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Now on BBC News it's
time for HARDtalk. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:03 | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:21 | |
I'm Stephen Sackur. | 0:00:22 | 0:00:27 | |
Nowadays, Arkansas, little rock, is
associated with Bill Clinton. But | 0:00:27 | 0:00:35 | |
little rock has another import blaze
in American recent history. It was | 0:00:35 | 0:00:42 | |
here at Little Rock Central High
School that one of the key battles | 0:00:42 | 0:00:47 | |
of the civil rights era was fought. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:49 | |
In September 1957, nine
African American students, | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
including Elizabeth Eckford,
entered the all-white | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
Little Rock Central High School
in Arkansas, thereby breaking | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
the racial segregation barrier in US
schools for the first time. | 0:00:55 | 0:01:01 | |
They became known as
the Little Rock Nine. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
Two years earlier the US
Supreme Court had ruled segregation | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
in schools to be unconstitutional. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:13 | |
Little Rock Nine one of their right
to enter Little Rock Central High | 0:01:14 | 0:01:19 | |
School. Like Rosa Parks before them,
they came to embody the bravery | 0:01:19 | 0:01:26 | |
behind the civil rights struggle. My
guess today is one of them. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:31 | |
Elizabeth Eckford. She was just 15
in 1957 but one extraordinary | 0:01:31 | 0:01:39 | |
photograph ensures that her role
will be forever remembered. Little | 0:01:39 | 0:01:48 | |
Rock Central High School Little Rock
Central High | 0:01:48 | 0:01:54 | |
Elizabeth Eckford, welcome to
HARDtalk and thank you very much for | 0:02:10 | 0:02:17 | |
inviting me into your home. You are
very welcome. Let me begin by asking | 0:02:17 | 0:02:23 | |
is something that struck me entering
your house. You have had six decades | 0:02:23 | 0:02:29 | |
of people eating a path to your
door, wanting to talk to you | 0:02:29 | 0:02:34 | |
because, as it happened, you played
an extraordinary role as an | 0:02:34 | 0:02:39 | |
individual in the civil rights
movement in the United States. Do | 0:02:39 | 0:02:45 | |
you ever sometimes wish things had
gone differently? That you did not | 0:02:45 | 0:02:51 | |
have all this attention? When I was
a child, I was very shy, I was a | 0:02:51 | 0:03:00 | |
submissive child from a household
where my parents, frankly, were | 0:03:00 | 0:03:05 | |
benevolent Ali oligarchs. We knew
they loved us. Two jobs to take | 0:03:05 | 0:03:15 | |
care, six kids to take care of. In
this house? It does not look the | 0:03:15 | 0:03:23 | |
same but it was the same. It was not
a household that was full of | 0:03:23 | 0:03:30 | |
radicalism, the beginnings of the
demand for civil rights equality and | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
justice. How can it be that you, as
a shy, timid 15 it-year-old, ended | 0:03:34 | 0:03:41 | |
up on that first list of black
students who were going to roll at | 0:03:41 | 0:03:47 | |
the White high school? Actually, it
almost didn't happen. I asked my | 0:03:47 | 0:03:55 | |
mother during spring that we had
learned it would be desegregated. I | 0:03:55 | 0:04:03 | |
called her the Queen of now, now
that she is not around at this time | 0:04:03 | 0:04:08 | |
she did not say no and that was an
characteristic of my mother. This is | 0:04:08 | 0:04:15 | |
what a writer who wrote a very
interesting and long piece about you | 0:04:15 | 0:04:21 | |
on the 50th anniversary of the
events at Little Rock Central High | 0:04:21 | 0:04:26 | |
School. She was painfully shy
15-year-old daughter of a hyper | 0:04:26 | 0:04:35 | |
protective mother who was reluctant
to challenge the racial Morais and, | 0:04:35 | 0:04:42 | |
in fact, Elizabeth was the
unlikeliest child blaze of all. Yes, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:49 | |
not only because of my personality
because of my mother. In our | 0:04:49 | 0:04:55 | |
household... Both parents were
always on the same page for the | 0:04:55 | 0:05:02 | |
Ossetians. It took a long time to
get to yes for them and so when | 0:05:02 | 0:05:09 | |
names of the 17 students who were
selected were in the newspaper, I | 0:05:09 | 0:05:15 | |
told my parents that it was almost
too late, that I had to go. The | 0:05:15 | 0:05:22 | |
reason I wanted to go is that I
wanted to get the best education | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
possible. I had been brought up in a
working-class family but I had been | 0:05:26 | 0:05:32 | |
