14/12/2016 HARDtalk


14/12/2016

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The war in Yemen has killed

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more than 10,000 civilians. That is an appalling number. But it may soon

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be dwarfed by the numbers starving to death. Yemen is experiencing a

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humanitarian catastrophe which the warring parties are making worse and

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of which the outside world seems unwilling or unable to tackle. My

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guest is the UN Humanitarian Coordinator in the country, Jamie

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McGoldrick. Is he losing the struggle to save millions of lives?

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Jamie McGoldrick, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Here use it on

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a visit to the United Kingdom. -- you sit. Your bases in Yemen. What

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is the right word to describe the situation in Yemen today? Is the

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right word famine? Fountain will come if the conditions continued. --

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Famine. The war, insecurity, the collapse of the economy, all of that

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is lending to a situation where there is no choice but to slip into

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it. 7 million people in the country already are in a fragile situation

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in terms of the lack of security. If we cannot respond with medical

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support and support in food and nutrition, they will famine by the

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end of the year. Really? 7 million? I always feel that we start to talk

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about salmon and we start to talk about these sorts of numbers and

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there is a danger people around the world will feel that perhaps you are

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exaggerating. -- famine. The idea of 7 million people facing the very

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immediate and real danger of starvation to death is almost

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unimaginable. Yeah. But it doesn't happen all at once. It happens

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incrementally. Measures we have taken in communities in 59 districts

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through the country, in the north and the south, shows quite clearly

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the fragility of the communities, the families and individuals. If we

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don't do something like give more money and response and humanitarian

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assistance to those populations and at the same time don't give them the

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health support, 50% of medical services and clinics no longer

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function, if all of that is in place and we can do better in terms of

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response, those fragile people will do better. Is this a man-made

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catastrophe? Completely. This has nothing to do with nature. This is

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completely to do with warring parties in the conflict they are not

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doing what they are supposed to do, address the situation properly. The

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international committee does not give us the resources we need to be

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we have 50% funded of an appeal that requires $2.1 billion. If that is

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the situation, those people who are the most vulnerable, those living

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hand to mouth and who don't know where the next meal is coming from

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and cannot feed their families, we cannot help them because we don't

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have the resources and access. I want to unpick where the situation

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is happening and where the blame lies. The degree to which people

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care. This was said the other day. Yemen is the forgotten conflict.

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Forgotten. Is that the way you feel about when you sit in your office in

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Yemen? I would not have forgotten. I was a purposefully forgotten. --

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would say. Yemen, you have other crises in the region which are

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overshadowing it. There is more involved. More is given to Hom and

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Aleppo. Did you feel that that you are not getting a message across? I

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know you are in HARDtalk today, but you, not just you, the international

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humanitarian machinery, including the United Nations and all those

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agencies, they have failed. We have failed because we do not have the

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resources. It is not that we are not telling the story properly, the

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parties don't want the story told. Who doesn't want the story told? You

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talk about the suffering. The suffering is coming from the warring

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parties. Let us name them. The Houthis and the other. It is because

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of that. We need to do something to get that story out and alert the

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world to the magnitude of the suffering. 7 million people cannot

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feed their families. 500,000 children under five are still

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illegal pictures you see on TV in any crisis. -- are those skeletal.

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You talk about the Houthi rebels, the government, which now sits in

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Aden because it had to quit Sana'a, and the third element, the Saudi-led

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coalition. They are the outsiders in the conflict. You are pointing the

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finger at the richest country in the Middle East as being directly

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responsible for keeping this crisis outside public view. Is that what

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you are saying? What we are saying is right now the parties involved in

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the conflict don't really care at all about the people they say they

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represent. So we have a situation where you have millions and millions

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of people, up to 90 million people, who need some form of assistance. We

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cannot get resources to them. -- 19 million. We don't have the funds.

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Because of that, people, of no fault of their own, represented by some of

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these groups, supposedly represented in political discussions by these

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groups, they are abandoned to the rain fade, which is starvation. If

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that is all true, and you are passionate about it, why did your

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boss, after a donors conference the other day, and to raise more than $2

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billion to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Yemen? Why

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did he come away from it saying it was an outstanding success when the

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pledges you got only a matter to half of what you wanted. It was an

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outstanding success because people came around the table for the first

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time to talk about the humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen, that hasn't

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been done... Hang on. The message delivered to the potential donors

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was these people are at risk of starvation and famine right now, and

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unless you make good on some financial pledges, they will die of

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the end you only got half of what you wanted, and you call that a

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success. -- die. If we can turn those pledges in the real cash and

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deliver assistance to those people and start saving lives, that is a

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strong message for the second half of the year. That is a very big if.

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Isn't it? Look at the reality. Look at all of northern Nigeria, Syria,

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the conflict there, Afghanistan, all those! Watch chance have you got,

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not even of getting to the $2 billion you say you need, but also

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the 1 billion you said you got the other day. What we hope is that we

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can deliver, which we are doing well, despite all the circumstances.

