Ibrahim Ghandour - Minister of Foreign Affairs, Sudan HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Zeinab Badawi.

Is the Sudanese government coming

in from the cold and moving

towards becoming a fully

integrated member of

the international community?

The US lifted economic sanctions

on Sudan in October,

ending two decades of its

financial isolation.

Washington says Sudan has made

progress on human rights,

democratic reforms and ending ethnic

tensions in the country.

But critics argue it has not

done enough,

there's still no peace in Darfur and

other conflict areas

and human rights violations

continue.

My guest is Omar al-Bashir's,

Sudan's Foreign Minister.

Has the government really

made a fresh start?

THEME MUSIC

Foreign Minister Ibrahim Ghandour,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you very

much.

It is a pleasure to be here.

How far do you see the lifting of US

sanctions as a fresh start for

Sudan?

It is an inclusion into the

international economy and finance

systems will not put quite sometime

Sudan has been bad from dealing with

banks, transferring money, investors

were leaving Sudan. And so now Sudan

is back and we believe this is a

good start with a country with a

developing economy. At that time the

economy shot up to a great growth.

The US government still wants you to

do more. Heather knew it, the State

Department spokesperson said the

move recognise Sudan's sustained

positive action but more progress is

needed.

There is always more to be

asked by anybody but they were

referring to the human rights and

religious freedoms and we have been

discussing this at length and we are

abiding without constitution and all

international conventions and

agreements and regional conventions

and agreements we have signed on

human rights and agreements and we

are ready to listen to friends.

You

mentioned human rights and that is

one very, very big issue. The

British Ambassador in Sudan says he

is very worried about human rights

about, Darfur and the continuing

violence in different areas. The UX

that you have to do a lot more?

We

are just coming out of war in the

south and we came out from a war in

Darfur, Darfur is peaceful now. We

how peace and negotiating with rebel

groups. In an area still in turmoil,

we are surrounded by the Central

African Republic 's, and you will

find it Boko Haram, Isis everywhere

and, despite of that, people are

trying to manage but you still must

be worried if you are in that

environment and this is what

everybody feels that anything is

possible at any time.

But it is what

is going on in your country that is

concerning people. You mentioned

Darfur, the inner project lobby

group says there is continuing abuse

of civilians in conflict areas. They

say we have known this government

and they will never change.

In fact,

United Nations African hybrid force,

22,000 soldiers, observers from

different countries in the world,

the report said that Darfur is now

peaceful and that is why it the

Council took a decision...

It has

been reduced by a third.

It is a

full cause of departure but it is

phased and until December, almost

11,000 are supposed to leave and

then the rest will leave in the

coming year so it is a fully fledged

departure and ex- head strategy in

accordance with the agreement signed

between the government and the

African Union.

The Americans say

they want to move more movement on

that, you yourself have said that.

Even as late as June last year,

100,000 civilians were displaced in

Darfur. It is volatile and you need

to do more and violence flares up

very easily.

I cannot say it is

volatile but it is something that

needs to be observed and the

government is keen to see that

happen. This is what happened last

June, this is the last rebel group

that is still trying to say we are

here. The leader refused to sit down

and talk and refused peace. He

dreams of having his government led

by himself.

But thereat clashes

between the rebels and

pro-government militia. They need to

be reined in. The government could

do something on that. Integrate them

into security forces.

You can do a

lot. With all due all respect, it is

part of the army. It has brains and

military numbers and

identifications. -- ranks. They are

part and parcel of the Sudanese

Armed Forces and their leaders are

part and parcel is of leaders in

Sudan.

Clashes happening between

them and the rebels?

No, it is a

trial of the government to collect

alms from different parts of Sudan.

We have neighbouring countries with

civil wars everywhere and smuggling

arms is easy and it is part of the

agreement to collect alms throughout

the country and the government now

did that fully in Darfur and this is

why even crimes are almost cut off

by 90%.

When it comes to Darfur what

is that the Americans are saying?

The Americans must always leave the

door open for a pact. You cannot say

everything is perfect and you come

again and make it reversed. This is

why it policy and the policy is

well-known. This is why the door is

open for an amendment and if critics

are faithful and trustworthy.

You

mentioned the Americans have said in

this discussion about lifting the

sanctions and what more Sudan has to

do, the question of religious

freedom and John O'Sullivan, the

deputy direct to the Secretary of

State, paid a visit to Sudan and

expressed concern about religious

persecution...

