Marcus Wareing - chef and restaurateur HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.

Stephen Sackur is talking

to the chef Marcus Wareing.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

Not so long ago, British food

was the laughing stock of the world

- it bland, stodgy and flavourless.

But how things have changed.

Today, the nation seems obsessed

with cooking and baking on TV

and fine dining.

My guess today is one of the new

breed of top celebrity television

chefs, Marcus Wareing. Yes, we are

now obsessed with good food, but is

that altogether healthy?

Marcus Wareing, welcome to HARDtalk.

There are an awful lot of ships in

the world, but only a very few

elite, top chefs -- shifts. What

distinguishes the very best from the

rest?

I think first of all the

mindset, it's a work ethic and I

think there is a type of sacrifice

that a top chef has and wants to

sort of drive themselves

individually and as an individual to

excel head and shoulders above

everybody else. A lot of advice that

I've ever had through the years

going through the ranks was... And

it came from my father originally,

was to stand out from the crowd and

to do that you need to do something

different.

Most of the great chefs

around the world started as

apprentices to other great chefs and

if we look at your CV, you worked

with Albert Rood, you obviously

famously worked a lot with Gordon

Ramsay, both in their different ways

great chefs. Did you acquire skills

and knowledge directly from them?

Without a doubt your travels, you

are working in kitchens and that is

the foundation as a chef. The most

important thing about trying to be a

good chef or someone who is going to

be a little bit different is working

with some of the best chefs. When

you work through all the different

kitchens, you are inspired,

energised, but also gathering

knowledge, education and discipline.

They are leaders of examples and

leaders of their industry and they

have something to offer. They may

not talk to you every day, they may

not tell you an idea or recipe, but

you have to get into their kitchens

and feed off their energy, like a

big that tree that you are sucking

everything out of -- battery. This

story while the train, you go and

train more, you go and train in a

little kitchen, put that information

on a shelf and when you become a

head chef you bring it all down and

use all of that experience.

I've

got, as it happens, your menus from

last night here at Marcus, your

flagship two Michelin star

restaurant. Therefore, looking at

this, it all looks delicious, I

notice a very big emphasis on

British produce.

Yes.

You know, from

starters of wood pigeon, Portland

crab and glazed ox tongue with

Dorset snails, true to your mains.

Third week lamb, Cumbrian veal,

grouse, all of this very British.

This who am I question, what are

your menus saying about who you are?

At my restaurants, and the way in

which industries change and Farthing

and the way we receive our produce,

-- farming and the way we receive

our produce, I look at the UK as my

local community food. Because I can

put and order in this morning from

Scotland and get it tomorrow. Things

move quickly. So local, UK, and then

I spread further afield into Europe

for different types of produce that

are better or farmed better or taste

better and we are always searching

for something really nice. But I

don't like to go too far across the

world to gather food produce.

So

this idea of food miles matters to

you?

I think so. Now in the world

winning the big F or that we aren't

purchasing to mark from all over the

world. -- I don't need to put in

certain things into this menu

because it's not really a reflection

on me as a person. I've never

trained in lots of different

cuisines, but I will never

experiment with them on my menu. So

the reflection of the menu and the

ingredients you've talked about are

about a local life from the

north-west of England, using the

produce from this country.

The

phrase a local lad from Southport,

wasn't it, with their dad who was a

market trader. It's a great story.

Does it sit uneasily with you in

anyway? That here we are, in a posh,

expensive part of London, and all

this fabulous food you are serving

comes at a price. You're tasting

menu is £120, roughly $140, your a

la carte dish I imagine a main would

be about £60, £70.

Just a bit less

than that.

These are big numbers and

out of reach for most people. For a

local lad from south port, does that

bother you?

It doesn't, because I

think it is not about Allman being

equal, it's about a matter of choice

and I think what we do offer is

choice and there are tasty menus, a

la carte menus, but there are also

very good reasonable lunch menus.

