Baz Luhrmann - Director HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

There are some film directors

who strip things down,

shun artifice and worship

at the altar of realism.

My guest sees filmmaking

through a very different lens.

He made his directorial name

with a wildly entertaining debut

movie called Strictly Ballroom,

which was theatrical,

sentimental and sweet.

Since then he has continued to make

larger than life films based

on epic stories.

How did a boy from the Australian

backwoods get to make his celluloid

dreams come true?

Baz Luhrmann, welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm very happy to be here, Stephen.

I want to start this interview

in Herons Creek, this tiny little

place north of Sydney,

where you grew up.

It was a long way

from anywhere, really.

How come you, there, developed this

incredibly vivid artistic

imagination?

Mmm, you know, some point

midway through my journey I

started to get quite self-conscious

about...

And you do when you're young and

you're trying to be someone and be

creative and I gave up

on the self-consciousness

of going too deep into the who I am

and tried to work that out

just by doing.

Having said that...

LAUGH. How do

I keep these answers short,

because of never given

the short answer in my life?

Having said that, it

never seemed exceptional,

strange or unusual to me.

I always imagined,

when I was in that tiny little

island, which was really a gas

station and a restaurant and we had

a farm down the road...

And your father ran the gas station?

My father ran the gas station

but what was crazy about it was that

that was obsessed that the isolation

would not keep us isolated so we had

so many interesting people

come and live with us.

You know, painters, and he sort

of had this idea that we would be

the Renaissance

players of Herons Creek.

Was he an Australian who felt out

of tune with Australia?

Because, my perhaps stereotypical

cliches notion of the Australia

of your youth, particularly, you

know, in the nonmetropolitan areas,

would have been about a very macho

culture, pretty much preoccupied

with sports and maybe,

for the men, beer.

And yet, you gravitated to things

including cinema and dance

and a whole bunch of other stuff

that were nothing to do

with that stuff.

First of all the stereotype, right,

because I think you're probably

somewhat on point but I would

also proffer that one

of the idiosyncratic

qualities about Australia,

which is a tremendous thing,

is what I would call flashes

of lightning culture.

Meaning, you might look

at Sydney and go, well,

what a generic bunch

of buildings and then suddenly,

the Sydney Opera House.

You know.

And you might go, well, there it is,

isolated edge of the world but along

comes a Gough Whitlam and our

forebarers who say we must

have a drama school,

we must have a film school.

This is in the 70s and we,

the government, will fund it.

And had they not done that,

that extreme action,

I would not be sitting here.

All those well-known storytellers

that you know wouldn't exist.

So let's go back to my father.

He was all those things.

I mean, he was in the Vietnam War,

he was the equivalent of a kind

of Navy seal, that was his job.

He was really disciplined.

We really pushed us.

He was such an...

I now realise it was

an extraordinary existence

but he was also a very...

He was a romantic, I think.

So I suppose when...

I'm going to fast forward a little

bit, you got into acting,

you went to Sydney, got into lots

of different creative stuff...

I was ready doing it.

I was making films.

I was always doing it.

So it was in you from

a very young age...

And I was doing ballroom dancing

and ballroom dancing was a kind

of for me working-class

escape into the theatre.

I mean, you dressed up in costume,

you perform, you travelled miles,

you got very wrapped

up with your partner.

I mean, it was showbiz.

And if you don't mind me saying,

and I don't mean this in any... I

don't.

It's camp, to a certain

extent.

Ballroom dancing is camp? Let me

think about that. I don't know.

It's camp. I wonder if that

appealled to you too, the gender

fluidity, as we would now say.

One thing at a time, I think. Let's

define "camp", meaning like Oscar

Wilde once said, and he probably

didn't, maybe it was set about him,

but that camp is dealing

with something quite serious

but in a very silly offhanded way

and the idea of using silly

or theatrical or cue the petal drop,

as a device to effect an audience

so that you are dealing

with something quite serious

and emotional or a big idea,

that mechanism, I guess is inherent

in me and what is so odd is that

when I started exploring that,

I mean, I went to drama school

and did Artaud and Brecht

and Minimalism but when I started

to be honest with my own gestures

and that came into my way

of expressing myself,

what is so odd about it is that now

we live in a world where that

particular sensibility,

whether it is in fashion,

cinema, music it's kind of de

rigueur.

