Mahmoud Zahar - Member of Hamas' Political Bureau HARDtalk

Coming up on BBC World News,

HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk,

I'm Stephen Sackur.

Donald Trump broke with long

established diplomatic convention

by recognising Jerusalem

as Israel's capital.

His recent tweets on the Israeli -

Palestinian conflict have

been music to the ears

of Israeli Prime Minister

Benjamin Netanyahu.

So what do the Palestinians do now?

My guest today is Mahmoud Zahar,

co-founder of the Islamist movement

Hamas, which controls Gaza and has

been at loggerheads

with the Palestinian Authority

in the West Bank for more

than a decade.

Are the Palestinians

staring defeat in the face?

Mahmoud Zahar in Gaza,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Most welcome.

I have to begin by asking

you about your frame of mind,

your spirit at the beginning of this

New Year, 2018.

I look at the diplomatic,

the political and the economic

situation in Gaza and I can barely

imagine anything more bleak.

Is that the way you feel too?

First of all, I'd like to address

that this is one of the most

important points in our history.

Yes, our life is very

miserable, not because of bad

management from our side

but because of the crime committed

by the Israeli occupation

and by the cooperation

of the Palestinian Authority

with them, and lastly by the impact

of the international community

represented mainly by Mr Trump

against our human rights

in the most important shrine

in Islam, al-Aqsa mosque.

So, the siege for a long time

destroyed our medical,

our social, economical,

life and nobody is interested

about human rights where 2 million

Palestinian people are living

in this area.

Add to that a miserable life

in the West Bank in addition

to the very distressed life

in the refugee camps outside

Palestine, whether Jordan,

especially in Lebanon and Syria.

For this reason, I think

it is a big crime against

the Palestinian human rights.

Well, you have packed in a lot

of different complaints

into that first answer.

I want to unpick it if I make

because I want to take a lot

of it very seriously.

Let's start with what he

characterised as the maligned

international diplomatic

intervention.

You named Donald Trump.

Donald Trump of course has now said

quite clearly that America

recognises Jerusalem

as the capital of Israel.

This was the response

of your leader, Hamas

leader Ismail Haniyeh,

who said Trump's decision

is, "No less dangerous

than the Balfour declaration.

We will not allow it to pass.

We will not allow Trump's

declaration to pass even if we lose

our heads in the process."

That kind of rhetoric is fine

but what are Palestinian people

supposed to make of it?

Because frankly, you look completely

helpless in the face

of Mr Trump's decision?

I think I disagree with you.

We are living under occupation

for many years, since 1948,

by what is now called Israel.

And after that, in 1967.

But lastly by our method of self

resistance, self defence

against the occupation in Gaza,

we succeeded to eliminate

the occupation in Gaza.

But because of the cooperation

between the Palestinian Authority

which is a big crime actually,

with the Israeli security sections,

they succeed to prevent the intifada

in the West Bank and Jerusalem.

But I would remind you about

what happened when the Israelis

decided to make what is called

the electronic channels.

The disarmed people demonstrated

and they succeeded to protect

the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Mr Zahar, if I may interrupt you,

you say that you will respond

and you've responded in the past,

the truth is, since that

decision taken by Trump

in December on Jerusalem,

we have seen a dozen or so rockets

fired from Gaza towards Israel.

The Israelis have responded

by targeting weapons dumps.

The truth is, everything that

you talk about in terms of violent

military resistance plays

into Israel's hands?

It allows them to characterise route

yet again as terrorists,

out to kill Israeli citizens.

-- characterise you.

What is the use of that

in the current climate?

First of all, these are settlers.

These people left their homeland,

from America, from Russia, and came.

For this reason, we are against

foreign people taking our land,

violated our rights.

And I'm not speaking

here about the rockets.

I'm speaking about the people

in the West Bank having their right

to defend themselves by all means.

We started by throwing stones,

using knives and lastly at the time

used guns against the Israelis.

