Bernie Sanders, US politician HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, from the Hay Literary Festival,

in Wales. Today I'm joined by a packed

audience eager to hear from the American politician

who defied conventional wisdom to inject passion and radicalism

into last year's US presidential election.

No, not Donald Trump but the self-styled socialist

who challenged Hillary Clinton for the Democratic party nomination,

Bernie Sanders. His movement did not carry him

all the way to the White House but has he planted the seed of

a revolution in American politics? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE.

Bernie Sanders, welcome to HARDtalk.

Great to be with you. I think we have to begin by reflect

things on what happened in November, 2016.

Can you explain to me and explain to this audience how come

Donald Trump was put into the White House by voters,

many of whom were those working-class, blue-collar Americans

that your campaign was all about? Explain it.

Let me explain it in two ways. First of all, it is important

for everyone to remember that, while Donald Trump of course one

the presidency because he won the majority of the Electoral

College, he lost the popular vote by almost 3 million votes so 3

million more people voted for Clinton then voted for Trump.

Number two, I think and what I say very often, is that it wasn't

so much that Trump - who by the way was the most

unpopular candidate for president in the history of the United States,

very unpopular - it was not so much that Trump won

but that the Democratic Party lost. And by that I mean,

not just the presidential election, the Republicans now control the US

House, the US Senate, almost two thirds of the governage

chairs in America and in the last nine years, running against a party

that has moved extremely far to the right, the Republicans,

Democrats have lost almost 1,000 seats in state

legislatures throughout America. So the real question to be asked is,

what has happened to the Democratic Party?

Why is its strategy and its message failing to such a significant

degree? Second part of the answer is that,

and tied to the first part, is that while the economy

in the United States under President Obama absolutely improved

over that eight year period - unemployment went down,

deficit went down, a lot of other improvements - the truth

of the matter is that millions and millions of Americans were left

behind amidst the global economy. In other words, what Trump saw

is there was a level of desperation not been dealt

with by the Democrats. Do you accept a level

of responsibility for what you call the failure of the Democratic Party?

I mean, I know you ran against Hillary and you portrayed

Hillary Clinton as, frankly, part of the problem,

as an elitist Democrat who was out of touch with ordinary Americans.

You said she was far too much in hock to Wall Street and the big

financiers and the corporate interests.

But in the end, you backed Hillary and do you accept your part

of responsibility in the Democratic failure?

No, actually, I think that the transition

in the Democratic Party that we are seeing today echoes much

of what I have been saying for the last 25 years and I think

what Democrats now understand is you cannot go to working people

who are living in desperation and say that you are for them

at the same time as you are taking huge amounts of money

from Wall Street, the insurance companies, the drug companies

and the fossil fuel industry. But do you in any way regret

the lumps you kicked out of Hillary Clinton?

Because if you had not, she might be in the White House?

No, I do not accept that at all and what I accept is the fact

that our campaign brought millions and millions of people

into the political process. Donald Trump did not need me

to understand that Hillary Clinton gave speeches before Wall Street.

Did not need me to understand Hillary Clinton's record.

What we did in our campaign, to a large degree, is created

a whole lot of excitement and some of that excitement came

into the Democratic Party and came into the Hillary Clinton's campaign.

You have an analysis of politics, not just in America

but across the world, but let's just stick to America

for the moment. It seems to me, in a sense,

quite old-fashioned. You talk a lot about class...

That is old fashion! LAUGHTER.

If it is old-fashioned to say that the very rich are getting

richer while most everybody else is getting poorer,

if that's old-fashioned, then old fashioned is absolutely correct.

The truth is, not that my ideas are old, but the truth is that

politicians all over this world are running away from the basic

issue that billionaires increasingly control economies and political

systems all over the world. But hang on a minute,...

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Working-class Americans...

