Dan Brown - Author HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to hardtop, I am Stephen Sackur, my guest today is one of the

biggest selling fiction writers of all time. Dan Brown. His 2003 novel

The Da Vinci Code sparked outrage in the Vatican, he's just published

another epic tale, this time about man's quest for the origins of life.

Is there still a public appetite for Dan Brown's high-fibre blockbusters?

Dan Brown, welcome to hardtop. Usually the phrase which follows

your name is best author but in reviews of your latest novel,

Origin, the new phrase for you, and novelist of ideas. I like that. I

have heard many things but I like that. I would did it and thought I

had not heard about it but it is sort of what you are about. I love

to write about the grey area between right and wrong, big ethical

questions, will God survive science is what I tackled in Origin. In some

ways it would seem hard to package that into a genre that maybe you

don't like this word but people would regard as thriller. I love the

word. I write books I want to read. Thrillers are fun to read but I'll

select a learned so what I try to do and it's an intentional thing is

create a book which is fun to read but that you also learn something

along the way. Watchword boards and entertainment are learning? They go

hand-in-hand, they had to be intertwined or else the style does

not work. It either reads like a travel journal or a empty thriller

and I want to create something that tastes like ice cream but you're

getting vegetables. LAUGHTER Most kids would say that their mum

and dad forced them to eat too many vegetables. Do you ever think you

are putting too much into it, you are just trying to be too didactic,

making it too dense? All the time and that is where editing comes in.

For every page in Origin I wrote there were ten which fell to the

floor. Let's think of the substance the balance, when it comes to human

beings trying to explain where we have come from and what life is, the

balance between religious explanation and the scientific

explanation. You are struggling with this central idea that maybe science

has replaced God. Historically science has. If you look at the

agents they had a whole pantheon of gods to explain everything they did

not understand from rising tides to love. When the tides would rise it

used to be per side and then science came along and said it was more to

do with the moon and gravity and Poseidon fell. Are we naive enough

to think history will not repeat itself? That the gods of today will

survive? Historically they will not. I right thinking this is personal?

Your background is interesting in that your family life involved a

mother who was quite religious. Involved with her church. And the

father who was a rationalist maths teacher. I grew up with one foot in

each world. I was very comfortable in this existence up until I was

about nine years old, I learned about Adam and Eve De Angelis is and

I went to the Boston Museum of science and found out about

evolution. I went to my priest and said which story is true? This man

said nice boys don't ask that question and that was the moment

from the that I realised I was going to be asking a lot of questions. Is

that the moment you say to yourself now, that that began your journey

away from religion? Absolutely. I moved toward the solid foundations

of science. I found the further I went in science the mushy Legrand

started to get in terms of concrete science. His becomes metaphysics,

numbers become imaginary, it makes and Bury a circle into philosophy.

Are you anti-religious? No, it does a lot of good in the world. That

moment with the priest, he made you feel uncomfortable, he said nice

boys don't ask that question, surely the extension of that is that

religion became something that made you feel uncomfortable? That is

absolutely true, what I became uncomfortable with is not religion

but the banner of religion being waved as some kind of immunity from

having to endure rational scrutiny. Don't tell me I cannot ask a

question, religion is not doing any favours to the young people today by

seeing to participate you need to turn off the rational part of your

brain. I will just add the story of Adam and Eve I can now read as a

beautiful morale detail, as a fable, an important part of understanding

where we came from. But it's amazing to me than in year 2017 we in my

country have congressmen who will stand up and say the earth is 6000

years old. That the fossil record was put there to test our faith.

