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Now on BBC News, it's
time for HARDtalk. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:09 | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:09 | 0:00:10 | |
I'm Stephen Sackur. | 0:00:10 | 0:00:16 | |
Donald Trump claims he can broker
the deal of the century | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
between Israel and Palestine. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:21 | |
Instead, he seems to have
entrenched the hostility. | 0:00:21 | 0:00:27 | |
My guess is that they are trained
Arab Israeli MP and one-time adviser | 0:00:27 | 0:00:33 | |
to Yasser Arafat, Ahmad Tibi. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:37 | |
Is the Arab-Israeli experience
a sign that the uneasy, | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
messy status quo is the only viable
response to the conflict | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
between Jewish and Arab communities? | 0:00:43 | 0:00:44 | |
HARDTALK THEME MUSIC PLAYS. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:56 | |
Ahmad Tibi, welcome to HARDtalk
Thank you. I think we have to start | 0:01:12 | 0:01:19 | |
with the impact of the Donald Trump
presidency on relations between | 0:01:19 | 0:01:23 | |
Palestinians and Israelis. Would you
agree that it has fundamentally | 0:01:23 | 0:01:29 | |
changed the dynamic in the region?
Yes, for the negative. I think that | 0:01:29 | 0:01:34 | |
Trump and his Administration
promoted anarchy in the region and | 0:01:34 | 0:01:40 | |
anarchy in the world by supporting,
enhancing, encouraging violation of | 0:01:40 | 0:01:48 | |
international law and adopting one
side as opposed to the other. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:55 | |
President Trump via his speech about
Jerusalem he adopted these rarely | 0:01:55 | 0:02:02 | |
narrative and the occupation
narrative. To say that he and his | 0:02:02 | 0:02:07 | |
three Musketeers, advises who are
great supporters, adopted the | 0:02:07 | 0:02:15 | |
talking points of Benjamin
Netanyahu... You can make your point | 0:02:15 | 0:02:20 | |
about international law but surely
what Donald Trump has recognised | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
reality in perhaps a more honest way
the previous American President is | 0:02:25 | 0:02:29 | |
because the truth is it is obvious
to everyone that the Israeli capital | 0:02:29 | 0:02:33 | |
is in Jerusalem, it is where the
cabinet needs, and Donald Trump said | 0:02:33 | 0:02:40 | |
enough with this nonsense. That is
nonsense. Because 1967, Jerusalem | 0:02:40 | 0:02:49 | |
was occupied in 1967, that is the
reality. If there is a thief in the | 0:02:49 | 0:02:55 | |
area and he has taken your house,
that is a reality but you are not | 0:02:55 | 0:03:00 | |
supposed to accept reality as
legitimate FAQ. Colonel Trump | 0:03:00 | 0:03:06 | |
announced he would move the embassy
to Jerusalem, and we understand it | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
may happen quicker than we thought
but he said I not prejudging what | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
the two parties finally agree on
Jerusalem, they can do what they | 0:03:13 | 0:03:19 | |
want, they can divide it in the
future as they wish, we are simply | 0:03:19 | 0:03:24 | |
recognise it what is seen to be
Israel's capital. He said more than | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
that. In 1980, there was a motion
saying exactly what he said in his | 0:03:28 | 0:03:37 | |
speech. He adopted that low of
unified capital of Israel, | 0:03:37 | 0:03:44 | |
containing the Supreme Court, the
government, Parliament. He adopted | 0:03:44 | 0:03:49 | |
that phrasing, even. He did not say
that Jerusalem is an occupied area, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:55 | |
that Jerusalem should be the capital
of the Palestinians and this is the | 0:03:55 | 0:04:02 | |
most dangerous thing, he is dealing
with Jerusalem as it is an internal | 0:04:02 | 0:04:09 | |
issue of the Israelis and it is not.
