Antonio Trillanes, Philippines Senator HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. When it comes to populist or

text delivered with menace, no one does it quite like Rodrigo Duterte,

the elected president of the Philippines. Since he came to power,

around 7000 people have been killed. Human rights groups are aghast that

the majority of Filipinos seem to like his iron fist. My guest is one

of the President's most fears critics, Senator Antonio Trillanes.

Is President Duterte caretaking the region in a new direction? Antonio

Trillanes in Manila, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello, Stephen. Thank you

very much for inviting me. We speak at a difficult time for your

country. In Mindanao in the south of the Philippines that you have a

national emergency with a town that for weeks has faced a siege because

it has been, in essence, taken over by jihadist gunman. The president

says this is a national emergency and it is time for the country to

unify. Do you agree? I agree that what is happening in Marawi is a

national crisis and something that we should deal with decisively. I

feel that the armed forces, historically, have faced more

difficult challenges before and they can overcome this challenge once

again and I have no doubt that the armed Forces of the Philippines will

subdue the Maute group. A few days ago, the Finance Minister made it

clear point of associating the Maute, associating them with drug

crime. He said there is no doubt that much of the money they make and

the way they operate comes from their involvement in organised drug

trafficking. Do you agree with that? That is probably the case that the

question is, for the past year that they unleashed this deadly war on

drugs, how come they did not touch these suspected drug lords who are

supporting Maute? The Finance Minister said it is time for the

country to support a president who wants to see a Philippines where

obedience to the law is not optional. He has imposed martial law

in the area around Marawi and there is talk he may extend the area under

martial law. You have called this a national crisis. I wonder if you

support him at this time of crisis? We support the claim that what is

happening in Marawi is a national crisis in terms of the ridge of the

Maute um they can wreck havoc in the country in terms of activities that

may be deadly to the Filipino public. In addressing this threat of

terrorism, martial law is not the cure. Because it will affect the way

of life of the Filipino and at the same time it will affect negatively

the economy of our country. My prescription was to enhance the

capability of intelligence community in our law enforcement agencies so

that we can accurately pinpoint the terrorist cells without affecting

the way of life of the public. Isn't the truth that the Filipino public

elected Rodrigo Duterte to the presidency because they wanted a

tough guy who could impose order on the Philippines. If one looks back

at the situation where he took over, that Philippine drug enforcement

agency stated last year that 92% of districts in Manila, for example,

were affected by drugs. The overwhelming drug of choice being

crystal meth. Your country was in a parlous state and drugs crime was at

the centre of it and that is we do Jetset was voted in, to deal with

it. -- that is why Rodrigo Duterte was voted in. 98% of the districts

in Manila but in the entire country, only 27% of the districts are

influenced by the use of drugs. For National statistics, we only have

1.8% of the population that has used illegal drugs. Most of it marijuana,

compared to the global average of 5% of the population. In effect, in

fact our drug problem is not as bad as it seems. We agree that it should

be addressed but it is not the primary or only problem in our

country. Are you a Democrat was to mark. And yes. I am from the

nationalist party... I meant in terms of commitment to democracy. It

seems to me fairly clearly that Rodrigo Duterte was straightforward

with the public. His platform was quite clear. I will give you one

quote from his campaign. He said forget the laws on human right is.

If I make it to the presidential palace um I will do what I did as

mayor. You do nothings, drug pushers and hold-up men had better get out

because I will kill you. I will dump you into Manila Bay and I will

fatten the fish with your body is. That was his platform and he won a

clear victory. During the campaign the public just thought that that

was just rhetoric to make the campaign speech more dramatic. Were

set of laws. It does not mean that he said that during campaign and he

was voted into office does the same, it does not give him licence to kill

our own people. He should still be made accountable for his actions

outside the law. Do you think is war on drugs is working? Definitely not.

As I mentioned, only the poor people and suspect did users and pushers

are being killed. The running total of list would be over 9000 already.

