Thuli Madonsela - Public Protector, South Africa (2009-2016) HARDtalk


Thuli Madonsela - Public Protector, South Africa (2009-2016)

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And now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Jacob Zuma's grip on power in south Africa is

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listening. He will relinquish leadership of the ANC at the end of

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year. And whether he will complete this as south Africa's president is

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uncertain, as allegations of corruption pile up around this

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government. My guess to day it is Thuli Madonsela, south Africa's

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public protector until late last year. She exposed a web of wiring

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connections between the state and big business interests. But are her

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concerns about to be buried? -- worrying. -- Public Protector.

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Thuli Madonsela, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for being here

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Stephen. It is such a non-. I think we have to begin with that explicit

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report that you wrote and published before leaving the office of Public

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Protector last year. -- such an honour. The idea was that big

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business individuals had undue influence on the government. You

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wanted a fully fledged enquiry to be set up within 30 days of your

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report's publication. Seven months later, that has not happened. How do

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you feel about that? I am concerned that the Commissioner for the

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enquiry has not been appointed. The concern is the uncertainty and the

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suspicions have created a certain level of this functionality within

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the executive. You saw some dismissals, including the

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whistleblower. -- disfunctionality. There is also a trust deficit at the

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level of the public. Because of that, I would rather that the

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pressure for the inquiry would have been appointed immediately. You give

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some interesting information there. Do you make a direct link between

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the firing of the Deputy fine and Minister and this involvement in one

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of your key allegations, and that is that there was an effort to persuade

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him to take the finance minister's job with the offer of a huge amount

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of money as a sweetener, if he did certain things on taking the job. He

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refused to take the job, he says on that basis. -- Deputy Finance

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Minister. He was then fired in March 2017. You see that his firing was

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directly linked? I am saying it is one of the factors. Because the

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allegation, apart from that discredited intelligence report, was

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that the relationship had been soured, or the relationship was

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dysfunctional. And because of that, there is a linkage between the

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unhealthy relationship and what happened. The centre of this is

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allegations concerning two brothers, the Gupta brothers, who have denied

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the allegations in your state of capture report. One way in Dolby

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Deputy Finance Minister, others involved some of their businesses in

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the energy sector. There were a raft of suggestions that you believed

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that the Guptas exercise massive and undue influence over Jacob Zuma's

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government. Is it still your contention today? All I stated was

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that there was evidence and a -- and it is a case to be answered.

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With respect, you would not have presented your report unless you

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believed there was a degree of credibility in the allegations. --

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and there is a case will stop I believe that there was a degree of

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credibility nudges in the allegations but any evidence that I

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uncovered. In the report, we include evidence of AJ Gupta, who spoke

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about his relationship --. We also include cellphone evidence that puts

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people in the Gupta compound several times and in proximity to their

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contentious affairs. One thing that is concerning is the allegation

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concerning the Guptas and their influence, both white Guptas and by

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the person they spoke to, in the end, when we said today? All the key

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players in a report absolutely deny the truth of undue influence, and

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without a commission of enquiry, led by an independent judge, as you

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wanted, and Caesar is no way of getting to the truth. 100%. Only a

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commission of enquiry will settle this. And also free the people that

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feel that they are unjustly accused. -- and it seems there is no way of

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getting to be true. Jacob Zuma says that you overstepped your powers,

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your constitutional powers,, as it was until last year, when you said

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the person who must appoint this independent authority at the head of

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the commission must be appointed by the chief justice of South Africa.

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-- getting to the truth. Jacob Zuma's said that that is a

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presidential prerogative, and that you undermined those powers. The

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president is wrong that I overstep my powers. I said to the judge that

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they should be selected independently. I would not be used

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to bring powers if you are doing nothing. -- usurping. This had a

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potential to poison the waters. But if this was true, then a lot of

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damage was being done. He did nothing. If I am a police officer

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and I say to do your job, I am not usurping your powers, I am

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exercising your powers, your stock is still your job. If your job is to

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drive off a parking lot, the police officer continue to do so, and that

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is not usurping it. Would you make of the way that Jacob Zuma has

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hampered your report and its fallout in the seven months since you

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publish it? I think it has been honoured. Odds? -- odd. I think it

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has been very odd. It is detrimental to Jacob Zuma, to government, and to

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his son who is in business with the Guptas. And also to the Guptas. --

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since you published. If the evidence we have is incorrect, in that the

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allegations are not true, it is best that this matter be investigated

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expeditiously and their names cleared. Do you have faith that your

