Lord David Owen, Former British Foreign Secretary HARDtalk


Lord David Owen, Former British Foreign Secretary

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Now on BBC News it's

time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. The beginning

of the year is a time for reflecting

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on the path and plotting a better

future. Britain, their focus is on

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where Brexit is taking the nation.

How will leaving the EU will affect

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the UK's sense of itself and its

international standing? My guest is

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a distinguished political veteran,

Lord David Owen a former labour

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secretary who tried and failed to

change the face of British politics

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by launching a new party on the

centre-left. Does the UK currently

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have a clue where it is going?

Lord

Owen, welcome to HARDtalk. Nice to

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be here.

Let's begin with Brexit.

2018 must be the year deal is done.

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An agreement reached between Britain

and the EU 27 on the shape of

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Brexit. If it is not done this year,

there will be no time to ratify it

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before 2019. Do you believe a deal

will be done?

It can be done and I

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think it will be done. I am more

optimistic now that we have a

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transition period which many people

called for and I think it is

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essential.

Lighted immediately you

did upon the transition period.

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Doesn't the idea of one mean that

what we are looking at is a total

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barge? In essence, the British

government has agreed will still

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play by the EU's rules for two or

three years, possibly more, after

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March 2019.

By training I am a

doctorate of medicine. I am an

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abolitionist and when you look at

the evidence, people need more time

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to adjust. If we had planned

properly for it, if there had been a

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government evaluation of what

leaving the EU meant done by David

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Cameron's government and we had

gotten plants in place then it could

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have been done much quicker. Once it

was clear that the Cabinet was

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completely bare and Cameron would

not even remain as Prime Minister,

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it was bound to take more time. I

don't think we should expect to be

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anything other than basically our by

December 2020. We will be out of the

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EU in March... In 2019 and

completely from the arrangement. We

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will still be Europeans. We will be

traders in Europe as we have been

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for centuries. The emphasis of our

exporting effort will shift but that

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has already been shifting. We have

been moving away from Europe and

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towards foreign markets for the last

20 years.

We will talk about trade

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and the wider diplomatic field in

which Britain will play. To stick

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with the process for a moment, you

have written much about it. I quote

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you directly, Brexit never was and

never can be an easy decision. It

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must be so filled by a United UK.

Only a united country will get a

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good deal from the EU. It is quite

transparently obvious that the UK is

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not united. Even the Cabinet is not

united over what represents a good

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deal for Britain.

I think they are

coming to a better position. It

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would be better if they were mourned

United. This issue of Europe has

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been splitting political parties

ever since I first became a

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candidate for the Labour Party in

1962 when this issue was raised. We

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have only had a two referendums,

quite exceptional, and that is a

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cost the Labour Party was split,

massively, in 1975 and had a

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referendum and the Conservative

Party was split massively and we

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have this recent referendum. MPs

show by the day how difficult it is

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for them to face reality. They voted

for a referendum and put it through.

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You abdicate from the decision. You

passed that over to the people of

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the country. They can get involved

in negotiation strategy and some

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elements but even as a you are

constrained. It is an international

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negotiation between 27 countries and

ourselves. It is not even really a

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negotiation. They will come forward

with a framework and we have to

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agree.

The referendum clearly was

advisory, that was the nature of

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the. Secondly, as the upshot of the

moment. The argument today from many

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people in the Conservative Party who

are pro- remain and the Labour Party

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who are pro- remain as well is

independent of servers is a feeling

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that if the public opinion would

fundamentally shift during the

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course of 2018 then there would be

legitimate grounds for a second

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vote.

Do you accept that? I don't

believe there would be. I must say

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that when a government sent out a

message, paid for by the taxpayer,

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to every individual and says this is

your decision and we will abide by

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it, I think that the country must

abide by it.

As a Democrat, doesn't

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worry you that you guv, which has

been tracking opinion ever since the

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referendum, has found recently a

consistent feeling among the rich

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public who say they would prefer

Britain to remain and not leave.

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There are many different polls on

that but I am not going into them. I

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don't enter into the argument about

the referendum. That decision has

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been taken by the people. There is a

legitimate argument about how we

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negotiate and what position were

dogged by highlighting the decision

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is taken. -- but the decision is

taken. A federal Europe was warned

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about two years ago. I supported

that. It's not so much about trade

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as the fundamental ones that this

country should be a self-governing

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country.

Talking constitutionalism.

Usage in the House of Lords. The EU

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withdrawal bill is going through the

Commons and it looks as if Theresa

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May has cobbled together a

legislative deal which is acceptable

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to a majority in the Commons. You

will go to the lords and there is a

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strong possibility that there is not

a majority in the House of Lords and

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the Tory party is considering a slew

of pro- Brexit peers to ensure a

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majority in the Lords.