APPLAUSE ... Working-class Americans

in their hundreds and thousands made millions in states like Michigan,

Wisconsin, and the so-called rust belt of America, they voted

for a billionaire. And to my mind, the major reason

many working-class people voted for Donald Trump is the following -

as I said a moment ago, the economy improved under Obama

but the truth is that many people were left behind so you have

over the last 40 years, tens of thousands of factories

in the United States that once provided people with decent wages,

decent efforts, they are gone and you have towns in America

where Main Street is boarded up, where young people are

leaving those towns. You have half of all the workers

in America today, as they approached retirement age, do you know how much

money they have in the bank when they are 66 -

over half of all American workers - they have nothing in the bank.

They are scared to death. You have young people

leaving school $40,000, $50,000 in debt or more

so my response to you is there is a lot of pain in America

and Donald Trump addressed that pain and he said, I am going to be

a different type of Republican. I hear your pain.

I am going to take on the establishment,

the politics, the political establishment, the economic

establishment. Do you know what the

only problem was? Donald Trump lied and he had no

intention of doing it. He didn't lie on everything

and on some issues he actually was not 1 million miles

from Bernie Sanders. He railed against globalisation,

he railed against the trade deal deals which Obama and the Clintons

had back, including the North American Free Trade

Agreement, the Trans-Pacific Partnership...

Yep... In just the same way that you did

and he has not lied, he has delivered.

He has backed off the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

He says he is going to renegotiate Nafta.

And in that way it seems to me your class-based analysis

and your left- right language doesn't actually explain

what is happening in America. I think it does explain it.

The fact that Trump understood that when we are running up huge trade

deficit, when many corporations are shutting down and moving

to China and Mexico and throwing American workers out on the street

because they can get cheap Labour abroad,

it is true that many Democrats supported that,

it is true that Bill Clinton, under the Clinton administration did

that as well. I voted against that.

And you are right, Trump is right to point out that those trade

policies have been extremely bad but where he lied,

where he lied is he said, I'm going to be on the side

of working people. Well, he is not.

If you look at the health-care proposal that he is supporting,

if you look at the budget that he is supporting,

these are disastrous proposals for the working people

of this country. It's not even just

about economics, is it? It's about culture and identity

as well and it seems to me that Donald Trump, even though

he is mega- wealthy, he's very anti- elite.

He hates the elites, at least he says he does.

Really? That's news for the Well,

American people. He just appointed virtually all

of the elite to his administration. He has more billionaires

in his administration than any president in the history

of the United States. But my point is not really

about Trump, it's getting back to your analysis of...

I was going to say of your own party but interestingly you are actually

an Independent who chose to fight in the aquatic primary...

That's right. You are not a long

signed up Democrat. But if you look at the language

of Hillary Clinton, she used the word deplorable

is about Trump supporters. Look at Barack Obama after one

of the terrible gun murder incident in the United States,

he talked about bitter people living in middle America with their guns

and their religion. Words that he later regretted but it

suggests that there is something about the Liberal professional

outlook which does not connect with ordinary folks in much

of your country and I am not sure that even you necessarily connect

with some of those people either. Well, thank you, but I would

respectfully disagree. I think we do pretty well

with working people throughout the United States of America

and I think that many working people understand that the recent

being profoundly wrong -- there is. when they are working

longer hours for low wages and, in the United States,

52% of all new income is going to the top 1%.

The American worker understands there is something absurd

about the fact that he or she cannot afford to send their kids to college

by the United States college bailed out the crooks on Wall Street

so I think we do a pretty good job. Not perfect but I proud

of the record that I have in support from so many unions

and millions of working people throughout my country.

Do you still call yourself a democratic socialist?

Absolutely. For you, redistribution

is a key to economic reform? I think, Stephen, that

from an economic and moral - the Pope, Pope Francis,

who have a lot of respect for, raises this issue on a very profound

way - we as a nation, my country, has got to ask ourselves

about the morality of the situation where the top one tenth of 1% now

owns more wealth or as much wealth as the bottom 90%.

Where 52% of all new income goes to the top 1%.

Where globally the top 1% now owns more wealth than the bottom 99%.

I am less interested in the top 1%, all 0.1% billionaires

and multi- millionaire 's, I am interested in professional

people who, in the United States, might be earning $100,000 a year,

in the UK it might be ?80,000, whatever, here is the problem

and there are some fascinating results just done

by the New York Times, looking at the Democratic Party...

