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Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. | 0:00:01 | 0:00:06 | |
Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk, | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
from Lake Como in Italy. | 0:00:13 | 0:00:16 | |
The venue for the annual Ambrosetti Forum on international affairs. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:20 | |
And one topic dominates discussion here. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:25 | |
The impact of the Trump presidency on the United States and the world. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:35 | |
My guest is the US Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
himself once a candidate for the White House, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
and now a consistent thorn in the side | 0:00:40 | 0:00:42 | |
of President Trump. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:43 | |
So what does Donald Trump mean for traditional notions | 0:00:43 | 0:00:45 | |
of American leadership? | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
Senator Lindsey Graham, welcome. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:10 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:11 | |
You are at this significant gathering of international | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
politicians. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
You have a chance to take the temperature, | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
the mood, when it comes to international perceptions | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
of President Trump today. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:23 | |
How would you characterise them? | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
I think there's a lot of anxiety in Europe about President Trump. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
I don't think that affects him much at home. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
There was a lot of anxiety about President Reagan, | 0:01:32 | 0:01:34 | |
a lot of adulation for President Trump. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
So I'm not so sure that's going to affect domestic politics much. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:39 | |
But people are uncertain, people are unsure. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:43 | |
Who is this guy, what does he think, where is he taking the world? | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
And I can understand that anxiety. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
But anxious for all sorts of reasons, not least the very | 0:01:49 | 0:01:52 | |
significant figures in the United States, | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
like the former director of national intelligence, | 0:01:54 | 0:02:00 | |
James Clapper, who have said they have | 0:02:00 | 0:02:02 | |
very grave doubts about Trump's fitness for office. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
He talked about John's words being scary and disturbing. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:10 | |
Well, I'm not worried about - he's entitled to his opinion. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
But look at the people around President Trump. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
I have not seen a better national security team | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
in my political lifetime. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:18 | |
General Mattis is an excellent Secretary of Defence, | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
General Kelly, the chief of staff, General McMaster, Dan Coats, | 0:02:20 | 0:02:26 | |
the director of national intelligence. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:27 | |
So he has surrounded himself with very quality people | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
we have a traditional view of the world, from a Republican | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
point of view, and I think we're going to be fine. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:38 | |
Well, it surprises me you say that, in a way, because if one looks | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
at your own thoughts about Donald Trump, you have, | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
over time, expressed your own grave reservations about him. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
Every day! | 0:02:47 | 0:02:47 | |
About his abilities as Commander-in-Chief? | 0:02:47 | 0:02:55 | |
During the campaign, I thought some of the things | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
he was saying I thought were incendiary and unhelpful | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
but now he is Commander-in-Chief and I would say this. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:03 | |
The Muslim ban was a shaky start. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
The courts rejected his efforts to restrict people coming | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
into America, because it appeared to be a ban on a religion, | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
and you can't do that in the United States. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
His decision in Afghanistan was a very good decision, | 0:03:13 | 0:03:15 | |
well thought out, and basically, completely different | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
than what he campaigned on. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:19 | |
Well, we will get to that, because I do want to talk | 0:03:19 | 0:03:22 | |
national security issues with you, and US foreign policy. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
But first I want to dig away at some of the most controversial elements | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
of the Trump presidency. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:29 | |
And there is no doubt that his response to the violence | 0:03:29 | 0:03:33 | |
in Charlottesville, and that show of strength, to many people | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
a extremely disturbing show of strength, by neo-Nazis and white | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
supremacists in Virginia. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:39 | |
Donald Trump's reaction to that, and the violence that we saw, | 0:03:39 | 0:03:42 | |
was to talk about blame on many sides. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:46 | |
Yeah. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:47 | |
You condemned that. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
Yeah, I mean, it was an opportunity missed. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:53 | |
He should have come down hard on neo-Nazis and white supremacists. | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
You know, the left has a violent element to it, | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
but it was a moment for him to basically reset some | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