brought up with the assumption that
I would go to college and I knew | 0:05:32 | 0:05:36 | |
that, to do that, I needed to get
scholarships. Do you think that you | 0:05:36 | 0:05:43 | |
or your mum or your dad had any idea
of the scale of the opposition and | 0:05:43 | 0:05:50 | |
the hate and violence that could be
started up by whites in this town? | 0:05:50 | 0:05:58 | |
This was a total shock. Violence in
schools was not part of the 1950s | 0:05:58 | 0:06:04 | |
and it being allowed to continue day
after day... First it was thought | 0:06:04 | 0:06:13 | |
things would get better as timed to
sign and when it didn't change and | 0:06:13 | 0:06:19 | |
even a few students who had made
friendly overtures to us now turned | 0:06:19 | 0:06:26 | |
their backs so the only voices of
being heard were the voices of | 0:06:26 | 0:06:31 | |
people who were organised to attack
us, both physically and verbally... | 0:06:31 | 0:06:38 | |
Who were systematically racist. Yes
stop the fall spending time thinking | 0:06:38 | 0:06:45 | |
about the impact that had a new ones
you started Little Rock Central High | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
School, lets think about the moment
that you were actually the first | 0:06:49 | 0:06:55 | |
black student to appear at the high
school, September four, and because | 0:06:55 | 0:07:00 | |
of a bit of a mixup over timing, the
other eight were not with you? But I | 0:07:00 | 0:07:07 | |
was not the only one who came there
independently. Terence Roberts who | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
lived with him walking distance of
the school, less than ten blocks | 0:07:11 | 0:07:17 | |
away, walked to the school, and
after he was turned away, he came | 0:07:17 | 0:07:24 | |
and tried to encourage me to leave
with him. The fact is, the several | 0:07:24 | 0:07:30 | |
minutes, you are pretty much
isolated as EU face not just one or | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
to but actually a couple of 100, at
least, white people - now some of | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
them young and some of them old- who
had gathered to try to block any | 0:07:40 | 0:07:46 | |
black student getting into school
that day. Yes. That was shocking. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:52 | |
What was more shocking to me was
that I had thought that a National | 0:07:52 | 0:07:58 | |
Guard was there to protect all
students, including me. They were | 0:07:58 | 0:08:03 | |
there to keep me out and I did not
realise that an deal I was turned | 0:08:03 | 0:08:08 | |
away the third time and, even
directed to go across the street, | 0:08:08 | 0:08:13 | |
where those angry voices were. I
have been reading some of the words | 0:08:13 | 0:08:18 | |
directed at you. 15 years old, Lynch
hurt, people said, they used the end | 0:08:18 | 0:08:28 | |
of word. People said get out of
school, go back to where you came | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
from. And some said, they thought I
should go back... LAUGHTER. Even | 0:08:33 | 0:08:43 | |
though you were born and raised in
their town. Some believe that I was | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
somebody who had been brought here
specifically to disrupt their | 0:08:47 | 0:08:56 | |
life... To make trouble. Yes. What
innocent is made of this | 0:08:56 | 0:09:05 | |
particularly remarkable for you and
lived through the ages as your | 0:09:05 | 0:09:09 | |
experience was one photograph. The
picture is remarkable for lots of | 0:09:09 | 0:09:15 | |
different reasons. I mean, that
dignity in your pose and the sense | 0:09:15 | 0:09:21 | |
of isolation amongst all those white
faces that there is in new but of | 0:09:21 | 0:09:26 | |
course the other reason it is
remarkable is because it captures | 0:09:26 | 0:09:31 | |
the rage of one young woman, a
fellow student, Hazel brand, who is | 0:09:31 | 0:09:38 | |
right behind you and her face is
twisted in a shout. At that time, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
were you aware of her presence and
her shouting? For a long time, I did | 0:09:42 | 0:09:50 | |
not know who she was and finally I
did learn her first name but, after | 0:09:50 | 0:09:57 | |
a while, I forgot it. The trauma you
went to the top you had to turn | 0:09:57 | 0:10:03 | |
back, the National guard were not
going to let you in, the people did | 0:10:03 | 0:10:08 | |
not want you in and you just had to
turn around. I just wonder why your | 0:10:08 | 0:10:14 | |
parents, at that point, did not say,
enough, we cannot put Elizabeth | 0:10:14 | 0:10:20 | |
through that again and we are going
to have to go back on this planet | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
and put back in the black school. My
mother had been an accommodated to | 0:10:24 | 0:10:31 | |
avoid difficulty with white people.
