Mostefa Souag - Director General, Al Jazeera Media Network HARDtalk

When the Al Jazeera news network was launched in Qatar in 1996,

it had a seismic impact on the media landscape in the Middle East.

Here was an Arab broadcaster refusing to play by local rules.

It was ambitious, punchy and provocative in its coverage

Two decades on, maybe it's time for payback.

Saudi Arabia and its closest allies recently demanded Qatar close

My guest is Mostefa Souag, director general of Al Jazeera.

We have to start with the threat of closure that appeared to be hanging

over Al Jazeera just a few short days ago. The threat of course which

came from Saudi Arabia and its allies, which demanded the closing

of the Al Jazeera network as a condition for lifting an economic

blockade on Kantar. Weekly with me. -- Qatar. Is there still a risk you

may have to shut down? Well, first of all I would like to say that Al

Jazeera has created the new media environment in the Middle East, in

the Arab world. There is something that is called before Al Jazeera and

since Al Jazeera. The threat that this -- these countries are

targeting Al Jazeera is of course... Any threat is a serious threat for

us, but Qatar has said clearly that Al Jazeera is not for negotiation.

We don't feel any threat whatsoever in this respect. The only thing that

we are sorry for is that we don't have the chance to be in the field

in these countries because reporting from the field is what we do best.

However, we will continue reporting about these countries and about all

other countries whenever there is an issue of relevance to our audience.

It is very unlikely you will get out your presence in Saudi Arabia, for

example, when the information minister that describes you as a

defamation tool of manufactured news. You've become an instrument,

he says, in the hands of Al Qaeda, Daesh, so-called Islamic State, and

Hezbollah. It doesn't sound like the Saudis will want you back any time

soon. Maybe not, but the information minister just days before the

decision was made by this country -- these countries was welcoming Al

Jazeera as a professional media institution. There was no problem

then. What kind of revelation that he got in order to make such a

statement? Al Jazeera has never been such a thing as we mentioned and we

have never received any specific complaint from the Saudis, or from

any of the countries, except in certain cases with certain countries

when they complain about our professional reporting, because they

don't like us to tell the truth, they don't like us to tell people

what's going on exactly. They don't want us to bring opposition leaders

to discuss the issue, et cetera. That's the only complaint we found

and that kind of complaint is actually our benefit because it

shows how professional we are. You call it truth telling, it isn't

always seen as truth telling, is it? It is seen as polemic and opinion

which you inject into your coverage. We should be clear for your

audiences around the world that the criticism is aimed at Al Jazeera

Arabic rather than Al Jazeera English. But the quote someone from

the Arab Gulf state's institute, a respected think tank, he says of Al

Jazeera Arabic it goes much further than Fox News. He says it is like

Fox News on steroids, flirting with the promotion of violence. Mmm. I

don't really know how respected this man or this institution...

Especially when it deals with Al Jazeera. It is obvious that he is

following the political line of the country where he is. However, I can

tell you that just recently we had tried to look into the publications

about Al Jazeera. There are more than 280 books and Ph.D.

Dissertations and masters degrees, et cetera, in addition to hundreds

and hundreds of academic papers. All of them consider Al Jazeera a very

highly professional institution. They don't agree with him at all.

Now, when I am saying this I am talking about Al Jazeera in general.

Arabic, English, et cetera. What's the difference between Al Jazeera

Arabic and Al Jazeera English? Some people try to make the distinction

in the Arab world in particular to give the impression to the Western

academics or the Western audience that Al Jazeera Arabic is different

from Al Jazeera English. That's not true. I can show you... Excuse me,

just one minute. There are so many articles and studies that show there

is no difference in our editorial line. The difference is in certain

topics, as in some cases we cover things for our audience in the

Middle East that is not covered by English and vice-versa. Because...

Let me stop you. We are interested in giving our audience what is

relevant to our audience, not what is not relevant. I can give you many

examples of this. I do want to rely on the testimony of those who

clearly come from countries where there is a decision taken at Al

Jazeera is very bad news. I want to rely more on the testimony of people

who'd actually worked inside your organisation. Let me start with Greg

Colstream Park a former staffer on Al Jazeera who was there for nearly

four years. I don't know if you know him personally but on this first

issue of whether the difference is significant between Al Jazeera

English and Arabic, he says, quote, there was and there still is a vast

gulf between Arabic and Al Jazeera English. They share a name but

little else, even operating out of separate buildings, across the

street from each other, and their editorial lines are very sharply

different. Now he's not one of your enemies, he used to work for Al

Jazeera. I don't know, I don't consider him an enemy, I just would

like to ask you. Could you ask him if we understand Arabic and he has

been watching Al Jazeera Arabic very seriously in order to make such a

statement? That's an interesting... No, it is very important because in

certain cases people pronounce or make this kind of pronouncement

without being able to even understand what's going on. That's

an interesting point. The topics, the issues are different, you see,

but the editorial line is the same. We don't use two different editorial

lines. That very point you made has been used against you. For example,

the UAE ambassador who was on HARDtalk a few days ago spoke about

this problem of the messages that come out of Al Jazeera and he said,

the problem is that many of the journalist in Al Jazeera English

don't understand Arabic and they are now going to the barricades,

standing up for what they think is an issue of press freedom, when they

don't even realise that the messages coming out of Al Jazeera Arabic are

different and they are being used in effect as a fig leaf for extremism.