In fact, there was a

list of countries supporting

terrorism. John Sullivan was

referring to the annual report of

the State Department of religious

freedom are across the world. He

found that every country in the

world is being criticised long way

or another, including the US, for

religious freedoms and Sudan is

dealing with that. We have a special

committee on dealing with religious

freedoms across the country. Sudan

is one of the countries that has

received an excellent religious

coexistence between the different

religions.

John Sullivan pointed to

what he described as the destruction

of churches and the arrests of

priests.

We told him that they are

illegal, it is a land that belongs

to other people and why three

churches were destroyed, fall Bosque

's were destroyed at the same time.

-- mosque. This land belonged to

some people and the churches were

built illegally stop really?

Like

would these Sudanese church of

Christ sake Christians do not have a

right here any more.

You can say

whatever you say but many priests

are saying otherwise.

What about a

recent case of more than 20 south

Sydney is a Christian women arrested

at a gathering in Khartoum by the

public order police because they

were wearing trousers and skirt and

were therefore an affront to public

decency.

I remember very well John

Sullivan was talking about wearing

trousers and when we left our office

we left a journalist wearing

trousers and she was talking to me

and I told you this is an example.

These women were arrested. They

write cases, accorded nature of the

note to oppression of women in

initiative said women have been

sentenced to flogging because of the

affront to public decency.

I read

that press release and I dealt with

the number but I cannot deny there

may be sometimes problems in the

indie since the cold by the police

at this is one of the issues being

addressed in Parliament right now.

So Christian women can wear their

trousers?

It has nothing to do with

religion. Many Muslim women wearing

trousers and it is not illegal

behaviour.

Another civic freedom is

freedom of the press, of course, and

the National intelligence and

security services and apparently

seized writ runs off for Sudanese

newspapers, it has been described as

a press massacre.

We are having a

wider discussion over the press. The

dissipation of journalists across

the country and we are trying to

have a new version of our journalist

and newspapers. That will not have

punishment of whatever kind and

leave everything and The Journal is

like in other cities.

Why were these

newspapers that sees?

This is in

accordance with the law. It is part

of the powers of the National

intelligence. This is why, following

many were asking and this is one of

the decisions and a recommendation

endorsed by the government that we

need to revisit 120 laws and among

them is the press law.

The law as it

stands is inadequate? Right now it

is under discussion.

So press

freedoms are guaranteed? I am sure,

in accordance with the Constitution.

This is one of the elephants in the

room, corruption. You know that when

it comes to doing business in Sudan

all the economic indicators showed

that businesses just run scared

because it was a lack of

transparency, Paul regulatory

framework, huge reputational risks

by doing business in Sudan. By

saying we are open for business, you

have to do a lot more.

There is no

country in the world that can deny

there is no corruption of some kind

but I will use the example of Saddam

getting investors from abroad. Until

2009, Sudan was number two in

getting foreign investments and

number three in the whole of Africa

in getting foreign investments and

many companies are there. Various

corruption but it is not of the

magnitude that people are

broadcasting everywhere. It is

part... Will tell you that right now

the government is digressing

corruption and a portfolio poll

corruption is being instituted and

it is part of the recommendations.

An economic consultant and former

Minister of State in the Ministry of

Finance said the government of Sudan

is to blame when it comes to the

economic ills that have happen.

Foreign investors will not come to

Sudan and local investors will not

prosper if there is not a local

playing field and clear policies to

reduce high levels of poverty.

These

are requisite for success

everywhere. But investment is

helpful in alleviating poverty

everywhere.

Last year there were

demonstrations by students at bash

you are a former head of university-

protesting against the removal of

fuel subsidies and so on and

actually they were talking about

civil freedoms and there were mass

arrests as a result of those

protests?

We are still not at the level of

having peaceful demonstrations

across the country. Some demonstrate

against the government and are

arrested.

They have a right to

arrest.

It is right by law and

constitution. But sometimes people

go and disturb public stability,

they burn facilities, public or

private, and they are arrested. We

are for peaceful demonstrations, we

are for, in fact, whatever people

can express themselves in the way

they like.

So only those who brought

about how they can carried out

violence were arrested, that is not

the report we got.

Many a man in the

street.

They have a right. What many

are saying, especially now that

sanctions have been lifted, is that,

look, we want to make sure that the

lifting of economic sanctions is

going to benefit all of the people

of Sudan, that we are not going to

see vast profits creamed off by the

government and its supporters.

That

won't happen.

Can you guarantee full

transparency?

Definitely.

