Ramush Haradinaj - Prime Minister of Kosovo HARDtalk

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Time for HardTalk.

Welcome to Hardtalk, I am Stephen

Sackur. It is ten years since Kosovo

became Europe's newest nation. It

has not been an easy decade.

Relations with neighbouring Serbia

remain hostile, and international

recognition has been patchy. Kosovo

is still struggling to get on top of

endemic poverty and corruption. My

guest today is Kosovo's Prime

Minister Ramush Haradinaj. Can

Kosovo escape its troubled history?

Ramush Haradinaj, welcome to

Hardtalk.

Thank you.

You have had

ten years of Kosovan independence.

To the outsider it looks like a

story of hopes dashed and ambitions

thwarted. Is that what it feels like

to you?

The foundation of a state,

it is there. It is ten years, if not

anything else, it has been learning

to be ourselves. Facing and making

mistakes, learning from our

mistakes. And Kosovo exists in

strong foundation.

Do you really

think so?

Yes.

When one looks at

Kosovo today, one sees that despite

claims to independence, a

significant nation, with Russia and

China, but five Nations within the

EU do not even recognise your

sovereign independence.

This is not

the end of the project today, where

we are. Infrastructure, economy, it

exists. Institutions of the state

exist. Today, we are members of

different international

organisations, and have been

recognised by a number of

organisations. We are in the

direction to be a member of UN and

the EU. We do not stop here.

What

you want to tell me is the direction

of travel is positive that if one

looks at recent developments, for

example, the European Parliamentary

reporter on Kosovo says that because

of actions your government has

taken, Kosovo is no "Off the train

of liberalisation of its

relationship with the European

Union". In other words, you are

going in the wrong direction?

We had

some challenges, there were

different topics of discussion but

finally we are structured again,

going in the right direction.

How do

you feel, then, when Jean-Claude

Juncker, the president of the

European Commission, says quite

openly that when it comes to the

Balkans, Serbia and Montenegro are

at the front of the queue for EU

membership. They would like to see

them inside the club by 2025 and he

gives no indication at all that

there is a target date for Kosovo.

Many people believe it is impossible

to imagine Kosovo inside the EU.

In

Russia, they do not even showing our

flag because they do not recognise

us.

But their problem is your

problem, that is my point.

Yes, and

I had congratulations from them on

our tenth anniversary of

independence. We exist, we are a

member of the family. We have to

find a solution to be recognised and

with Serbia.

That is something that

has to happen. You have led me to my

next question. The key to

normalisation of your statehood and

your future. That is, the

relationship with Serbia. How are

you going to move from the current

suspicion and mistrust, the

hostility, to a normalised

relationship with your neighbour?

We

have two strong arguments. One is

our constitution is an advanced one.

We had a very advanced Constitution.

The second is the position of Kosovo

Serbs in the country. A community

that is respected and granted the

most row is possible that a

constitution could grant their

community. Based on that, we have

cohesion -- the most rights.

It is

one thing having constitutional

rights for the Serbian minority

written in the constitution but

another is safeguarding their

security. We did see a few weeks ago

a member of the Kosovo community

gunned down on the streets of

Mitchell Beazer.

That is very tragic

news. The Deputy Prime Minister is a

Serb, and I have many colleagues I

work with from the north. But in

this case, nobody is pointing

fingers.

But let me quote to you

another significant Kosovo

politician who has said that the

government wants to integrate the

land but not integrate us, the

people, the Serbs.

This government

is doing, I would say, honest work

to respect Kosovo Serbs and

integrate the people, we work with

the people...

In that case, why did

you, the Prime Minister, blocks the

planned Association of Serb

municipalities. The plans for

Serbian communities, why did you

like that?

If you look at the other

cases, it did not function that

well. The cessation of

municipalities, it was presented. In

fact, our constitutional accord has

ruled on that. We are able to

implement the cessation based on our

Constitution.

Essentially, you need

a settlement of your hostile

relationship with Serbia and Serbia

needs at too, without it Serbia

cannot join the EU in 2025 and you

cannot get recognition and a place

at the European table. You both need

it. You prepared to cede territory,

a little portion of territory in the

north of your nation, seed it to

Serbia to settle this dispute?

You

are just throwing away everything in

the past. The pieces because of

people, not land or territories.

What is the answer to my question?

-- peace. Can you imagine giving

away territory to make final peace

with Serbia?

My answer is this, this

has led to war is in the Balkans.

I'm not in favour of another one. We

are a victim, as Kosovo Albanians.

The whole wall stood with what

happened at the time. In changing

borders and mixing territories, that

is how tragedies happen.