She had grown up in Royal Arkansas | 0:10:31 | 0:10:39 | |
-- rural. Their livelihood dependent
on the goodwill of white people. She | 0:10:39 | 0:10:47 | |
came to Little Rock as a teenager in
order to get an education and she's | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
not unique in that. When we get to
the reality of what it was like you | 0:10:51 | 0:10:57 | |
inside the school, here are some
quotations I have taken for what | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
were later released papers of the
headmistress of the school. Later we | 0:11:01 | 0:11:09 | |
found this, an account of the days
after you had gone into the school. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:14 | |
October 28, Elizabeth shoved in the
whole weight. -- Hollway. Jostled in | 0:11:14 | 0:11:23 | |
the gym. Hit with an implement.
Kicked. Elisabeth punched. Elisabeth | 0:11:23 | 0:11:33 | |
shoved on the stairs. Elisabeth
knocked flat. That was your reality? | 0:11:33 | 0:11:41 | |
Yes. And... A lot of horrible things
that happened were in the gym. Our | 0:11:41 | 0:11:53 | |
show is did not have petitions
between people so when the water | 0:11:53 | 0:12:02 | |
turned suddenly hot, very hot, I
could see that the girl on the side | 0:12:02 | 0:12:07 | |
and this side had turned the water.
They had anticipated it, which | 0:12:07 | 0:12:13 | |
brings to mind the many, many
bystanders who turned their backs | 0:12:13 | 0:12:22 | |
and acted like they didn't hear or
see what was happening. That makes a | 0:12:22 | 0:12:30 | |
person who is being attacked feel
like they think we are getting what | 0:12:30 | 0:12:36 | |
we deserved and that is one thing
that encouraged encourages me to | 0:12:36 | 0:12:46 | |
speak out, to let people know how
powerful they can be in someone's | 0:12:46 | 0:12:51 | |
life who is being set apart and
attacked and other people are | 0:12:51 | 0:12:57 | |
ignoring it. There were two students
at my school who engage me in | 0:12:57 | 0:13:07 | |
ordinary conversation every day. Why
students? Yes to white students and | 0:13:07 | 0:13:14 | |
a new debate had to have paid a
price for that. I did not know what | 0:13:14 | 0:13:22 | |
until many years later, I learned
the girl who lived outside the town, | 0:13:22 | 0:13:27 | |
on a farm, and her father hired
armed guards and the boy was | 0:13:27 | 0:13:35 | |
supported by his parents. The
atmosphere was toxic, really. Yes. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:41 | |
And this very year you have written
a book about bullying and what | 0:13:41 | 0:13:49 | |
children experience when they are
terribly bullied. I just wonder now | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
that you reflect on it, you think
that, frankly, it damage due in ways | 0:13:53 | 0:14:01 | |
that you have had to live with the
rest of your life? Yes, that is | 0:14:01 | 0:14:06 | |
apparent when I hear outside
noises... But most of the attacks | 0:14:06 | 0:14:14 | |
were behind me and I only turned
around 1's and so I couldn't | 0:14:14 | 0:14:19 | |
identify my attackers and... But
what was most important to me were | 0:14:19 | 0:14:27 | |
the people who supported me and that
allowed me to tell students, | 0:14:27 | 0:14:38 | |
particularly, that they can help
somebody live another day by | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
engaging them in a humane way, by
acknowledging that even though they | 0:14:42 | 0:14:51 | |
are different that that difference
does not mean that they would hate | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
them. That is very powerful to a
person who is being hurt and | 0:14:55 | 0:15:01 | |
isolated. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:08 | |
the individual, is suffered so much
on what you did was part of | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
something that was much bigger, that
is the struggle for civil rights and | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
it was not just about the
segregating the schools, it was | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
about so many other things too, but
do you think in a sense, I was | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
sacrificed to a bigger, wider
movement? It was a self-sacrifice, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
self-sacrifice. I had to make a
decision every day that I was going | 0:15:27 | 0:15:32 | |
to go back into that hellhole. I
knew what I would be facing after a | 0:15:32 | 0:15:37 | |
while. But... One of the Little Rock
nine was a girl who had a hole in | 0:15:37 | 0:15:45 | |
the heart, years and years before
open-heart surgery was available. In | 0:15:45 | 0:15:53 | |
fact, she did not have surgery until
after she had graduated from college | 0:15:53 | 0:15:58 | |
and she was in a crisis. So... How
could I leave her behind? I wonder | 0:15:58 | 0:16:08 | |
if it ultimately helps you to come
back to Little Rock because after | 0:16:08 | 0:16:12 | |
school, you spent quite a few years
out of this place, and I know those | 0:16:12 | 0:16:19 | |
were really tough years for you.
