07/01/2016 House of Commons


07/01/2016

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Good morning and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the

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Commons. The Lords are in recess but the MPs are here and in an hour's

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time, Leader of the Commons Chris Grayling, will set out the timetable

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for what will becoming up in Parliament in the next couple of

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weeks and take questions from MPs. Two debates after that chosen by

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backbenchers, the first on the effect on women of the equalisation

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of the state pension age. The second is on children in care. The date

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ends with a debate on primary school admission criteria. Join me for a

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round-up of the day at Westminster at 11pm tonight. First, questions to

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the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Amber Rudd, and

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her ministerial team. First question today from, making, concerning the

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EU's renewable heat targets. Questions to the Secretary of State

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for Energy and Climate Change. Question number two, Mr Speaker. A

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reformed domestic supply obligation from 2017 which will run for five

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years will upgrade the energy efficiency of over 200,000 homes per

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year, tackling the root cause of fuel poverty. The extension to the

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warm homes discount in 2021, at current levels of ?300 million per

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annum, would also help vulnerable households with energy bills. We

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intend to focus the efforts through eco-and the warm home discount more

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effectively and we will be consulting on the future approach in

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the spring. I thank the Minister for her answer. Fuel poverty is a sign

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of inequality. New research by the National charity has found that one

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in two low-income households are struggling to afford energy costs

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despite being in work. Many households rely on in work social

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assistance. Can I ask the Secretary of State if she or her Cabinet

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colleagues have made an assessment of the effect of welfare reform on

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low-income households judged to be in fuel poverty? We do in fact, in

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my department, work closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to

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ensure the support we give goes to the most honourable. Energy costs

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are always at the centre of our minds in this government. -- most

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vulnerable. When Hastings, Motherwell and the rest of the

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United Kingdom votes to leave the European Union in the referendum, we

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hope to abolish the 5% VAT on domestic fuel bills, which will

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really help those suffering from fuel poverty. Is that something you

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would welcome? The honourable gentleman will be aware that this

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government is focused always on making sure that the bills are kept

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down for householders in all constituencies. I would tactfully

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suggest that the Chancellor might have something to say about reducing

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VAT income on such a service. Evidence has suggested that

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disproportionately raw raw communities are affected or

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adversely by fuel poverty. One way of combating this is with the

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development of domestic energy syndicates, collective purchasing,

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if you will. What proactively should be department can do and should be

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doing to support such initiatives? The honourable gentleman is right

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and we are ensuring there is a focus on oral areas which often have the

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largest problem with fuel poverty. My partner works closely with

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various community energy schemes to make sure we assist them and we will

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continue to do so. David" top cat" Davies. LAUGHTER

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Fine by me, Mr Speaker. Would the honourable lady agree with me that

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renewable energies are two to three times more expensive than fossil

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fuels, and therefore the more renewables we use, the more fuel

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poverty we will create. The question should be intelligible to people

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beyond it. The explanation is that the middle initials are TC. My

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apologies. I don't share that view, I think energy supplies should be a

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mix and that means a combination of fossil fuels and renewable energy,

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and investing in renewable energy is an essential part of energy security

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as well as reducing carbon emissions and meeting targets.

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With permission, I will answer this question, question 18 together. We

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are currently considering the indications of the Paris outcome

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domestically and with EU partners. The 2015 target of at least 80%

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reduction from the 1990 baseline is already in statute and we are set on

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meeting it. We look forward to meeting the carbon targets later

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this year. The floods over the last few weeks are a reminder of the

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effects of climate change. As we have known for a while, these

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extreme weather events are here to stay. Given the government claims

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for the UK ambition at the Paris climate change talks, why were they

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at the same time undermining policies? I don't accept we are

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undermining those policies. What we are trying to do is get the right

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balance to support policies, support renewable energy, but also look

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after the bill payer and make sure not too much is added to their

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bills. I would remind the honourable lady that the UK is responsible for

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1% of the world's emissions. The success of Paris is that we deal

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with nearly 100% of the world's emissions, and that is where we will

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see the real difference in change. I hope the Secretary of State will

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agree that delivering the Paris climate agreement requires a cross

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departmental approach. If that is the case, can she explain why there

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appears to be no mention of climate change in the remit of the national

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infrastructure commission. Can she urged colleagues to remedy that, and

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can she say the rapid need for deep carbonisation will be a

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non-negotiable criteria for every single one of its projects. I thank

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the honourable lady for bringing up the national infrastructure

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commission. I had a preliminary meeting with the head of it, and we

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will shortly consult on which projects to prioritise. I can say

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the projects they have already said they will look at in our sector,

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which is interconnected as, systems operations, will be important for

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delivering on the less carbon future, and it will play an

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important role in getting cross-party consensus on getting the

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investment we need going forward. The secretary of state will be aware

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that the legally binding UK commitment is about 30 or 40% faster

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than that signed up by the EU in Paris. Some countries like Austria

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have increased emissions by about 20% since 1990. What discussions

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that she planned to have with her colleagues in Europe regarding

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getting their process up to the same level as the UK? You raise an

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interesting point. The fact is that the UK is leading in this area. Not