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And if we have more resources, we can save more lives. People are

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willing to invest in that. We have things set up. We are saving lives

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and are delivering food to 3 million people a month. Water, sanitation,

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and health, to millions every month. We have more opportunity to save

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lives. Why would, frankly, international donors feel it is

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worth pouring resources into Yemen when one looks at the reports from

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the ground and it is clear that the warring parties, and you name the

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Saudi-led coalition, so let us stick with them, are using aerial

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bombardment to sit civilian targets. Now, -- hit. Now, they deny they do

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it deliberately, but the facts on the ground is clear. Many, including

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children and women in hospitals, have been killed by the Saudi-led

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coalition. All parties in this conflict have a blatant disregard to

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do with anything to do with civilians and infrastructure. Just

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as you mentioned. 1600 kids have been used for recruitment is to

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military forces. -- recruitments. One of the actual motives of this

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crisis, I think, is completely disregarding the responsibilities of

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the Geneva Conventions. You want money! Yes. You want money to

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rebuild hospitals and finance the saving of lives. That, of course,

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means healthcare. If you look at what was said by the most recent UN

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sponsored watchlist report, what is happening on the ground, they say,

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quote, the coalition is responsible for repeated attacks on medical

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facilities and staff. They are leading these attacks to the closure

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of hospitals, compromise in -- compromise on children's access to

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medicine. Are you really going to get more money from donors? We will,

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because of the UN's necessity to do this. The more we get, the more we

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can do in response to this. On the military side of things, it is not

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my concern. My concern is the impact. It has to

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be concerned. I want all parties of the conflict to understand

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obligations and accept them. Is it time for you to speak out and say,

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do you know what, there are things on the ground I have seen and which

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might have seen which are tantamount to war crimes. You have seen the

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reports. They are already there. I am asking you. I have seen the

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humanitarian impact of the airstrikes, shelling, all that. I

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have seen the impact. Who was responsible? I would lived up to the

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other parties, international community is. -- leave it to. The

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Secretary General... Let me ask you a question. This is what the Saudi

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UN ambassador said, the accusation of these reports that we have

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attacked and bombarded civilian targets, including healthcare

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facilities, are unfounded. We have exercised maximum restraint and

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rigourous rules of engagement. What is your response to that? That is

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the response from the outside... Is it true? Facts on the ground and

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reports say there need to be more investigations and legally sound

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arguments to say this has happened to be that has not happened because

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we don't have monitors and people the ground. I have no way of proving

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that. No one has that technical judgement and ability to make that.

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I absolutely understand your job is to co-ordinate the humanitarian

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efforts. There is a much you can do about the conflict in Yemen or say.

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But the United States is, it seems, more keen than ever to back the

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Saudis in this, and it is, a regional conflict. Does that concern

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you? Anything that contributes to the conflict continuing is what I

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would worry about because of the impact it has on the lives of

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people. People are completely powerless. Anything that adds more

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fuel to that fire and more arms to that fight would make the conflict

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exacerbated and make it difficult for us and make it difficult for a

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population to survive this and they are fragile anyway. A picture of

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what you actually can do on the ground right now. Sana'a is occupied

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by Houthi forces. There are pockets of conflict all around the country.

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Some territory is still held by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

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There is talk also of so-called Islamic State having a presence in

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Yemen today. Realistically, what can you actually do and deliver? Well,

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the UN and its partners, the NGOs, Red Cross, and other, we have five

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bases, the north, south, east, west, and metal. We are through the

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country entirely. -- middle. There is no problem getting to people. The

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problem is that there is interference, the version,

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blockages. The biggest issue apart from that is resources. If we don't

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have resources, it doesn't matter how many people around the ground if

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we cannot deliver them to be we need resources to save lives. Is it just

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resources? For example,, I know that the most important facilities get

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aid into the country, for example, Hadeda. It has been bombed. Five of

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the cranes that lift goods out of the ships in the port are not in

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operation. It isn't just about money.

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Is very much a topical issue right now. We need that port because of

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the proximity to the population. The location and the fact that it has

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the capacity to offload both commercial and humanitarian goods.

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This is a company that relied on 90% of its imports to survive. If that

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doesn't work, then there is a problem for people to access

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humanitarian goods. Saudi coalitions as, we cannot, at the moment, stand

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by and let the port do what it does, because we know that the Houthi

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rebels are shipping significant amount of arms through that port. I

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think people know that the arms do not just come through those ports,

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there are many ways they can get into the country. Yemen is awash

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with weapons and ammunition, it has been for decades. Everyone in the

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country has a gun, that is the kind of country -- The Saudi coalition.

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What you have to think about is we yourself and a significant UN

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presence may be required inside the port to stop that. Are you prepared

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to go in, monitor, it inspect and manage the port so that it will be

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an easier route for the aid to reach the country? -- inspect. We want the

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port not to be hurt any further, we do not want a military intervention.

