Raphael Tuju, Secretary General of the Jubilee Party, Kenya HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, with me,

Zeinab Badawi, in Nairobi.

Has the Kenyan government

overreacted to the self-inauguration

of the opposition leader,

Raila Odinga, as the

People's President?

Critics argue that its true

authoritarian colours have been

exposed by its response to the move.

It's also put a deep spotlight

on the effectiveness of President

Uhuru Kenyatta's government.

My guest is Raphael Tuju,

the Secretary-General

of the ruling Jubilee Party.

Raphael Tuju, General Secretary

of Kenya's ruling Jubilee Party here

in Nairobi, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Your government's authority

and legitimacy has been

severely challenged,

hasn't it, by the self-inauguration

as the People's President by

Raila Odinga, the opposition leader?

That's rabble-rousing

from Raila Odinga.

We've seen that before, and it's

nothing to write home about.

You've not seen this before, though.

He's never declared himself

People's President.

Well, sometimes you don't argue

with people like those.

I mean, what does it mean

to be People's President?

It's child's play.

And you don't see it

as a challenge to your authority

or your legitimacy?

It doesn't.

It doesn't challenge us in any way.

It's a nuisance, because if there's

a little bit of this rabble-rousing,

he's always tried to have some

rallies in the city centre,

where he can cause

the most amount of damage.

Most of the people who go to those

rallies are essentially

from his ethnic community,

and fortunately, in this country...

You're member of that

same ethnic community,

incidentally, the Luo people.

Yes, but unfortunately that's how

most of our politicians

play their politics.

They gather their ethnic community,

become some kind of warlord for that

community, and they can harass

everybody left, right and centre

using that community.

I think he would object

to being called a warlord,

because he has said that,

in his protests against

the government, he's going to engage

in only peaceful protests

and civil disobedience.

How is the government responding?

You just mentioned that I come

from that community.

I've never known somebody

more violent than he is.

In his own area, the Nyanza,

where he comes from,

there's a lot of violence

in the political process.

There's a lot of rigging

in the political process.

Go to Kisumu and ask

people there if they ever

have a chance to vote freely.

It doesn't happen.

Well, we'll come to that

in a moment, because of course

he says the complete

opposite about you.

But let's look at the kind

of response that your government has

made to his self-inauguration.

The ceremony, the swearing-in

ceremony, so-called,

at Uhuru Park in Nairobi.

What do you go and do?

You close down the three media TV

stations that wanted

to cover the inauguration.

You resist a court order to lift

the ban on those TV stations.

You've only just

partially lifted it now.

That's a little

ham-fisted, isn't it?

Well, let's start with the TV

stations, for a start.

First of all, they are enjoying

a certain monopoly that I think

the office of

communication in the UK

would not even allow.

They control 70% of the viewership,

and 80% of the advertising revenue.

For that reason, they've become

a little bit big headed,

so that they can always

blackmail the government.

When there was an attempt

to bring about digital

migration about a year ago,

they closed themselves for one

month, acting as spoilt children,

throwing tantrums, and this they do

all the time.

So this, it you're saying,

is about their monopolistic

power, as you put it,

or oligopolistic power.

Nothing to do with the fact

they wanted to cover

this self swearing-in?

Because it happened at that time.

Yes, it happened at that

time, and we tried to be

as accommodating as possible

from the government's standpoint.

Unfortunately, they're

such oligarchs who are

used to blackmailing.

Besides, in many ways, the media,

if we do the quantitative analysis

that we have confronted them

with in the recent past,

they all admit that the quantitative

analysis shows they are

biased towards Nasa.

NASA, of course, is

the opposition alliance,

the National Super Alliance...

Not only that...

But it's a free country.

They can support the

opposition if they want.

Which is OK, but I think

it is important that we should

call it what it is.

They are an extension

of the opposition party.

The many journalists who are working

in those stations who are contested

as opposition candidates,

then when they lose in those

primaries, they come back

and continue as journalists.