We have to defend ourselves

by all means in the West Bank,

in order to avoid the expansion

of the settlement not

only on Jerusalem but

on the rest of the West Bank.

But with the language you are using,

Mr Zahar, you are simply

making things worse.

Donald Trump in recent days,

having taken the decision

on Jerusalem, has been tweeting

about you and the Palestinian

movement generally.

He says, "With the Palestinians no

longer willing to talk peace,

why should we make hundreds

of millions of dollars a year

of payments to them and get no

appreciation of respect?"

So the stance that you are taking

is going to cost you,

and more particularly

the Palestinian people,

very dear.

If the US cuts off the funding

it gives to the UN

Relief and Works Agency which looks

after you Palestinian

refugees in the camps,

the situation in Gaza is going to go

from dire to absolutely intolerable?

This language, we are not

understanding well.

Why?

Because our land, our homeland,

our holy places have no price.

It is our religion,

it is our faith and it is our

spirits, it is our future.

So this language can be addressed.

We actually advise them,

don't play with America

and what is called the international

community by this language,

because they are going to make

pressure and at that time,

you're going to yield,

you are going to do denounce your

rights in your homeland.

That's all very well,

Mr Zahar, but what do you say

to the Palestinians who rely

on money coming from the US

to keep them alive?

That is those who take funding, food

and material support from UNRRA,

an agency which is mostly funded

by American money, at least

the biggest funder is America.

This language should be

differentiated between the UNRRA

which is treating the crimes

committed against our

people in 1948.

And speaking about the Palestinian

Authority since the agreement.

When they believed that,

with cooperation including

the security co-operation

with the enemy of the Palestinian

people, they believe

that they are going to achieve

a West Bank, Gaza government

and their homeland all

what is called a state.

We advised them at that

time, and we told them

it will be a big zero.

Now we are not getting benefits

or even we are getting

benefits from the money,

but we can't actually denounce our

rights in the holy place,

the most important shrine in Islam

which is the Al-Aqsa Mosque

because of the American money,

because of the donation.

If I may say so, you've spent most

of this interview so far criticising

the Palestinian Authority

for its relationship with

the United States over many years.

But I'm a little confused.

You in Hamas, as of October 2017,

just a few months ago,

are committed to a reconciliation

agreement with Fatah which is

supposed to lead to reunification

of the administration in Gaza

and supposed to see Fatah and PA,

Palestinian Authority forces take

security control in Gaza.

Are you suggesting to me that that

deal is now completely off?

First of all, I'd like to address

that it's not a reconciliation.

This is a misleading name, actually.

We in Cairo in 2011,

agreed to have a deal,

an agreement in Cairo.

This agreement includes

the most important point,

to run elections for the Minister

level, for the legislative

council level and for

the National Council level.

And we are sure that we are going

to win this election.

At that time, we are going to change

the attitude of this authority.

From cooperating with Israel

to the degree as we did

with Israelis in 2005.

We don't have time for long history

lessons but the bottom line is,

just a few months ago,

you are prepared to talk

about a deal with Fatah and Fatah

insisted part of that deal was that

you would accept Palestinian

Authority security control in Gaza

and Hamas would ultimately have

to give up its weapons.

Are you prepared, in Hamas,

as part of a national deal,

to give up your weapons?

Again, it's not a national deal,

it's between Fatah and other

Palestinian factions.

But the Palestinian people

in the refugee camps,

and more 6 million people outside,

has not shared it.

I'm speaking about what is

the substantial goal of this deal

you describe in the last few months.

It's not a reconciliation.

It was implementation

of the agreement in Cairo 2011,

this is the most important,

the substantial elements in this

agreement is to run elections.

Not to be controlled by Fatah

or to accept the attitude

or political attitudes of Fatah

concerning the Israeli

issues or the other.

So our agreement is to implement

what had been agreed in Cairo.

