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A navy spokesman says sounds picked
up by two search vessels earlier | 0:00:00 | 0:00:00 | |
did not come from the submarine. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:02 | |
They had been detected on the route
it would have taken. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:08 | |
You are up-to-date. There is more to
come on BBC News. You are watching | 0:00:08 | 0:00:15 | |
BBC News. Now it is time for
HARDtalk. | 0:00:15 | 0:00:25 | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen
Sackur. After 37 years in power, it | 0:00:25 | 0:00:31 | |
is perhaps not surprising that
Robert Mugabe cannot accept | 0:00:31 | 0:00:36 | |
Zimbabwe's new reality. But no
amount of playing for time will save | 0:00:36 | 0:00:40 | |
his presidency now. The Robert
Mugabe era is over. The question is | 0:00:40 | 0:00:45 | |
what comes next. Will it be a
continuation of the oppressive rule | 0:00:45 | 0:00:52 | |
of ZANU PF? Or will the politics of
the country open up in new and | 0:00:52 | 0:00:57 | |
unpredictable ways? My guest is Ibbo
Mandaza, a former government | 0:00:57 | 0:01:01 | |
official turned academic analyst.
Will Zimbabwe's current drama and | 0:01:01 | 0:01:07 | |
well? -- end well? Ibbo Mandaza,
welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. I | 0:01:07 | 0:01:42 | |
just refer to this compelling drama
playing out in Harare. You have | 0:01:42 | 0:01:47 | |
obviously just come from Harare in
the last few hours to talk to me. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:51 | |
Can there are only be one ending,
that Robert Mugabe will be gone | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
within days? I don't know about
days, but certainly it is the end | 0:01:55 | 0:02:01 | |
for him. Except now we have a
serious stand-off between him and | 0:02:01 | 0:02:06 | |
his party. Is it a serious
stand-off? I think it is. It is a | 0:02:06 | 0:02:13 | |
constitutional crisis. It appears to
me that Robert Mugabe seems to have | 0:02:13 | 0:02:18 | |
the upper hand on the once
additional and legal side. It is | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
quite obvious he has some of the
best legal minds around him. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:32 | |
Clearly, his speech last night had
very cogent arguments, not to | 0:02:32 | 0:02:40 | |
mention the fact that from the
outset, the military insisted that | 0:02:40 | 0:02:48 | |
it was not a coup, although it is a
coup in my view. They also insists | 0:02:48 | 0:02:53 | |
he is the head of state and the
commander-in-chief. Yes. It is very | 0:02:53 | 0:02:58 | |
hard to figure out precisely the
relationship between the senior | 0:02:58 | 0:03:02 | |
military command and Robert Mugabe.
There they all were in that bizarre | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
shot of the military chief sitting
next to Robert Lagarde they as he | 0:03:06 | 0:03:11 | |
may be address to the nation.
Sceptics think that perhaps this is | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
all being orchestrated and that army
command is quite happy for Robert | 0:03:14 | 0:03:20 | |
Mugabe to go through the impeachment
process, because it legitimises the | 0:03:20 | 0:03:26 | |
removal, it puts a veil of
constitutionality of the whole | 0:03:26 | 0:03:29 | |
thing. Do you think that is true? I
think so. But also, it appears to me | 0:03:29 | 0:03:36 | |
events leading to the coup were
sparked by fear by the generals that | 0:03:36 | 0:03:47 | |
they would be charged with treason.