This is where the danger lies. It's inevitable that people when they

listen to this conversation we are having our mindful that you are Dan

Brown of The Da Vinci Code, a period after you wrote it in 2003 when the

Catholic Church in particular piled onto you, accusing you of egregious

falsehoods, of undermining the key tenants of the faith in a way they

said was purely falls. Has that encouraged you to want to take on

religion more? Perhaps, it's interesting, this was sent me but

when The Da Vinci Code came out I had no idea it was going to be so

controversial. I was asking a hypothetical question. For those who

have not read it of whom are not many, let's remind them, you

posited, a complex story that other hard that the notion that there was

and is a conspiracy at heart of Christianity to hide the true story

of Jesus Christ. That he was a mortal prophet not literally the son

of God. Yes, a hypothetical... And you didn't realise it was going to

be controversial? Because it's a thriller. If your faith is shaken to

the court by a thriller you have to look at your faith. The reason the

book was so controversial I guess is the only word is that because for a

lot of people the story I told made more rational sense than the story

they heard on Sunday school and certainly for me the story I told

makes more logical sense. That is what was so dangerous. It sold

hundreds of millions of copies in the end and that it's been

translated all around the world but one of the problems those defending

the Christian story had with the book was they felt Chielewski and

fact and fiction in a way which was completely unreasonable and led many

breeders to be deeply confused about where the lines between fact and

fiction wearer. That's what I do, I do something intentional with these

books which is blend that line. What I true to do is take real documents,

real art and history and interweave fictional characters discussing them

and they have their own ideas and they debate these topics. Guessed

that your altars voices telling us, I think, correct me if you think I

am wrong, telling us that you believe in certain things like this

secretive movements, the Priory of Sion in France which in the book

becomes a movement that is trying to deliver into power descendants of

Jesus Christ in a secretive way. The feeling one gets is that you believe

that was true. And I personally do believe it's true, I spent a long

time researching this book. But you know it has been thoroughly

debunked. Any time you read a book, if you read about challenging

religion, the premise of the book is that his today as we know it is it

is not like it is of course historians will say it is not

accurate. But this is so germane to the times we live in today, you are

suggesting is what is true and what is not is not always truly

decipherable, if ever. But it's beyond doubt is it not that this

idea of the secretive Priory of Sion was a hoax developed by a French

bloke in the 1950s, the research is in and it was a hoax and you may be

hoaxed by it but was it not time for you to say you got it wrong? I'm

talking about my beliefs of the story of Jesus Christ. How I tell

the story, it's a creative art, I can take some of what I want from

history, some of its real and some of it not, I do not know enough

about the Priory of Sion to savour a bag that is true or a hoax, I have

no idea. At the time I wrote the book I believed it was true. Has

your ideas and further research change your mind in any way? Gonna

that hasn't, I have moved on from that story and left it behind. It is

important, I am not trying to convince anyone of an idea, I am

trying to write an enjoyable book which gets people talking. If people

decide to believe the story then great, if they decide to say it's

just a thriller and crazy talk that is fine too. It's just intended to

get people thinking about why they believe what they believe. The idea

fake news now is absolutely germane to the conversation, how do you know

what is true and what is false? But do you or do you not believe there

is truth that in falsehoods and we as human beings has a duty to

differentiate? I believe we do as historians. As creative novelists we

have the duty to get people to go and ask questions about their own

sources. That brings me back the latest work, Origin. At its heart is

this figure who is perhaps an hour just to some of the great kick gurus

of our time, Elon Musk or whoever, he believes he has unlocked the

secret to how life began. The essence of what we are. In the end,

if I am reading the book correctly your conclusion seems to be there is

a truly scientific explanation for life, it is out there, somebody has

got the secret. So science wins in your view. It is funny, every

religion has a creation story that involves a supernatural power of

some sort. To basically say what if life just happens, that is enormous

implications for religion. If we don't need God, if we do not need a

creator... That is what I am driving at and that is why I lead you

through this question, what do you believe, are you able to tell me

what you believe about for example where life began? Sure, coming

through the process of writing this book and talking to physicists and

microbiologists and reading about what is happening right now

literally in the last two years, I personally believe the laws of

physics are enough to create life. There is no God? I said I did not

see that. If you ask me what I specifically believe, I no longer

believe in the God of my childhood, IDT sending his son dying to be

crucified for my sins. But if I lie out under a starlit sky I feel there

is something a lot bigger than us. I don't know what it is, I don't have

a word for it. I would not presume to try to describe it. It's hard to

take that step into atheism. I am moving in that direction but for me

in my life it is still hard to say there is nothing. Is it partly hard

because you live in a society in the United States where it is quite

difficult to be a public figure who says I am an atheist? You are right

but it's getting easier to step out and say you know what... Is it, in

America today? OK, today we have some strange things going on in

America, I considered writing the Trump code but it was too

unbelievable even for me. It's easy to smile but perhaps also easy to be

alarmed, are you? Of course I am. One of the challenges with that

religion is reading metaphor as fact, that's one of the big dangers

of religion, to take metaphors like the story of Adam and Eve and see it

as fact, not only can you not ridicule it and we will debate if we

will teach you to children and that is where it a problem. Other aspects

of the public debate where people increasingly have questions about

expert opinion and its validity, climate change for example. At the

top of the government are people deeply sceptical about what appears

to be the consensus science on climate change. Do you see that as a

trend which could take us human beings into dangerous place? I do

and it has less to do with science and more to do with politics. I

think if the politics favoured global warming taking place them

global warming would be taking place. I entirely believe global

warming is a major issue for all of humanity and it's astonishing to me

that it remains, that there are questions at the upper levels of

government, it is amazing to me. Another theme in this book and I

suspect something you are personally interested in is artificial

intelligence. In some ways you appear to be close to believing the

next phase of evolution will involve human beings somehow transforming

with the help of machines. I am not close to believing it, I believe it.

