Ramush Haradinaj - Prime Minister of Kosovo HARDtalk


Ramush Haradinaj - Prime Minister of Kosovo

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five in Poland, two in Romania.

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Now on BBC News...

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Time for HardTalk.

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Welcome to Hardtalk, I am Stephen

Sackur. It is ten years since Kosovo

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became Europe's newest nation. It

has not been an easy decade.

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Relations with neighbouring Serbia

remain hostile, and international

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recognition has been patchy. Kosovo

is still struggling to get on top of

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endemic poverty and corruption. My

guest today is Kosovo's Prime

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Minister Ramush Haradinaj. Can

Kosovo escape its troubled history?

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Ramush Haradinaj, welcome to

Hardtalk.

Thank you.

You have had

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ten years of Kosovan independence.

To the outsider it looks like a

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story of hopes dashed and ambitions

thwarted. Is that what it feels like

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to you?

The foundation of a state,

it is there. It is ten years, if not

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anything else, it has been learning

to be ourselves. Facing and making

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mistakes, learning from our

mistakes. And Kosovo exists in

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strong foundation.

Do you really

think so?

Yes.

When one looks at

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Kosovo today, one sees that despite

claims to independence, a

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significant nation, with Russia and

China, but five Nations within the

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EU do not even recognise your

sovereign independence.

This is not

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the end of the project today, where

we are. Infrastructure, economy, it

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exists. Institutions of the state

exist. Today, we are members of

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different international

organisations, and have been

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recognised by a number of

organisations. We are in the

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direction to be a member of UN and

the EU. We do not stop here.

What

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you want to tell me is the direction

of travel is positive that if one

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looks at recent developments, for

example, the European Parliamentary

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reporter on Kosovo says that because

of actions your government has

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taken, Kosovo is no "Off the train

of liberalisation of its

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relationship with the European

Union". In other words, you are

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going in the wrong direction?

We had

some challenges, there were

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different topics of discussion but

finally we are structured again,

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going in the right direction.

How do

you feel, then, when Jean-Claude

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Juncker, the president of the

European Commission, says quite

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openly that when it comes to the

Balkans, Serbia and Montenegro are

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at the front of the queue for EU

membership. They would like to see

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them inside the club by 2025 and he

gives no indication at all that

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there is a target date for Kosovo.

Many people believe it is impossible

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to imagine Kosovo inside the EU.

In

Russia, they do not even showing our

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flag because they do not recognise

us.

But their problem is your

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problem, that is my point.

Yes, and

I had congratulations from them on

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our tenth anniversary of

independence. We exist, we are a

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member of the family. We have to

find a solution to be recognised and

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with Serbia.

That is something that

has to happen. You have led me to my

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next question. The key to

normalisation of your statehood and

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your future. That is, the

relationship with Serbia. How are

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you going to move from the current

suspicion and mistrust, the

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hostility, to a normalised

relationship with your neighbour?

We

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have two strong arguments. One is

our constitution is an advanced one.

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We had a very advanced Constitution.

The second is the position of Kosovo

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Serbs in the country. A community

that is respected and granted the

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most row is possible that a

constitution could grant their

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community. Based on that, we have

cohesion -- the most rights.

It is

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one thing having constitutional

rights for the Serbian minority

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written in the constitution but

another is safeguarding their

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security. We did see a few weeks ago

a member of the Kosovo community

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gunned down on the streets of

Mitchell Beazer.

That is very tragic

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news. The Deputy Prime Minister is a

Serb, and I have many colleagues I

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work with from the north. But in

this case, nobody is pointing

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fingers.

But let me quote to you

another significant Kosovo

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politician who has said that the

government wants to integrate the

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land but not integrate us, the

people, the Serbs.

This government

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is doing, I would say, honest work

to respect Kosovo Serbs and

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integrate the people, we work with

the people...

In that case, why did

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you, the Prime Minister, blocks the

planned Association of Serb

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municipalities. The plans for

Serbian communities, why did you

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like that?

If you look at the other

cases, it did not function that

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well. The cessation of

municipalities, it was presented. In

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fact, our constitutional accord has

ruled on that. We are able to

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implement the cessation based on our

Constitution.

Essentially, you need

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a settlement of your hostile

relationship with Serbia and Serbia

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needs at too, without it Serbia

cannot join the EU in 2025 and you

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cannot get recognition and a place

at the European table. You both need

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it. You prepared to cede territory,

a little portion of territory in the

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north of your nation, seed it to

Serbia to settle this dispute?

You

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are just throwing away everything in

the past. The pieces because of

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people, not land or territories.

What is the answer to my question?

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-- peace. Can you imagine giving

away territory to make final peace

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with Serbia?

My answer is this, this

has led to war is in the Balkans.

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I'm not in favour of another one. We

are a victim, as Kosovo Albanians.

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The whole wall stood with what

happened at the time. In changing

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borders and mixing territories, that

is how tragedies happen.