The fact is, he remains the most | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
powerful man in the world- you could
perhaps argue about that, China is | 0:04:14 | 0:04:21 | |
rising power- but he has a really a
decision that reflects the fact that | 0:04:21 | 0:04:28 | |
frankly many Palestinians without
knowledge, you have lost. You have | 0:04:28 | 0:04:33 | |
lost in the sense that your
interests are never going to be | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
achievable. I do not agree with you
totally. You do in part? It is one | 0:04:36 | 0:04:47 | |
of the most toughest and it
difficult areas for the Palestinian | 0:04:47 | 0:04:53 | |
people, I agree with that, but we
have had much more difficult phases | 0:04:53 | 0:04:58 | |
in our history, in Palestinian
history. This nation, the | 0:04:58 | 0:05:03 | |
Palestinian people, is very much in
Sijsling in implementing and | 0:05:03 | 0:05:09 | |
achieving its national rights and it
is the rights of the people under | 0:05:09 | 0:05:16 | |
occupation seeking to be freed, to
be Independent, to be sovereign, | 0:05:16 | 0:05:22 | |
alongside the state of Israel and Mr
Trump is saying the Palestinians and | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
Israelis, you will take it all and
he will take nothing. He has | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
qualified himself as a broker. I am
wondering as and Israelis citizen, | 0:05:30 | 0:05:42 | |
you serve in the Knesset Knesset,
you represent the interests of the | 0:05:42 | 0:05:47 | |
Arab Israeli people. Reaction from
Hamas leaders saying we would not | 0:05:47 | 0:05:58 | |
allow Trump's declaration to pass
even if we lose our heads in the | 0:05:58 | 0:06:02 | |
process, all the talk of a new
intifada, the talk of Palestinians | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
putting their life on the line, we
have been here so many times before, | 0:06:08 | 0:06:14 | |
is there not now be we resignation
that says to you, in the privacy of | 0:06:14 | 0:06:19 | |
your mind, there is no point any
more to this sort of talk of laying | 0:06:19 | 0:06:24 | |
down our lives, new in the -- into
fibres, we are part of the | 0:06:24 | 0:06:36 | |
Palestinian people. There are three
parts, Palestinians inside is right, | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
in 67 areas, and in the diaspora. We
are supporting Palestinians | 0:06:40 | 0:06:51 | |
self-determination and this right is
not negotiable and we are, as | 0:06:51 | 0:06:56 | |
citizens, from the podium, from the
Knesset Knesset, we are promoting | 0:06:56 | 0:07:03 | |
Israeli-Palestinian peace, we are
not supporting violence, we have | 0:07:03 | 0:07:08 | |
said it in the past always, I am
supporting nonviolent popular | 0:07:08 | 0:07:14 | |
resistance. It has succeeded in the
last year when the church closed... | 0:07:14 | 0:07:27 | |
When the government official tried
to impose taxes on the Christian | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
Church in Jerusalem. One could say
it is easy to you to talk about | 0:07:31 | 0:07:36 | |
protests, the usual words in the
Knesset. But if you lived in the | 0:07:36 | 0:07:44 | |
occupied West Bank, the reality is
much more desperate. A young girl in | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
the West Bank village who struck out
at an Israeli officer because she | 0:07:48 | 0:07:54 | |
was so angry about what the troops
were doing in and around the | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
village, she is now in a court
facing serious charges and may well | 0:07:57 | 0:08:03 | |
end up in prison. It is easy for you
as an Arab - Israelis to say that | 0:08:03 | 0:08:12 | |
but it is much for difficult for
others to jeopardise their freedom. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:21 | |
I accompanying her in the military
court... You can walk away at the | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
end of the day. 13 of us were shot
way snipers and killed in 2000. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:34 | |
Citizens of the state of Israel
because we just demonstrated against | 0:08:34 | 0:08:41 | |
Sharon getting in. From that point,
until today, 55 Arab citizens were | 0:08:41 | 0:08:48 | |
killed by the Israelis security
authorities without being | 0:08:48 | 0:08:54 | |
prosecuted. We are in danger because
of the way Israeli police is dealing | 0:08:54 | 0:08:59 | |
with us as enemy is not as citizens
but I not in a position to reach | 0:08:59 | 0:09:07 | |
Palestinians in Gaza and the West
Bank how to resist. -- to preach to. | 0:09:07 | 0:09:14 | |
People are resisting... Really, it
is not your fight... My nation | 0:09:14 | 0:09:19 | |
fight. I am a Palestinian... And
also an Israeli. You have the vote, | 0:09:19 | 0:09:26 | |
you have a seat in the Knesset
Knesset. There is a difference | 0:09:26 | 0:09:32 | |
between you and the people living
under occupation and we can talk | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
about the subset of the Palestinians
living in Excel... They are | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
suffering much more. I am
interesting in the position of the | 0:09:40 | 0:09:46 | |
Arab Israeli and amongst Arab
Israelis, the overwhelming feeling | 0:09:46 | 0:09:51 | |
