Ahmad Tibi MK - Leader of the Arab Movement for Change, Joint List, Israel HARDtalk


Ahmad Tibi MK - Leader of the Arab Movement for Change, Joint List, Israel

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Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk.

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I'm Stephen Sackur.

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Donald Trump claims he can broker

the deal of the century

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between Israel and Palestine.

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Instead, he seems to have

entrenched the hostility.

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My guess is that they are trained

Arab Israeli MP and one-time adviser

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to Yasser Arafat, Ahmad Tibi.

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Is the Arab-Israeli experience

a sign that the uneasy,

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messy status quo is the only viable

response to the conflict

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between Jewish and Arab communities?

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HARDTALK THEME MUSIC PLAYS.

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Ahmad Tibi, welcome to HARDtalk

Thank you. I think we have to start

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with the impact of the Donald Trump

presidency on relations between

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Palestinians and Israelis. Would you

agree that it has fundamentally

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changed the dynamic in the region?

Yes, for the negative. I think that

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Trump and his Administration

promoted anarchy in the region and

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anarchy in the world by supporting,

enhancing, encouraging violation of

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international law and adopting one

side as opposed to the other.

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President Trump via his speech about

Jerusalem he adopted these rarely

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narrative and the occupation

narrative. To say that he and his

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three Musketeers, advises who are

great supporters, adopted the

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talking points of Benjamin

Netanyahu...

You can make your point

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about international law but surely

what Donald Trump has recognised

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reality in perhaps a more honest way

the previous American President is

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because the truth is it is obvious

to everyone that the Israeli capital

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is in Jerusalem, it is where the

cabinet needs, and Donald Trump said

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enough with this nonsense.

That is

nonsense. Because 1967, Jerusalem

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was occupied in 1967, that is the

reality. If there is a thief in the

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area and he has taken your house,

that is a reality but you are not

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supposed to accept reality as

legitimate FAQ.

Colonel Trump

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announced he would move the embassy

to Jerusalem, and we understand it

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may happen quicker than we thought

but he said I not prejudging what

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the two parties finally agree on

Jerusalem, they can do what they

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want, they can divide it in the

future as they wish, we are simply

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recognise it what is seen to be

Israel's capital.

He said more than

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that. In 1980, there was a motion

saying exactly what he said in his

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speech. He adopted that low of

unified capital of Israel,

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containing the Supreme Court, the

government, Parliament. He adopted

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that phrasing, even. He did not say

that Jerusalem is an occupied area,

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that Jerusalem should be the capital

of the Palestinians and this is the

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most dangerous thing, he is dealing

with Jerusalem as it is an internal

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issue of the Israelis and it is not.

The fact is, he remains the most

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powerful man in the world- you could

perhaps argue about that, China is

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rising power- but he has a really a

decision that reflects the fact that

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frankly many Palestinians without

knowledge, you have lost. You have

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lost in the sense that your

interests are never going to be

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achievable.

I do not agree with you

totally. You do in part? It is one

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of the most toughest and it

difficult areas for the Palestinian

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people, I agree with that, but we

have had much more difficult phases

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in our history, in Palestinian

history. This nation, the

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Palestinian people, is very much in

Sijsling in implementing and

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achieving its national rights and it

is the rights of the people under

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occupation seeking to be freed, to

be Independent, to be sovereign,

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alongside the state of Israel and Mr

Trump is saying the Palestinians and

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Israelis, you will take it all and

he will take nothing. He has

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qualified himself as a broker.

I am

wondering as and Israelis citizen,

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you serve in the Knesset Knesset,

you represent the interests of the

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Arab Israeli people. Reaction from

Hamas leaders saying we would not

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allow Trump's declaration to pass

even if we lose our heads in the

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process, all the talk of a new

intifada, the talk of Palestinians

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putting their life on the line, we

have been here so many times before,

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is there not now be we resignation

that says to you, in the privacy of

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your mind, there is no point any

more to this sort of talk of laying

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down our lives, new in the -- into

fibres, we are part of the

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Palestinian people.

