Elizabeth Eckford - One of the Little Rock Nine HARDtalk


Elizabeth Eckford - One of the Little Rock Nine

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Now on BBC News it's

time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk.

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I'm Stephen Sackur.

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Nowadays, Arkansas, little rock, is

associated with Bill Clinton. But

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little rock has another import blaze

in American recent history. It was

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here at Little Rock Central High

School that one of the key battles

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of the civil rights era was fought.

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In September 1957, nine

African American students,

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including Elizabeth Eckford,

entered the all-white

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Little Rock Central High School

in Arkansas, thereby breaking

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the racial segregation barrier in US

schools for the first time.

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They became known as

the Little Rock Nine.

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Two years earlier the US

Supreme Court had ruled segregation

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in schools to be unconstitutional.

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Little Rock Nine one of their right

to enter Little Rock Central High

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School. Like Rosa Parks before them,

they came to embody the bravery

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behind the civil rights struggle. My

guess today is one of them.

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Elizabeth Eckford. She was just 15

in 1957 but one extraordinary

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photograph ensures that her role

will be forever remembered. Little

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Rock Central High School Little Rock

Central High

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Elizabeth Eckford, welcome to

HARDtalk and thank you very much for

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inviting me into your home. You are

very welcome. Let me begin by asking

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is something that struck me entering

your house. You have had six decades

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of people eating a path to your

door, wanting to talk to you

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because, as it happened, you played

an extraordinary role as an

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individual in the civil rights

movement in the United States. Do

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you ever sometimes wish things had

gone differently? That you did not

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have all this attention?

When I was

a child, I was very shy, I was a

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submissive child from a household

where my parents, frankly, were

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benevolent Ali oligarchs. We knew

they loved us. Two jobs to take

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care, six kids to take care of. In

this house? It does not look the

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same but it was the same.

It was not

a household that was full of

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radicalism, the beginnings of the

demand for civil rights equality and

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justice. How can it be that you, as

a shy, timid 15 it-year-old, ended

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up on that first list of black

students who were going to roll at

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the White high school?

Actually, it

almost didn't happen. I asked my

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mother during spring that we had

learned it would be desegregated. I

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called her the Queen of now, now

that she is not around at this time

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she did not say no and that was an

characteristic of my mother.

This is

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what a writer who wrote a very

interesting and long piece about you

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on the 50th anniversary of the

events at Little Rock Central High

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School. She was painfully shy

15-year-old daughter of a hyper

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protective mother who was reluctant

to challenge the racial Morais and,

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in fact, Elizabeth was the

unlikeliest child blaze of all.

Yes,

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not only because of my personality

because of my mother. In our

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household... Both parents were

always on the same page for the

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Ossetians. It took a long time to

get to yes for them and so when

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names of the 17 students who were

selected were in the newspaper, I

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told my parents that it was almost

too late, that I had to go. The

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reason I wanted to go is that I

wanted to get the best education

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possible. I had been brought up in a

working-class family but I had been

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brought up with the assumption that

I would go to college and I knew

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that, to do that, I needed to get

scholarships.

Do you think that you

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or your mum or your dad had any idea

of the scale of the opposition and

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the hate and violence that could be

started up by whites in this town?

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This was a total shock. Violence in

schools was not part of the 1950s

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and it being allowed to continue day

after day... First it was thought

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things would get better as timed to

sign and when it didn't change and

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even a few students who had made

friendly overtures to us now turned

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their backs so the only voices of

being heard were the voices of

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people who were organised to attack

us, both physically and verbally...

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Who were systematically racist.

Yes

stop the fall spending time thinking

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about the impact that had a new ones

you started Little Rock Central High

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School, lets think about the moment

that you were actually the first

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black student to appear at the high

school, September four, and because

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of a bit of a mixup over timing, the

other eight were not with you?

But I

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was not the only one who came there

independently. Terence Roberts who

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lived with him walking distance of

the school, less than ten blocks

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away, walked to the school, and

after he was turned away, he came

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and tried to encourage me to leave

with him.

The fact is, the several

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minutes, you are pretty much

isolated as EU face not just one or

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to but actually a couple of 100, at

least, white people - now some of

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them young and some of them old- who

had gathered to try to block any

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black student getting into school

that day.

Yes. That was shocking.

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What was more shocking to me was

that I had thought that a National

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Guard was there to protect all

students, including me. They were

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there to keep me out and I did not

realise that an deal I was turned

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away the third time and, even

directed to go across the street,

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where those angry voices were.

