David McAllister - Chair, European Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee HARDtalk

harrassment were endemic

in the industry.

Now on BBC News, it's

time for Hardtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen

Sackur. Germany is your's Rhian and

power, but how will early in use

that power over the next few years?

-- Europe's. The make-up of the next

governing coalition has yet to be

decided and there are strategic

uncertainties as well. How far does

Berlin will to push EU integration,

and how wide could transatlantic

differences become? My guest is

David McAllister, a political ally

of Ms Merkel, and chairman of the

European Parliament's Foreign

Affairs Committee. How bold is

Berlin prepared to be?

David McAllister at the European

Parliament in Brussels, welcome to

HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Let's begin

with the notion that the European

Union has been wrestling with some

of an existential crisis for the few

years. Do you think the European

Union has now emerged from that

crisis, or is it still in the middle

of it?

Well, the last years were not

easy for the European Union. That is

obvious. But I think Brexit and

other incidents were a wake-up call

for the 27 member states, and I

believe the European Union is now

facing towards a better future, and

you can also see in the recent

polling that the approval rates for

the European Union membership is

going up in the 27 member states.

A

strong Europe needs a strong

Germany, and right now, of course it

is short-term, but right now there

isn't even a real German government,

and no clarity about what is that

governing coalition is going to look

like. That is a problem, isn't it?

Yes, but this happens after

elections. The German voters decided

about the composition of a new

German Parliament in September. Now

we are busy forming a new

government. It will probably be a

four party government, with the CDU,

the CSU, the Liberals and the

Greens. Hopefully the coalition

negotiations will be concluded

before Christmas. I hope we will

then have a strong and stable

government in Berlin.

Well, it will

not be as strong and stable as

people anticipated. That is clearly

the result of an election where the

CDU, your party, suffered a real

reversal. The results took the

CDU/CSU vote down from eight points

to 33%, from over 40% before. Your

number of seats is down. And

breathing down the necks of the

mainstream parties is a far right

group, the AFD, who got 12% of the

vote. Suddenly Angela Merkel's

leadership in Germany, her dominance

of Germany, doesn't look like it

looked a few months ago.

Well, of

course my political parties, the CDU

and the CSU were hoping for a better

result in September, but the German

electorate decided to give us a

little more than 32%. But we have

shown responsibility since then. We

are ready to form a government

again. Our coalition partner dropped

out of the coalition 80 minutes

after polling stations had closed. I

do not think that was a wise move.

The only option now is to try this

so-called Jamaica coalition, with

the Liberals and the Greens, which

will be challenging. For Russ in the

CDU, one thing is clear. We will not

co-operate in the -- co-operate with

the far left or the far right in the

German Bundestag. So this is the

only option we have. I was sad to

see the alternative to Dorsch lined

become the third strongest party in

the Bundestag. -- Alternative for

Deutschland. We must be very sure

that the Bundestag does not become a

platform for racism and extreme

nationalism.

Would you accept the

point made by Pascal Lamy 80 weeks

ago that what we have now is an

Angela Merkel who has emerged from

the entire electoral process

politically weakened, and the

anti-European forces in Germany have

gained ground. But that together,

and your opening remarks about your

belief that Europe can now move

forward, that of the Nissan is going

to be hamstrung by a much weaker

sense of Angela Merkel's leadership

and Germany's leadership? -- that

assertion is going to be. Well, I do

not agree with Pascal Lamy.

Angela

Merkel has been elected for a fifth

time as the head of a national

government. You will not find many

similar cases in the Western world.

We knew this would be a challenging

election. I am sure we will have a

stable government before Christmas.

I would also like to point out that

despite the 13% that the AFD got at

the election, this means 85% and

more Germans in -- Germans voted in

favour of pro-European parties.

There is a strong pro-EU consensus

within the German political system.

Beyond the coalition of the CSU,

CDU, the Greens and the Liberals,

also the Social Democrats, they are

interested in bringing a European

Union forward and Germany will

continue to play an active role with

the European Union as we have done

over the past decades.

That sort of

boilerplate rhetoric, let's get down

to specifics. You have a French

president, Emmanuel Macron, who has

laid out a vision of what he calls

the historic reconstruction of

Europe and the eurozone. He is

talking about very ambitious things.

