Naftali Bennett, Minister of Education, Israel HARDtalk

It's just gone 4:30am,

which means it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

Israel's Prime Minister Benyamin

Netanyahu took great satisfaction

from President Trump's decision

to ignore longstanding international

convention and recognise Jerusalem

as Israel's capital,

but that diplomatic boost can't

disguise Mr Netanyahu's

vulnerability at home.

He's the target of a long-running

police anti-corruption investigation

and may soon face charges.

An interesting moment, then, for my

guest today, cabinet minister

Naftali Bennett, to declare that he

wants to be Israel's next Prime

Minister.

Is a changing of the

guard in the offing?

Naftali Bennett,

welcome to HARDtalk.

It is great to be here.

Let's start

with politics and personal ambition.

It was a very interesting moment for

you to decide to reveal to the

Israeli public that you want to be

Israel's next Prime Minister. It was

hardly helpful to Mr Netanyahu, was

it?

Well, actually what I said was

only after the Netanyahu era. I

support the Prime Minister

Netanyahu's government, I am part of

his government. I think he is doing

a good job. And I don't think that

we need to hasten his departure from

the Israeli leadership. I think when

things are looking good, we need to

keep it that way. But what I did say

is that after the era Netanyahu,

yes, I tend to become Prime

Minister.

That is a very polite and

tactful answer, but let's be real

about politics. Mr Netanyahu is in a

mess right now. He has just had his

seventh interview with antifraud

investigators under caution. He may

well be facing charges on two

different matters of alleged scandal

in the next few weeks. Your timing

was quite deliberate, wasn't it,

you, it seems, believe the Netanyahu

era as you put it may well be coming

to an end pretty soon.

No, I don't

answer. I know Mr Netanyahu very

well, for over 12 years now. He has

got strengths, he has got

weaknesses, but he is not corrupt.

Pique is profoundly about Israel,

works very hard for Israel and why

we have disagreements, I think the

Prime Minister is doing a good job

-- He cares. He cares about Israel

and I am here to support him.

It is

not supportive, though, is it,

announcing you want to be Israel's

next Prime Minister when you know

tens of thousands of Israelis are

taking to the streets every Saturday

night in Tel Aviv demanding that he

go, you are simply adding two SM is

that an end is coming quite soon for

Mr Netanyahu.

-- adding to the

sense. No, I don't answer. Tens of

thousands is a bit inflated. I think

the overwhelming majority of those

demonstrators are from the left and

radical left side of the political

map. It is legitimate. We are a free

nation. You can demonstrate. But I

don't think it is really about

corruption. I think it is about

politics and they want to replace a

good, strong, right-wing government

with a left-wing government, which

again is legitimate but it is not

about corruption. I don't buy that.

Hang on, unless you are saying the

Israeli police and in particular the

crack antifraud division are somehow

political, then that statement just

doesn't hold water, because we know

the Prime Minister is suspected of,

by this department, fraud, breach of

trust and accepting bribes.

Yes, but

we are only a phase of

investigation, and we know that

about 80% of investigations end up

without any charges being pressed

and certainly without conviction, so

we are long, long away from any sort

of thing like that. I think would be

wrong to accuse the Prime Minister

of charges that have not even been

sent to him. We are only at the

investigation stage, it is a very

early stage, and I hope for the

state of Israel and for Prime

Minister Netanyahu for that matter

that it ends up as nothing.

Well,

that is your hope. Let me quote a

recent Channel ten news report based

on leaks from inside the

investigation saying that police are

expected to sum up their case in two

weeks and to recommend that

Netanyahu be indicted. That is in

both cases. Now, if he is indicted,

do you believe he has to quit?

Well,

Israel is a country with a rule of

law, and we don't base our decisions

on police recommendation. There is a

legal structure where the Department

of Justice needs to press charges

against Prime Minister Netanyahu and

we are far away from that. I don't

think that the fact that the police

makes a recommendation should affect

anyone. If indeed charges are

pressed that is a point where we

have to look at things and make

decisions.

What do you mean, you

will have to look at things and make

decisions? If Netanyahu's charge, it

is not tenable for him to beat?

--

for him to be p.m. ?

We will have to

make decisions based on information

then, how serious are the

allegations -- PM?

