Jacob Rees Mogg - Conservative Party, UK HARDtalk

Mr Mugabe's wife Grace looks

much closer to becoming

president.

It's just past half past two.

Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen

Sackur. Authority is a priceless

commodity in politics. It is not

usually measured, but when they pry

Minister loses it, well, then

governing becomes a perilous task.

So it made be in Britain today:

Theresa May has lost two Cabinet

ministers in a week, and her own

team is divided over Brexit and

seems unsure about its core message.

My guess today is the increasingly

influential conservative MP and

staunch Brexiteer, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Can the Tories get out of the hole

they are and? -- they are in.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, welcome to HARDtalk

Thank you very much.

You are an

increasingly important backbench

member of a party.

The government

representing a party seems to be

staggering between misfortune and

disaster.

Why is this happening?

Well, first of all, I think there

have inevitably been difficulties,

and most of these come from failing

to win a majority in the election in

June. But the events that have taken

place over the last couple of weeks:

The two ministerial resignations,

these are things that happened to

governments of all kinds.

Well, they

are not really the sorts of things

that regularly happen. We have Priti

Patel who resigned, fairly asked to

resign after the most extraordinary

dramatic gasp in which he appeared

to go completely freelance,

diplomatically speaking, in his

visit to Israel.

There are

resignations this over decors. The

best was Peter Mandelson, twice,

essentially from the same

government. This happens to

governance with big majorities in

small majority. It happens over

bridges and ministerial code, and

sex scandals. It happens in

government, and it does not to the

weakness or strength of the

government. That is indicated by

other factors. It does signal that

this Prime Minister is seeing her

authority draining away.

Priti

Patel, to continue with her case, it

surely would not have felt able to

undertake the diplomatic or freed --

diplomatic freelancing she did were

it not for a lack of authority at

the centre of government.

I think

you are seeing things that do not

exist. If you go back to Lord

Mandelson.

I would prefer to stick

with current events.

It is quite

important because you need to get a

perspective as to whether this

resignation is something

exceptionally unusual or something

which happens to all governments.

There are mum when Lord Mandelson

resigned it was because he had

accepted a loan from someone in

another ministry, and did not

declare, in breach of ministerial

codes. This was embarrassing to Tony

Blair at the time. But it was

unimportant in the grand scheme of

the Tony Blair government.

Ancient

history, but I would rather continue

discussing what is happening in your

government today.

It is not mine, it

is Her Majesty's. The key to this is

whether there is something unusual

about the problems this gamut is

facing, and whether they come, as

you propose, from weakness, or if

these are something that happens to

governments not just of recent

decades, but over centuries. If you

want to go back to the Stonehouse

affair...

I would prefer to focus on

whether this government can

continue. We know that a significant

batch bench MP these days called for

Theresa May to leave and called for

a campaign to topple her. He got a

significant number of MPs to back

in, but not enough.

Hold on. I don't

think we found out who any of these

Cabinet ministers... No, I think

that when names up bandied about, it

is useful to know what those names -

who those names belong to. I also

think there is something, and you

said it flatteringly about me, as

well, but something about being

influential and a backbencher. If

you are influential, you another

backbencher.

Let's get back to Boris

Johnson. He misleadingly suggested

that a British citizen who is

currently being detained in prison

in around, arrested last year, it is

suggested that she was in Iran train

journalists. That is untrue. She was

there on holiday. Boris Johnson

surely to go. Personally that is not

just exacerbated a humanitarian

crisis for that family, but also a

terrible dramatic gasp.

Boris

Johnson is giving evidence of an

extensive period to the foreign

affairs Select Committee. He made a

mistake. I think you can...

Can you

afford to miss the?

Is clarified it

to make the position clear. I don't

think you can expect ministers to

resign every time they mispeak. You

need continuity in government and

you need to recognise that ministers

will make mistakes. The question is

the level of seriousness. And I

don't think this meets the test of

that sort of seriousness.

Your

perspective is curly different to

that of her family. They are

appalled by what happened, not least

because Iranian media reports that

this is proof that she was sent by

the British government.

I have

obvious is seen as reports. They've

come out recently in relation to

what the Iranian government is

doing. It is difficult that the

mackerel

-- it is difficult that the Iranian

government is handling this way. But

they have unfairly and unjustly

detained to me and prevented her

from seeing her own children and

family, and doing this on the bogus

pretext of spying. We need to look

at where the real fault is rather

than in the mispeaking.

Eight column

in the Times here has suggested that

Boris Johnson has proved himself

unfit for high office. -- A column.

It is a readable: -- is a readable

column but is not infallible. This

was written by a long critical of

Boris Johnson. He used to be one of

the leading admirers. Newspaper

columns, which my father used to

write for many years, have to ensure

that they have something interesting

to say, day after day, and to meet

the deadline for the next day's

news.

They are not wholly read.

Michael Fallon had to resign because

of allegations of sexual

impropriety. We have seen Priti

Patel resign. On education, Theresa

May has chosen a simple one for one

approach of a slob. Is it not time

for a bigger and more thorough

reshuffle, to put some new energy

and new blood into this government,

which, friendly, too many people, is

failing. -- approach of a swap.

