Pravin Gordhan, Former South African Finance Minister HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

For more than two decades, the ANC has been South Africa's

impregnable political structure, but now cracks are appearing.

At least 30 ANC MPs defied the party whip and supported a no confidence

motion against party leader and national President,

My guest today is Pravin Gordhan, the man

President Zuma sacked as finance minister in controversial

Does the ANC need to be broken up to enable South Africa to thrive?

Pravin Gordhan in Johannesburg, welcome to HARDtalk thank you, thank

you for having me. Long distance as it might be. Let's consider what is

happening in your country today and particularly the fallout from the

motion of no-confidence against President Jacob Zuma, which didn't

succeed, but got 177 votes, which was significant. It clearly included

a substantial number of ANC MPs. How toxic is the atmosphere inside the

ANC as a result of that vote? There certainly is an active debate and

discussion of ideas. To answer questions that you have raised in

your introduction, the ANC is still absolutely crucial to South Africa's

future, the values, programmes and policies of the ANC are extremely

relevant now and possibly for the next decade or two, they are

policies that can still banned this nation together and increase

prospects for South Africa. However, to be frank, we have gone through a

period of disclosures which has demonstrated to South Africans and

the world that the state machinery and resources are being used in the

wrong kind of way. It is important to distinguish between the ANC as an

organisation and its values and programmes on the other hand, and

individuals who currently, in the view of many, don't perform their

responsibilities in accordance with those values. You talk about the

need to be frank. In that spirit, the chief whip of the ANC said that

there should be a disciplinary process for all those MPs who voted

for the motion of no confidence in Jacob Zuma. Do you agree? He is

reported as having said that there should have been a witch-hunt. This

is a moment where we need to step back a bit as an organisation and

reflect on what are the reasons for ending up where we are today. And in

a self-critical way, as many documents of the ANC, formally

presented at the meetings indicate, they are things to reflect on.

Amongst others, why do we have so much corruption and what do we do

about it? Ways this corruption about one family and a broader syndicate,

and what does it have in terms of impacts on the state, and there are

billions of dollars of public money, they are putting that money into

different accounts in different parts of the world? And finally, how

do we unite the organisation in line with Nelson Mandela and his values?

I want to talk about those issues of governance in some detail, but

sticking with what is happening inside the ANC for a bit longer. It

was a secret ballot, nobody needed to tell anyone else how they voted

in that vote. But how did you vote? As we said, it was a secret ballot.

Like myself and a number of others who said our conscience would guide

us, and in addition, we have a seminal judgement from the

constitutional court and an equally seminal statement from the Speaker

of our parliament, which indicates that the oath we have taken in the

Parliament is an oath to the Republic and the Constitution.

Finally, our duty lies with the people of South Africa. I think I am

quite experienced at Reading between the lines and I think I understand

what you are saying. I note that on July 18, you clearly said, it is

time for Jacob Zuma to move aside. So we can assume you voted for the

motion of no confidence, I think. How do you feel when the police

Minister has talked about the need for a lie detector test to sort out

who stayed loyal and who was disloyal to Jacob Zuma? How would

you react to being faced with a lie detector test? In the first

instance, I think the police Minister is misdirecting his energy.

He should take the lie detector equipment to the area where the

raptors reside and others visit and ask them to declare to the South

African public in the world how much money they are taking from the

public and if we can have it back -- Guptas. The second issue is that the

alliance members have raised this issue today, and the South African

Communist Party, the issue is, why is attention given to a certain

number of ANC employees who may have crossed the line, so to speak, but

there are a range of corrupt activities that are not being given

the same attention. You keep tempting me to get directly onto the

issue of corruption, you have already introduced the Guptas to

this, the successful business family at the centre... There is Belle

Pottinger as well. You expressed the thought that the ANC remains crucial

to South Africa's future and you have expressed your loyalty.