What is the

situation in Israel. You know, we

are not in Sweden, we are in Israel,

surrounded by Hezbollah, Daesh,

Syria. We don't afford -- can't

afford to have the luxury of

replacing prime ministers unless it

is truly necessary. And I think we

are far away from that. I think all

the people who are praying for that

to happen should fold their prayer

books and wait, because it's not

happening any time soon.

Yes, but

your contention that these people

who are beginning to doubt that

Netanyahu can carry on, your content

and they're all leftists and

ideological opponents of Mr

Netanyahu and his government, that

is simply not true, is it? Let me

quote you a right-winger Tony,

commentator, publicist. He said the

other day Netanyahu's behaviour is

harming his camp. Every day now

there is a bad smell coming from his

office. It hurts the right.

You

know, we don't operate based on

smells. We operate based on facts

and a legal system. A good, solid

legal system. Right now all we have

is investigations only. The haste to

replace Netanyahu I think comes not

so much from the deep desire to

clean up corruption. Unfortunately

we have had corruption for the past

20 years. Every Prime Minister was

investigated. We had Sharon and now

Netanyahu a

investigated. We had Sharon and now

Netanyahu again. Most cases do not

end up in court. I hope this will be

the case. I think that ultimately

this will be the case. Sorry to

disappoint you.

Well, you're not

disappointing me. I wonder if you

will be disappointed. The bottom

line is this - you say you want to

lead the right, presumably if you

believe Netanyahu's era is coming to

an end sometime soon, you want to

take the right into the next

election. You do not want the

Israeli right to be tainted by

sleaze. Right now I am going to

quote are you somebody widely

respected on the nationalist right,

Cherlow, he went to the last big Tel

Aviv street demonstration asking for

Netanyahu to resign and he said that

the right should not force people to

choose between their political point

of view and backing a government

that is leading a campaign against

investigators and the free press. In

the end he says people will choose

their ethics and integrity over

their political affiliation. That

could be a big problem for you.

No,

I agree that certainly this is

unhelpful for the right wing in it

Israel. I get that. Having said

that, I would not take figleaf and

consider that the whole right-wing

is now moving. We are against

corruption. I will not take even a

small rebate at a hotel. You know, I

don't want any presence of gifts

from anyone and that has been the

way I have operated.

Yes but with

respect a lot of politicians say

that and then it turns out that

frankly that integrity is not as

unimpeachable as they claimed in the

campaign.

Perhaps. Perhaps I am

fortunate to have sold two companies

for a quarter of $1 billion before

entering politics, so I don't need

any money and no one can come and

brightly because I am

self-sufficient. Whatever. The

bottom line is that I think we have

a very good, solid government,

growing economy, strengthening of

our international relations. We do

not want to give all this up and

drag the country to unnecessary

elections, and I think I stand

strongly behind Prime Minister

Netanyahu. We need this government

to continue.

All right, well, let's

talk about diplomacy and regional

politics, then, assuming Netanyahu

does stay in power for a deal

longer. Are you sure that the

Israeli joy that we heard from her

mouth of Mr Netanyahu and indeed

from view yourself, the Jordie over

Donald Trump's Jerusalem decision,

are you sure it is not very

premature and perhaps deeply

misguided? -- joy. While you have

won a victory you have got what he

wanted from Mr Trump, it may well

lead to very grave consequences both

in terms of instability with your

relationship with Palestine and much

more regional instability as well.

No, that's nonsense. Instability in

the Middle East has nothing to do

with Jerusalem or Israel for that

matter. The instability, the source

is internal Arab conflict between

the Shi'ites, between Iran, ISIS,

Israel if anything is a source of

stability, a pillar of stability in

this very to Montrose region and

will remain so. So this was a very

good move from the United States of

America

good move from the United States of

America. I believe the world will

follow suit if not in seven days,

seven months or years. We have

patients -- tumultuous. We have

thousands of years of patients we

can wait another year few more

years.

The decision made by Mr Trump

merely emphasises just how strong

the consensus internationally is

against Jerusalem being recognised

as Israel's capital right now --

patience. I can quote to you, I

don't have time to do it all, I can

quote Pope Francis, the UN Secretary

General, the leaders of Germany,

France, the UK, the EU's Foreign

Minister - all of these voices have

been raised since Donald Trump's

decision making it clear that they

think he is wrong.

Let me be clear,

President Trump's recognition and

the United States' recognition of

Jerusalem as our capital, that is

not the source of the Rosol being

our capital. That is a given.

