Michael Steele - Chair of Republican National Committee 2009-2011 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk from Washington,

DC. I'm Stephen Sackur. New Year,

same old Donald Trump. Not a day

goes by without any new media storm

over a presidential comment, tweet

or announcement that had Democrats

decrying him at an fit for office

and Republican, well... What? What

do they feel and do about their de

facto party leader? My guest is

Michael Steele, a former chairman of

the Republican National Committee

should the party stand with or dump

Trump?

Michael Steele, welcome to HARDtalk.

It is great to have you here. I want

to take you back to that date in

November 2016 when it became clear

Donald Trump was going to be the

next president of the United States.

For you as a long and loyal

Republican, how did you feel? I

guess the emotion would be, here we

go. Let's strap in and get ready. I

had worked with Donald Trump in the

past, I know what kind of campaign

he had run over the past 1.5 years.

I had predict the his eventual win

early on.

But not in neutral fashion. This is

a quote from you after you observed

one of the later presidential

debates. He said, "I was damn near

puking during the debate.

" Exactly. That is how I react to

it, but had nothing to do with his

ability to connect with voters in a

way that they would several months

later go into the ballot box and

vote for him. That is what a lot of

the establishment and media and

elsewhere did not understand fully

the time was that as much as we were

hair on fire about a lot of things

that you were saying, beneath the

surface, he was connecting with

people in a way in which they found

themselves drawn to him. I step out

and observe that and what I realised

was Donald Trump's voters were once

his audience. So these were people

he had been able to cultivate and

develop a relationship with over a

long period of time before he ran

for president.

And it should be said that you ran

the Republican Party National

committee at a time when Mitt Romney

was becoming a front runner...

Right up to John McCain. The 2012

election where Republicans simply

couldn't find a viable winner, and

Donald Trump...

I disagree with that concept. They

were certainly viable in the sense

that they ran competitive campaigns,

the problem was that the last little

bit, as you know in politics, is

about connection. You can have the

best papers in the world. Hillary

Clinton is a great example of it.

Policy, but at the end of the day,

it's that connection with the voters

that has to be genuine enough to

pull you through, and that was

something that was missing at the

end of both of those campaigns.

Which brings us to the present day.

If you are saying to me that despite

your reservations, which had from

the very beginning, you could see

that this guy had a special ability

to connect. Let us bring it to the

present and ask, what on earth do

you think Donald Trump thinks he is

doing with the messages he's putting

out day by day right now? Let us

start with the first and central

quote of this period, and that is

his remark to a bipartisan group of

Congress people that he couldn't

understand why so many people from

shithole countries were able to come

to the United States.

The Bays have stayed with him

throughout. That is it will stop

that is exactly, his cornerstone for

anything he is able to do. He could

calculate, going into 2018 with 38%.

Democrats are put no-one B so far

who can keep me there. And he

believes, and I believe and it is

public a sad commentary in the main

is if an election is held today,

given the options that are voters

have, he would be in a better

position to win than not. And that,

again, speaks to the fact that

Donald Trump, for everything else

that people don't like about him,

but that core constituency that

stays with him, that's a good solid

base to start from. And so he

appeals to them. Both comments

appeal to those voters.

He appeals

to that basic instinct.

You are that relative rarity in the

Republican Party, a senior voice

from the black American community.

In your view, is Donald Trump a

racist?

Yeah, I think he has racist

tendency. He uses race as a weapon

to divide and conquer his opponents,

to shift the narrative do something

else.

Personally, how do you feel about

that?

It offers... Bothersome.

You are black American. I didn't

vote for the man, so what are the

mean.

You didn't vote for him?

No, no. The former chief Nu were

forced -- refused to vote...

Since before the election, no.

Because I could not... I have a

certain value set, I have certain

principles and have a certain way I

look at the kind of leaders I want

to represent me, and are keeping to

understand here, and this is a

critical moment on the heels of this

recent controversy with the

President, that this is no longer

about Donald Trump. We need to get

over this shock and awe with Donald

Trump. Guess what he said today.

What does this mean? It doesn't mean

anything. He is a 71-year-old man

who was born out of a certain period

of time...

You are suggesting we normalised the

fact that a racist is sitting in the

White House.

We had an election. There is no peat

and proceedings, no 25th Amendment

proceedings, this will revolve

itself at the ballot box in 2020.

