Patrisse Khan-Cullors, co-founder Black Lives Matter HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah

Montague. The woman who forced coin

the slogan Black Lives Matter and is

the American Patrisse Khan-Cullors.

She first used it as a hashtag on a

friend's Facebook post back in 2013.

Since then, Black Lives Matter has

taken off as a political movement

around the world. She has now

written about her own experience of

growing up in a poor black family in

California and how she is convinced

that it races and state violence

against African-Americans can be

stopped, then other problems in the

black community such as poverty,

poor education and crime will

disappear too. Is she right? And is

a movement founded on a hashtag have

any part to play in finding a

solution? Patrisse Khan-Cullors,

welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for

having me. When you typed hashtag

Black Lives Matter to the bottom of

your friend's Facebook post, what

were you thinking?

I was thinking

that our generation wasn't going to

allow George Zimmerman to have the

end of the story in Treyvon Martin's

death.

George Zimmerman was the man

convicted of the death of Treyvon

Martin.

-- acquitted. The moment he

was acquitted, I was full of despair

but rather quickly understood there

had to be a new conversation about

and antiblack racism in this country

in the world.

But things must have

irritated you and others. What made

it about that moment that made you

feel that and made it travel as it

did?

I think it was witnessing

George Zimmerman and the trial

against in actually be a trial

against Treyvon Martin. It was

spending an entire year waiting for

a justice system that has

historically been terrible to black

communities give this white passing

person are passed to go home after

murdering a child. I think it was

spending time in my life seen over

policing in my neighbourhood, over

incarceration in my neighbourhood

and it came to a head when George

Zimmerman was acquitted.

This was an

unarmed black man, a youngster, a

teenager.

Yes.

You've written about

it in your book, When They Call You

a Terrorist, and talking about your

experiences, when you talked about

incarceration of those around you,

your own father, your brother sent

to prison but the things they had

done wrong.

Sometimes. And sometimes

it was because they were hurting. My

father was a drug addict. He was on

and off of crack cocaine. In the US,

we have the war on drugs and so for

my father, what he needed was care.

He needed dignity and instead he was

given a jail cell, he was given

policing. My brother, whose only

crime has been mental illness, he

has schizoaffective disorder, these

should not be crimes, they should be

illnesses as they are.

But those

cases, neither of those peculiar to

race, are they? Those cross all

races in the United States.

Of

course. Drug addiction and mental

illness is an issue that everybody

faces. It's a universal issue. What

is not universal is the

criminalisation of black people in

particular and I think important.

What we see with my brother, for

instance, a big black man, in his

early years, intervention shouldn't

have been juvenile hall. The

intervention should have been mental

health treatment and that is

different and mostly white

communities and I have spoken to

folks who read the book who said, I

relate so much to your brother's

mental illness but I did not have to

experienced what he experienced

because I am white you, you talk

about large family, and you grew up,

your mother was working a lot of the

time, you were brought up by an

older brother.

Yes, yes. And you

saw, you talk about when you are 12,

I think, one of your earliest

experiences.

With the police, I was

arrested and detained at my school.

I had been smoking weed in the girls

bathroom. Anthony incident with the

police didn't happen that day, it

happened a couple of days later in

which a police officer came into my

classroom and whispered into my

teacher's year and the next thing, I

am being summoned to the front of

the classroom, handcuffed in front

of my classmates and walked down the

hallway where I was stopped and

frisked and they told me to call my

mother and let her know why I had

been arrested in school.

And you

were taken to...

The principal's

office.

So aged 12, the police were

called. Because people will listen

and think, your father did drugs, he

was on crack. You were smoking weed

when you are 12. Why, what is wrong

in a way with trying to police that?

I think what we've noticed over the

last 15, 20 years is the war on

drugs and didn't actually stop drug

use. It didn't stop drug selling. In

fact, the war on drugs was just an

excuse to criminalise some of the

most marginalised communities. I

think was also important, and I talk

about it in my book, is that I went

to a middle school with mostly white

kids and in my experience, had this

particular experience when I went to

my friend's house, and she

introduces me to her brother who,

you know, just young white kid, and

she opens up his door, and his

countertop is full of drugs,

literally. Every drug. I had never

seen that many drugs in my life. And

I kind of looked over at her and she

didn't really bat an eye but it was

in that moment that understood, oh,

both of our communities are not just

using drugs but selling them except

my community has been criminalise

for it and he was not afraid at all

about the police being in his

neighbourhood. In fact, I never saw

the police in his neighbourhood.

And

your brother, your brother Monty's

experiences in prison, and we should

set this in the context of the

prison population. 14% of the United

States are black but the prison

population, 38% are black. You are

five times more likely to be

incarcerated if you are black. And

the experience, and you didn't

particularly know, what your brother

was going through, it was many years

later you discovered.

Yes, I knew he

had been abused by the police but I

wouldn't know the extent of the

abuse or the fact that he was

tortured until probably a decade

later.

And how did you find out?