That's what the ambassador says. Well, I'm really sorry to hear such

a thing from the ambassador. I know the ambassador, to Moscow, I

believe. That's right. I can tell you something. These people, they

have never complained about our coverage, except now after the

blockade started they have started speaking about Al Jazeera is

supporting terrorism. Now, I have seen some of their advertisers and

some of the videos that they put online -- advertisements. They are

taken out of context and I can read to you some of the things they said,

compared to what actually happened on Al Jazeera. It is false that

occasion, distorting. -- falsification. Unfortunately you

can't take the testimony of such a person very seriously. It's not true

and we can go into details if you like. We will go into a few details,

let's keep it as brief and simple as we can. The coverage matters and

people around the world will have to judge for themselves whether you're

reporting has, as you put it, being truth telling. Starting in Syria,

for example. Let's talk about the man who was your correspondent based

in Germany. He quit in 2012 because he says your coverage of serious

since the rioting began in 2011 has become so partisan and one-sided he

could not stomach it any more. Yes. He was a very good reporter. He was

the editorial chief in Germany for Al Jazeera Arabic and he is one of

two or three people who actually left Al Jazeera on their own. He

decided to go. Not the ones where we decided him to go and he claimed he

resigned. So he resigned for the very simple reason that he is 100%

with the Assad regime and he couldn't swallow the fact that we

were reporting from the field about the revolution, about the

resistance, about the opposition, et cetera. This is what he couldn't

take. Hang on... I don't have any information, I don't have sure

information, but I assumed that he was actually forced by the

government to do so. You can't... You can't this merge his reputation

on air like that without frankly giving him the right of reply. We

don't know what his right of reply would say to that, but it sounds

very odd that you stay on the one hand he was a journalist of high

reputation whom you chose to employ as one of your most senior

correspondence and then when he comes out with a statement that he

is deeply unhappy with your reporting you say he is unacceptably

partisan. You can't have it both ways. I agree with you. And I still

respect the guy, but I'm telling you that probably that's what I was

going to say. Most probably he was forced to do that by the agents of

the Syrian government. I don't have any information on this, however, he

never came to told us will -- tell us what we did wrong in Syria. We

were covering Syria very professionally. Maybe it's because,

forgive me for interrupting, but Winnie Together Group is, maybe one

of his problems was that when you have been covering the growth in

radical Islamist militant groups in Syria, for example one of the Al

Qaeda affiliate groups, you have had on air commentators describing them

as" moderate opposition" to basher al-Assad. Anyone who thinks Al Qaeda

affiliate is moderate is taking a very jaundiced view of what's

happening in Syria, aren't they? Yes, but at the time when he

resigned I don't think this issue was raised at all. Not with us, by

him or by any other... This is an issue I'm raising.

I just want to finish with him. I am not accusing him of anything, I am

just saying that maybe he was forced, he was threatened. He never

came to Al Jazeera and said, this report or that report was wrong. It

has never happened. I can challenge him and he can come and show me with

whom he talked. When we cover Syria, like we cover everything else, we

cover all the opposition to the system as we hoped that to cover the

government as well. At this moment, we are still asking the government

or Syria to allow us to work inside, wherever the government controls the

areas. They refuse. They refuse to even answer our letters. For the

rest, we cover everything that we can. There is no reason for Al

Jazeera not to cover something just because somebody doesn't want us to

cover it. We bring knowledge and information to our audience. It is a

question of how you present things. If we manufactured of also buy

something, you can tell me about it. For the rest we are talking about

people who are fighting... We see they are fighting Assad, whether

they are good our bad is not our business -- or. It seems a

remarkable coincidence that, on all the key positions that the cut our

government has taken in regional affairs and issues in recent years,

the Al Jazeera network appears to have backed those positions

completely. Yet you say you never have any interference or any contact

with the ruling family of Qatar, which completely funds your network.

It just seems a very remarkable coincidence. It is, isn't it?

However, let's get back to the state of Qatar that finances Al Jazeera.

How much does it cost every year? That is not something to be... That

is not revealed here. Why? We are both journalists who believe in

transparency. Why can't we discussed... I am not allowed to

tell you now the number. Who is stopping you? Nobody is stopping...

