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And now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Jacob Zuma's grip on power in south Africa is | :00:12. | :00:23. | |
listening. He will relinquish leadership of the ANC at the end of | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
year. And whether he will complete this as south Africa's president is | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
uncertain, as allegations of corruption pile up around this | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
government. My guess to day it is Thuli Madonsela, south Africa's | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
public protector until late last year. She exposed a web of wiring | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
connections between the state and big business interests. But are her | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
concerns about to be buried? -- worrying. -- Public Protector. | :00:55. | :01:19. | |
Thuli Madonsela, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for being here | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
Stephen. It is such a non-. I think we have to begin with that explicit | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
report that you wrote and published before leaving the office of Public | :01:36. | :01:45. | |
Protector last year. -- such an honour. The idea was that big | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
business individuals had undue influence on the government. You | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
wanted a fully fledged enquiry to be set up within 30 days of your | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
report's publication. Seven months later, that has not happened. How do | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
you feel about that? I am concerned that the Commissioner for the | :02:07. | :02:16. | |
enquiry has not been appointed. The concern is the uncertainty and the | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
suspicions have created a certain level of this functionality within | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
the executive. You saw some dismissals, including the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
whistleblower. -- disfunctionality. There is also a trust deficit at the | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
level of the public. Because of that, I would rather that the | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
pressure for the inquiry would have been appointed immediately. You give | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
some interesting information there. Do you make a direct link between | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
the firing of the Deputy fine and Minister and this involvement in one | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
of your key allegations, and that is that there was an effort to persuade | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
him to take the finance minister's job with the offer of a huge amount | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
of money as a sweetener, if he did certain things on taking the job. He | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
refused to take the job, he says on that basis. -- Deputy Finance | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
Minister. He was then fired in March 2017. You see that his firing was | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
directly linked? I am saying it is one of the factors. Because the | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
allegation, apart from that discredited intelligence report, was | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
that the relationship had been soured, or the relationship was | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
dysfunctional. And because of that, there is a linkage between the | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
unhealthy relationship and what happened. The centre of this is | :03:54. | :04:03. | |
allegations concerning two brothers, the Gupta brothers, who have denied | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
the allegations in your state of capture report. One way in Dolby | :04:07. | :04:15. | |
Deputy Finance Minister, others involved some of their businesses in | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
the energy sector. There were a raft of suggestions that you believed | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
that the Guptas exercise massive and undue influence over Jacob Zuma's | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
government. Is it still your contention today? All I stated was | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
that there was evidence and a -- and it is a case to be answered. | :04:37. | :04:57. | |
With respect, you would not have presented your report unless you | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
believed there was a degree of credibility in the allegations. -- | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
and there is a case will stop I believe that there was a degree of | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
credibility nudges in the allegations but any evidence that I | :05:14. | :05:25. | |
uncovered. In the report, we include evidence of AJ Gupta, who spoke | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
about his relationship --. We also include cellphone evidence that puts | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
people in the Gupta compound several times and in proximity to their | :05:36. | :05:45. | |
contentious affairs. One thing that is concerning is the allegation | :05:46. | :05:56. | |
concerning the Guptas and their influence, both white Guptas and by | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
the person they spoke to, in the end, when we said today? All the key | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
players in a report absolutely deny the truth of undue influence, and | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
without a commission of enquiry, led by an independent judge, as you | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
wanted, and Caesar is no way of getting to the truth. 100%. Only a | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
commission of enquiry will settle this. And also free the people that | :06:23. | :06:33. | |
feel that they are unjustly accused. -- and it seems there is no way of | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
getting to be true. Jacob Zuma says that you overstepped your powers, | :06:39. | :06:47. | |
your constitutional powers,, as it was until last year, when you said | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
the person who must appoint this independent authority at the head of | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
the commission must be appointed by the chief justice of South Africa. | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
-- getting to the truth. Jacob Zuma's said that that is a | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
presidential prerogative, and that you undermined those powers. The | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
president is wrong that I overstep my powers. I said to the judge that | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
they should be selected independently. I would not be used | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
to bring powers if you are doing nothing. -- usurping. This had a | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
potential to poison the waters. But if this was true, then a lot of | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
damage was being done. He did nothing. If I am a police officer | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
and I say to do your job, I am not usurping your powers, I am | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
exercising your powers, your stock is still your job. If your job is to | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
drive off a parking lot, the police officer continue to do so, and that | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
is not usurping it. Would you make of the way that Jacob Zuma has | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
hampered your report and its fallout in the seven months since you | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
publish it? I think it has been honoured. Odds? -- odd. I think it | :08:06. | :08:19. | |
has been very odd. It is detrimental to Jacob Zuma, to government, and to | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
his son who is in business with the Guptas. And also to the Guptas. -- | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
since you published. If the evidence we have is incorrect, in that the | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
allegations are not true, it is best that this matter be investigated | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
expeditiously and their names cleared. Do you have faith that your | :08:44. | :08:56. | |
successor will fully and completely pursue the state of capture report | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
and a thorough investigation of it? I have no reason to doubt my | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
successor, and certainly, also, it would be rude of me to comment about | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
my successor, and my predecessors never commented. I did, however, | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
