Johnny Mercer MP - Conservative Party, UK HARDtalk

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Just after half past midnight here

on BBC News, it is time for

Hardtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk,

I'm Stephen Sackur.

Professional politics is a hothouse

world where the inhabitants can seem

far removed from the rough edges

of modern life.

So maybe it's no surprise

that there is a disconnect

between our governors

and the governed.

My guest today is a rarity,

a British MP who was

a front-line soldier.

Johnny Mercer served three

tours in Afghanistan.

He entered politics to make

a difference on issues

he cared about, defence,

veteran's welfare,

and mental health.

But in a Britain preoccupied

with Brexit, is anyone listening?

Johnny Mercer, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thanks.

It was quite a leap that you made

four or so years ago,

when you left the British Army

and decided that you

would enter politics.

Has that transition been

harder or actually easier

than you thought it would be?

Well, I didn't actually have any

preconceptions around

going into politics because I knew

nothing about it.

I'd never voted, been

to Westminster...

Never voted?

Never voted, and I know that's not

a great thing to have done.

But when you're going

through the process of war fighting,

you will go anyway, whoever

the Government is.

One reason or another,

you feel disconnected from that,

and I never got around to voting,

I never had an interest in politics.

So I didn't have any preconceptions

about what it would be like.

Aspects of it have certainly

been difficult, some

aspects, not so much.

But it is a journey,

and I learn something everyday.

We'll talk about the journey

and what you have experienced on it.

But I am interested to know why,

when you quite explicitly say that

you were pretty unimpressed

with the politicians that

you met as a soldier,

foreign secretaries,

even Prime Ministers would come out

to Afghanistan on morale boosting

visits to the troops,

you say that frankly,

you did not think they knew much

about what was going on,

and you felt they were indulging

in pretty simple rhetoric.

So, what on earth attracted

you to that career?

Because actually, when I looked

at them, and you're right,

I felt like that when I looked

at these people, and there

is nothing bad about it,

there just wasn't that connection

between the military

and political systems.

We saw the symptoms of that

through Iraq and Afghanistan,

whether it was a good tactics,

leaving too early or so on.

But I thought if I wanted

to change something,

I have to get elected.

Whatever I say, they have the power

to make executive decisions,

because they're elected.

So if I want to make a decision

or change something,

I have to get elected,

whether that is the military,

mental health...

And those coalesce in your mind.

Look, it was not a pleasant

realisation that I was going

to become a member of Parliament,

it is not something I thought about,

and there are certainly

aspects that are difficult

to get your head around.

Is that not disingenuous?

You can fall into politics,

you have to fight hard

to win your nomination

for your seat, a lot

of doorstep campaigning

to get elected, it's not something

happens by accident.

It is not about politics,

it's not about getting

a career in politics.

It's about using politics

as a vehicle to get things done.

And when you actually believe

in something and want to change it,

you genuinely think that you can

change it, that's why you do it.

So that commitment is huge.

You have written a powerful book

about your military experience.

It seems the Army meant so much

to you, it was almost a family?

I think it is a fair point.

When you join as a young person,

man or woman, I think a lot has been

said about the military over

the last few years,

lots of mistakes have been made,

but one thing that still gets me

is the journey you can go on.

You can join as a young man,

what it gets is a raw product

from society and what turns

into afterwards is a life

enhancing experience.

And it certainly was that for me.

I'm made great friends,

I had great expenses, and yes,

I turned from a boy into a man

in the military.

I'm not ashamed of that,

I was proud of it, something

I was proud to do at the time.

I used the word family advisedly,

because you have also been

surprisingly honest and frank

about a difficult

upbringing you had.

Your family was very large,

you are one of eight children,

very religious parents.

And it seems it was somewhat

chaotic, somewhat hot-tempered,

and you clearly had some mental

health issues as a child.

Because it seems you did not find it

a very stable family environment?

I think that is fair.

I don't want to get into too much,

but it was an unstable environment,

and that caused problems,

as it would for anyone.

Whether for myself or for my wider

family, I think we all cope

with that in its own way.

It was very clear that that part

of your life is very formative,

and it certainly was that for me.

But I left that behind and I joined

the Army, and the army was...

You are being terribly British

about it, because I can tell

you don't want to talk about it.

Although you have written about it,

which is why raised it.

But you say for example,

that religion dominated every

aspect of life at home,

your father, you felt was full

of guilt and expressed that

sometimes in very hot tempered,

difficult reactions to things.

