David Smolansky - Former Mayor of El Hatillo, Venezuela HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen

Sackur. There was a time last year

when it seemed that President

Maduro's grip of an power in

Venezuela was loosening. Yet here we

are, two months away from a

presidential election with Maduro

using confidence and his opponents

seemingly in disarray. My guest

today is one diehard anti- regime

activists, David Smolansky, who was

the mayor of a district in Caracas

until he fled the country to escape

a jail term for aiding the street

protests last year. Wide as

Venezuela's opposition so

consistently promise more than it

delivers? David Smolansky in

Washington, DC. Welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you very much for having me.

We're glad to have you won the show,

albeit via satellite in Washington,

DC. How does it feel to be a

Venezuelan, a politician, an

activist who currently is living in

the US capital? Do you feel

uncomfortable?

Obviously it is not

comfortable because I want to be in

the country. I am a public servant.

I was removed from office with no

justification at all. At the same

time, I have prepared myself to be

in exile because I know that this

regime does not tolerate things that

are different.

You were the mayor of

a district of Caracas. A district

where we saw mass street protests in

the summer of last year. The

government accused you of using your

powers to aid and abet the protest

rather than keep the streets clear,

you encourage the protest is to

block the streets. Is that true?

It

is not true. Firstly, our laws and

our Constitution guarantee the right

that any citizen may protest. Every

protest that I had in my district in

Caracas was peaceful. Nonviolent.

The hospital of my town, El Hatillo,

had to tend to hundreds of students

who were wounded because of the

oppression of the security forces.

Maduro does not tolerate any mayor

in the position. 13 mayors in the

last four years have been removed.

We represent 10 million of the

population of Venezuela, that is one

third of the population.

As you say,

the Supreme Court removed you from

office. It did not remove you from

the country. That was entirely your

decision as it became clear that you

are going to be imprisoned for 15

months on these charges of aiding

and abetting the protests, you did

not stay to face the music, you

chose to flee. I wonder, in

retrospect, given that some other

Venezuelans, politicians including

the leader of your own party have

taken a very different decision,

they have chosen to stay and fight,

you regret your decision?

I do not

regret. I went to Einstein for 30

days. When I was there, security

forces were looking after me. My

family was threatened. My team was

also threatened. I decided to flee

the country because I think I can do

more in exile to recover democracy

and freedom in Venezuela. It is a

very personal decision. I do not

regret it and I have a history with

this because of my grandparents who

left in -- Europe in the and then my

parents who left Cuba. I had to

leave Venezuela so I know what it is

to lead a country.

I do take that

point and I am very aware that it is

easy for me to sit in a studio in

London and second-guess a very

difficult decision that you had to

face. I return to the leader of your

party, one of the leading opposition

figures in the country, Lopez. I

notice myself because I visited your

country and had some experience

talking to Lopez's family. He made

the decision to stay and fight. He

ended up in detention for a while

and is currently under house arrest.

In many ways I think many

Venezuelans would argue that that

enhanced his credibility. You were

one of the youngest opposition

mayors in all of Venezuela, a rising

star in the party. I wonder if you

think your credibility, in some

ways, has been damaged by fleeing,

first to Brazil and then to

Washington, DC?

First of all I have

to say that Leopoldo Lopez has shown

courage. He is a brave man, our

leader. He leads Voluntad Popular.

And when I fled I was able to talk

to him and he supported the

decision. I am not the only one from

a political party in exile.

Secondly, I am not concerned about

my credibility because at the end of

the day, you build an ability when

you have clear convictions. My

convictions in Washington, DC,

Brazil or anywhere, if I go, the

same as they are in Venezuela I work

hard to recover democracy, to

recover security and being able to

return to Venezuela, being part of a

generation that will rebuild our

country that is suffering too much.

Your country is suffering. The

economy is in a terrible mess and

poverty rates are frighteningly high

and people are struggling for food

and a sick medicines. Yet, the

protest movement, which was so

strong last year and saw hundreds of

thousands of people take to the

streets of Caracas and other towns

and cities, it has dwindled to

nothing. Why?

Why? Because Maduro

was against the wall and he used

weapons, he used guns and he used

all its and he used all the forces

to keep power. Last year I was on

those protest. 120 consecutive days,

we were on the streets nonviolently

and over 130 people were killed. As

a mayor I had to bury five of them.

The world needs to understand that

Venezuelans, the vast majority,

disapprove of this regime. We have

not been able to change Maduro

because he is using weapons to keep

power and unfortunately part of the

armed Forces, part of the Armed

Forces are a political party with

weapons which is something dangerous

for people, as I said before, for

people who are suffering and have to

flee the country.

You say the world

needs to understand. I think one

thing the world are struggling to

understand is what exactly the

strategy of the opposition is. I am

looking at quotes here from the man

we discussed earlier, Leopoldo

Lopez, also a mayor, another mirror

of Caracas and another opposition

leader. All of them were saying last

year that these protests will

continue until we bring Maduro now.