It has no

legitimacy at all to block a

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referendum. House of Lords. It is

the House of Commons who sent it to

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the upper house. We are an advisory

chamber who can make sensible

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changes on legal issues and there

are complicated legal questions

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about this bill which are

inevitable. But they should be

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weighed and considered. At the end

of the day, the House of Commons has

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to determine the issue. They have to

be very aware, more than they are at

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the moment, of the will of the

people. This issue has been with us

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for a very long time. In 1975 there

was a decisive vote and it was

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accepted. Acyclic, for four years.

This time I think it has surprised

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the people who are passionate. I

supported Europe for many years. And

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I did not make a U-turn. I did not

even change my position. I oppose

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the eurozone. I don't believe you

can run a currency from 27

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countries. I did not believe in a

federal Europe and never did. As

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Foreign Secretary I put to Cabinet a

paper that was designed to show you

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could be in Europe without it coming

a federal Europe. Now with the

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French president, very determined

for a federal Europe, good luck to

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him. If he and Germany put their

acts together, it is possible to see

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a fleece the eurozone countries, may

be a reduced number, effectively

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being a United States of Europe and

we will have good relations with

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them.

Talking about how that will

work, you wrote a book about the

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foreign policy after Brexit.

Someone

25 years younger than me voted

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remain and I should think this shows

you can bridge the gap.

That's

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unpicked the thoughts behind the

book. You said... This is not in the

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book that something you said before

the referendum itself that stuck in

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my mind. We will rediscover the

skills of blue water diplomacy and

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rise to the challenge of global

markets. It would be the spark we

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need to re-energise Britain. A

challenge and an opportunity. Is

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touring staff. What on earth is this

blue water that we must see you

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speak of?

We do before, we used to

have a worldwide Navy.

This is not

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the times of Lord Palmerston any

longer...

Of course not. It is a

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modest navy but it has -- is capable

in my view, I don't see them playing

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up and down the South China Sea

taking on China but I do think we

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have wanted and needed for the UN a

naval rapid reaction force for many

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years and I think this could be a

lead role for Britain but with

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Commonwealth partners.

But to begin

with this notion of Britain rising

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to the challenge of local markets

and a focus on the military because

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it seems much more important to

focus on trade.

We am -- we have a

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history of merchant trade. We have

gone and opened markets in the past.

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You may sound like a rude yard

Kipling novel. The reality is quite

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different. -- Rudyard Kipling.

When

I left the House of Commons, I left

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it. I was in business in the UK in

textiles. In Russia with steel and

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oil and in America with

pharmaceutical industries. I am not

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talking completely with no knowledge

of what it takes to export.

And a

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fair point. But I'll wonder if you

are reading what those outside

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Britain looking in our same.

Essentially key trading partners

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with the British government says

they will reach out to extract deals

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with. This is what they say. China,

Beijing's state-run global Times...

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When Philip Hammond went there just

before Christmas, they said that

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uncertainty over the future position

of the UK in global trade in

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financial markets will inevitably

have affected the investment and

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cooperation plans of Chinese

companies in the UK. India. The High

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Commissioner, no less of India in

the UK has said that Britain will

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have to accept higher levels of

immigration from India if it is to

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have any hope of signing a

free-trade deal with India after

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Brexit. This is the reality.

If they

are skilled people coming in to fill

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jobs in high-quality areas of

expertise, India does have great

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knowledge in terms of computers and

modern science, we should welcome

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them.

That you know that most

people... I wouldn't presume to know

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what they really felt, but many

people it seems to voted Brexit,

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voted on the grounds that it would

reduce immigration, period.

What

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they did not want was unlimited

immigration from 27 EU countries

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that they had no capacity to limit

or control. We will have to have

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immigration laws now answerable to

Parliament that this is not a closed

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door. We are not closing ourselves

to people who can help our economy

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or help our national health service,

help science. And also to students.

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We need to be very much aware of the

balance and immigration has provided

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great strengths for this country.

And I don't know of any serious

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Brexiteer who believes we will

suddenly stop all immigration. We

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need to moderate it. It grew out of

control, particularly where was

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concentrated in parts of the country

where there was not enough in the

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health service nor education.

And if

you could address my point about

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China? In the word of a China expert

here in London he says the Britain

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has diminished and isolated itself

in the eyes of the Chinese as a

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result of Brexit.

I don't agree with

that. I know it is sometimes said by

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these experts but I have watched

little article about it. Just

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recently I think in the Telegraph, a

small company in Hastings deciding

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to move from 90% into European trade

to move into China. They took an

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area of high electronic lighting

equipment and they now sell into

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chain hotels and do extremely well

in China.