of the things he said in the campaign. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:04 | |
But isn't that the point, | 0:04:04 | 0:04:05 | |
that he, right now, looks like a President who is polarising | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
the United States in a way that we have not seen before? | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
I would say the country's been polarised for quite a while, | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
just like your country. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:16 | |
Brexit is the result of disenchantment with globalisation. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:18 | |
There would be no Donald Trump if Obama had brought us together. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
So the bottom line is, there is a divide. | 0:04:23 | 0:04:25 | |
But here's the good news. | 0:04:25 | 0:04:27 | |
Every corner of the political spectrum pushed back | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
against President Trump's statements. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:34 | |
It is incumbent upon me and others to respect his victory, | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
but also to push back when we have to. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:39 | |
Well, I find that interesting, the way you couch that. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
But let's be honest. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:43 | |
At one point you called him a jackass. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
More recently you've said, I like the guy, and he has | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
a unique personality. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:49 | |
So let's cut to the chase here. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:51 | |
John McCain, your good friend, says it is time for Republicans | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
on Capitol Hill to stand up to Donald Trump. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:56 | |
We are not his subordinates, McCain says. | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
So are you now prepared to stand up to Donald Trump? | 0:04:59 | 0:05:08 | |
Absolutely, I mean, when I think he's wrong. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
John McCain and I came out very hard against the first travel ban, | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
because I thought it was basically a ban on a person's religion. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
The Russian sanctions, I authored the Russian sanctions. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
I was the primary author of the sanctions against | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
Putin's Russia, and Trump didn't like but we did, | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
but we got 98-2. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
So I think he's bizarre when it comes to Russia, quite frankly. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
Bizarre? | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
Yeah, bizarre feelings about Putin. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:38 | |
I can't understand it, given what Putin has done. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:40 | |
But at the end of the day, Congress has charted its own path | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
on foreign policy. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:45 | |
So the most important relationship that the United States has | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
in the world, that is with the other key nuclear power, Russia, | 0:05:47 | 0:05:50 | |
you are saying you believe the commander-in-chief's behaviour | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
and policy is bizarre? | 0:05:53 | 0:05:54 | |
It's not about his behaviour and policy, as much as, | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
why doesn't he see Putin like we do? | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
I mean, most of us, Republicans and Democrats, | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
believe that Putin did interfere in our election. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
He's trying to destabilise democracy all over the world, | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
and I hope that President Trump seems to be getting the message. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:10 | |
He's kicked Russian diplomats out of consulates in California. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:14 | |
He's beginning to understand that Putin's not his friend. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
But I don't blame President Trump for trying to have a good | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
relationship with adversaries, but it's clear to me | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
that he was trying to excuse behaviour - | 0:06:25 | 0:06:27 | |
Putin's behaviour, in a way that I feel uncomfortable with. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:38 | |
Well, we'll come back to Russia later. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
But just sticking with domestic policy for a little bit longer, | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
if you say, yes, like my friend McCain, I am going to stand up | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
to Trump, it seems to me that US politics is heading for a car crash | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
very quickly. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:52 | |
Because Donald Trump has said, for a start, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
I am going to build that wall with Mexico, and the Congress | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
is going to pay for it, and unless they get quick | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
about paying for it now, I'm going to basically | 0:07:00 | 0:07:03 | |
shut down the government. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:04 | |
Well, I think he said a couple of days ago he took that back. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
We're not going to build a 2,200-mile wall. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
A 2,200-mile wall not necessary. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:11 | |
It would stop the flow of commerce, you would have to take people's | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
property away from them. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:16 | |
There are parts of the border that you don't need a wall, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
other parts you do. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:20 | |
So we are going to secure the border but nobody believes | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
we are going to have a 2,200-mile wall. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:25 | |
We're not. | 0:07:25 | 0:07:26 | |
