Jorge Toledo - Secretary of State for the EU, Spain HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it is time for

HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

When the Spanish Government threw

out the regional administration

in Catalonia, imposed direct rule

from Madrid and called regional

elections, it took

a calculated risk.

Next month we'll see

whether it was well advised.

If Catalans give a clear majority

to pro-independence parties,

Spain - and the European Union -

will be facing a protracted crisis.

My guest is Spain's Minister for EU

Affairs, Jorge Toledo.

Can Madrid outmanoeuvre

the secessionists?

THEME MUSIC

Jorge Toledo, in Madrid,

welcome to HARdtalk.

Thank you very much.

You presumably want the forces

of unity, the political parties

backing the integrity of Spain

as it currently exists,

you want them to win, don't you?

Well, I do.

But that is by personal opinion

but that is not up to me.

There is a regional election,

this is is democracy.

The Catalan people will

in a perfectly legal,

perfectly organised,

monitored election, chose

as they wish.

Indeed, but my point is this,

if you want the forces supporting

unity to win, why don't you make it

a little bit easier for those

parties by acknowledging the grave

mistakes that Madrid made

in the run-up to and on the day

of the Catalan referendum

on independence?

Surely that would help,

if you actually said,

you know what?

We did make some terrible errors?

Well, I do not need anybody...

I do not need to

acknowledge any mistakes.

We all make mistakes but the biggest

mistake here was to revoke by simple

majority of the regional government,

on the 6th and 7th of September,

jumping over every legality,

even their own legality,

they revoked the basis

of the rights and freedom

of all Catalans in Catalonia.

That was the biggest mistake.

So let me criticise the mistakes,

the great mistakes and the great

damage they have done to Catalonia,

economically, social fracture.

The other day we lost a very good

candidate to Barcelona

because of this.

Listen, this is the big issue.

The damage that the independentist

government and the independentist

forces have done to Catalonia

and this is going to be...

We are going to recover from this

because the first you need

is legal certainty.

2700 companies have left

Catalonia because of this.

We want them to go back and for

that they need legal certainty.

When you revoke every legality,

when you do not even

follow your own legality,

nobody wants to go to your place

so let's restore legality and then

we can build together.

If I may interrupt you for just

a second, I asked you for any

acknowledgement of your mistake.

Don't you worry, we will talk

to the Catalan regional government,

as it was, about the things

they did but I need to press

the you for things you did.

For example, was it wise

for you to use such powerful

and polarising rhetoric,

when you they called the referendum

that they held in Catalonia -

and I'm quoting you directly -

"an evil illegal act".

Why on earth did you call it evil?

These are just civilians

conducting a vote.

No, it wasn't civilians

conducting a vote.

It was a government jumping over

every, even their own regional law,

the basis of legitimacy,

breaking their own law,

to approve convening a referendum

which they knew was illegal.

That is evil.

That is not democracy.

You cannot jump over your

own democratic laws...

Evil?

..you change it by a simple

majority, that's evil.

OK, evil, it's illegal.

Illegal in a democratic world.

"Evil" is a word that indicates

something about the mindset

that the government

in Madrid seems to have.

Another thing thing that

indicates your mindset is sending

in security forces to stop peaceable

men and women from voting,

dragging them by their

hair, beating them up.

Human rights groups reporting

that there were dozens of people

who had injuries as a result.

Again, if you were to say sorry

for that, it might change

the political atmosphere

in the run-up to the December 21st

vote.

Will you do that?

Listen, I am sorry and we all regret

that there were people injured.

As far as we know, there

were two people in hospital,

one with a heart attack,

and we have unchecked reports

about being injured but two people

in hospital and that's regrettable

but the police forces

were sent there by a judge,

a Catalan judge by the way,

to enforce a court order.

They used force and there were -

in about 2,200,000 people -

there were two people in hospital.

That is regretful.

I am sorry for that,

I'm sorry for the people

who got injured but...

It would help if you were truthful

about the real extent

of the injuries.

For example, the Hague Centre

for Strategic Studies did a survey

of what happened and they found that

hundreds of voters had been injured

on polling days and they concluded

with these words, "the use of force

displayed by the Spanish

police has no place

in an established democracy".