And so it appears to me the first | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
act was to pre-empt the heads of
state doing what he intended to do. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:58 | |
It appears to me they did not have a
clear plan as to the outcome of the | 0:03:58 | 0:04:03 | |
intervention. They thought it would
be a few days and Robert Mugabe | 0:04:03 | 0:04:08 | |
would resign. He surprised them
clearly. They don't no what to do | 0:04:08 | 0:04:14 | |
now. Let's talk about the potential
for destabilisation, for undress, | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
for violence. -- unrest. Some people
are saying this is a fragile moment | 0:04:18 | 0:04:26 | |
for Zimbabwe. It is hard to see
where the violence would come from, | 0:04:26 | 0:04:30 | |
because the only person it seems you
with really determined to defend | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
Robert Mugabe's rights and interests
is Robert Mugabe himself. He does | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
not seem to have any street presence
supporting his claim to stay in the | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
job. There are various constraining
factors for the military, but you | 0:04:43 | 0:04:51 | |
are right there is a danger we could
have rogue elements within the | 0:04:51 | 0:04:59 | |
military, within the whole veteran
association, who would want to push, | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
as appears to be the case, Robert
Mugabe to resign, and if need be, | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
even attack is person, break into
his "Blue Roof" so called, it could | 0:05:06 | 0:05:19 | |
escalate. Let me talk about what
Chris is saying, the Head of the | 0:05:19 | 0:05:32 | |
Veterans' Association. This is a few
hours ago. We will organise a | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
sitting and we will not leave Harare
until Robert Mugabe is gone. Would | 0:05:35 | 0:05:41 | |
you worry if there is a sit-in
around the so-called Blue Roof, his | 0:05:41 | 0:05:53 | |
residence? As far as the events on
Saturday, the army did not allow the | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
crowd near the area, let alone the
Blue Roof. It is clear the military | 0:05:57 | 0:06:03 | |
are in charge of the whole process
so far, including the rally itself, | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
including directing and organising
it. The military will want to play | 0:06:07 | 0:06:13 | |
it constitutionally, legally, safe,
as far as possible, except if the | 0:06:13 | 0:06:19 | |
stand-off is extended, as is
appearing to be the case, then they | 0:06:19 | 0:06:27 | |
may resort to other means. They want
him to resign and he is refusing. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:33 | |
You have more experience inside the
government as one of the top civil | 0:06:33 | 0:06:37 | |
servant for you went into academia
and political commentary. I just | 0:06:37 | 0:06:44 | |
wonder, when we are talking about
the Constitution and the impeachment | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
process, just how important and how
durable and resilient is the | 0:06:48 | 0:06:54 | |
Zimbabwean constitution, because the
issue is that he has ridden | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
roughshod over it for many years. Is
a part of the political process to | 0:06:58 | 0:07:05 | |
stick to the Constitution? Yes,
except where it is done so | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
expediently and conveniently. In
general, there is a very high | 0:07:09 | 0:07:15 | |
disdainful constitutionalism, even
in the party itself. You can see it | 0:07:15 | 0:07:22 | |
is very messy and tidy a process.
Right now, the committee met | 0:07:22 | 0:07:30 | |
yesterday and voted to get Robert
Mugabe and everyone else out. And | 0:07:30 | 0:07:36 | |
his speech last night wanted to
render that all illegal, saying he | 0:07:36 | 0:07:41 | |
is ill in power. -- still. You have
a situation where the interpretation | 0:07:41 | 0:07:50 | |
of the Constitution is left to
expedient subscription thereof. I | 0:07:50 | 0:07:58 | |
ask you at the beginning of there
was any doubt about the outcome and | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
I was thinking about Robert Mugabe's
removal and you indicated it could | 0:08:02 | 0:08:06 | |
take longer than you think. But
Robert Mugabe is ultimately going to | 0:08:06 | 0:08:10 | |
have to go. Is there any doubt in
your mind that the successor will be | 0:08:10 | 0:08:15 | |
the vice president briefly deposed
but now back, Emmerson? Is that | 0:08:15 | 0:08:23 | |
going to be the outcome he will
succeed? If the coup succeeds, yes, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:29 | |
he will be in. If the coup and says
they intend it to end with Robert | 0:08:29 | 0:08:39 | |
