Joe Arpaio - Sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona (1993-2016) HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

In the United States, the sheriff has always had a special

status as the defender of their community,

the embodiment of law, justice and the American way.

But sheriffs can be politically controversial figures too.

None more so than my guest today, Joe Arpaio, sheriff

of Maricopa County Arizona for 24 years until 2016.

A self-styled tough guy, convicted of criminal

contempt and controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump

Did Joe Arpaio betray the American values he pledged to uphold?

Thanks for having me. It's great to have you on the show. Of course you

are not longer wearing the Sheriff's badge after nearly a quarter of the

century. Is it now time for you to acknowledge the mistakes he made

while in office? Well, you know I'm a big Frank Sinatra, My Way the

song, he always says regrets I've had a few. If you talk about

mistakes, everyone makes mistakes. By the way, I want to thank your

country. You mentioned the elected Sheriff, which originated years and

years ago. It came to the US, the Western Sheriff. We now have 3000.

Chief law enforcement officer for the county. So I am very proud to

have spent 24 years serving the people. No one would doubt your

success in terms of re-elections. I believe you were re-elected five

times. But nobody in Maricopa County chose you, elected you, to violate

the constitution, but that is clearly what you ended up doing and

I'm just wondering whether you are prepared to say sorry for that now.

I did not violate the constitution. It is an issue that a judge decided

to repeat or report during a trial, so we are appealing that. This is a

misdemeanour. At the same -- the same time you can get for barking

dogs. It took eight years when Obama and the attorney general went after

me. After 60 days taking over. Here we are at the end on a misdemeanour,

a contempt of court, and this chapter is not over yet, believe me,

because the truth will come out very soon. Right. But when you suggest to

me that there's something political at the heart of this, I would simply

reply to you that the key judgement in case was surely that from the

district court in 2013, handed down by judge Murray Snow, unknown

Conservative, appointed to his post by George W Bush, and he is the one

who says the evidence clearly demonstrates that your office, the

Sheriff's office in Maricopa County, said what happened was

unconstitutional. Well in that... After that there was no violation.

Prior to that we have the authority in the US government to act as

immigration officers. So that was his decision and then he wanted to

make sure that he would do everything to get me out of office,

according to his wife. There's so much involved in this that I'm not

going to talk about it now. But you'll be hearing about the real

story about the judicial system and how they went after this Sheriff,

took them eight years on a contempt of court for a small crime... Hang

on a minute, Sheriff, if I can still call you Sheriff, I think I can.

Hang on a minute. As the chief lawman in Maricopa County I can't

imagine what possessed you to consistently flout the order of the

court and to end up in contempt. You were the lawman. How could you defy

the authority of a court? First of all, there was no intention. That's

a civil case you are talking about with Snow. The conviction had to do

with a criminal misdemeanour charge. Think of that. One judge refused to

give me a jury. A wrong charge. I can go on and on. On contempt of

court. It had nothing to do with racial profile or anything regarding

the profiling, if you want to call it that. I do... I do want to call

it... I do want to call it profiling because a part of this case, for

those who don't know, are the orders you gave your men to specifically

target Latinos when it came to police stops on the basis that you

were looking for it seems in legal immigrants, in a way that the courts

decided was completely in contravention of the constitution.

Many people in your own County saw your activities as fundamentally

racist. That's not true. When you say... Either way, I keep getting

re-elected so evidently the people think I'm doing a job and defending

them and going after the criminals. I'm not going to get into everything

on this case, let me say this: We had the authority under the federal

government to act as immigration officers. We don't just pick up

people on the street because of the colour of their skin. When you

arrest people on any charge and they happen to be here illegally, of

course we would turn them over to the government, where they would in

most cases be deported. You were convicted... I'm not going to keep

talking about this case because it is not over yet. I am appealing this

misdemeanour conviction of contempt of court and then I will be speaking

out so you and everybody else will know how a judicial system is

somewhat corrupt. When you mention the judge was conservative,

appointed by Bush, actually that was at the tail end, recommended by a

certain US Senator, I don't care... If I may say so, the point surely is

this. You have a criminal record now. You say you are peeling and of

course you have been pardoned. But I want to get to the heart of the

matter, which is the impact of that part of which was issued by Donald

Trump a couple of months ago. Did you see that as payback for the

staunch support that you gave to Donald Trump from the very beginning

of his campaign? I did not ask for the pardon, he decided to do it when

he heard the fax of this case. I welcome that pardon. I was with him

from day one, July, 2015, and I'll be with him to the end. It had

nothing to do with the pardon. That was a right end he did. I'm not

guilty. -- thing he did. I will continue to fight. You say I have a

criminal record. I do because of the latest decision of another judge on

that contempt of court, so we'll appeal that. Sheriff, have you

paused for a second is to consider the impact of the pardon on some of

the people who were victimised by your officers during that period

when you were the Sheriff of Maricopa County? How do you think

they feel about your part? Ioanna how they feel. -- I don't know.