It is inappropriate for people

who claim to be professional

journalists to take such a partisan

approach, especially

after they have contested seats

as members of those parties.

All right.

So, Fred Matiangi,

the Internal Security Minister,

says that the TV stations have

switched off because there

was collusion between them and some

NASA opposition members to incite

violence, but they are saying,

where is the evidence for that?

Where is the evidence for that?

Has anybody been brought to court

for trying to incite violence

from the TV stations?

You know, you have to understand

this country a little.

We are not a nation state.

We are 42 different nationalities.

It's not like a lot

of countries in the West.

We are trying to forge a country out

of a geographical phenomenon.

This is a country with a lot

of potential to break into civil

strife and civil war.

In fact, it is a miracle that we've

survived for over 50 years

without having a major breakdown

of law and order.

We have four different races from

Africa converging in this country.

It is a very big country.

So you've got the evidence

against these members of the media,

but you're not going to bring any

case against them?

You know, it's much,

much deeper than that.

I've just talked to you about

the media being an extension

of the opposition party.

I can even go further.

That's all right.

There are many countries

in the world, though, Raphael Tuju,

where you have newspapers that

are affiliated to a particular

political party.

Let me finish.

Let me finish.

I'm giving you the complexity

of this country.

You have a judiciary also

which is a reflection

of the society, and members

of the judicial system,

including judges, have been known -

not have been known,

but we see them making decisions

also which are based more

on their ethnic loyalties as opposed

to fidelity to the law.

When you have media

which is an extension

of the opposition and then you have

judges, many of them

who are having more than loyalties

to their tribe than to law,

it's a much more complex thing

to deal with than what you are

dealing with in London.

But the point I am making to you,

though, is your reaction

to this self-inauguration,

by shutting off these TV stations,

has attracted widespread

condemnation, internationally

as well as within Kenya.

Ahmednasir Abdullahi,

who actually represented

President Uhuru Kenyatta

at the Supreme Court last year,

said of your aggressive

stance on the media,

"The whole world condemned

Raila Odinga for what he had done.

"The government had

the high moral ground.

"For me, this is the government

shooting itself in the foot."

He's right, isn't he?

You've shot yourselves in the foot,

the way you've overreacted.

It is an opinion.

The world will be the first one

to condemn and to laugh at this

country if we degenerate

into violence, and even the BBC

would find it very difficult

to fly into this country,

even get a hotel in which to stay.

So, which is the lesser

of the evils?

All right.

I just want to continue

with the conversation on the media,

because, this self-inauguration

aside, there have been a lot

of accusations and reports

from human rights organisations

accusing the Kenyan government

of becoming more authoritarian.

Looking at press freedoms, Kenya...

Now, a Human Rights Watch

report looking at Kenya,

on the targeting of journalists,

logged 17 separate incidents

in which 23 journalists and bloggers

were physically assaulted

between 2013, when Uhuru

won his first term, and 2017,

by government officials

or individuals believed to be allied

to government officials.

It doesn't look good, does it?

Well, I'm not familiar with...

You know the Human

Rights Watch report?

Yes, I'm not...

You should be familiar with it,

because it's critical.

Absolutely.

I'm familiar with Human Rights

Watch, but I'm not familiar

with those specific incidents.

But once again I ought to tell

you that this country is much more

complex than the reports

that you receive.

We have all kinds of NGOs, and some

of these NGOs are family NGOs,

or even ethnic and tribal NGOs,

so the information that they

spew out there is not

necessarily objective.

Human Rights Watch, though,

when it gives numerous reports

of journalists being attacked,

for instance while covering

opposition protests, it's not

an ethnic-based organisation.

But the reporters who give them

the information tend to have

these ethnic biases.

But the worry is, Raphael Tuju,

that if a journalist writes

something that's not

to the government's liking,

they will be harassed.

For instance, Walter Menya,

a reporter for the Nation Media

Group, was arrested in June last

year after he wrote stories

allegedly implicating senior

officials in the use of a foundation

to provide Uhuru Kenyatta's

re-election campaign

with illegal funding.

