Jamal Khashoggi, Saudi Journalist HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen

Sackur. There are no tanks on the

streets of Riyadh, but make no

mistake, what has just happened in

Saudi Arabia represents a revolution

of sorts. King Salman and his son

Crown Prince Mohammed have started a

purge of princes and ministers and

potential rivals, part of a grand

plan to entrench their power and

transformed the country. My guess is

Saudi journalist and current

political exile, Jamal Khashoggi. --

guest. Is the Saudi drama about raw

power or real reform?

Jamal Khashoggi, welcome to

HARDtalk.

Thank you for having me.

It is a pleasure. You have been

calling for a long time now for

reform in the Kingdom of Saudi

Arabia. We now see a man at the top

who appears determined to deliver on

reform. Are you delighted with what

you are seeing in the Saudi capital?

I might sound throughout the show to

have conflicting messages. Yes, I am

delighted. But we have seen issues

with one man rule. It always ends

with disaster. Saudi Arabia was not

a democracy, but it used to be ruled

by consensus, not between us and the

royal family, but within the royal

family itself. Perhaps that

safeguarded Saudi Arabia in the past

from adventurous policies. But today

it is ruled only by one man. Not

even just the family. He is the sole

leader of Saudi Arabia. He owns the

future of Saudi Arabia. It is up to

him to drive us to prosperity and

reform or wars, we don't know.

Let

me just be clear. When you talk

about one man, are you talking about

the Crown Prince, or the actual king

of Saudi Arabia, King Salman? Let's

face it, the monarch is King Salman,

but I suspect you are not talking

about him.

I am talking about Crown

Prince Mohammed. King Salman has

delegated responsibility to his son.

Not officially, but in reality.

Your

point about the end of consensual

decision-making within the royal

family raises an important question.

And surely, Mohammed bin Salman and

his father are delivering a simple

message, there are many, many

corrupt people in the royal family.

They have put 11 princes under

detainment. They have been

responsible of milking the Kingdom

of billions and billions of dollars.

Very much correct. Corruption in

Saudi Arabia is endemic. It has

depleted Saudi resources. It has

corrupted even the mindset of the

business environment. And it had to

end. And we have been saying that,

us writers. So, he has to do that.

But is he doing it the right way? I

can add to the list 10 others,

royals and non-royals, who are

corrupt. Every single person

arrested, there has to be 10 others

who should be with them. And then

the council is corrupted itself.

What is corruption? It is still

being practised until the date Saudi

radio. So, there is a need to be

transparency. -- until today in

Saudi Arabia. There is need for a

media and open dialogue about it, of

which there is none.

You have to

start somewhere. Clearly, he started

with a very dramatic move against,

we believe, at least 500 people, and

I hear there will be more arrested

in the next few days. And the

message from Mohamed bin Salman to

these people seems to be quite

simple, you have taken from the

Kingdom and its oil riches all of

these hundreds of billions of

dollars and we want to take the

money back to the people of Saudi

Arabia can enjoy the fruits of these

riches. Surely that message

resonates with all the people in the

Kingdom.

I think we should give him

the benefit of the doubt. But should

not we discuss that in Saudi media,

in a consultation body? Those things

are essential. Yes, we need to crash

radicalism and corruption, but it is

being done by one direction by one

man rule. -- crush.

Are you saying

there is no space at all to discuss

the nature of Mahmoud bin Salman's

initiatives, including the

Anti-Corruption Drive? I know that

Saudis are extremely wired to social

media, one of the most connected in

the world. All sorts of young Saudis

have tweeted. Here are a few I will

quote. This man says this represents

the Saudi dreams we have been

waiting for. Thank God we now have a

vision and a print to carry forward

our ambitions. Another the mouse is

this. A leader speaking for the

benefit of the future. This person

says we have an extraordinary Crown

Prince, the saviour of our

generation, working for a great leap

towards the future! That is the

voice of young Saudis!

Very much

correct. If I was to speak like

them, I would also be in Saudi

Arabia. But rather are the voices,

and they are not being heard. They

are being told to be silent. They

have signed things saying they will

stay silent. The list of Saudis

banned from travel is growing every

day. Are you not just feeling a

little personally sour because you

have run into problems with the

regime because some of the things

you have said on Twitter in the past

few months have irritated. And also

your former boss, one of the richest

men in Saudi Arabia, Prince Walid,,

he is also in detention as well, and

you are seeing bad things with that.

It is insulting to be told to be

silent. I am more worried than sour.

I am worried for my country. I

cannot retire in America happily in

just the right unimportant issues

and go on with my life. -- and just

write. What is worrying me the most

is one man rule. We need reform, but

one man rule is bad, as I said

earlier. It always goes wrong in any

country, whether it is Saudi Arabia,

Germany, Iraq...