The bottom line is you are not

prepared, are you, to give

up your weapons based control

of the Gaza strip and your continued

determination to fire

rockets into Israel,

to dig tunnels under your territory

into Israeli territory in order

to conduct terrorist

operations inside Israel,

you're not prepared to give up any

of that and as a result,

Fatah and the PA continue to put

sanctions on the Gaza Strip

including blocking the payment

of power supplies.

Your policy is damaging

your own people?

I'm sorry to hear

that from your side.

This is the language of Israel.

We are not terrorists

and we are not launching rockets

against Israel randomly.

We are defending ourselves

against the fifth, the Phantom 35,

the most sophisticated weapons

belonging to the Israelis

destroyed our infrastructure,

destroyed our people.

Personally, I was a target

many times by Israel.

They killed two sons of mine.

One of them was getting

a Masters degree from

Salford University, Manchester.

So you are not speaking

about the crimes of Israel

against our people about

the sanctions, about destroying our

infrastructure basis

and you are resisting to describe...

Hang on...

Let me continue my answer.

You are speaking as though

we are launching rockets

against Israel as terrorists.

We are not terrorists,

we are freedom fighters.

We are occupied by foreigners,

dismissed all through your history.

You as European people,

and the Americans, particularly

European people, are responsible

about the disaster of Jews,

100 times when you destroyed

the existence of the Jews

in your countries and dismissed

these people to our people

as a part of the occupation.

Hang on, Mr Zahar, I want to ask

you a serious question.

I know your personal history,

I first met you on a South Lebanese

hillside when you've been deported

by the Israelis back

in the early 1990s.

I know your own story including

that of your family.

But I put this to you.

When you tell me that

you are conducting this struggle,

I say to you, the UN envoy

to your conflict with Israel,

a UN envoy called Nikolay Mladenov,

he said recently, that

the Palestinians need to focus

on addressing the humanitarian needs

of their people in Gaza,

not on building tunnels and spending

money on rockets which they intend

to fire into Israel.

Why do you not put the humanitarian

needs of your own people first?

Do you believe that your

capital can be occupied

by foreigners and the price

will be humanitarian aid?

Humanitarian aid is our right,

whether we are in fighting

as freedom fighters

or living in prison.

We are here speaking

about national interest.

Our interest is our land.

Our land was occupied in 1948.

Our interests is our holy place.

Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is the most

important shrine in Islam,

not only for Hamas but for every

Muslim, even the British Muslim.

So we are speaking about

the national interest,

not as a beggar looking

for money from their area

from

Mladenov or the other one.

We are an occupied area,

we have to achieve sovereignty.

I am asking a simple question,

what moral principle justifies

Netanyahu to come from America

while his father is still there,

and to occupy our land?

What justifies Lieberman...

I guess what I'm asking...

To be in our land?

I guess what I'm asking

is for you to reflect

on today's reality.

To be honest, a lot of the message

you're giving me, I've heard many

times over many years

from you and fellow

leaders of Hamas.

I'm just wondering whether you are

prepared to accept that the current

situation might need some fresh

thinking on your part?

Because if you look

at what is happening,

if you look at the way

in which Donald Trump has broken

with diplomatic convention

and change this situation,

the dynamic in the

Middle East conflict.

And if you also look at what's

happening in Israel today

with Netanyahu appearing to see

a green light for new measures,

for example the Likud party

approving the policy of annexing

Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

A new Jerusalem bill which basically

makes it almost impossible

to imagine the Knesset ever ceding

territory to the Palestinians

in Jerusalem as part

of a peace process.

If you take all of these things

together, it seems to me

you are in a more negative,

difficult diplomatic place then

you've ever been in before?

And I wonder whether you now have

to develop a new strategy?

OK, OK.

We are not believing

in these diplomatic changes.

We are not depending

on diplomacy of the enemy

of the Palestinian people.

You are speaking all the time

about what was the attitude

of the international community?

What was the result of the voting

order in the Security Council

or in the General Assembly?

What happened?

Netanyahu is supported

by the American president,

but the majority of the world

are against them.

This cannot be an argument to

convince us to denounce our rights.