make a binding decision that the next phase of the state capture | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
investigation be done by a judicial commission of enquiry. Because of | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
the nature of the allegations and the need for the public to be | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
satisfied that no stone was left unturned. I don't think that any | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
APEC process at this stage would address the trust deficit amongst | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
ordinary people. -- any part of the process. There are some things about | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
your successor that suggest that you and she do not see things in the | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
same way. For example, she seemed determined to investigate your | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
release of audiotapes of one conversation you had with Jacob | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
Zuma. She seemed to think was unacceptable that release those | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
audiotapes, which, perhaps, to some South Africans, means that she is | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
more minded to view this from the interests of Jacob Zuma. Also, she | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
seems to have pursued an allegation against you that sometime ago your | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
son was involved in an accident, when he was driving a car that was | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
state property, which you did not offer compensation for, which I | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
know, it you have since then that a statement of regret about. It seems | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
to me that you and your successor are at odds. She has made her | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
choices and I am not there to judge. History will judge the two of us. | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
Regarding my son, my concern was that she prejudged it. After all the | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
hullabaloo and the dragging of my name in the mud, she then came back | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
and said she is going to investigate. I'm still waiting for | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
the outcome of that. But in the meantime, avoiding all of this | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
noise, I decided to pay... Because the issue was not that my son did | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
not drive the car and did not cause the accident. The issue was did I do | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
anything wrong? And I thought it was improper for me to be judged to have | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
done anything wrong when the rules... That the integrity of your | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
position that you, and now she, in the rule, -- any role, is to be | :11:35. | :11:43. | |
white on white. I wonder if South Africa is now have a bit of a seed | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
of questions about your integrity. I don't know what many South Africans | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
think. I just know that I have never done anything to break the law. And | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
on this one, that is why spoke out, to make sure it was clear that I | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
never did anything wrong. I stuck by the principles. My son, under my | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
guidance, had only use the car when I was there, because in terms of the | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
rules, I was allowed to have anybody driving. And on that night, it was | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
clear to everybody that I was not involved. We tried to get the car at | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
5am in the morning with my protectors, and the car was not | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
there. For them to suggest that there was anything I could have done | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
to prevent that, or there was anything that they did to cause | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
that, was improper. And at that stage, I thought it sounded | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
militias. Let's get back to Jacob Zuma. Because in the end, he is at | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
the heart of this question of government. -- malicious. There is a | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
Sanskrit has become personal between you and him. Going all the way back | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
to your investigation of the estate scandal, the degree to which you | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
revealed that he had spent an awful lot of money in ways that were | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
nothing to do with security, but, it seems, to do with personal enjoyment | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
of his property. In the end, he had to be that a huge amount of money, I | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
think more than half a million US dollars worth of improvements, he | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
had to pay back. Do you think that he now regards your relationship | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
with him as personally toxic? He has not said that in me. I recall that | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
before the constitutional court decided that my powers were binding, | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
and that there was nothing wrong with the decisions I had made, I met | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
with him on a Friday, we had a cordial relationship or meeting, he | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
and his son, and we discuss the matter. And he said he was wrongly | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
advised by lawyers. He did not give me a sense be responsible for what | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
happened. Because at that stage, he was now clear that he had a duty to | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
have stopped this. Because he had an opportunity after the media raise | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
the alarm to stop it. It also, secondly, none of us has to benefit | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
from government at the expense of taxpayers currently under what we | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
are entitled to under the law. You think he is fit to govern South | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
Africa, today? That is not permitted determined. You are entitled to your | :14:17. | :14:25. | |
opinion as a South African citizen. I would have an opinion it was just | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
jealous, but as a former public provider, and as you say, this may | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
be seen by some as personal, I do not express a view. -- protector. I | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
do know that Jacob Zuma has done the best he could. It is up to South | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
Africans in the future when they choose leaders to decide who can | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
operate in these complex conditions. As a result of the work you did | :14:49. | :15:00. | |
investigating the allegations of these results, you received threats, | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
intimidation, people were standing outside your house, chanting against | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
you. I believe that one point you were accused of working for the CIA. | :15:13. | :15:22. | |
I gather that you also faced death Threats. What is your feeling about | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
the comfort you have in your own country today, the security you | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
have? I feel fairly secure, but I am concerned, because people who once | :15:36. | :15:46. | |
called me a comrade, they have now said things against me. It was not | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
nice. But that is the least of my concerns. The worst thing was that | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
the government of South Africa decided that it was going to | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
investigate those allegations. Another allegation was that I was | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
working for the president of America to determine who hates America. Why | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
would they use need to spy against presidents, to find out who hates | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
America? The South African government chose to give credence to | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