But we could have done

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that in the EU. Germany's trade

relationship with China outstripped

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sales because they do very good

exporting stuff. I don't see how

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Brexit will improve that.

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Why do you take on yourself to say

we are not? What do you know of this

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issue?

I'm just saying relative to

Germany...

Why do we spend our whole

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time doing ourselves down? Why do we

have day after day newspaper stories

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aimed at the moralising, aimed at

sharpening against it? Who are these

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people who can't take defeat in a

referendum who spend their whole

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time on this issue? There is a

positive story. We are a great

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country still, we have a great deal

of courage, enterprise, energy in

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our young people. I know you are one

of them who would wish to stay, but

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what I would like to see about those

younger people, they are much more,

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in my view, turning their hand to

the challenge in front of us.

What

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would you call the IMF and the CBI,

and the Bank of England, are these

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all part of this sort of doom

mongering conspiracy?

All three of

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the people you have mentioned...

Well, they are institutions.

They

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were prophets of doom before the

referendum result. Those exact

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predictions have not been fulfilled.

And when we are joint bottom of the

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G7 and growth?

We have had a

devaluation in part as a result of

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Brexit but in part in my view

because we were at an unrealistic

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exchange rate. Our exporters are

moving up... I don't really

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understand why one should spend our

whole time questioning the very

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judgement of the British people who

decided that they wanted to leave

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the EU. Is that the role of the

elite? Is this the role of some MPs

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who were not able to win? Or are we

prepared to live with the result and

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make a success of it? And I really

do believe this requires...

I think

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it is important that the future be

considered very carefully, not just

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from the point of view of the

politics of Brexit, but from what

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those outside the UK are actually

saying and thinking about Britain's

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future relationship with their own

countries. To finish...

What I would

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say it he read out is a challenge.

And I don't deny it is a challenge.

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But what do you think the Americans

are going to make of the UK post-

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Brexit? Just to quote you a couple

of important voices, senior Democrat

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Senator Ben Carden said recently

Germany post- Britain leaving the

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EU, Germany will become even more

dominant in the EU. And he is

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looking to the EU first, not to an

independent UK.

Well, Germany is

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already the dominant partner in the

EU, it is the strongest country. But

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I believe that written will become a

very important, major contributor to

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NATO, which will be welcomed by many

Americans. After all, it wasn't just

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President Trump, it was president

Obama who told us we were

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freeloading, we in Europe, on NATO.

You speak with a perspective full of

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fascinating experience. A former

Labour Party from Foreign Secretary,

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who decided to leave Labour, you

found it to left wing, to socialist,

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you wanted to create a new centre

ground political movement, the

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Social Democratic party, for a

while. It was extraordinary popular

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but ultimately it was a failed

attempt to break the mould of

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British politics. Here we sit today

with a really avowedly socialist,

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leftist Labour leader, Jeremy

Corbyn, who says that he now

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represents the new centre ground in

British politics. He says he is on

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the cusp of a historic victory for

socialism and the left in the United

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Kingdom. First of all, do you think

that is true?

I don't think we can

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tell. I think that Labour got many

votes, many, many votes, in the

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north of England, from people who

wanted to leave the European Union.

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And I think that Labour should focus

itself on getting a good result,

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leaving the European Union. And I

think all of us should.

It seems to

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be Labour's policy is to say, yes,

we are going to leave, we want to

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leave, but we want to stay if

possible inside the customs union,

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baby inside the single market as

well, and if that isn't possible, we

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want the closest relationship

possible and the softest wrecks at

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possible.

Well, I want the closest

relations possible, but it is not

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possible to have control over the

emigration from EU countries into

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this country and stay in the single

market and in the customs union.

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This has been made crystal apparent.

And you have only got to see what

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President Macron only just recently

criticised the EU for giving as much

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to David Cameron in his deal, he

called it blackmail. Now he

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definitely wouldn't give us a better

deal than was offered to David

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Cameron, and that wasn't sufficient.

So I think...

You have couched your

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view of Corbyn in terms of Brexit,

and it is very important. Let's just

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leave Brexit aside for a moment.

Well, let me, I didn't answer your

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question on Corbyn and I will answer

your question on Colburn. I think he

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has got quite a lot running for

himself and his party, and good to

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him. I think it is a very remarkable

achievement.

Sorry to interrupt, it

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is rude of me, but if you are in

Labour today, a senior figure in the

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Labour Party, would you feel able to

serve under Jeremy Corbyn, or would

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you walk away?