Jerusalem is the Jewish capital much

more I would say that London is for

British or Paris is for the French

-- Jerusalem is our capital. It has

been this way long since Paris came

into existence. We don't have to

prove to anyone that Jerusalem is

the capital.

I understand this. I am

not in the business of disputing

that many of your knessets in

Jerusalem, that is of course a fact.

What is also a fact is that the

international community, bar Donald

Trump insofar as we take this

decision seriously, the

international community still sees

the whole issue of Jerusalem's

future and sovereignty to be

discussed as part of a peace

settlement between you and the

Palestinians.

I get it, but they're

wrong. And no settlement, no peace

settlement can be predicated on

dividing up Jerusalem. They will

never be peace based on a divided

Jerusalem. In fact, the word

Jerusalem in Hebrew means whole. You

cannot divide Jerusalem and expect

good things to happen. So Jerusalem

will remain unified under Israeli

sovereignty for Rover.

That is a

fact.

CROSSTALK

-- for ever. Jerusalem isn't

unified. You said in saluting the

Donald Trump decision be said for

the past 25 years we have been

failing peace, precisely because it

has been predicated on putting

fences in the heart of Jerusalem and

now that's not going to happen and

we can do peace. You are ignoring

the reality that actually there is

wall, a fence, call it what you

will, that runs through Jerusalem

built by your government because you

know de facto Jerusalem is still

divided and that a quarter of a

million Arabs live in occupied east

Jerusalem and that they still insist

east Jerusalem will one day be there

paternal capital.

-- there. Well,

you've got your facts wrong. I

happen to work in Jerusalem every

day and I drive through the Old City

- there is no war between west and

east Jerusalem. There is no west and

east Jerusalem. There just is

Jerusalem. I can get out of the

studio and drive directly to the

Western Wall or Temple Mount, there

is no fence or anything.

Well, hang

on a minute, I did not couch my

question in terms of the Old City.

You know as well as I do there are

points in Jerusalem where you can go

up to a great big wall and on one

side is the Jewish residential area,

on the other side is the Arab

residential area and if you don't

call it a wall you can call it a

fence, whatever you like, but

Jerusalem still has a divide.

That is the perimeter of Jerusalem,

but that is not the point. It is the

Temple Mount. If we get to an

agreement and get the international

consensus that it longs to Israel,

even without that consensus it

belongs to Israel. The big debate in

the past was precisely regarding the

holy base. I am happy we put that

harassed. -- to wrest.

You can look

at it that way, the 250,000 all more

refuse to agree with what you think.

It is interesting to me that you

want to go much further, it seems,

according to the greater Jerusalem

legislation that you and others are

pushing right now, it seems you want

to transfer approximately 120,000

Palestinians who are currently

regarded as legal residents of East

Jerusalem, you want to push them

outside of the city by redefining

Jerusalem's boundaries. Do you think

that will be remarkably acceptable

to the international community?

We

are talking about zoning, I am not

sure what you are talking about. We

are talking about municipal zoning.

It is a question of what you define

as Jerusalem.

As the municipal

boundaries, what we are saying that

in a sense is that Jerusalem is

Jerusalem and the outskirts are

suburbs of Jerusalem and they should

get better service but that is open

to debate, I won't say that I am

fanatic about that particular bills.

We will learn it and make decisions

based on it.

So you are backing off

that idea, are yous currently those

who have East Jerusalem residency

and will be taken to suburbs outside

of Jerusalem, this is a funnily

important matter.

Actually, for them

it would be a huge benefit because

finally they would get reasonable

and good services, better than they

get today. It is a matter of

Minister Paul zoning, a pretty

boring topic if you want to talk

about it I am willing to go on and

on and explain the benefits. We are

still learning at a government level

and will make the right and

responsible decision here.

Going

back to Donald Trump and your

pleasure at his decision, whether

you are worried that the knock on

the is that it will drive a wedge

between you and for example, Saudi

Arabia and some of the more quote

unquote Sunni nations in the Arab

world, to you which you have been

preaching out, suggesting that could

be a de facto Alliance against Iran.

But a habit Saudis amongst others

saying that this decision is

absolutely unacceptable and it is

now at the front and centre of their

regional policy.

Not at all, it is

lipservice and they have to say

that. Really, the Palestinian issue

is a fake issue, just like the

notion of a Palestinian state is a

fake State. It is not a massive

issue in the international writ

discourse, what everybody wants to

Karabakh is how to block and check

Iran from growing into Shi'ite

empire from Tehran to the Middle

East. Nobody is talking about the

Palestinians at set for studios in

London. It is really not a

mainstream issue.