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successor will fully and completely pursue the state of capture report

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and a thorough investigation of it? I have no reason to doubt my

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successor, and certainly, also, it would be rude of me to comment about

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my successor, and my predecessors never commented. I did, however,

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make a binding decision that the next phase of the state capture

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investigation be done by a judicial commission of enquiry. Because of

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the nature of the allegations and the need for the public to be

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satisfied that no stone was left unturned. I don't think that any

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APEC process at this stage would address the trust deficit amongst

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ordinary people. -- any part of the process. There are some things about

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your successor that suggest that you and she do not see things in the

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same way. For example, she seemed determined to investigate your

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release of audiotapes of one conversation you had with Jacob

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Zuma. She seemed to think was unacceptable that release those

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audiotapes, which, perhaps, to some South Africans, means that she is

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more minded to view this from the interests of Jacob Zuma. Also, she

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seems to have pursued an allegation against you that sometime ago your

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son was involved in an accident, when he was driving a car that was

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state property, which you did not offer compensation for, which I

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know, it you have since then that a statement of regret about. It seems

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to me that you and your successor are at odds. She has made her

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choices and I am not there to judge. History will judge the two of us.

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Regarding my son, my concern was that she prejudged it. After all the

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hullabaloo and the dragging of my name in the mud, she then came back

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and said she is going to investigate. I'm still waiting for

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the outcome of that. But in the meantime, avoiding all of this

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noise, I decided to pay... Because the issue was not that my son did

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not drive the car and did not cause the accident. The issue was did I do

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anything wrong? And I thought it was improper for me to be judged to have

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done anything wrong when the rules... That the integrity of your

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position that you, and now she, in the rule, -- any role, is to be

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white on white. I wonder if South Africa is now have a bit of a seed

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of questions about your integrity. I don't know what many South Africans

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think. I just know that I have never done anything to break the law. And

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on this one, that is why spoke out, to make sure it was clear that I

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never did anything wrong. I stuck by the principles. My son, under my

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guidance, had only use the car when I was there, because in terms of the

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rules, I was allowed to have anybody driving. And on that night, it was

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clear to everybody that I was not involved. We tried to get the car at

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5am in the morning with my protectors, and the car was not

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there. For them to suggest that there was anything I could have done

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to prevent that, or there was anything that they did to cause

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that, was improper. And at that stage, I thought it sounded

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militias. Let's get back to Jacob Zuma. Because in the end, he is at

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the heart of this question of government. -- malicious. There is a

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Sanskrit has become personal between you and him. Going all the way back

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to your investigation of the estate scandal, the degree to which you

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revealed that he had spent an awful lot of money in ways that were

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nothing to do with security, but, it seems, to do with personal enjoyment

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of his property. In the end, he had to be that a huge amount of money, I

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think more than half a million US dollars worth of improvements, he

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had to pay back. Do you think that he now regards your relationship

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with him as personally toxic? He has not said that in me. I recall that

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before the constitutional court decided that my powers were binding,

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and that there was nothing wrong with the decisions I had made, I met

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with him on a Friday, we had a cordial relationship or meeting, he

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and his son, and we discuss the matter. And he said he was wrongly

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advised by lawyers. He did not give me a sense be responsible for what

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happened. Because at that stage, he was now clear that he had a duty to

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have stopped this. Because he had an opportunity after the media raise

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the alarm to stop it. It also, secondly, none of us has to benefit

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from government at the expense of taxpayers currently under what we

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are entitled to under the law. You think he is fit to govern South

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Africa, today? That is not permitted determined. You are entitled to your

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opinion as a South African citizen. I would have an opinion it was just

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jealous, but as a former public provider, and as you say, this may

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be seen by some as personal, I do not express a view. -- protector. I

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do know that Jacob Zuma has done the best he could. It is up to South

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Africans in the future when they choose leaders to decide who can

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operate in these complex conditions. As a result of the work you did

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investigating the allegations of these results, you received threats,

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intimidation, people were standing outside your house, chanting against

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you. I believe that one point you were accused of working for the CIA.

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I gather that you also faced death Threats. What is your feeling about

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the comfort you have in your own country today, the security you

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have? I feel fairly secure, but I am concerned, because people who once

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called me a comrade, they have now said things against me. It was not

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nice. But that is the least of my concerns. The worst thing was that

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the government of South Africa decided that it was going to

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investigate those allegations. Another allegation was that I was

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working for the president of America to determine who hates America. Why

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would they use need to spy against presidents, to find out who hates

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America? The South African government chose to give credence to

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those allegations, and that brings us back to President Zuma. Do you

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believe he was responsible for the intimidator ray actions against you?