I

came across an ACLU 86- page

complaint, the American Civil

Liberties Union, and I'd just happen

to sit in my email inbox, I have it

up and saw they were suing the

Sheriff 's Department and the piqued

my interest, a terrible incident

with the Los Angeles sheriff, so I

read the 86- page complaint within

the power and it was story up on

story, 70 sworn statements from

prisoners but also to boost

testimonies were from a jail

chaplain -- also to of those

testimonies were from a jail

chaplain who had first-hand

experience of witnessing the police

brutality inside a jail. And the

second one was someone who worked

for the ACLU who witnessed a

prisoner being beaten by the

Sheriff's Department and it was

almost that moment when I read it

that I heard my brother's story and

I called him, he had just been

released from State prison, and said

the sheriff is being sued and he

said finally, someone will get

justice. And asked him, what

happened to you? Is this some of the

things that happen to you? You said

yes. It would be over six months to

a year that he would tell us the

extent of what he experienced inside

a jail cell. Which was what?

Brutally beaten by the sheriffs. He

was in the middle of a manic

episode. He was punched, kicked, he

said he remembers a sheriff eating a

panic button and dozens of sheriffs

coming out and stomping him until he

blacked out and when you finally

awoke, he was in a pool of his own

blood. They never took into the

infirmary, to get medical care and

they also had handcuffed him to his

bedpost. And for about the next two

months, they starved him, they

turned off water in his cell, he was

forced to drink from toilet water

and my mother had no idea where he

was. She called up every single day

trying to find her son. She went

there every single weekend trying to

visit her son and for about two

months, the sheriff kept him from

us.

It prompted you then to take

action. In fact, you did it through

artwork. You are in your late 20s?

I

was about 27 when I first delved

into taking on the sheriff's

department. I did an intimate art

piece betraying state violence and

it was a way to process what I had

read and what my family had

experienced but it was also a way to

amplify the issue. I wanted to bring

this conversation to LA County but

one of my friends came and saw the

performance and said, this isn't

enough. This is a great piece but

you've got to do more. This is

happening right now. And I did. I

would start the first organisation

that centred people most directly

impacted by jail violence.

And that

was an essential first campaign

because it resulted in civilian

oversight. Exactly. But that

happened after Black Lives Matter.

There are many more black men in

prison then you would expect from

the prison population. 14% of black

men in the United States, 38% in the

prison population. Why do you think

that is?

It's because we spent the

last 40 years creating laws that

criminalise poverty. That

criminalise some of the most

marginalised people. And so what

happens is, you have someone who is

going to school, going to high

school and instead of having

counsellors, they have police

officers on the campus so what might

be something that got you sent to

the principles of this 30 years ago

is now something that will get you a

misdemeanour or a felony. What we

have is a community of people who

are struggling to raise their

children, feed their children, give

their children shelter and so might

try to steal food and instead of

dealing with the issue of poverty,

we have people criminalising

poverty.

But poverty affects whites

just as much as blacks.

Yes, and

racism becomes the key factor. Race

and the history of race inside the

US becomes very important for us to

delve into.

But where it is at play?

Are you saying that more black

people are poor because of racism?

Yes, and also say in more black

people I could analyse because of

racism.

But there are some

interesting statistics highlighted

by the African-American S East Debra

Dickerson saying the race of

criminals reported by crime victims

matches the arrest data which

suggests the police are not over

arresting black people more than

white people.

I think that's an

interesting statistic. What we have

to look at is, we the police and up,

which communities? I mentioned

earlier, I am in a community where

over policing is happening. We have

police from morning until sundown.

And families and communities are

being criminalised by police but

then you go to Sherman Oaks which is

a neighbourhood over, the same

things could be happening and yet

those communities aren't

criminalised.

Is a powerful statistic that when

someone is reporting a crime, they

say they are black, they say they

are white. The ratio is the same as

the rates -- arrests. When it comes

to actual arrests made, if that

matches those who are reporting

crime...

The question then becomes

about conviction. Did the people who

get arrested, who ends up getting

convicted? That is where that

statistic lacks. Who is convicted of

the crimes they say they committed

and what we note time and time again

is that black folks are over

convicted even of crimes they might

have never done. Crimes they may

have done but instead of getting a

misdemeanour, and in or getting to

go home, they are convicted.

OK. So,

the suggestion is that in a way, it

is all through the system even if

you can't prove it. So the criminal

justice system itself is racist.

Definitely. Definitely. And this is

something that we don't need

statistics for. I mean, statistics

are important that there is a

history of racism by the criminal

justice system. Let's think about

how many young black folks, how many

black folks who had mob violence,

easing cause to identify black

people and put them in jail or

prison, digging them inflated

sentences, giving them enhancements.

There is a history of this in the

US. -- giving them inflated centred

us.

There is a difficulty. It has

been highlighted by campaigns like

Black Lives Matter. One of the

consequences is you have policed who

are afraid to go into black

communities. 78% of police say they

are less willing to stop-and-search.

The difficulty of that is that it's

the black community, the law-abiding

members, who will suffer from that.