She

has a wonderful and able Cabinet and

has many people in the Conservative

Party who came in in 2015...

My

question is if it is time to a

bigger reshuffle?

Not necessarily. I

think we have a good quality

Cabinet. We have stable and serious

individuals in it that are doing

important work. I don't think - as

it happens, I don't think that a big

reshuffle is the biggest sign of

strength. Ie don't want to talk

about history again, but I go back

to the night of the Long knives. It

was a sign that control was being

lost. Greater love has no man than

someone who lays down his political

life for his friend was what I think

Thorpe said. I think there is a lot

of ability in the government.

Do you

have paused to think about how the

government looks when viewed, for

example, from Europe? Because this

is - the issue of the aid is the

Brexit negotiations. So it rather

matters how perceptions are now of

the British government in Europe and

across the European capitals. What

do you think they are like?

Well, I

think there is what they want to say

and what they think, obviously. If

you think the Theresa May's got 10%

more in the election we had them

Angela Merkel got in hers, Theresa

May does not... Look at the Spanish

government. Would you rather be the

Prime Minister of the UK all of

Spain at the moment?

Let me give you

a different perspective...

Compared

to continental governments, Her

Majesty's government is quite

stable.

The head of the Foreign

Office said that if you are in a

European capital that it looks

chaotic, confused, and drifting,

when there are big issues around

Brexit. No clear line about the

future relationship with the EU and

a whole series of other crises as

well. Britain is simply not a real

player.

I think this is absurdly

overstated. There is a clear idea

for Brexit, and that was enunciated

by the Prime Minister in her speech

to make speeches. There are parts of

those that are not enthusiastic

about...

We have to talk about that.

But it is a clear manifesto of a

watch is looking for. She has been

generous in her office to the

European Union. The government she

leads is stronger in many, but not

all, but many European governments.

Especially Germany. The German

government is very weak at the

moment. It has not formed or agreed

its coalition.

You talk of European

weakness. The 1.8 think that is

clear is that the EU 27 art united

when it comes to Brexit

negotiations. There will be no

abolition of the talks to the next

phase, and that is to talk about

trade and the transitional

arrangements, until, and this came

out at a meeting of the twin seven

ambassadors specifically talk about

Brexit, no move to that until they

are happy with the cash that is

going to be promised by Britain to

cover the costs of our departure.

--

27 ambassadors. The counter to that

is that the financial framework is

insolvent if we leave without a

deal. That is what they are facing.

You think hardball will work?

Yes.

They are desperate for it pretty £7

billion. -- desperate for £27

billion.

So you are saying great, no

deal, walk away with out giving any

money?

I am saying is in their just

to make a deal. Their current budget

is insolvent without a contribution.

This is a powerful card. Of course

they say they want the money

upfront. Because once we have paid

the money, they don't have to give

us very much.

So this is important.

You are saying it may not be right

to call you influential, but is a

must not go beyond the 27 billion

euros that she has promised.

-- 30

billion euros. That is generous. --

20 billion euros.

Not only do some countries get less

in the long-term, but they get less

in April 2000 19. Suddenly

expenditure needs to stop or more

money needs to be raised.

Somebody's

bluff will be called. -- 2019. You

said could be Europe, but it could

be Theresa May's government, who

could find there could be a no deal

wrecks it because the Europeans

won't give ground on wanting more

than 20 billion.

They WTA Brexit is

a good want the United Kingdom. It

frees us from the protectionist

customs union that makes prices for

British consumers higher and

basically protects inefficient

continental European industries.

They WTO exit saves us a lot of

money. It takes is a long way to

meet in a commitment that was...

The

WTO Brexit you are talking about is

a fantasy. Do you know how many

countries the UK trades with at the

moment on WTO rules?

57% of our

trade.

24 countries.

57% of our

trade is not with EU countries.

But

most of our most important trading

partners in the EU bloc.

No, you

mistake the deals. Most of those

deals are joint competent steels

that we have agreed to individually

as well. Most of those deals, the

counter parties have indicated that

they are to continue this.

You aren't reading what I am

reading. Many details on trade and

legal issues say the idea we can

revert to WTO rules is pure fantasy.

It is straightforward. I was

speaking to the Singaporean High

Commissioner for example. They are

ready to do so because it is a

multi-party agreement. Those trends

-- transferrals are simple.

It

depends who you talk to. It depends

who you talk to. Recently you talked

to the head of the CBI. She says her

members are deeply alarmed. 60% of

companies expect they must have

contingency plans for a crashing out

no deal Brexit by the end of next

March unless there is a breakthrough

before that.

CBI gets money from the

EU. It is the EU funded CBI.

What

about individual chief executives?

Well...

This person says a few

months ago the UK government said we

would be certain to have a deal. He

says if we have to decide some

future investment, of course, the

key point is going to be the

competitiveness of this country in

the future.

