07/02/2018 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News...it's HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am in

Nairobi. When it comes to politics,

Kenya has a history of violent and

disputed elections. I am at the home

of the veteran opposition leader

Raila Odinga for this exclusive

interview. He has gone and had

himself sworn in as the people's

president in an act which the

government says amounts to high

treason. Is he acting irresponsibly,

is legally and stoking tensions? --

illegally.

Raila Odinga, welcome to HARDtalk.

Honestly, do you really believe you

are president of Kenya?

Do I look

presidential? You are wearing a

sharp suit. I really do believe I am

the President.

If you listen to what

people are saying, for example,

alien FM radio station that supports

the government, they say things like

your so-called swearing-in ceremony

is meaningless. Whereas Raila

Odinga's state house, a farewell

party for you. That is what Kenyans

are saying.

There are a few Kenyans

to say that. Of course it is just a

joke they are making. They know that

the occasion was a serious occasion.

It was aimed at ending the circus of

the elections last year so that we

can move forward. You do not... As

the People's President we have an

important agenda that we want to put

forward in order to bring this

country back on track. There is no

constitutional basis for what you

have done, declaring yourself

people's president and saying you

want to set up a parallel

government.

President Uhuru Kenyatta

is very angry with you and your

swearing-in has been described as a

comedy and a drama. Those who

continue to create drama should be

-- now that they are on their own.

You are an your own.

They are a

comedy. It is based on the

Constitution. We made the

Constitution and ensure that Kenyans

have power with an institution like

this. That is in our Constitution.

The people of Kenya can exercise

their power directly or donated to

their elected representatives.

If

that were the case then you had the

support you claim you have, why do

three of your four coalition

partners in Nassar, the national

super alliance, he opposition

grouping that you head, three of the

four stayed away including you're

running mate. You are on your own.

They do not approve.

Some will say

was taken out at a later date.

But

he did not turn up.

He did not turn

up and he explained why he did not

turn up. I do not want to speak for

him. What saying is that they are

not being there did not reduce the

significance or the importance of

the occasion. They stand behind and

they supported.

When you talk to

people in Kenya, informed opinion

suggest that they did not support

you because they are relatively

young and you are in your early 70s,

they think they have a political

future and they do not want to be

involved in this act that the

government has described as an act

of high treason.

They know very

clearly that if we do not solve the

dispute over the 2017 elections,

there will be no 2022 elections

because if you get away with

stealing and rigging the way they

did the last time, there is no

guarantee that 2022 will be

different. What we're to do is bring

an end to electoral fraud, and

electoral -- forcing and electoral

coup, a coup d'etat on the people.

People voted one way and the

government, because they have taken

the electoral body positive, a

hostage, they impose themselves on

the people. -- taken the electoral

body hostage.

There were two

elections last year. One on August

eight that was declared null and

void because you challenged it and

said there was fraud and the

government, President Uhuru Kenyatta

accepted that reluctantly. October

26 there was a second election which

you decided not to run in. And then

that went ahead and President Uhuru

Kenyatta won that election. The

result was upheld by the

international community, the African

Union said that the result was good.

The European Union, the United

States, the entire world accepted

the validity of that election result

in October.

The Supreme Court, in

making a ruling, said there were

illegalities and irregularities that

influenced the election in August.

They ordered the commission to

conduct an election in accordance

with the law and constitution. So we

asked the commission to sit down and

address the illegalities and

irregularities before the election

went ahead so that we do not repeat

what happened in August.

But,

really, if you had challenged the

validity of that election in August

and the Supreme Court agreed to

rerun it, surely you should have run

in October and if you were unhappy

with the result, challenge it again

in the court.

What would you do in

my situation? When the chairman of

the Electoral Commission himself, a

days before the October elections,

on live television says that he is

unprepared, he is not ready. The

commission in court that a free and

fair election. One commissioner

resigned citing illegalities, and

pressure, saying that four of the

seven commissioners took their

instructions from the state.

So you

do not believe the reforms were not

undertaken and that is why you did

not stand. So now, based on the

result of the August election you

say you are the People's President.

