Isaias Medina, minister counsellor of Venezuela to the UN, 2015-2017 HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen Sackur. Venezuela's political and

economic crisis is precariously poised. The Maduro regime is

determined to rewrite the Constitution to strengthen its grip

on power. The opposition is intent on using mass protest to bring the

government down. The current stand-off is not sustainable, but

which side will prevail? My guest is Isaias Medina. Until last month the

Venezuelan diplomat at the UN. Now an anti- Maduro dissident. Can

Maduro al asked his enemies? -- at last.

Isaias Medina, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you so much. I

would like to express my gratitude not only to you personally but to

HARDtalk and the BBC for representing a jet of Leith

hardships the Venezuelan people are living in right now. -- objectively

the hardships. We would do that in detail. Let's start with a simple

explanation, if you like. Why did you change sides? For the last

couple of years you have been a diplomat at the UN representing

Venezuela and the Venezuelan government. And a month ago he

decided to jump ship. Why was government. And a month ago he

decided to jump ship. Why? To begin with, corruption, drug trafficking,

terrorist ties, or the illegal attainment of political prisoners

and even less murders of students in the street. And as we have said

silence is the biggest partner of impunity and I am a fighter against

impunity. And in the last four months it has become undeniable that

Maduro's regime is violating human rights, and also has compromised the

crimes... And committed crimes against humanity. And all of this

has shown - not only the high commission of the United Nations in

his last report, but also by the third report that shows torture and

so on. Therefore I could not remain silent. We will go into those

allegations in some detail. Before we do, I remain a little bit

confused. You serve the Venezuelan government from 2015 to 2017. During

that period, of course, Mr Maduro was president of your country. We

know, and I know from personal experience, that the locking up of

political opponents was happening long before you decided to make your

stand, so were many of the other things you have made allegations

about. So I still want to know what prompted you to jump ship now? Was

it simply because eating Maduro's days are numbered and you want to

make sure that you are on the right side, as it were? I hope you're

right and his days are numbered but what I would like to make clear is

that I work for my country. And working for my country in the

committee of international law and of course environmental issues that

are very important for our planet. I did not see it coming in such a way,

such as I believe the international community did not, or was not aware

of how far Maduro's regime could take this and in the last month it

is evident, that is undeniable. And I would have to say social media has

had a great impact on the images of the police aggression and repression

against students of the resistance, which are the heroes of changing

phone as -- change in Venezuela. And me, I had to not only speak out but

stand up for their rights and to make sure that I can bring awareness

and raise consciousness to the international community. Right, but

the allegations he made, that Maduro has ties with terrorist

organisations, with drug traffickers, that his forces and,

again, I am quoting you directly, have used rape as a tortured tool,

that he has an arsenal of weapons that he believed could end up in the

hands of terrorists and drugs warlords - all of these things make

me wonder how you could possibly sit there for two years under Maduro's

governance of your country, representing Venezuela. Wasn't there

just a fundamental hypocrisy that you presumably were happy to live

with for two years? Well, it is your opinion. I do respect it. But I do

not agree with it. Due to the fact that I was working for my country

with the international community. After I have seen all these images,

and also I believe that the profound humanitarian crisis in my country

led me to try to get help for humanitarian corridor with the order

of matter and when I brought it to the awareness of my authorities they

just did not care about it because they didn't want to accept the

situation in Venezuela. That kickstarted my impression. And then

I heard my permanent representative of Venezuela, Raffaele Riva

Mirror's, said there was no humanitarian crisis. -- Ramirez.