That there we have it, Nicolas

Maduro is still in power. There are

no more street protests and the

opposition just last week was

actually in a dialogue, and

negotiation with Maduro. So what is

the strategy today?

First of all we

have had protest. Just different

protest to the once we had last

year, they were political protest

last year but if you see the protest

we have had in 2018, it is desperate

people looking for food, looking for

medicines and Maduro has also

oppressed innocent people. Second,

the negotiations and the Dominican

Republic um which, I must say, I

disagree and in my opinion that was

a regime strategy to gain time to

keep power, at the end of the day it

did not have any agreement. The

opposition went, they did not sign

an agreement because we do not have

free elections. The majority of the

candidates Irene exile, in jail,

they are ruled out to compete. The

political party has been utilised so

you cannot go to an election where

the only one who can compete is

Nicolas Maduro with a referee

playing for him.

Isn't this the

point I am getting at? There is deep

division and some might say chaos

within the opposition. You have an

opposition leader who was adamant

that they should go to Dominican

Republic and six law possibilities

with the regime and then you have

others like yourself saying no, that

is a crazy idea. There is no

strategy or vision within the

opposition.

I say this after the

dialogue, as someone who is in power

with a political party, you must be

disciplined and I was. Unfortunately

there was no agreement at all. I

must say something. I think media,

and the international community, all

the time are talking about the

different criteria that the position

has which in my position is good

because that is democracy. No-one is

talking about the divisions in the

regime. The Minister of Justice,

Torres, he left the political party

of the regime. And it is critical to

the regime. I look more to the

fractures in the regime. In my

opinion it is good to have different

criteria from the opposition but I

agree with you that we need to have

one strategy. And our strategy at

the moment is that we are not going

to elections because there is no

guarantee. It is not free, it is not

fair and as I said before, the

candidates Irene exile, imprisoned

or unavailable.

But that would be a

big mistake because Nicolas Maduro

is now adamant that the elections

will happen on April 22. He says,

and I quote, we should be united as

Venezuelans, putting aside our

differences, putting our country

first and showing what really unites

us. He says he welcomes a challenge

from anybody in the opposition who

chooses to stand against him for the

presidency. It is not going to look

good, when you are the champions of

democracy and yet you refuse to take

up this opportunity to defeat Maduro

at the ballot box.

Are you a

champion of democracy if you go to

an election that is democratic. We

do not have that in Venezuela

because there is no independent

institution and as I said before,

the political party for the

opposition and candidates are ruled

out thickly must be coherent. And to

be coherent is to say we can go to

the election unless we have the

conditions. Were not alone in that.

France, Spain, the United States,

Canada even Colombia have said that

they will not recognise elections in

Venezuela. Last week, the European

Parliament um with a landslide 480

votes in favour, condemned that call

for election and said that sanctions

must be expanded after those

sanctions. -- so almost nobody in

the world is recognising the

election that we are having in

Venezuela.

Is one of the problems

here that despite the massive

economic problems facing ordinary

Venezuelans, many of your countrymen

and women do not trust the various

leaders and figures in the

opposition to deliver a better,

fairer Venezuela than the current

regime of Maduro? I will quote you

one respected analyst of Venezuelan

who lives here in London at the

University of Lund. He said this.

The majority of Venezuelans fear the

return of the right wing to power,

more than the alleged incompetence

of Maduro.

The majority of Venezuelans are

surviving. Fortunately, people are

not leaving Venezuela that the

people are surviving. The majority

of Venezuelans wake up every day

looking at what they will have for

breakfast, the majority go to bed

very worried because they do not

find a medicine to cure a member of

their family.

I know that to be true

because I have seen it for myself.

Yeah.

My point is many of the

poorest people in Venice do not see

that the opposition coalition groups

have an agenda which is more likely

to deliver them an easier and better

life than the Xavi state government.

-- Venezuela. -- Chauvista.

We had

demonstrations last year. That was

the last chance to have free and

fair elections. We're not going this

election. And is now we are

discussing in different ways how to

face these challenges. Do you want

to hear my opinion? I will tell you

on this programme. My opinion is

that we need to go to an election by

ourselves, as we did last year on

the 16th of July. You can correct

me, but we need to do that. We need

to elect our president, our vice

president, the Minister of Foreign

Affairs, someone responsible for the

economy, and we have something

really unique in our dictatorship.

We still have a parliament. And that

Parliament could swear in the new

president.

OK, imagine you did that.

What policies would you actually

pursue? I want to put you on the

spot on one particular Wallasey, and

that is, would you back much tougher

international sanctions? -- policy.

