Anthony Scaramucci - Former White House Communications Director HARDtalk

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BBC World News. You are watching BBC

News, it has just gone half past

midnight. It is time for HardTalk.

Welcome to HARDTalk,

I'm Stephen Sackur.

The White House has never before

seen a president like Donald

Trump.

He doesn't play by any

conventional political rules.

That much is obvious

from his Twitter

feed, from his hiring

and firing of staff,

and his apparent relish

for

outrage.

My guest today is Anthony

Scaramucci, the White House director

of communications for all of 11 days

before he was fired in a media

firestorm.

But The Mooch has stayed

loyal to his former boss.

Why?

Anthony Scaramucci,

welcome to HARDTalk.

It's good to be back.

Do you believe that

Donald Trump is a

president that the American

people can be proud of?

Yeah, I mean listen,

we're in a polarised

country, so certainly

40-60% of the people

are not going to like

the

president at any given

time, I think that's

been true unfortunately

for

the last 30 years.

But yeah, if you look

at the diagnostics of what's

going on in the last year in terms

of the economic growth, the wage

increases, the fact

that he's tackling,

or at least handling,

are

adverse areas, and trying to build

strong alliances with our allies, I

think yes.

There's a lot to be proud of.

We'll talk economy

and foreign policy,

but I want to begin

with the

style and tone of this presidency.

Arguably the most important

job in the world.

Do you believe that he is handling

it in the right way?

You have to remember,

go back to the campaign,

the candidate then was

in

front of 17 other potential

candidates and the constant

remark...

I don't want you to go back

to the campaign, what

happens...

I think it's important.

Stephen, he would have

never been president...

This whole notion of acting

presidential, tweeting

presidential versus not acting

presidential, he would have never

been president if he didn't

take his combative style into that

campaign, knock out the 17

competitors, knock out Secretary

Clinton, then arrive

in the White House.

The man is the president.

You call it combative

style, but if we're

going to be specific,

we talk

about the kind of behaviour

which leads him in a meeting with

congressional leaders

on immigration to use

a word that I'm not

even

going to use, that is

so directly to so many people.

So disgusting that it has

caused furore around the

world.

Have you ever used that word before?

I've never been president

of the United States.

OK, but have you used

the word before?

It's not a word I use, no.

Even if I had what has

that got to do with it?

Here is the sanctimony

with the whole thing

for me, OK, I grew up

in a neighbourhood, we used tough

language in the neighbourhood

I grew up in.

He grew up in a

neighbourhood, in Queens.

He used tough language.

He's used tough language

his entire career.

So now he's in a private

setting, we're in

this sort of crazy world

now of social media

and constant leaking.

Everybody is now their own media

expert and their cellphone is

effectively a recording studio.

And so now the president

can't have a

private conversation.

He's speaking to the

Australian Prime Minister,

there's three people in the room, it

gets leaked to the Washington Post.

So you're telling me

that President Obama

never used a curse word?

Rahm Emanuel never

used a curse word.

You're missing my point.

It's not the fact that

it's a curse word,

it's the context

in which it was used.

He was basically saying,

why do we have...

I'm not missing the point,

I'm addressing the sanctimony

and the righteousness, OK.

Because what we're doing

now in our society

is we're tabulating every syllable

and tabulating what people say.

We've now decided we want a portal

into everybody's personal life and a

portal into everybody's private

discretionary conversations, and

then when they say something that

isn't discreet, we set our hairs

on fire, we run around the world

with our hair on fire.

Let me stop you.

You've got viewers

that talk like that.

Let me stop you for a second.

What you seem to be saying is that

a comment which in context

was seen to be racist, not just

by his Democratic opponents, but by

Republicans, some of them

in that room as well,

by the United Nations,

by the African nations he appeared

to be referring to...

Around the world the

feeling was this was

racism.

And you're telling me you can't call

up racism when it comes

from the President

of the United States.

First of all it's not racism.

I don't know if you said

it all he didn't,

because I wasn't in

the

room.

There is mixed reports

on whether or not he said it.

