Lindsey Graham - US Senator HARDtalk


Lindsey Graham - US Senator

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Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk,

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from Lake Como in Italy.

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The venue for the annual Ambrosetti Forum on international affairs.

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And one topic dominates discussion here.

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The impact of the Trump presidency on the United States and the world.

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My guest is the US Republican Senator Lindsey Graham,

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himself once a candidate for the White House,

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and now a consistent thorn in the side

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of President Trump.

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So what does Donald Trump mean for traditional notions

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of American leadership?

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Senator Lindsey Graham, welcome.

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Thank you very much.

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You are at this significant gathering of international

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politicians.

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You have a chance to take the temperature,

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the mood, when it comes to international perceptions

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of President Trump today.

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How would you characterise them?

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I think there's a lot of anxiety in Europe about President Trump.

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I don't think that affects him much at home.

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There was a lot of anxiety about President Reagan,

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a lot of adulation for President Trump.

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So I'm not so sure that's going to affect domestic politics much.

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But people are uncertain, people are unsure.

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Who is this guy, what does he think, where is he taking the world?

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And I can understand that anxiety.

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But anxious for all sorts of reasons, not least the very

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significant figures in the United States,

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like the former director of national intelligence,

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James Clapper, who have said they have

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very grave doubts about Trump's fitness for office.

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He talked about John's words being scary and disturbing.

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Well, I'm not worried about - he's entitled to his opinion.

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But look at the people around President Trump.

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I have not seen a better national security team

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in my political lifetime.

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General Mattis is an excellent Secretary of Defence,

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General Kelly, the chief of staff, General McMaster, Dan Coats,

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the director of national intelligence.

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So he has surrounded himself with very quality people

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we have a traditional view of the world, from a Republican

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point of view, and I think we're going to be fine.

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Well, it surprises me you say that, in a way, because if one looks

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at your own thoughts about Donald Trump, you have,

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over time, expressed your own grave reservations about him.

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Every day!

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About his abilities as Commander-in-Chief?

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During the campaign, I thought some of the things

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he was saying I thought were incendiary and unhelpful

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but now he is Commander-in-Chief and I would say this.

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The Muslim ban was a shaky start.

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The courts rejected his efforts to restrict people coming

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into America, because it appeared to be a ban on a religion,

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and you can't do that in the United States.

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His decision in Afghanistan was a very good decision,

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well thought out, and basically, completely different

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than what he campaigned on.

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Well, we will get to that, because I do want to talk

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national security issues with you, and US foreign policy.

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But first I want to dig away at some of the most controversial elements

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of the Trump presidency.

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And there is no doubt that his response to the violence

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in Charlottesville, and that show of strength, to many people

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a extremely disturbing show of strength, by neo-Nazis and white

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supremacists in Virginia.

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Donald Trump's reaction to that, and the violence that we saw,

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was to talk about blame on many sides.

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Yeah.

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You condemned that.

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Yeah, I mean, it was an opportunity missed.

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He should have come down hard on neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

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You know, the left has a violent element to it,

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but it was a moment for him to basically reset some

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of the things he said in the campaign.

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But isn't that the point,

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that he, right now, looks like a President who is polarising

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the United States in a way that we have not seen before?

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I would say the country's been polarised for quite a while,

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just like your country.

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Brexit is the result of disenchantment with globalisation.

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There would be no Donald Trump if Obama had brought us together.

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So the bottom line is, there is a divide.

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But here's the good news.

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Every corner of the political spectrum pushed back

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against President Trump's statements.

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It is incumbent upon me and others to respect his victory,

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but also to push back when we have to.

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Well, I find that interesting, the way you couch that.

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But let's be honest.

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At one point you called him a jackass.

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More recently you've said, I like the guy, and he has

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a unique personality.

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So let's cut to the chase here.

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John McCain, your good friend, says it is time for Republicans

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on Capitol Hill to stand up to Donald Trump.

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We are not his subordinates, McCain says.

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So are you now prepared to stand up to Donald Trump?

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Absolutely, I mean, when I think he's wrong.

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John McCain and I came out very hard against the first travel ban,

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because I thought it was basically a ban on a person's religion.

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The Russian sanctions, I authored the Russian sanctions.

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I was the primary author of the sanctions against

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Putin's Russia, and Trump didn't like but we did,

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but we got 98-2.

