Witold Waszczykowski, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Poland HARDtalk

It has just gone past half past two in the morning. That means it is

time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab

Badawi. What is going on in Poland? In July, the European Union began

legal action against the Polish government over proposed reforms,

that critics say will politicise the legal system. It has threatened to

withdraw funding and suspend voting rights in EU. My guess today is

Witold Waszczykowski. It is Poland turning away from liberal democracy?

And what does this mean for its people and its place in Europe and

the world. -- my guest tiday. -- today.

Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski, and Warsaw, welcome

to HARDtalk. Your party won the elections but is now facing

criticisms. What has gone wrong? I don't think anything is wrong in

Poland. We are running the country for the last 21 months. We have very

strong democratic mandates from our people in Poland. And we are trying

to modernise the country, develop the country, and of course to stay

in the European Union and in Nato and implement all the decisions of

these institutions, also here in Poland. After the fall of the Soviet

Union, Poland was seen as a bastion of liberal democracy. We had the

leader of the Solidarity movement who became president and want the

Noble peace prize. The World Bank heaped praise on Poland for making

such a successful transition from communism to democracy. And now

look, you are getting criticisms from abroad, and also internally,

for being too authoritarian. We are still a democratic country, and we

want to continue our McReddie process. But we want democracy

without objectives. I live long enough, so I got to live in a

democracy with objectors. -- continue our democratic process.

Some people try to create other democracies, liberal democracies,

and that exclude some ideas and concepts. We just want to stay on

the democratic course and to be a democratic country without

objectives. We continue the transformation of the country. It is

developing at a high speed right now, about 4% growth per year. And

all democratic institutions are preserved and kept by our

institutions and our government and parliament. So those accusations

about authoritarianism are wrong. In May, tens of thousands of people

protested on the streets of Warsaw at what they say are curbs on

democracy. Critics claim that you are introducing reforms in the

judiciary which would compromise the independence of the courts, and give

too much power to the Justice minister, who is also the prosecutor

general. Yes, you are right. Tens of thousands of protesters were

protesting on the streets. But for millions of polish people that did

not protest, and our party and how we govern, where supported by 30% of

the population in Poland. We have a clear mandate to transform and

democratise the judicial system, which was left untouched for 28

years, says the Communist times. So I think that this is a judgement of

the opposition here in Poland, who find it difficult to accept the

verdict of the election which happened almost two years ago. --

since the Communist. They using this as an excuse just to judge

incorrectly our judgement. But can I put it to you that even the

President, Andrew Dudayev, a former member of your party, once these

proposals amended, because he says giving the Justice Minister the

power to dismiss members of the judiciary is not democratic. So even

the President is critical. -- Ondrej Duda. We accept that two vetoes, and

this discussion goes back to the Parliament. We will get together

with parliamentarians to find a solution for this problem. But even

the President, as you mentioned, he is critical about the contemporary

situation of the judiciary system. We have two continue the

transmission of the system. But maybe the better way. Everything is

going back to the Parliament to find a better solution for the

Parliament, to the judiciary system in Poland. You have angered the

European Union. The European Commission has announced legal

action against the Polish government. It is citing acute

concern about the independence of the Polish courts, which it says

will be undermined. So what are you going to do about that? You have

been invited for talks with the European Commission. Are you going

to discuss and amended the proposals, watered down? What is

going to happen? Yes, we engage Win a dialogue with commission. -- we

engaged in a dialogue. We are patient, and patiently, we are

trying to discuss and inform the commission about the process. The

process is going on, as you mentioned, even with some legal

action of the Parliament having been stopped by the President. So there

is a Cellino time for the commission to interfere in this situation. --

so there is absolutely. I don't see any legal excuse for the commission

to be engaged right now. We will exchange letters and opinions with

people like Mr Tillmans, but I don't see reason for the commission to

interfere in reforms and transformation of the system in

Poland. -- Tillerman. So the Polish government will have talks with the

European Commission, but you say you will not listen to opinions or take

advice at all. You will listen, but won't -- you will talk to me but

won't listen at all? I think that is wrongly evaluating our situation. --

talk to them. We engage in a dialogue. Just a few days go, I sent

a letter to Mr Timmermans, and asked for additional clarification on his

accusation against Polish reforms. I keep reminding him and others that

the process is not finished. It is ongoing. It back to the Parliament.

