Stephen Sackur speaks to Boris Titov, leader of Russia's Party of Growth. Does Russia need reform rather than authoritarianism?
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55% of the ballot. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:02 | |
It's just gone half past
four in the morning. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
Now on BBC News it's
time for HARDtalk. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:13 | |
Welcome to HARDtalk I Stephen
Sackur. Seven candidates are | 0:00:13 | 0:00:17 | |
challenging Vladimir Putin in this
month's Russian presidential | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
election. Not one of them has a hope
of victory. To all intents and | 0:00:21 | 0:00:25 | |
purposes, this is a show election to
confirm the popularity and power of | 0:00:25 | 0:00:31 | |
Vladimir Putin. But is there a
danger for Russia in this | 0:00:31 | 0:00:37 | |
urbanisation of politics? My guest
is one of the seven hatless are that | 0:00:37 | 0:00:41 | |
candidates. Boris Titov, a Vladimir
Putin appointee for business. Does | 0:00:41 | 0:00:47 | |
Russia need reform rather than
authoritarianism? Party of | 0:00:47 | 0:01:20 | |
-- Boris Titov in Moscow, welcome to
HARDtalk. . You are going to be in | 0:01:23 | 0:01:29 | |
the election that comes ahead in
just a few days from now. To the | 0:01:29 | 0:01:33 | |
outside world, it looks at the
charade, a mockery of a democratic | 0:01:33 | 0:01:37 | |
process. Is that the way it feels to
you? No, it is a democratic process | 0:01:37 | 0:01:42 | |
because we are all by our own world
participating in it. But of course | 0:01:42 | 0:01:47 | |
the popularity of Vladimir Putin is
very high, and that is why we, of | 0:01:47 | 0:01:51 | |
course, understand that the chances
are very low. Our chances are very | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
low. You are not really a serious
candidate, are you? Because during | 0:01:55 | 0:01:59 | |
the course of the campaign, you have
said that as hang on... I am a | 0:01:59 | 0:02:04 | |
serious man. I am a businessman. By
the way a British businessman. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:09 | |
Because I started my career and 89
in London. Yes, well... Two 1989. In | 0:02:09 | 0:02:17 | |
99. You said ombudsman. Not a
serious man. I don't think is | 0:02:17 | 0:02:23 | |
serious man could handle this job.
It is a serious job. You said I am | 0:02:23 | 0:02:31 | |
that it hidden's ombudsman. The fact
is yes. But, I mean, in reality, I | 0:02:31 | 0:02:36 | |
am protecting the rights of
businessman from the state of | 0:02:36 | 0:02:41 | |
Russia. Because in very many cases,
are - they're using administrative | 0:02:41 | 0:02:50 | |
law, criminal law, corruption. So I
am protecting our businessmen from | 0:02:50 | 0:02:56 | |
the Russian state. Boris Titov, I
would want to get to your job. But | 0:02:56 | 0:03:04 | |
even want to offend you. I didn't
want to say you were a serious man, | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
what wanted to say you were not a
serious candidate. The Rizzo said | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
that is because you have publicly
said, you know, but it didn't is the | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
toughest politician of our day. --
Lammy Purdon is the toughest | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
politician Barrett day. -- Vladimir
Putin. Of course he has a great | 0:03:18 | 0:03:32 | |
strength against us. But ever
understand is why we are | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
participating in these elections.
Us, it is very important, this move. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
We were thinking as a group of
businessman in our union of non- oil | 0:03:39 | 0:03:50 | |
business of Russia, who are
supporting me. And we were thinking | 0:03:50 | 0:03:54 | |
prolonged time to go for the
selection or not, but we decided to | 0:03:54 | 0:03:59 | |
do it. Why? Because we need to
promote our ideas. The idea that we | 0:03:59 | 0:04:05 | |
have is a strategy for Russia. We
are the best macroeconomic and | 0:04:05 | 0:04:13 | |
scientists in Russia and developed a
programme and this is a very | 0:04:13 | 0:04:20 | |
profound programme. A real strategy.