A Finance Ministry, the ability to

impose EU wide taxes. Get sharing

within the European Union. These are

all things which are highly

controversial within Germany, but

which more particularly are rejected

by the Free Democrats, who will now

be an instrumental part of the

governing coalition, as you have

just laid out. So I return to this

point. Germany cannot show the

leadership alongside Emmanuel Macron

that many pro- Europeans were hoping

for.

We have heard two very

important speeches on the future of

Europe in the last few weeks. One is

the speech of President Micron. The

other was John Claude Junker's state

of the union speech. I have looked

closely at both speeches and I would

say that 80%, perhaps later %, we

have common ground. If you look at

the German- French cooperation, that

has always been the driving force in

the European Union, and I am

confident there are a lot of

elliptical issues on which Paris and

Berlin can closely co-operate and it

comes to the future of Europe. --

political issues. Cooperation in

defence and security, strengthening

the EU's external borders,

strengthening the coastguard, this

cooperation on the fight against

terrorism, and also, we agree that

if we want to keep our joint

currency, the euro, sustainable, we

will have to strengthen the economic

and monetary union, and we are ready

to discuss many of the French

proposals, and I would also say that

we have a lot of things in common.

Where I am of a different opinion

and Emmanuel Macron, I do not think

it is wise to create new

institutions, that means a eurozone

government and in Parliament. We

should use the existing institutions

we have.

Hang on... Hang on a

minute. If you are not prepared to

buy Macron's point about I think

what the experts call variable

geometry, and that is the deeper

integration in the eurozone, then as

usual, the EU can only travel at the

pace of its lowest members. And if

we see all of the scepticism now

from eastern Europe, from Poland,

Hungary, the Czech Republic,

essentially, if you are not prepared

to expect the multitier, multispeed

Europe of Emmanuel Macron, you are

not going to get anything changed at

all.

I don't like using the term

multispeed Europe, but I would

prefer to talk about different

levels of integration, and the heads

of government of the EU 27 made this

clear at their meeting in Rome, at

the 60th anniversary of the Rome

Treaty, that this is the way to go.

Certain member states want to deepen

the European integration and we

should be able to do so when it

comes to defence and security, when

it comes to cooperation within the

Schengen area, but also within the

eurozone area. What I was trying to

point out is that John Claude Junker

was right in his state of the year

it -- state of the union speech, the

euro is not just the currency of the

eurozone, it is the currency of the

whole European Union, apart from the

UK, which is leaving, and Denmark.

So I would prefer to use existing

European institutions instead of

creating new ones like Euros in

Parliament. And as a German I also

see the necessity that we have to

develop the rescue mechanism for the

euro into the European monetary

fund. One thing is very clear. It is

not only a point from the German

Liberals but also from my party. We

will not accept demutualisation of

debts. ICA of common ground with

French President Micron and I am

sure that fringe of this and can be

combined with German pragmatism to

keep the European engine going.

Briefly, on that one point, you have

just said clearly that you will not

accept the mutualisation of debt.

That is a red line, is it? That

means there will be a severe brake

on the deep economic, monastery in

fiscal integration that Juncker and

indeed Macron envisaged. The Germans

by going to break on that, is that

clear?

This was a clear vision in

the election manifesto for the CDU

and CSU. It was also similar

position coming from the Liberal

Party. So I don't know about red

lines, but I think this is a clear

German position which our partners

in the eurozone will have to accept.

Let's talk about other issues. I

want to get onto Brexit in a moment,

but before we get to Brexit, do you

think we are not sufficiently aware

of the degree to which there is a

new set of fragmentation is inside

the European Union, which are

dividing the old Western European

members from the newer members in

the east of the union? I am thinking

of the so-called Visagrad countries,

Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic,

you could add a few more. They are

very unhappy with much of what they

hear coming from the centralised

institutions in Brussels. I think

they are beginning to feel that they

are being frozen out of the

decision-making process.

Well, a

European Union with 28 member

states, or in future with 37 member

states without the United Kingdom,

is a complicated organisation. --

27. Undoubtedly. But if you look at

the history of the EU, six member

states, nine, 12, 15, it has always

been challenging. Europe always

lives on from the willingness of the

member states to find compromises.

Yes, there are different views on

migration between the west and the

east.

Hang on. It is easy to say it

is just about migration. It is also

about you, well, not you personally,

but the Brussels is telling the

Poles that in terms of their

treatment of their judicial

re-entering constitution, they are

behaving outside the parameters of

European values. -- judiciary and

their constitution.

