Lord David Owen, Former British Foreign Secretary HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. The beginning

of the year is a time for reflecting

on the path and plotting a better

future. Britain, their focus is on

where Brexit is taking the nation.

How will leaving the EU will affect

the UK's sense of itself and its

international standing? My guest is

a distinguished political veteran,

Lord David Owen a former labour

secretary who tried and failed to

change the face of British politics

by launching a new party on the

centre-left. Does the UK currently

have a clue where it is going?

Lord

Owen, welcome to HARDtalk. Nice to

be here.

Let's begin with Brexit.

2018 must be the year deal is done.

An agreement reached between Britain

and the EU 27 on the shape of

Brexit. If it is not done this year,

there will be no time to ratify it

before 2019. Do you believe a deal

will be done?

It can be done and I

think it will be done. I am more

optimistic now that we have a

transition period which many people

called for and I think it is

essential.

Lighted immediately you

did upon the transition period.

Doesn't the idea of one mean that

what we are looking at is a total

barge? In essence, the British

government has agreed will still

play by the EU's rules for two or

three years, possibly more, after

March 2019.

By training I am a

doctorate of medicine. I am an

abolitionist and when you look at

the evidence, people need more time

to adjust. If we had planned

properly for it, if there had been a

government evaluation of what

leaving the EU meant done by David

Cameron's government and we had

gotten plants in place then it could

have been done much quicker. Once it

was clear that the Cabinet was

completely bare and Cameron would

not even remain as Prime Minister,

it was bound to take more time. I

don't think we should expect to be

anything other than basically our by

December 2020. We will be out of the

EU in March... In 2019 and

completely from the arrangement. We

will still be Europeans. We will be

traders in Europe as we have been

for centuries. The emphasis of our

exporting effort will shift but that

has already been shifting. We have

been moving away from Europe and

towards foreign markets for the last

20 years.

We will talk about trade

and the wider diplomatic field in

which Britain will play. To stick

with the process for a moment, you

have written much about it. I quote

you directly, Brexit never was and

never can be an easy decision. It

must be so filled by a United UK.

Only a united country will get a

good deal from the EU. It is quite

transparently obvious that the UK is

not united. Even the Cabinet is not

united over what represents a good

deal for Britain.

I think they are

coming to a better position. It

would be better if they were mourned

United. This issue of Europe has

been splitting political parties

ever since I first became a

candidate for the Labour Party in

1962 when this issue was raised. We

have only had a two referendums,

quite exceptional, and that is a

cost the Labour Party was split,

massively, in 1975 and had a

referendum and the Conservative

Party was split massively and we

have this recent referendum. MPs

show by the day how difficult it is

for them to face reality. They voted

for a referendum and put it through.

You abdicate from the decision. You

passed that over to the people of

the country. They can get involved

in negotiation strategy and some

elements but even as a you are

constrained. It is an international

negotiation between 27 countries and

ourselves. It is not even really a

negotiation. They will come forward

with a framework and we have to

agree.

The referendum clearly was

advisory, that was the nature of

the. Secondly, as the upshot of the

moment. The argument today from many

people in the Conservative Party who

are pro- remain and the Labour Party

who are pro- remain as well is

independent of servers is a feeling

that if the public opinion would

fundamentally shift during the

course of 2018 then there would be

legitimate grounds for a second

vote.

Do you accept that? I don't

believe there would be. I must say

that when a government sent out a

message, paid for by the taxpayer,

to every individual and says this is

your decision and we will abide by

it, I think that the country must

abide by it.

As a Democrat, doesn't

worry you that you guv, which has

been tracking opinion ever since the

referendum, has found recently a

consistent feeling among the rich

public who say they would prefer

Britain to remain and not leave.

There are many different polls on

that but I am not going into them. I

don't enter into the argument about

the referendum. That decision has

been taken by the people. There is a

legitimate argument about how we

negotiate and what position were

dogged by highlighting the decision

is taken. -- but the decision is

taken. A federal Europe was warned

about two years ago. I supported

that. It's not so much about trade

as the fundamental ones that this

country should be a self-governing

country.

Talking constitutionalism.