Discussing the atmosphere inside the party today. Reading social media

and other reports, I know that you have faced threats since the vote of

no-confidence. One person in particular said, quoting not mean I

saw on social media, said that you should be necklaced, a term used

during the apartheid. Are you frightened right now about the sort

of anger and toxic atmosphere inside your party, some directed at you

personally? No, there is reason to be concerned, there is no doubt

about that. That kind of remarks, those remarks about necklacing, that

is totally unwarranted. It does not represent our country at this point

in time. But remember that we have a large number of people who survived

the apartheid period, they have survived different types of torture

and maltreatment at the hands of the apartheid regime. They, like myself,

are not about to give up on the ANC and the values we hold the. Jacob

Zuma says it is a matter of loyalty -- we hold dear. During the

apartheid, many people wanted to destroy the ANC, apartheid

representatives themselves included. Jacob Zuma is saying to the South

African public, if you move against me, you're not just damaging me but

the entire party, letting our enemies and opponents win. How do

you respond? Very simply. There is a lot of reflecting that the president

needs to do about what and whom is causing damage to the reputation of

the ANC, resulting in the increasing lack of trust and the deficit of

trust that there is between South African citizens and our

organisation. Our aim is to increase the level of trust to sustain the

support for the South African national congress, and ensure they

are in a position to win the election in 2019. Others might have

a short-term objective of participating in the looting of the

state for their personal benefit. Let's not get ahead of ourselves

talking about 2019 elections. Talking about the ANC choice as to

who should lead the party after Jacob Zuma. His term runs out at the

end of the year. It seems he wants his ex-wife to take over. The other

leading candidate who has stood has made his intentions known. Who are

you backing? The ANC will discuss it in September. The candidate is

qualified to lead a better future for all South Africans. Looking at

his record, he has been woven into the governing elite of business and

politics since the liberation struggle. Records suggest that he

has remained loyal to Jacob Zuma in a series of no-confidence votes and

the dispute about how Jacob Zuma spend money on his estate. Far from

being a reformer, this is a man who has been deeply embedded in the old

ANC elite. That is one view. Ramaphosa is one contestant, there

will be other people competing for that as well. There will be a

crossroads at some point. He will be able to put his credentials before

you. Like many others, he has strong credentials. The creator of the

national union of Mineworkers. A key negotiator who gave us the basis for

the first Democratic elections. The 1996 final constitution in South

Africa as well. All of us have pluses and minuses. I think for a

significant number of people, perhaps some of the minuses that you

point out... It is not about what you have done or not done, the key

is who has a singular adherence to the principles of the ANC and is

willing to take South Africa out of the mess it finds itself in,

particularly economically as I pointed out. We need growth well

above the 0.5, 1% growth. We need to create jobs on a massive scale, we

need investment on a massive scale. We require not just a visionary

leadership, but an action orientated leadership that will put South

Africa on a different trajectory. You know there is a powerful set of

voices who may be coalescing around the economic freedom fighters who

say that the problem with people like Ramaphosa, and possibly

yourself as well, is that you don't have a radical vision. In the end,

you are still in the pockets of the old elite. They have said that

Ramaphosa should not call himself a black South African, they have said

he should call himself nonwhite as he is still in the pocket of the old

elite. The issue is freedom of speech and freedom of polemic in

this case. The polemic... But political contestant for power, if

we don't have the right leadership and don't implement the policies we

have, then, like any other Democratic situation, we will lose

the elections in 2019. One more political question, and then I will

get onto allegations of corruption and governance. Will you continue

your campaign to see Jacob Zuma removed from office after 2017? He

will no longer be the leader of ANC but he will still be the president

of the nation. He could and it seems will be determined to see his office

through to the end of 2018. Will you be advocating his removal?

