How bleak, how

depressed are you right now? You would be normally, but last week I

was quite pleasantly surprised by the force of support that came to

us. A better understanding and qualification of what is behind it.

At the same time, quite a decent response to the appeal for $1.1

billion. The talk in the room, conversations that critical

settlement is required... One crucial moment in our exchange, you

told me that you don't think any party in this conflict really cares

about the scale of suffering. So it will go on? No, what is happening is

a tailspin of deterioration of the humanitarian population. The

responsibility for that relies with all the parties involved in that --

lies. They have to say, enough is enough. The people in Yemen have

said that, they can't take this any more. They are at breaking point.

They have sold their land, children get married much younger, people are

suffering. I think we are at breaking point. If we don't stop

that soon, nobody knows what will happen in Yemen. Political and

otherwise. It could be damaged irreconcilable, nobody knows. Jamie

McGoldrick, we have to end there, but thank you for being on HARDtalk

thank you. -- HARDtalk. Thank you.