Usage in the House of Lords. The EU

withdrawal bill is going through the

Commons and it looks as if Theresa

May has cobbled together a

legislative deal which is acceptable

to a majority in the Commons. You

will go to the lords and there is a

strong possibility that there is not

a majority in the House of Lords and

the Tory party is considering a slew

of pro- Brexit peers to ensure a

majority in the Lords.

It has no

legitimacy at all to block a

referendum. House of Lords. It is

the House of Commons who sent it to

the upper house. We are an advisory

chamber who can make sensible

changes on legal issues and there

are complicated legal questions

about this bill which are

inevitable. But they should be

weighed and considered. At the end

of the day, the House of Commons has

to determine the issue. They have to

be very aware, more than they are at

the moment, of the will of the

people. This issue has been with us

for a very long time. In 1975 there

was a decisive vote and it was

accepted. Acyclic, for four years.

This time I think it has surprised

the people who are passionate. I

supported Europe for many years. And

I did not make a U-turn. I did not

even change my position. I oppose

the eurozone. I don't believe you

can run a currency from 27

countries. I did not believe in a

federal Europe and never did. As

Foreign Secretary I put to Cabinet a

paper that was designed to show you

could be in Europe without it coming

a federal Europe. Now with the

French president, very determined

for a federal Europe, good luck to

him. If he and Germany put their

acts together, it is possible to see

a fleece the eurozone countries, may

be a reduced number, effectively

being a United States of Europe and

we will have good relations with

them.

Talking about how that will

work, you wrote a book about the

foreign policy after Brexit.

Someone

25 years younger than me voted

remain and I should think this shows

you can bridge the gap.

That's

unpicked the thoughts behind the

book. You said... This is not in the

book that something you said before

the referendum itself that stuck in

my mind. We will rediscover the

skills of blue water diplomacy and

rise to the challenge of global

markets. It would be the spark we

need to re-energise Britain. A

challenge and an opportunity. Is

touring staff. What on earth is this

blue water that we must see you

speak of?

We do before, we used to

have a worldwide Navy.

This is not

the times of Lord Palmerston any

longer...

Of course not. It is a

modest navy but it has -- is capable

in my view, I don't see them playing

up and down the South China Sea

taking on China but I do think we

have wanted and needed for the UN a

naval rapid reaction force for many

years and I think this could be a

lead role for Britain but with

Commonwealth partners.

But to begin

with this notion of Britain rising

to the challenge of local markets

and a focus on the military because

it seems much more important to

focus on trade.

We am -- we have a

history of merchant trade. We have

gone and opened markets in the past.

You may sound like a rude yard

Kipling novel. The reality is quite

different. -- Rudyard Kipling.

When

I left the House of Commons, I left

it. I was in business in the UK in

textiles. In Russia with steel and

oil and in America with

pharmaceutical industries. I am not

talking completely with no knowledge

of what it takes to export.

And a

fair point. But I'll wonder if you

are reading what those outside

Britain looking in our same.

Essentially key trading partners

with the British government says

they will reach out to extract deals

with. This is what they say. China,

Beijing's state-run global Times...

When Philip Hammond went there just

before Christmas, they said that

uncertainty over the future position

of the UK in global trade in

financial markets will inevitably

have affected the investment and

cooperation plans of Chinese

companies in the UK. India. The High

Commissioner, no less of India in

the UK has said that Britain will

have to accept higher levels of

immigration from India if it is to

have any hope of signing a

free-trade deal with India after

Brexit. This is the reality.

If they

are skilled people coming in to fill

jobs in high-quality areas of

expertise, India does have great

knowledge in terms of computers and

modern science, we should welcome

them.

That you know that most

people... I wouldn't presume to know

what they really felt, but many

people it seems to voted Brexit,

voted on the grounds that it would

reduce immigration, period.

What

they did not want was unlimited

immigration from 27 EU countries

that they had no capacity to limit

or control. We will have to have

immigration laws now answerable to

Parliament that this is not a closed

door. We are not closing ourselves

to people who can help our economy

or help our national health service,

help science. And also to students.

We need to be very much aware of the

balance and immigration has provided

great strengths for this country.

And I don't know of any serious

Brexiteer who believes we will

suddenly stop all immigration. We

need to moderate it. It grew out of

control, particularly where was

concentrated in parts of the country

where there was not enough in the

health service nor education.