There are three

parts, Palestinians inside is right,

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in 67 areas, and in the diaspora. We

are supporting Palestinians

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self-determination and this right is

not negotiable and we are, as

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citizens, from the podium, from the

Knesset Knesset, we are promoting

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Israeli-Palestinian peace, we are

not supporting violence, we have

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said it in the past always, I am

supporting nonviolent popular

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resistance. It has succeeded in the

last year when the church closed...

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When the government official tried

to impose taxes on the Christian

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Church in Jerusalem.

One could say

it is easy to you to talk about

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protests, the usual words in the

Knesset. But if you lived in the

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occupied West Bank, the reality is

much more desperate. A young girl in

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the West Bank village who struck out

at an Israeli officer because she

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was so angry about what the troops

were doing in and around the

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village, she is now in a court

facing serious charges and may well

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end up in prison. It is easy for you

as an Arab - Israelis to say that

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but it is much for difficult for

others to jeopardise their freedom.

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I accompanying her in the military

court...

You can walk away at the

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end of the day.

13 of us were shot

way snipers and killed in 2000.

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Citizens of the state of Israel

because we just demonstrated against

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Sharon getting in. From that point,

until today, 55 Arab citizens were

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killed by the Israelis security

authorities without being

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prosecuted. We are in danger because

of the way Israeli police is dealing

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with us as enemy is not as citizens

but I not in a position to reach

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Palestinians in Gaza and the West

Bank how to resist. -- to preach to.

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People are resisting... Really, it

is not your fight...

My nation

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fight.

I am a Palestinian... And

also an Israeli. You have the vote,

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you have a seat in the Knesset

Knesset. There is a difference

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between you and the people living

under occupation and we can talk

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about the subset of the Palestinians

living in Excel...

They are

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suffering much more.

I am

interesting in the position of the

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Arab Israeli and amongst Arab

Israelis, the overwhelming feeling

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is one of query acceptance. Opinion

polls show that a clear majority of

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Arab Israelis have a positive

feeling a bout of their lives in

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Israel. A positive feeling.

I am

Smiley because I am living there. --

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smiling. Arab citizens are

discriminated in all fields of life

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and in Pauls, scientific polls, not

Israeli journalist polls, they are

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feeling second or third degree

citizens. Budget, employment,

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agriculture, nonindustrial zones, we

are discriminated in all fields of

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life.

A major poll says 60.5% of

Arabs describe their situation as

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good or make very good. It does not

seem to match what you are saying.

I

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did not agree with these results. At

least people are saying believed the

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State is dealing with them as

enemies not as equal citizens.

Why

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do you think thousands of Arabs

living in Jerusalem - they have a

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grey area status because an

international law East Jerusalem is

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occupied territory but since the

annexation by Israel they are

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regarded as people with rights to

residency and, indeed, the right to

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apply for citizenship in Israel and

thousands have indeed applied for

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citizenship.

What does that tell

you? We are talking about 300,000

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Palestinians in Palestinians and

you're talking about thousands.

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Those Palestinians in east Jerusalem

are facing strangulation policy,

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deportation, revoking their identity

card, sending them out Jerusalem -

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thousands of them. It is to say that

the education system in east

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Jerusalem is one of the worst

education systems conditions led by

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the Israeli authorities. It is to

say that those in Jerusalem,

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Palestinians, not all of them are

free to get into a mosque.

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Demolition orders in east Jerusalem

but more also in other villages in

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Arab villages, inside Israeli,

because of lack of planning and

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housing. Do you know, Stephen, there

is a law for community villages law,

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for preventing me, as an Israeli

citizen, Arab citizen, the living in

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many villages. I can live in

Manhattan and London but not in

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this.

A year saying, using the words

of that resolution from the UN in

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1975, are you saying that you still

regarded as racism?

The practice of

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Zionism daily is to say that Jews

are superior to non- Jews.

There was

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a repeal, one of the only UN

resolutions to be repealed because

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of a consensus across the world that

that language was an except verbal

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and wrong. I am asking you whether

you still use that phrase.