This argument should be

for the Palestinian Authority

when they believe in what is called

the peace process.

We practiced, as a Palestinian

people, all the peaceful methods

in order to achieve our right

as a homeland and now,

we see no square metre

for the Palestinians except Gaza,

liberated by armed resistance.

If I may, Mr Zahar...

I'm sorry, I should continue.

We are insisting to defend

ourselves by all means,

including the armed resistance

and the people are believing

what you are addressing

as the international community,

money and the aggression

of the settlers and Netanyahu

policies and Trump policies,

this will not actually change.

People are admiring to sacrifice

in order to achieve the homeland.

If I may say something,

today, in this interview,

you have sounded very combative.

You have sounded like Hamas has

sounded for many years.

But I would just say to you,

in May of 2017, your movement came

out with a new policy document

for the first time, you, in Hamas,

said you would accept a solution

which gave the Palestinians a state

on the 1967 lines.

And it looked as though,

with a new leader, Mr Haniyeh

in place, it looked as though Hamas

was beginning to search for a way

to play a role in the peace process.

To become, if I may

say so, more moderate.

Have you walked away from that now?

Are you not interested

in being more moderate any more?

I'm sorry to understand from you,

because we are speaking

about establishment

of an independent state in the area

of the occupied 1967.

But this is the continuation

of argument.

But we are not going to denounce

a square metre of our land

which is Palestine.

So you still want to destroy

Israel, is that it?

You still want to destroy

the state of Israel?

It is not a matter of destroying

Israel, it is a matter

of liberation of our land,

occupied by foreigners.

If you think all of that land

from the Mediterranean

to the Jordan River is yours,

then that is the destruction

of the state of Israel.

This is Palestine, occupied 1948.

It was occupied in 1948

by the support and blood

by the British occupation.

For this reason, we are going

to achieve our rights

in the whole of Palestine.

Mr Zahar I want to end just

reflecting a little bit

on the case of Ahed Tamimi,

the 16-year-old Palestinian girl

from the West Bank village

who was videotaped confronting

an Israeli soldier, slapping him

and kicking him because she believed

he had been responsible for violence

against fellow villagers including

members of their family.

The video has gone viral,

Palestinians now seem

to regard her as a hero of sorts.

And this is what Diana Buttu,

my former Palestinian

Authority adviser said.

She said, "Perhaps the reason that

Israel sees the Tamimis as a threat,

and the 16-year-old is in detention,

is because she and the family

represents what the current

Palestinian leadership is not.

That is defiant, active

and unwilling to remain silent."

Is the resistance in Palestine now

in the hands of ordinary people,

young people particularly,

not with veteran leaders like you?

First of all, the Tamimi family

are not members of Hamas.

But this is the attitude

of every Muslim everywhere.

Whether they are in Palestine,

occupied 1948, or occupied 1967.

The Tamimi family are

resisting themselves,

they are resisting their right

in Palestine, in holy places.

This is a very symbolic manner.

We are almost out of time

but the key is whether you regard

that resistance is having to be

violent or whether it can simply

be civil disobedience.

Which is it?

We practice all methods.

Since the occupation,

we practice civil defence.

Self defence.

In the first intifada,

we first thought we'd distributed

leaflets and the result was more

Israeli aggression

from the occupation,

to the degree of arresting thousands

and thousands in the Israeli camp.

And the people were forced at that

time to use violence,

throwing stones, and after that,

using knives, and after that,

when they had succeeded to have

guns, they used guns.

And by these guns, Israel

escaped from Gaza, so this

is actually very symbolic.

Because failure of the peaceful

demonstrations, against the Israeli

occupation, against the Israeli

aggression against the is American

aggression, will force

the Palestinian people,

including families

like the Tamimi family,

in order to make self defence,

by using what he

describe as violence.

This is not violence.

All right...

This is one of the methods

to have self defence.

Mr Zahar, we have the end there.

I thank you very much indeed

for joining me from Gaza.