Mugabe leaving, it will have been
successful. If, as appears to be | 0:08:39 | 0:08:45 | |
happening, there is a resort to
constitutional arguments and, more | 0:08:45 | 0:08:52 | |
importantly, the intervention of
South Africans, it appears that they | 0:08:52 | 0:08:57 | |
may find a solution, such as the
Governor of national unity, our | 0:08:57 | 0:09:12 | |
group the Platform for Consensus
have been saying since last year | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
when we saw this happening, a
national transitional authority, a | 0:09:15 | 0:09:21 | |
non-partisan authority of
Zimbabweans who would take charge of | 0:09:21 | 0:09:25 | |
the state for two years during which
time they would be political reform. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
But of course, that is a hard sell
from the very beginning because you | 0:09:28 | 0:09:34 | |
have contending factors, both within
ZANU PF itself in the larger polity. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:40 | |
Your message is that Emmerson taking
over would be bad for Zimbabwe? Yes. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:47 | |
That one faction in a factional
fight would be seen to be taking | 0:09:47 | 0:09:54 | |
over will be seen as a coup. As far
as I am concerned, the solution is | 0:09:54 | 0:10:01 | |
to transcend the ZANU PF faction, to
find someone within ZANU PF itself | 0:10:01 | 0:10:06 | |
who was above the factions, and it
is difficult to find such a person, | 0:10:06 | 0:10:11 | |
or a neutral factor altogether,
leading a transitional authority and | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
transitional government. But Ibbo
Mandaza, are you not part of the | 0:10:16 | 0:10:23 | |
issue? You were once a loyalist of
the Maduru faction. You have had a | 0:10:23 | 0:10:30 | |
stake in this yourself. That is why
he dislikes you, he sees you as | 0:10:30 | 0:10:35 | |
someone who has always favoured his
opponent. Well, I had a family | 0:10:35 | 0:10:42 | |
relationship with the Madurus, both
in the late husband and herself. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
And, yes, I felt as a Zimbabwean
citizen that we were shortchanged in | 0:10:46 | 0:10:59 | |
2014 when these purges began. She
was elected in 2004. She was a vice | 0:10:59 | 0:11:03 | |
president in every sense of the
word. And in 2014, the vice | 0:11:03 | 0:11:10 | |
president and others were rejected.
But my point is not so much about | 0:11:10 | 0:11:18 | |
Joyce and what happened to her, we
interviewed her on this programme | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
and frankly she does not amount to
much support these days. It is your | 0:11:22 | 0:11:27 | |
message about factionalism. It is
interesting to see how anybody in | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
Zimbabwe today could have any hope
that factionalism won't continue. It | 0:11:30 | 0:11:36 | |
will be a dominant force. Emmerson
and the head of the military are | 0:11:36 | 0:11:48 | |
clearly people who want to keep our
closely in the hands of those, you | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
know, one could perhaps say old
cronies of Robert Mugabe are going | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
all the way back in ZANU PF. It is
hard to see how that will not | 0:11:56 | 0:12:00 | |
happen. Is you're looking for a
solution mediate that difference, | 0:12:00 | 0:12:06 | |
that is where some of us come in as
citizens. -- if. In retrospect, in | 0:12:06 | 0:12:16 | |
hindsight, it is clear, as you are
correct, in your characterisation, | 0:12:16 | 0:12:21 | |
that the military has always been
central right from the ceasefire in | 0:12:21 | 0:12:35 | |
1980 with Maduru and on and on. It
is true the military has been | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
central. Some of us as analysts have
been confused and lost the plot | 0:12:39 | 0:12:44 | |
thinking he took control of the
military. Clearly he did not. This | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
is becoming self-evident. Let me
quote you. It is interesting what | 0:12:48 | 0:12:56 | |
you are saying. The top branch of
the military have been extremely | 0:12:56 | 0:13:00 | |
influential. Let's not forget that
Emmerson going way back was Minister | 0:13:00 | 0:13:05 | |
of State security and ran the
intelligence operations as part of | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
his ministerial duties. He
campaigned. He has a long record. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:15 | |
And this is what one Western
diplomat said, if he takes over, | 0:13:15 | 0:13:22 | |
this is far from being a brave new
dawn for Zimbabwe it. He is cut from | 0:13:22 | 0:13:27 | |
the same cloth as Mugabe. Would you
agree with that? Clearly, yes. His | 0:13:27 | 0:13:37 | |
base at the moment is the military.