The wine, you can come to this

restaurant and spend the same amount

of money on a glass of wine than you

would on a good bar or pub. It's all

about choice. So with the thousands

of awful that we have on our menu

when you come here, there's

something for everybody. So I don't

look at it as a rich man's room,

anybody who comes to my restaurant,

you can have tapwater, a glass of

house wine and the lunch menu for

two people and you could be out of

the door for less than £100 if you

wish, but it's your choice to come

and spend the value that you want to

spend. But isn't it nice, for a

Northern line to maybe come with

your girlfriend or wife and come to

London and do something different?

-- lad. We just happen to be in the

heart of London. I sort of and am

proud to have worked my way from

there. It didn't arrive on a tray,

it was a lot of hard work.

What

about food snobbery? You have two

Michelin stars. Not many chefs

around the world do. But there is

something about this whole sort of

fetishisation of the Michelin star

which sticks in some people's

throats. Do you sometimes feel that

it is the wrong way to really judge

the quality of food in restaurants?

I don't. I think Nisha -- Michelin

are very important and relevant. I

think their history judges how

important they are. They are judging

chefs as a guide and they give you a

point of recognition and give you an

accolade. It's not something you ask

for, it is given to you. It's almost

a gift of your standards.

But it

puts you under enormous pressure.

Some chefs have started saying to

Michelin, even if they had in the

past one or two stars, they are now

saying, I don't want to be part of

your network. I don't want to be

judged by you any more. The pressure

is too constant, too immense. The

things you require of us in terms of

the level of service, the

presentation, are just actually

making as a restaurant with a want

to be.

I disagree. I completely

disagree, because I don't think it

is then putting the pressure on the

chef, it's the general public and

the expectation of the general

public. In the last ten years,

social media has become a big part.

Everybody in your restaurant now can

post their of the dinner, of the

experience they are eating. So I

think it's more than just Michelin.

Every person at your table is now a

reviewer. Exactly. Does that scare

you?

No. It's a challenge, it sets

standards, it even tells me what my

restaurant is doing when I'm not

here. You have to embrace

technology, you have to embrace it.

Even if I don't like it and do it as

well as the next chef, I do have a

team of people around me who show me

how to move forward. But if I look

down on that process, and I looked

down and Seyi Michelin delivers

pressure, then I would be a nervous

wreck. You must always turn pressure

into positive thinking and positive

energy and enjoy your job. Go back

to your roots. It is about those

ingredients.

Stop worrying about

what everyone is saying. One of

Britain's best known restaurant

reviewers rebelled against the

Michelin spirit, the sort of smart,

formal dining that it seems to

encourage. He said the guide seems

to be wholly out of touch with the

way people now actually it will stop

it is still rewarding fat,

Conservative, fussy rooms. Maybe he

meant rooms like this, that use

expensive ingredients with

ingratiating pomp to serve glossy

plutocrats. Is that Marcus?

No,

absolutely not and I don't think

fine dining is that. I think there

are lots of food writers and critics

may be that don't see the fund or

the luxury of the enjoyment in iron

dining, because it's a homage to the

chef and I think the world has

changed and I think chefs are

cooking in high-street restaurants

that have 20 seats and slaving away

in the back of a kitchen, an open

kitchen. That is as enjoyable in the

day's world as eating in a fine

dining restaurant. It's all about

what somebody wants for the occasion

and if I'm going to set up a

restaurant in this hotel, a 5-star

hotel, it is known all over the

world, there's a level of luxury

have to provide and I want to

provide.

It strikes me that as used

-- as you have become more

successful, like many top chefs

you've developed the brand and

become a TV personality, the British

MaterChef show has made you

enormously popular in this country.

You've also opened up arrest one

central London, are now you've got a

stable of three. It all means that

you are not every single lunchtime

and dinner actually in the kitchen,

here at your number one restaurant,

doing it yourself. It strikes me

that when people come here, and as

we've discussed they do pay a large

amount of money for food from the

restaurant, they expect Marcus

Wareing to be slaving away in the

kitchen.

I think like has changed

and up until four years ago when I

revamped this restaurant I was in

this kitchen every single day. I

never looked for television, it came

and found me. I never worked up and

wanted to write and I never needed

to open two of the restaurant on top

of this. I was very satisfied with

what I had. Then why did you do at?