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So I think he's bizarre when it comes to Russia, quite frankly.

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Bizarre?

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Yeah, bizarre feelings about Putin.

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I can't understand it, given what Putin has done.

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But at the end of the day, Congress has charted its own path

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on foreign policy.

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So the most important relationship that the United States has

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in the world, that is with the other key nuclear power, Russia,

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you are saying you believe the commander-in-chief's behaviour

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and policy is bizarre?

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It's not about his behaviour and policy, as much as,

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why doesn't he see Putin like we do?

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I mean, most of us, Republicans and Democrats,

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believe that Putin did interfere in our election.

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He's trying to destabilise democracy all over the world,

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and I hope that President Trump seems to be getting the message.

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He's kicked Russian diplomats out of consulates in California.

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He's beginning to understand that Putin's not his friend.

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But I don't blame President Trump for trying to have a good

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relationship with adversaries, but it's clear to me

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that he was trying to excuse behaviour -

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Putin's behaviour, in a way that I feel uncomfortable with.

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Well, we'll come back to Russia later.

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But just sticking with domestic policy for a little bit longer,

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if you say, yes, like my friend McCain, I am going to stand up

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to Trump, it seems to me that US politics is heading for a car crash

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very quickly.

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Because Donald Trump has said, for a start,

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I am going to build that wall with Mexico, and the Congress

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is going to pay for it, and unless they get quick

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about paying for it now, I'm going to basically

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shut down the government.

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Well, I think he said a couple of days ago he took that back.

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We're not going to build a 2,200-mile wall.

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A 2,200-mile wall not necessary.

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It would stop the flow of commerce, you would have to take people's

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property away from them.

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There are parts of the border that you don't need a wall,

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other parts you do.

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So we are going to secure the border but nobody believes

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we are going to have a 2,200-mile wall.

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We're not.

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And nobody believes Mexico is going to pay for it,

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because they won't.

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It is not just about the wall, though.

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Trump is at loggerheads with Congress about raising the debt

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ceiling, it looks like there might be a big argument about the budget.

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He is at war with the Republican head of the Senate, Mitch McConnell.

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He is pretty much at war with the Republican leader

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in the house, Paul Ryan.

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Wherever you look, Donald Trump is treating your party,

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which is in the majority on Capitol Hill, with contempt.

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I think that's probably why he won.

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He shows contempt for the system.

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Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Lindsey Graham, John McCain,

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in the eyes of many, are the system.

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And you suck it up?

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Not suck it up, I understand it.

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Again, I'm not going to vote for a 2,200-mile wall that

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makes no sense.

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Are we heading potentially for a shutdown of government?

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I think we're headed for what we have been having

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for years in Congress, the ability to govern

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is very much lost.

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Here's what I think will happen.

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He should be upset with the Republican Congress.

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Didn't we promise for seven years to repeal and replace Obamacare?

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Now we're in charge, the President says,

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where's the bill to repeal and replace Obamacare?

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I just went all over South Carolina and people are saying,

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we put you there for a reason.

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You got the Senate, you got the White House,

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are you telling me that after seven years of "we're going to repeal

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and replace Obamacare", you can't get it done?

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Guess what?

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People should be mad at us.

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If I may say so...

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What a terrible indictment of all of you, the President,

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you in the Senate, the Republicans in the House, as well.

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You control, as a party, all of the key institutions,

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and you are telling me that you can't see any change,

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that gridlock is still the order of the day.

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No, I think we will have some breakthroughs.

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The Republicans ran on a platform of repealing and replacing

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Obamacare, cutting taxes, rebuilding the military,

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very specific things.

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If we don't deliver, we're going to lose.

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So our fates are tied together.

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You're trying to say, well, will you stand up to Trump?

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What he may not understand is, as I go, he goes.

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If we jointly do not repeal and replace Obamacare,

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if we can't have a tax cut, then he's going to lose,

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and we're all going to lose.

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Let's move onto other matters.

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You have made it quite plain that you have no doubt that Russia

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meddled, interfered in the Presidential campaign?

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Zero doubt. Zero doubt.

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So Donald Trump is still telling the American people that it is fake

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news, it is a hoax, it is something being manipulated

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by the mainstream media.

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So here's the thing.

