Zineb El Rhazoui, former Charlie Hebdo journalist HARDtalk

independence.

Now on BBC News, Hardtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen

Sackur. The fierce argument about

the roots of Islamist jihadist of

islands can sometimes be a matter of

life and death. -- jihadist

violence. I guessed today knows that

all too well. Zineb El Rhazoui is a

French Moroccan journalist who was

working for the satirical magazine

Charlie Hebdo when 12 people were

murdered in the magazine's Paris

office in 2015. Zineb happened to be

on holiday. Now she lives under

police protection. She has since

written a book on what she calls

Islamic fascism. To what extent does

she feel she is fighting a war?

Zineb El Rhazoui, welcome to

HARDtalk.

Thank you.

There are words

which seem to me to define your

life. They are words like fight,

struggle, resistance. How long do

you feel that these words have been

at the centre of your life?

You

know, as a Muslim born woman, I

realised very early in my life that

I had to struggle against injustice

and inequality, because I grew up in

Morocco, and in Morocco, when you

start to understand things, you

realise very fast that you don't

have the same rights as men. Even

men don't have many rights in a

country ruled, at the time, by a

totalitarian king, and also by

religious law. So as a woman, I only

had to choices. Either accepts and

disappear as a human being, and feel

destroyed. -- accept. Feel that I am

no longer living. Or struggle and

refuse to be half a citizen.

But

that is not necessarily a choice

that a lot of girls, young women,

females, feel to be their reality in

a country like Morocco today. I

mean, a lot of women probably

wouldn't frame their lives as a

choice between disappearing and

struggle and resistance. So why were

you different from so many of your

peers? Back home in Morocco?

Maybe

these women did not have the tools,

maybe they did not have the courage.

I don't know why I was different.

For me, it is a question of dignity.

I have never considered myself as

inferior to men. I just wanted to be

able to say what I think, to have a

normal life, to enjoy rights and

freedoms. That is what it is. And

for that simple thing, you need,

unfortunately, to struggle and to

make war.

Make war? You really feel

that?

Yeah, of course.

In a way, it

is easy to define your life I'd is

transformational moment that came on

January seven, 2015, Wendy magazine

you worked for was attacked by two

jihadist Sue murdered a dozen

people. -- when two. Maybe it is

wrong to call that transformational.

Maybe you felt you were at war

before that happened.

Of course.

Actually, I call that... I had the

first fatwa against me in 2009 in

Morocco, because a group of

activists, secular activists in

Morocco, they decided to organise a

public technique during Ramadan.

Because in the civil code, the penal

code, it is punishable by jail if

you publicly eat during Ramadan. We

consider these laws archaic, they

violate human rights and freedoms.

So we just decided to protest with

sandwiches. And I deserved day fatwa

for that. -- deserved a fatwa.

There

is something symbolic about going

out with sandwiches to eat in a

public space in Morocco. Surely you

knew that would offend so many of

your fellow citizens in, I assume it

was in Casablanca? Why did you feel

it was OK, and indeed necessary, to

offend so many other people?

If they

are offended, actually it is their

problem. Are they offended when they

see somebody when they are fasting,

on television, eating a sandwich?

Why are they offended if I eat? They

are fasting and they are going to

paradise, I'm not, let me at my

sandwich and drink my copy map. I

want to be free to eat, I want to be

free to exist as a Moroccan citizen

who does not necessarily respect and

follow this Islamic rule. So if they

are offended, that is their problem.

I believe that sometimes provocation

is necessary to impose a debate, to

make people, either they want to

have a debate about things that are

to bill in society.

We will get DD

debate and the ideology and the

taboos later. -- get to the debate.

I want to stick with the impact on

your life and your emotional life in

particular. You have a young woman

who is used to being in trouble. You

are familiar with the notion of

fatwa. You have been arrested and

detained by the Moroccan

authorities. You decide to leave

Morocco after the uprisings of 2011

and the political turmoil. You end

up in France, you get a job with

Charlie Hebdo, the most famous

satirical, provocative magazine in

the country. Were you therefore,

perhaps, not as shocked and

surprised as so many of us were by

the attack on the magazine's

offices? Was it something you were

half expecting?

Yeah, we were half

expecting that. That we never

imagined it would be as violent as

that. Actually, Charb had a fatwa, a

contract on his head. We used to

joke about that. Because the

contract was something about

$200,000, which is not enough to

save the newspaper from bankruptcy,

otherwise we were telling him we

would sell him to them. Charb was,

as they say in French, and

Arabophile. He loved the Arabic

culture, the Arabic language. He was

always saying Allah Akbar, and we

said, stopped joking about that, one

day they will come and kill you, and

we won't be able to tell if it is

real or not.

For those who do not

know the story, you survived because

you were on holiday on January

seventh, 2015. You were on holiday

in Morocco. Your colleagues and your

friends, especially Charb, who was

your mental and your collaborator,

he was one of those who was gunned

down and killed. -- mentor.