The American people have a decision

to make it that time. Whether

Michael Steele fill up a certain way

or someone else feel the certain

way, you can just talk about it. The

key thing is this is less about

Donald Trump and more about the

American people, a reflection of us

and the question becomes, is this a

reflection that we want to continue

to project?

We will get to the American people

and the nation after we talk more

about the Republican Party. Let us

remind ourselves, you speak to me as

a former chief of the Republican

National Committee. What do you make

of the responses to this particular

outrage, the use of the word, it is

offensive but I would use it,

shithole. Other things we could talk

about. What I want to know is what

you make of the reaction of the

leadership of the Republican Party

on Capitol Hill?

It is disappointing. The reaction is

disappointing beyond any measure.

You won't see any real movement

against Donald Trump inside the GOP

until his numbers change inside the

GOP. You have to keep in mind that

members of Congress in a particular

way, they look at their

congressional districts. Donald

Trump is at 60 plus % in their

districts. They are not quoted God

gets that number. I don't want to be

primary in a primary election. They

don't want to be in a situation

where the President is using the

hammer of his office, as we have

seen him do...

My mind is being bobbled, but you

are saying that the top echelon of

the Republican Party is happy to

yoke itself to a racist as long as

they believe that that is in their

political self-interest.

Why are you sitting here, shocked by

it? Didn't she watched the 2016

election? You watched party leaders

admit, yes, what he said was racist,

but we can still work with him. So

what you have two get over your

shock and step back and understand

the politics that is beneath the

surface. It is no stranger. We have

seen this in your own country, Great

Britain, when you look at the shop

and/or the next day Brexit. You have

two understand where people are

coming from and you have to

understand what motivates and move

the political leadership that

represents those people. At the end

of the day, politics is that the

call.

Even on that cynical premise, I

still...

It is fact.

You can also argue in the world of

values and morality, it is as well.

Even either bases you have presented

the argument, I still don't

understand why the Republican Party

is in lockstep still with Donald

Trump. If one looks at basic facts

about tomography in the United

States...

What do you think will happen at

this point? What would you recommend

would happen at this point?

Meaningful distance between

themselves and Donald Trump.

How can they do that?

Mr President, the way you I'd

dealing with these issues, like

immigration, is utterly

unacceptable.

And then what? And when he goes...

So? What do you do then? He is the

one who has to sign whatever

legislation. If he doesn't find the

legislation that she wanted it

passed, or take you are published?

Going back to your notion of what is

in their electoral self-interest,

you have the fastest-growing

demographic in the United States

today, being the Latina Hispanic

community. They look at a president

who on issues like building the

wall...

They voted 30% for him in 2016. I

haven't seen the polling, but given

everything that had gone before, and

certainly with respect to Hispanic

and the issue of the back end, the

policy issue, I'm saying, again,

this doesn't follow any particular

logical pattern. That's the thing

that is so frustrating about this,

because the voters themselves,

that's why I go back to this... I

give speeches all the time. Everyone

is upset about Donald Trump. He is a

reflection of us, a reflection of

where we are.

You say, what could we do, as

politicians or political

commentators such as yourself these

days. One thing you could do, if I

can make it personal, you could quit

the Republican Party until Donald

Trump...

Why would I do that?

Your party is backing a man who you

believe to be a racist.

I could leave and quit and become

like everybody else and leave so I

could stay inside to fight for my

party.

There is no fight, who have given

up. You save there is nothing you

can do.

You are talking about what our

legislators going to do? They are

not going to impeach the man, that

is not going to happen. Get that out

of your head. They will not invoke

the 25th Amendment where they write

a letter saying the President is

incompetent to serve. That is not

going to happen. The question

becomes, how do you get through and

get subsidy policy done if you can,

and how do you, to your point, and

look, I don't want to give the

impression that I don't appreciate

what you say. I do. The question is

there is only so much of this that

is going to get itself worked out

now. That is what elections too.

This November will be the first time

the American people will be able to

send a signal, as we saw in key --

2006 with George Bush, they had

enough with the war and the economy,

they took the house away from

Republicans, they are neglected a

lot of folks, and that is the

trendline I see happening.

Recently in a state of Virginia,

look at what happened. It looks to

me as though in a whole host of

significant races in 2018, if the

Republican Party continues to tie

itself to Donald Trump, they may

well be facing a disaster.

