George 'Johnny' Johnson - Dambuster HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

We are slowly and inevitably losing

the generation of men

who fought in and survived

the last world war.

Monuments to their courage and loss

are dotted all around the world

with many dedicated

to the 55,000 young men

who lost their lives serving

in Britain's Bomber Command.

Like this one in central London

dedicated to the 55,000 young men.

My guest today is 96-year-old

George 'Johnny' Johnson,

the last remaining British survivor

of one of the most extraordinary

and most famous aerial

missions of World War II,

the Dambusters raid.

It was costly and not

entirely successful -

so why has it become such a part

of Britain's national folklore?

THEME MUSIC PLAYS.

George 'Johnny' Johnson, welcome to

HARDtalk. I want to begin by asking

you whether you feel more pride or

sadness that you are the last

British Dambuster?

I think it is

both. Pride, certainly. That I am

still able to support that squadron

that I joined that time. So many

things happened in my favour, I have

to remind people I am the lucky one.

I am still alive. It is not me, it

is the squadron I represent and that

is what I want to do for the rest of

my life, the rest of the work I do,

represent that squadron.

Go back to

1943, you are a young bomber. Did

you know what you are getting into

when you and your crew were told

that you were going into special

training for a very special mission?

Did you have any idea? None

whatsoever. It was made perfectly

clear that we would not know until

much later and that we were not to

talk to anybody about the training

that we were doing all make anything

about it.

It was top-secret and, in

the end, the inventor of this

extraordinary bouncing bomb, the

device that there was supposed to

breach these dams in Germany, he met

you all, Barnes Wallis, before you

went on the mission and I suppose it

was then that you understood what

was going on?

It was then that we

had some conjecture after that

meeting and the immediate one was

the attacks on the German

battleships because, with that

system, we were actually dropping

the bomb some 400 yards short of the

target and it bounces across the

water, hits the target and they

sing. And we thought, that will give

us time to release the bomb and

getaway before we got into heavy

defence areas and it was not until

the next day, the Sunday, when we

went into briefing, when we found

out how wrong we could be.

It was

not the warships but the dams. I

would be honest with you, when I

read about the extraordinary demands

made of the pilots and the crews and

the plane itself, because you were

having to fly so low and having to

avoid so many different obstacles,

including the church spires,

electricity lines, to get to the

precise point to drop the bomb is,

it seems to me you and the crew

surely must have felt that this was

a mission that could well and in

your death?

It never entered our

mind. That would stand, I sure, the

confident in Joe... The pilot?

That's right. That was the way I am

sure the crew worked all the time.

It got to the stage where, that

low-flying you talked about, from my

point of view, it was wonderful. I

am in the most comfortable position

in the aircraft, lying down all the

time and the land, the ground is

just whizzing past as you are going

over, wonderful exhilarating

experience.

That is all very well

when EU doing it in training but on

the night itself, in May 1943 --

when you are doing it. It was to go

after the Sorpe Dam and you insisted

that your pilot, Joe, make ten runs

before he got it absolutely right in

terms of positioning so you could

release the bomb?

In my mind and I

am sure in Joe's as well, we did not

talk about it, we were gone on a

mission, a special mission. Our job

was to make sure that we did it

right. When we got to the Sorpe Dam

and discovered what that entails, we

had already been disappointed at

briefing by learning we would not be

using the bombing techniques we had

been practising for the six weeks,

but it was going to be... An

estimated drop, eventually. We were

not spending the bomb at all, it was

going to be an inert to drop. Going

to flow down without port engine

off, over the dam and estimated drop

the bomb as nearly as possible to

the centre as we could. If I was not

satisfied, I called out, if Joe was

not satisfied he pulled away and

called dummy run. After the six or

seven of these, a voice said Will

somebody get this bomb out of here!

And I had to realise how to become

the most unpopular member of the

crew in quick time but we were there

to do a specific job and, to my

mind, we had to do that job and I am

sure the same was true as far as the

Joe was concerned.

But they were 19

Lancaster bombers involved in the

Dambuster raid. Eight did not come

back. 56 men did not come back

either. Three were captured but 53

were killed. That's right. More than

one third of the entire crew

involved in the mission. That's

right. How did you feel about the

scale of the losses that your team

took?

Devastated at the time.

Complete and utter shock and Barnes

Wallis... The inventor of the

bomb... Burst into tears and said, I

have killed all of those young men

and will never do anything like that

again.