You went to the Supreme Court and

said you do not agree with that

election at all and now you are

saying to us actually, I won that

election. It sounds quite

contradictory, that you are

flip-flopping.

No, no. When the

Supreme Court nullified the

declaration by the commission that

Uhuru Kenyatta had won the election,

they did not nullify. Remember in

the hearing I petitioned the court

to command the commission to open a

server for verification. The

commission refused to comply with

the order. What you have done is you

have seized an opportunity to seize

the server and produce the authentic

results in August eight.

And you say

that gave you half a million -- more

votes than Uhuru Kenyatta. Now,

let's look at your people's

president claimed. The international

community has said that this has no

validity. The chair of the African

Union commission has criticised your

so-called swearing-in and says he

rejects all action that undermines

the constitutional and rule of law.

The US State Department has said

that what it was not correct. The

American ambassador here in Nairobi

has also criticised your actions.

Nobody approves of what you are

doing.

Only you see this in a very

bad light. The African Union. The

African Union have been defending

dictators. In the past they needed

to come in military uniform and

military coup. This year they hold

-- nowadays they hold electoral coup

d'etat.

So the African Union refute

that. How about the American

ambassador. You say you want him

recalled because you aren't happy

with the statement.

Remember, I told

you that a days before the October

election, the commission chairman

said he was not ready. One day

before the repeat election the

Supreme Court was unable to hear a

petition requesting a postponement

because of a lack of proper

preparation. Two days before means

the western departments --

diplomats...

When you go from here?

You you are the People's President.

Use a that we will work like a

government and appoint ministers,

even if we have to run a government

in exile. That is what you said on

January 18 on voice of America.

Those were your words.

What we mean

to say, we have said it clearly.

They refuse us assemblies and we

have had, basically, with various

assemblies, and pass through blood

-- resolutions. Those resolutions

will be taken to the people's

convention that will be held when?

Shortly.

And who is in these

assemblies? The elections in October

were for the National Assembly, for

governorships and so on. Many

members of your coalition, and NASA,

are serving as MPs and are serving

as governors. They are not part of

this parallel assembly and

government that you say you want to

set up.

There. What you are doing --

what we are doing here is setting up

a People's Convention. Having then

taken oath as the People's President

then the People's Convention will

deliberate on the resolutions that

are coming from the assemblies on

how we want matters to be handled.

There are six critical issues coming

up. Electoral justice. Independent

judiciary is. Police reform. The

restructuring and strengthening of

the revolution. The restructuring of

power and, finally, inclusion,

ethnic inclusion in government in

this country.

What will you do? You

set up this convention. What will

you do? March on the National

Assembly and say we demand these

changes? What is your plan? You

don't want to remove Uhuru Kenyatta

from the state house? So you accept

him as president?

Do you accept his

presidency? No, we do not accept his

presidency. Because we say it lacks

legitimacy.

And he says that you

have committed high treason.

Have

you committed a treasonous attack?

No. We have not committed treason.

Were saying that Uhuru Kenyatta is

not legitimate because October 26

less than 20% of the voters...

You

have explained that. Do you want a

third election?

We want another

election.

When do you want that

election?

In August this year.

Why

did your colleague say that the

state has declared war and we will

not relent until justice is

achieved? The state has declared war

on you?

You can see the way the state is

acting, completely against the

Constitution. It set it aside. They

are not being court orders, holding

people hostage despite court orders.

-- are being supplied this includes

your lawyer. These are people who

the government is questioning

because they believed they were

complicit in a treasonous act. No

government would accept a parallel

government.

They must act within the

law. They have to be free until

proven guilty through due process.

The government has to follow the

Constitution. It has no authority to

close all media houses.

They have

reopened two of the three, mostly.

Not all of them.

Yeah, well

CitizenTV is pending.

That was

illegal.

What happens now, that is

my point. You say the state has

declared war. What if your

supporters do not get what they

want?

We have enacted Article One.

Our people will not relent until

justice is served.

Civil

disobedience?

We will, but

everything will be peaceful. It will

be a peaceful protest until justice

is served.

A breakaway republic. You

told the Financial Times in western

Kenya, your hometown, where your

tribe are based, you said the debate

about self determination is gaining

currency.