The use of force was done under

court orders in the face

of resistance and violent

and violent attacks

against the police.

They were 45 policemen injured.

So in 2,200,000 there

were two people in hospital,

one with a heart attack.

It is regretful.

But I do not agree with

what The Hague conference

or organisation says.

We have to back up police

forces when they act

following a court order.

I am sorry.

We have to do that in Spain,

in the UK, in any democratic

country.

Another question concerning

the atmosphere in the run-up to this

December vote, it concerned the fate

of the several members of the former

regional administration

who are languishing in Spanish jails

right now, including,

of course, Oriol Junqueras,

the former vice president

of the regional government.

He has described the situation

inside his prison, he says,

"communication with the outside

world is very limited,

we can only talk for 50 minutes

each week on the phone.

I have not yet seen my children".

You're a democrat, you live

in Spain, how do you feel

about locking up, again, I say it,

civilian politicians

who are pursuing their political

agenda with an elected mandate

from their voters and you lock them

up in these conditions?

How do you as a Democrat

feel about that?

I tell you how I feel about that.

I have my own opinion.

You say "you locked them up".

No, it is a judge who has locked

them up, as you say,

they have put them in provisional

prison for committing crimes,

because they are accused

of committing serious crimes.

It is the judge in a democratic

country like Spain or the UK

who puts people in jail,

especially provisionally.

These people are accused of serious

crimes and these people

have the same rights, I suppose,

as any person who is in jail.

I do not think they can complain

of having worse or better treatment

than anybody else, in fact,

I think they are in one of the most

modern prisons in Spain,

and they have many facilities

so I do not agree with that...

If you are a Democrat, Mr Toledo,

doesn't it trouble you that

with the vote on December 21 looming

and Mr Junqueras and others wanting

to put themselves forward

to the public for election,

it seems very troubling

that they are still locked up.

Why do they need to be locked up,

why can't you at least give

them their freedom because they

are not convicted of anything?

Give them the freedom so at least

they can participate

in the political process?

You know, in Spain, in the UK,

the one who puts people in prison

is a judge and the one who decides

to put them out of prison

is a judge.

I could have my opinion,

it would be more comfortable

politically if they were not

in prison but this is not our call,

this is not the government's call.

In a democracy, in the UK

it is the same thing,

we cannot put these people

in prison, it would be a judge.

In fact, they have appealed

the court order that put them

in prison, it will be reviewed

by the Supreme Court

and the Supreme Court will decide

probably in the next few days

so we'll see but the government

cannot do anything.

These people were not put in prison

because of what they think,

because they are independentist,

Mr Junqueras has been

and independentist all his life,

he has been accused

of committing crimes.

He can defend himself

with all the guarantees and,

if proven guilty, he will go or not

to jail depending on what the judge

says not depending on what

the government says.

That's very important.

Let's get to the head of government,

Mr Rajoy, I wonder what his message

is to the people of Catalonia today,

what is he offering Catalans

in terms of a response

to the political situation

in the region which suggests Madrid

is listening and Madrid is prepared

to offer something to the people

of the region to give them more

power, a sense that Madrid

is prepared to meet them at least

halfway in their desire for more

autonomy, more regional power?

You must know that Catalonia

is probably the region with other

regions in Spain which has

the most powers...

No, no, that is not true...

That is not true, Mr Toledo,

I can't let you get away with that.

Because we know that, for example,

I can name you two regions,

right now - the Basque

region and Navarre -

they both have much more significant

tax raising and fiscal

powers than Catalonia.

You know that.

No, no, Catalonia has all the powers

which they do not have.

Anyway, Catalonia has

never had so much power

and we can discuss that.

We can discuss fiscal arrangements.

In fact, President Rajoy has invited

so many times the then-president

Puigdemont to come and discuss

in the commission, to discuss

the fiscal territorial arrangement

and they do not come.

President Rajoy has offered

to discuss 45 different complaints

that effect real life

for real people in Catalonia

and they have refused.