Yes, I didn't know the full extent | 0:16:19 | 0:16:25 | |
of, of my experiences. I did not
know how damaging, how damaged I | 0:16:25 | 0:16:31 | |
was. But I felt like I was fortunate
to be in an environment where people | 0:16:31 | 0:16:38 | |
did not know anything about my
background. Rights, you want to just | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
be out of that for a while. Yeah.
That it was not making you happy | 0:16:41 | 0:16:47 | |
because you were... No, I had
periodic depression, serious | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
depression. But, I never knew. I did
not understand why. I did not | 0:16:51 | 0:16:59 | |
understand that I have post, big
stress. And they have... I did not | 0:16:59 | 0:17:05 | |
start talking to students until
1990... Seven, I think. Which is 40 | 0:17:05 | 0:17:15 | |
years after. Yes. Well, for 30
years, none of this talk about what | 0:17:15 | 0:17:22 | |
was like for in school. Most people
think the worst happened on the | 0:17:22 | 0:17:27 | |
first day. Yeah. But was much more
than that. But also brings me to ask | 0:17:27 | 0:17:32 | |
you about the complicated
relationship that you developed with | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
hazel Brown, who was the girl were
referred to earlier in the picture, | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
Liz yelling at you with hate in her
face. Yes, yes. The photographer who | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
took that picture introduced me to
her a couple of days before the 40th | 0:17:45 | 0:17:52 | |
anniversary, and... I knew that she
felt a lot of trepidation about | 0:17:52 | 0:18:03 | |
going public. She had told her sons,
who were the older kid, about the | 0:18:03 | 0:18:11 | |
picture that they would encounter.
-- kids. To prepare them, but I | 0:18:11 | 0:18:20 | |
remember being with her family
members and I remember her daughter | 0:18:20 | 0:18:25 | |
saying, that she was looking through
a book and she said that is my | 0:18:25 | 0:18:30 | |
mother. She had not been prepared.