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Why do you think Donald Trump still insists

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there is no story here?

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I just think he believes it undercuts his victory.

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That, if you say that Russia was involved,

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somehow it affects his legitimacy.

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The question is, did he and his team receive help from the Russians?

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Collusion? Yes, collusion.

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I don't know the answer to that, but we will find out.

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And you are determined to find out?

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Absolutely, because we are a rule of law nation.

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And you sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee?

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I sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee, I'm chairman

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of the subcommittee overseeing this.

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I will go wherever the facts take us.

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You appear to believe there is or has been a serious

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danger of the Trump administration seeking to fire Robert Mueller,

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the Special Counsel.

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I don't know what Trump was thinking.

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I know some press reports were unnerving.

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There's no reason to fire Mueller.

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If you can find one, let me know.

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But we introduced legislation to make sure that he can't be fired

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without judicial review.

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That, in a sense, is what I'm pointing to.

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You would not have introduced that legislation unless you,

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Lindsey Graham, feared there was a serious possibility

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that this White House was going to try to remove

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the special counsel, which appears to be ramping up

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the investigation into this allegation of collusion?

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You have no faith in your President on this?

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It's not that I don't have faith in him.

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It's about whether or not people have faith in the system.

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I don't like the fact that Russia interfered in our elections.

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I have no evidence of collusion yet between Trump and the Russians

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and if there's some to come about, it will come about.

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Well, you don't know any more than I do about what Robert Mueller

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is finding, because he hasn't told us.

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But I think it is fair to say...

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My job is to make sure he can look and not worry.

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Exactly, and is it not fair to say that, given they have empanelled

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the grand jury, we understand noe that he's working with prosecutors

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in New York, as well.

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He is ramping up this investigation.

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It seems to be that he is ramping it up and he is taking it serious

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and it will go where it goes.

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And I have no idea where this thing is going to go.

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I do know this - it is important that he be able to do his job

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without any political interference.

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And most Republicans are behind me in that regard.

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Do you see this as the most ethically challenged administration

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that you have seen, in your political lifetime?

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I can't tell you I haven't seen a higher crime or misdemeanour

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committed by the President.

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The people around him are some of the best people in the world.

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About business dealings, there's some things with the Trump

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family I think Mueller may look at.

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But all I'll say about the President,

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when you look at the people he's picked to run this government,

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pretty damn good.

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You have talked about your confidence in the national security

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team.

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Does it sit easily with you that his daughter and his son-in-law are key

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players in the inner, inner, inner circle in the White House?

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Yeah, it does.

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Because I've met them both and I like them and they have a more

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traditional, centrist view of political issues.

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How about this, Jennifer Rubin, a writer in the Washington Post,

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she recently wrote this.

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Trump continues to receive money through his businesses from foreign

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governments, be they in the form of bookings into his hotel

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or benefits derived from expedited trademarks, and this,

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she writes, is the essence of financial corruption.

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Yeah, what I would say is that Mueller will look at whatever

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he needs to look at.

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I think the ethics folks are looking at the Trump hotel deal.

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Does that sit easily with you?

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Well, I don't know what she's talking about.

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I don't know what allegations she is making.

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Well, what we know is Donald Trump has not divested of his key assets,

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including hotels, including a hotel in Washington where world leaders

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tend to stay when they are coming to visit the administration.

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Right, I don't think he gets any personal financial benefit.

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I don't know.

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To me, that is something we have a system to look at.

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Right, well, one could say that was an overlap of domestic

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and foreign affairs, given the Russian involvement.

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Let's now get to straight out foreign affairs.

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Let's start with North Korea.

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How close are we to seeing a war on the Korean peninsula?

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That's a good question.

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Let's look at it this way.

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That's a really good question and I worry about this a lot.

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How close are we?

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Here's what I think you need to understand.

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The President's made a decision that's fundamentally different

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than in the past.

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Every President before him has tried sanctions, cajoling.

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We sent Dennis Rodman over, I can't believe that didn't work!

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You know, Madeleine Albright danced with the guy's dad.

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We're tough, we're nice, we're tough, we're nice,

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and they get more bombs and bigger missiles.

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I think Trump has made a decision that I'm not going to let this

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programme mature to the point that they can have a missile to hit

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America with, a missile with a nuclear weapon on top.