I

have been reading some of the words

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directed at you. 15 years old, Lynch

hurt, people said, they used the end

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of word. People said get out of

school, go back to where you came

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from.

And some said, they thought I

should go back... LAUGHTER.

Even

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though you were born and raised in

their town.

Some believe that I was

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somebody who had been brought here

specifically to disrupt their

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life...

To make trouble. Yes. What

innocent is made of this

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particularly remarkable for you and

lived through the ages as your

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experience was one photograph. The

picture is remarkable for lots of

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different reasons. I mean, that

dignity in your pose and the sense

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of isolation amongst all those white

faces that there is in new but of

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course the other reason it is

remarkable is because it captures

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the rage of one young woman, a

fellow student, Hazel brand, who is

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right behind you and her face is

twisted in a shout. At that time,

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were you aware of her presence and

her shouting?

For a long time, I did

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not know who she was and finally I

did learn her first name but, after

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a while, I forgot it.

The trauma you

went to the top you had to turn

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back, the National guard were not

going to let you in, the people did

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not want you in and you just had to

turn around. I just wonder why your

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parents, at that point, did not say,

enough, we cannot put Elizabeth

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through that again and we are going

to have to go back on this planet

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and put back in the black school.

My

mother had been an accommodated to

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avoid difficulty with white people.

She had grown up in Royal Arkansas

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-- rural. Their livelihood dependent

on the goodwill of white people. She

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came to Little Rock as a teenager in

order to get an education and she's

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not unique in that.

When we get to

the reality of what it was like you

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inside the school, here are some

quotations I have taken for what

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were later released papers of the

headmistress of the school. Later we

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found this, an account of the days

after you had gone into the school.

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October 28, Elizabeth shoved in the

whole weight. -- Hollway. Jostled in

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the gym. Hit with an implement.

Kicked. Elisabeth punched. Elisabeth

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shoved on the stairs. Elisabeth

knocked flat. That was your reality?

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Yes. And... A lot of horrible things

that happened were in the gym. Our

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show is did not have petitions

between people so when the water

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turned suddenly hot, very hot, I

could see that the girl on the side

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and this side had turned the water.

They had anticipated it, which

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brings to mind the many, many

bystanders who turned their backs

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and acted like they didn't hear or

see what was happening. That makes a

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person who is being attacked feel

like they think we are getting what

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we deserved and that is one thing

that encouraged encourages me to

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speak out, to let people know how

powerful they can be in someone's

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life who is being set apart and

attacked and other people are

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ignoring it. There were two students

at my school who engage me in

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ordinary conversation every day.

Why

students?

Yes to white students and

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a new debate had to have paid a

price for that. I did not know what

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until many years later, I learned

the girl who lived outside the town,

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on a farm, and her father hired

armed guards and the boy was

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supported by his parents.

The

atmosphere was toxic, really. Yes.

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And this very year you have written

a book about bullying and what

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children experience when they are

terribly bullied. I just wonder now

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that you reflect on it, you think

that, frankly, it damage due in ways

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that you have had to live with the

rest of your life?

Yes, that is

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apparent when I hear outside

noises... But most of the attacks

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were behind me and I only turned

around 1's and so I couldn't

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identify my attackers and... But

what was most important to me were

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the people who supported me and that

allowed me to tell students,

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particularly, that they can help

somebody live another day by

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engaging them in a humane way, by

acknowledging that even though they

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are different that that difference

does not mean that they would hate

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them. That is very powerful to a

person who is being hurt and

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isolated.

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the individual, is suffered so much

on what you did was part of

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something that was much bigger, that

is the struggle for civil rights and

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it was not just about the

segregating the schools, it was

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about so many other things too, but

do you think in a sense, I was

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sacrificed to a bigger, wider

movement?

It was a self-sacrifice,

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self-sacrifice. I had to make a

decision every day that I was going

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to go back into that hellhole. I

knew what I would be facing after a

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while. But... One of the Little Rock

nine was a girl who had a hole in

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the heart, years and years before

open-heart surgery was available. In

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fact, she did not have surgery until

after she had graduated from college

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and she was in a crisis. So... How

could I leave her behind?

I wonder

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if it ultimately helps you to come

back to Little Rock because after

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school, you spent quite a few years

out of this place, and I know those

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were really tough years for you.

Yes, I didn't know the full extent

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of, of my experiences. I did not

know how damaging, how damaged I

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was. But I felt like I was fortunate

to be in an environment where people

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did not know anything about my

background.

Rights, you want to just

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be out of that for a while.

Yeah.

That it was not making you happy

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because you were...