President Rajoy is offering first

of all to restore the legality,

to restore self-government, have

election and, with a new Catalan

government he will be open

for discussing any thing

and if they wanted change

the Constitution, we have our legal

framework, they have

to propose that in Parliament,

they have to conduct

political dialogue because,

Stephen Sackur, where do you conduct

political dialogue in a democracy?

It has to be in Parliament.

President Rajoy has always been

and always will be open to dialogue.

We have opened a commission

for discussing, if we need,

and what we need, to reform our

Constitution and that is the place

to discuss it.

Be clear about one thing, then,

neither of us knows how this

election is going to work

out on December 21st,

but if those parties clearly backing

independence win a clear majority

in the new regional government -

and the latest opinion polls I have

seen suggest the party in the lead,

right now is Mr Junqueras's party,

the gentleman I've just talked

about with his ERC party,

which is entirely committed

to independence, it looks

like the vote is going to be very

close - but if the forces

of independence win,

will you accept that that represents

a legitimate mandate for the Catalan

regional government to push

on with their quest

for secession and independents -

it will be a mandate?

No, I don't accept that.

In order to do that they will have

to go present themselves in Madrid,

at the Spanish parliament

were all Spaniards are represented

and the presentation

of all Spaniards decide

what their country is.

The fundamental thing here,

which is missing is,

why, where is it written,

not in the Spanish Constitution

or in international public law,

that a part of a country can decide

what the whole country is?

It is also personal for me.

I want to decide what my country is.

Why should anyone deprive me

from voting in the end

or from giving my

opinion of my country?

The definition of my country.

You know, we have a Constitution

that was approved by 91%

of Catalans, which is

very clear about this.

It is very clear and it says that

what the country is,

what Spain is, has to be

decided by all Spaniards.

Interesting, and I am not sensing

any movement or compromised

in your answers, but it is

interesting to note that in 2006

the constitutional agreement that

Spain signed up to did talk

of a Catalan nation.

You are now, it seems,

not prepared to recognise any notion

of self-determination

for the people of Catalonia.

I would just suggest to you that

if this vote goes the way

of the Independence parties,

you are going to have a crisis

in Spain and the European Union

will probably begin to lose patience

with the Madrid government

that is not prepared to talk

the language of compromise.

Well, that is your opinion.

It is not my opinion.

These kinds of things

can't happen in Europe,

in the European Union any more.

The European Union has a treaty.

We have all signed to this treaty.

It says that the European Union,

meaning the European institutions

and the European countries,

member states, have to respect

constitutional order

of the member states.

It would not be possible in France,

it would not be possible in Germany.

In Italy the Constitutional Court

revoked a law in some of the Italian

provinces calling for a referendum

of self-determination.

The only difference with the Catalan

government and those regional

government in Italy

is that the regional government

in Italy accepted the court ruling.

The regional government

in Catalonia didn't.

It is a question, it is not

a question of law and democracy.

What is the law in

a democratic world?

Is the expression of

democratic dialogue.

You want to change the Constitution,

come, propose it, if you have enough

support we will change it.

We will all be able to vote.

Mr Toledo, let us move on to another

issue which is very much

in your portfolio, given that

you are responsible for EU affairs.

That is the state of

the Brexit negotiations.

The British Government is very keen

to see the EU move on to the next

phase of Brexit negotiations

when the European Council

meets in December.

The British say they have done

enough on the various first phase

issues to move to the really big

deal, which is talking

about the future trade relationship.

Do you, in Spain, see

enough progress made

for you and your government to back

a move to the second phase

of the Brexit negotiations?

Well, negotiations are

under way as we talk.

And will be under way

for the next week or ten days.

I hear there is some progress.

There was not enough progress last

time we met at the European Council.

There was some positive

steps, I must say, taken

by Prime Minister May

that were acknowledged

and we in Spain acknowledge them.

We think that we need a deal

and we think we are getting closer.

But we need something more.

And the British Government knows...

Let me, let me try

to make this quick.

We don't have that much time.

I will try to make it quick.

Let us get to specifics.

Start with the money.

In brief, Theresa May

and her cabinet appeared to have

sanctioned now, offering the EU

roughly 40 billion euros

as a financial settlement

as part of the recent deal,

is that enough, yes or no?