A very male -- very well may be. You

have to learn from the school of

hard knocks because that is what

politics is all about. If you want

to go down this road, you do not

want to, and I agree with the advice

he just gave, I have given this

advice, I have given to folks inside

the White House.

It is personal. At what point, when

the party will not listen to people

like you, and it is relevant that

you are African American, they are

not noted for its sensitivity...

It has nothing to do with that, it

is not I am a black man, therefore I

had to step away. Ira became a

Republican because of men like

Frederick Douglass because of men

like Martin Luther King and others

and certainly Abraham Lincoln, the

founder Robert party. I became a

Republican because of men like

Ronald Reagan, who inspired in me

not just a sense of service, but a

sense of responsibility to my

community, and what we can do to

help the least.

Is it time for more Republicans, who

are minded like you and frankly

disgusted by what they are seeing

from Donald Trump in the White House

to actually say they want no part of

electoral politics right now? I'm

thinking of Senator Jeff Flake for

example who is outspoken in his

criticism of Donald Trump, said

recently there are times when we

must risk all careers in favour of

our principles and now is such a

time, and he, realising because of

his criticising, he was not going to

get the nomination

I think that's unfortunate and I've

said so, I've told him that. Even

though, look, if what you're saying,

Hiro a great book on this, and if

you really believe these founding

principles hold true, you stay in

the fight. What good is it to walk

away and to lessen the authority of

your voice, even though you may lose

your primary?

That's called making a

principled stand.

No, it's not.

Here's another thing he said, when

the next generation, said Senator

Flake, asks us, why didn't you do

something, why didn't you speak up,

what are you going to say?

Speaking

up is one thing, walking away is

something different. My attitude is

you're a current sitting United

States senator who is drawn a very

bright line with this president, as

has Senator corker from Tennessee,

drawn a very bright line with this

president, so you're looking at your

re-election prospects and they don't

look good, what do you do? What I do

is I stay in the fight, I stay in

the fight to make the point because

I've got the authority of my office,

I've got the fire of my positions to

stand in that and go, you know what,

I'm going to use my real election,

I'm going to use my primary as the

battleground for what I believe in

and I may go down in flames but I'm

going to make the principled point

that this should not stand, and who

knows, who knows, you just may win.

But if one looks at recent internal

Republican battles in the state of

Alabama for example, and what we now

see unfolding in Arizona, where the

latest news is that Joe are Payet of

all people, the former sheriff, the

man who was convicted in a federal

court of involvement in racial

profiling, these are the kinds of

people that grassroots Republicans

want to fight for what the party

calls national elections.

We don't

know that because they haven't named

a nominee for the party, Joe has

said he's going to run but that

doesn't mean he will win the

primary, there are other people in

that race, some supported by Trump

people, some supported by the

establishment types, we will see how

this plays out.

Are we not seen, I'm

going to create a phrase of this,

the Steve Bannonisation of the

Republican Party, he's been in the

news recently because the Michael

Wolff book, fire and fury, and what

we've seen with Bannon and he's

fallen out with Donald Trump, but

his point is he's an insurgent, a

nationalistic populist and he

believes his movement is bigger than

Donald Trump and whatever happens to

his relationship with Donald Trump

it's the Bannon politics of

insurgency that will ultimately

drive the Republican Party.

Clearly

there's not a whole lot of life in

that.

Why do you say that?

Did he

elect Roy Moore, is Roy Moore going

to the US Senate? No he's not.

C how

many Bannon acolytes go forward.

Bannon acolytes are second-guessing

their runs because they have watched

this collapse. You have to

understand the truth of the matter

is Bannon has no base, his base is

Donald Trump's base and Donald

Trump's base is with Donald Trump,

not with Steve Bannon so these

candidates that they are putting up

and promoting out there looked at

what happened in Alabama and they

went, I don't think so. There are

already beginning to back out of the

idea of running, this is not going

to go... You're not going to see a

situation where Steve Bannon is

going to be promoting candidates on

one side and Donald Trump is going

to be promoting candidates on the

other, that's a mismatch that

weren't even stand the test at all

because Bannon has no base. What

Bannon has, though, is a populist

idea that has taken hold that Trump

has used to some degree, but even

there, Donald Trump has created this

own space bought himself.