And nobody believes Mexico is going to pay for it, | 0:07:26 | 0:07:28 | |
because they won't. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:29 | |
It is not just about the wall, though. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
Trump is at loggerheads with Congress about raising the debt | 0:07:32 | 0:07:34 | |
ceiling, it looks like there might be a big argument about the budget. | 0:07:34 | 0:07:38 | |
He is at war with the Republican head of the Senate, Mitch McConnell. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
He is pretty much at war with the Republican leader | 0:07:41 | 0:07:44 | |
in the house, Paul Ryan. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:45 | |
Wherever you look, Donald Trump is treating your party, | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
which is in the majority on Capitol Hill, with contempt. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:50 | |
I think that's probably why he won. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:52 | |
He shows contempt for the system. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:54 | |
Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Lindsey Graham, John McCain, | 0:07:54 | 0:07:56 | |
in the eyes of many, are the system. | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
And you suck it up? | 0:07:58 | 0:08:00 | |
Not suck it up, I understand it. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:08 | |
Again, I'm not going to vote for a 2,200-mile wall that | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
makes no sense. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:12 | |
Are we heading potentially for a shutdown of government? | 0:08:12 | 0:08:14 | |
I think we're headed for what we have been having | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
for years in Congress, the ability to govern | 0:08:17 | 0:08:19 | |
is very much lost. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:20 | |
Here's what I think will happen. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
He should be upset with the Republican Congress. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:24 | |
Didn't we promise for seven years to repeal and replace Obamacare? | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
Now we're in charge, the President says, | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
where's the bill to repeal and replace Obamacare? | 0:08:29 | 0:08:31 | |
I just went all over South Carolina and people are saying, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
we put you there for a reason. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
You got the Senate, you got the White House, | 0:08:36 | 0:08:39 | |
are you telling me that after seven years of "we're going to repeal | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
and replace Obamacare", you can't get it done? | 0:08:42 | 0:08:44 | |
Guess what? | 0:08:44 | 0:08:45 | |
People should be mad at us. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:46 | |
If I may say so... | 0:08:46 | 0:08:48 | |
What a terrible indictment of all of you, the President, | 0:08:48 | 0:08:50 | |
you in the Senate, the Republicans in the House, as well. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:53 | |
You control, as a party, all of the key institutions, | 0:08:54 | 0:08:56 | |
and you are telling me that you can't see any change, | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
that gridlock is still the order of the day. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
No, I think we will have some breakthroughs. | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
The Republicans ran on a platform of repealing and replacing | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
Obamacare, cutting taxes, rebuilding the military, | 0:09:06 | 0:09:08 | |
very specific things. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:09 | |
If we don't deliver, we're going to lose. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:11 | |
So our fates are tied together. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:16 | |
You're trying to say, well, will you stand up to Trump? | 0:09:16 | 0:09:20 | |
What he may not understand is, as I go, he goes. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:22 | |
If we jointly do not repeal and replace Obamacare, | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
if we can't have a tax cut, then he's going to lose, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
and we're all going to lose. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
Let's move onto other matters. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:31 | |
You have made it quite plain that you have no doubt that Russia | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
meddled, interfered in the Presidential campaign? | 0:09:35 | 0:09:36 | |
Zero doubt. Zero doubt. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:38 | |
So Donald Trump is still telling the American people that it is fake | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
news, it is a hoax, it is something being manipulated | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
by the mainstream media. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:45 | |
So here's the thing. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:47 | |
Why do you think Donald Trump still insists | 0:09:47 | 0:09:49 | |
there is no story here? | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
I just think he believes it undercuts his victory. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:53 | |
That, if you say that Russia was involved, | 0:09:53 | 0:09:55 | |
somehow it affects his legitimacy. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
The question is, did he and his team receive help from the Russians? | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
Collusion? Yes, collusion. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:07 | |
I don't know the answer to that, but we will find out. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
And you are determined to find out? | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
Absolutely, because we are a rule of law nation. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:15 | |
And you sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee? | 0:10:15 | 0:10:19 | |
I sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee, I'm chairman | 0:10:19 | 0:10:22 | |
of the subcommittee overseeing this. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:23 | |
I will go wherever the facts take us. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
You appear to believe there is or has been a serious | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
danger of the Trump administration seeking to fire Robert Mueller, | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
the Special Counsel. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:32 | |
I don't know what Trump was thinking. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
I know some press reports were unnerving. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:36 | |
There's no reason to fire Mueller. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:37 | |