No, I had

periodic depression, serious

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depression. But, I never knew. I did

not understand why. I did not

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understand that I have post, big

stress. And they have... I did not

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start talking to students until

1990... Seven, I think.

Which is 40

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years after.

Yes. Well, for 30

years, none of this talk about what

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was like for in school. Most people

think the worst happened on the

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first day.

Yeah.

But was much more

than that.

But also brings me to ask

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you about the complicated

relationship that you developed with

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hazel Brown, who was the girl were

referred to earlier in the picture,

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Liz yelling at you with hate in her

face.

Yes, yes. The photographer who

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took that picture introduced me to

her a couple of days before the 40th

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anniversary, and... I knew that she

felt a lot of trepidation about

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going public. She had told her sons,

who were the older kid, about the

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picture that they would encounter.

-- kids. To prepare them, but I

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remember being with her family

members and I remember her daughter

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saying, that she was looking through

a book and she said that is my

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mother. She had not been prepared.

But the point is, Hazel wanted...

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She wanted... She wanted to reach

out to you.

Yes, she had called me

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in 1963, during the summer, to

apologise. But she never said what

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she was apologising for.

How do you,

what do you mean by that? You think

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that somehow she wanted you to

forgive her that she did not want to

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delve deep into... Where she was out

on what she had done?

Yes, yes, yes.

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In fact, I began to realise, we

spent two years together.

Umina

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after 97.

Yes. Gradually I began to

realise that she was not

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acknowledging the full extent of

what she had done.

-- you mean.

She

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told one reporter that life is more

than a moment and she should not be

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judged just on that moment, but also

I had acquired is three different

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videotapes of her having some

moments. -- had acquired three. She

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eventually said that she had amnesia

about the past.

Umina about other

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incidents where she was expressing

racism?

Yeah, and the parents

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removed her from Central sometime

during March, no, I am sorry, much

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earlier than that. Sometime during

October, 1957, they said for her

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safety.

I just wonder if here, there

may be some deeper sort of metaphor

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about where America is because

reconciliation is not easy.

No, it

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isn't.

You know, you have had the

congressional medal, you have had

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meetings with your Clinton and

statues erected in your honour and

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the Little Rock nine's honour, and

you have become a hugely respected

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figure because of the way you have

handled your own personal

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experience, but in the end, for

America to really come to terms with

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all of this is not about just

putting up statues and giving gold

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medal is out, it is about every

person's heart and mind changing.

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And I wonder if you feel that is

really happening.

This is my mantra.

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The only way we can have real

reconciliation is to honestly

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acknowledge our painful is not

shared past.

Let me ask you this. I

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dare say it not so very far from

this house they will be a young

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15-year-old black girl who is

currently enrolled in Central high,

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here in Little Rock. Do you believe

that her life, her opportunities,

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her experience, is going to be much

better, much easier, for sure, then

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yours or not?

I know that the

possibilities for her future art,

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will be... Better than mine were.

Because so much has changed,

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especially opportunities for women.

But... That depends upon her being

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prepared, prepared. I tell students

that it is their obligation to

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prepare themselves for their

futures, and those who do not repair

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it will be cast aside. I do not

pretty it up, I just tell them

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straight up they will be cast aside.

We have talked a lot about what has

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happened in the States in your long

life, and I just wonder when we

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talked about the journey and you

express your concerns about America

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today, EU said the journey is

nowhere near complete, in fact, we

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are still near the beginning, but do

you have faith that ultimately, that

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journey will lead to a place where

the races are equal, where justice

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and equality are guaranteed for all

Americans, including black

0:22:490:22:53

Americans?

That is my hope for the

future. But it's been a long time

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coming, and it will be... I don't

know whether I will live to see it.

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I do not know whether I will live to

see it. But... That's my hope for

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the future. I understand my place in

history, I am an historical

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footnote. That is 1am, not a

celebrity. When I started talking to

0:23:250:23:30

students, I would cry during my

presentations. -- that is what I M.

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I have worked my way to wear that

does not happen any more but I guess

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I was doing my own exposure therapy.

-- I am. I did not even know about

0:23:450:23:53

exposure therapy until recent years.

Elizabeth Eckford, it has been a

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real honour to talk to you and thank

you for letting me into your house

0:23:570:24:02

and thank you for being on HARDtalk.

Thank you. When I had an opportunity

0:24:020:24:05

to speak to the public, I always

remind them of how powerful their

0:24:050:24:10

voices can be in support of a person

who is being hurt.

0:24:100:24:17

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