And I am wondering whether the Army

was important to you because it

actually, in a funny way,

despite serving in war zones

on that it gave you a stability that

you hadn't had as a child that

you desperately missed?

Absolutely.

And a child growing up,

you need your left and right,

your boundaries, your stability,

and that predictability

is really important.

Yes, the military provided me

with that in some ways.

This is maybe a difficult question

to answer, but when you reflect

on yourself as a teenager,

and I know you spent time

at boarding school, do you think

you were mentally unwell?

Without a doubt, I think

I struggled with aspects

of my own behaviour,

certainly around

obsessive-compulsive disorder.

And that was an issue that

I recognised in myself,

and I received a bit of help for.

Look, it was part of my history,

absolutely, it was one of the coping

mechanisms that I had growing up.

It was something that

taught me a lot about myself,

about what makes me tick,

what motivates me,

what I struggle to cope with.

And I think I became stronger

for it, there's this perception

around mental health at the moment,

that you get a mental health

problem, and that's it.

There is an area of management

to it, it is an ongoing thing

you need to work on,

but you can get better

and go on to have a life

completely uninhibited.

And that is certainly what the Army

did for me, and moving on from that.

It is very striking, a relatively

struggled -- troubled kid ends up

commanding men on a ferociously

difficult front line in Afghanistan

on three separate tours of duty.

Obviously facing fire numerous

times, and you actually had

extraordinarily difficult

experiences with, for example, one

of your best mates in the Army being

shot through the head in front of

you. Did you than reexperience some

of the mental issues you have had

before, or did you cope?

Is odd

because I know people go through

these things, poster manic stress

has different effects on different

people. Jim Mattis in the state to

command a lot of soldiers going

through rack and Selma -- so long,

there is poster manic growth where

you don't like of these experience

can iron you out. But you realise

you can cope with expenses. I

realise I had a tough time growing

up, but I have to confess that

during my period on operations and

commanding up operations, there are

aspects of it that I found extremely

difficult to readjust to,

particularly when I came home. But I

did not suffer with these issues, in

a way, that they be stronger, and

they certainly made me who I am

today. In a way, I think they

provided a bit of a platform to go

to what I'm doing now. There are

certainly aspects of, things you

acquire around as is, resilience and

loyalty, looking after people, that

you employ now. So now I find that

those operations were a better rock,

informed me as a young man.

Again,

having looked at the book, we were

warriors, your memoir of conflict,

it is extort Barry. You said nothing

prepares you for the repeat expenses

of war. At the end, I felt

estimated, completely destroyed

inside.

And I did, but this was

after a prolonged period of

operation. Citizen born to remember

in Afghanistan, we were putting

British ships through cycles we had

not seen before. Back in World War

II, there were lots more units,

people cycling out of conflicts. In

Afghanistan, we were asking people

to go Amanda lines for six or seven

months at a time, their compact --

conducted two patrols a day. That is

a lot of conflict -- on that. I do

not think that is too much because

we are professional soldiers, we are

ready to do it. But I do think we

need to manage the stress, not only

in theatre, but when they come home.

And that is a duty for everyone, not

just the people who get a hard time,

but all through the chain of

command. We have to be cognizant of

some people's experiences, people

who are different to the map -- best

majority. One out of nine soldiers

who deployed did not leave the wire,

and not all those who left the wire

went into particularly difficult

patrols. So there was a broad

variety of experience, some of us

are addicted in and of the wedge on

that one, and I do think we have a

duty to those who struggle with that

to look after them, that is one of

the things that propelled me into

politics.

When you say leave the

wire, you mean leave the safety of

bases and get out in to the fire?

Do

expenses you had, one where you

found yourself isolated and alone in

a firefight, with a bullet to tell

them firefight -- Taliban fighters

trying to kill you, and Dracula

sleeve described -- survived, but

you describe how utterly frightening

it was and how you shook and shook

when you emerged from it. The other

one was the death of your friend,

who as I said it was shot and died

in the battlefield. I get the

feeling that you do sometimes wonder

whether all of that was worth that,

given what we see today in

Afghanistan.

Do you?

Yes, I in this

country, this is why I came into

politics, because I do feel we have

lost the ability to have the courage

and backbone to see these things

through to an end state where we are

happy with. If you look at our

withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is

like a rock. It was calendar based,

not conditions based, not like how

you should conduct an operation.

Largely what we have done has been

around the British electoral cycle,

and for those of us who fought, that

is very painful to take, because we

are totally committed to the mission

and try to achieve a conditions

based...