As I found I had some very talented

people underneath me that I had to

find opportunities for. And what I

see is having those other

restaurant, I've created

opportunities for very talented

people to become bosses within their

own right.

But what if you stretch

yourself too thin? No. What if the

standards at this restaurant to be

honest are not quite as good when

you are not here.

I come back. I sit

by the television and books and I do

the job that I'm paid to do, which

is Cook. The rest is a luxury item

that is added my life.

Interestingly

talk about the team. There's been a

lot of discussion recently about

workplace sort of temperature in top

kitchens and there is a lot of

discussion about, and there's no

other word for it, bullying and

abuse that happens in kitchens and

is often driven by the character of

the number one chef, which in this

case would be you. Have you bullied

your staff in the past?

I think

bullying is a word that stressed up

in many ways. I was born in the 70s

and bullying was something that was

done in the playground. It was a

fight, a push, verbal. I don't think

that happens in kitchens. I've never

experienced it myself. I've raised

my voice, swear, shout and drive

people very, very hard through a

hard service. Yes. I've had it done

to me and I've done it on my staff

in the past.

You have been serious

in -- incidences in kitchens. One in

France, where a station chef

deliberately and repeatedly scalded

his kitchen assistant, there were

others that came into light after

that with sous chefs and assistance

recounting tales, it sounds absurd

but it's not, including a slap in

the face with a wet fish, being

stabbed in the calves with a kitchen

knife, all sorts of different

incidents, the burning incident, one

executed assistant told reporter in

France, quote, these torturers must

be told that they are destroying

lives. What the heck is going on in

some of these kitchens?

I think

these are very few incidences that

are overshadowing a fabulous

industry that is bigger than a

handful of incidents or many, many

more. There are millions of people

working in our industry and

thousands and thousands of kitchens

just running through London alone. I

think the kitchens are pressure

cookers. What has changed, and this

is something we much focus on, is

kitchens have become very much open

places and the chef is part of the

front of service as well as the

back. Chefs are now delivering food.

You actually come out here in even

on?

Yes, we can come out and even my

chefs can come out and speak to

customers. What has changed is we

have now neutralised the area of the

kitchen. The pressure cook of the

kitchen was driven by hard-core

career on top of a hot stove and in

the oven. It was all cooked last

minute. Pseudoscience of food has

allowed us to change the way we

cook, we are taking some training

out of our young chefs to make the

job easier. -- so the science.

Because there's so much choice and

so few people want to necessarily

work in our industry. Maybe that's

because you don't pay enough as

well. That's wrong. We pay our staff

above minimum wage.

Minimum wages but the low bar.

Minimum wage is a point of, if you

work in 8- hour day you find it

tough to survive in some of my chefs

do much longer days and they can

have about £30,000 which is just

below a trainee chef.

The average

wage in the UK is £27,000 and you

are saying, if they work

ridiculously long hours, they might

just get to that sort of threshold.

You own one of the most luxurious

restaurants and all of London.

But

we are delivering a standard, this

is a school of education as well as

a job. And we must identify the

difference. You don't enter fine

dining just a job. You have to want

to be here. The key thing is choice.

Everybody who wakes up in this part

of the Western world can have a

choice in life. You can get out of

bed and look for a job, you can work

as many hours as you like and you

can pretty much never, ever be out

of work that don't work in fine

dining at the Top End if you want an

easy life because it doesn't exist.

British people spend £3 billion a

year on ready meals. That's six

times more than in Spain. Whatever

we do when we switch on the TV and

watch you cooking up fine food, we

go to the shop and buy a ready meal.

We buy ready meals per one reason.

Loud they are sitting on the shelf,

available, there are more of them

and people are working hard with

less time and maybe don't want to

cook. Schools finish later, the

school run is different. Everybody's

lifestyle is changing. Social media.

Go to supermarkets, there is your

problem of obesity and convenience.

It's interesting you talk about the

obesity problem and you save you

believe you are part of a culture

which is beginning to respect and

understand food much better but you

actually opposed your fellow top

chef Jamie Oliver when he campaigned

so long and hard for a sugar tax to

be put on the example the sugary

drinks, the pop that so many kids

still consume. You seem to think

that was a very bad idea. Why?