And if

you could address my point about

China? In the word of a China expert

here in London he says the Britain

has diminished and isolated itself

in the eyes of the Chinese as a

result of Brexit.

I don't agree with

that. I know it is sometimes said by

these experts but I have watched

little article about it. Just

recently I think in the Telegraph, a

small company in Hastings deciding

to move from 90% into European trade

to move into China. They took an

area of high electronic lighting

equipment and they now sell into

chain hotels and do extremely well

in China.

But we could have done

that in the EU. Germany's trade

relationship with China outstripped

sales because they do very good

exporting stuff. I don't see how

Brexit will improve that.

Why do you take on yourself to say

we are not? What do you know of this

issue?

I'm just saying relative to

Germany...

Why do we spend our whole

time doing ourselves down? Why do we

have day after day newspaper stories

aimed at the moralising, aimed at

sharpening against it? Who are these

people who can't take defeat in a

referendum who spend their whole

time on this issue? There is a

positive story. We are a great

country still, we have a great deal

of courage, enterprise, energy in

our young people. I know you are one

of them who would wish to stay, but

what I would like to see about those

younger people, they are much more,

in my view, turning their hand to

the challenge in front of us.

What

would you call the IMF and the CBI,

and the Bank of England, are these

all part of this sort of doom

mongering conspiracy?

All three of

the people you have mentioned...

Well, they are institutions.

They

were prophets of doom before the

referendum result. Those exact

predictions have not been fulfilled.

And when we are joint bottom of the

G7 and growth?

We have had a

devaluation in part as a result of

Brexit but in part in my view

because we were at an unrealistic

exchange rate. Our exporters are

moving up... I don't really

understand why one should spend our

whole time questioning the very

judgement of the British people who

decided that they wanted to leave

the EU. Is that the role of the

elite? Is this the role of some MPs

who were not able to win? Or are we

prepared to live with the result and

make a success of it? And I really

do believe this requires...

I think

it is important that the future be

considered very carefully, not just

from the point of view of the

politics of Brexit, but from what

those outside the UK are actually

saying and thinking about Britain's

future relationship with their own

countries. To finish...

What I would

say it he read out is a challenge.

And I don't deny it is a challenge.

But what do you think the Americans

are going to make of the UK post-

Brexit? Just to quote you a couple

of important voices, senior Democrat

Senator Ben Carden said recently

Germany post- Britain leaving the

EU, Germany will become even more

dominant in the EU. And he is

looking to the EU first, not to an

independent UK.

Well, Germany is

already the dominant partner in the

EU, it is the strongest country. But

I believe that written will become a

very important, major contributor to

NATO, which will be welcomed by many

Americans. After all, it wasn't just

President Trump, it was president

Obama who told us we were

freeloading, we in Europe, on NATO.

You speak with a perspective full of

fascinating experience. A former

Labour Party from Foreign Secretary,

who decided to leave Labour, you

found it to left wing, to socialist,

you wanted to create a new centre

ground political movement, the

Social Democratic party, for a

while. It was extraordinary popular

but ultimately it was a failed

attempt to break the mould of

British politics. Here we sit today

with a really avowedly socialist,

leftist Labour leader, Jeremy

Corbyn, who says that he now

represents the new centre ground in

British politics. He says he is on

the cusp of a historic victory for

socialism and the left in the United

Kingdom. First of all, do you think

that is true?

I don't think we can

tell. I think that Labour got many

votes, many, many votes, in the

north of England, from people who

wanted to leave the European Union.

And I think that Labour should focus

itself on getting a good result,

leaving the European Union. And I

think all of us should.

It seems to

be Labour's policy is to say, yes,

we are going to leave, we want to

leave, but we want to stay if

possible inside the customs union,

baby inside the single market as

well, and if that isn't possible, we

want the closest relationship

possible and the softest wrecks at

possible.

Well, I want the closest

relations possible, but it is not

possible to have control over the

emigration from EU countries into

this country and stay in the single

market and in the customs union.

This has been made crystal apparent.

And you have only got to see what

President Macron only just recently

criticised the EU for giving as much

to David Cameron in his deal, he

called it blackmail. Now he

definitely wouldn't give us a better

deal than was offered to David

Cameron, and that wasn't sufficient.

So I think...