If you can find one, let me know. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
But we introduced legislation to make sure that he can't be fired | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
without judicial review. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:44 | |
That, in a sense, is what I'm pointing to. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
You would not have introduced that legislation unless you, | 0:10:46 | 0:10:48 | |
Lindsey Graham, feared there was a serious possibility | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
that this White House was going to try to remove | 0:10:52 | 0:10:57 | |
the special counsel, which appears to be ramping up | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
the investigation into this allegation of collusion? | 0:11:00 | 0:11:01 | |
You have no faith in your President on this? | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
It's not that I don't have faith in him. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
It's about whether or not people have faith in the system. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
I don't like the fact that Russia interfered in our elections. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
I have no evidence of collusion yet between Trump and the Russians | 0:11:14 | 0:11:19 | |
and if there's some to come about, it will come about. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:23 | |
Well, you don't know any more than I do about what Robert Mueller | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
is finding, because he hasn't told us. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:28 | |
But I think it is fair to say... | 0:11:28 | 0:11:30 | |
My job is to make sure he can look and not worry. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
Exactly, and is it not fair to say that, given they have empanelled | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
the grand jury, we understand noe that he's working with prosecutors | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
in New York, as well. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
He is ramping up this investigation. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:43 | |
It seems to be that he is ramping it up and he is taking it serious | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
and it will go where it goes. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:49 | |
And I have no idea where this thing is going to go. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
I do know this - it is important that he be able to do his job | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
without any political interference. | 0:11:57 | 0:11:58 | |
And most Republicans are behind me in that regard. | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
Do you see this as the most ethically challenged administration | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
that you have seen, in your political lifetime? | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
I can't tell you I haven't seen a higher crime or misdemeanour | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
committed by the President. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:12 | |
The people around him are some of the best people in the world. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:16 | |
About business dealings, there's some things with the Trump | 0:12:16 | 0:12:21 | |
family I think Mueller may look at. | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
But all I'll say about the President, | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
when you look at the people he's picked to run this government, | 0:12:28 | 0:12:31 | |
pretty damn good. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:32 | |
You have talked about your confidence in the national security | 0:12:32 | 0:12:35 | |
team. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:36 | |
Does it sit easily with you that his daughter and his son-in-law are key | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
players in the inner, inner, inner circle in the White House? | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
Yeah, it does. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:43 | |
Because I've met them both and I like them and they have a more | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
traditional, centrist view of political issues. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
How about this, Jennifer Rubin, a writer in the Washington Post, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:52 | |
she recently wrote this. | 0:12:52 | 0:12:53 | |
Trump continues to receive money through his businesses from foreign | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
governments, be they in the form of bookings into his hotel | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
or benefits derived from expedited trademarks, and this, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
she writes, is the essence of financial corruption. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
Yeah, what I would say is that Mueller will look at whatever | 0:13:05 | 0:13:09 | |
he needs to look at. | 0:13:09 | 0:13:10 | |
I think the ethics folks are looking at the Trump hotel deal. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
Does that sit easily with you? | 0:13:13 | 0:13:15 | |
Well, I don't know what she's talking about. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:17 | |
I don't know what allegations she is making. | 0:13:17 | 0:13:20 | |
Well, what we know is Donald Trump has not divested of his key assets, | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
including hotels, including a hotel in Washington where world leaders | 0:13:24 | 0:13:30 | |
tend to stay when they are coming to visit the administration. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
Right, I don't think he gets any personal financial benefit. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:36 | |
I don't know. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:37 | |
To me, that is something we have a system to look at. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
Right, well, one could say that was an overlap of domestic | 0:13:40 | 0:13:43 | |
and foreign affairs, given the Russian involvement. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:45 | |
Let's now get to straight out foreign affairs. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
Let's start with North Korea. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:48 | |
How close are we to seeing a war on the Korean peninsula? | 0:13:48 | 0:13:52 | |
That's a good question. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
Let's look at it this way. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:55 | |
That's a really good question and I worry about this a lot. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
How close are we? | 0:13:58 | 0:13:59 | |
Here's what I think you need to understand. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:02 | |