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So he says that he would use military force to prevent

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the marriage of those two concepts.

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You make it sound as though there is something clear,

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coherent, easily understandable about the administration's

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Korea policy.

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But what we saw in recent days was a Trump tweet saying outright

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that talking is not the answer to this problem.

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Followed, within hours, with the man that you say

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you respect so highly, the Defence Secretary,

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James Mattis, saying, we are never out of diplomatic solutions.

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So which is it?

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Sir

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I think it is what I just said.

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We haven't reached the end of the diplomatic road.

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I don't even think we're reasonably close.

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But the road of diplomacy has to be married up with the road

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of missile development.

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So here's what I'm trying to tell you.

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You asked me how close are we?

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I don't know how close they are to perfecting

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the technology that would put America

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in the crosshairs of Kim Jong-un.

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So, when does the diplomatic road end?

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When that marriage is on the brink of happening.

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But Lindsey Graham's view is that, yes, in the end,

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there is on the table the possibility of an American first

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military strike against North Korea?

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Absolutely.

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As a matter of fact, I think if something doesn't change,

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it is inevitable.

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Because they seem to be hell-bent on developing technology in defiance

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of what President Trump said he would allow to happen.

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The thing is, you know that however it works,

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hundreds of thousands of civilians are going to,

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in all likelihood, die as a result of that American strike.

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So here is what I'm trying to say. Do you not...

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It seems like you don't care that much?

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Because they're not going to die in America?

0:16:060:16:08

You know what I'm going to quote.

0:16:090:16:10

You said not so long ago that if there is going to be a war

0:16:100:16:14

to stop him, Kim Jong-un, it will be over there.

0:16:140:16:17

If thousands die, they're going to die over there,

0:16:170:16:20

they're not going to die here.

0:16:200:16:22

The President has told that to my face.

0:16:220:16:25

You and the President don't care that much?

0:16:250:16:27

I think that is pretty unfair.

0:16:270:16:29

If you left it up to me, I wouldn't be at war with anybody.

0:16:290:16:38

I have got a real problem with a man who threatens my country

0:16:380:16:42

with a nuclear weapon attack.

0:16:420:16:43

I have got a real problem with that.

0:16:430:16:45

I have got a problem with what he does to his own people.

0:16:450:16:49

But I am not trying to change the regime.

0:16:490:16:52

I'm not trying to unify the peninsula.

0:16:520:16:53

Neither is the President.

0:16:530:16:56

We're not out for regime change, we're not out

0:16:560:16:59

to reunify the peninsula.

0:16:590:17:00

We're out to stop a threat to the American homeland

0:17:000:17:02

that is unacceptable.

0:17:020:17:03

But you can imagine a first strike war, a US first strike war

0:17:030:17:07

in which hundreds of thousands of Korean civilians on both sides

0:17:070:17:10

of the border die and it would be in America's interests?

0:17:100:17:23

It would be my last resort, but please understand

0:17:230:17:26

what I am saying.

0:17:260:17:27

I care a lot about anybody dying anywhere.

0:17:270:17:29

But the duty of the American President is to protect America.

0:17:290:17:32

And our allies.

0:17:320:17:33

We have troops in Korea there to defend Korea

0:17:330:17:35

and to defend our interest.

0:17:350:17:37

I am 100% certain that if Kim Jong-un continues to develop

0:17:370:17:40

missile technology that can hit America, if diplomacy fails

0:17:400:17:42

to stop him, there will be an attack by the United States

0:17:420:17:45

against his weapon systems.

0:17:450:17:46

I am assuming the worst, I am assuming we drop one bomb

0:17:460:17:50

and he fires at South Korea and maybe Japan.

0:17:500:17:52

Let me tell you how the war ends.

0:17:520:17:54

It ends with his utter destruction.

0:17:540:17:56

Thousands of people could be killed or maimed.

0:17:560:17:58

There is a lot at stake here.

0:17:590:18:01

And let me ask you, why would the world,

0:18:010:18:03

given his track record, the North Korean leader,

0:18:030:18:05

allow him to get a hydrogen bomb with a missile to deliver it

0:18:050:18:09

anywhere in the world?

0:18:090:18:10

Why would we do that?

0:18:100:18:12

Before we end, a quick tour of other key foreign policy issues.