We will get to the

nature of autocracy in just a

moment, but just to focus on your

former boss, someone we are familiar

with, one of Saudi Arabia's richest

and most prominent business people.

He owns hotels around the world and

has huge stakes in America's

businesses. There he is in detention

in Riyadh. Are you saying there are

no grounds to be holding him and

that is a purely political act by

Mahmoud bin Salman?

No, I am not

saying that. There has to be an

investigation. If there is

corruption, perhaps the authorities

know better than I. But as far as I

know, he was not a threat to Prince

Mohammed, and was in fact supportive

of him. A few days before his

arrest, he sent me a text message

urging me to come back to Saudi

Arabia. He said enlightened minds

like you should be with us, joining

my brother, Prince Mohammed, in

building the fourth state. That was

him talking to me and asking me to

return. He was very much supportive

and was not challenging the Crown

Prince.

That is interesting. You are

suggesting to me that the prince,

one of the key figures in all of

this drama, had no idea, even 48

hours before being detained, no idea

that this was coming.

Yes, exactly.

He sent me this message and I am

sure he sent to many other people

because that his habit. He wanted

Prince Mohammed to know that he is

supporting him.

Have you spoken to

him by text, any other form of

communication, since that?

No. I

texted him but there was no reply.

Let's talk about the stability of

the leadership now. You say it is

all about one man, all about Crown

Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He has

moved against some of the most

powerful princes in the house of

Saud, including the former head of

the National Guard, and others. Do

you believe his grip now is

absolutely unchallengeable?

Yes, I

think so. I do not think the royals

can even gather and create a front

against him for a number of reasons.

Number one, they are so fragmented.

Number two, they lack a leader. They

don't have that leader, a moral

leader, who can stand for values and

for Saudi Arabia, who is totally

independent and respected by all of

them. And lastly, because he is

using the stick of corruption. And

if not all, most of them, somehow,

they are involved in some form of

corruption or abuse of power. So, he

has the upper hand on those issues.

So, I think he has won for now, but

his biggest threat is not the

royals, clergy, but the economy. He

has to succeed economically.

I will

talk to you about that soon. But he

thought about what we might learn

from not just Saudi Arabia but Arab

nations experiencing uprisings since

the first Arab Spring in 2011.

Surely the message of all all of

this is that street protests and

toppling governments has been

negative for the nations of the Arab

world. What Mohamed bin Salman seems

to be saying is I know we have to

transform ourselves, we have to

modernise, we have to change, and I

will be that agent of change. You

call him in autocrat, comparing him

to Vladimir Putin, Saddam Hussein,

and others, but surely the message

of the last two years is that the

best hope a nation, Arab nation,

like Saudi Arabia has. Someone who

wants to use his power for genuine

reform and change.

Not by choice,

why fact, de facto. He is the best

choice for Saudi Arabia. That is

what they are saying, they wish him

luck. He has to succeed. That is

what will decide the future of Saudi

Arabia and also his future. It is

for him to succeed. The people of

Saudi Arabia are very much believing

in Mahmoud bin Salman today. He

hardly has any opposition. He hardly

has any serious opposition, we will

say. So, he has all of the floor for

himself for the next few years to

deliver his plan.

OK, and now to the

detail of a plan. You refer to the

vision of 2030. It has various

elements to it. Starting with the

economy, he says he wants to develop

a purely poached whale Saudi Arabian

economy, investing in technology and

building a new city in the

north-west, some calling it a robot

city, such will be the reliance on

new technology. He wants massive

infrastructure spending. Are you

suggesting to me this is all

fantasy, he cannot deliver on this?

fantasy, he cannot deliver on this?

lead their no, he can probably build

the cities but will the cities

succeed?

two cities in Saudi Arabia which

have not succeeded. King Abdullah's

financial city and King

have not succeeded. King Abdullah's

financial city and King Abdullah

industrial city.

I have been to one

of them. I have seen the grand

ambition. The city was pretty empty

when I was there. But it is all

about the ability of Saudi Arabia

two times for myths of from a dairy

--a fairly sort of crude oil economy

for something that is fit for

purpose in the 21st century as a

global leading economy and surely

that ambition has to be Saudi

Arabia's future?

IC to faults in the

vision and I wish I could express

those in a local Saudi newspaper and

we need to do that in Saudi Arabia.

Number one, it is styled Darwin

approach. That will not work for a

country as big as Saudi Arabia. It

would work for a small country, a

city-state like Dubai, Doha or Abu

Dhabi but not Saudi Arabia. Also, it

is not based on jobs. Saudi Arabians

are addicted to foreign Labour. We

need to resolve the culture of jobs

and Saudis will go back to work.

There are all millions Saudis who

are not in jobs today, not 2 million

as the government suggests. The

actual number is 4 million. Every

year, 250,000 young Saudis go to the

job market. That is his biggest task

and he should spend more time on

this problem rather than building a

new city in Saudi Arabia.