You have couched your

view of Corbyn in terms of Brexit,

and it is very important. Let's just

leave Brexit aside for a moment.

Well, let me, I didn't answer your

question on Corbyn and I will answer

your question on Colburn. I think he

has got quite a lot running for

himself and his party, and good to

him. I think it is a very remarkable

achievement.

Sorry to interrupt, it

is rude of me, but if you are in

Labour today, a senior figure in the

Labour Party, would you feel able to

serve under Jeremy Corbyn, or would

you walk away?

I gave money to the

Labour Party at the last election. I

am a supporter but not a member. I

am not a member because I don't

agree with quite a lot of its

economic policy. But I do think that

they have shown greater strength. I

personally think Labour is more

right than not on the health

service, and I think this government

is literally destroyed the health

service in England. Fortunately, not

yet in Scotland, Wales or in

Northern Ireland. So I am still a

social democrat. I have never made

any secret of this. I have never

been a Tory, and I will never be a

Tory. But on this issue at the

moment, let me focus. I do believe

the issue for this country over

2018, and I agree with you, this is

the moment where the toughest

decisions are going to be taken over

Brexit, that we should rally as a

country, we should spend our time on

getting the best deal that, that

party politics should slip away into

its normal place, and not elevate.

There will be time of an election,

it might be 2019, might be 2020,

might even go to 2021. By that time,

Labour has the opportunity to

present itself even more

successfully than it did at the last

election, which it didn't win. I

hope they will. I am not one who is

going to spend my Ho, called I'm

telling you that Mr Corbyn will

never be prime minister. I think it

might well be.

Well, with respect, I

did look at your past prognoses of

Jeremy Corbyn, you said you didn't

even think he would lead Labour into

the last election. He said he is a

decent person but I think you will

have to stand down before the last

election. Which you said before that

election.

I did, but I also say

don't create a new party. The SDP

was a great attempt. It is a truth

that Jeremy Corbyn has shown more

sensitivity to his critics from the

right than Michael foot ever showed

in 1981.

What I associate you so

much with the fight within Labour

against so-called militant and

left-leaning groups within the

party, in the late 70s and early

80s. You walked away, you were

described as a traitor by so many in

the Labour Party. And now, Corbyn,

who has a an agenda of

nationalisation, about out because

he is very proud to be a socialist.

You are saying I can sign up to

that, I can even give money to it.

Well, I think the last act of the

Labour government under Gordon

Brown, which was a sensible one, was

in fact to nationalise part of the

railways, when it had collapsed.

That is the second David Gower new

turn. You don't like the phrase, but

you have change position on Europe

from being pro- being in the EU to

being very much being out of it, and

in terms of socialism, and a pure

left-wing ideology, he rebelled

against it, and now you are for it.

I never joined the Liberal Party. I

stayed a social democrat all this

time. I told you, I don't think

currently the Labour Party is a

Social Democratic party, that is why

I have not joined it. But I am of

the left. I am a passionate believer

in the National health service. I

believe that the creation of that

was a great thing. I rejoice in the

fact that my father didn't have too

asked his patients to pay. So on

social policy I have always been on

the left. But I was, when I was

leader of the SDP, and even before,

I believe that we did have to change

trade union laws. I believe that we

did have to change the economy, and

above all, I wanted strong defence,

all of those were challenged by

Michael Foot in 1981 to 1983, and it

took 81... From the time we left,

until 1997 before Labour one. Corbyn

is getting closer to it, and as I

said to you, he has attracted young

people. He has got an increased

membership. You can't take this away

from him.

If you had your time over

again, would you now think

differently about leaving the Labour

Party? Would you have stayed in?

Well, you studied these things, you

know perfectly well I was totally

opposed to the new SDP linking up

with the Liberal Party within weeks

and months of joining. I thought

that was a great mistake. We were a

new party and we should have stood

on our own ground. And I did not

expect when I joined the SDP, and

helped to make it a success, but I

would spend a lot of time arguing

are you or are you not a liberal? I

was not a liberal. I remain a social

democrat, and that means I have to

give the Labour Party might help

where I can, my criticism where I

think it is just, but overall, I am

on the left in British politics, and

I have never shifted that position.

We have two MBA, but thank you very

much for being on HARDtalk.

Thank

you.

-- we have the end there.