is one of query acceptance. Opinion
polls show that a clear majority of | 0:09:51 | 0:09:56 | |
Arab Israelis have a positive
feeling a bout of their lives in | 0:09:56 | 0:10:02 | |
Israel. A positive feeling. I am
Smiley because I am living there. -- | 0:10:02 | 0:10:10 | |
smiling. Arab citizens are
discriminated in all fields of life | 0:10:10 | 0:10:23 | |
and in Pauls, scientific polls, not
Israeli journalist polls, they are | 0:10:23 | 0:10:30 | |
feeling second or third degree
citizens. Budget, employment, | 0:10:30 | 0:10:38 | |
agriculture, nonindustrial zones, we
are discriminated in all fields of | 0:10:38 | 0:10:43 | |
life. A major poll says 60.5% of
Arabs describe their situation as | 0:10:43 | 0:10:53 | |
good or make very good. It does not
seem to match what you are saying. I | 0:10:53 | 0:10:58 | |
did not agree with these results. At
least people are saying believed the | 0:10:58 | 0:11:12 | |
State is dealing with them as
enemies not as equal citizens. Why | 0:11:12 | 0:11:19 | |
do you think thousands of Arabs
living in Jerusalem - they have a | 0:11:19 | 0:11:23 | |
grey area status because an
international law East Jerusalem is | 0:11:23 | 0:11:30 | |
occupied territory but since the
annexation by Israel they are | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
regarded as people with rights to
residency and, indeed, the right to | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
apply for citizenship in Israel and
thousands have indeed applied for | 0:11:39 | 0:11:46 | |
citizenship. What does that tell
you? We are talking about 300,000 | 0:11:46 | 0:11:51 | |
Palestinians in Palestinians and
you're talking about thousands. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
Those Palestinians in east Jerusalem
are facing strangulation policy, | 0:11:55 | 0:12:04 | |
deportation, revoking their identity
card, sending them out Jerusalem - | 0:12:04 | 0:12:11 | |
thousands of them. It is to say that
the education system in east | 0:12:11 | 0:12:17 | |
Jerusalem is one of the worst
education systems conditions led by | 0:12:17 | 0:12:23 | |
the Israeli authorities. It is to
say that those in Jerusalem, | 0:12:23 | 0:12:28 | |
Palestinians, not all of them are
free to get into a mosque. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:34 | |
Demolition orders in east Jerusalem
but more also in other villages in | 0:12:34 | 0:12:41 | |
Arab villages, inside Israeli,
because of lack of planning and | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
housing. Do you know, Stephen, there
is a law for community villages law, | 0:12:45 | 0:12:51 | |
for preventing me, as an Israeli
citizen, Arab citizen, the living in | 0:12:51 | 0:13:00 | |
many villages. I can live in
Manhattan and London but not in | 0:13:00 | 0:13:05 | |
this. A year saying, using the words
of that resolution from the UN in | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
1975, are you saying that you still
regarded as racism? The practice of | 0:13:11 | 0:13:18 | |
Zionism daily is to say that Jews
are superior to non- Jews. There was | 0:13:18 | 0:13:28 | |
a repeal, one of the only UN
resolutions to be repealed because | 0:13:28 | 0:13:33 | |
of a consensus across the world that
that language was an except verbal | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
and wrong. I am asking you whether
you still use that phrase. Many | 0:13:37 | 0:13:43 | |
Palestinians inside Israel or
outside the green line, of the times | 0:13:43 | 0:13:48 | |
of Zionism because of racism because
of many aspects against non- Jews, | 0:13:48 | 0:13:58 | |
or Indigenous Palestinians. This is
important because right now there is | 0:13:58 | 0:14:04 | |
a discussion both inside Israel and
outside the territories but also | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
among Palestinians and Arab Israelis
about what is going to happen if the | 0:14:07 | 0:14:12 | |
two state solution is dead and we
have discussed Donald Trump and the | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
current political situation and
nobody would pretend that the two | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
state solution looks alive right now
so there is a unitary state solution | 0:14:20 | 0:14:27 | |
and how and if there is one, do you
believe it would be acceptable for | 0:14:27 | 0:14:33 | |
the Jewish Israeli population to be
in a minority? | 0:14:33 | 0:14:41 | |
There are more talk about the
solution. You even posited the | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
notion that you might run for Prime
Minister of the Unitarian strayed | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
from the Jordan River and he said it
was able run-off between me and Mr | 0:15:09 | 0:15:13 | |
Netanyahu, I would wind, no doubt
about it. If this was the case, an | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
equal right would be there between
Jews and Arabs from the sea to the | 0:15:18 | 0:15:24 | |
river. A Palestinian would wind the
post of the Prime Minister. I asked | 0:15:24 | 0:15:30 | |
you, can you countenance and you
think it is in any way realistic to | 0:15:30 | 0:15:36 | |
think that the Jewish population of
Israel will ever accept a situation | 0:15:36 | 0:15:40 | |
in which they are in a minority?