Nobody is stopping me, but there are issues, there are many issues

related to this. I don't think this is the real issue with Al Jazeera. I

think it is important. Whether it is half $1 million or $1 billion, it is

not the issue. The issue is what happened on the ground. Where there

is defer is by the Qatar government or not. Except for the very few

times in my life that I met with the Qatar officials, political

officials, outside Al Jazeera, nothing to do with Al Jazeera, I

have never talked to them and they have never talked to me about

anything that was put on screen. You just used... Whether you believe it

or not is something else. You just used a very interesting phrase. You

said, I am not allowed to tell you that. I want to know who sets the

rules as to what you are and I'm not able to say to me as a fellow

journalist about the way your network works. Most international

news networks believe in transparency. We know who fund them,

we know how they operate and we know what the owners do in terms of

editorial guidance. In the case of Al Jazeera, there is no transparency

at all. When it comes to the budget, usually we don't publish the

information. Who decides this? I am not telling you. The budget

committee decides that, at this moment, we should not put that

figure to the public. At this moment. Maybe in future. What you

and the public need to know is that our, maybe 90% of our budget comes

from the government. That is enough for you. All the things that you see

at financed by the government, by the state of Qatar. My understanding

was that the mayor of Qatar said, you are completely independent. You

are independent, we just finance you. We try to be independent as

much as it can be in any environment. However, you have to

understand, Stephen, that you guys in the West, you work in a very

Democratic environment. You work in a very safe environment. Here are

released, as you can see, the threats against Al Jazeera, this

area is not an easy area to work in. Yet we are among the most courageous

and the boldest and the best in doing investigative reporting and

showing what needs to be shown. This is what you have to take into

consideration. Let's talk about your relationship with the Qatar

authorities. One of your senior political analyst recently described

all of the countries lined up against you at the moment, Saudi

Arabia, the Gulf states, the UAE and Egypt, he described them as

dictatorships. How would you describe the Qatar government? I

don't think it is a dictatorship. I think there is a difference between,

you have royalty in England. Of course it is different, it is

constitutional royalty. There is a royal family in Saudi Arabia and

your man called it a dictatorship. Why is Qatar not a dictatorship?

Look at the difference in practices in the two countries. Excuse me. I

don't want, I am here to talk about Al Jazeera in the media, not about

the political situation. Leave me, I am not afraid to talk about it, it

is just that this is taking the attention away from the real issue

that is facing the media. Media is in a very serious problem in the

Middle East, in North Africa and many countries, including Latin

America. There is a regression in freedom of the media. Hearing Qatar,

in Al Jazeera, we have complete independence. If that is not

understandable, I can understand you. How come you... -- here in. I

have to say, your argument is, in some ways powerful, but in some ways

is losing me. I agree there is a crisis of trust in media across the

world. The only way to address that is by being very transparent and

clear about the way we operate. You operate out of Qatar, you are

completely funded by the Qatar government. You say to me that there

is no comparison between some of your present enemies such as Saudi

Arabia, Egypt and the government of Qatar. I would put to use a precise

opposite. Look at the most recent reports from Amnesty international

and Human Rights Watch. They said Qatar is no more a democracy than

the other Gulf countries. The Amnesty International report said

Qatar authorities continue to unduly restrict the rights to freedom of

expression, association and assembly. When it comes to the

media, in December 2016, an independent news service in Doha was

blocked from all of its Internet service providers. You try and

justify that to me, and tell me that Qatar is fundamentally different

from the other occupants of your region. I am not telling you that

Qatar is a Democratic country yet. I think there have been a lot of good

developments in Qatar. In so many respects. We believe it is coming,

the full democracy. There are now study is going on in order to allow

the journalists in Qatar deunionise, the same thing with Al Jazeera.

These things are coming. I believe it will be coming. You sound like a

minister from the Qatar government. When it comes to freedom of

assembly, expression, freedom of workers to associate in unions, look

at the treatment of migrant workers who are supposed to be building

facilities for the World Cup. You know that on all of these issues,

your network has failed to report the truth from your own host

country. There are two things. Firstly, Al Jazeera has made so many

reports on this particular issue that you are talking about. The

condition of workers. The workers, again, you say that I am taking the

hat of a Qatar Minister. If the truth is they are, you have to say

it. I said I don't want to talk about politics but you are

insisting. I say that there are issues, nobody is saying that Qatar

is 100% a democracy, everything is free, et cetera. We are in progress,

we are working toward this. The government believes in it, members

of the governments believe in those things, but it takes time. I hope to

see one day soon, all of these liberties that you are talking

about. I will see them on the ground. I do have certain faith that

it is going to be. But if you want to discuss this particular issue

about Qatar, you need to talk to the Foreign Minister or the justice

minister, not to me. I don't have the power to do it. I am telling you

that within Al Jazeera, we do what is professionally right. That is

without defence from the government. I understand it is difficult to

understand. For a worked for Al Jazeera, I didn't believe it. But I

saw it with my own eyes, I experienced it and I leave it.

That's how it is. We have to end there, but I thank you very much for

joining me on HARDtalk, Mostefa Souag. You are welcome, thank you.