Senator Cotton didn't hear it.

Senator Durbin said

that he heard it.

Let's just litigate

and stipulate that he

said it for the point

of this conversation.

The point is, he's not a racist.

I've known the guy for 25 years,

people in our community here

in New York know he's not a racist.

Let's look at some of Mr Trump's

words and actions in the course of

his presidency.

He characterised Mexican

immigrants as rapists and

criminals.

He pardoned Joe Arpaio,

the Arizona sheriff

who was convicted

in

federal court of using,

in an unacceptable fashion, racial

profiling.

He responded to a neo-Nazi rally

in Charlottesville by

referring to some fine people.

When there was violence

afterwards he

said there was blame on many sides.

He retweeted anti-Muslim propaganda

videos from an extreme far right

British organisation.

This is a pattern.

Last week he signed declarations

to widen the ceremony

of the Martin Luther King birthday,

which we are celebrating today in

the United States.

He's got guys like Pastor

Darrell Scott and Pastor

Mark Burns on his side.

NFL football player

Jim Brown said he would be

the quarterback of urban renewal

in the United States.

He campaigned in the urban

areas and said give me a

chance.

And so what has happened now,

which no one wants to report

about, is that African-American

unemployment in the United States is

at the 35 year low.

When African-Americans

like the former

chief of the Republican National

committee, Michael Steele, say,

quote, Trump has captured the racist

underbelly of American life and

given voice to it...

Does that not give you pause?

Well again...

There is a question

on the table about his

style.

There is a 40-60% of the American

people, Michael Steele

could be one of them,

doesn't like his style.

Now we've got to talk

about substance and you have to look

at the substance, as you said,

actions over words.

The guy does not act as a racist.

The policies that he has put in

place are not racist. As I said,

African American unemployment is at

a 35 year low. He is doing something

right in that community. So, listen.

You do not like his style? Most

people, the American media do not

like his style and I understand that

but the style he has got him to the

American presidency. I could be in

the Oval Office with him, I was only

there 11 days but they were pretty

eventful, for me. I can tell you

that you could talk to him about his

tweeting and he would have a joke

about it, asking, did it sound

presidential? I'm an upfront guy, I

am a New Yorker like him and I said

no, but he said, if it sounded

presidential, I would not be the

president.

You have introduced the

melodrama that came with your hiring

and pretty rapid firing as

communications...

It was like a

telephone of other!

It had a soap

opera feel to it. You can look back

on it. It seems that what happened

with you in body is everything that

Michael Wolff talks about in the

book, Fire and Fury. It is about a

White House that was utterly

dysfunctional, chaotic and failing

in its basic tasks of governments.

-- governance.

It is they totally

ridiculous book. I would say that

there was truth in it but why would

he let truth get in the wake of a

good story?

He would regard you as

probably the most preposterous

hiring in the West Wing?

I know what

he wrote about me, God bless him.

The truth was I was in the West Wing

and he wasn't. This guy is a

terrible journalist. I give him

credit that he wrote a salacious and

fictionalised book that he

characterised as nonfiction. And he

got himself to the top of the

bestseller list. He made himself

some money. He hurt you, Stephen.

He

heard me?

Yes, because you are a

credible journalist and he is in

your community.

You went down in

flames having come into the office

and indeed, you told a BBC colleague

of mine that you were sick of the

backstabbing. He said, where I come

from, I am a front stabber and

implying that you would be straight,

you would not indulge in the leaks,

you saw those coming from previous

and Steve Bannon, all of those

around you -- Rhys previous. But you

were saying the most extraordinary

things about your colleagues in the

White House...

You think I wouldn't

say those things to those people

directly? Hold on a second. I said

every single thing that I said to

that reporter to Reince Priebus and

the report directly. I went right

after those guys.

As you told the

New Yorker, I cannot use the phrase

but it involves a contortion and a

sex act...

I used the words but they

were off the record...

Exactly, you

were backstabbing off the record.

I

was front stabbing, you think I

didn't tell those guys to their face

is how I felt?