I

don't think it was a bad idea. My

concern was, what are we going to do

with that money? My concern is, what

happens with that tax. The thing

that Jamie Oliver has done is open

people up to how we have cooked at

home. He's the one that put all the

petitions together, to Downing

Street...

Campaign to the better

squalid -- better quality school

lunches.

You can't just stop at

Downing Street with tax.

It isn't so

much what we do with attacks, it is

to send a price signal to people

that they shouldn't be buying all of

these very sweet and fizzy drinks.

The price goes up a little bit...

They will still buy them. Alcohol

will go up in a pub...

You seem to

have a view that government and

authorities have no role to play.

You said, it is not the

responsibility of government but

parents. We are all human beings who

can read and write. Let's not blame

the government. There are only two

people to blame for the obesity

crisis, mum and dad.

Doesn't it

start at home? Why should the

government be responsible for what

people purchase in the shop? Why

should we hold the government

responsible? They are not our

teachers or guardians. They are a

completely different role and a hard

role at that. I think they got more

important things to worry about with

the economy and with Brexit and what

they are going to do with our taxes

to worry about what we are consuming

at home.

It breaks it worrying you

as a restauranteur? -- is Brexit?

I've voted to remain. I've learned

more about rakes it. I am excited

about the choice of leaving. I was

shocked the morning I woke up and

heard the result. After 24 hours of

thinking about it, we just got to

get on with this. The country has

made a decision. What is the

positive we can drive from leaving

Europe? That is that we have to

potentially build our own future?

Why I voted to remain was purely

from the employment point of view.

There are restaurateurs saying they

are losing staff, there are people

saying the double whammy of losing

key staff who are heading for home

or not applying for jobs that have

become vacant from Europe, the pool

of talented European staff who are

available to British restaurants is

diminishing. But also, the pound is

much weaker and it's affecting you

as you import some of your foodstuff

is with a double whammy in some

restaurateurs are saying they will

have to close.

From the point of

view of we purchase, the customers

will get a hit on that. You have to

pay your bills and wages but it's

interesting in not having more of

the European community coming into

work and that is that we, the Brits,

have got to get out of bed and maybe

work a bit harder and it will make

us better employers. We need to

change our approach a little bit

more because what quality we have,

we are going to have to take really

good care of it. Secondly, we will

have put better apprenticeship

schemes in and start talking to the

youth about exciting industries.

When I was at school in college,

three things stood out. Woodworker,

metalwork, cookery. Also selling and

all sorts of different things. You

don't see a lot of this. We need to

really get back to really good

industries and saying it's not all

about going to university.

That's

fine if it comes to pass but in the

short run, for example, how many of

your kitchen staff, the key -- the

team here at Marcus restaurant up

other parts of the European Union?

About one third. More at the lower

end. What I find is that they are

here for better opportunity. You

probably get a better wage over here

even though they might say that they

don't. It is also the opportunity.

Many of these folks may well over

the next year or two may have to

reconsider their position.

We, the

employers, must make some big

changes. I think on a negative note,

a European family coming to work

with us, we need to work closely

with our schools. And create a

workforce from our own pool of

talent. We need to be growing our

own talent now and put more emphasis

on us and not relying on our

European neighbours to work for us.

And briefly, in terms of the produce

as well. Because of the weaker pound

and the more expensive produce

brought in from abroad, you need to

source more and more of everything

you provide to customers from the

UK.

And that's going to make us

better farmers, we need to look at

agriculture and change lots of

different things going forward. It's

going to take a long time. This will

be going on way beyond my time. I do

think there is a great chance for us

to put the great back into Great

Britain again because this is our

time to live again and not a line

that fabulous European flour which

has been taking care of our industry

to so many years because you can't

deny that our European neighbours,

they do bring a sense of class to

our catering industry that maybe we,

the Brits, don't have. We've got to

find it. We have to, we have no

choice. We now start to create and

make our own noise in the world. Who

would ever say that we would grow

and make wine in this country? We

are making more English wine ever.

That will continue and that is a

celebration.

Marcus Wareing, that is

a great place to end. Thank you very

much had been on HARDtalk -- thank

you very much for