I gave money to the

Labour Party at the last election. I

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am a supporter but not a member. I

am not a member because I don't

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agree with quite a lot of its

economic policy. But I do think that

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they have shown greater strength. I

personally think Labour is more

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right than not on the health

service, and I think this government

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is literally destroyed the health

service in England. Fortunately, not

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yet in Scotland, Wales or in

Northern Ireland. So I am still a

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social democrat. I have never made

any secret of this. I have never

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been a Tory, and I will never be a

Tory. But on this issue at the

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moment, let me focus. I do believe

the issue for this country over

0:19:400:19:43

2018, and I agree with you, this is

the moment where the toughest

0:19:430:19:47

decisions are going to be taken over

Brexit, that we should rally as a

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country, we should spend our time on

getting the best deal that, that

0:19:540:19:58

party politics should slip away into

its normal place, and not elevate.

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There will be time of an election,

it might be 2019, might be 2020,

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might even go to 2021. By that time,

Labour has the opportunity to

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present itself even more

successfully than it did at the last

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election, which it didn't win. I

hope they will. I am not one who is

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going to spend my Ho, called I'm

telling you that Mr Corbyn will

0:20:170:20:21

never be prime minister. I think it

might well be.

Well, with respect, I

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did look at your past prognoses of

Jeremy Corbyn, you said you didn't

0:20:240:20:28

even think he would lead Labour into

the last election. He said he is a

0:20:280:20:32

decent person but I think you will

have to stand down before the last

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election. Which you said before that

election.

I did, but I also say

0:20:360:20:40

don't create a new party. The SDP

was a great attempt. It is a truth

0:20:400:20:46

that Jeremy Corbyn has shown more

sensitivity to his critics from the

0:20:460:20:50

right than Michael foot ever showed

in 1981.

What I associate you so

0:20:500:20:54

much with the fight within Labour

against so-called militant and

0:20:540:21:00

left-leaning groups within the

party, in the late 70s and early

0:21:000:21:04

80s. You walked away, you were

described as a traitor by so many in

0:21:040:21:08

the Labour Party. And now, Corbyn,

who has a an agenda of

0:21:080:21:14

nationalisation, about out because

he is very proud to be a socialist.

0:21:140:21:18

You are saying I can sign up to

that, I can even give money to it.

0:21:180:21:22

Well, I think the last act of the

Labour government under Gordon

0:21:220:21:25

Brown, which was a sensible one, was

in fact to nationalise part of the

0:21:250:21:30

railways, when it had collapsed.

That is the second David Gower new

0:21:300:21:34

turn. You don't like the phrase, but

you have change position on Europe

0:21:340:21:38

from being pro- being in the EU to

being very much being out of it, and

0:21:380:21:42

in terms of socialism, and a pure

left-wing ideology, he rebelled

0:21:420:21:46

against it, and now you are for it.

I never joined the Liberal Party. I

0:21:460:21:51

stayed a social democrat all this

time. I told you, I don't think

0:21:510:21:55

currently the Labour Party is a

Social Democratic party, that is why

0:21:550:21:58

I have not joined it. But I am of

the left. I am a passionate believer

0:21:580:22:03

in the National health service. I

believe that the creation of that

0:22:030:22:07

was a great thing. I rejoice in the

fact that my father didn't have too

0:22:070:22:14

asked his patients to pay. So on

social policy I have always been on

0:22:140:22:18

the left. But I was, when I was

leader of the SDP, and even before,

0:22:180:22:22

I believe that we did have to change

trade union laws. I believe that we

0:22:220:22:26

did have to change the economy, and

above all, I wanted strong defence,

0:22:260:22:30

all of those were challenged by

Michael Foot in 1981 to 1983, and it

0:22:300:22:35

took 81... From the time we left,

until 1997 before Labour one. Corbyn

0:22:350:22:40

is getting closer to it, and as I

said to you, he has attracted young

0:22:400:22:44

people. He has got an increased

membership. You can't take this away

0:22:440:22:48

from him.

If you had your time over

again, would you now think

0:22:480:22:54

differently about leaving the Labour

Party? Would you have stayed in?

0:22:540:22:58

Well, you studied these things, you

know perfectly well I was totally

0:22:580:23:02

opposed to the new SDP linking up

with the Liberal Party within weeks

0:23:020:23:05

and months of joining. I thought

that was a great mistake. We were a

0:23:050:23:09

new party and we should have stood

on our own ground. And I did not

0:23:090:23:13

expect when I joined the SDP, and

helped to make it a success, but I

0:23:130:23:17

would spend a lot of time arguing

are you or are you not a liberal? I

0:23:170:23:22

was not a liberal. I remain a social

democrat, and that means I have to

0:23:220:23:26

give the Labour Party might help

where I can, my criticism where I

0:23:260:23:30

think it is just, but overall, I am

on the left in British politics, and

0:23:300:23:34

I have never shifted that position.

We have two MBA, but thank you very

0:23:340:23:38

much for being on HARDtalk.

Thank

you.

-- we have the end there.

0:23:380:23:47

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