There is a

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window of opportunity here. We have

a Prime Minister in Serbia. Yes, he

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was a nationalist in the past that

he has become a man determined to

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take Serbia towards a European

future. Too many people that means

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he appears more broody for

compromise than Serbian leaders of

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the past. He has talked about

wanting to respect the needs of

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Serbia's children rather than

Serbia's ancestors. He, for you, is

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a window of opportunity. You

prepared to reach out to him?

We are

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interested to sit at the table, and

to finish what is left between

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Kosovo and Serbia. That is the

recognition. They are part of the

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forgiveness. Not to forget but

forgiveness. I believe it is the

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time to do so. We are prepared for

that but this is not a trade of

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territories.

This is not... You are

categorical about that. Some people

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talk about a land swap that you

could give territory to the Serbs

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and they can give territory to you

which is majority Kosovo Albanians.

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The borders in the Balkans, and

today the territories are a result

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of some wars from the past. If we

open that question it is a

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never-ending story. We still have

rules, after the last tragedies. We

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don't want to forget that.

You talk

about wounds and tragedies. Another

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element of Kosovo moving forward is

your nation truly accounting for the

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recent past. This raises the issue

of justice. For crimes committed

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during the period of war in the late

90s. You appeared to support a

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special legal chamber created in

2015 by the Kosovan parliament, to

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investigate historical crimes. Then,

you appear to change your mind. You

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told the press in January that you

were not for the court, in

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opposition, and against it now. Be

clear with me, are you for or

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against the court?

Kosovo was open

and transparent, for the past and

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for the truth. And for the right of

victims and the rights of people and

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all allegations. The United Nations

administrated Kosovo for nine years

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and established courts, prosecutors

and prosecuted many Kosovo

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Albanians.

But people watching and

listening may not know that this

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special chamber, the Kosovan

Parliament approved of it, would sit

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in The Hague but follow Kosovan law

and would consider specific crimes

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committed in the past. Are you for

or against the court?

People in the

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world deserve to know, to realise,

that this is the fourth operation to

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bring justice to Kosovo. The first

was the United Nations, the second

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was former Yugoslavia...

You have

two trials.

In the name of justice

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on behalf of my nation.

That was run

by the International criminal Court

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at The Hague.

The third is the

European rule of law...

You are not

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answering my question...

On the

fourth one, it was judged only

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Albanians, only for selected crimes,

and it was out of the country.

I

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would prefer that. But it was

ratified by the Kosovan Parliament?

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Fair enough.

Now you are denying...

No, not deniable. The court exists.

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But it is good to realise when this

quarter rights, and the criticism of

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this court, there is criticism of

this court.

More to the point there

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is criticism of this court from your

own brother. Like you he was a KLA

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fighter and recently he has said

that KLA fighters will prevent

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action by anyone who intends to

profit politically from making

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arrests in this special court. It

sounds like you and your family are

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doing whatever it takes to block

these activities.

Not true at all.

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We respect the rule of law. I did it

in my time, my brother did it. We

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went to trial and court...

He is not

prepared to go through this one.

Why

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profit politically, if you are

talking about justice or political

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profit? There is something in these

answers.

It has become a big issue,

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inside and outside of the country. I

will quote you the head of the

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Kosovo Democratic Institute. He says

the government shows immaturity and

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signs of panic and is risking

isolation from the international

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community who helped us declare

independence in the first place.

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Umm, that is exaggerated! This is

not the case of the government of

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Kosovo. It is a sustainable

government. A very serious one. But

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it reflects the feelings and beliefs

of the nation. It is not always the

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international community. Everything

they did, they did it right.

The

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Americans and Europeans are people

who helped deliver Kosovan

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independence and... Sorry, to

continue, they say they condemn what

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they see as backtracking on the

special chamber court and they say

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there will be "Severe consequences

for Kosovo's International and

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Yerevan antic integration if the

government continues on this course.

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Can I put it more clearly? MPs of

our Parliament have criticised and

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have different views to this court.

As a government, we respect

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obligations that have been taken but

we have a respect for that criticism

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as well. It is a well founded

criticism. In the 21st-century, it

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is a mono ethnic court.

And not

entirely clear with what you are

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saying. You prepared to accept the

authority of this court and accept

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its judgments?

We always have been.

The Kosovo government and

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institution always has been. After

any result, we stay under

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obligations that we have taken but

we take obligation of the court. We

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have one system operating out of the

country, it is the fourth operation

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to bring justice. The second is mono

ethnic.

And what about the specific

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allegations but towards the Council

of Europe, which may well end up

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before the special chamber. The KLA,

you were a senior commander of it in

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Kosovo during the war, the KLA were

involved not just in murders,

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torture, rape victims, but also in

organised in people smuggling and

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drugrunning -- rape of victims.

Should those allegations be aired in

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this special court?

Many people

would find the verdict in my case.

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You would see what an honourable

Judge says in the end of a second

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trial, they proved that the KLA were

not doing that. They did not find

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that we have been doing that. I

believe the allegations are false.