Johnny, you dropped your bomb

and it was a direct hit on the Sorpe

Dam butt in the end that dam was not

breached. The other two dams were

destroyed and the Mohne dam, when it

was breached, it led to huge amounts

of water filling the valley, for

miles and miles top when he flew

back from your Sorpe Dam, you saw

and what did it feel like when you

saw this amazing mission with the

amazing bouncing bomb had worked, it

had destroyed the Mohne dam.

What

were your feelings? To me it was the

highlight of the operation. To see

the actual result of success, of

part of it. We knew by radio

broadcast that the Mohne had been

breached and that the Eder had been

breached by radio broadcast but

approaching the Mohne or what was

the Mohne was like an inland sea.

There was water everywhere but it

was not easy. It had cost lives.

Did

it surprise you, the reaction to the

Dambuster raid? It was big news at

the time. The British wartime press

was so pleased to have this sort of

Triumph to Crow about and then, of

course, after the war, it was

perhaps the most famous single

aerial mission that had been flown

and it was celebrated and, of

course, in the end it was made into

a film. But it surprise you to a

degree to which it became part of

the British myth of the wall?

Would

think it surprise me but I have some

grave misgivings about that

particular period after the war.

About the group of people that I

call retrospective historians and

there were a group of them who

claimed that the Dambuster raid

should never have taken place, that

it achieved nothing, it cost an

awful lot of money in training, the

special aircraft, training of the

crews, danger to the crews itself,

an awful lot of lives and aircraft

loss as well. I would say if I have

met one of those characters I hope

my hands are tied behind my back was

would not be quite sure what I would

do to them.

But don't they have a

point about the Dambuster raid

because in the end you did breach

two of the three dams and he did

destroy some FAQ trees and some

coalmines and, it should be said,

you also killed more than a thousand

German people...

Yes, indeed...

But

according to senior Nazis, the

German war effort was not really put

back very much and, in fact, they

rebuilt the fact is an all of the

infrastructure within five months.

There were at least four reasons why

it was a good rate and the first is

that it showed Hitler and the German

hierarchy that what they thought was

impregnable, the Royal Air Force

could get through and destroyed.

Secondly, it meant that the skilled

workmen who were being employed

building anti- invasion walked up

the coast had to be pulled in to

help repair the dams and thirdly, it

did some damage to the factories

themselves, it did decrease as the

output- not as much as we would like

- that it did decrease the output

somewhat. And I think, finally, the

best was the effect of the morale on

the people of this country because,

as you mentioned the papers, they

were full of it. And it happened so

close to the success of Alamein and

it raised the question, isn't this

the turning point of the wall?

There

is another way of looking at this,

Johnny, and it is not just about the

Dambuster raid at bomber command in

general and you, as a young soldier,

were involved in many raids and

sorties in the period right across

Germany and Italy as well. And it

has to be said, Hugh and your cruise

were responsible for the deaths of

many thousands of civilians. -- you

and your cruise. As well as military

personnel and you have many years to

reflect on this. Do you have in you

any sense of remorse or regret or

guilt for those deaths?

We did not

start the war. If you are threatened

by war, you have to defend yourself.

You have to defend your own country

and you have to do it by whatever

means it you can. And the example

had been set by Hitler himself, the

way he bombed our cities, London,

Coventry, Liverpool and the rest of

them, regardless of human life or

anything else. That was the sort of

thing which had to be fought against

and one of the ways to fight against

it was reprisal of that sort of

attack and that is where eventually

Bomber Command became, I think, Rob

Lee criticised for the way they

attack. -- Rob Lee. That is why I

joined, it was my way to be able to

help to get back at Hitler and what

he had started with his attack on

our country. He was my enemy and

that is the way it stayed the whole

time.

So, when you saw the broken dams and

when you saw the villages being

swept away by the waters, you just

close your mind to the fact that

civilians would be down there

drowning?

Crossed my at all. I begin

to wonder, frankly, as a young

child, I had a pretty horrible

childhood. And I found that I was

left with a father who in the first

place thought I was a mistake

anyway. I was the sixth, the

youngest of six children. And he

beat me often, regularly, and I

sometimes wonder, was emotion beaten

out of me at that stage? Could I

feel so little at that stage?

Well,

here is a question about your

emotions run after the war, or at

the end of the war, because as I

talk about Bomber Command and its

role in the war, that there was an

ambivalence about it. And even

Churchill, when he made his victory

speech, he saluted the efforts of so

many different branches of the

military, but he did not go out of

his way to salute the work of Bomber

Command.

No.