Explained. If you look at how we live now, we carry little computers,

they will be part of us, they already are, we cannot function

without our little machines. Hearing aids will be implanted. Scientists

disagree if this is good bad, some believe the power of artificial

intelligence will save us and solve global issues of scarcity and

overpopulation. Others believe it will kill us, that we as a species

have never created a weapon, are never created a technology we have

not weaponised. Fire, cooked food but went on and burned down in

neighbouring villages, nuclear power turned into weapons. We would be

naive to think there will not be a dark side to artificial intelligence

but I am an optimist and tend to think there is more love than hate

in the world and we will learn how to use artificial intelligence

Brigade. Rodney asked about how you write, because you unlike some

extraordinary successful thriller writers do not churn out novel after

novel after novel. We know of some writers who almost have writing

factories where they have assistance to help them with plotlines and to

develop the novel and then the master craftsman comes and policies

it up, you're not like that at all. I have looked at the record, 4-6

years pause between the release of the next epic tale. There is no

pause, I am working the whole time. To research Origin took about a year

and a half, read everything I could about artificial intelligence,

criticism, modern art, enough to go to these locations and have

intelligent conversations, I excused myself to the point I knew what to

ask. These books are intricate and I want to make sure they are done

right and it takes me forever. I'm a slow writer, I do not get it right

the first time. I write scenes from many points of view to figure out

how the scene is affecting each character. It's a pretty lonely

life. It is, it's funny, we were joking that I is Ben four years all

in the dark and then suddenly you are out in public, a in-your-face

seen be fascinating. This is your moment in the daylight! Exactly! But

in a funny sort of way that makes you public property and a public

figure but somebody who is hardly ever around. Don't you ever have,

even in this conversation you have said fascinating things about

science and your concerns and your own country about your concerns

about where humanity is taking itself and yet three years on end

you are entirely silent. That is true I am putting all that into a

novel to share with the world. I find it's the only way I can write

because I don't like being influenced enormously by having to

formulate my ideas in public before they are formed. Writing these books

is how I figure out what I believe. I am not assuming anything about

your politics but given what we see in American politics today don't you

ever feel like playing perhaps a more prominent role in being a

public voice, maybe some sort of conscience, using a platform to talk

openly about what you see in front of you? I feel like I do that

through these books. They reach an enormous portion of the population.

I don't like to presume I have the answers. I liked our people raise

the questions under five created even dinner time conversation is

about important topics I've done our job. To get people to start venting.

The real danger is when we just sort of think we believe something

without really asking ourselves why we believe it. The second, for many

of us, the second we ask why do I believe this we have to start to

quantify and codify and articulate what it is you believe and you

realise you do not believe it at all. That's a process which is most

gratifying. Do you have a lot of strong core beliefs yourself? I do.

I try to be fair and argue both sides of the question and the one

thing which was fun about writing Origin is it felt like land had

thrown off the shackles of bit and through the character of Edmund was

able to say we are in a dangerous time into revolution and religion is

bling a dangerous role. The positive role also about the dangerous role

and the idea of having to shut down rational thought in order to be

religious is extremely dangerous and I was able to come out and

articulate that. Interesting that you are so fascinated by the role of

religion and can see its dangers yet you are always, one has to say in

the books from da Vinci code to Origin, you focus on Christianity.

Why are you not, given the way the world works today and some of the

other dangers we see arising out of some forms of religious belief why

are you not addressing other religions? This book does address,

Islam, Judaism and Christianity share the gospel and there are

characters from all faiths. I just wonder if you led the same critical

eye that you have led to Christianity to Islam for example,

if you are fearful, mindful of what has happened to other writers like

Salman Rushdie. It's not occurred because it's not something I would

do, Christianity, I write these books to ask myself these questions

and Christianity is my experience. It's the world that affect me most

because it's how I grew up. These are my core values. I write these

books in many ways for myself, to explore these ideas. That's why I

continually choose Christianity. You just mentioned Robert Blanton and

how he is cutting loose, would it be right to say that Professor Roberts

Langdon with his travel and code breaking and of thing else is the

guy you'd love to be? That is the best way to say it, he's the man I

wish I could be, he is more daring and intelligent. Somebody once joked

that how could he be more intelligent because he says

everything you think. But then I pointed out when he says something

off the top of his head about a painting, it took me three days to

research that. How long can Langdon go on? He has tough luck and ends up

in some pretty bad situation so I don't know! If I was him I might go

home for a while. I think Langdon need a vacation and he might take

one. You're now so well known for the series, could you see yourself

as, still a young writer, just going into a different genre, writing

something left field, that your stable audience would be completely

be surprised by. I have some ideas I cannot possibly put out but sure. It

is just between you, me and millions of years. I have some ideas for a

book which would shock everyone, it's so far outside the realm of

what I am known for. But it would be a lot of fun to write. Fiction?

Nonfiction. You will come back when... I will, hopefully in a room

as spectacular as this. Dan Brown we have to end it there but thank you

very much for being on HARDtalk.