We prepared it for two years. The | 0:04:20 | 0:04:25 | |
main idea is that we have to change
the economy of Russia. We have to go | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
from today's oil economy, resource
economy, to a real market economy. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:36 | |
We had to promote small and medium
businesses. We have two promote | 0:04:36 | 0:04:42 | |
industrial, technological
businesses. We have two make the | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
country know about that. Yes, but
the point... Let me stop you, let me | 0:04:46 | 0:04:51 | |
stop you for a second. You say you
are full of important economic lives | 0:04:51 | 0:04:56 | |
is due to make I'm sorry. No, don't
worry. You tell about these ideas of | 0:04:56 | 0:05:02 | |
modernising Russia, and you say that
you, I can make this point, you note | 0:05:02 | 0:05:09 | |
the election is a stride. But it
Purdon has not released a manifesto. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:14 | |
-- Vladimir Putin. It is not regard
you are serious. The in the Kremlin | 0:05:14 | 0:05:21 | |
wanted for you and others... Let me
finish my point. You were to stand | 0:05:21 | 0:05:29 | |
as a figleaf to give the impression
that they were some sort of choice. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:34 | |
I am sorry. The Kremlin did not want
me to stand. The only question that | 0:05:34 | 0:05:41 | |
I asked the Kremlin, because I am
working in the Kremlin | 0:05:41 | 0:05:48 | |
administration, so the only thing
which I asked was it would be a | 0:05:48 | 0:05:52 | |
conflict of interest. Allow to leave
my day to day job to run for the | 0:05:52 | 0:05:57 | |
election? They said, OK, we thought
it was not a conflict of interest, | 0:05:57 | 0:06:01 | |
science still giving the job and
going for a elections. Otherwise, I | 0:06:01 | 0:06:05 | |
would have to decide, because it is
a big chance that I would have left | 0:06:05 | 0:06:09 | |
the job to run for the elections.
Alexei Navalny is by far the most | 0:06:09 | 0:06:15 | |
prominent opposition voice in Russia
today. He wanted to run in the | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
election. He was barred from running
on the basis of a conviction on | 0:06:20 | 0:06:25 | |
jumped up charges which were
condemned by the European Court of | 0:06:25 | 0:06:29 | |
Human Rights has been completely
unacceptable, and after that, Alessi | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
Davante said to all Russians,
please, do not vote. -- Alexei | 0:06:33 | 0:06:38 | |
Navalny. He said that it meant
fixing Vladimir Putin's problem by | 0:06:38 | 0:06:44 | |
helping in disguise his appointment
by making it look like serving like | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
a proper election. Why did you not
heed his words? Because if beverage | 0:06:47 | 0:06:53 | |
will go for the polls, but it Purdon
will win with 100%. Those who are | 0:06:53 | 0:07:04 | |
not agreeing with the economic,
don't agree with the economical, if | 0:07:04 | 0:07:12 | |
they will not go, the country and
Vladimir Putin will think that | 0:07:12 | 0:07:17 | |
everyone supports him. Even 10% of
people, 15%, 20%, they will come and | 0:07:17 | 0:07:25 | |
they will say we are voting for
other people as candidates. So we | 0:07:25 | 0:07:30 | |
will see the picture, the social
picture in Russia, the picture of | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
opinions in Russia. So Alexi Diwali,
of course, we can talk about his | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
legal situation. Only about 1.5 or
2% of people support him. With | 0:07:40 | 0:07:53 | |
respect, your current poll standing
is less than 1%, so... I won't | 0:07:53 | 0:08:01 | |
compete with Alexei Navalny. We'll
see final stand. At least in one | 0:08:01 | 0:08:10 | |
week, you will see our result. Of
course we are not professional | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
politicians. We are professional
economists. But anyway, Alexei | 0:08:13 | 0:08:18 | |
Navalny asked his supporters, and he
had to make them come and vote for | 0:08:18 | 0:08:27 | |
him or if you can't vote because he
was legally not in the list, but | 0:08:27 | 0:08:34 | |
there were other possibilities to do
that. So I think that we had to have | 0:08:34 | 0:08:40 | |
more competition at every social
group supporting any candidate and | 0:08:40 | 0:08:44 | |
having the right to have very
candidate and to come and vote. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:48 | |
Boris Titov, we will talk economy,
because that is a real interest. But | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
before we do that, we need to talk
about what Vladimir Putin seems to | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
regard as the most important message
in the election. And that is his | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
message on foreign policy. A
bellicose, assertive, big message to | 0:08:59 | 0:09:04 | |
the Russian people about restoring
Russian pride and taking on Russia's | 0:09:04 | 0:09:08 | |
enemies wherever they may be. Do you
support that element of let me | 0:09:08 | 0:09:14 | |
Purdon's message? That is not the
message he gives to the Russian | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
people. Mostly the message is for
the West. And this message could be | 0:09:17 | 0:09:25 | |
read as you don't want to talk to us
when we are weak. We think that you | 0:09:25 | 0:09:30 | |
will talk with us when we will be
strong. I think the perception of | 0:09:30 | 0:09:36 | |
the situation in the world is
different, between the Western | 0:09:36 | 0:09:41 | |
Vladimir Putin. He thinks the West
made many mistakes against Russia. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
-- between the West and that it had.