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At the conference in Geneva, key member states all made this plea to

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say that the port should be protected because of the assistance

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it gives the population. Anything that the UN can do to prevent that,

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discussion for all parties involved, the authorities and the Saudi

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coalition, a conversation would have to take place for us to be able to

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deliver humanitarian aid. You told us that there are 7 million people

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who are on the brink of starvation, who don't know whether they will

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have enough to eat tomorrow. There is not enough time for a long winded

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negotiations. Port is still functioning, but in a diminished

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way. We are looking at other ways to bring food into the country. Plans

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will be put in place in case the port gets embroiled in a military

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conflict. We just think it should not because it is so important. We

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know from Saudi officials that they have gathered forces within military

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reach of the port. What is your message to them? The same message

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that Angela Merkel made the other day, there is no military solution.

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No one has won anything of great note as yet. We have come to a

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situation where we are stymied. We are looking for that not to need to

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go any further, to come up with a solution for that port to remain a

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vector for ice to deliver assistance to the population in need. I don't

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think a military campaign will make any difference. I don't think we can

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see a victory there. I don't think it will be the tipping point that

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will bring about a game changed, it will be hard fought by all sides.

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Negotiations tend to get somewhere when all sides come to a realisation

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that there is not going to be a military victory. Do you think we

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have got there? I think that countries would look back and think,

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in two years, what have we gained? What we need to do is get the

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international community to put pressure on those parties to get

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back to negotiations. There is no military or humanitarian solution to

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this crisis. We are just keeping people alive. Parties must

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understand this is the only way forward. It takes them to start to

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said to themselves, you never hear political leaders saying anything

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about this human suffering. There is a regional political interest, and

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we are looking for an opportunity to get people back to the table, stop

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the war, silenced the guns, give us a ceasefire and give us the

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resources. What you're saying is deeply depressing, that the parties

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to the conflict, not just talking about the Yemeni parties, but none

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of them really consider all frankly, care, about the humanitarian

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suffering in the country. I would say that's true. Would you say

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that's true of, talking about Saudi Arabia, one of the closest strategic

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partners of the Saudi Arabian government is the United States

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government, the UK government also backs the Saudi Arabian government.

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I think it is one of the inconsistencies you find in

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conflicts in the Middle East, you get different parts of government is

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supporting different aspects of the conflict. It is unfortunate, on one

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hand we are supported in the humanitarian point of view by the

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parties to keep the conflict moving. I am trying to be to sitting in your

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office, responsible for staff in five countries, people telling you

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that the situation is deteriorating and thousands are suffering. What

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kind of poll does it take on new? I think it galvanises you and makes

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you harder and stronger, trying to fix it. The UN is the only

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international body inside the country, there is a lot of pressure

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on us and a lot of things we should be doing more of. What I would do

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is, I go out to some of these areas. I went out two weeks ago to be on

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clay for the city which is closed. It took me nine and a half months to

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negotiate entry. There is some hope there, but you also see some

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negative elements. You see children dying of Armenia because there are

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no salaries for staff and no medicine. At the same time, you see

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expensive cars. That inconsistency is unfortunate and inhumane. It is

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my job to wake up in the morning, bang on the doors and push on with

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the team that is there. I understand that Desire just to push on, but

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there are some extraordinary figures. 462,000 babies and young

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children under the age of five are at a real threat of death because

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they are suffering from acute, severe malnutrition. That suggests

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that all of the work you are trying to do, you are failing. Are failing

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because not getting to the people with the resources quickly enough.

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If you look at some of the figures and trends, while the severe

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malnutrition has not, it has not gone that greatly more than it was

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two years ago, we have still made a difference. We have an immense task

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ahead of us. There are children dying, or one child every ten

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minutes. In this programme, children who have died through preventable

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diseases in a hospital, if they get to the hospital, the hospital is not

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working. Or, there is no medicine in the hospital. So, there are people

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dying in villages all around the country, and nobody is recording the

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deaths. Not because of the conflict, but because of the consequences of

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the conflict and the economy not working. Famine, water problems,

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health problems, they kill people on a very regular basis. This cannot be

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properly tackled unless there is an end to the walkways alow totally.

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There is no meaningful peace process right now. You would need to get

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some kind of peace process going, that has failed. How bleak, how

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depressed are you right now? You would be normally, but last week I

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was quite pleasantly surprised by the force of support that came to

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us. A better understanding and qualification of what is behind it.

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At the same time, quite a decent response to the appeal for $1.1

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billion. The talk in the room, conversations that critical

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settlement is required... One crucial moment in our exchange, you

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told me that you don't think any party in this conflict really cares

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about the scale of suffering. So it will go on? No, what is happening is

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a tailspin of deterioration of the humanitarian population. The

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responsibility for that relies with all the parties involved in that --

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lies. They have to say, enough is enough. The people in Yemen have

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said that, they can't take this any more. They are at breaking point.

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They have sold their land, children get married much younger, people are

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suffering. I think we are at breaking point. If we don't stop

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that soon, nobody knows what will happen in Yemen. Political and

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otherwise. It could be damaged irreconcilable, nobody knows. Jamie

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McGoldrick, we have to end there, but thank you for being on HARDtalk

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thank you. -- HARDtalk. Thank you.

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