Maybe the mission is

unachievable? May be going in with

the view that you can somehow

fundamentally change a society is

misplaced to begin with?

I do not

think it is misplaced, but you have

to commit fully to the task. Whilst

you are going to have to get the

security aspect of things right so

that law and order can take hold,

you have to go harder after

corruption. You cannot allow

officials to be elected who have no

credibility and cannot bring the

people with them. Counterinsurgency

warfare works, but it has to be done

properly, it must be resourced

properly, but ultimately

politically, it must be committed

to. And that is where we filled --

failed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A

recent survey said that 70% of the

territory of the nation is out

operationally open to the Taliban --

Taliban, the American are ram the

presents, there is question over

whether the British should follow

and support in the revving of

operations. Would you think?

I think

we should, we have been very

comfortable in this country, we have

almost become isolationist. You only

have to look at Syria to see how

badly wrong you can get it when you

don't intervene. Intervention is not

pretty, we have this idea and our

head that were in conflict is as

binary, and it is not. It is being

sold as I lie to the British people,

it is a messy business, but I do not

think standing on the sidelines and

letting these things happen like

they are in Afghanistan is the right

answer.

You say that, and a

corollary of that is that more men

go into the danger zone and face the

very real prospect of not coming

back. And yet you say it when you

clearly feel that today, there is

something deeply dysfunctional about

the way the United Kingdom treats

not just its active soldiers, but

its veterans as well? The so-called

military government seems to be

broken, in your view?

Absolutely. I

think there is a serious issue in

this country around its relationship

with the military. Veterans, let's

talk about them. There is a

completeness reception around

veterans, almost anybody who has had

anything to do with the military, it

is statistically impossible for

anyone who's says they have PTSD to

have PTSD, it has become a catchall

environment for any number of

problems that people will hit during

their life. And the problem with

that is that if we do not deal with

that problem, we will not get to

those who are genuinely ill that

need our helps -- held as a result

of those operations. And I think we

have lost an opportunity, through

this Afghanistan and Iraq period,

these great numbers of veterans are

coming out and really gripping this

debate and changing it fundamentally

like Americans after Vietnam.

There's no question that the

American mindset towards it's

veterans is very different than that

of Britain. But you seem to be

saying we in Britain are somewhat

hung up on, for example, exit --

investigating alleged abuses by the

military. We know what happened in a

rack and the years of UK

intervention after 2003. The

implication of what you're saying is

that you do not feel it is right to

invest -- investigate abuses by the

military?

I have been very clear and

straightforward on this from the

start. Anyone in my position always

wants to see allegations and bad

apples investigated, because there's

no place for them.

With respect, you

said things like us, and this is a

direct quote. The unwarranted

pursuit of service personnel through

the courts is a stain on our

national character, the obsession

with historical allegations is

unacceptable.

Absolutely right,

because these individuals are going

through an investigation in the

first place, but what is happening,

people who cannot or do I want to

accept the result of a fair and

impartial investigation, and some

will try to rewrite history, they

are possibly revisiting these

incidents to try and get some sort

of retribution, and is not fair on

the individuals.

For example, those

who have died in custody...

He is a

case of his own, and I have those

who... I understand the case of the

last week, that -- someone died, and

that is not lost on me. But the

reaction to that should not be

investigations over 15 years into

the same soldiers about the same

incident.

But it gets to the heart

of the difference between the United

States and UK. We in the UK hold our

military to the very highest of

standards. And the fact that there

are historical and Dutch

investigations into alleged abuses

into Iraq and Afghanistan, it is

something we should be proud of, not

ashamed of.

I totally dispute the

fact that Americans do not hold

themselves to the highest standards,

that is not what this is about. We

do as well, you only have to look at

recent history as a how we have held

our servicemen to account. I agree

and encourage that, I do not know

anyone serving food does not

encourage that, because we go on

operations to work hard and up of

old rule of law. This is separate,

this is an attempt to continually

pursue these individuals, sometimes

years after they have left service,

and the Government has let this

industry spawned, and it has ruined

lives across this country.

Final

thought, I do not know if you saw

the very end of last year, the chief

prosecutor of the international

criminal Court in The Hague said she

believes there is a reasonable basis

to continue to believe that UK

soldiers committed war crimes

against detainees are in Iraq

conflict.

I would say we need to see

the evidence, because is has been

investigated numbers of times.

Nobody as far as I'm aware, they

have not done a single prosecution

from this. We want to see

prosecutions, if someone has done

something wrong, they must be

prosecuted, but that is not what

this is about.