those allegations, and that brings us back to President Zuma. Do you | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
believe he was responsible for the intimidator ray actions against you? | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
I will never know, but from what I heard from his advisers, at least | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
during the Uganda investigation, during the state investigation, they | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
don't know. He has never given me a sense that he hates me personally. | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
But I do know that he could have stopped it. At no stage did he ever | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
have it stopped. The President did say that this must stop. Another big | :16:58. | :17:07. | |
picture result of the work you've done is a discussion about whether | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
South Africa's Constitution is really working. Going back to the | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
days of writing that constitution, which you, as a postgraduate | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
student, you actually became involved in the creation of the | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
Constitution. One of the main points is the separation of powers, the | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
office of Public Rick Victor is one guarantee of checking on the power | :17:34. | :17:45. | |
of governments in South Africa -- public director. I think it is clear | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
what the judiciary does and what the legislature does. It was not always | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
clear what the protector has to do. It is clear that they have the power | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
to investigate in suspected improper conduct. But I always thought that | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
you could not force people to do things, because you are not in | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
charge. Sorry to interrupt, but you very consciously left the AMC before | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
you took the public protect the job. I wonder whether you believe there | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
is a danger, perhaps even now, that the public protect it office may | :18:26. | :18:34. | |
become too closely allied with the executive -- protector. It is | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
important for the public protector not to be seen to be aligned to any | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
political party. You are supposed to be agnostic. I can say that during | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
my time, the office was politically agnostic. You say, during my time. | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
What we have today is a very interesting controversy about | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
comments made by your success. The relatively new public protector who, | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
in recent days, has, in the midst of an investigation to an historic | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
allegation of wrongdoing in a South African bank, has issued an opinion | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
suggesting that the South African reserve bank should change its | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
constitutional obligation to put protection of the currency at the | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
centre of policy-making. She has suggested that in future, the | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
reserve bank should actually focus more on delivering growth and | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
equitable growth that spreads prosperity to a greater number of | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
South African people. What do you think of her intervention in that | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
way? She is making her own choices based on how she understands the | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
Constitution and the war. I don't think it's proper for me to comment | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
on that. Would you have made that sort of thing? Do you think that is | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
part of your remit as public protector? All I can say is that bad | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
investigation has concluded and I was at the point where I should have | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
signed a provisional report. During my time, the issues of the powers of | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
the reserve bank was not an issue. Did you see it as part of your | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
remit? I would say that the complaints did not involve the | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
powers of the reserve bank in this case. The complaint was... You think | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
she overstepped when she waded into this argument? I don't know. A lot | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
has happened since October last year. A complaints may have been | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
lodged about the powers of the reserve bank that was linked with | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
this. She may have come across issues... The former finance | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
minister, you are trying to be diplomatic, but the former finance | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
minister said it was nothing to do with her, it is so above her pay | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
grade. What you make of that? Is a he has the right to comment. Right | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
now, it would be rude to comment on my successes. I will not tempt you | :21:11. | :21:18. | |
to be rude. But I am going to ask you about state capture. We talked | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
about your report, it underpins so much of what South Africans are | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
debating today. How did do these allegations go? What is President | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
Zuma was to resign because of the allegations surrounding his | :21:36. | :21:37. | |
government? Would that be an end to it? Or do you think that this | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
concept of state capture runs much deeper than that in today's's South | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
Africa? The allegations and evidence, they suggest there is a | :21:49. | :21:57. | |
very serious problems. However, the evidence that we have at the moment | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
is really relating to President Zuma, and aligned companies. | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
Therefore, when President Zuma's term has ended, perhaps the story | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
will be different. But I wouldn't say it would necessarily end, | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
because it would depend on who comes into government. How do you and the | :22:21. | :22:32. | |
presidency in a way that restores public trust? -- end. We need to | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
have a public enquiry. Ending with something personal. You were brought | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
up in a poor family. You are very much part of the liberation | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
generation. As a young woman, you helped write the South African | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
Constitution. You worked in the public servers for much of your | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
life. It seems to me that, having quit the public protector's offers, | :22:56. | :23:05. | |
you seem very disillusioned with how South Africa has travelled and you | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
believe that Nelson Mandela's vision has not been fulfilled in the | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
country. Are you disillusioned? I am disappointed with some of the | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
decisions made, and I am disappointed with what is said by | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
many people in power. I see a lot of activities that are taking place now | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
that I'm making sure that we get out of this, and if you ask me what is | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
going to be the future, two years from now, I see a progress in South | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Africa that is not facing any economic difficulties. I see us | :23:44. | :23:56. | |
having a better state. We have to end there, but Thuli Madonsela, | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much. | :24:04. | :24:26. | |
We saw the peak of the heatwave on Wednesday afternoon, | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
with temperatures across southern Britain soaring into the low | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
It was 35 degrees recorded at Heathrow, which was the warmest | :24:41. | :24:44. |