Many

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Palestinians inside Israel or

outside the green line, of the times

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of Zionism because of racism because

of many aspects against non- Jews,

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or Indigenous Palestinians.

This is

important because right now there is

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a discussion both inside Israel and

outside the territories but also

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among Palestinians and Arab Israelis

about what is going to happen if the

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two state solution is dead and we

have discussed Donald Trump and the

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current political situation and

nobody would pretend that the two

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state solution looks alive right now

so there is a unitary state solution

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and how and if there is one, do you

believe it would be acceptable for

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the Jewish Israeli population to be

in a minority?

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There are more talk about the

solution.

You even posited the

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notion that you might run for Prime

Minister of the Unitarian strayed

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from the Jordan River and he said it

was able run-off between me and Mr

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Netanyahu, I would wind, no doubt

about it.

If this was the case, an

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equal right would be there between

Jews and Arabs from the sea to the

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river. A Palestinian would wind the

post of the Prime Minister.

I asked

0:15:240:15:30

you, can you countenance and you

think it is in any way realistic to

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think that the Jewish population of

Israel will ever accept a situation

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in which they are in a minority?

Under the resolution, as the

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homeland for the Jews after the

Second World War, you understand

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that. I believe better than most

Arabs because it made a very famous

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speech understanding the impact of

the Holocaust on the Jewish people

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and on that creation of the state of

Israel. Can you imagine a unitary

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state where the Jewish population

isn't a minority?

I, as a victim, in

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that speech, can tell you that I

realise that for the Israelis, it is

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a nightmare to talk about equal

democratic state. That is why, when

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you are giving two choices for them,

two state solution or one state

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solution, there are immediately

choosing the third choice, which is

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not there, the status quo. That is

why I am staying two state solution

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is the ultimate solution that is

supporting. But the condition is

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immediate ending of the occupation

and Israel is rearranging the

0:16:400:16:46

occupation.

But you don't just say

that. It's a very inflammatory

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things. In an interview not so long

ago, you allowed your imagination to

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run. You said, we will, if there is

to be a unitary state, we will annul

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the declaration of independence from

1948. In its place, we will write a

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simple declaration that represents

all citizens. He said it is

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untenable for a democratic state to

have a declaration of independence

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that is fundamentally Jewish. You

asked, what would the country's name

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they? You said, I don't know. Its

Parliament will decide. What about

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the flag? You said, yes, that will

have to change. When you say these

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things, how do you think they

respond?

When is daily -- is

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Israelis are killing Palestinians,

how will we react? It is a

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democratic vision. I think any

democratic in the international

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community, should respect my vision

of democracy. If there will not be

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as two state solution, yes, I want

to be equal with Israeli Jews. I

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want to be equal with anybody in Tel

Aviv. Nazareth. But I will never

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accept to be inferior to any Israeli

Jews just because the state is

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defining itself as a Jewish state.

Because defining yourself as Jewish

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and democratic is an oxymoron. This

is an oxymoron that we are fighting

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against day by day. It seems to me

your speech was based on empathy and

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a genuine effort to understand the

Israeli mindset.

What aspect of the

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Israeli mindset is that they see

more than a decade ago when the

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Palestinians had a free election

that a majority at least in Gaza

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voted quite clearly for harm us, a

movement that is dedicated in its

0:18:310:18:35

original constitution, the

destruction of the state of Israel

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-- Hamas.

It is democracy.

Palestinian people, like in England

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and Germany, and in France, like

even in the United States, who just

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elected a very bizarre president,

weak, Palestinians, are free to

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elect exactly what they want

Palestinians want.

Israelis are

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going to listen to this and your

belief that the Palestinians can

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choose Hamas if they and still

believe that there is any possible

0:19:070:19:12

reason why they should listen to you

talking about unitary state?

They

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can listen to me talking about two

state solution. They are not

0:19:170:19:20

listening. No for that. And what is

Netanyahu proposing for Israel is an

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Palestinians? More and more

confrontation, more friction, more

0:19:290:19:35

bloodshed. I am proposing peace, I

am proposing peace, freedom for

0:19:350:19:41

Palestinians and peaceful Israelis

and Palestinians.