Under the resolution, as the | 0:15:40 | 0:15:46 | |
homeland for the Jews after the
Second World War, you understand | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
that. I believe better than most
Arabs because it made a very famous | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
speech understanding the impact of
the Holocaust on the Jewish people | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
and on that creation of the state of
Israel. Can you imagine a unitary | 0:15:57 | 0:16:03 | |
state where the Jewish population
isn't a minority? I, as a victim, in | 0:16:03 | 0:16:08 | |
that speech, can tell you that I
realise that for the Israelis, it is | 0:16:08 | 0:16:14 | |
a nightmare to talk about equal
democratic state. That is why, when | 0:16:14 | 0:16:20 | |
you are giving two choices for them,
two state solution or one state | 0:16:20 | 0:16:25 | |
solution, there are immediately
choosing the third choice, which is | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
not there, the status quo. That is
why I am staying two state solution | 0:16:29 | 0:16:33 | |
is the ultimate solution that is
supporting. But the condition is | 0:16:33 | 0:16:40 | |
immediate ending of the occupation
and Israel is rearranging the | 0:16:40 | 0:16:46 | |
occupation. But you don't just say
that. It's a very inflammatory | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
things. In an interview not so long
ago, you allowed your imagination to | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
run. You said, we will, if there is
to be a unitary state, we will annul | 0:16:54 | 0:17:00 | |
the declaration of independence from
1948. In its place, we will write a | 0:17:00 | 0:17:05 | |
simple declaration that represents
all citizens. He said it is | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
untenable for a democratic state to
have a declaration of independence | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
that is fundamentally Jewish. You
asked, what would the country's name | 0:17:12 | 0:17:17 | |
they? You said, I don't know. Its
Parliament will decide. What about | 0:17:17 | 0:17:22 | |
the flag? You said, yes, that will
have to change. When you say these | 0:17:22 | 0:17:26 | |
things, how do you think they
respond? When is daily -- is | 0:17:26 | 0:17:32 | |
Israelis are killing Palestinians,
how will we react? It is a | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
democratic vision. I think any
democratic in the international | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
community, should respect my vision
of democracy. If there will not be | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
as two state solution, yes, I want
to be equal with Israeli Jews. I | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
want to be equal with anybody in Tel
Aviv. Nazareth. But I will never | 0:17:50 | 0:17:57 | |
accept to be inferior to any Israeli
Jews just because the state is | 0:17:57 | 0:18:03 | |
defining itself as a Jewish state.
Because defining yourself as Jewish | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
and democratic is an oxymoron. This
is an oxymoron that we are fighting | 0:18:07 | 0:18:14 | |
against day by day. It seems to me
your speech was based on empathy and | 0:18:14 | 0:18:19 | |
a genuine effort to understand the
Israeli mindset. What aspect of the | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
Israeli mindset is that they see
more than a decade ago when the | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
Palestinians had a free election
that a majority at least in Gaza | 0:18:27 | 0:18:31 | |
voted quite clearly for harm us, a
movement that is dedicated in its | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
original constitution, the
destruction of the state of Israel | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
-- Hamas. It is democracy.