I partly agree with that. Because in | 0:09:45 | 0:09:51 | |
the 90s, the West did not support
them in the Democrat presses. We | 0:09:51 | 0:09:59 | |
thought there would be huge
educational programmes. Thousands of | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
Russians will go to the West to
learn about democracy and the market | 0:10:02 | 0:10:09 | |
economy seat done. Of course,
Vladimir Putin considers as not | 0:10:09 | 0:10:20 | |
understanding of the Russian
interest in the world. -- on the | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
market economy. Sorry to interrupt.
I don't mean to be rude. There is a | 0:10:23 | 0:10:31 | |
time delay on the line and is the
ant is too long, we will not get | 0:10:31 | 0:10:35 | |
through all of the important issues
that we need to get through. On this | 0:10:35 | 0:10:39 | |
point, I am mindful that you are an
opposition candidate tried to remove | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
Vladimir Putin from the Kremlin. But
your message to the outside world is | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
what? That you support his invasion
and annexation of Crimea? That you | 0:10:46 | 0:10:50 | |
support Russian trips in eastern
Ukraine? That you support the | 0:10:50 | 0:10:56 | |
intervention... -- Russian troops.
Two I support some things and not | 0:10:56 | 0:11:01 | |
others. -- I support something.
Crimea was never Ukrainian. The | 0:11:01 | 0:11:11 | |
mistake was made by Boris Yeltsin
when they didn't even consider the | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
issue of Crimea when they signed the
agreements. Because nobody even | 0:11:16 | 0:11:23 | |
thought that Crimea is Ukrainian at
that time. And he just let it go | 0:11:23 | 0:11:28 | |
without any - without even putting -
because he was so fast and hard to | 0:11:28 | 0:11:33 | |
move these agreements forwards
because he wanted to be the | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
president of Russia. He was the
president of Russia, but it was | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
Gorbachev who was the president of
the soviet union. In order to push | 0:11:41 | 0:11:46 | |
through the agreements and just
destroy the soviet union. I want | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
your view on selling top level in
the United Kingdom today. And that | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
is the very mysterious illness, the
critical honours, a rational double | 0:11:53 | 0:12:07 | |
agent in hospital fibrous life
alongside his daughter. Sergei | 0:12:07 | 0:12:14 | |
Skripal was seen to be working for
the UK, went to Russia, then was | 0:12:14 | 0:12:22 | |
sent to the UK any spy swap. That
was not a question, that was a | 0:12:22 | 0:12:27 | |
position. Do you think Russia's
response will for what has happened | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
to Sergei Skripal? And have nothing
to do without, and I can say that | 0:12:30 | 0:12:35 | |
you do not speculate on that. It you
start speculating, even if they did | 0:12:35 | 0:12:42 | |
not give his declination what
happened. There was no investigation | 0:12:42 | 0:12:49 | |
about that. Why we should put
everything on the hard side? Why | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
should we think about the enemy
psychology from the first thing, | 0:12:53 | 0:12:58 | |
from the first thing? Will never
agree on anything. We will never | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
agree on anything. We might want to
think about Vladimir Putin's | 0:13:01 | 0:13:06 | |
responsibilities, because you might
think that in 2010... You have | 0:13:06 | 0:13:12 | |
already jetted about that. Not at
all. Had he respond to this? If you | 0:13:12 | 0:13:17 | |
don't mind, let me ask the
questions. Back in 2010, at the time | 0:13:17 | 0:13:21 | |
of the spy swap, Vladimir Putin said
traders were kicked the bucket. They | 0:13:21 | 0:13:27 | |
have betrayed their friends for 30
pieces of silver and they will choke | 0:13:27 | 0:13:33 | |
on them. Of course, many people are
wondering whether Vladimir Putin... | 0:13:33 | 0:13:36 | |
I haven't heard this expression, but
I cannot comment on that. I never | 0:13:36 | 0:13:42 | |
had anything to do with spy
investigations or spy works. So let | 0:13:42 | 0:13:49 | |
me free-to be free out of these
questions. I want to talk about the | 0:13:49 | 0:13:54 | |
economical side. What I will you if
I may, the world is very small. | 0:13:54 | 0:14:04 | |
Before we talked and signed the
agreements with you, before that, | 0:14:04 | 0:14:14 | |
Churchill and Stalin signed the
agreement and further agreements | 0:14:14 | 0:14:20 | |
post-war. For together against their
enemies. Now we need to find ways to | 0:14:20 | 0:14:29 | |
meet each other. I understand your
point, Boris Titov, but it is not | 0:14:29 | 0:14:33 | |
working away, right now, because of
Russia's actions in Ukraine and | 0:14:33 | 0:14:36 | |
elsewhere. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:42 | |
When Hughes start your question...