There is a

window of opportunity here. We have

a Prime Minister in Serbia. Yes, he

was a nationalist in the past that

he has become a man determined to

take Serbia towards a European

future. Too many people that means

he appears more broody for

compromise than Serbian leaders of

the past. He has talked about

wanting to respect the needs of

Serbia's children rather than

Serbia's ancestors. He, for you, is

a window of opportunity. You

prepared to reach out to him?

We are

interested to sit at the table, and

to finish what is left between

Kosovo and Serbia. That is the

recognition. They are part of the

forgiveness. Not to forget but

forgiveness. I believe it is the

time to do so. We are prepared for

that but this is not a trade of

territories.

This is not... You are

categorical about that. Some people

talk about a land swap that you

could give territory to the Serbs

and they can give territory to you

which is majority Kosovo Albanians.

The borders in the Balkans, and

today the territories are a result

of some wars from the past. If we

open that question it is a

never-ending story. We still have

rules, after the last tragedies. We

don't want to forget that.

You talk

about wounds and tragedies. Another

element of Kosovo moving forward is

your nation truly accounting for the

recent past. This raises the issue

of justice. For crimes committed

during the period of war in the late

90s. You appeared to support a

special legal chamber created in

2015 by the Kosovan parliament, to

investigate historical crimes. Then,

you appear to change your mind. You

told the press in January that you

were not for the court, in

opposition, and against it now. Be

clear with me, are you for or

against the court?

Kosovo was open

and transparent, for the past and

for the truth. And for the right of

victims and the rights of people and

all allegations. The United Nations

administrated Kosovo for nine years

and established courts, prosecutors

and prosecuted many Kosovo

Albanians.

But people watching and

listening may not know that this

special chamber, the Kosovan

Parliament approved of it, would sit

in The Hague but follow Kosovan law

and would consider specific crimes

committed in the past. Are you for

or against the court?

People in the

world deserve to know, to realise,

that this is the fourth operation to

bring justice to Kosovo. The first

was the United Nations, the second

was former Yugoslavia...

You have

two trials.

In the name of justice

on behalf of my nation.

That was run

by the International criminal Court

at The Hague.

The third is the

European rule of law...

You are not

answering my question...

On the

fourth one, it was judged only

Albanians, only for selected crimes,

and it was out of the country.

I

would prefer that. But it was

ratified by the Kosovan Parliament?

Fair enough.

Now you are denying...

No, not deniable. The court exists.

But it is good to realise when this

quarter rights, and the criticism of

this court, there is criticism of

this court.

More to the point there

is criticism of this court from your

own brother. Like you he was a KLA

fighter and recently he has said

that KLA fighters will prevent

action by anyone who intends to

profit politically from making

arrests in this special court. It

sounds like you and your family are

doing whatever it takes to block

these activities.

Not true at all.

We respect the rule of law. I did it

in my time, my brother did it. We

went to trial and court...

He is not

prepared to go through this one.

Why

profit politically, if you are

talking about justice or political

profit? There is something in these

answers.

It has become a big issue,

inside and outside of the country. I

will quote you the head of the

Kosovo Democratic Institute. He says

the government shows immaturity and

signs of panic and is risking

isolation from the international

community who helped us declare

independence in the first place.

Umm, that is exaggerated! This is

not the case of the government of

Kosovo. It is a sustainable

government. A very serious one. But

it reflects the feelings and beliefs

of the nation. It is not always the

international community. Everything

they did, they did it right.

The

Americans and Europeans are people

who helped deliver Kosovan

independence and... Sorry, to

continue, they say they condemn what

they see as backtracking on the

special chamber court and they say

there will be "Severe consequences

for Kosovo's International and

Yerevan antic integration if the

government continues on this course.

Can I put it more clearly? MPs of

our Parliament have criticised and

have different views to this court.

As a government, we respect

obligations that have been taken but

we have a respect for that criticism

as well. It is a well founded

criticism. In the 21st-century, it

is a mono ethnic court.

And not

entirely clear with what you are

saying. You prepared to accept the

authority of this court and accept

its judgments?

We always have been.

The Kosovo government and

institution always has been. After

any result, we stay under

obligations that we have taken but

we take obligation of the court. We

have one system operating out of the

country, it is the fourth operation

to bring justice. The second is mono

ethnic.

And what about the specific

allegations but towards the Council

of Europe, which may well end up

before the special chamber. The KLA,

you were a senior commander of it in

Kosovo during the war, the KLA were

involved not just in murders,

torture, rape victims, but also in

organised in people smuggling and

drugrunning -- rape of victims.

Should those allegations be aired in

this special court?

Many people

would find the verdict in my case.

You would see what an honourable

Judge says in the end of a second

trial, they proved that the KLA were

not doing that. They did not find

that we have been doing that. I

believe the allegations are false.