0:18:120:18:16

That's a pretty good one there!

0:18:160:18:17

That's important and that's why we have spent some time on it,

0:18:170:18:20

but on other issues, whether it be Trump's policy

0:18:200:18:26

on Nato, where he talked about obsolescence

0:18:260:18:28

but he doesn't do that any more.

0:18:280:18:30

Whether it be on Russia, where Trump clearly wanted to warm

0:18:300:18:33

up relations with Putin but Congress imposed new sanctions and Trump very

0:18:330:18:36

reluctantly had to sign the bill.

0:18:360:18:38

One can look across the piece and see that Donald Trump's

0:18:380:18:41

instincts in many foreign policy areas are running up against,

0:18:410:18:44

one could put it, the pragmatic establishment in Washington, DC.

0:18:440:18:54

Is Trump losing?

0:18:540:18:56

I think reality is taking over.

0:18:560:18:58

When you are a candidate you can say anything,

0:18:580:19:03

like I'm going to build a wall and Mexico will pay for it.

0:19:030:19:07

When you're the President in a democratic society,

0:19:070:19:09

it's not so easy to do.

0:19:090:19:11

When you're a candidate, it's the longest war in history,

0:19:110:19:13

I'm going to pull out of Afghanistan.

0:19:130:19:15

And then the generals tell you what will happen

0:19:150:19:18

if you do pull out.

0:19:180:19:19

So the reason you should be somewhat optimistic about President Trump

0:19:190:19:22

is he has shown the ability to adjust policy.

0:19:220:19:25

He took the campaign rhetoric against Afghanistan and he ran hard

0:19:250:19:28

against getting out and I hit him hard.

0:19:280:19:30

And now he has adjusted his policies in a reasonable way.

0:19:300:19:33

I think he has taken the right position on North Korea.

0:19:330:19:36

When Steve Bannon, the noted "American nationalist",

0:19:360:19:38

who was behind many of the policy positions during the campaign that

0:19:380:19:41

you have just outlined, when he left the White House a short

0:19:410:19:45

time ago, did you dance a little jig of delight?

0:19:450:19:47

I didn't dance a jig of delight but I think his view of the world

0:19:470:19:51

is very dangerous and let me tell you about his views,

0:19:510:19:54

it's a false sense of security.

0:19:540:19:56

Leave them alone, they'll leave you alone.

0:19:560:19:58

America first.

0:19:580:19:59

Remember that statement from the '20s and '30s?

0:19:590:20:01

Europe - that's your war.

0:20:010:20:02

We are not going to be drawn into European wars.

0:20:030:20:05

As Hitler marches through Europe and this little island called

0:20:050:20:08

Britain is the last line of defence, the day before Pearl Harbor

0:20:080:20:13

the polling in America was 70% stay out.

0:20:130:20:18

So this whole isolationist, America first, leave the world

0:20:180:20:20

alone, I reject that completely.

0:20:200:20:25

Yes, but Senator Graham, going back to the beginning

0:20:250:20:27

of our conversation, the problem you've got is that many

0:20:270:20:30

Europeans believe that is what they see in America today.

0:20:300:20:32

You saw Angela Merkel a few months ago after a G7 meeting say

0:20:320:20:36

to her people and to Europe, we cannot any more rely

0:20:360:20:40

on traditional partners.

0:20:400:20:43

It was clear she meant the United States and perhaps

0:20:430:20:46

Britain as well.

0:20:460:20:47

And she said, we have to accept our fate in Europe

0:20:470:20:50

is in our hands.

0:20:500:20:51

A clear indication there is a bigger rift than we have seen for a very

0:20:510:20:55

long time between Merkel, the rest of continental Europe

0:20:550:20:58

and the United States.

0:20:580:21:00

And if it grows it could be dangerous.

0:21:000:21:02

Trump's inaugural speech came out of the '30s.

0:21:020:21:05

It was very dark.

0:21:050:21:07

It scared me, quite frankly.

0:21:070:21:09

His speech in Poland about how we're all in it together,

0:21:090:21:12

we have to defend our values against those who would destroy

0:21:120:21:15

them, the benefits of Nato.

