Bruno Tshibala - prime minister, Democratic Republic of Congo HARDtalk

the Iran nuclear deal.

Now on BBC News - HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen

Sackur. The Democratic Republic of

Congo boasts assets that should make

it the envy of all Africa. Plentiful

land, resources, and the youthful

population. But the PRC has never

come close to fulfilling its

potential. Thanks to political

division, intercommunal violence,

and epic levels of corruption. My

guess today is the DRC's Prime

Minister, Bruno Tshibala. Can he is

country finally find a pathway to

prosperity?

Prime Minister Bruno Tshibala,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Mr

Prime Minister, would you agree that

no African country has been more

letdown by its political leaders

over the last 40 years then it your

own country, the Democratic Republic

of Congo?

But isn't it your own leader, the

president of the country today,

Joseph Kabila, who has generated a

huge amount of instability in your

country by refusing to leave office

when he was supposed to leave

office. His term in office should

have finished in December 20 16. It

is still not clear, even today, if

he is prepared to leave the

presidency.

Prime Minister, that deal is not

really worth the paper it is written

on. In several important ways,

President Kabila has already broken

the transition deal that was signed

in December 2016. That deal made it

clear that the Prime Minister should

be nominated by the opposition, but

you were the Prime Minister and you

were not nominated by the

opposition, you were nominated by

President Kabila himself.

Exactly. The president pointed your

Prime Minister. The opposition did

not choose you, the President chose

you. In fact, the leader of your own

opposition party, when you decided

to cross the lines and joined the

government as Prime Minister, your

own leader of the macro six party,

which was your party, said he needs

the money. And by appointing Bruno

Tshibala, President Kabila has

violated the terms of the transition

agreement.

You make it sound so smooth, Mr

Prime Minister, but in fact what you

did was seen by the opposition in

the DRC as a betrayal. You are a

former opposition man, you are now

at the head of a government which is

shooting political protest is. How

do you feel about that?

Why have your troops been firing

tear gas into churches? Why have

dozens of people being killed? And

why is the spokesman of the

President now describing the

Catholic Church as a Trojan horse of

ambitious politicians who are hiding

inside churches? What is going on

here?

How many political prisoners are

there in B DRC today, Prime

Minister? Just give me a number.

Two cases. How is it the Secretary

General of the UN stabilisation

Mission in your country, on the

fifth of January, expressed deep

concern that at least 107 political

prisoners are currently in

detention. Hang on. Are you accusing

the chief of the UN stabilisation

Mission of lining? -- lying?

Well, that sounds like a very subtle

distinction to me. The same

stabilisation Mission said this in

January, that is just two short

months ago. Journalist, political

opponents, and civil society

activists are the systematic targets

of violations by Agence of the State

and 98%, 98% of the perpetrators of

these abuses, estate agents, are

enjoying impunity, they never being

prosecuted. -- state agents.

You seem to have a very subtle view

of what represents an opposition

activist. But I put this to you, I

wonder how your own conscience fails

when, in October 2017, dozens of

opposition members, from your own

political party, were arrested. And

you are now the Prime Minister

overseeing a security force that is

arresting members of your own party.

How did you feel about that?

So your former party colleagues,

your former party colleagues have

now become revolutionaries, have

they? They are fermenting an

uprising. What strikes me is that

your first duty as Prime Minister is

to ensure the peace and stability of

your nation, but you seem, with

respect, in the past EU have been in

your job, to have completely failed.

The International Crisis Group says

that right now in DRC at least ten

provinces are in the grip of armed

conflict, generating one of the

world's worst humanitarian crises.

So there is no stability in your

country today.

But, Mr Prime Minister, you seem

very confident the elections will

take place at the end of this year.

You know that right now in the west

of your country and in the east of

your country there are the most

terrible, terrible violent conflict

is taking place. We are seeing

civilians, including women and

children, being murdered. And there

are very serious allegations from

independent human rights groups,

backed by the United Nations, that

the DRC armed forces are involved in

some of those egregious abuses. Are

you aware of that? And do you

believe that is true?

Take care.

this militia you are talking

about... But are just want to be

clear with our audience who do not

know, this militia you are talking

about who has beheaded people, has

killed pregnant women and their

unborn foetuses, this militia is

accused of being in alliance with

elements of your own armed forces.

But, Prime Minister, Prime Minister

is I... The thing is, Prime

Minister, there is a very serious

allegation at the heart of this

humanitarian crisis in your country

and I put it to you in the words of

the National Federation for human

rights. They said recently, "The

atrocities being committed in DRC

are part of a scheme of President

Joseph Kabila's regime to mobilise

tension and violence in order to

retain power"

tension and violence in order to

retain power". That is a very

shocking allegation.

You make it sound as though all of

these humanitarian and security

problems are in the past at the

figures suggest they're not. In the

last year, nearly 2 million of your

citizens have been forced to flee

from their homes because of

violence. That's the figure from

Care International, one of the NGOs

that works in your country. I put it

to you that when you tell me the

election will take place definitely,

for sure, in December 2018, it is

impossible to imagine how a

meaningful free, fair, safe election

can take place in this context. How

can it?

Perhaps the single thing that could

make the biggest difference to the

situation in your country today is

if President Kabila himself would

confirm publicly, once and for all,

that he is not going to run again,

he is not going to seek to change

the Constitution, he is not going to

seek a third term in office and then

perhaps the DIC could begin to look

to a new future. -- DRC. Will the

president say those words?

Do you trust, do you trust, do you

trust... Do you trust President

Kabila?

Because in the end, Mr Prime

Minister, you have an important job

but let's be honest, if the

President who calls the shots in

your country so if he wants to run

for a third term, you're not going

to be able to stop him. Not only

that, he also, he and his family,

control unimaginable amounts of

wealth in the DRC today. They sit at

the top of what many people believed

to be one of the most corrupt

systems of governance in the entire

world. 13 million of your people, 8

million children, currently need

humanitarian assistance and security

protection because of the crisis in

your country and at the very same

time, there is a small elite who are

making vast amounts of money from

the mines, from the foreign

companies, from the revenues that

come from the mining industry and

most of that money, according to the

global witness group, is not go into

the DRC Treasury, to be spent on

healthcare and education. Now, you,

as Prime Minister, have not tackled

that corruption, have you?

If I may, I'm sorry to interrupt.

Global Witness had done a lot of

work on the mining revenues that

come from all of the different mines

you have, the foreign companies that

pay revenues to the DRC government,

according to Global Witness, several

100 and $50 million worth of those

revenues never reached the treasury

of your government. -- $750 million

worth. They don't know where that

money went, do you know?

My last question, Prime Minister. I

began by suggesting that for many

decades the politicians, the leaders

of DRC have failed the people of

your country. What promise or what

faith can you give to the people of

your country that the next five and

ten years ago to see better, more

honest leadership?

Prime Minister, thank you very much

for being on HARDtalk.