I was

actually supposed to be that day. I

was working. I was in Morocco, but I

would wake up that day and send my

suggestions for the articles. It was

about Islamic State, by the way. I

sent an email to Charb saying, that

is what I wanted to do that week. I

was waiting for the answer. And I

got a phone call telling me, where

are you? Are you at Charlie Hebdo?

It is there has been a shooting. --

because there has been. That is how

I learned they were killed.

I need

to ask you about the feelings you

have had since then, how you have

processed it. It is a long time now,

it is years, but you were one of the

people, we know that the jihadist

wanted to kill you. You were on the

list, along with Charb and others.

You enter Charb had collaborated on

a book they particularly disliked.

Yet some people who died were not

writing about Islam at all. Some

were not even at -- and not even

editorial staff. Do you feel guilty

that you are producing work that was

because of these jihadist violent

people to go to that office, and yet

others died, who had nothing to do

with the cause, and you survived?

Of

course. When such a violent event

happens, you are post- trauma

situation. -- you are in a post-

trauma situation. And just as if you

survive a plane crash, you feel

guilty, because you survived and all

those people died. I felt guilty

during the months and months...

Did

you also have a sense of

responsibility?

No. Because I

understood after that that the only

guilty people for that crime worthy

terrorists. -- were the. I think it

was a big mistake. We usually do now

look for the reasons of the crime in

the victims. Many people now, every

time you have a terrorist attacks,

many people try to say, it is

because of the foreign policy of the

country, it is because of racism, it

is Kieran Collins of non-

integration, et cetera. But

actually, the guilty people are not

the victims. The only guilty I find

is the ideology of the killers.

So

the book are referred to, the Life

of Muhammad, which she worked on

with Charb, looking on that now, you

would change nothing? You would

publish it again today, knowing what

you know now like you did in 2013?

You know, when we published that

look at that time, we knew that we

were threatened. And actually, that

was published after the Molotov

cocktail attack on Charlie Hebdo in

November 2011. So we knew that there

was a taboo. But our duty as

journalists, as satirical journalist

than those cartoonists, I am not a

cartoonist, at Charb was, is to

break taboos in society. This is

exactly our job. For us, as a French

satirical newspaper, the right to

so-called blasphemy, the right to

criticise religions and to not

necessarily criticise them but

discuss and debate about them, that

is what drives a limit between

civilisation and barbarism.

Interesting use that word to duty,

in your answer. It seems to me that

reading what you have said and

written about your feelings after

the Charlie had a tax, you feel a

strong sense of duty. -- Charlie

Hebdo attacks. A sense of duty to

not only keep up the struggle but to

intensify the struggle. In your

writings, and your words, taking on

Islam. It seems that that obligation

lives on in you now, more than

before?

Of course. As you said in

your presentation, it is a question

of life or death. It is not

something... It is not something

superficial, a superficial question

in our society. Islamic State arisen

has been killing people around the

world, in the west, but also in

Africa and in Muslim countries.

Track Islamic terrorism. So we need

to fight that ideology on an

ideological level.

But there are

also obligations you have to live a

life that is tolerable, not just for

you, but for those you love. And

when you say that Isis continues to

issue threats against you, which

essentially revolve around

separating your head from your body,

that impacts your child, you have a

child, it impacts your husband, it

impacts all of your family. And it

would be entirely legitimate for you

to take a step that can say, I have

to live a life, not just be a

warrior in a struggle. -- take a

step back and say.

My friends, and

those who are struggling with me,

were killed. I cannot just say that

I am lucky to live, and keep silent.

When we keep silent, actually, we

put in danger those who talk. So if

all of us talk, if all the media in

the world published the cartoons in

2006 in solidarity with Charlie had,

what would they have done? Could

they kill all of us? Without stating

the obvious, this isn't just about

you.

You have had a child since. You

are a mother now. You are also a

daughter. You have parents.

Let me

tell you something. On the 14th of

July, when this terrorist attack

happened in Nice, and there were a

lot of Abies who were watching

fireworks, who were killed,

actually, those babies, those

families, they were not threatened.

-- a lot of babies. They were not

targeted. I am. I have security,

they do not. They were killed and I

am still alive. IMAK. I am

personally targeted. But it is our

civilisation that is targeted, that

is what I believe. It is our style

of living that is targeted.

Do your

family all support the stand you

continue to take? Some of them, of

course, are still in Morocco.

Actually, yes, they support me. Most

of them support me and, you know,

there is an intelligent way to deal

with these things. I have a lot of

friends who are believers, who

worship God who would not

necessarily agree with there but we

respect each other on a human level

and we are still friends and see

each other and find pleasure in

being with each other.

Some people

who come to this argument about

Islam and violence from a somewhat

similar place to you, do believe you

have gone too far. A former Charlie

Hebdo journalist says you went too

far in developing this is homophobic

new races that gradually took over

and ended up endorsing attacks on

members of a minority religion with

no influence in the corridors of

power. His message, basically, you

went too far.