He has yet to touch the big-time drug lords who are already mentioned

in the list of law enforcement agencies. It is not easy to judge

but looking at comments made by people in Manila to news agencies,

they say things like the streets safer now. Here and the Philippines

we needed a ruler with an iron fist. These are quotes from the general

public. That seems to be the general mood, that ratings for Rodrigo

Duterte remain high with a 70 5% approval rating. I wonder whether

your comments, constantly negative, are out of tune with ordinary

Filipino opinion? The numbers that you mention are the latest numbers

from back in March. But if you look at where those numbers were when he

assumed office, it went as high as 92%. In less than one year it

dropped by 17 percentage points. Believe me, Senator... If a Western

politician had a 75% approval rating, they would regard that as

the best day of their life. The bulk of the Filipino public are not

really aware of what is happening on the ground. They encounter the

propaganda machine of the administration is effective and the

bulk of the Filipino public are living day-to-day and they do not

really get to know the magnitude of the damage that Rodrigo Duterte has

done that it is why historically in the Philippines, the popularity

ratings go down as the information is spread to the public. I believe

the numbers will continue to drop as they know more and more about the

real situation. Talking about the real situation, you personally

seemed very committed to trying to bring legal action against President

Duterte and for his past actions, particularly going back to his

long-time as mere of Davao in Mindanao. Are you still offering

your help to an individual who works in the so-called death squads that

were operated in Davao during the time of the now president's running

of the city. There is some confusion about whether you personally have

intervened to safeguard Batman. What is the situation? I assisted him

when he appeared in the Senate. We provided security for him while he

was there, while he was testifying. But when the State filed cases

against him and now he is technically a fugitive, I personally

do not know his whereabouts. We already have a witness that will

testify. You made great play of his testimony and we should remember it

was very dramatic. Akin April he testified that he heard Rodrigo

Duterte say... And he was talking of drugs criminal suspects... Throw

them in the ocean or the quarry. Make sure there are no traces of the

body. There is one particular story where he claimed that Rodrigo

Duterte had signed off on the murder of the pregnant wife and

four-year-old child of one particular drug crime suspect. Do

you really believe this test are many and do you believe that adds up

to something that should lead to legal action against Rodrigo

Duterte, now that he is president? Most definitely. I believe his

testimony and even the State leaves him enough that they used the

testimony in the Senate to file cases against him. Perhaps it is in

the witness's interests now to blame Rodrigo Duterte said now for actions

he himself took. The man is a self-confessed murderer many times

over. It seems odd to me that you would put so much faith in a self

acknowledged massmurderer. The testimony that pinned Batman down

was about the murder of a journalist in the Philippians. He has no

interest whatsoever in the journalist, even in his testimony he

was just part of the planners. He was not even the key man in that

murder. And the whole country sought access to many and it is not only my

own judgement that we believe, a great number of people believe him

as well. This is not just about the law, it is about politics. Rodrigo

Duterte has said many different things at many different times and

one called compare him in that way in which he is difficult to pin down

to, you know, other prominent politicians of our time to use

Twitter to send different messages at different times. The point about

Rodrigo Duterte is that in May 2015, for example, he said "Am I the death

squad? It is true. That is true." He has put his own record in front of

the Filipino public, even to the point of this disgusting

associations with does squad in the Filipino public decided this was the

man to clean up the country. In political terms it seems to me you

are bashing your head against a brick wall. I am not about to give

up on this, even on the Filipino. It will take some time because the

propaganda of the presidential administration is getting in the way

of the flow of truth to the public. It will take some time but his

numbers continue to drop and I am quite confident that towards the end

his numbers will be way below I asked the earlier if you were a

Democrat and you feel you are. Let's look at your track record. You twice

tried to mount coups against an elected Filipino president, in that

case it was back in 2003 you had an abortive coup attempt which had,

well, let's face it, let's face it, only a day, and even more

pathetically you made another attempt to get her out in 2007 and

you ended up in prison for the best part or seven years. Are you

thinking that a coup is a legitimate response again to the Philippine's

current political situation? Definitely not. I believe we have

enough remedies for a problem like Duterte. Let me go back to that

premise, Gloria Macapagal Arroyo assumed power back in 2001 through a

coup. They tried to cover it up with some semblance of constitutionality

but we know for a fact that she assumed power, she assumed office

via a coup. Now, in Duterte's case, we have, as I mentioned, legal

remedies within the Constitution and even part of the international laws,

like the ICC, that we can resort to to resolve or rectify this anomaly

that is Duterte. OK, so, you say no coup on this occasion will use the