There are those who believe that people can come into this country

illegally and get by with it, so maybe we should also look at all

those hundreds and thousands that have violated the constitution, have

come into this country illegally with a high percentage committing

other crimes and look at that. When you say... Wait a minute. When you

say how the victims feel, where are all the victims? And see... I didn't

see any victims go to court. I will tell you about one victim.

One man who lives in Phoenix, he was a plaintiff in the ACLU class-action

lawsuit against Maricopa County. After you are pardoned he said this.

I pardoning him, that is you, Trump is saying to the nation that it is

OK to insult another brace or another culture. Instead of making

America great, Trump is making America a lot more divided, just

like Joe Arpaio did here in Phoenix. Well, when you talk about one person

or to people who complained, I'm not going to get into that case on a

probable cause, but when you have one or two, where is the uproar?

Where are all the victims? Not even appearing in court. You want more.

I'll give you more. The Mayor of Phoenix. You know what he said after

the pardon? He says, this pardon of Arpaio was a slap in the face to the

people of Maricopa County, especially the Latina community and

all of those he victimised, systematically and illegally

violating their civil rights. That a mayor just running for office. This

is all politics, with him speaking out. He ought to worry about his

police department and enforcing the law, which the Supreme Court said we

can do, or law enforcement. So one of going to get into the Mayor. He

is speaking out now because he wants to run for Congress. You are picking

out a couple of people who made their statements for political

reasons, without knowing all the facts. I'm not blaming you for that.

Thanks for not blaming me. I mean, as you may recall, I came to visit

you a few years ago in Maricopa County and he very kindly showed me

around some of your installations, including the tent city. I put this

point you. Now that you are no longer Sheriff, maybe you can

reflect a little bit on some of the things you did. In 2008 you are

caught on video referring to your tent city as a" concentration camp".

You must regret that now? I don't regret it. I made one statement when

I was leading the Italian- American club and there was a crowd of

demonstrators. It was everywhere I went we had demonstrators. When you

know there are many critics of yours in your own county who feel that

your record is racist, to refer to your own initiative, the tent city

where more than 1000 prisoners were kept and sometimes in 130 Fahrenheit

heat, referring to it as a concentration camp says something

about your judgement. Let me say I am very proud of the tent city that

start at 34 years ago. It's been a great programme, a great deterrent,

because many, many people do not violate the law here because they do

not want to end up in tent city. Let me say this, including your country,

in our country fighting... Fighting... Al-Sultan is fighting

for our countries and they're living in tents. So when you are going to

complain about convicted, they are all convicted, serving some time in

tent city and we haven't had that many problems. One of the greatest

programmes in this country. So a lot of people don't like it. We still

get people who thanked me about it. If I may say so, you have had a lot

of problems. You had a justice in part -- department investigation we

-- with serious problems, including Latina people being denied basic hi

-- basic services and you also had a high suicide rate in your jails. The

amount of suicides as a proportion of overall debts in the jail system

is extraordinary. 24%. Why do you think that was? That's all wrong.

You are reading from other periodicals. You are way off base.

We haven't had 24% suicides. We run a safe jail system and I'm going to

tell you another thing. Probably the safest jail system in the country.

When you really analyse the truth and starts. I'm quoting you stop

that come from various officials apartments. Not ready for % of all

prisoners, I'm saying 24% of those in your jails were said to be

suicides. Are you denying that? Gyan. Of course I am. -- of course I

am. They say 200 people have died or are suing me, that's not true. The

Justice Department did look into it, we alleviated that problem. So if

it's so bad in 24 years, how come I've never been charged with

anything? Think of that. You have been, we said that already.

That was contempt of court. It has nothing to do with any charges,

criminal charges, that was contempt of court because the judge said I

did not follow his order. That is the only charge in 24 years, a

misdemeanour. Do you happen to know how much the various lawsuits and

pay-outs were given during your regime as sheriff over 24 years, how

much it amounted to? It came down to the taxpayer, Arizona taxpayers. Do

you know what it was? I would say maybe $100 million. $140 million!