United States, where you are today,

for example, they are going to

deepen the sanctions regime to stop

it targeting known individuals at

the top of the regime and actually

consider an oil embargo. Now, what

would you as an opposition figure in

America, what would you say to the

idea of that kind of much more tough

sanctions regime imposed by the

United States?

OK, let me go part by

part first, it would not be that

symbolic. It would have the support

of the people, the support of the

Parliament, and the support of

international communities. We could

get Maduro against the wall again.

Second, I think that it is important

to keep the sanctions, not only from

the United States and Canada, I

think it is important what the

European Union said last week. And

also, something I would like to

propose, Latin American countries

that could, for example, restrict

the, umm, flights that some of the

high officials do in Latin America.

That would be really important.

Because many of the high officials

and their families have their

properties and bank accounts in

Latin America. And third, the oil

embargo. I mean, the oil embargo is

something that, it sounds, in my

opinion, out of context in this

moment. Why is that? Venezuela has,

as you know, the biggest oil

reserves in the world. We should be

exporting at least five or 6 million

barrels a day. Now we are exporting

just a million. I mean, the person

that has embargoed our country is

destroying Venezuela.

You are in

Washington, DC. Have you had contact

with Senator Marco Rubio from

Florida?

I have not talked to him

personally. I have just been in

Washington for three months. So I

have had talks with the, umm, part

of his staff, but I have not known

him personally.

But his staff, the

other day Rubio tweeted this. The

world would support the armed forces

in Venezuela if they decided to

protect the people and restore

democracy by removing this dictator.

You support that kind of language

coming from American politician?

I

think what is really important for

Venezuelans is we need to persuade

our soldiers to be institutional.

Unfortunately, our Venezuela right

now has 2000 generals, that is more

than the whole navy. And those 2000

generals are allegedly linked to

things very dangerous such as

trafficking, money laundering, and

corruption. But the low and middle

range of our soldiers are suffering

like any other Venezuelan. They

suffer from hyperinflation, 70- 80%.

If we persuade them to be

institutional, to obey the laws in

the Constitution, I think we can

have a change in Venezuela.

You have

not really answered my question so I

will ask it again, this time with

the words of Secretary of State Rex

Tillerson. He said in the history of

Venezuela and other South American

countries, oftentimes the military

is the agent of change when things

are very bad. A clear implication he

thinks that time has come in

Venezuela. I put it to you again.

The Americans at the very top level

are suggesting the time has come for

an army rebellion against the

regime. Do you back those calls? Are

you pleased the Americans are using

the language?

As I said before, I

mean, I would not get to the play of

words. What I am clear, and as

someone who had to work with police,

and we had to work sometimes with

the National Guard, we need our

soldiers to obey the Constitution.

We need our soldiers to obey the

laws. We need them to be

institutional. And if they...

What

you are repeatedly avoiding is any

mention of the US role. People like

you and the opposition who end up in

Washington, DC are painted by Maduro

and his allies as people who are

fellow travellers with imperialismo,

traditional US interference in

Venezuelan affairs that be if you

cannot defend that language from

Washington, perhaps Maduro has a

point.

As I said before, I do not

have any problem to repeat that we

need to persuade our soldiers to be

institutional. The problem is that,

in the history of Latin America, we

have talked all the time about coup

de tat. In my opinion, in Venezuela,

we have continuous coup de tats. For

example, the election on April 22 to

be historically, presidential

elections are always at the end of

every year and are called six months

before -- 22nd. So when I say that

we need to persuade our soldiers to

be institutional, umm, I do not

regret that. And to be in the United

States and called imperialist, that

is something that, to be honest with

you, I do not want to sound rude, I

do not care, because the country has

intervened with Cubans, the Chinese

and Russians also playing very hard

in our country, taking our oil. The

problem in Venezuelan needs to be

solved by Venezuelans, but at the

same time, when it help from the

international community, especially

to recover the economy and solve the

humanitarian crisis.

We will end

with this point. You have been

sitting in Washington for the last

three months doing the best to play

an external political role, raising

the profile of the opposition

campaign against Maduroyou

disappointed with the international

community. Russia, China, China,

they are still backing Maduro. Many

leftists in Latin America and Europe

and elsewhere still backing Maduro.

Are you fundamentally disappointed?

I am not at all. I have to say the

international community has been

really active in Venezuela,

especially in the last month. Just

what you saw in the European

Parliament last week, 480

parliamentarians voted condemning

the call to elections in Venezuela,

including, including, left-wing

political parties. When you see

president Santos saying they will

not recognise those elections, but

Venezuelans are fleeing. For the

first time, I feel for the first

time we are not alone, we are not

isolated as the opposition, and we

have to see that the things going on

in Venezuela is not a threat to

Venezuelans. The regime of Maduro is

the biggest crisis in the Western

Hemisphere and threatens

Venezuelans.

We have the end of

there. But thank you very much for

coming on HARDtalk thank you very

much for having me.