Therefore I had to step out of my work in the international community

and start working and investigating what is happening in my country. And

the investigations, Abbey has said, and not only me, the international

community has been clear, the US sanctions clearly establish that

this... That Maduro's regime has established a clear ties to a drug

dealing, terrorist ties, state terrorism, corruption, money

laundering. And I think this is very clear. We don't want to introduce to

many different topics at once. We will get to those allegations and

sanctions in a moment. Just sticking with Nicolas Maduro, who is at the

centre of this, for just one more question. It is important to

remember, is it not, that the man has a democratic mandate? He won an

election in late 2013. He has a mandate which lasts until the end of

2018. If you are a Democrat, that surely matters. It matters as long

as, first of all, it is a real election, and second of all, if you

do not delegitimise yourself by attacking your population, your

civilians, like he is doing. And third of all, you do not commit

unconstitutional acts. Even further, there was another mandate on the

16th of July which, by my humble legal opinion, article 70 of the

national constitution of Venezuela establishes as binding. And the

National Assembly that was elected democratically again in 2015 also

has convened seven points I million signatures to be able to revoke

Maduro's mandate and repudiate the constituents assembly that he has

brought on it and a legally convened -- 7.5 million. Well, of course, he

and his government would say got 8 million votes for their constituent

assembly which outstrips your 7 million votes, or 6 million votes,

for an opposition initiative -- illegally. We can bandy around the

figures. The bottom line is the constituent assembly is in place.