The President's made a decision that's fundamentally different | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
than in the past. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:05 | |
Every President before him has tried sanctions, cajoling. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:07 | |
We sent Dennis Rodman over, I can't believe that didn't work! | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
You know, Madeleine Albright danced with the guy's dad. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:19 | |
We're tough, we're nice, we're tough, we're nice, | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
and they get more bombs and bigger missiles. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:23 | |
I think Trump has made a decision that I'm not going to let this | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
programme mature to the point that they can have a missile to hit | 0:14:27 | 0:14:31 | |
America with, a missile with a nuclear weapon on top. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
So he says that he would use military force to prevent | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
the marriage of those two concepts. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
You make it sound as though there is something clear, | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
coherent, easily understandable about the administration's | 0:14:41 | 0:14:42 | |
Korea policy. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:43 | |
But what we saw in recent days was a Trump tweet saying outright | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
that talking is not the answer to this problem. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
Followed, within hours, with the man that you say | 0:14:49 | 0:14:51 | |
you respect so highly, the Defence Secretary, | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
James Mattis, saying, we are never out of diplomatic solutions. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
So which is it? | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
Sir | 0:14:58 | 0:14:58 | |
I think it is what I just said. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
We haven't reached the end of the diplomatic road. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:03 | |
I don't even think we're reasonably close. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:05 | |
But the road of diplomacy has to be married up with the road | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
of missile development. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:10 | |
So here's what I'm trying to tell you. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
You asked me how close are we? | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
I don't know how close they are to perfecting | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
the technology that would put America | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
in the crosshairs of Kim Jong-un. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:19 | |
So, when does the diplomatic road end? | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
When that marriage is on the brink of happening. | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
But Lindsey Graham's view is that, yes, in the end, | 0:15:25 | 0:15:27 | |
there is on the table the possibility of an American first | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
military strike against North Korea? | 0:15:30 | 0:15:37 | |
Absolutely. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:39 | |
As a matter of fact, I think if something doesn't change, | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
it is inevitable. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:43 | |
Because they seem to be hell-bent on developing technology in defiance | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
of what President Trump said he would allow to happen. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
The thing is, you know that however it works, | 0:15:50 | 0:15:56 | |
hundreds of thousands of civilians are going to, | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
in all likelihood, die as a result of that American strike. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
So here is what I'm trying to say. Do you not... | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
It seems like you don't care that much? | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
Because they're not going to die in America? | 0:16:06 | 0:16:08 | |
You know what I'm going to quote. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:10 | |
You said not so long ago that if there is going to be a war | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
to stop him, Kim Jong-un, it will be over there. | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
If thousands die, they're going to die over there, | 0:16:17 | 0:16:20 | |
they're not going to die here. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
The President has told that to my face. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
You and the President don't care that much? | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
I think that is pretty unfair. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:29 | |
If you left it up to me, I wouldn't be at war with anybody. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:38 | |
I have got a real problem with a man who threatens my country | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
with a nuclear weapon attack. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:43 | |
I have got a real problem with that. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:45 | |
I have got a problem with what he does to his own people. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
But I am not trying to change the regime. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
I'm not trying to unify the peninsula. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:53 | |
Neither is the President. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
We're not out for regime change, we're not out | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
to reunify the peninsula. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:00 | |
We're out to stop a threat to the American homeland | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
that is unacceptable. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:03 | |
But you can imagine a first strike war, a US first strike war | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
in which hundreds of thousands of Korean civilians on both sides | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
of the border die and it would be in America's interests? | 0:17:10 | 0:17:23 | |
It would be my last resort, but please understand | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
what I am saying. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:27 | |
I care a lot about anybody dying anywhere. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
But the duty of the American President is to protect America. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