It is challenging.

0:19:410:19:45

It is. If you wanted to build some

temperatures and build some

0:19:450:19:49

confidence, there are certain things

you could do. For a start, you could

0:19:490:19:54

denounce your fellow Arab-Israeli

ember of who is now in prison

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because he was smuggling telephones

to Palestinian prisoners. What did

0:19:590:20:05

you make what he did, and how

disappointed were you in him?

The

0:20:050:20:18

13th MKs of the joint list, all of

us, were not using this way of

0:20:180:20:22

struggle in order to act as

parliamentarians. It is not the way.

0:20:220:20:26

He said though. We, myself and

others said so, and he is paying the

0:20:260:20:32

price in jail.

Why did you boycott

the funeral?

Because I carried my

0:20:320:20:42

condolences to this daughter...

No,

you didn't go to that general. What

0:20:420:20:47

kind of signal are you selling --

sending to the Israelis?

I obliged

0:20:470:20:53

to act exactly as the consensus, the

Israeli consensus is demanding from

0:20:530:21:00

me? That is a historical problem. I

can understand Israelis when they

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cannot do something that hurt their

feelings. Please understand our

0:21:060:21:13

feelings as national leaders.

I

wonder whether you paid heed to the

0:21:130:21:16

words of the first Arab-Israeli to

be a Supreme Court justice, and that

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tell you something about the Israeli

system. He served in the Supreme

0:21:210:21:26

Court, he was proud to do so, and to

what time he was leaving, he said,

0:21:260:21:31

yes, I complain a lot about the

treatment of Israelis, but I am also

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complaining a lot about us, the

leaders of the community and we must

0:21:360:21:41

take responsibility for the

problems. Hasn't got a point there?

0:21:410:21:44

You spend so much time grandstanding

about the long-term prospect that a

0:21:440:21:48

peaceful solution between Arab,

between Palestinian and Israeli, you

0:21:480:21:53

don't spend much time trying to make

a better life for your constituent.

0:21:530:21:59

You were mistaken. 85% of the

activity is focused on social and

0:21:590:22:06

economic issues of our community,

and there is misleading coverage of

0:22:060:22:13

power at the tea. Yes, we are

responsible for the well-being of

0:22:130:22:20

our community. We should be much

more interested, focusing, of

0:22:200:22:29

violence in our community, which is

almost devastating.

It is a scourge,

0:22:290:22:35

particular violence against women

inside Arab community.

We are taking

0:22:350:22:41

part in every demonstration. Who

should emotion against that, who

0:22:410:22:47

should emotion about using weapons

and community events?

Myself. I

0:22:470:22:50

guess, that is what the Israelis, I

can hear the voices in my head. And

0:22:500:22:56

you are much freer to make those

protests and to demand better from

0:22:560:23:00

the community inside Israel that he

would be if you are living in a

0:23:000:23:04

village in the west Bank or indeed a

different Arab country.

In Syria or

0:23:040:23:09

Libya.

Say it. You can say it.

It is

a racist. You know why? To tell me

0:23:090:23:16

that because I am Arab that I should

move to Syria as they are demanding

0:23:160:23:21

day by day or I should compare

myself to third World countries,

0:23:210:23:26

none democratic, totalitarian

regimes, Israel is claiming it is

0:23:260:23:34

democracy, the control group and the

control state should be Sweden,

0:23:340:23:39

France, England, not Libya, not

Syria, not third states, third World

0:23:390:23:45

states in Africa or south America. I

want to be equal, exactly like

0:23:450:23:51

citizens in Tel Aviv and I do not

want to be compared with

0:23:510:23:57

totalitarian regimes, but with

democratic states will stop it is

0:23:570:24:00

the test. Can you accept the idea

that an Israeli citizen who is Arab

0:24:000:24:07

is willing to be equal?

It is a good

way to end this interview. Ahmad

0:24:070:24:18

Tibi, thank you very much for being

on HARDtalk.

0:24:180:24:24

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