When he published

this, it was before the terrorist

attacks, and he was giving examples

of what he considered as proof that

Charlie Hebdo is so called is

homophobic. And I do not agree with

this term and will talk about it

later. -- Islam phobic. Maybe it

would be strange if you accuse in an

article of being racist and if you

said the author is was Labour...

Surely you are not arguing that

because you are Muslim you are

necessarily immune from the

accusation that some of what you

write is Islamaphobic did not accept

the word Islamaphobic.

For me, if

you are Muslim born, Kristian Bond,

Jewish born, you have the right to

criticise ideas and religions are

ideas. Why am I not allowed to

criticise that? There is a big

difference between criticising ideas

and criticising people. As a

feminist, that instance, I am

against the veil, the me it is a

sexist costume but it does not mean

I hate individually every veiled

woman and deny her that the rights

as a human being. There is a huge

difference between criticising ideas

and people.

You make it sound so

simple but it is complicated to an

peak the two parts of that. Let me

quote you words that seem relevant,

Timothy Winter, who changed his name

because he converted to its name. He

works at Cambridge University, a

director of religious studies and he

says scorning the profit in the way

he sees it yours and some other

writings, goes beyond free speech

and it is an act of violence and he

compares it to the days of Nazi

terror when cartoons supplied a

narrative with Jewish cartoons. Are

you not guilty with that kind of

incitement particularly with the

bookie Europe published which

essentially its title is clear is to

destroy Islamic fascism?

For me

cartooning the profit is no

different to cartooning the Pope,

chief estates,...

It is not just

cartoons. Islam is not a religion of

peace and love but an ideology that

teachers hate all the other and

blesses the inferiority of women and

non- Muslims Dasha you are

condemning as fascists an entire

religion.

Do you know any religion

that is just peace and love?

Christianity,...

This is not an

argument against religion but you

are saying it is an argument against

Islam...

Of course. It is applied as

a fascist ideology by the

terrorists. This ideology is

committing crimes. It is killing

and, no matter who they killed, the

most important is killing the

maximum number of people. Yet can

compare it to fascism because there

are a lot of characteristics close

to what you find in all other

fascism is.

You are aiding and

abetting those who, right now, on

the streets of European cities are

taking Muslims simply because they

are Muslims Dasha you are giving

them intellectual justification and

we know from the figures we know the

number of attacks on Muslims is

rising exponentially.

Are we talking

about Islamic civilisation? About

Islam with a capital I wish you find

the Territories and includes music,

costumes etc, or are we talking

about what is written in the Islamic

texts. The fact of praying five

times a day et cetera. This religion

is a way of worshipping, written in

a bed when country, are we really

keen out to apply it as something

ruling the society in 2017? Of

course is love is not accept

equality between men and women. I am

asking for a society where we apply

human rights rules. If any religion

is a spirituality and it stays at

home, if religion helps someone to

become someone better, religion is

welcomed in that case but no

religion, neither Islam,

Christianity, to rule the society, a

democracy.

Who are you trying to

persuade of your message with the

way you present your ideas?

It seems

to me it is very unlikely you will

persuade moderate Muslims of your

case when you begin by saying that

you associate Islam with fascism.

People who live in Muslims country

know that our... In Europe, the

far-right wing is Islamist. In

Europe the far-right do not share

the same projects as Islamists but

they have the same dialect ticket

tools.

But you are just talking

about Islamic terror in the same way

that Donald Trump does. Is that a

particular problem with some

fundamentalist Islamist factions, at

one far end of the Muslim religion,

or isn't a problem with the religion

itself?

Fahmy Islamists are those

who see Islam as a political

project. -- for me. If the Muslim 's

are community, I belong to that

community. Fahmy, Muslims are not a

community but individuals, citizens,

they have the right to define

themselves by other things than by

religion. Why do people consider

that Muslims are condemned to be

ruled by their religion.

From being

a young woman in Morocco, you have

always felt this absolute need to

resist and struggle and the fight a

war. That fighting has ended up with

you living in a metaphorical cage

with security guards, secret

locations, having to move time and

again to make sure nobody knows your

routine. Is it worth it?

I think the

Muslim people, those born in an

Muslim countries who do not have the

right to drink beer, to have a love

story, to produce a movie, with

kissing scenes, who do not have the

simple rights that people enjoy here

in the West, those people actually

live in jail and they do not have a

choice but struggling against this

ideology and I do not understand

this leftist Europe, born with all

these rights, he thinks we have this

kind of complacency towards what

they think art muslins and who think

we are people condemned to be ruled

by our traditions. In the Muslim

world you have people who deserve

the same universal rights as you and

this is my struggle. If I live in a

moving jail, I consider that inside

my head a much more free than those

who threaten me.

Zineb El Rhazoui,

thank you for being on HARDtalk.

You're welcome. Thank you very much

indeed.