He is the most powerful person at | 0:13:37 | 0:13:42 | |
the moment. And really, it appears
to be that the military wanted a | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
civilian face. And he has been
chosen. It is difficult to make a | 0:13:46 | 0:13:56 | |
distinction between the Mugabe
regime and the era he had and | 0:13:56 | 0:14:05 | |
Emmerson and the military. They are
one and the same. This is a | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
factional fight within ZANU PF
itself. Which party is completed | 0:14:08 | 0:14:13 | |
with the state, really. Going back
to instability, I want to quote to | 0:14:13 | 0:14:17 | |
you one other person who has been
out on the streets, Linda, she is an | 0:14:17 | 0:14:32 | |
activist, founder of the Zimbabwean
Women In Politics, she said she has | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
waited all her life for Mugabe to
stand down, but now she is worried | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
about what happens next. The
military is stepping in to resolve | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
the factional fight and it has
nothing to do with reforming the | 0:14:42 | 0:14:46 | |
country. You seem to be echoing that
very bleak sentiment. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:52 | |
S | 0:14:52 | 0:14:57 | |
with those sentiments. I agree
entirely. But we have to be | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
realistic, we have to be political
and take into account the reality | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
and see how we can work out of it to
a more positive scenario. To be | 0:15:04 | 0:15:09 | |
specific, what are you going to do?
Well, it is not me. What I will do, | 0:15:09 | 0:15:14 | |
it is a question of, asked trying to
-- asked trying to leverage on the | 0:15:14 | 0:15:20 | |
process, on the intervention, and
the need to mediate... You keep | 0:15:20 | 0:15:27 | |
talking about SADAC, we know the
South African government has taken a | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
mild position, asking everybody to
please focus on following the | 0:15:31 | 0:15:36 | |
Zimbabwean con situation. I can
quote you the president of Zambia, | 0:15:36 | 0:15:39 | |
Edgar Lungu, who has actually said
that in his view, the military | 0:15:39 | 0:15:45 | |
takeover reflects intervention and
meddling by western countries. He | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
says Westerners are trying to
spearhead regime change, not just in | 0:15:48 | 0:15:52 | |
Zimbabwe, but in Zambia, South
Africa and Malawi as well, and we | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
won't let it happen. So I'm not sure
that African neighbours are of a | 0:15:56 | 0:16:02 | |
mind to push the reform agenda. It
doesn't sound as though they are. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:06 | |
Some of them sound like they are
quite tempted to defend Mugabe. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
Precisely. I think basically, a
successful cooing Zimbabwe would | 0:16:09 | 0:16:16 | |
send the wrong message across the
region. -- coup in. The differences | 0:16:16 | 0:16:22 | |
between the regimes in the region
are those of degree, rather than | 0:16:22 | 0:16:26 | |
kind. You are talking about SADC,
SADC is normally lame but I think | 0:16:26 | 0:16:31 | |
SADC has never been faced except for
Lzutu with a similar situation to | 0:16:31 | 0:16:37 | |
this. It will be interesting to see
what SADC does tomorrow. I agree | 0:16:37 | 0:16:41 | |
this will be based on self-interest
in parts of SADC and the South | 0:16:41 | 0:16:45 | |
African state, rather than any
concentration such as that which | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
Linda was referring to. What about
the international community more | 0:16:49 | 0:16:55 | |
widely? I am intrigued by the notion
which I have read in some quarters | 0:16:55 | 0:17:01 | |
which says that actually, the key
player in this is not any western | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
country, the United States anybody
else. It is China. There is talk of | 0:17:04 | 0:17:08 | |
a key meeting involving Mr Mnangagwa
and Mr Chiwenga, the head of the | 0:17:08 | 0:17:13 | |
military, actually in Beijing. And
that the Chinese signed off on the | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
move against Mugabe because China of
course has vast economic interest in | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
Zimbabwe. Is China a big player, do
you think? Yes, but I also know | 0:17:21 | 0:17:28 | |
China as one who tries not to
interfere in internal politics, | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
except in its own neighbourhood. So
I think that is mere speculation. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:37 | |
There is no evidence to that effect.