What is the right word in English? | 0:14:42 | 0:14:49 | |
With accusations and not trying to
find | 0:14:49 | 0:14:51 | |
With accusations and not trying to
find the right way to find each | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
other. Boris Titov, UKIP trying to
tell myself you're an opponent of | 0:14:53 | 0:15:04 | |
Putin? I am an opponent of Putin but
IME favour of Russia. When I see | 0:15:04 | 0:15:15 | |
what happened, I have been living in
London for many years. I'd children | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
have British passports and what I
see now happening... Did not know | 0:15:18 | 0:15:24 | |
what to call it, it is a circus or
whatever, that people just do not | 0:15:24 | 0:15:29 | |
talk to each other, this is complete
nonsense. You want reform, you want | 0:15:29 | 0:15:36 | |
to open up the Russian economy,
modernise it and massive | 0:15:36 | 0:15:41 | |
international investment in Russia
but do you not see it with the | 0:15:41 | 0:15:44 | |
attitude of Vladimir Putin right
now, you are not going to get any of | 0:15:44 | 0:15:49 | |
that. You are going to get
sanctions, more international | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
isolation and less investment...
Maybe you think like that but with | 0:15:52 | 0:15:58 | |
more free economy in Russia, there
will be investment and foreign | 0:15:58 | 0:16:03 | |
investment. The politics are
politics but we know, we're | 0:16:03 | 0:16:07 | |
practical people, businessmen, we
know that, to the Soviet Union, | 0:16:07 | 0:16:13 | |
there was foreign investment from
written, they were coming because, | 0:16:13 | 0:16:19 | |
if there was a trust even at that
time, we can talk, and when we talk | 0:16:19 | 0:16:26 | |
figures, investments, mutual
projects... In fact, it is going the | 0:16:26 | 0:16:34 | |
other way. It is not going the other
way. ExxonMobil just pulled out of a | 0:16:34 | 0:16:42 | |
major joint venture because of the
sanctions. Both the UN and US are | 0:16:42 | 0:16:49 | |
talking about strengthening
sanctions. I just had lunch in | 0:16:49 | 0:16:53 | |
McDonald's. We have all the main
brands staying in Russia. I hope you | 0:16:53 | 0:16:59 | |
enjoyed your burger but the fact
that... I like... And the fact is | 0:16:59 | 0:17:06 | |
quite simple, you can eat as many
cheeseburgers as you like but | 0:17:06 | 0:17:12 | |
foreign direct investment in Russia
has plummeted in recent years and | 0:17:12 | 0:17:16 | |
you are a manner that is supposed to
be advocating... It is true. It is | 0:17:16 | 0:17:20 | |
true. We have a big potential in our
possible economical development. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:27 | |
Russia is a huge possibility of
growth. We are saying we cannot do | 0:17:27 | 0:17:34 | |
it by ourselves. We have quite a
strong Russian business community. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:39 | |
We have technologies. A lot of
experts are still working in Russia. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:44 | |
You are the Ombudsman there, would
you agree with me that for example | 0:17:44 | 0:17:56 | |
the use of the law and the courts by
big companies to intimidate smaller | 0:17:56 | 0:18:02 | |
companies, to manipulate... That's
not right. The biggest problem now | 0:18:02 | 0:18:07 | |
in Russia is corruption. And threats
from the State to businessmen. Where | 0:18:07 | 0:18:17 | |
criminal law is used against
companies. We have to protect the | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
rights, we have to take people out
of jails because, according to the | 0:18:22 | 0:18:27 | |
Russian laws, businessmen before the
court could not be jailed. It is a | 0:18:27 | 0:18:31 | |
recent law. But they are still
jailed. I have just been in London | 0:18:31 | 0:18:36 | |
and we had the list of Russian
businessmen who have escaped from | 0:18:36 | 0:18:42 | |
Russia and they are living in
London, Greece, Spain and different | 0:18:42 | 0:18:46 | |
countries... Boris Titov at this is
really important. And you are being | 0:18:46 | 0:18:56 | |
very frank about the degree of
corruption in your country and that | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
matters because you are the
Ombudsman the business and it is | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
important to businessmen to believe
in their ability to safeguard their | 0:19:03 | 0:19:08 | |
interests if corruption is corroding
their system. A simple question, the | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
youth think Vladimir Putin and his
cronies and France, many from Saint | 0:19:11 | 0:19:17 | |
Petersburg, are crooked? I can say I
do not know this. I can say to you, | 0:19:17 | 0:19:24 | |
I talk to Vladimir Putin about our
strategy of growth. This is our | 0:19:24 | 0:19:32 | |
programme. And what he did is he
tried to move this way for more | 0:19:32 | 0:19:38 | |
competition... I am asking you
whether you believe Vladimir Putin | 0:19:38 | 0:19:43 | |
is corrupt? I have never seen any
deals with Putin on corruption. I | 0:19:43 | 0:19:50 | |
have never seen it anywhere. Really?