You, if I may characterise you, as a voice in the opposition, you have to

decide what to do now. Is it your belief that the opposition on the

streets, the mass protest, the attempt to topple the government by

the street, must that continue? Yes, and, first of all, Stephen, I don't

think they got 8 million. And that is also clear with the scheme that

they have planned. Not even Hugo Chavez in his best moments got 8

million votes. And Maduro, for sure, is in his worst popular moment. I

don't think he got 10% - 4%, that is 2 million votes. It is a shameful

scheme and sham that they are trying to betray -- 12%. Yes, I do believe

the resistance should stay in the streets, day by day, fighting for

their rights. They have done a great job so far even though it is so sad

to see the murder, they have murdered 130- 140 people in four

months. Let me stop you there. You put that fact in. It is a very

important fact. The circumstances of some of those deaths are still

unclear. We know that more than 100 people have died. Many of them

appear to have been killed by Maduro's security forces. I wonder,

you know, you sit there right now in Miami, I dare say in a fairly

comfortable spot, what do you say to the mothers and fathers of those

young people who are losing their lives on the streets of Caracas and

other Venezuelan towns and cities, when they say to you, is it worth

it? Is it worth my son, my daughter, dying for an opposition campaign

which, frankly, at the moment, doesn't seem to know quite where it

is going? To begin with, I don't believe this is an opposition

campaign. This is already the resistance of the people of

Venezuela. Citizens, normal citizens, are out there trying to

buy for their own future. The only thing I can say to the mothers and

students of their lives is my humble solidarity, and of course they are

heroes and liberators of the regime that is an international criminal

organisation that has hijacked the country. And the only way out is

through people like the resistance and these wonderful young students

that are fighting in the street to come back to the rule of law stop

what you are an international lawyer and you are a diplomat. You sit

there in your civilian clothes. But the real question I suppose in

Venezuela is whether the people in military uniform are going to join

the resistance, as you put it, against the Maduro regime. Some

opposition politicians have sent coded messages to the military

saying it is time for you to stand up and be counted. Do you now

believe the time has come for the Armed Forces, the people inside the

armed forces, to rebel against their commanders and their commander in

chief? It is their duty to do so. Article three, 33 and 350 of the

Venezuelan constitution empowers not only the military but also ordinary

citizens when there it is a regime that undermines human rights. We

must step up and do whatever it takes. And I think it is time now

for the military to stand up. We saw last Sunday how a fraction of also

military is, former military is, have taken up arms -- and this will

raise the bar of this disproportionate use of weapons by

Maduro. You are advocating insurrection, New Guinea and

treason. A month ago he represented the Venezuelan government. It is

extraordinary. Once again, I represent my country, it is called

Venezuela. And Savile rebellion is in Article 350. I am calling for

that. And you know what the consequence will be - terrible blood

shed across your country. We also know at substantial chunk of the

country, including those who have access to weaponry, are passionately

and deeply committed to defending the socialist revolution and the

Maduro government. So your position seems to me one which is only going

to lead to one thing, which is a bloody civil war. Well, there has

been a bloody situation in Venezuela for 18 years. As you are aware,

350,000 people have died in this period for criminal and violent

crimes. 30,000 every year. So it has already begun. It is a matter of how

to stop his criminal organisation that has hijacked the country. I

don't think there is a way out through dialogue. They just stall

and delay these dialogues because they have nowhere to run. It is not

an ordinary situation, Stephen. And we must be clear about that. This is

not an ordinary government or ideology. It is a criminal

organisation that has terrorist ties and drug trafficking tyres. So this

makes a huge difference on what their objectives and their agenda

is. You say there is no more room for dialogue, assuming therefore

that you think that direct physical confrontation is the only inevitable

outcome. I just wonder whether you pause for a moment to think about

the 85% of your countrymen and women who are currently living in poverty

- children whose malnutrition rates are soaring across Venezuela.

Maternal mortality rates going through the roof. Children, we see

the terrible images of them scavenging through the food in the

garbage cans. Do you really think that violent confrontation is going

to help them deal with their day-to-day economic crisis? I'm

sorry to say that you are not the right, but that Nicolas Maduro's

regime has been killing the people, not only from hunger, lack of

medicine and treatment, but also in the street. And I wish there was

another way out. That is why I called the international community

for an international humanitarian intervention. And I think...

Honestly, I think about this every day, offer an alternative. But they

don't seem to be able to want to offer real negotiation. That is why

I believe Maduro should capitulate, and he should be accountable to the

International Criminal Court. Yes, but we have to deal in the real

world. I mean, there is no sign he is going to capitulate. The

commander of his armed forces has also declared his absolute loyalty

to the stability of the current government. So capitulation is not

on the agenda. You have talked about your desire to see an immediate

international humanitarian intervention. I wonder what you mean

by that? Do you mean you want to see people come into Venezuela from

outside with arms? Armed Forces? Well, so far what we have seen is

students with sticks and stones fighting disproportionate use of

force by the Maduro's regime. So they are shooting and killing

demonstrators, and I don't think the effect has been great, by the

international media. At but in reality, as you said, there is no

way to defeat all its against stones. It is a textbook David

against Goliath. I believe we are going to win, if at the end of the

day, as you have seen. Now it is going to be another confrontation.

Is there another way out? I would like to hear what you think about

it, because I don't see it. Well, I am more interested about what you

think, particularly about this notion of intervention. We have seen

in recent days Donald Trump's administration slapped new sanctions

on Maduro personally, and some of his key associates. They say they

are going to do more. But what they haven't done yet is put direct

sanctions on Venezuela's oil exports. The EU as well have come up

with some harsh words but it hasn't actually imposed serious sanctions

on Maduro's regime yet. So are you satisfied with what you are seeing?

And we can talk about Latin America too. Are you satisfied with what you

are seeing from the international community, when it comes to a

response to what is happening inside your country? I am grateful for the

response and sanctions from the US and the EU. I believe also

yesterday's Lima declaration was incredibly effective, and also other

countries in other regions should manifest and express the same

support to the illegal National Assembly that was elect did in 2015.

But I will not be satisfied until this regime stops pressing and

killing and leaves Venezuelans to choose their own government. But

when you appealed to the international community, you allow

Maduro to use this word which was used before him, and now used by

Maduro, imperialism. That is what the Chavismo regime is saying today.

They say that yet again the United States is undertaking plotting and

conspiracy to bring down the socialist revolution. And your

message plays into their hands. This is like gaslight psychological

policy on Maduro. He is trying to divert the reality. He is the only

dictator, totalitarian emperor, that is ruling by oppressing his own

people. There is no imperialism in the international community trying

to help 30 million Venezuelans hijacked I International criminal

organisation. What do you make of those leftist politicians, in

Europe, for example, and we have one in the UK, the Leader of the

Opposition Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, who have long been friends,

sympathises with, the socialist revolution in Venezuela, and who are

these days very careful in their words about the Venezuela crisis?