And our allies. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:33 | |
We have troops in Korea there to defend Korea | 0:17:33 | 0:17:35 | |
and to defend our interest. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
I am 100% certain that if Kim Jong-un continues to develop | 0:17:37 | 0:17:40 | |
missile technology that can hit America, if diplomacy fails | 0:17:40 | 0:17:42 | |
to stop him, there will be an attack by the United States | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
against his weapon systems. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:46 | |
I am assuming the worst, I am assuming we drop one bomb | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
and he fires at South Korea and maybe Japan. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
Let me tell you how the war ends. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
It ends with his utter destruction. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:56 | |
Thousands of people could be killed or maimed. | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
There is a lot at stake here. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
And let me ask you, why would the world, | 0:18:01 | 0:18:03 | |
given his track record, the North Korean leader, | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
allow him to get a hydrogen bomb with a missile to deliver it | 0:18:05 | 0:18:09 | |
anywhere in the world? | 0:18:09 | 0:18:10 | |
Why would we do that? | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
Before we end, a quick tour of other key foreign policy issues. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:16 | |
That's a pretty good one there! | 0:18:16 | 0:18:17 | |
That's important and that's why we have spent some time on it, | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
but on other issues, whether it be Trump's policy | 0:18:20 | 0:18:26 | |
on Nato, where he talked about obsolescence | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
but he doesn't do that any more. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
Whether it be on Russia, where Trump clearly wanted to warm | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
up relations with Putin but Congress imposed new sanctions and Trump very | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
reluctantly had to sign the bill. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
One can look across the piece and see that Donald Trump's | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
instincts in many foreign policy areas are running up against, | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
one could put it, the pragmatic establishment in Washington, DC. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:54 | |
Is Trump losing? | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
I think reality is taking over. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
When you are a candidate you can say anything, | 0:18:58 | 0:19:03 | |
like I'm going to build a wall and Mexico will pay for it. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
When you're the President in a democratic society, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:09 | |
it's not so easy to do. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:11 | |
When you're a candidate, it's the longest war in history, | 0:19:11 | 0:19:13 | |
I'm going to pull out of Afghanistan. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:15 | |
And then the generals tell you what will happen | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
if you do pull out. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:19 | |
So the reason you should be somewhat optimistic about President Trump | 0:19:19 | 0:19:22 | |
is he has shown the ability to adjust policy. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
He took the campaign rhetoric against Afghanistan and he ran hard | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
against getting out and I hit him hard. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
And now he has adjusted his policies in a reasonable way. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
I think he has taken the right position on North Korea. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
When Steve Bannon, the noted "American nationalist", | 0:19:36 | 0:19:38 | |
who was behind many of the policy positions during the campaign that | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
you have just outlined, when he left the White House a short | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
time ago, did you dance a little jig of delight? | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
I didn't dance a jig of delight but I think his view of the world | 0:19:47 | 0:19:51 | |
is very dangerous and let me tell you about his views, | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
it's a false sense of security. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:56 | |
Leave them alone, they'll leave you alone. | 0:19:56 | 0:19:58 | |
America first. | 0:19:58 | 0:19:59 | |
Remember that statement from the '20s and '30s? | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
Europe - that's your war. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:02 | |
We are not going to be drawn into European wars. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
As Hitler marches through Europe and this little island called | 0:20:05 | 0:20:08 | |
Britain is the last line of defence, the day before Pearl Harbor | 0:20:08 | 0:20:13 | |
the polling in America was 70% stay out. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:18 | |
So this whole isolationist, America first, leave the world | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
alone, I reject that completely. | 0:20:20 | 0:20:25 | |
Yes, but Senator Graham, going back to the beginning | 0:20:25 | 0:20:27 | |
of our conversation, the problem you've got is that many | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
Europeans believe that is what they see in America today. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
You saw Angela Merkel a few months ago after a G7 meeting say | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
to her people and to Europe, we cannot any more rely | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
on traditional partners. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
It was clear she meant the United States and perhaps | 0:20:43 | 0:20:46 | |
Britain as well. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:47 | |
And she said, we have to accept our fate in Europe | 0:20:47 | 0:20:50 | |
is in our hands. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:51 | |
A clear indication there is a bigger rift than we have seen for a very | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
long time between Merkel, the rest of continental Europe | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
and the United States. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:00 | |
And if it grows it could be dangerous. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
Trump's inaugural speech came out of the '30s. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