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Let's talk about the different ways

on how the international community

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are concerned about backtracking

from your government. It concerns

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the separate border dispute that you

have with Montenegrin. It looked as

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though you, the Kosovan government

in 2015, were prepared to reach a

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deal with Montenegrin --

Montenegrin. I believe that involved

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sending back several thousand

hectares back to the Montenegro

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government. You said that the border

agreement was not transparent to our

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Parliament. Does that mean you no

longer accept the agreement?

We have

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reached consensus with the

Montenegrin government, they have

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agreed to review and correct in two

directions where the dispute was. It

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gives enough arguments to vote it in

our Parliament. In the next few days

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hopefully we will be coming together

to rectify it.

Until you ratify, the

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European Union has said it will not

consider these liberalisation is for

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Kosovans who want to travel inside

of the EU. There is linkage, once

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again the Europeans are judging the

Kosovan government of failing to

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live up to international standards

and unless you do so, your

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relationship with the EU will

clearly suffer. It is very strange,

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the fact that that would happen,

Visa liberalisation. We are members

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of Nato and still have disputes on

their own borders -- they are

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members of Nato. It is very unfair.

But cat Brussels attitude to

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Brussels -- but if you look at

brussels attitude to Kosovo today,

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you are the poorest country in

Europe. According to the CIA fact

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book, they release one every year

looking at the basics of every

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economy, they reckon that your youth

unemployment is close to 60%. Your

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average income is a tiny fraction of

the EU average. Your economy is so

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far behind, it is, again, very hard

to see how you could ever get close

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to acceptable convergence.

OK... In

Europe, you are becoming older and

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older. You are the youngest nation

in Europe, as population. And many

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people had to leave the country

because there are no jobs?

In the

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case of producing an offer in your

countries, in Kosovo, they have

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potential. In energy, in the mining

sector, in food production and in

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innovation. Young and talented

people. They are like that because

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we inherited no economy at all. The

war devastated Kosovo. No

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infrastructure at all. Today, we are

nearly finishing the highways of our

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country, railways need to be

constructive. Water and electricity

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supply to families, not just for

houses and businesses but for the

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whole country. We have an investment

in energy of 1,000,000,000.3. -- 1.3

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billion. Kosovo is struggling but

here we are.

Yes, and with an

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economy that is far behind the

European standard, we can agree. But

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also an economy that has laid low by

corruption. Corruption is killing

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economic growth in your country. I

mean, the UK ambassador recently

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gave a presentation in Pristina, in

which he said "There was no need for

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me to explain just how bad

corruption is in Kosovo. You all

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know this phenomenon roots

democracy, prevents any economic

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development and undermines where so

many of your people gave sacrifice".

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In the latest ranking of countries,

we have improved by ten positions.

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Kosovo has improved in the fight

against corruption.

That is from

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appalling took what Mike Riddle not

-- that is from appalling to not

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quite so appalling.

I am six months

in the job. My commitment is only to

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make a difference and difference is

happening now. Kosovo has a rule of

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law that fights corruption and

fights crime, and fights against

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other threats that the world is

today facing.

Another way in which

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Europe looks at Kosovo and has

concerns is on security issues.

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Kosovo is a very interesting

European nation because you are 90%,

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or more, Muslim. He had very

explicitly said in the past that

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there has been a problem with

radicalisation of some people in

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Kosovo, some of them, hundreds of

them, went to fight with so-called

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Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.

Your security agencies have said

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that you are concerned that some

have returned to your territory. How

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can you reassure Europe that your

government is on top of this

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potentially very grave security

problem? Not just for yourselves,

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but for Europe?

Kosovo is multi-year

-- multiethnic. A majority

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Albanians. We have had questions

since Ottoman times. We adopted the

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Muslim religion -- Chris Jones. We

are very much linked to our own

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national identity as being Albanian.

It is an identity that we represent

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ourselves with that.

Let me ask you

bluntly, you see the nature of the

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rise of populism and nationalism in

many different parts of the European

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Union. Do you believe there is a

prejudice or a bias against Kosovo,

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because it is predominantly Muslim?

No, no. I think in Europe, they

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realise who we are. We are

Albanians, we are the nation of

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Mother Teresa, of Dua Lipa, no.

This

was said by the EU special

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representative in Pristina. She said

there is just the other day of

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Kosovo. She said there is a window

of opportunity here, if the

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political establishment really takes

to heart the European reform agenda.

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But it is not a very big window. Do

you think your country is capable of

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seizing this moment, this

opportunity?

I think we are to be

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applauded as a nation. To see the

war 20 years ago and where we are

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today, it proved that we do find a

way, even though it is very

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difficult. Our challenges are

specific but we find a way to become

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a member of the EU family, and the

United Nations.

You don't ever doubt

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that, even after ten difficult

years, no doubts?

No. Kosovo will be

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a member of the EU and Nato, and the

United Nations.

We have two end

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there, but Ramush Haradinaj, thank

you very much for being on Hardtalk.

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Thank you.

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