Young, and I think we have to look

at why harm and violence are

happening in communities in the

first place. -- yeah. When we

neglect looking at the root issues,

you get a country or a state or a

city that uses police at the mental

health providers. They use police as

social workers, they use police as

domestic violence workers and that

is not what they are. The police are

the police.

So the police are not

the solution to that problem.

Precisely.

What I wonder if your

relationship with the police. The

police are at war with us. If that

had you feel?

Of course was up I

felt that way as a child. The first

police experience I had was when

they raided my home as a

four-year-old. And they didn't look

at me my sister my siblings or ask

us how we were doing. They our home,

they brought in multiple police

officers, they scared my mother and

my family. And so there has never

been a moment in which black folks

have had a healthy relationship with

law enforcement.

OK, so how do you

get that? Presumably, that's the

game.

I think the aim is creating an

environment where people feel safe.

And safety isn't always a badge and

a gun. We have an idea of safety

that has largely been created by

policing but safety is people being

able to each... -- eat.

But

listening to you, you don't have

solution... Police have a role in

society. Sellar tried to get to

another point. When communities

don't have jobs, they don't have

access to healthy food, they don't

have access to public education,

harm happens and we need to talk

about that and we have spent too

much time talking about fixing the

police and not enough time talking

about how do we ensure black

employment rates go up. How do we

ensure black folks are able to stay

in their homes and fight

gentrification. These are the

conversation that need to be

happening. -- conversations. I hear

someone in the black community sang,

hang on a second, I was mugged and

we need someone to deal with that.

I'm not saying don't. I'm saying we

only talk about the police will stop

that becomes the focus.

Do you

recognise that you need, in a way,

are you at war with the police?

Definitely not. Definitely not. In

fact, if you grew up in a black

neighbourhood, you try to avoid

police. What you are often told is

the police are behind us, don't look

back, you don't want to cause any

attention. You don't want it to seem

like you are doing anything wrong.

We are attracting attention from the

police. Also, you know, I come from

the tradition of abolition. I want

to be honest. Eventually, I don't

want to seek the police being the

ways in which our community deals

with harm and violence. I think we

need to think outside the box. This

becomes our moment where it is about

philosophy and we have to talk about

how that philosophy meshes with

practice.

In a way, here you are

representing Black Lives Matter

which you found it and the answers,

the policies put forward on policing

are the same whether it's in the

black community or the white

community, it's not like the black

community wants something different

from the approach to drugs, for

example.

Do know about that I don't

think we have heard enough from

black folks to give a concrete

cancer. What we do know is that

people want to make sure that in

their life, they don't want to have

to train their child to keep

themselves safe from the police. --A

concrete answer. When my mother sits

me down and says, when you come

across in the police, be careful,

you might get killed. That doesn't

happen in white communities.

What do

you feel like when you come across a

policeman now?

Scared. Still scared.

I have a somatic response to

law-enforcement. I am respectful, I

sometimes have officers who do

security for me at events so I am

grateful. And for me, it's not about

individual law enforcement, it's

about the system of policing and

that, to me, isn't so important. I

have policed better in my family.

But it is the system of law

enforcement that we have to look at.

You are talking about really

changing the whole of society.

I am.

And you think that Black Lives

Matter have a role in that. Sellar

think we have, yes. Some people say,

look, for a while it was temporarily

a fashion on social media. What

makes it last? It is just a

movement, isn't it? And yes, it's

taken off but it's also been

eclipsed by the latest social media

movements like me too and time is up

Mac. -- Time's Up. What makes it

last?

Most of us are invested in

building it further than what it was

on social media. We have 40 chapters

across the world, across the US and

Canada and here in the United

Kingdom.

With what aim? Militant

action?

Sometimes, sometimes as

direct action, sometimes of civil

desert that -- is disobedience, it

is similar to what Act Up did around

giving folks medicine when they were

dying of AIDS. We are having a

conversation because black people

are dying at the hands of the state

and oftentimes, nobody is caring.

Indirect and direct action...

So

it's about protesting, what,

locally?

That is our aim and mission

but also, when they come to the

United Kingdom or Canada, it is also

to build relationships with folks

that are using Black Lives Matter,

that a part of our network.

But you

are a protest movement, you are not

going to endorse or promote

candidates?

We might. We are looking

at what it might look like to run

for office. We are in an exploratory

phase.

Under a Black Lives Matter

and?

Yes.

You are seeing this very

confidently. Would you?

I have been

approached to run for office. Some

folks are talking about state, some

local, just approached, I haven't

said yes but it is a conversation

and we have seen this in bed

trajectory of many protest

movements. -- into trajectory. That

is something that we... We have

never been against it but that is

not something that we thought of as

the first place to go to.

Is that

the aim to have three black senators

in the Senate?

It is to grow a

movement that can change the

material conditions the black

people.

But I wonder if that is the

way to do it? To go right to the top

of the political tree. Sometimes

it's both. What I don't want to say

is we need to abandon protest. What

some of the best movements are able

to continue to protest and continue

to fight and Hrovat movement while

they have someone in office and who

are elected officials. When They

Call You a -- Patrisse Khan-Cullors,

thank you for coming on HARDtalk.