You were the director

of communications, you were meant to

be putting a new and efficient face

on the White House.

The president

hired me to help him to remove

several of the biggest the cup throw

inside of the administration. Let's

go back to that time -- the biggest

leakers. The warfare taking place in

the months of April, May, June,

mid-July, they were ridiculous. It

was unfair to the president. They

were leaking every bit of

information. The guy couldn't have a

private phone conversation without

it being late. You are trying to

accuse me of doing something behind

their back. I didn't do anything

behind their back. I have met with

them at 9:30am in the chief of

staff's office and told them exactly

how I felt.

And what of staff,

Reince Priebus, got fired...

Don't

accuse me of backstabbing when I hit

them in the face and told them

exactly how I feel.

You were

involved in the firing of Reince

Priebus and he was replaced by

General John Kelly. His number one

priority when he walked into the

West Wing was to fire you.

Absolutely right.

What a humiliating

episode of your life.

In some ways

but understanding in others. I'm an

American business person, not a

politician. I went in, the president

gave me a job, I handled it how a

CEO and entrepreneur award. I didn't

handle it as a deft political

operative. The president told me to

take control of the leakers. General

Kerry is more of a military person

and I am an entrepreneur. It wasn't

going to work. He fired me quickly.

I give him a lot of credit. This is

what is interesting about you. You

call it humiliating, I call it a

reality -based decision that someone

made as they try to reorganise staff

and I took it like a man.

People

around the president, in the

administration, the Secretary of

State, Finance Secretary, former

senior staffers, they all say that

this guy is fundamentally not suited

or fit to be president.

You are

sourcing that outside of the Michael

Wolff book?

Yes.

I know each of

those people individually, I don't

believe they have said that about

the president. Maybe they have but I

do not believe it. People say things

in conversation and it could be

colloquial or joking but what

happens now, there is an open mike

and a hot mike everywhere in our

society. Every syllable is measured

and every syllable becomes tattooed

ink in your forum. I do think it is

a bit ridiculous that we are doing

back to each other at this point in

our civilisation.

In all honesty,

now that you are away from the White

House, does the president have the

intellect and character, and the

temperament, to be

commander-in-chief and President of

the United States.

He obviously

does...

Obviously?

Looking at the

economic and national security and

you picked the responsibilities that

the president has...

There is a

vital point about the state of the

economy.

What about the national

security situation? The North

Koreans are negotiating with the

South Koreans. For 25 years, we let

that go. The former administration

called the strategic patience, the

President of the United States said

no more. He has the bomb, he has the

capabilities to launch a large

mystic missile into the United

States. -- ballistic missile.

When

President Trump... Tweets out...

Saying that my nuclear button is

bigger than yours and it works, he

refers to the leader of North Korea

as "Little Rocket Man", you are

telling me this is part of a well

thought out strategy?

Let me put

your viewers at ease and the global

community. When he is doing that,

somebody like Don Junior or myself,

we look at that and we laugh. We get

the joke embedded inside of that and

get the sarcasm laced inside of it.

We do not Mike Reiner lies it like

liberal journalists -- do not micro

analyses it like liberal

journalists. When he says it is a

bigger button than the others, it is

part of his personality. You might

not like it but he is 71 years old

and he believes, and I also believe,

that he uses Twitter to jump over

mainstream media, to directly

message the people who voted for

him. He will continue to do that.

Use that phrase about the mainstream

media, it's fair to say that Donald

Trump continues to fight a war

against what he routinely calls "The

fake news media". As director of

communications for all of 11 days

but if you were still in the job,

would you say to Donald Trump, Mr

President, it isn't wise to dismiss

the so-called mainstream media as

nothing more than peddlers of fake

news?

Let's offer a balanced

perspective, in the first year of

his presidency, about 73-74% of the

mainstream media is negatively

biased towards the president. That

is an objective standard, not me

saying it. It creates some soreness

inside of the administration but

still, despite that, if I was there

and in the time that I was there I

thought it was absolutely a bad

strategy to declare war on the

media. Steve Bannon declared war on

the media. He made that statement

earlier on and said that they were

an opposition party...