Definitely. We are one of the few

countries in the world that has an

Auditor-General that does not have a

relation to the government. That is

in every newspaper. He does not take

his report to the president or to

the government were to the minister,

it is from him to the Parliament to

the television, the radio, the

press.

You know, sedan has got a lot

of mineral wealth. -- Sudan. Sudan

is the biggest producer of gold, 19

tons last year produced, despite

losing 90% of its oil production in

the south, got independence in 2011,

it still produces 88 barrels per

day. You have agricultural land. A

lot of riches in the country. And I

have to say to you, people really

want to know that the riches, the

natural resources of the country,

will go to the benefit of the

population as a whole where there is

widespread poverty.

Definitely. You

can see them when you visit. You can

compare the road, the facilities,

the transformation in education, the

number of universities, the number

of schools, the number of hospitals

and health to bed, that, you can see

it. -- hospital beds. At the time

when we were there, people were used

to a new way of living, then oil

went away and people had a shock. If

not, the perversity of the Sudanese

economy, that shock what have killed

the country. But in spite of that,

Sudan overcame the shock and the

economy went on the right path.

A

third of children suffer

malnutrition in Sudan. Your country

has 37 million. If it has riches,

why have you not done something

about these poverty rates? You have

had 29 years in power as the ruling

national Congress party. You are a

senior member and have been a member

since the mid- 90s and so on.

McAdoo

has been through a civil war for a

long time. -- Sudan. Then be entered

into the Darfour conflict. Keeping

peace in a country with civil wars

and conflicts, you need a lot of

spending. Sudan has been under

sanctions for 20 years. That is

another problem. In spite of that,

the economy is moving, and

development is going on. Trucks are

available, wheat is being imported,

and...

But it is all very expensive.

That problem needs to be addressed

to put you have given a guarantee

that the issue of corruption at high

levels is not something the

government will tolerate.

I can hold

you to that?

Yes.

The message you

are giving, Foreign Minister, is

Sudan is turning a corner, using the

lifting of US sanctions to be

readmitted fully into the

international community. I have to

ask, why didn't President Bashid, on

a visit in November to Moscow, you

are with him, he held talks with

President Vladimir Putin, and what

he said was he described US

aggressive acts and asks for

Russia's protection against these

acts, saying we believe the problems

we have faced have been caused by US

interference.

He was referring to

areas like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan,

and others. No one can deny the role

of the US in those countries. By

protection from the US, the

president was referring to

particulate incidence. -- but. --

particular incidents. They tried to

pass through the UN Security Council

a resolution preventing Sudan from

exporting gold. At that time they

called it "bloody gold." Russia and

China and Egypt stood against it and

said it was not possible to go

through and get the resolution. He

was thanking President Putin for the

support.

Just that specific act?

There was more to the conversation,

saying there may be a military base,

Russia could build one on the Red

Sea coast in Sudan. Many said it was

a snub to Washington and cosying up

to Russia at a good time.

We are

looking forward for excellent

relations with Russia. Why do we

want to have bad relations with the

US? We have had good relations with

the US to get the sanctions lifted.

This is a new chapter.

You have

still not the fact that Sudan is on

the list, the US list, of states

that sponsor terrorism. Many have

said America would not remove Saddam

-- Sudan unless they stopped this.

The Director of the CIA last year

declared publicly in international

media that CIA last year declared is

one of the most countries supporting

the US in counterterrorism and we do

not support terrorism.

When will you

be removed from the list?

We have a

plan that will continue all year

because it requires the decision of

the president, the decision of

Congress, and then back to the

president. It is a process. That is

why we are discussing our relation

with the US. At that time it was

authorised. State secretary John

Kerry...

The previous

administration.

Yes. They said the

time is not enough.

So it will

happen in a year or so?

Yes.

And the

president, Bashid, he has arrest

warrants from the International

Criminal Court related to

allegations of human rights abuses

to do with Darfour. He has been in

power since 1989. Is it time to call

it a day?

This is a decision of the

people. The people of the West have

asked us to follow them in democracy

and everything. The people want him.

Sudan, as you know, had two popular

revolutions in 64 and 65. Then there

was the Arab Spring...

You will

stand again in 2020?

It depends on

the president and the people.

He

said he will not stand.

I am not

sure what will happen. We are 2.5

years away. Some people want him to

stand...

What would you like?

It is

difficult to say a big but he has

been leading Sudan excellently. He

saved Sudan from many different

countries that have targeted it is a

proxy of the US.

Foreign Minister,

thank you very much indeed.

No

problem. Thank you.

Thank you.