But the point is, Hazel wanted... | 0:18:30 | 0:18:40 | |
She wanted... She wanted to reach
out to you. Yes, she had called me | 0:18:40 | 0:18:47 | |
in 1963, during the summer, to
apologise. But she never said what | 0:18:47 | 0:18:52 | |
she was apologising for. How do you,
what do you mean by that? You think | 0:18:52 | 0:18:58 | |
that somehow she wanted you to
forgive her that she did not want to | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
delve deep into... Where she was out
on what she had done? Yes, yes, yes. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:07 | |
In fact, I began to realise, we
spent two years together. Umina | 0:19:07 | 0:19:14 | |
after 97. Yes. Gradually I began to
realise that she was not | 0:19:14 | 0:19:22 | |
acknowledging the full extent of
what she had done. -- you mean. She | 0:19:22 | 0:19:28 | |
told one reporter that life is more
than a moment and she should not be | 0:19:28 | 0:19:33 | |
judged just on that moment, but also
I had acquired is three different | 0:19:33 | 0:19:40 | |
videotapes of her having some
moments. -- had acquired three. She | 0:19:40 | 0:19:49 | |
eventually said that she had amnesia
about the past. Umina about other | 0:19:49 | 0:19:56 | |
incidents where she was expressing
racism? Yeah, and the parents | 0:19:56 | 0:20:01 | |
removed her from Central sometime
during March, no, I am sorry, much | 0:20:01 | 0:20:07 | |
earlier than that. Sometime during
October, 1957, they said for her | 0:20:07 | 0:20:13 | |
safety. I just wonder if here, there
may be some deeper sort of metaphor | 0:20:13 | 0:20:18 | |
about where America is because
reconciliation is not easy. No, it | 0:20:18 | 0:20:23 | |
isn't. You know, you have had the
congressional medal, you have had | 0:20:23 | 0:20:29 | |
meetings with your Clinton and
statues erected in your honour and | 0:20:29 | 0:20:33 | |
the Little Rock nine's honour, and
you have become a hugely respected | 0:20:33 | 0:20:38 | |
figure because of the way you have
handled your own personal | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
experience, but in the end, for
America to really come to terms with | 0:20:42 | 0:20:48 | |
all of this is not about just
putting up statues and giving gold | 0:20:48 | 0:20:52 | |
medal is out, it is about every
person's heart and mind changing. | 0:20:52 | 0:20:57 | |
And I wonder if you feel that is
really happening. This is my mantra. | 0:20:57 | 0:21:02 | |
The only way we can have real
reconciliation is to honestly | 0:21:02 | 0:21:07 | |
acknowledge our painful is not
shared past. Let me ask you this. I | 0:21:07 | 0:21:14 | |
dare say it not so very far from
this house they will be a young | 0:21:14 | 0:21:19 | |
15-year-old black girl who is
currently enrolled in Central high, | 0:21:19 | 0:21:26 | |
here in Little Rock. Do you believe
that her life, her opportunities, | 0:21:26 | 0:21:31 | |
her experience, is going to be much
better, much easier, for sure, then | 0:21:31 | 0:21:38 | |
yours or not? I know that the
possibilities for her future art, | 0:21:38 | 0:21:45 | |
will be... Better than mine were.
Because so much has changed, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:52 | |
especially opportunities for women.
But... That depends upon her being | 0:21:52 | 0:22:01 | |
prepared, prepared. I tell students
that it is their obligation to | 0:22:01 | 0:22:06 | |
prepare themselves for their
futures, and those who do not repair | 0:22:06 | 0:22:12 | |
it will be cast aside. I do not
pretty it up, I just tell them | 0:22:12 | 0:22:18 | |
straight up they will be cast aside.
We have talked a lot about what has | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
happened in the States in your long
life, and I just wonder when we | 0:22:22 | 0:22:27 | |
talked about the journey and you
express your concerns about America | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
today, EU said the journey is
nowhere near complete, in fact, we | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
are still near the beginning, but do
you have faith that ultimately, that | 0:22:36 | 0:22:41 | |
journey will lead to a place where
the races are equal, where justice | 0:22:41 | 0:22:49 | |
and equality are guaranteed for all
Americans, including black | 0:22:49 | 0:22:53 | |
Americans? That is my hope for the
future. But it's been a long time | 0:22:53 | 0:23:02 | |
coming, and it will be... I don't
know whether I will live to see it. | 0:23:02 | 0:23:12 | |
I do not know whether I will live to
see it. But... That's my hope for | 0:23:12 | 0:23:20 | |
the future. I understand my place in
history, I am an historical | 0:23:20 | 0:23:25 | |
footnote. That is 1am, not a
celebrity. When I started talking to | 0:23:25 | 0:23:30 | |
students, I would cry during my
presentations. -- that is what I M. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:39 | |
I have worked my way to wear that
does not happen any more but I guess | 0:23:39 | 0:23:45 | |
I was doing my own exposure therapy.
-- I am. I did not even know about | 0:23:45 | 0:23:53 | |
exposure therapy until recent years.
Elizabeth Eckford, it has been a | 0:23:53 | 0:23:57 | |
real honour to talk to you and thank
you for letting me into your house | 0:23:57 | 0:24:02 | |
and thank you for being on HARDtalk.
Thank you. When I had an opportunity | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
to speak to the public, I always
remind them of how powerful their | 0:24:05 | 0:24:10 | |
voices can be in support of a person
who is being hurt. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:17 |