Nor is there evidence that western | 0:17:37 | 0:17:42 | |
countries have been directly
involved. There has always been | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
speculation, of course, unconfirmed,
that Emmerson Mnangagwa and in this | 0:17:45 | 0:17:52 | |
case, this military coup, would have
the support of the British or the | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
dish intelligence services. Again,
that is speculation. So what's next, | 0:17:56 | 0:18:02 | |
in your view? I imagine when we stop
talking you will be going very soon | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
back home to Harare, and you are
somebody who constantly speaks out | 0:18:06 | 0:18:13 | |
for fundamental transformation in
Zimbabwe, getting away from what you | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
call the factionalism, opening up of
six, bringing in a new generation, | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
making the country more genuinely
free and democratic. -- opening up | 0:18:20 | 0:18:24 | |
politics. How on earth, given the
nature of our conversation, do you | 0:18:24 | 0:18:29 | |
believe you can play a role in that
happening? Well, I am grateful that | 0:18:29 | 0:18:34 | |
you give us the opportunity of this
important interview with a very | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
influential programme like
HARDtalk... Well, that is very | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
flattering, but nonetheless, it is
just words. Long after you leave the | 0:18:42 | 0:18:46 | |
studio you have to go home and
figure out how to change the | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
situation on the ground. Yes, I
cannot do it alone. We're working | 0:18:49 | 0:18:53 | |
many other people. I made reference
to the PCC, the Platform for | 0:18:53 | 0:18:59 | |
Concerned Citizens. We have
submitted a public document to be | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
SADC Secretariat and to be Troika.
We did that through the South | 0:19:02 | 0:19:08 | |
African government this afternoon.
So there are many efforts at home. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:15 | |
There is representation by the
churches. There is a prominent | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
clergyman who has been involved in
the negotiations between Mugabe's | 0:19:18 | 0:19:24 | |
residence and the military had
offers. So there is a lot of stuff | 0:19:24 | 0:19:30 | |
happening on the ground but we're
hoping that the SADC intervention, | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
but also the international
community, I know that the western | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
met yesterday to discuss the
Zimbabwe situation, and I also know | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
that they are recommending a
government of national humidity. -- | 0:19:40 | 0:19:46 | |
western ambassadors met yesterday.
Which involves everybody, the other | 0:19:46 | 0:19:51 | |
political parties as well. I think
they were all shocked yesterday with | 0:19:51 | 0:19:55 | |
the statements which suggested that
this was an internal issue of | 0:19:55 | 0:19:59 | |
ZANU-PF. I think the solution is to
have them transcend the ZANU-PF | 0:19:59 | 0:20:09 | |
factionalism and have a national
dialogue and national process which | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
includes everybody, at least as a
transitional authority, towards | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
elections one or two years hence.
That is interesting. Yet a signal | 0:20:15 | 0:20:23 | |
failure of you to mention Mr Changi
Wright and the Movement for | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
Democratic Change, what has long
been the leading opposition party, | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
suggests to me that you do not
really feel they could be serious | 0:20:30 | 0:20:34 | |
agents of change. -- Mr Tsvangirai.