We don't see any reason why it the commission should interfere right

now. You also being criticised other reforms that are seen as falling

short of European Union values. Last year, there was a controversial law

approved to allow Poland to appoint the heads of TV and radio. Poland

has been accused of threatening, and European values. As you write an end

and the threat as you rightly mentioned, this is public radio and

television. This is owned by state owned institutions. -- as you

rightly mentioned. The situation is in European Union countries, and we

are not touching the private media, or interfering in private TV or

radio or newspapers, but those media who belong to the state, of course

they are ruled by the state owned institutions. This is a prerogative

of the state to nominate the chiefs of these institutions. Just like in

other countries, in other member states of the European Union. But

they are not attracting the criticisms that you are now. I mean,

for example, it is not just the European Union. The Council of

Europe, which is not part of Europe, the human rights Commissioner, he is

critical of Poland placing is public service media under direct

government control will stop so whatever you are doing, it is not

quite the same as other European Union countries. -- Humans Rights

Commissioner. You go beyond by having this direct government

control, Ajer? I can only repeat what I said. I'm not the expert on

this. I and the Foreign Minister. So I prefer to engage in the foreign

policy of Poland, which is also important for the European Union and

the future of the European Union. But I can only repeat what I heard

from the experts that we are repeating and copying the solutions

which exist everywhere in many countries. -- I am the Foreign

Minister. All right. One thing that you do look at is this issue of

refugees. In June, the European Commission again launched an EU law

infringement procedure against Poland because you are refusing to

take in refugees, as part of an EU wide quota system. Why should Poland

be exempt from this? We disagree with the commission about the

mechanics of so-called relocation, because decisions are taken against

the international treaties, the European treaties, against

international and European law. It is euphemistic to save relocation,

because in fact this is resettlement by force of people who do not want

to be resettled to a country like Poland. So we disagree with the

commission. The second problem is that we already have a large number

of migrants coming from the eastern part of Europe. Only last year, we

issued more than 1,200,000 visas for the Ukrainians. The majority chose

to stay in Poland. There are also migrants. I don't know why they are

coming from the Middle East and North Africa, why they are supposed

to be better evaluated, that are taking care of, by the institutions

in Europe than migrants coming from, also touched by war, Ukraine. So we

are the country which is open for migration, but we disagree with the

mechanics of taking decisions about migrants and refugees. So basically,

Poland does not want to take any migrants and refugees from the

Middle East and Africa, and the criticism there is that because

Poland is a very much in this country, with only 0.4% of your

population made up of foreigners. Over 90% are Roman Catholic. Cedar

one was a migrants. I will give you an example of what the Deputy Prime

Minister said last year. -- so not very many migrants. He said people

would be blown up. Is that what people don't like about Poland?

These ideas exist in the Polish population. More than 75% of polls

do not want to accept this relegation by force of the migrants

from North Africa and the Middle East. But we try to implement the

decisions of the commission from September 2015, and many months ago,

we sent our border guards to the camps in Italy and Greece, we sent

also security officers. Firstly try to identify some of these people.

And of course, the majority of them it is very difficult to identify

them. They do not have documents. This is a threat for the security of

the country. Of course, nobody from these migrants, these refugees, we

prefer to see migrants, had any inclination to emigrate to Poland.