Many senior military

officials, including senior serving

officers, have suggested in the

recent days and months that they

believe there is a fundamental

problem, that the British Armed

Forces are being hollowed out,

82,000 serving soldiers, concerns

about the Navy and Air Force as

well, and it is no longer a full

spectrum capable fighting force.

I

think it has been a long time

coming. We really struggled in Iraq,

we struggled at the beginning in

Afghanistan, the equipment a lot

better, and I am pleased these

people are speaking up, but there is

more fun little problems than just

money. If I was a Chancellor at the

moment, and I am one of the biggest

advocates of military spending, I

would find it difficult to get the

military more money at the moment

without serious reform. The waste

that goes on at the moment is still

I watering, and we have not had this

national conversation about what we

want the Armed Forces for, what we

expect them to do, what is the

vision of a modern UK military?

Until we have that, I can completely

understand the reticence to

endlessly pour money into the MOD

when you have all these other

priorities that are far more

important to some others, and I

understand that.

Maybe there's not

much right now, Central focus on

these issues, because so much of the

political oxygen is being sucked up

by Brexit. You're a conservative MP,

you say you join the party not for

strong ideological reasons, but

because you had things to

accomplish. And we talked about

those. But you have to take a view

on Brexit now. Are you prepared to

break with your party on the issue

of a customs union, to say that

Britain needs to stay inside a

customs union?

I am not, I'm afraid,

I'm one of those who voted to

remain, if I had my vote again, I

would vote again, I would go to

leave. I can completely see why

swathes of this country decided they

did not want to be part of the

European Union any more, and what

communities in this country have

felt about the EU and how

politicians tried to sell that to

them, that is our job as

politicians, to represent that, and

I can see that across the country. I

was in Munich two weeks ago, and

everyone -- every time I went to the

continent, I could see why this

country wants to leave the EU. We

need to get that done, if I got to

the doors in Plymouth, lots of

people think we have left already,

and we need to get that done. If

that requires leaving the customs

union, then I'm afraid we get on

with it, because people are asking

us to answer other fundamental

questions around the NHS and

economy, and we cannot get onto

those walls we continue to pick up

the bones of Brexit.

A former leader

of your country, John Major, says

this is so important that Parliament

ultimately must decide the fate of

the Brexit deal. He says it should

not be decided on party lines, every

MP should vote with their conscience

in a free vote. Do you agree with

him?

Given the arithmetic of the

moment, it is pretty much a free

vote. I am a huge fan of John

Major... The numbers are very slim,

people are prepared to vote either

way. You will get a situation where

people will vote with their

consciences. But what I would say on

this is John Major, lots of respect

for him and Tony Blair, who has

spoken on this today, we have to

understand that they're selling of

this European Union contest project

contributed to where we are today.

And have people been given a view on

the Lisbon treaty, had we address

people's concerns on immigration, we

would not be here. Now we need a

fresh approach, and that strategic

vision about what Brexit means in

Britain going forward past next

year.

Is interesting you say we need

a strategic vision, you're not

getting that from Theresa May. Is it

time for somebody else to lead your

party?

Changing Prime Minister at

the moment is one of the worst

things we could possibly do, because

we have to form a resilient base

around her so she can go to the

European Union iMac you said this

government, very recently, it is

being too resident to meet the

challenges of the day.

We need

leadership.

We need leadership.

Every time Theresa May does

something, whether she says a

statement about leaving the Dutch

customs union or not leaving the

customs union, she gets a lesson for

my colleagues on one side of the

argument. And she is hemmed in by

this process. However you feel about

Brexit now, any division apart from

the premise or and away from the

Government, if you are a member of

this party, if you look at it from

Europe, you can only see that we are

going to get seen off, and we will

get...

Isn't the truth of -- that

this is tearing her party apart?

I

do not accept that, I accept that

there are serious challenges around

this. I would not stick my hand in

the sand and pretend it isn't. But I

do not think this is a valid --

defining issue of the Conservative

Party. I know I can be alone in that

regard, but I think being part of

the modern Conservative Party is not

getting things right, like public

services, infrastructure, that is

what being in this party is about.

This is an issue we absolutely have

to tackle because it has been going

on for long before I turned up here.

But when we get to 2019, we have to

give people to vote for.

Johnny

Mercer, we must end it there, but

thank you for being on Hardtalk.

Pleasure, thanks very much.

Thank

you very much indeed.