Let's talk about the different ways

on how the international community

are concerned about backtracking

from your government. It concerns

the separate border dispute that you

have with Montenegrin. It looked as

though you, the Kosovan government

in 2015, were prepared to reach a

deal with Montenegrin --

Montenegrin. I believe that involved

sending back several thousand

hectares back to the Montenegro

government. You said that the border

agreement was not transparent to our

Parliament. Does that mean you no

longer accept the agreement?

We have

reached consensus with the

Montenegrin government, they have

agreed to review and correct in two

directions where the dispute was. It

gives enough arguments to vote it in

our Parliament. In the next few days

hopefully we will be coming together

to rectify it.

Until you ratify, the

European Union has said it will not

consider these liberalisation is for

Kosovans who want to travel inside

of the EU. There is linkage, once

again the Europeans are judging the

Kosovan government of failing to

live up to international standards

and unless you do so, your

relationship with the EU will

clearly suffer. It is very strange,

the fact that that would happen,

Visa liberalisation. We are members

of Nato and still have disputes on

their own borders -- they are

members of Nato. It is very unfair.

But cat Brussels attitude to

Brussels -- but if you look at

brussels attitude to Kosovo today,

you are the poorest country in

Europe. According to the CIA fact

book, they release one every year

looking at the basics of every

economy, they reckon that your youth

unemployment is close to 60%. Your

average income is a tiny fraction of

the EU average. Your economy is so

far behind, it is, again, very hard

to see how you could ever get close

to acceptable convergence.

OK... In

Europe, you are becoming older and

older. You are the youngest nation

in Europe, as population. And many

people had to leave the country

because there are no jobs?

In the

case of producing an offer in your

countries, in Kosovo, they have

potential. In energy, in the mining

sector, in food production and in

innovation. Young and talented

people. They are like that because

we inherited no economy at all. The

war devastated Kosovo. No

infrastructure at all. Today, we are

nearly finishing the highways of our

country, railways need to be

constructive. Water and electricity

supply to families, not just for

houses and businesses but for the

whole country. We have an investment

in energy of 1,000,000,000.3. -- 1.3

billion. Kosovo is struggling but

here we are.

Yes, and with an

economy that is far behind the

European standard, we can agree. But

also an economy that has laid low by

corruption. Corruption is killing

economic growth in your country. I

mean, the UK ambassador recently

gave a presentation in Pristina, in

which he said "There was no need for

me to explain just how bad

corruption is in Kosovo. You all

know this phenomenon roots

democracy, prevents any economic

development and undermines where so

many of your people gave sacrifice".

In the latest ranking of countries,

we have improved by ten positions.

Kosovo has improved in the fight

against corruption.

That is from

appalling took what Mike Riddle not

-- that is from appalling to not

quite so appalling.

I am six months

in the job. My commitment is only to

make a difference and difference is

happening now. Kosovo has a rule of

law that fights corruption and

fights crime, and fights against

other threats that the world is

today facing.

Another way in which

Europe looks at Kosovo and has

concerns is on security issues.

Kosovo is a very interesting

European nation because you are 90%,

or more, Muslim. He had very

explicitly said in the past that

there has been a problem with

radicalisation of some people in

Kosovo, some of them, hundreds of

them, went to fight with so-called

Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.

Your security agencies have said

that you are concerned that some

have returned to your territory. How

can you reassure Europe that your

government is on top of this

potentially very grave security

problem? Not just for yourselves,

but for Europe?

Kosovo is multi-year

-- multiethnic. A majority

Albanians. We have had questions

since Ottoman times. We adopted the

Muslim religion -- Chris Jones. We

are very much linked to our own

national identity as being Albanian.

It is an identity that we represent

ourselves with that.

Let me ask you

bluntly, you see the nature of the

rise of populism and nationalism in

many different parts of the European

Union. Do you believe there is a

prejudice or a bias against Kosovo,

because it is predominantly Muslim?

No, no. I think in Europe, they

realise who we are. We are

Albanians, we are the nation of

Mother Teresa, of Dua Lipa, no.

This

was said by the EU special

representative in Pristina. She said

there is just the other day of

Kosovo. She said there is a window

of opportunity here, if the

political establishment really takes

to heart the European reform agenda.

But it is not a very big window. Do

you think your country is capable of

seizing this moment, this

opportunity?

I think we are to be

applauded as a nation. To see the

war 20 years ago and where we are

today, it proved that we do find a

way, even though it is very

difficult. Our challenges are

specific but we find a way to become

a member of the EU family, and the

United Nations.

You don't ever doubt

that, even after ten difficult

years, no doubts?

No. Kosovo will be

a member of the EU and Nato, and the

United Nations.

We have two end

there, but Ramush Haradinaj, thank

you very much for being on Hardtalk.

Thank you.