It is hugely popular.

Hugely popular.

I tell you what, for people

who haven't seen Strictly Ballroom,

let's have a clip.

This was your first movie?

It was

the first day of shooting. We said

to have done at an an hour but it

took three.

It's kind of an outrageous success

making your first move you make

something that not only breaks

the bounds of Australian cinema

but gets shown at international

awards, in Cannes, it becomes

big in America.

It is just a massive

international hit.

That sounds great but we have not

got time to go onto the real story

but the real story begins

with making the film,

committing at some point to the idea

that had make cinematic language

that somehow reflect did

what it was as a play.

I devised that as a play.

You had written it as a play.

I devised it with a group

of actors I was working

with at the National Institute

of Dramatic Art where

we were experimenting

with you make place and I took

a subject of a new, ballroom

dancing, and I also took the hero

powerful myths and I was splicing

mythology, the ugly duckling myth,

and then it was political.

We took it to a drama school

in Czechoslovakia during glasnost

against all the Soviet State

theatres, thinking this will be

a ridiculous but, at some point,

in that production, it was a bit

more Brechtian, we had tapes

of like Ronald Reagan

and Maggie Thatcher in it

and so forth so it did

have an underlying political deal...

Again, this is important we talk

about other movies and the way

you develop them.

One message in the movie

is about breaking the rules,

not being a conformist.

The strain dance commission

had its own rules and the girl

in the movie says no,

I want to do something different

and persuades the boy to sign up

to just doing things differently,

breaking the rules, being yourself.

Correct.

And, hilariously, you could apply

that undercarriage of that story

to a popular revolution.

I mean, overthrowing the incumbent

generation and leaders to say

-- who say there is only one

way to cha-cha-cha.

I've got the rulebook,

I will give you the tips,

I will let you know whether your

right or not and then,

the youth said no, we can set aside

the rulebook and we going to go

up against it.

And then you meet another youth that

says that and then you go

on and then it is

a popular revolution.

Sounds heavy but that's

where we come in from.

What interesting is,

you say it sounds heavy,

it sounds fascinating

but what it doesn't sound like,

to some people, I think,

is a Baz Luhrmann movie

because they think you have become

so associated with the sort of over

the top, grandiose, epic

scale and at the glitz

and the glamour and whatnot.

Sure.

Do you feel that a lot

of people haven't taken your

movies seriously enough?

Yes, sure.

And certainly critically

but what's so strange -

cause I am quite old now, Stephen -

I have seen the miracle of like one

of the great critics,

Owen Leiberman, a huge critic

in the States who absolutely...

Slayed Moulin rouge.

You say, here we go again.

And there was a time

when you could take the reviews

from strictly ballroom and apply

them to pretty much maligned

and so forth.

But I have never seen this happen

before, in his book,

he rewrote his review ten years

later and has a beat in his book

and are actually met him

and I was really...

Of course, you're happy that...

He decided ten years on that

actually he had missed the point?

His language was, there was a method

to the madness and I could see that,

actually, this wasn't just kind

of camp for the sake of it

but it was employed in the pursuit

of a slightly bigger idea.

But I suppose my question would then

be, d oyou ever reflect and think,

you know, many are got a little bit

seduced by the fact that Hollywood

was flinging money at me so that

by the time you made

The Great Gatsby, I don't

know how much that cost

will probably $100 million?

Yes, around that.

Roughly.

Give or take 10 million.

I'm not good with numbers.

Check with the studios.

But you see where I'm going.

You are spending more and more

money, he will use the biggest stars

from Hollywood to make an enormous

splash and taking years to make

these movies and maybe he got a bit

overwhelmed by the money,

the glitz, the glamour

and the power?

Maybe.

Sounds like that but

that didn't happen.