That will be the responsibility of the new leadership and lack the... I

am just asking you... I might not even be part of that. I have not

been campaigning. To a large extent, I have been a victim of very

ill-advised decisions made in respect of governance in this

country. Downgrades, lack of confidence, drop in investment. What

we want to see, as I said repeatedly, is to turn that

narrative and situation around so we have a different trajectory into the

future. The leadership of the AMC will be elected and they will be

decide what the answer is. Clearly, you will not give me a direct

answer. Let's talk about you and these issues. You made a point of

mentioning the Guptas and state capture, the degree to which they

have exercised power at the heart of government. Allegations they

consistently have denied but you believe them to be true. Do you

believe you are fired by Jacob Zuma, in particularly the second firing

from the Finance Ministry, because of influence exercised by business

interests who wanted you out? In the first term, I left at the end of the

five-year term. In the second instance I did get fired and there

is a strong belief there is a link between the kind of interests and

objectives this particular family have in South Africa, including

making sure that they interfere with the banking system and the rights in

respect of having clients or not having clients interfere with the

decision possibly to be made which would have enabled them to buy a

bank and carry on with whatever they want to carry on with. The kind of

activities going on in the state and enterprises, institutions, all of

which are coming to the surface... This is important. You heard in a

recent interview, one of the Guptas Guptas rejecting the allegations of

leaked e-mails. Saying they were not authentic and denying key dramatic

allegations about her example $40 million allegedly offered to the

deputy finance minister if he would take charge of the ministry on the

understanding he would do the Guptas Guptas bidding. There is a

fundamental? . Should they believe these allegations going to the top

of government? Is there any reason why we should believe anything that

the Guptas have to say. I cannot find the U in categorical terms that

the Deputy Minister of South Africa was offered 600 million g is a bribe

in order to take position as the Finance Minister which he rejected

and, as a consequence, he was dismissed, as I was towards the end

of March this year. Secondly, a number of others implicated and

mentioned in the e-mails you refer to, have not contested the truth and

in fact have provided explanations either to vindicate themselves at

all to extricate themselves from the allegations of... Guptas are you

ready to see the Guptas in court because they denied the allegations?

It is not my job. It is the job of the law enforcement entities to

intervene where the risk corruption in relation to the private and

public sector in the rations and use of these e-mails and other

information in the public domain to enforce the laws of this country to

ensure that anybody who has a business here should be lower by

adding and a question that should concern at the British government is

Bell Pottinger, creating racial tensions in this country in the

course of serving the financial interests of this particular family.

... Hang on. You are throwing in lots of things at once. I will come

back to Bell Pottinger in a second. One basic question about the AMC and

you being a long-time member and your loyalty to it. -- ANC. But what

is more important getting to the truth of these allegations or the

health of the a and C because if the investigation ultimately means

people at the top of the ANC get damage, there may be a choice. Which

is your priority- getting to the truth that all protecting the AMC?

Getting to the truth will protect the am at sea. The court in South

Africa has said that a commission of enquiry it needs to be appointed...

We haven't not got... ANC there is agreement in the ANC that a

commission of that nature headed by a respected judge and needs to be

put in place so these allegations can be tested and evidence provided

the only question is when it will be done. If the allegations are proven

to be correct and we can extricate these cancer, the ANC will be alive

and well with the aspirations of South African citizens and ensure

our in coming and society moves in the right direction. Bell Pottinger,

a big PR firm based in London working with the Guptas Guptas. One

thing it seems they decided would be helpful to the Guptas east to

undertake these narrative that says that according to the Guptas problem

is still the dominant of what is called white monopoly capital and to

a certain extent they have a point because if one looks at the

inequality in South Africa today, who really holds the wealth?

Disproportionately it is still the white people. Who owns the land?

Disproportionately the white people. People in government has signally

failed to address this. Not quite true. Remember what we have in South

Africa and something we constantly need to remind ourselves is a

constitutional arrangement that came out the political settlement. Not

one side conquered the other and was able to reshape both the politics

and the economy. Secondly you might want to remember that, as part of

ensuring stability, Mr Mandela and his colleagues in the 1990s leading

to the 1994 election they did a couple of things- they agreed to a

government of national unity, secondly they agreed that a Finance

Minister of the previous apartheid leader would continue for a short

while in order to reassure the markets that nothing untoward would

happen so stabilising the situation in South Africa economically was

quite important for the politics to take root as well. Thirdly, any

amount of translation has taken place. There is a lot of hard work

to do. A lot of reconstructing to do but what is happening currently in

terms of the pilfering of state finances and the undermining of

state institutions is delaying that project. We have to end like this,

you talk about reconstructing and reforming South Africa. It may be

the best way to do this is that people like you to leave the ANC and

join a different political movement. Will you ever leave the ANC? After

40 years of contribution to the struggle here in South Africa and to

the African National Congress, not at this stage and remember that the

ANC is an organisation and is part of our history is very close to the

heart of the majority of South Africans. Some might be disappointed

with what we have seen recently but we have to respect it has a massive

support on the ground. If we get it right in December, the support will

return to the ANC and we will continue to reform South Africa in

the right kind of way. I must thank you very much by being on HARDtalk.

Thank you for having me.