So that kind of person suddenly

finds they are harassed, arrested?

First of all, what

is illegal funding?

You have to define that,

because we have very little laws

in terms of illegal funding.

But when you have people relying

on rumours, and ruining

people's reputations,

I can even tell you that...

I can tell you that a lot of this

kind of report is usually

because they are an extension

of the opposition, and, for you,

you read a name like that,

and it means nothing to you.

It's just a journalist.

For me, you read that

name, and I can tell

you exactly which part...

The Nation Media Group is one

of the biggest media

groups in the country.

But by you just reading the name,

I can almost really

tell you which is...

But there are so many reports

from human rights organisations.

So you categorically say

that the government is not

harassing journalists?

That they can cover opposition

protests and opposition gatherings,

and so on and so forth?

I can tell you that the institution

which is harassing us

the most is the opposition.

They lie through their teeth.

I was just in a function over

the weekend, and if you look

at the reports that they made

about me, you know, a few days back,

if you look at those reports,

all the papers reported it

differently, because they were all

lying of what exactly took

place, and unfortunately,

that is the situation

in which we find ourselves.

Very many of our journalists

are not properly trained.

A lot of the journalists

and editors are in the pockets

of different types of cartels,

and that extends to a lot

of society, unfortunately.

When you talk about corruption,

we do have corruption in the media.

We do have corruption

in our justice system.

We do have corruption

in the government.

It is a very tough job to deal

with all these things.

We are trying our best.

We're not perfect, but...

Far from perfect.

Yes!

Far from perfect.

Let's look at...

Yeah, but you come from an African

country, or at least originally came

from an African country.

Yes, yes, yes.

If you look at the kind

of freedoms you have here,

compared that to those

you have in Sudan...

Yes, where I was born.

Yes.

But the thing is, violence as we saw

in both elections...

Of course, there were the elections

in early August, and then

the rerun on October 26th.

You know, 92 people lost their lives

in that period, including children,

and this violence has really,

really tainted the victory of

Uhuru Kenyatta, which was accepted

by the international community

on October 26th.

Hasn't it?

Any death is unfortunate.

Unfortunately, a lot of these deaths

took place in the opposition areas.

The strongholds of Raila Odinga.

Unfortunately, we also know that

there's so much violence in that

part of the country,

even during their primaries,

where the government's side,

or the Jubilee's side,

is not involved, people die.

They kill themselves.

And those numbers, those numbers get

into the national figures

as to the number of people

who have died.

And you find that it is ODM

against ODM deaths.

It's the police and security forces,

according to the Kenya

Human Rights Commission,

and Human Rights Watch again say

that the vast majority of these

people were killed by the police

or security forces, either

in crossfire or shot at directly.

Yes.

You accept that?

Well, I don't accept it.

Particularly in opposition

strongholds like Nyanza

in the west of Kenya.

Yes, yes.

In opposition strongholds,

first of all, there was a lot

of ODM on ODM killing

during the nominations.

Those figures adapt to...

ODM is of course one

of the opposition parties.

The Orange Democratic Movement.

Opposition members

against opposition members,

killing themselves.

That is fact.

Nobody can deny it.

But it's also the police.

And then...

OK.

It's the police as well.

I have to say to Raphael Tuju...

I'll go to the police.

No, I want to explain the police.

The police are human beings.

You approach them with cruel

weapons, with knives, with machetes,

I don't think they should be

standing there waiting

for you to kill them.

We did lose policemen.

It would not be allowed in the UK.

It would not be allowed in the US.

When activists from opposition

strongholds, or political players,

arm themselves with machetes,

and swords, and all kinds

of missiles, aiming at the police,

the police will act in self-defence.

By shooting people.

Kenya Human Rights Commission advice

chair, George Marara,

says the police have turned

brutality into a normalcy.

Police have made it their custom

to violate the sanctity of life

they purport to protect.