OK. Duvet that over 24 years. We will put our record against any law

enforcement agency in this country -- divide. This is very difficult to

get the story, the true facts, out. You are hitting me with all of these

questions. Unfortunately, you don't have the right information. But

that's OK. I am glad to talk to you. And I am glad to talk to you as

well. The thing is, Sheriff, you did literally adopt the profile of

toughest sheriff in America. You also took a stand on other issues

that had nothing to do with the county, and one of which is you're

adamant assistance, the insistence that Barack Obama was not an

American, you said he was from somewhere else. You are wrong. I

never questioned where he was born. From the first day, I said we would

investigate a false government document. I don't care where he came

from. It is a false birth certificate, official document. Get

the story straight. Not so long ago, you and your staff came out with

your findings, as you put it, from a five-year investigation which you

say proved Barack Obama's birth certificate was a fake, you talked

about forgery on the document. My question really is, why was the

sheriff of the county doing this? Because the people of this county

came to me and wanted me to look into the investigation since the

Federal government, no one, would develop and look at that

investigation. It had to do with the election process which people do

vote in this county as well for President of the United States. So I

took this on struck it ago after someone with a false government

document. -- simply to go after. I am not done with it yet. Would you

call yourself a Republican? Are you MMA of the Republican Party? Yes, I

am. It is interesting to meet. If we are going to talk about your

political impact, and I think we have to, because you have chosen to

be such a high-profile figure, why is it so many fellow Republicans of

the highest profile, including John McCain, Paul Ryan, all of them have

condemned you, and in particular, condemned Donald Trump for pardoning

you? That is the political situation. You named three or four

that don't like the president. OK? But what about everybody else who

supports me on the party? The people of this country support me. You have

a few politicians who hate the president and will say anything to

embarrass the president. So let them do it. It just strikes me there

might be something deeper than that going on. Is it possible that a lot

of Republicans look at you and your profile, your message, and the

impact, and they see someone who is toxic to their efforts to reach out

to the minority and the fast-growing Latino population of the US? I don't

know. You say these Republicans... I will tell you four candidates who

visited the city. I have great support. People come to me every

time and say run for president, including 2012. They come to me,

including this time around, they want my endorsement. Inevitably, the

Republican Party still wants my endorsement even after this

misdemeanour conviction. They still want my endorsement. You say that...

Let me quote you Mike, a Republican consultant in California, after you

went to a fundraiser event in Fresno a month or so ago, I believe, this

is what he said. It is an unmitigated disaster to have him as

a neighbour. It is beyond belief a man convicted of racial profiling is

held up as a man of note in the party of Abraham Lincoln and Ronald

Reagan. 300 Republicans showed up to hear me speak. You can quote one or

two of the people all you want, the majority of Republicans support me.

Because you are a committed Republican. How do you think the

Republican Party will reach out to this demographic, the Latino

community, which even in your State of Arizona is growing exponentially.

They believe that by 2023, minorities will be the majority in

your own home State of Arizona. You Republicans need to address that,

but it seems like you are not addressing that at all. I am a law

enforcer. I spend 55 years, including working in England and

Turkey as the head of Federal US enforcement. Mexico City, I was a

director to be South America, Texas, Arizona. -- director. No one talks

about that. I am an equal opportunity law enforcement person.

I lock everyone up. Republicans, Democrats, anyone. Naturally, you

have to be a politician to get elected. You have to do that. You

have to wear that hat. In my 55 years, I don't care who they are,

what status they have, what nationality, I enforce the laws.

That is the way I have been doing it. Before we end, we are almost out

of time, I need a thought from you. Your friend, Donald Trump, his

approval rating is at 35%, pretty much as low as it has ever been.

Approval rating, 35%. Disapproval rating, 60%. George W. Bush the

other other day said this of the times were living in in Donald

Trump's America. Bigotry seems emboldened and our politics more

vulnerable to conspiracy theory and outright publication. Bigotry in any

form, says George Bush, is blasphemy against the American creed. He is

worried about Donald Trump's America. What about you? I was a

campaign guide for George Bush and Mitt Romney and Rick Perry. You say

his so-called polls have him at 32%. He is still higher than you

profession, the media, and Congress. I think he is doing pretty good.

With my point, especially with George W Bush and what he said about

bigotry right now in America seeming emboldened, are you worried about

what you have seen from the White House and what the tone of Donald

Trump's America is? I am not worried about it. My mother and father came

here from Italy, legally, of course. Immigrants made this country great

and that will continue. But they must come across into our country

legally a man not illegally. And that is the whole question of the

fight that is going on. It is great. Let them keep coming into our

country, but legally. Sheriff Joe Arpaio, thank you very much for

coming onto HARDtalk we have to leave it there. Thank you.