But you

said the young people appear to be

overwhelmingly with him and one

reason is not just because he talks

about this new economic proposition

but he also talks the language of

fundamental social change, not least

for women in Saudi Arabia. He has

decreed that all women will be able

to drive illegally come the summer

of 2018. He is giving them places on

the consultative Council. They are

going to be free to attend sports

events. This is very important

stuff, isn't it? He is signalling

that Saudi Arabia's culture, its

social life, it is fundamentally

changing.

Very much, and I

campaigned for it and many other

writers campaigned for it. It was an

issue that we were pushing for

almost every single day. But now we

have put that behind us and we are

moving forward and he is enjoying

all the support from the young

people. He needs to look at the

unemployment issue. He has to

provide jobs for millions of Saudis.

I don't think that can be done from

this top-down approach by building

new cities but rather, starting from

scratch and bringing back the

culture of work to the Saudi

society. The culture of work among

Saudis is dead because of our

addiction to foreign Labour over the

last 40 years. Almost every single

job is done by a foreigner and we

need to be free from that.

What

about the religious element to all

of this? In a keynote speech just

last month, Mohammed bin Salman

pledged, and I'm using his words, to

return Saudi Arabia to moderate

Islam. There is a very complicated

relationship between the rulers of

the Kingdom and the leading clerics

and religious authorities in Saudi

Arabia. Can he deliver on this shift

of the religious Tanah and tone of

the kingdom?

Yes, he can. Because in

the Court of history, young people

are becoming more and more moderate.

Number two, he only needs to unplug

and government support for

radicalism. Radicalism was tolerated

by the government. Radicalism in

Saudi Arabia that was put into the

Saudi curriculum, the Saudi

education system, the mosques, it

was a loud and tolerated by the

government. It the government pulled

the plug, those clergy is dependent

on the government, they will go back

home and seek their own safety.

The

reason why so many people, not least

in the White House behind you, care

about what is happening is -- in

Saudi Arabia is because of the

strategically important kingdom --

the -- the strategically important

role the kingdom plays in the

region. Mohammed bin Salman has, if

you like, being the director of

Saudi Arabia's military assault on

the rebels in Yemen and seems to be

choreographing a very co-ordinated

move, for example encouraging former

prime minister Hariri to resign in

Lebanon, getting tough with Iran,

sending signals to Qatar, that's

their radicalism will not be

tolerated any more. Is all these

different ways in which Saudi Arabia

is mixing its muscle will be

intensified in the coming months and

years?

It has to succeed. Before it

could intensify, what about its

chance of success? That worries us.

As a citizen, I want to stop uranium

expansionism, sectarian expansionism

but I don't want war with the

Iranians, it will damage both

countries. I would like to see Saudi

Arabians more inspired for change,

such as the Arab Spring. It is not a

conspiracy as many Saudi people

suggest. Young people in a jeep in

Syria, they want better regimes,

they want a say in their government.

Unfortunately, I see my country

countering such aspirations. That

could drive Iran and Isis and

radicalism a way from the region by

placing those factors of change

which are still happening in Yemen,

in Syria. In Yemen, Saudi Arabia can

play a role in bringing all you many

is together to find a power-sharing

formula and that will end the war.

-- the people of Yemen.

But that is

not happening. I wonder if you

believe whether Mohammed bin Salman

is seriously contemplating war with

Iran?

I hope not. We have to wonder

what kind of exchange is having with

the American Administration and the

Americans giving promises they

cannot fulfil. Are the Americans

behind this drum of war that has

been sounded by us, the Saudis? It's

not clear yet. I don't think the

Americans will on our behalf but who

is going to do the fighting? I hope

not Saudi Arabia. Even though I

would like Iran out of our rage and

-- region, war with Iran is very

bad.

Final question, you warned me

that I might find some of your

position is confusing or conflicted

and I have. Throughout the course of

this conversation, you have

suggested that many of the things

Mohammed bin Salman is trying to do

is the right thing for Saudi Arabia

but you have also in this interview

compared him to autocrats including

Putin, Saddam Hussein and others.

You ultimately believe he represents

Saudi Arabia's best chance and will

you at some point go home to try to

be part of the change and reform of

your kingdom?

I have no option but

to wish he leads Saudi Arabia

because I will not vote him out, we

don't have elections in Saudi

Arabia. He won the throne, really.

Even within the family. There is no

serious competition or threat to

him, even within the family. I wish

I could go home but the environment

is not welcoming to me or any other

Saudi writers, economists who are

independent. All the people around

him are yes-men and he wants that.

He thinks he can do it alone. He

thinks he is that she thinks he is

the lead of the country has been

waiting for so I will just settle

for my role to be here in Washington

and hopefully provide a loyal

opposition.

Jamal Khashoggi, we

thank you for being on HARDtalk

Thank you very much.