For example, the other day Mr Corbyn wouldn't name Mr Maduro directly. He

said I condemn all the violence from all sides. He says we have to

recognise that there have been effective and serious attempt at

reducing poverty and Venezuela. You know, is that satisfactory, as far

as you are concerned, from a leading western politician in response to

the crisis? Not at all, and it is impossible to defend the

indefensible. When you can see clearly the violation of human

rights and the crimes against humanity that have been committed in

the last four months, it is impossible to defend, quote unquote

socialist utopia. It is actually a dystopia. It is unsustainable. You

can see the inflation. Maduro has actually done something incredible.

He has converted Venezuela to be the first country in corruption,

inflation, violence, and this is completely unsustainable, and it is

unacceptable. So I think that the your problem is the more you list

the failings in the tragedy of Venezuela today, the more I am left

scratching my head as to why it is that... And remember, I was in

Venezuela relatively recently, why it is that there is still a hard

core of passionate support for Chavismo, for the socialist

revolution. I am not saying this is direct port, personal support for Mr

Maduro, but there is clearly, amongst a substantial chunk of the

Venezuelan population, our desire to see that the socialist revolution is

not dismantled. Are you prepared to accept that? No, what I do

understand is there is that chunk that you are talking about, ten,

12%, that have been controlled by the regime, giving them certain

privileges that are very difficult and within the hardships it is

understandable. But the population are looking for a way out. I believe

also they want to feel represented. So this is a colossal... I don't

think it is just that. It is also a deep distrust of some of the

opposition leaders and political parties, are feeling that first of

all they are deeply divided and don't have a coherent vision for

Venezuela's future, but also they are driven by their own economic

interests, that they are to a certain extent, if I can use the

word, the Venezuelan oligarchs. And that is a real fear that a lot of

poorer Venezuelans have. That is why this change will be so important for

Venezuela's Reconstruction and reconciliation, to allow pluralism

into the political equation. And this is a call for the opposition to

open up and make it more accessible. For all the population to be

involved in the decision-making in politics. Like, for example, the

mandate of 16 July was very clear. So right now what we need to see

from the National Assembly, where the opposition political leaders are

still sitting back, is to make the right choices. Right now, they must

appoint their government. And this is why the international community

must recognise them as a legal entity. We have to end soon, but you

are an interesting figure because you have always made a point of

saying you don't belong to a party. We have spoken to the leader of one

of the main opposition parties. I met the family of Leopoldo Lopez,

who is back in prison, another significant Leader of the Opposition

movement. These are established party people, but who do you think

can be the Venezuelan who can somehow build bridges between the

polarised elements within your society, and stop your country

falling into conflict and possibly civil war? Who is it? Well, I think

it is every Venezuelan. It is not only one person. We should not try

to personalise this, but try to listen to the voices in the streets.

They are asking Maduro to leave his post, first thing, and second, they

are asking the opposition not to negotiate. Not to go to elections,

because they are fraudulent, and it would be recognising this

unconstitutional constituent assembly, and they must listen to

the people in the street. This is the real Venezuela. Yes, but the

people need leadership. Where the leadership? Well, leadership you can

find in very different places, but for certain, the real leadership is

in the streets and that is... Evidence has shown on why this is

the change right now. And are you going to leave Miami and go back to

fight for your country's future inside Venezuela? I am ready to do

whatever it takes. That is why I have not applied for political

asylum, so that I can be free to travel to Venezuela, or wherever my

country needs me. So I am ready to fight. Isaias Medina, I thank you

very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you, Stephen.

Much of the country was fine and dry, with some good,

But it was atrocious across the south-east,

cold and wet, like this Weather Watcher behind me depicts