I saw that article. You saw that article.

It was one of the dumber article is I have read

in a long time. Let me just quote a little bit

of it, for you and the audience. Those in the top 10% on the income

distribution voted 47% for Clinton is against 46% for Trump.

In other words, the rich and the professional and the moneyed

and the comfortable are Democrats just as much if not more

than they're Republicans. So it is not about

them and us any more... Stephen, I happen not to consider

somebody who makes a year rich. What I happen to be terribly

concerned about, and we cannot run away from this issue,

you may not be concerned about alien -- billionaires, I think you

should because I think growth in the United States

in the last 17 years, you know what we've seen?

We have seen the middle-class shrinking, we have seen 33 million

people living in poverty and we have seen at ten times increase

in the number of billionaires. Let me interrupted for a sec.

What I'm concerned about is where you win or you gather together

a winning coalition of voters because, for all of your

achievements in 2016, you didn't win and Donald Trump

is in the White House so going forward, how does the left,

the sort of people who support your views, how do you translate big

support, young people coming, flocking to your rallies

and everything else, how do you transport that

into a winning formula because you have got to innocent

is persuade people who are comfortably off

to be altruistic... No, no, no, no,...

I understand that article and it really is quite incorrect.

What the article got wrong is that it said Bernie Sanders

is going to tax everybody. What they forgot to talk

about in the article, by the way we're writing a response

to that, is that much of the tax revenue goes to providing healthcare

to all people and will save tens of millions of middle-class families

substantial sums of money. Right now, you have the middle-class

family, and again, I know it is hard for folks in the UK to understand

this absurdity, but in America you have a middle-class family -

husband and wife, two kids - who should be paying $15,000,

$18,000 a year for healthcare. Our health-care proposal

eliminates that. Yes, it asks them

to pay more in taxes. Unfortunately, the author

of that article forgot to mention that aspect.

Just a couple of quickfire questions, some were puzzled by a

particular stance you took, one was on your refusal over years,

actually, to support the more radical proposals to controlling gun

ownership in the United States. E.g. Do that because of this identity of

politics at work about. Did you do this because you thought that would

appeal to working class, blue-collar Americans? I did that because I come

from a state that has zero gun control but I represent the state,

where there is virtually no gun control and, by the way, the crime

rate and the murder rate, thank God, are very low. In rural Vermont you

had your TV and you switch it on and you look at the terrible events of

Sandy Hook school... I am -- my record on gun control has been a

strong record. You have repeatedly refused to back the measures that

some call the Brady measures to impose strict limits on... By and

large, I received, my memory is correct, about I think it was a D

minus voting record for the NRA. So I don't think that makes me very

sympathetic to their point of view. Another question, we have spoken

about winning support, getting great grassroots activism on your site,

but translating it into big race, even today, even though you were

still criss-crossing the country, getting people out, supporting you,

building a movement, I looked at your record recently, you had a

candidate - I mean, a close associate of yours is a state

Democratic Party, you lost. One second. We lost, in other words, in

California, tens of thousands of young people, not young people,

working people, and unions, took on an establishment which has run that

party for a very long time. We were not successful. But called losing,

yeah. When you take on people with an enormous amount of power, you do

not win on your first shot. There is no debate. If you look at what is

going on of the Democratic but Fong, do you know what is happening there?

90% of what I campaigned on. Do you know the legislation that is coming

forth from Democrats now? What I campaigned on. Last week we

introduced legislation that would it increase the rate to $15 an hour. We

are fighting legislation with national support to guarantee

healthcare to all people through a Medicare or a single-payer system so

if your point of view is that overnight, you can bring a political

revolution to the United States, I don't think so. I never thought so.

And I think no serious political reporter thinks so. Is that you're

way off...? Applause. Is that... Is that you're way of signing to me and

this audience and the world that you have no intention of backing down?

You are going to be running for president again? I didn't say that

at all. You said this is a long-term process, one shot, you said, does

not solve this process. I didn't say one shot but I said one campaign

will not change the world but look, we are taking on an establishment.