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I will never know, but from what I heard from his advisers, at least

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during the Uganda investigation, during the state investigation, they

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don't know. He has never given me a sense that he hates me personally.

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But I do know that he could have stopped it. At no stage did he ever

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have it stopped. The President did say that this must stop. Another big

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picture result of the work you've done is a discussion about whether

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South Africa's Constitution is really working. Going back to the

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days of writing that constitution, which you, as a postgraduate

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student, you actually became involved in the creation of the

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Constitution. One of the main points is the separation of powers, the

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office of Public Rick Victor is one guarantee of checking on the power

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of governments in South Africa -- public director. I think it is clear

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what the judiciary does and what the legislature does. It was not always

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clear what the protector has to do. It is clear that they have the power

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to investigate in suspected improper conduct. But I always thought that

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you could not force people to do things, because you are not in

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charge. Sorry to interrupt, but you very consciously left the AMC before

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you took the public protect the job. I wonder whether you believe there

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is a danger, perhaps even now, that the public protect it office may

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become too closely allied with the executive -- protector. It is

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important for the public protector not to be seen to be aligned to any

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political party. You are supposed to be agnostic. I can say that during

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my time, the office was politically agnostic. You say, during my time.

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What we have today is a very interesting controversy about

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comments made by your success. The relatively new public protector who,

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in recent days, has, in the midst of an investigation to an historic

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allegation of wrongdoing in a South African bank, has issued an opinion

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suggesting that the South African reserve bank should change its

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constitutional obligation to put protection of the currency at the

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centre of policy-making. She has suggested that in future, the

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reserve bank should actually focus more on delivering growth and

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equitable growth that spreads prosperity to a greater number of

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South African people. What do you think of her intervention in that

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way? She is making her own choices based on how she understands the

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Constitution and the war. I don't think it's proper for me to comment

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on that. Would you have made that sort of thing? Do you think that is

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part of your remit as public protector? All I can say is that bad

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investigation has concluded and I was at the point where I should have

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signed a provisional report. During my time, the issues of the powers of

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the reserve bank was not an issue. Did you see it as part of your

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remit? I would say that the complaints did not involve the

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powers of the reserve bank in this case. The complaint was... You think

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she overstepped when she waded into this argument? I don't know. A lot

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has happened since October last year. A complaints may have been

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lodged about the powers of the reserve bank that was linked with

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this. She may have come across issues... The former finance

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minister, you are trying to be diplomatic, but the former finance

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minister said it was nothing to do with her, it is so above her pay

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grade. What you make of that? Is a he has the right to comment. Right

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now, it would be rude to comment on my successes. I will not tempt you

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to be rude. But I am going to ask you about state capture. We talked

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about your report, it underpins so much of what South Africans are

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debating today. How did do these allegations go? What is President

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Zuma was to resign because of the allegations surrounding his

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government? Would that be an end to it? Or do you think that this

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concept of state capture runs much deeper than that in today's's South

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Africa? The allegations and evidence, they suggest there is a

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very serious problems. However, the evidence that we have at the moment

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is really relating to President Zuma, and aligned companies.

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Therefore, when President Zuma's term has ended, perhaps the story

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will be different. But I wouldn't say it would necessarily end,

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because it would depend on who comes into government. How do you and the

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presidency in a way that restores public trust? -- end. We need to

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have a public enquiry. Ending with something personal. You were brought

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up in a poor family. You are very much part of the liberation

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generation. As a young woman, you helped write the South African

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Constitution. You worked in the public servers for much of your

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life. It seems to me that, having quit the public protector's offers,

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you seem very disillusioned with how South Africa has travelled and you

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believe that Nelson Mandela's vision has not been fulfilled in the

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country. Are you disillusioned? I am disappointed with some of the

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decisions made, and I am disappointed with what is said by

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many people in power. I see a lot of activities that are taking place now

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that I'm making sure that we get out of this, and if you ask me what is

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going to be the future, two years from now, I see a progress in South

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Africa that is not facing any economic difficulties. I see us

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having a better state. We have to end there, but Thuli Madonsela,

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thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much.

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We saw the peak of the heatwave on Wednesday afternoon,

:24:27.:24:32.

with temperatures across southern Britain soaring into the low

:24:33.:24:40.

It was 35 degrees recorded at Heathrow, which was the warmest

:24:41.:24:44.

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