Really! Let me read to you the | 0:19:50 | 0:19:59 | |
latest Helsinki commission report,
highly respected, on Russian. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:06 | |
Endemic corruption is a defining
characteristic of the Putin regime | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
while the President is the prime
beneficiary, cronies maintain a | 0:20:09 | 0:20:16 | |
system of corruption. These low
support is necessary to ensure the | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
status quo and they often pursue the
governments illicit interests. That | 0:20:19 | 0:20:25 | |
is the Helsinki commission report
putting the blame on Putin himself. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:32 | |
Helsinki... I do not know about
Helsinki but they have never seen | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
anybody from Putin's Administration
asking for a bribe, at least in | 0:20:35 | 0:20:45 | |
business. I have never seen, I
cannot comment on that. You're | 0:20:45 | 0:20:50 | |
trying to beat Putin in this
election, wouldn't it be worth your | 0:20:50 | 0:20:59 | |
way at these allegations? I am
saying we have to work and go | 0:20:59 | 0:21:06 | |
forward. If we will claim that
everything is bad and this, this, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:13 | |
and this bash by the way not very
proved. Alexei Navalny's | 0:21:13 | 0:21:21 | |
accusations... At least I have not
seen the proved by coming back to | 0:21:21 | 0:21:26 | |
the main idea. We need to go
forward. We understand the problems | 0:21:26 | 0:21:32 | |
we have in Russia. Corruption. The
main corruption is a huge garden... | 0:21:32 | 0:21:45 | |
I did not know how to say it in
English... A huge sector of Russian | 0:21:45 | 0:21:53 | |
society which we call it the Russian
middle-class, which are all | 0:21:53 | 0:21:59 | |
bureaucrats, you know, the people
from the government and this | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
practically middle-class pushes
Russian politics forward. They are | 0:22:04 | 0:22:12 | |
interesting all the politics in
Russia. -- influencing. They do not | 0:22:12 | 0:22:20 | |
want peace to go forward because
they relate on that budget salary, | 0:22:20 | 0:22:24 | |
corruption and we see it every day.
When businessmen are put in jail, | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
the next day comes somebody who
says, you want to sit in jail? You | 0:22:29 | 0:22:34 | |
give some payment to this company
and you will be released. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
Practically 60% of businessmen who
went in jail... We are almost out of | 0:22:38 | 0:22:44 | |
time... The main problem of Russia
is this corruption. You have spoken | 0:22:44 | 0:22:49 | |
frankly about corruption in Russia.
In a few days there will be an | 0:22:49 | 0:22:56 | |
election and I hate to say this but
you are not going to win, Vladimir | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
Putin is going to win. How damaging
will 64 years of let me Putin be? | 0:23:00 | 0:23:07 | |
This election is not about electing
a president. Speaking honestly. Yes, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:14 | |
he has a big advantage against all
of us but this election is about how | 0:23:14 | 0:23:19 | |
Russia will be after the elections.
And who will influence on the | 0:23:19 | 0:23:25 | |
economy to go to the site of market
competition and for the | 0:23:25 | 0:23:29 | |
versification of the economy. -- de
versification. The other way is back | 0:23:29 | 0:23:37 | |
the 90s, backed to the Soviet Union,
I'm afraid to say. This is a very | 0:23:37 | 0:23:44 | |
possible alternative so we are
fighting for that. That we do not | 0:23:44 | 0:23:50 |
Stephen Sackur speaks to Boris Titov, leader of Russia's Party of Growth. Seven candidates are challenging Vladimir Putin in this month's Russian presidential election, but none of them has much hope of victory. To all intents and purposes, this is a show election to confirm the popularity and the power of Mr Putin. But is there danger for Russia in this Putinisation of politics. One of the seven 'other' candidates, Boris Titov, is a Putin appointee as government ombudsman for business. Does Russia need reform rather than authoritarianism?