I mean, in no way does someone come

at you, nobody in Hollywood comes

to you and says, you know

that 100-year-old book,

The Great Gatsby,

you know that period piece,

they say the opposite.

When I made strictly ballroom,

and that I wanted to do a modern day

Shakespeare, and I was in an overall

deal with Fox, and their like,

cut you just do strictly

ballroom to, more of that?

And then when I did Moulin Rouge,

why would she want to do the Gatsby.

So there is no, hey,

he's $100 million, go and it Gatsby,

there's cajoling, convincing,

convincing yourself,

convincing others.

Leonardo being a great

partner in that process,

Toby being a great

partner in that process.

DiCaprio and Maguire, we should say.

We're talking A-list

Hollywood people.

But also artists that want to make

sure they're making something

different and, let me just say,

all that stuff you identified,

I mean, Gatsby, rightly,

whether you like it or you don't,

whether I made the right

choices or not, it's a very

quite internal narration.

About the very noisy time.

About a very brightly coloured,

noisy time so I, rightly

or wrongly, exploited that.

Let's have a look at one of the

memorable scenes from the great C.

I cannot find anyone who knows

anything real about Mr Gatsby.

Well, I don't care.

He gives large parties

and I like large parties,

they're so intimate.

Small parties, there

isn't any privacy.

But if that's true,

what's all this for?

That, idea fellow, is the question.

Are you ready?

As I am watching that,

I'm actually thinking about you,

the director, and it seems to me,

there is something extraordinary

about the Hollywood director.

The amount of resource

that you can call upon,

the hundreds of actors and extras,

the vast stage sets.

There is a power to being

a director that interests me.

Do you think there is something

potentially difficult,

maybe even potentially dangerous,

about the power that comes

with being a Hollywood?

Look, I think we are living

in a world where the subject

of power and the danger

of power and the corruption

that comes with...

I didn't write that fantastic

light about parties,

I wish I did.

And I didn't write absolute

power corrupts absolutely

but it is certainly

topical right now.

When you do what I do,

the responsibility of power

is absolutely forefront

in your mind.

I mean, you think that is the Friday

night dinner at Baz's

because that is how everyone

thinks that it how I live.

I am interested in the answer

you just gave because you have

alluded to what we have

seen in Hollywood.

In the wake of what we have learnt,

people are willing to avoid violent

crime to line their own pockets.

This would be hardly one sinking is

about. If thou that there are some

in very sick at the heart of

Hollywood.

I didn't. Harvey had

Strictly Ballroom. At the start, I

had a powerplay issue with him over

the way he handled Strictly

Ballroom. I think where you are

going is this: I do think, when I am

directing, the big question marks in

the entrance of the entertainment

world, but it is not just

entertainment, we are seeing it

everywhere, everywhere Paller said.

What I am very focused on is that

when you try to make something...

Who is an attractive? You have your

attractions. But in the space, the

fear and liberty of

attractions. But in the space, the

fear and liberty of performers, the

power that you have, but also your

job is to remove that fear. It is

called playacting. They are players.

You are meant to help them be

playful. Yes, work, but to take away

their fear and to play. If, in any

way, you are muddying the waters

with your own politics or own sexual

desire, and all that, then you are

corrupting the art itself. And

obviously it is wrong. I mean, it

is, you know, a profound misuse of

power, and I think we are seeing is

is probably something, let me jump

right in there and say I think it is

bigger than that. I think we are

sitting in a moment where the

tectonic plates of history a squeeze

on like this, and the old period,

and they don't just mean old guys,

but I mean the world has its nails

and is trying to claw things back to

make things the way they are. To

quote Gatsby, you cannot repeat the

fast. The fact the past. I think

there is an old school of thought...

Are you part of that?

Pfft, no!

Were

you changing the way you were?

I can

honestly tell you that when I am in

the room, I am so worried about

making it work. I think is my job to

take on everybody elsefear. How I

feel about somebody when I am

anonymous and Bittermann Street, I

just can't feel like that about a

cast and crew member member. I am

just too completely responsive to

make sure that everyone does their

best. -- meet them on the street.