law, you have been involved in the filing of an infringement complaint,

that was rejected by the justice committee at the House of

Representatives, so it appears to be going nowhere, and you have been

involved in the courts have the International Criminal Court in the

Hague examine whether Mr Duterte has crimes against humanity. There is

absolutely no indication I can see that the ICC is prepared to pick up

the case, so I don't know where your faith in the law, national and

international, is taking you. I am quite confident that the ICC would

take up the case because it falls right at the centre of the essence

of the ICC and probably in a few months we will see some

developments. Now, as far as the impeachment is concerned, next year

we can also again file an impeachment case against Mr Duterte

if we still have a democracy by then. I believe Duterte at some

point will install a revolutionary government via martial law because

that's the only way... That is the only kind of governance that he

knows. As you mentioned, he ruled like a tyrant, like a whimsical

king, so that's the world that he lives in. That's why he can't deal

with active members of the opposition. He cannot deal with the

objective media, both local and foreign media. Do you feel safe, Mr

Trillanes, saying these things, given what you say about Mr

Duterte's style and character? Well, there are things that one must do as

a public servant and this is not the first time that I went up against a

sitting president, a sitting vice president and a very powerful Senate

President, so I believe I am just being consistent regardless of the

dangers that I could probably face a. Well, yeah, you spent seven years

in prison. Are you thinking you might spend a view more years in

prison before long? Probably -- Arroyo. Duterte has been trying to

fabricate cases against me but so far nothing has worked. You are

talking to me from Manila and there is no doubt that in some ways

Duterte represents a movement in the Philippines to change the way

politics works. He has talked about Imperial Manila. He says the country

has never been governed by people who really have the best interests

of the poor and the disadvantaged at heart and, in particular, he says

the country has never been governed before by someone from Minder now

who is not obsessed with looking after the elite and the oligarchs

based in Manila. He has a point, doesn't he? He is committed to a

radical poverty elimination programme which will raise the

poorest Filipinos, particularly in the neglected areas in the south of

the country -- Mindanao. And that appeals to many people. That is the

campaign rhetoric but one year from his collection into office up to

this point he has yet to actually come up with an economic programme

for the poor. And, in fact, he has been killing them. So he can never

say that he feels for them and that he wants them to succeed. And even

Duterte himself admits that he doesn't know anything about the

economy and his economic managers have come up with this ambitious

economic programme that is hinged on a tax reform programme that is

basically inflationary and therefore anti- poor. So, more or less, we

know the situation here in the Philippines, that the tide is

changing. And I feel it. Even though I am very vocal against Duterte, I

don't even fear for my safety as far as the ordinary Filipinos are

concerned. A lot of them are starting to agree with what we have

been saying. OK, but look, the country is growing at pretty much 7%

a year, which in the west would be regarded as a wonderful achievement.

The World Bank says it expects that growth curve to continue at least

through 2019. Mr Duterte's done deals with Chinese investors which

suggests $15 billion worth of Chinese investment is coming into

your country. He has been crowing about the way in which, by

realigning the Philippines in terms of its diplomacy and outreach, it is

now great friends with China, with Russia and still has, of course, the

security relationship with the United States. In a way, Duterte -

ism appears to be working for the Philippines. Well, on paper, as I

mentioned, it may appear so. But let me just talk about the much hyped 15

billion or 24 billion deal with China. It is basically official

development assistance. It is a loan that is again hinged on the passage

of the tax reform plan, the tax reform Bill that the economic

managers of Duterte are pushing. We in the Senate do not have any plan

of passing it because it is, again, inflationary and anti- poor. So we

cannot afford to give additional burden to the public and the public

appreciates that. Yeah, what you didn't address was my point about

these economic successes. You have a 7% growth rate which is going to

continue. Just as a final point, I put it to you that for all of your

fears of what Duterte mean for the Philippines, right now, viewed by

many ordinary Filipinos, this guy is doing a decent job. Well, that will

change. As I mentioned, once more information will reach the ordinary

Filipinos, they will change that impression about Duterte. I have

seen it before. It may take a little while but it does happen. Now,

regarding the 7% GDP, well, it is happening despite Duterte. It is

fuelled mostly by the remittances from overseas Filipino workers. That

has been the case all these years, at least the last decade. So he

cannot solely take credit for anything at this point in time. And,

in fact, he promised to restore law and order but the Philippines is now

more chaotic today than when he first entered into office. That is a

fact. OK, we have to end there. At a thank you very much, Antonio

Trillanes, for joining me from Manila. Thank you.

As has been the case in recent days, Tuesday brought 30 degrees widely

across the southern half of the British Isles and as they say