That means we are taking on a Republican Party that is backed by

multibillionaires with endless amounts of money. We are taking on a

democratic party which, for the last 30 years, has moved to the right,

lost its contact with working people and young people. Now, do you think

overnight we will bring victory? We won't. Many of your people want to

know if you will run again. It is to early to talk about that. One of the

problems we have in America is media focuses on the easy stuff. Will be

run for president? I'll tell you what I'm doing right now. What I'm

doing is taking on Donald Trump a disastrous health proposal that rose

20 3 million people off health insurance. I am taking on his

budget, which gives $2.5 trillion in tax wrecks to the top 1% and makes

massive cup to the needs of working people. Let's talk about other

aspects of what Donald Trump has offered the American people but

again, it seems to be relevant to what we hear from any political

movement in Europe and elsewhere as well, particularly movement that

were traditionally characterised of the right and and what they are

doing at the moment is telling a narrative which weaves together

nationalism, protectionism, and to some extent a fear of immigration.

And it is a powerful cocktail. You could argue that narrative was

powerful Taringa Brexit referendum in the UK, you could argue it is

powerful in Eastern Europe in countries like Hungary, it certainly

grabbed hold with Marine Le Pen in France. In some ways it is the right

and some elements of the far right who appeared to be using language

which many ordinary people can relate to. Well, but you know, there

is nothing new about that. Here in Europe you should be more aware of

the role that demagogues have played for a very, very long period of

time. When demagoguery is about, what you are describing... That is

your word, not mine. Excuse me, I understand what you are saying.

What's demagoguery is about is scapegoating minorities who have no

power. Who are saying to people who have lost their jobs or working

longer hours for low wages it is the Muslims who are responsible for you

losing your job is all working for low wages. It is Latinos in the

United States who are responsible. The antidote to that is to create a

powerful movement of working-class people who have the guts not to

scapegoat minorities but have the guts to take on the billionaire

class that we should be talking about. What interests me about

you... Applause. What interests me about you is that in some areas, you

are not afraid to enter the territory that, for example, in the

United States, Donald Trump is in which is talking about

protectionism. First of all I would suggest that many of the ideas or

some of those ideas, they were ideas I have been talking about for years.

You talk about protectionism. I use the word that trade policies. This

trade would ring? Of course it is. Do you want to trade? I will give

you a dollar, you know, and you give me $1000. That would be a good trade

for me. Who do you think and write these trade agreements? You think it

is working people? People working in factories? Farmers? Leave me, I am

fair, these are the executives of major multinational corporations,

the drug companies, and Wall Street, they make this trade agreements, a

work for those people, and they are often quite bad for ordinary

workers. I was taken by something Barack

Obama said the other day, he was talking about his view of America

and a big, bold inclusive dynamic America, the America we love so

much. It seems to me that America doesn't actually exist right now.

First of all, let us be very clear, Donald Trump is not America. And

on... No, no, one second. One second. Because I don't agree with

you. America has come a very long way in many areas. The fact that

Barack Obama, an African-American, was elected president in 2008 were

re-elected in 2012, that was something that people 30 or 40 years

ago never would have believed could have occurred.

So if the issue is do we have racism in America or in the UK?

But have we made significant advances in combating racism?

We have done a good job in combating sexism.

We have done a good job in combating homophobia.

But I'm proud that in America we are a more inclusive society.

This is just a stat that seems interesting to me.

Nearly three quarters of Republicans identify themselves

And they see their America being eroded day by day.

They - white, Christian America - represents only 43%

There is this sense of polarisation, and a great deal of among parts

There is a lot of fear, and there is fear for good reason.

If you were 62 years of age and approaching

retirement in three years, and you were one of the half

of older workers in America who had no money in the bank,

If you were a kid graduating college $75,000 in debt

and couldn't find a decent job, you would be afraid as well.

If you were a single mom making $30,000 and spending $10,000

a year on childcare, you would be afraid as well.

So I think there is a lot of economic anxiety

which then translate itself into cultural issues.

But answer your broad question, there is no doubt in my mind that

over the last 50 years, the United States has in fact become

Bernie Sanders, we have to end there, but thank

By the end of this week, you may be wondering what has

happened to the summer because the week ahead looks