Let me ask

you a broader question about race in

America today and it's something

I've seen discussed in recent hours

in the United States quite a lot,

the idea is that if the Democratic

Party for the next presidential

election comes out with an out and

out left-wing candidate, maybe a

Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren,

and they are running against Donald

Trump, there are people in this

country who believe that whatever

misgivings people have about the

perception Donald Trump is racist,

they would rather vote for a racist

than for somebody who they believe

with their left-wing policies might

affect their economic position and

their pocketbook. Is that something

that you believe?

I think that's

something that's a fair... I think

that's a fair assessment. America's

not a progressive left country at

its core. We're very puritanical in

many respects.

Is white America

instinct of the in your view

dangerously racist?

No, that's a

silly comment to make, that's crazy.

It's a question, it's not a comment.

Given everything we've discussed in

the last 20 minutes.

I'm going to

project all people are racist like

Donald Trump that's silly, next

question. That is silly!

You don't

seemed depressed that roughly a

third of the American people are

still diehard supporters of a man

who you describe as a racist.

I

don't get depressed because I got my

bottle of June, I get through the

day, you know! I'm having fun with

it! Where you're going with that is

just part of a stereotyped view of

America that is... You just need to

get over it.

Before we end just a

couple of quickfire questions about

news events of recent days, one

we've discussed already and alluded

to, the publication of fire and fury

by Michael Wolff. Fact checkers have

had a field day because not

everything in that book is accurate

but nonetheless the picture it

paints of the Trump White House and

the views of people around Trump

that this man is not a suitable

President of the United States, not

competent to do the job, does that

worry you?

Oh, it does, it worries a

lot of people and that's why it was

so important coming in, and I did a

little bit of work on the transition

before the President's team blew it

up, it was so important to get the

right people in the White House, get

the right people in place to help

support... We understood, if nothing

else, that you had an individual

coming into the Oval Office who had

no political established order. He

had no political team, he had no

real political base in Washington

with which to work, no relationships

on Capitol Hill, no relationships on

K street, which is sort of the

financial fundraising part of

politics so the idea was to give him

a team of people and put in place a

team of people, which is why the

positions of Secretary of State and

Department of Defence and CIA was so

important in these critical areas,

to have good, competent people there

who the president would listen to.

The problem, as we've discovered, is

the president does not listen well

and the president in his own way is

his own man, and I get that, but

when you don't have the strength of

a political structure to help you

navigate the Washington and the

responsibilities of the office, this

is what you get.

And we have to end

in a moment but I'm amazed by your

cheerful demeanour throughout this

interview. As a senior figure in the

Republican Party, the party of

Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan,

do you not feel that right now your

party is on a 1-way path to

self-destruction?

Look, I think my

party has not had to deal with a lot

of things that we need to deal with

since Reagan left office to be

honest. This is a just Donald Trump.

The issues that are boiling inside

the GOP have been there since really

the late 80s, early nineties. This

idea of who we are as Republicans.

Republican versus Conservative. Are

be the same, are they different? The

idea of what we believe, what we

stand for, we've watched this party,

to my great frustration, again

prompted by this administration,

move closer towards a blind loyalty

to Putin and Russia. What the hell

is that? Where has that come from?

We were the party that label that

the evil Empire.

Doesn't big

comeback to cynicism? Donald Trump

has delivered massive tax cuts for

corporate America. He has

delivered...

All that was in place

before those things happened. What

you're talking about is post-

administration. He's already been

elected and they move those balls

down the track but that conversation

about Russia in particular, that was

transformative before, that was

something that took place. They

changed the party platform under

Trump's team to sort of embrace a

little bit more of this idea of

Putin and Russia. So what I'm saying

is it's not something... It's not

just tax cuts for the rich, this is

an ideological shift for the party

that has nothing to do with tax

cuts.

But you didn't actually

address my question, if this

continues, is the party facing

self-destruction?

No, I don't think

so. I think the party, like any

other organisation, yes, there's

going to be ripped and tears and

we'll wait to see what the mergers

out of it. That's why are they in,

that's why the fight is important to

me. I'm not giving up my eustachian,

I'm not giving up. The value still

matter and that's what we're

fighting for.

Michael Steele, we

have to end there, but thank you for

being on HARDtalk.

My pleasure.