Maybe I am misleading you. Do you | 0:20:34 | 0:20:40 | |
think Mr Tsvangirai has an important
role to play? On the contrary, I | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
think all parties must be involved,
including Morgan Tsvangirai. You | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
cannot ignore Morgan Tsvangirai in
any process in Zimbabwe, not least | 0:20:48 | 0:20:51 | |
because he was shortchanged in 2008.
It is common knowledge now that | 0:20:51 | 0:20:56 | |
Morgan Tsvangirai won the election
in 2008. And it was this time Mr | 0:20:56 | 0:20:59 | |
Mnangagwa and General Chiwenga who
took over, and one would say it was | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
a coup actually, in 2008, in the
form of the manipulation of the | 0:21:04 | 0:21:10 | |
results, the subsequent run-off, and
how Mr Mugabe stayed in power. So | 0:21:10 | 0:21:19 | |
Morgan Tsvangirai can not be
ignored, not at all, either as a | 0:21:19 | 0:21:22 | |
person or in terms of his party. We
have talked really politics in this | 0:21:22 | 0:21:28 | |
interview. Let's end by thinking
about something else, just as. Do | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
you think there is any possibility
that Robert Mugabe and people very | 0:21:32 | 0:21:37 | |
close to him might be brought to
face justice for some of the things | 0:21:37 | 0:21:42 | |
that happens under his command? His
rule of Zimbabwe? I am thinking in | 0:21:42 | 0:21:49 | |
particular of the mass killings that
we know happens in the early 1980s. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:55 | |
Is justice part of this, or not?
Well, one would hope for some kind | 0:21:55 | 0:22:02 | |
of truth and reconciliation such as
we have in South Africa. But if it | 0:22:02 | 0:22:08 | |
were to be revenge, that would
escalate things out of hand. The | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
human rights factor must be taken
into account. Yes, Mugabe, and those | 0:22:11 | 0:22:18 | |
persons, Mnangagwa and Chiwenga have
much to answer for, for the violence | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
over the last 30 years, and to
periods which were punctuated by | 0:22:24 | 0:22:28 | |
violence, not only them, but there
massacre of the earlier era which | 0:22:28 | 0:22:34 | |
remained save them a shot at
history. But also subsequent | 0:22:34 | 0:22:40 | |
killings at election time. In 2008
some 200 people perished. Yes, there | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
will need to be a taking account of
all that, and one might even suggest | 0:22:44 | 0:22:51 | |
we need to go back to be beginning
of the struggle, where there were | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
many killings among ourselves, as
Zimbabweans. I think a truth and | 0:22:56 | 0:23:01 | |
reconciliation commission is
something that might help to close | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
the chapter on this sordid history
of hours. A final thought, before we | 0:23:04 | 0:23:09 | |
end. I was very struck by the joyous
scenes, frankly, which I saw from | 0:23:09 | 0:23:15 | |
Harare and the mass demonstrations,
the people out on the streets on | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
Saturday at the weekend in your
capital city. Are you feeling full | 0:23:19 | 0:23:22 | |
of optimism, positivity, and maybe
even some joy at the thought of | 0:23:22 | 0:23:28 | |
Robert Mugabe's" right now? Or are
you actually feeling somewhat | 0:23:28 | 0:23:33 | |
alarmed and curvaceous about the
future of your country? -- alarmed | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
and trepidation as -- trepidatious.
They did so through the four days. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:48 | |
Prior to that the military were
acting on their own. There was not | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
the conventional mass reception of
the coup which you have seen in | 0:23:52 | 0:24:01 | |
other parts of Africa. I think
people are beginning to sober up and | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
realise there is something at the
heart of this which has to do with | 0:24:05 | 0:24:09 | |
the manner in which the system has
been run for the last two decades at | 0:24:09 | 0:24:13 | |
least. Ibbo Mandaza, it is a
sobering thought to end on. Thank | 0:24:13 | 0:24:17 | |
you for joining me on HARDtalk from
Johannesburg. Thank you very much, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
Stephen. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 |