0:21:150:21:18

Of all the organisations in the history of man,

0:21:180:21:20

Nato has stood the test of time, I am an internationalist,

0:21:200:21:23

I hope the American union survives, I hope we can

0:21:230:21:31

I hope the European union survives, I hope we can

0:21:310:21:34

get more contributions...

0:21:340:21:34

I think what Trump is trying to do is say, you know,

0:21:340:21:38

to our European allies, you're not carrying your fair share

0:21:380:21:40

when it comes to defence spending, and they're not.

0:21:400:21:43

That's different than saying the alliance has not been official.

0:21:430:21:45

A final thought for you, it goes back to a couple of things

0:21:450:21:49

we have talked about.

0:21:490:21:50

This unfolding investigation into the Russian meddling

0:21:500:21:52

in the election and potential alleged collusion involving

0:21:520:21:54

the Trump campaign.

0:21:540:21:55

That could be enormously damaging and serious

0:21:550:21:57

for the President himself.

0:21:570:22:01

The other reality is that his relationship with some of the key

0:22:010:22:04

players in your own party on Capitol Hill is pretty poisonous.

0:22:040:22:07

Those two things combined have led people to debate whether this

0:22:070:22:10

President is going to see through his four-year term.

0:22:100:22:12

Do you think he will?

0:22:120:22:17

Yeah.

0:22:180:22:20

I don't know what the investigation holds.

0:22:200:22:22

I have seen nothing to the higher crime or misdemeanour yet.

0:22:220:22:26

We'll see what happens.

0:22:260:22:28

Here's what I would tell my European friends.

0:22:280:22:30

A judge, with the stroke of a pen, shut down the travel ban.

0:22:300:22:35

And that held.

0:22:350:22:37

Congress, over the President's objections, said we're

0:22:370:22:38

going to punish Russia for interfering in our elections.

0:22:380:22:41

And we did.

0:22:410:22:44

There will be times when we work with him, there will be times

0:22:440:22:47

when we say, Mr President, what you said about Charlottesville

0:22:470:22:50

was fundamentally wrong.

0:22:500:22:51

That's just the way the game is going to be and it has been that

0:22:510:22:55

way for quite a long time in America.

0:22:550:22:58

I want to leave you with a sense of optimism.

0:22:580:23:00

The President has adjusted policies when it made sense,

0:23:000:23:03

the people around him are the best I have seen

0:23:030:23:05

on the national security front.

0:23:050:23:07

They have a view of the world that I think is healthy

0:23:070:23:10

for the President to hear.

0:23:100:23:12

Mr Bannon's view is shared by many Americans.

0:23:120:23:14

I just think, in the end, America is destined to lead the world.

0:23:140:23:18

When we're not around, things usually go bad.

0:23:180:23:21

Now, here's the goal.

0:23:210:23:23

For me to understand what got him elected and for him

0:23:230:23:26

to understand my concerns about his agenda.

0:23:260:23:30

One example.

0:23:300:23:32

He cut the State Department's budget by 29% and increased

0:23:320:23:35

the military dramatically.

0:23:350:23:38

I told him, Mr President, there is no more hawkish guy

0:23:380:23:40

on Capitol Hill than Lindsey Graham.

0:23:410:23:42

I'm glad you increase the military budget but if you take diplomacy

0:23:430:23:47

and developmental aid and foreign assistance off

0:23:470:23:50

the table, soft power.

0:23:500:23:52

We can't defend America through military might alone.

0:23:520:23:55

We have to build up the lives of others to beat the terrorists,

0:23:550:23:59

not just kill terrorists.

0:23:590:24:01

And that's the conflict I have with him.

0:24:010:24:03

Does he understand the limits of military power?

0:24:030:24:05

Does he understand the value of soft power?

0:24:050:24:08

The power of building up people's economies.

0:24:080:24:11

A schoolhouse for a poor young girl would do more damage to the Taliban

0:24:110:24:15

than any bomb you can drop on their head.

0:24:150:24:17

We have to end there.

0:24:170:24:18

Senator Lindsay Graham, thank you for being on HARDtalk.

0:24:190:24:21

Thank you very much.

0:24:210:24:23

After a weekend of two halves, this week's weather takes us

0:24:470:24:50

on a little bit of a journey that things are a little bit quieter

0:24:500:24:54

for this time of the week.

0:24:540:24:55

I will start with a few images from Sunday's weather.

0:24:550:24:58

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