If you're a policeman and someone

is coming at you with a machete

to kill you, or to take

away your gun so they can use it

to shoot you, I think

you should shoot them.

Raila Odinga says -

told us it's the complete opposite,

that people in Opposition areas

are actually asking for weapons

in order to protect

themselves against the police

and security forces.

Human Rights Watch carried

out numerous interviews

between September and November last

year, during the second election,

and found cases of women reporting

being raped by policemen

and men in uniform.

I mean, there are just so many that

I could just list for you.

You look at surveys.

You know that the police really

topped the survey of having...

People have the least confidence

in them as a public institution.

You, as a government,

have to address this.

I'm amazed you believe

Raila Odinga, but if you do...

Well, it's not just Raila Odinga.

Human Rights Watch.

I keep on saying to you,

these organisations.

Your own Kenya Human

Rights Commission.

I mean, people who were residents

in the area around the swearing-in

ceremony talked about live bullets

being fired at people.

But the police always

are at the butt of every complaint,

but one of the things that people

forget is the number of lives

that the police save.

But, Raphael Tuju, something's

going on in Kenya, isn't it?

In the runup to the August

election, the first one,

we saw that the IT chief

of the Electoral Commission,

Chris Msando, was murdered just

days before the vote,

and his body showed

signs of torture.

In October, before the second

election, we saw another commission

member flee for her life

to the United States.

Something sinister is afoot.

Well, first of all, I regret

the fact that this particular

official was found dead.

He had reported the previous year

that his life was in danger.

We were surprised that somebody

who feels his life was in danger

was in a nightclub until 12

midnight, one o'clock,

alone, without his security,

in a nightclub, and he was having

this kind of...

So nothing to do with

the election, you're saying?

So nothing to do with the election.

What has your investigation yielded?

I'm not in the investigation

unit of the police,

I'm the Secretary-General

of the party.

But I want to say something

about the claims by Raila Odinga

and his ODM team that they won.

They lost this election

in February, when we finished

the registration of voters.

You're talking about

the election on August 8th?

Yes.

Which was...

The result was rescinded

by the Supreme Court.

Yes.

October 26th, the second

election, he boycotts that.

Yes, and do you know why?

I'd like to explain that.

Elections are won during

registration, and because he found

out rather late in the day

that they had not registered so many

people in his strongholds,

he went to court over 30 times

to stop the elections

from happening in August,

on August the 8th.

They tried 30 times.

All right.

But is Uhuru Kenyatta's

victory in October 26th...

How legitimate is that victory?

The turnout was around 35%.

27 constituencies couldn't vote.

I mean, that would surely raise

questions about the authority

of his government at

least, his victory?

I can give you the French

figures, if you want -

they're in the 30s.

I can give you the US figures.

I mean, only 50% of

the people in the US voted.

But 27 constituencies in the October

election didn't vote.

Yes.

The 27 which did not vote did not

vote because they didn't

want to vote, but it was

because the Opposition visited

violence in these places,

made sure that people

could not vote.

The IBC, who were trying to organise

voting in those areas,

they were beaten up,

they were chased away,

and you cannot come before

the law and say, look,

I've stopped people from voting,

therefore people did not vote,

and therefore the election

should be nullified.

He didn't want to be involved

in that election because he said

the reforms that he wanted

at the Electoral Commission had not

been carried out, and therefore,

what was the point of running

in the election?

Amazing.

He should have gone back

to the same Supreme Court,

which had nullified the previous

elections, and complained

about this, but for him

to decide unilaterally...

The Supreme Court has

pronounced itself on this,

and then he says, oh, by the way,

as the Supreme Court was pronouncing

itself on this, they forgot

this particular element,

I'm going to add it

into the conditions myself.

Which law is that?

So what are you going to do now?

The Government's position is that

Raila Odinga has committed

high treason by declaring himself

the People's President.

He says he wants to set up

the People's Assembly,

have a People's Convention,

have a campaign of civil

disobedience, you know,

protests around the country

and so on.