No.

It is not that it is not enough.

We are not looking for a figure.

We are looking for a commitment

to honour past commitments.

We don't have to agree

on a figure at this stage.

We had to agree on principles

to arrive at a figure when the final

deal is made.

All right.

Next issue.

It is very pressing -

in recent days with a difficult

relationship developing

between the British Government

and the Irish government.

The Irish government says it

will veto any move to the next phase

of negotiations, unless the UK

government is entirely clear

about how it is going

to avoid a hard border

between Northern Ireland,

which of course remains part

of the United Kingdom,

and the Republic of Ireland,

which, of course, is a member state

of the European Union.

Do you feel that enough progress has

been made on that issue?

In that we back our Irish,

our Republic of Ireland friends.

I know that Prime Minister May

and the UK want the same solution,

that we have no border

between the Republic of Ireland

and Northern Ireland.

We all want the Good Friday

Agreement to survive Brexit

and we want the common travel area.

We have to find solutions.

And our Irish friends tell us

we need some more commitment.

So we will trust them there.

If I'm allowed.

The British Government is also

blaming the Irish and saying

that the Irish are playing politics

with the border issue.

You seem to be suggesting to me

that there is absolute unity among

all of the member states

of the European Union,

excluding Britain, of course,

unity and that this is not a case

of Ireland playing politics,

you all, right now, do not believe

that the UK has offered

enough on the border.

Is that what you are saying?

I was in Dublin last week.

My Irish colleagues told me

that they need some

more concrete commitment.

So I am willing to trust them there.

They know what it's all about,

I know what it's all about,

but I prefer to trust them

and Negotiator Barnier.

We have given a mandate

to Negotiator Barnier,

which is quite clear.

We trust our Irish, and Barnier,

colleagues on that.

We know that the UK is also

interested in preserving

the Good Friday agreement.

I think we can get

an agreement soon.

A final point about Brexit,

which is taking us back

to Catalonia, in a way.

The Scottish nationalist movement,

and of course they are in government

in Scotland in their government,

they are keen to hold after Brexit

a second Scottish

independence referendum.

If they win, it does look as though

there is a strong possibility

Scotland might, before too long,

be an independent nation.

If that were to be the case,

and they applied for membership

to the European Union after the UK

had exited from the European Union,

would Spain welcome Scotland

into the European Union?

Mr Sackur, there are too many

ifs in your question.

Allow me not to respond

clearly to the question.

If, if, if.

This thing about referendums

and self-determination referendums.

My personal view,

it is a never-endum.

We will respect the UK legality.

If there's a legal referendum,

we will have nothing

to say about it.

And I hope the Scottish government

has the same respect

for our constitution that we have

for their constitution.

All right, well, I think I am

reading between the lines there.

I will end with one big thought

about the European Union.

It is your portfolio.

I think it is fair to say that there

are lots of big visions around.

We had Jean-Claude Juncker outlining

a very ambitious vision for a more

integrated, united Europe,

we had Emmanuel Macron talking

about the necessity for Europe

to develop much closer financial

integration with a financial

minister, a Finance Minister.

Some beginnings of pan-European

taxation, a Defence Force.

But at the same time, there

is a massive leadership problem.

Angela Merkel is in trouble.

Your Spanish government is weak,

it has corruption scandals

as well as the Catalonia problem.

Mr Macron is not very popular.

Where is the leadership that

will make these dreams

of a powerful, integrated

EU into reality?

I tell you something,

Spain has always been a very pro-

European country, except some,

like Mr Puigdemont,

who was insulting

European Union yesterday.

We will be among the most ambitious.

We had gone through a very,

very difficult crisis,

economic crisis in Spain,

we are now growing.

We will get over this Catalan

constitutional crisis.

Legality has been restored.

We will be the leading,

the deepening of the European Union.

I can assure you of that.

We have to end there.

But Jorge Toledo, in Madrid, thank

you very much for being on HARDtalk.

Thank you very much to you.

I hope next time, if there is a next

time, it will be face-to-face.

Thank you.