You talked about the

CBI. They wanted us to join Estonia.

They were wrong. They wanted us to

join the euro to be they were wrong.

The CBI is hopeless.

If I may say

so...

The CBI is the most

consistently wrong body in the

country.

They are listening to what

their members are saying, the

distances of written. This quote is

from the editor. -- the businesses

of Britain. -- Toyota. They no

longer have the confidence to stay

in Britain and say investment

decisions will be made accordingly.

What are Toyota worried?

They will

no this is how it works.

Why do you

think they are worried?

Why is it

that if people are so worried about

investing that in 2016 the UK

received its largest ever FDI and a

high share of all EU FDI coming into

the European Union? We should watch

what businesses are doing and how

much they are investing, not what it

PR machines are saying.

You don't

agree with the key points of Theresa

May's position on how she once the

negotiations to go. She wants a

two-year transition, and during it,

we will accept all of the rules of

the EU, including the European Court

of Justice, like the printable

freedom of movement, while we

negotiate the long-term deal. --

principle of.

They should have no

involvement after we have left. We

have not left the EU if they are

involved.

Can you imagine voting

against that?

Let me finish. If

those two things apply it is not a

transition, it is remaining in the

EU for an extra two years. I think

that would not meet the conditions

of the vote in June last year.

That

is an interesting characterisation.

I am asking you, would that be a

dealbreaker and would you as a Tory

MP vote against that deal?

The ECG

is a dealbreaker. We must not remain

under their jurisdiction.

If you and

like-minded colleagues voted against

it...

If that is what she wants she

will win a vote in the House of

Commons no matter what I think.

You

don't know what Labour will do.

They

will not vote down a vote including

the ECG.

Talking about the Tory

party. We have had Nick Balls, a

close confidant of David Cameron and

minister in the Cameron Parliament,

he says all talk of austerity has to

end. It is over as far as he is

concerned. You are an MP who has

consistently supported for example

all the cuts to the welfare budget,

the benefit system, do you feel the

Tories need to develop a message

that austerity is over?

I think that

Nick Balls is one of the most

important thinkers in the Tory party

and always worth listening to. His

point is that the debt as a

percentage of GDP was over 20% in

2010 and now it is under 3% and does

not require emergency measures. But

we still need to live within our

means. It is a question of whether

money should be spent, how it should

be spent, and what the parity is.

But most of the work of austerity

has been done. As for welfare

changes, most of my support was

because I think they will deliver

welfare better. Universal Credit is

not a money-saving scheme, it is to

help it will get back into work and

to look at them as individuals

rather than to categorise them as

welfare depend on people and to let

them live the life they can lead. It

is the transformation of welfare

that is important.

Your voice

matters. You are very conservative

on a number of issues. You are an

observant Catholic. On abortion, you

have been honest and clear the

regard abortion as immoral. It is

against your belief. And you will

always campaign to curtail it

wherever you can. Against the

wishes, it is clear, of a big

majority of the British people.

There are a variety of polls. There

always are. I think the key point

here is where do you think life

begins. If you think it is

conception, then, you have to

protect it, you have a duty to

protect it.

And even when a woman

wants an abortion after rape, you

say that is wrong?

I think a light

has been created and is taking that

life does not put right the grave

wrong that has already taken place.

-- life. We can argue about polls,

but roughly 70% of British people do

not agree with you that abortion is

wrong, and they believe people who

want abortion should be able to have

them. That is 24 weeks in the

pregnancy according to current laws

stopping my question is this, if you

are ambitious to play a role,

perhaps not leader, but influential,

is it possible to hold the thoughts

you do on gay marriage and abortion,

out of touch with the country, is it

possible to play a leadership role

with your views?

Umm, well, I think

this doesn't actually matter, that

my job is to represent the people of

North East Somerset. I set out what

I believe and they decide whether to

vote to have me. They agree with

Brexit and it will have a more

immediate effect than my views on

abortion and other moral issues.

Including euthanasia, the most

important of my views. But political

life is about standing up for what

you believe in and not trying to

climb the greasy pole. That is a

secondary task.

We want leaders who

are honest about their beliefs, but

what about representation? I am

thinking of Tim Farron who quit the

job saying because he is a devout

Christian and does not believe in

gay marriage, for example, he said

he found himself completely torn

between living as a faithful

Christian and serving as a political

leader. He found it impossible.

I am

not putting myself forward as a

political leader, as you know. We

live in a country with people being

entitled to religious beliefs and we

have freedom of religion in this

country. Inevitably, people will not

always agree with me, or even new.

Many people don't agree with Theresa

May. Get a leader has to emerge. --

yet. Many people have confidence in

the leader. It would be absurd if

religious belief occluded people

from...

Do you feel you are in tune

with your own country?

It depends on

what subject. There are some things

I find I am in close agreement with

what the majority of my fellow

countrymen think, and others were we

are not in touch. -- where. If you

take the Sun and Mail as British

opinion, I am quite in touch.

We

have to leave it there. Thank you so

much.

Thank you.