Day after

day, week after week... He describes

the media as the fake news media.

I

do think that unfortunately, until

you are a victim of fake news, you

do not really totally understand it.

You seem to suggest that Donald

Trump's strategy right now isn't

working for him and it is a mistake?

I suggested inside and outside of

the White House that the president

does not need to declare war on the

media. I was only there 11 days but

one of the first things I did was

turned the camera is back on the

lights on in the press room. The way

the system is setup, we have a

fourth estate known as the American

media, the first moment of the

United States, the freedom of

speech, to hand check people in

power. The president is media savvy.

You should take a step back from

that, and say, I can have an

adversarial relationship with the

media without war declaration. What

I am worried about is good news for

the president, he had roughly the

same approval rating is Barack Obama

at the end of the year. You can

dispute the polling but, let me

finish, I will make the point even

better than you would make it. This

is what I worry about. Barack Obama

lost 63 seats in the 2010 mid-term

congressional elections. Some of

that as a supporter of the

president, someone who is a lifelong

Republican, I would make the case

that we had to reinvigorate the

party and switch strategies right

now, because of his popularity and

if it does not improve going into

those elections, they will be tough

elections.

You seem to say if the

Republicans do not find a strategy

of distancing themselves from Mr

Trapp, they will be in trouble?

I

think the opposite, the candidates

who have embraced him have done

better. Those distancing themselves

have done worse. You have to start

connecting now with the American

people and what I am calling the

dashboard of success for the Trump

administration and the Republicans

in Congress. If you do not do that,

history is up against you. If you

look at Ronald Reagan, or Barack

Obama, or George W Bush, I will use

an Obama term, they were all shall

act in the mid-term elections.

You

said that you were a media circuit

when you needed to be and would be

more involved but in every election

capability then from inside of the

administration. Why are you

suggesting that with your record,

and Donald Trump with his record,

Kurt seriously expect -- could

seriously expect to be re-elected?

It would be a landslide real action.

The way that the American political

system works, it is nearly

impossible to defeat a sitting

president unless you have a

calamitous situation like a

depression or a historic rise...

You

are standing with the American

public in the middle of historic

lows!

I said is roughly the same

approval rating that Barack Obama

had...

He may not even completely

first term.

We live in the same

universe, that's why I want him to

fight back and when he wins we will

pop champagne together. He will win

the re-election because he has the

right policies for the American

people and, by the way, before the

cameras were rolling we were talking

about Governor Romney, who I

supported. He was a great candidate

for president but almost impossible

to be an incumbent president in a

rising economic situation. You can

go back to 1880 and it doesn't

happen.

You are an extraordinary

promoter of the Trump cause but I

will end with this quote...

I am

talking facts with you.

This is a

Republican, Senator Jeff Flake, he

has split with Donald Trump, he

thinks that Trump is very bad for

America. He knows that he will not

be renominated.

He cannot get

re-elected.

Because he has basically

killed his own career by making a

stand, he said that there are times

when we must risk our careers in

favour of principle, and when the

Next Generation asks us, why did you

do something? And he means, do

something about Trump, why did you

speak up? What are you going to say?

That I enabled the sky?

Again, you

don't like his style. The senator

does not like his style, I grew up

with people like him, I get the

difference between the brashness and

style and capability and action. I

predict that over the next three

years, the capability and process

and the action will overwhelm

people. He is going to Switzerland

next week, he is embracing the

global community and is at the

intersection of globalism where he

wants peace and prosperity for the

world. He has an America First

strategy for workers. You don't like

his style, I get that. Or his

tweeting, I get that. Senator Flake

does not like it but let's measure

him on substance and when he wins

real action, you will invite me

back. We can have and I told you so

moment, like everyone had when he

they said he would not win in the

first place.

Come what may, we will

invite you back. Anthony Scaramucci,

we will invite you back.

I'm talking

fact promotion, not Trump promotion.

Let's make that clear. Top son of a

bitch, you see why we call him BBC

break balls?