Palestinian people, like in England | 0:18:40 | 0:18:46 | |
and Germany, and in France, like
even in the United States, who just | 0:18:46 | 0:18:52 | |
elected a very bizarre president,
weak, Palestinians, are free to | 0:18:52 | 0:18:57 | |
elect exactly what they want
Palestinians want. Israelis are | 0:18:57 | 0:19:03 | |
going to listen to this and your
belief that the Palestinians can | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
choose Hamas if they and still
believe that there is any possible | 0:19:07 | 0:19:12 | |
reason why they should listen to you
talking about unitary state? They | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
can listen to me talking about two
state solution. They are not | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
listening. No for that. And what is
Netanyahu proposing for Israel is an | 0:19:20 | 0:19:29 | |
Palestinians? More and more
confrontation, more friction, more | 0:19:29 | 0:19:35 | |
bloodshed. I am proposing peace, I
am proposing peace, freedom for | 0:19:35 | 0:19:41 | |
Palestinians and peaceful Israelis
and Palestinians. It is challenging. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
It is. If you wanted to build some
temperatures and build some | 0:19:45 | 0:19:49 | |
confidence, there are certain things
you could do. For a start, you could | 0:19:49 | 0:19:54 | |
denounce your fellow Arab-Israeli
ember of who is now in prison | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
because he was smuggling telephones
to Palestinian prisoners. What did | 0:19:59 | 0:20:05 | |
you make what he did, and how
disappointed were you in him? The | 0:20:05 | 0:20:18 | |
13th MKs of the joint list, all of
us, were not using this way of | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
struggle in order to act as
parliamentarians. It is not the way. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:26 | |
He said though. We, myself and
others said so, and he is paying the | 0:20:26 | 0:20:32 | |
price in jail. Why did you boycott
the funeral? Because I carried my | 0:20:32 | 0:20:42 | |
condolences to this daughter... No,
you didn't go to that general. What | 0:20:42 | 0:20:47 | |
kind of signal are you selling --
sending to the Israelis? I obliged | 0:20:47 | 0:20:53 | |
to act exactly as the consensus, the
Israeli consensus is demanding from | 0:20:53 | 0:21:00 | |
me? That is a historical problem. I
can understand Israelis when they | 0:21:00 | 0:21:06 | |
cannot do something that hurt their
feelings. Please understand our | 0:21:06 | 0:21:13 | |
feelings as national leaders. I
wonder whether you paid heed to the | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
words of the first Arab-Israeli to
be a Supreme Court justice, and that | 0:21:16 | 0:21:21 | |
tell you something about the Israeli
system. He served in the Supreme | 0:21:21 | 0:21:26 | |
Court, he was proud to do so, and to
what time he was leaving, he said, | 0:21:26 | 0:21:31 | |
yes, I complain a lot about the
treatment of Israelis, but I am also | 0:21:31 | 0:21:36 | |
complaining a lot about us, the
leaders of the community and we must | 0:21:36 | 0:21:41 | |
take responsibility for the
problems. Hasn't got a point there? | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
You spend so much time grandstanding
about the long-term prospect that a | 0:21:44 | 0:21:48 | |
peaceful solution between Arab,
between Palestinian and Israeli, you | 0:21:48 | 0:21:53 | |
don't spend much time trying to make
a better life for your constituent. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:59 | |
You were mistaken. 85% of the
activity is focused on social and | 0:21:59 | 0:22:06 | |
economic issues of our community,
and there is misleading coverage of | 0:22:06 | 0:22:13 | |
power at the tea. Yes, we are
responsible for the well-being of | 0:22:13 | 0:22:20 | |
our community. We should be much
more interested, focusing, of | 0:22:20 | 0:22:29 | |
violence in our community, which is
almost devastating. It is a scourge, | 0:22:29 | 0:22:35 | |
particular violence against women
inside Arab community. We are taking | 0:22:35 | 0:22:41 | |
part in every demonstration. Who
should emotion against that, who | 0:22:41 | 0:22:47 | |
should emotion about using weapons
and community events? Myself. I | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
guess, that is what the Israelis, I
can hear the voices in my head. And | 0:22:50 | 0:22:56 | |
you are much freer to make those
protests and to demand better from | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
the community inside Israel that he
would be if you are living in a | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
village in the west Bank or indeed a
different Arab country. In Syria or | 0:23:04 | 0:23:09 | |
Libya. Say it. You can say it. It is
a racist. You know why? To tell me | 0:23:09 | 0:23:16 | |
that because I am Arab that I should
move to Syria as they are demanding | 0:23:16 | 0:23:21 | |
day by day or I should compare
myself to third World countries, | 0:23:21 | 0:23:26 | |
none democratic, totalitarian
regimes, Israel is claiming it is | 0:23:26 | 0:23:34 | |
democracy, the control group and the
control state should be Sweden, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:39 | |
France, England, not Libya, not
Syria, not third states, third World | 0:23:39 | 0:23:45 | |
states in Africa or south America. I
want to be equal, exactly like | 0:23:45 | 0:23:51 | |
citizens in Tel Aviv and I do not
want to be compared with | 0:23:51 | 0:23:57 | |
totalitarian regimes, but with
democratic states will stop it is | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
the test. Can you accept the idea
that an Israeli citizen who is Arab | 0:24:00 | 0:24:07 | |
is willing to be equal? It is a good
way to end this interview. Ahmad | 0:24:07 | 0:24:18 | |
Tibi, thank you very much for being
on HARDtalk. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:24 |