And in some ways it

seems there was a sense that Bomber

Command, with particularly its

targeting of civilians in Dresden

and hamburg and some other German

cities, had gone too far. Had Roque

in a moral code. Were you angry with

Churchill, that he didn't thank

Bomber Command specifically? --

Hamburg.

I was angry at Churchill,

always have been. But I think, since

after the war, the first time we

went back on a television programme,

the cameraman and I were walking

across the dam and said, stop here,

Johnny. I reckon this is where you

dropped your bomb. And I stopped,

looked over the side, and I was

dropping that on again just like

that. And then I walked over to the

other side, and I saw that lovely

valley going down there, and I said,

you know, I am almost glad we didn't

breach this dam. Had we done so,

this valley would have been

completely ruined. OK, it could have

been rebuilt, but it would never

have been the same. And it made me

think more about the after effects

of war, and about war itself. It

didn't make me think any the less of

our war effort. Something we had to

fight for our own defence, that was

it.

I just want to quote you the

words of one historian, Richard

Overy, who has written a lot about

Bomber Command and about the morale

some of some of the decisions taken,

for example the fire bombing of and

Hamburg. He says that we need to be

open and honest that the British

decision was specifically to target

towns, cities and civilians, to win

the war. But he says let's be

honest. That was a decision taken at

the top, and the air crews

themselves, people like you, he

says, were in many ways victims. He

says you were, quoting him, he says

you were sent out in often appalling

conditions, in poor weather, with

fear in your hearts, constantly

aware of the hungry presence of

death, he says. Did you and do you

think that, in a way, you were a

victim, or is that nonsense?

No,

never. I... I don't remember feeling

afraid at any time. I don't remember

feeling any apprehension at any

time.

That's very hard to believe.

Basically, because I had joined to

do a job. And that job was all my

concentration. And that was the only

thing I thought about.

I talked

about Churchill, and you said you

felt anger towards Churchill when he

didn't thank and salute the work of

Bomber Command. In fact, you can

Bomber Command were the one group of

military personnel who were not

given a campaign medal right after

the war.

No.

Does that still hurt?

It does, very much so. It hurts more

so now, because there is so little,

in fact no respect, no recognition,

of the individuals who were lost in

Bomber Command, fighting for their

country, fighting for freedom, which

we are being able to subsequently

enjoyed.

You have spent a lot of

time talking to particularly

children about your experiences.

What is it, what is the message,

that you want to give by taking so

much time to talk to the new

generation?

You do ask the most

awkward questions. However, here

goes. What is the message I want to

give? I want, first of all, from the

school's point of view, the children

have a chance to appreciate the

country they are living in, or why

they are living in it, and what it

might have been had things gone the

other way. I think it is part, an

essential part, of their early

education, and something for them on

which to think in the future. I

have... Didn't start talking about

my war until after I lost my wife.

And then the children suggested that

I should start, and perhaps it would

stop me grieving all the time for

mum, as they put it. And I thought

about it, and I thought I would try

it. And it worked.

Do you think that

you speak about it with a sense of

pride in what you did, but do you

also bring to it a feeling of

perhaps horror, in a way, about what

war is?

After so long, I have...

Things seem a little bit different

now from what they were then. But,

at that time, I thought it was

necessary that we should be fighting

that war, and I thought it was

necessary that we should fight it

the best way we could. And Bomber

Command was one of the advantages of

that type of thought. I feel, now, I

still feel, privileged, even

honoured, to have taken part in the

Dams Raid. I think that was the

highlight of my operational career,

and I shall always remember it as

such.

You have three children, you

have grandchildren, and you even

have great-grandchildren.

Many of

them.

Many of them, and I dare say

you will soon have another

generation following them. Do you

hope, and do you believe, that

always the next generation here in

the UK will learn about the

dambusters, and the dambuster raid?

It has entered the national

folklore, hasn't it?

Some years ago,

I said to my son, I think it's time

we started forgetting about these

things. He said you can't forget

that, dad. That's history. I said I

don't want to be bloody history. But

I find now that... I am amazed that

the interest that has developed over

the last three or four years, not

only in the Dams Raid, but in the

war itself, particularly. And it

seems to me that there is still a

certain amount of interest. It is

still interesting to people. Good, I

am glad. If they are going to forget

it, that is good too. That's up to

them. But as far as I am concerned,

I shall never forget it, and that's

really what it boils down to. It is

too prominent in my mind, it was too

prominent in my life at that time,

and has lived with me ever since.

Johnny Johnson, we have to end

there. But it has been a privilege

to talk to you. Thank you very much

for being on HARDtalk.

Thank you

very much for coming, I have enjoyed

it.