It was very dark. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:07 | |
It scared me, quite frankly. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:09 | |
His speech in Poland about how we're all in it together, | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
we have to defend our values against those who would destroy | 0:21:12 | 0:21:15 | |
them, the benefits of Nato. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
Of all the organisations in the history of man, | 0:21:18 | 0:21:20 | |
Nato has stood the test of time, I am an internationalist, | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
I hope the American union survives, I hope we can | 0:21:23 | 0:21:31 | |
I hope the European union survives, I hope we can | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
get more contributions... | 0:21:34 | 0:21:34 | |
I think what Trump is trying to do is say, you know, | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
to our European allies, you're not carrying your fair share | 0:21:38 | 0:21:40 | |
when it comes to defence spending, and they're not. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
That's different than saying the alliance has not been official. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
A final thought for you, it goes back to a couple of things | 0:21:45 | 0:21:49 | |
we have talked about. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:50 | |
This unfolding investigation into the Russian meddling | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
in the election and potential alleged collusion involving | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
the Trump campaign. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:55 | |
That could be enormously damaging and serious | 0:21:55 | 0:21:57 | |
for the President himself. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:01 | |
The other reality is that his relationship with some of the key | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
players in your own party on Capitol Hill is pretty poisonous. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
Those two things combined have led people to debate whether this | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
President is going to see through his four-year term. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:12 | |
Do you think he will? | 0:22:12 | 0:22:17 | |
Yeah. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:20 | |
I don't know what the investigation holds. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:22 | |
I have seen nothing to the higher crime or misdemeanour yet. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:26 | |
We'll see what happens. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
Here's what I would tell my European friends. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
A judge, with the stroke of a pen, shut down the travel ban. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:35 | |
And that held. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:37 | |
Congress, over the President's objections, said we're | 0:22:37 | 0:22:38 | |
going to punish Russia for interfering in our elections. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
And we did. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
There will be times when we work with him, there will be times | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
when we say, Mr President, what you said about Charlottesville | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
was fundamentally wrong. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:51 | |
That's just the way the game is going to be and it has been that | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
way for quite a long time in America. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
I want to leave you with a sense of optimism. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
The President has adjusted policies when it made sense, | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
the people around him are the best I have seen | 0:23:03 | 0:23:05 | |
on the national security front. | 0:23:05 | 0:23:07 | |
They have a view of the world that I think is healthy | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
for the President to hear. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
Mr Bannon's view is shared by many Americans. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:14 | |
I just think, in the end, America is destined to lead the world. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
When we're not around, things usually go bad. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
Now, here's the goal. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:23 | |
For me to understand what got him elected and for him | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
to understand my concerns about his agenda. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:30 | |
One example. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
He cut the State Department's budget by 29% and increased | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
the military dramatically. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
I told him, Mr President, there is no more hawkish guy | 0:23:38 | 0:23:40 | |
on Capitol Hill than Lindsey Graham. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:42 | |
I'm glad you increase the military budget but if you take diplomacy | 0:23:43 | 0:23:47 | |
and developmental aid and foreign assistance off | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
the table, soft power. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:52 | |
We can't defend America through military might alone. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
We have to build up the lives of others to beat the terrorists, | 0:23:55 | 0:23:59 | |
not just kill terrorists. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:01 | |
And that's the conflict I have with him. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
Does he understand the limits of military power? | 0:24:03 | 0:24:05 | |
Does he understand the value of soft power? | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
The power of building up people's economies. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:11 | |
A schoolhouse for a poor young girl would do more damage to the Taliban | 0:24:11 | 0:24:15 | |
than any bomb you can drop on their head. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:17 | |
We have to end there. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:18 | |
Senator Lindsay Graham, thank you for being on HARDtalk. | 0:24:19 | 0:24:21 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:23 | |
After a weekend of two halves, this week's weather takes us | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
on a little bit of a journey that things are a little bit quieter | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
for this time of the week. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:55 | |
I will start with a few images from Sunday's weather. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 |