The EU is more

than a single market. It is a

community of values. Our joint

values our democracy, the rule of

law and other important values. And

if one country is in danger of

violating these fundamental

principles, it is not only fairer,

it is also an obligation of the

commission to investigate this

thoroughly. This is exactly what the

commission is doing according to our

joint treaties.

How would you

characterise the state of Brexit

negotiations?

Well, I still believe

that Brexit is a historic mistake,

but I have to accept the decision of

the British people and the UK

government. We are in the middle of

these negotiations. We all knew this

would not the easy. We have all

entered unchartered territory. The

clock is ticking. We will have to

concludes the negotiations on a

technical level at the end of

October 2018, so this gives us now

11 months to not only settled the

British withdrawal but also the

cornerstones of the future

relationship. Hopefully at the

European Council in December, the

heads of government will agree that

sufficient progress has been made so

we can start the second phase of the

negotiations.

You say hopefully. Do

you think that will come to pass? Do

you think the UK government has a

coherent strategy, for a start?

At the last European Council the

heads of government stated

sufficient progress had not been

made, but they also showed readiness

to prepare for a decision to be

taken in December. But it now

depends what the UK government will

deliver. I think a speech of the

Prime Minister in Florence was

important in setting the tone. The

Prime Minister made clear that the

UK will honour all its financial

obligations. What we now need is to

translate this promise into a

concrete and firm commitment to

actually settle all the financial

obligations. And if we can do this

within the next weeks, and David

Davis and Michel Barnier are working

on this, then I am positive we can

see this sufficient progress

achieved.

Yes, but they are miles

apart. In the Florence speech

Theresa May claimed she was making a

major effort at reaching out by

saying, you know, we will pay our

budget obligations through to 2021,

which amounts to 20 billion euros.

The UK government is "Giving" to

Brussels as financial settlement but

the message from Brussels is it has

to be 60 billion. So you tell me how

you bridge the gap.

I don't think it

is helpful discussing concrete sums

at this point. What we accept from

the UK...

Time is running out, Mr

McAllister. When will it be helpful

to get specific?

What we expect from

the UK is to settle all its

financial obligations with regard to

the EU budget to other European

bodies and funds and also to other

EU related facilities and investment

programmes. And once we have seen a

firm commitment of the UK government

to settle these obligations then it

makes sense to actually calculate

the concrete and mount what the

British withdrawal will cost. That's

the way we should go ahead, instead

of discussing facts and figures

which at the moment nobody can

really acknowledge.

Well, I suppose

in the end it comes down to trust

and clarity on both sides. Here is

something that a colleague of yours,

Manfred Vaber, senior Conservative

German MEP, he said there is a big

question about who the EU should

call in London on Brexit. He said,

who speaks for the British

government, Theresa May, Boris

Johnson, David Davis, he went on

about Boris Johnson, saying reading

his attacks against his own Prime

Minister's position, he talked of

quarrels, political contradictions

and he ended up saying, please, sack

Johnson, because then we might get

clear answers as to who is

responsible for the British

position. Do you share those views?

You know, I would prefer not to

comment on domestic British

politics. We will accept the UK

government as it is composed.

Theresa May is the Prime Minister.

She is in charge of the UK

government.

Yes, but the point

Manfred Weber is getting too is,

honestly, you are a significant

figure at the European Parliament,

watching this closely, do you

honestly believe Theresa May is

truly in charge right now?

She is

the Prime Minister and as long as

she is the Prime Minister she will

be treated as a Prime Minister. And

I haven't read any news that she

won't be the Prime Minister. So I

will accept the Prime Minister, the

Foreign Minister and also David

Davis, who is doing, from the

British point of view, a good job

negotiating this British withdrawal

with Michel Barnier. Let me once

again underline, we in Europe didn't

ask for this divorce. It is a

British decision to leave the

European Union. We want to make the

best out of this situation. Brexit

will never be a win-win situation.

It won't be a win lose or lose win

situation. It will be a lose lose

situation for both sides. Let's try

to make the best out of this divorce

which we didn't ask for.

OK, some

quickfire points before we finish, a

lot to get through. Catalonia, you

as chair of the European Parliament

Foreign Affairs Committee have been

watching a very closely. Simple

question for you, if the Catalans in

their regional election slated for

December 21, of course, caused by

the Madrid government, if they

clearly vote by majority for pro-

Independence parties, will you and

other senior figures at the EU at

that point recognise their right to

self-determination?