How are you going

to handle all this?

Well, we are dealing

with a very desperate man,

because it is on record,

he said it himself, that this

was his last time to run.

All his colleagues who have

supported him have made it very

clear, and they do have

a memorandum of understanding

that he may not run

in the next elections.

Unfortunately, like all of us,

we are ageing, so he has reached

an advanced age of 74 years,

so this is his last chance.

Will you arrest him?

That's not my province to discuss.

I think that...

But if he's committed high treason,

according to your government,

shouldn't he be arrested?

Well, that is up to the Minister

and the department which deals

with criminal issues to discuss.

So, Raila Odinga's position now

is that he would like the reforms

to the Electoral Commission

and to the judiciary,

and you yourself have said

the judiciary is tainted

by ethnicity, and then he wants

a third election in August.

What's the government's

response to that?

It's like a broken record.

He's been singing that since 1997.

He, in 1997, when he lost to Moi,

he said he needed elections

in 30 days.

To Daniel Arap Moi.

To Daniel Arap Moi.

In 1997...

To Mwai Kibaki.

To Mwai Kibaki, when he lost

in 2007, he insisted that elections

were rigged, so he's never accepted

that he's lost an election,

but if you study the Kenyan voting

pattern, if you study the Kenyan

groups of populations and ethnic

mix, he has no mathematical chance

to win an election.

But has Uhuru Kenyatta been a good

president for Kenya?

This is his second and final term.

When you look around,

corruption is a huge

problem in Kenya.

You accept that?

I accept.

Not done anything about it?

He's had a first term.

He's starting his second term.

I mean, I just give you an idea...

This is a man who

sacked 13 ministers.

Unprecedented in Kenyan history.

He was tough, as much

as he could be.

He says his hands are tied.

He can't do more.

Well, because of...

He is the President.

Well, because of a very

corrupt judicial system.

Some of the people who are

supporting the Opposition have court

cases on corruption,

and they support the Opposition

because that gives them

a chance to go free,

but they have court cases

on corruption, they have filed

injunctions against being

prosecuted, the courts have granted

them this, and these are known

entrepreneurs who are involved

in all kinds of...

In fact, we call them

tentrepreneurs, because they are

involved in all kinds

of corrupt practices.

Some of the worst known thieves

and crooks are members of ODM,

and they are running away

from the justice system.

And he himself, though...

I tell you, though, you're

absolving him completely?

Because I tell you what Herman

Maynor of the University

of Nairobi says.

He says, "When you look

at Kenyatta's big projects

for the country, they look good

on paper, but they suffer

from corruption

during implementation."

He blames the middlemen

and the brokers, but also

the President himself.

He says, "I don't understand why

a man like him, who comes

from a wealthy family,

would allow wheeler-dealers

to tarnish his legacy

through corruption."

I put it to you, Uhuru Kenyatta's

legacy has been tarnished

through corruption.

The issue of corruption

is something that all past

presidents have suffered from.

It is a reflection of the society

in which we live in.

In fact, in a time that

the Opposition has talked

about corruption, I've always

asked him, which one?

The one you were involved in?

The one Raila was involved in?

The one Kalonzo was involved in?

In terms of...

Kalonzo was Raila

Odinga's running mate.

Yes, running mate.

They were all involved.

They all have skeletons

in their closet.

They all have...

And so does the President?

Not that I know of.

Isn't he Kenya's wealthiest man?

Well...

Or at least one of the wealthiest.

Well, I would say so.

I don't know his net worth.

I've never really bothered

to investigate that,

but you can explain where his

wealth is coming from.

He is not a tentrepreneur.

Now...

Is he the right person,

Uhuru Kenyatta, with all this family

wealth, the divisions we are seeing

now between the Opposition

and the Government in Kenya,

and people worried about the economy

and so on.

Is he the right person

really to lead Kenya?

Of course he is, and that's

why I work with him.

Raphael Tuju, thank you very much

indeed for coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you.

PLeasure.