So we cannot accept the situation. This progress in the European Union

is decided by relocation by force people who do not want be relocated

country like Poland. -- relocated to a country. This is a sentiment that

underscores what you have just said that make people unhappy about the

comments that are coming from official Poland, for example, the

chairman of the ruling party, said in April last year why he did want

refugees. These people bringing diseases, parasites, bacteria, they

don't affect them, but affect us. Is that kind of comment acceptable, to

using? Once again, I can only repeat that

75% of the Polish population is accepting the policing of the

government, not to accept the decision of the EU to resettle by

force people from Africa and the Middle East. We don't want to commit

suicide as a politician and a government, to go against the public

would do that. The accusation as spokesperson for the Catholic

bishops, who are urging Poland to receive refugees, says that fears

have been fuelled by some political parties. According to the Never

Began an organisation which tracks racist attacks in Poland, they say

they have increased considerably in the last year and that there is a

correlation between hate speech of the political class and those

assaults. So, there is a link. I put it to you one more time, are you

happy with the state of affairs? No, of course we are not happy. We have

discussed this issue and the problem of migrants during the visit last

year of Pope Francis. He was visiting us, he gave a speech in

Krakow and he mentioned that there are many ways to support, help and

assist refugees and migrants. He did not mention that Poland was supposed

to accept thousands of people from Syria and the Middle East. He had

the chance to visit the Vatican many times and discuss with the hierarchy

that situation. We all understand that we at first supposed to start

assisting people in the region of Middle East, not Africa. First we

engage with the European to help find them peace, a peaceful solution

for the war. That has been going on already for seven years in Syria. We

are supposed to control the borders of the EU. How are we supposed to

help them relocate in Europe? Both countries who have the ability to

accept these migrants may accept them, those who want to emigrate to

the country are supposed to emigrate. We cannot accept in the

21st century, resettlement by force. Once again, we are accepting

millions of migrants coming from Ukraine and other areas. Poland is

finding these people in Poland. You made that point, thank you. All

these things we have been discussing have drawn a lot of criticism from

the EU Poland. Poland is that biggest recipient of EU funding. In

2015, you received 13.4 billion euros in funding. You cannot afford

to fall out with the EU, can you? This funding, these structured funds

and subsidies which are part of the agreement between member states,

they are derived from the treaties. These funds have nothing to do with

the behaviour of the country. It is compensation for the opening of the

economic system, for the opening of the market, the investment, the

deals with other economies, stronger economies of the Western EU. Is

nothing to do with... It is not a reward for us for being liberal or

ante liberal. I reject this accusation that we are supposed to

give up receiving these funds because we are not behaving

correctly, according to some... Who do you think is making... Who is

making that accusation? I'll give you an example. The German vice

chancellor says, those countries that do not share a German values

should not count on German financial help. Germany is the biggest

contributor, by far, to the EU's funding. Are you saying that Poland

is not that risk of a withdrawal of EU funding? We cannot combine the

situation of migrants or European values to the economic operation,

because structural funds, this is a reward for the opening of the

economy, for the weaker economy, for cooperation with a stronger economy

of the Western European economy. It has to do with the population, with

the economy, but not with migrants. Is not a reward for accepting

migrants. Another thing that is creating some concern, in January of

this year, the United States deployed troops on Polish soil for

the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union. Germany in particular

is concerned about Nato exercises in Poland and the Baltics. And

increasing tensions with Russia. Are you not concerned about worsening

ties with Moscow? We are concerned already, for at least three years,

by the behaviour of Russia. Let me remind you that Russia initiated a

rebellion and have acted in regards to Crimea. There are incidences on

the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. Some years ago, Russia initiated

aggression against Georgia. So, reacting to this Russian policing,

Nato decided to build a special unit to support the security of the

Eastern area of Nato. Last year in Warsaw, Nato decided to deploy extra

troops. A somewhat tenuously decided, the United States decided

to send a whole brigade. Nato are correctly reacting to the acts of

Russia. Nato is defending and deterring, but also trying to keep a

dialogue with Russia. We support this dialogue. I have to put to

you... We sent deputy ministers to Moscow for dialogue. We then sent

another deputy to Moscow. We are reacting positively, but we do not

have a positive ads from the other side. Finally, are you enjoying

being Foreign Minister of Poland at this rather difficult time when you

are getting all these criticisms we have been discussing on this

HARDtalk? I can repeat what I started in the beginning, which I

did not finish is successfully because you prevented me to tell

you, for the very first time, we have clearly defined our foreign

goals and targets and policy. We have clearly defined our interest.

This interest is to implement, using the membership of the EU and of

Nato. Some of these interests do not coincide with the others, the other

members of this institution. We have a discussion, a live debate with

this. This is a decision or an action of the commission, it is only

a smokescreen. There are real problems of security, energy, with

the Common Market in Europe after Brexit. Decisions about Smart

protection, which is suggested by some other Western politicians. We

prefer to discuss, and I engage in discussion with my colleagues these

issues. But not directly with that conversation. This is an excuse to

deprive Poland of our position and to weaken our position in the

future, and in the budget of the European Union possibly. I have to

phrase the fact that this is not an easy job, but so far, successful.

Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski in Warsaw, thank you

very much for coming on HARDtalk. Thank