This is an

internal Spanish conflict. We have

the rule of law in Spain, we have a

strong constitution. And what the

separatists in Barcelona are doing

is unconstitutional. It is not

possible under the Spanish

Constitution to leave the state of

Spain.

But you are not a tone deaf

politician, Mr McAllister. You have

actually won elections in Germany.

You know how politics works. How do

you think it is going to look if the

people of Catalonia go to the polls

frankly forced there by an Madrid

government decision to call these

elections, and if they vote clearly

for pro- independence parties, you

are saying that vote will have no

legitimacy and the EU won't even

bother acknowledging it?

This is an

internal Spanish conflict and it

will have to be solved within the

Spanish framework. That's why I

don't understand there are calls for

a negotiation... Negotiation role of

the European Union, because neither

the separatist government in

Barcelona, nor the central

government in Madrid, have asked for

the EU to negotiate a dialogue. This

will have to be sorted out. And I am

pretty sure that if you have real

elections in Catalonia the silent

majority or of those Catalans who

are fed up with the separatist

movement will have the possibility

to actually declare their will.

Because the referendum, which took

place was illegal.

That is an

entirely different case. I grant you

we will find out on December 21 what

they vote for. My question is

posited on the notion that they

might, who knows, they might vote by

a clear majority for pro-

independence parties, and I want to

know what the EU will do then. And

you seem to me to be saying we will

hold our hands to our years, deaf to

the rights of the Catalans to

self-determination, and we will

support a government which last time

there was a vote sent in the

military police to track people from

the polling booths -- our ears. How

do you think that looks?

-- drag

people. The referendum was

unconstitutional and illegal. First

point. The second point, I know what

you're trying to get out. Why should

I answer a hypothetical question?

The third point is all member states

of the European Union including the

European Commission have been very

clear that they did not accept the

declared independence of the

separatist government in Barcelona.

Before we finish, I would like to

talk to you about transatlantic ties

as well. Donald Trump clearly

doesn't think much of the European

Union. And in particular he doesn't

think much of Angela Merkel and

Germany. He has described the trade

policy of Germany as bad, very bad.

He says he is considering putting

new tariffs and controls on German

exports of motor cars into the

United States. How would you

describe the German feeling about

Donald Trump?

The United States and

Canada are our most important

partners outside Europe. We are

democracies, we are market

economies, we are strong trade

partners and we closely co-operate

on security and and that's why I

strongly believe as a huge majority

of Germans, including the federal

government, that strong

transatlantic relations are key.

Yes, there are some new challenges

for our transatlantic relations, for

German - American relations since

President Trump was elected, but I

must say in the last months, even

though President Trump does seem

quite critical in my home country,

the German government, and the EU

Commission, is working with the US

government on a number of issues.

Hang on, I can't let you get away

with that. You seem to be ignoring

reality. The German government,

along with other EU governments,

pleaded with the Americans not to

abandon the Paris climate change

accord, Donald Trump didn't listen.

In recent weeks and months you have

pleaded with him not to end the

certification of the Iran nuclear

deal. He didn't listen to you on

that item either. How can you

convince me that Europe has any

leverage with the Trump

administration today?

Well, just

before you interrupted me, I was

about to say that, apart from a lot

of common issues we have, we do have

Some different views.

Not only

Germany has criticised the Trump

administration for abandoning the

climate agreement in Paris. We also

see very critical American moves to

end the nuclear deal with Iran. We

negotiated for years to get this

deal done, it was hard work. And I

was in Washington last year with

other members from the Foreign

Affairs Committee and the European

Parliament telling our US

counterparts that the Americans

should always take into account the

possible consequences if this deal

no longer exist.

I guess, if I may,

we are almost out of time, the fact

is Donald Trump doesn't appear to

believe that Europe counts for much,

yes?

I strongly believe that the

European Union will survive, and it

will be even stronger. Because I

strongly believe that in the 21st

century in a globalised world all

European countries are stronger and

better off together, and only

together we will get the eye level

with the United States, with China,

with India and with Russia.

We have

to and there. But David McAllister,

I thank you very much for joining me

on HARDtalk.

Thank you so much, it

was a pleasure.