Luckily this

broadcast will be seen by Arabs all

over the Middle East and the wider

was an community, so when the Saudis

said after Trump's decision,

"Trump's move constitutes a flagrant

provocation for Muslims all over the

world, "You are saying it is fake,

don't need it, it is just a charade.

Is that what you are saying?

If they

care so much, Jordan occupied

Jerusalem for 90 years, why didn't

he give it to the Palestinians?

You

expect me to provide answers? The

answers are coming from you and your

comment.

If they care so much about

the Palestinians then I would have

expected the Arabs to give it to

their brethren, in fact nobody in

the Arab world accepted the notion

of a Palestinian nation. They

wouldn't grant them a state. We have

given them Gaza, they turned it into

Afghanistan. They have an autonomy,

they govern themselves and that is

the way it will remain for the

foreseeable future.

Rather than ask

me questions, it seems you need to

face questions from the Israeli

public. You are telling them you

want to be there next Minister but

if you are also telling the Israeli

public, as indeed Israel's military

chiefs appear to be telling them

lately with an interview in a Saudi

newspaper, in which he was reaching

out and saying there may even be

intelligence sharing with Saudi

Arabia to confront Iran, it seems

you to answer the basic question, is

revising the Jerusalem issue and

telling the Saudis that they are

simply fake and conducting a

charade, is that going to help you

build an alliance with Saudi Arabia

over here and? -- Iran.

What helps

us build alliances is their fear

from Iran taking them over. That is

the big fear and monster in the room

and everybody knows that Israel is

the player, is the strongest player

in the region, that they need Israel

to stop Iran from its expansion. I

am not talking about Saudi Arabia, I

am talking about everyone. The whole

West knows it, it knows something

else that we are the ones blocking

radical Islam from flowing into

Europe. It is because of us that

rivers of terror are not flowing

into Europe put a line between Iran

and radical islam and Europe, you

will see Israel blocking that

because we are the forefront a case

terror. If we were not hear you

would have rivers of terror flooding

France and London and all around. I

would expect that Europe would back

us in our battle against terror.

I

wonder whether you might be

misreading Europe because I see one

of your ministerial colleagues, the

intelligence and Esther said the

other day that Israel is prepared to

bomb London on to the Stone Age. --

Levin on.

-- Lebanon.

Do you think that sort of language

makes you friends in Europe?

I

assume what he was referring to is

that if whether non- shoots

thousands of rockets, clearly we

will retaliate. -- Lebanon. Being

nice doesn't get you to set the, we

were nice 75 years ago but we were

butchered. We will not go down that

path again. We need to be strong, we

are a vibrant democracy and whether

Europe likes us or not, that is

their business. We are not going to

be the conscience cleansing entity

for Europe. We have got eight

country to run and we need to be

stronger and we will remain strong.

As a senior member in the

government, a member of Netanyahu's

security cabinet, a man who wants to

do next Prime Minister, you are

suggesting to me that you, as a

leading voice would be that it would

be sensible for Israel to consider

bombing Lebanon to the Stone Age as

what you see to be the Hezbollah

threat.

Precisely what you did in

Dresden in Germany. If Lebanon

shoots tens of thousands of missiles

on my mother 's home or away I live,

definitely we will retaliate. I

think anyone would common sense

would do that and we do it it

strong. Hopefully we won't reach

that because Lebanon realises it

wouldn't be worth their while. We

are not looking for on a Mac

conflict, we are happy as things the

way they are. We are not owing to

initiate any conflict.

Is said not

so long ago, my approach is to hold

Iran itself more and more

accountable for its actions. So what

are we to expect in the coming

weeks, months? Are we to expect a

direct military confrontation

between Israel and Iran?

No, that is

not necessary. What I am saying is

that we have a big bully in the

region called Iran. It has sent its

tentacles all around us, in Lebanon

through Hezbollah and in Syria

through its proxies. He is willing

to kill others to fight Israel. He

is willing to shed load of Lebanese

and Syrians and Gazans, anybody but

Iranians are. We have to hold them

responsible for this ongoing proxy

war and we will.

We are out of time,

I thank you for joining the. Ashman

joining me.

Thank you very much.

-- joining me.