That is true, Zeinab

Badawi. If you go to most parts of

the country, they will say they will

not accept donation. People will

tell you we do not want to be killed

like rats by the police. That's if

you talk ill of the President. That

is not a good sign of a country. It

is a country in complex.

Precisely.

Precisely.

It needs to be resolved.

1300 people were killed, 600,000

displaced. There is an accusation

against you, I tell you what the MP,

Moses, said, he said in June that

you want to set this country on a

final inferno. Are you instigating

violence?

I have at all times

resisted in attempts to use violent

means to bring about change. In

2007, you saw the country aflame.

One of the people came forward and

said, "No, let's negotiate." I have

offered and agreed to take the

position of a Prime Minister with

the backing of those defeated in

elections.

Are you not acting

irresponsibly? You have a background

of tensions. You have a former chief

justice seen on the fourth of

February I keep on having nightmares

about the possibility of civil war.

-- saying. When you throw your

People's President and parallel

assemblies, are you not fanning the

flames of tensions?

We will use

peaceful protest.

Many people are

trying to take ethnicity and

tribalism out of Kenyon politics,

but he says you behave like a tribal

king and you do play the tribal

card. -- Kenyan. Is that a valued

criticism?

That is preposterous.

Kenyatta knows my political base is

Nairobi, fairly cosmopolitan. This

is my constituency.

Your stronghold,

with the people you have a visceral

attachment to, and they queue, as a

former vice president said of you,

you are a fairly divisive figure

because people who love you, he

says, are indulging in. -- to youph.

And then there is the phobia of you,

your critics.

I beat Kenyatta on the

coast by far. I beat him in the

eastern region. I beat him in the

north-eastern region. I beat him in

the west. And also in Nairobi. He

only beat me in the river valley and

his hometown. Who is more

cosmopolitan? Who is more accepted

by the people? It is me, not

Kenyatta.

People who care about this

issue, like Nikki Haley, they are

calling for a full dialogue between

religious and business leaders and

so on to help create unity. They add

political conflicts and differences

have destabilised the country. Why

do you not pursue that kind of

strategy, say let's come together,

as Kenyatta said in his inauguration

in November, we have to have the

courage to embrace the future and

free ourselves from the baggage of

past grievances. Go down that path.

That is the part I suggested. We

have been talking about dialogue. Do

you know how to resolve this

impasse, to resolve these

contentious issues? Kenyatta is

pretending there is no contention,

that there is no crisis. He wants to

talk about his development agenda,

what they call the Four Point

Agenda. We have issues to talk about

before development. We have issues

of electoral justice. They will not

die away.

The point is the people in

Kenya, one businessman says we are

more concerned about the country not

stagnating. We want the country to

stabilise the. The World Bank said

the legal and political uncertainty

could undermine its recovery. You

are relatively well off by Kenyan

standards, but many people want to

see growth in this country. They do

not want to see it held up by

political uncertainty. That is what

you are doing, prolonging the

uncertainty.

We are not prolonging

it. Jenny will move forward. --

Kenya. The years under Kenyatta were

wasted years. We gave him the

opportunity. But it was all wasted.

Look at the kind of corruption in

the country, the wastage in the

country, the kind of debt burden he

imposed on the people, the cost of

living here has soared so much most

people cannot afford the basics that

they require like the stable food of

the country. Prices are so high.

Unemployment, 40% of the youth are

unemployed in the country.

And

surely all of that needs to be

addressed and not have this comedy

of drama as the Vice President said

of your parallel presidency, the so

called People's Presidency. There

has to be a winner in an election,

and he says you are a sore loser.

That is really hogwash. How can I be

a sore loser when I won in 2007? I

left the loser to proceed as

President. I lost in 1997 and

accepted. In 2013, I accepted the

ruling of The Supreme Court.

So you

are not a sore loser?

I am not a

sore loser. I am a gentleman. Most

people understand that to be

Kenyatta is a bitter person, filled

with emotions, that is why he does

not want any serious dialogue. This

is a serious conflict in this

country.

Mr Odinga, thank you so

much for coming on HARDtalk thank

you so much, Zeinab

much for coming on HARDtalk thank

you so much, Zeinab.