You just talk about our age group

and ageing, and a new generation of

people looking to do things in

different ways. Just one quick

question about your future, and your

intent. You did make one Netflix

kind of box set style big budget

television series, and it didn't get

recommissioned. Did you see yourself

moving more into television? That is

where a lot of the money and

creativity is, but in your mind, are

you a movie maker?

We could have

done another season.

It cost an

awful lot of money, though. Too yes.

That reason, it required me to be at

the centre of it.

Contractually, I

had a ready-made arrangements

whereby I would creativity some

Wales.

I just wondered whether you

needed a big screen, not just the

small screen. -- somewhere else.

I

don't see myself as a film maker,

television maker, music maker, I

have worked at a hotel, we have made

stuff. Ideas and storytelling.

Impacting on culture. There are 72nd

record. It is not like arming - this

is sadly that might sound arrogant,

but we need something.

I want to

bring you do this because it raises

a lot of interesting issues to be

about you as a person, and that is

your movie, Australia, because it is

unusual for a director to make a

movie so clearly about where he is

from, and then entered Australia,

and it is epic and weeds are lot of

Australia's recent history. It did

pretty well, but some critics like

that and some did not like it at

all. It was a very personal to you?

Totally.

What was that? A love

letter to a straighter?

Was a crazy?

-- to Australia. None of my films in

my view our complete. None of them

are what I imagine to be. I just get

on to a point where I think they are

working there. It is a child.

Are

you telling me was completely

finished?

I don't think any of them

are finished. There is an old saying

that they are not finished, they

take them away. But let's come back

to wager that. Absolutely, we have

always lived around the world.

Australians are great travellers. I

wanted to make sure there was an

early period when my two children

were connected to our homeland.

That, and I also have, yes, a great

love of my homeland. And it probably

was, at an over was a love letter,

but it was definitely a way of

getting into the myth, but also the

facts. One of the things about the

strait, by the way, and whether this

is good or not, this is the biggest

I have ever had in Europe. It was

number one for five weeks in Spain.

And I was a surprise, even me. It

had a different light in the US can

it went nowhere.

It has things in

it, including the massive injustice

done to the Aboriginal Peoples of

Australia.

Yes, and might say, and I

have never said this, and I feel I

should, I remembered Germaine Greer,

and she spoke - I mean, I never push

back on staff, but of course, we did

the research, and of course we lived

it. And everything - there is a

justifiable reference to everything

in a movie. And when the press and

Jermaine Grey came out and attacked

an actual Stolen Generation

academic, Aboriginal academic, I

just thought, like, you know, I will

let time and so that. -- Germaine

Greer. But nothing we do we research

lightly.

But it good of my head was

that the arc of your career to you

away from Australia to the United

States, where you spend most of your

time. But in a funny way, you could

make an argument that Australia is

moving towards you. I don't mean

geographically - commedia,

Australia.

-- I don't mean

geographically. Come out here,

Australia.

But recently we have seen

the vote on gay marriage. Do you see

your Australia becoming more

tolerant and open?

First of all, for

the first time I have not been back

in my own country for maybe 18

months or longer. I go back at

Christmas. It is very important. I

think flashes of lightning. The

country has always had tremendous

the openhearted vision, but it also

pulls it back into a sort of

conservatism and jostles between the

two things. So I got great... I am

not in a position to speak with

great information. I go back to

reconnect. But I think Australia and

Australians, they really believe in

a fair go, and they are really

openhearted. And I am looking

forward to be energised by the

positive uplift.

They last month a

question, a lot of people, critics,

feel that your first movie was your

best. Do you think your best movie

is yet to be made?

I think probably

Mick Jagger has the same problem

with satisfaction. It is like, you

know, and I - I think, to as your

question, and I am not good at

staying on track - was in my movies,

right? There is a question is you

have to believe it. Otherwise, don't

do it. Sometimes I think, oh, you

know, but recently I've been

thinking I would like to do at least

one more. And see if I could make it

better.

A great way to end. Baz

Luhrmann, thank you for being on

HARDtalk I really enjoyed it. Thanks

very much.