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only in terms of the commitment to the Climate Change Act, but also the

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structure of the commitment of fewer carbon emissions. The transparency

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of the regime and the five-year review. I will talk to colleagues in

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Europe to make sure they also step up and participate in the important

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sharing decisions taking place this year. The Secretary of State's words

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are one thing, but credibility with the public is another. My

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constituents are worried about jobs and renewables and our real

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commitment as a country to the deal we made in Paris. Will the Secretary

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of State be absolutely clear, is she going to do any more to protect

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worked in the renewables sector that affects my constituents? I know the

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honourable lady will be concerned about offshore wind, so close to her

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constituency. I hope she will share with me and welcome that Dong energy

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wants to invest ?6 million by 2020, which will be important for offshore

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element. Having signed up to the Paris agreement and with the UK

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agreements on this basis, we will see more investment and her

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constituents will benefit as well. Can I ask the Secretary of State, if

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Paris happened one year ago, would you still make the same

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announcements you have made in the last six months, adversely affecting

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onshore wind and solar, impacting badly on jobs and investor

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confidence. I don't accept the honourable member's interpretation

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of the announcements I have made. Those announcements have set out a

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clear path in getting a balance between making sure we continue to

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support renewable energy and getting the investment we need and also

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looking after people's bills. Paris was a triumph, let's recognise the

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fact it starts to bring other countries up to the high standards

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that the UK has placed on it and we encourage further investment. The

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decision to pull ?1 billion. The Prime Minister said we have to make

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decisions about technology that works and technology not working.

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How was that assessment made given the competition had not yet been

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completed? We don't rule out carbon capture and storage in the future.

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This government made substantial investments through the entrepreneur

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fund through early starts. We have industrialised carbon capture and

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storage operating and testing in Teesside. The decision was made not

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to have a ?1 billion investment, and it was a difficult decision made in

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a difficult spending round, but we recognised carbon capture and

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storage will have an important future in a low-carbon economy. The

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Prime Minister said it wasn't working, but the Secretary of State

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says it will work. One of them is clearly wrong, Mr Speaker. In his

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list of technology that was working, the Prime Minister included

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small-scale nuclear reactors. Can I ask the Secretary of State where

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this technology is working, and whether it is working as the Prime

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Minister would claim, why does it require ?250 million of taxpayer

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money? I can bring together some of the questions by highlighting the

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investment we are making in innovation. Innovation is an area

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where is we think we can see great steps forward in renewable energy

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and technology that will help to develop important new technologies

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to renewable energy. For instance, at Paris different countries came

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together to double investment in this area and I believe carbon

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capture and storage and small modular reactors will benefit from

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that investment going forward. This has told us further away, now

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we are on falls short of it by some 10% or 187 million tonnes, it is

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also predicted we will miss out 2020 renewal target. Could she explained

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precisely what steps you will be taking in the remainder of this

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Parliament to make good on the Prime Minister's. The UK is leading the

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way in order to cut emissions? I don't accept his depressing

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interpretation of our progress towards our targets. Our green new

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Bulls targets are difficult to make, but I can point out we have exceeded

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the interim target. We know we need to make more progress to do so,

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which is why I working across departments to make sure actions

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taken on heat and transport. In terms of the fourth carbon budget,

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it was recognised in 2011 that there was a problem with it and it is

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about making sure now that we put in place policies necessary to meet it.

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But being no doubt, we remain committed to doing that. The

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honourable member will be aware that the cost of UK reaction to reduce

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emissions is already committed. The Paris agreement will help ensure

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that all countries acting, helping to make sure climate change

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effectively addressed. Greater opportunities for UK business in low

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carbon transformation. Thank you for the answer, but would she accept

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that the estimates suggesting the UK is on track predate the cuts to the

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budget under allergic date: meaning that meeting the 2 degrees target

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would require further support from the government, particularly for low

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carbon generation. I do accept that this government needs to put in

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place more policies in order to make sure we beat our carbon budgets,

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which we have just been referring to. I would also point out how it

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the Palace climate change agreement is not as ambitious as the ambition

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that we already have in place through the climate change act,

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which is legally binding and is delivered through our carbon

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budgets. She rightly says the Palace climate agreement is not as

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ambitious as the climate change bill we have. National action plans and

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Palace commit the world's 22.7 degrees of warming. Bush outlined

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what or conversation she has had with her counterparts in Europe

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before the next uptake in 2018? She raises a very important point, the

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current proposals only achieve a reduction of 2.7 degrees and we

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would be ambitious to make sure we reached not only to degrees but

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would like to see it go further. There will be conversations this

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year to make sure we meet their EU renewables targets. We have

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discussions ahead of us, but the triumph of the Paris agreement is

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that it is not just the UK, but the whole of the world, where the

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largest emitters like China and India, are also participating.

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Number seven. With permission, Alain answer this question with number 13.

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My honourable friends will be aware that the agreement reached in Paris

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in December was a historic step forward. Almost 200 countries

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committed to climate action, there will now be follow-up work in the UN

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to agree the detailed rules and prepare for the five-year reviews.

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Does she agree that the deal agreed in Paris actually sees the world is

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signing up for the approach adopted by the UK in tackling climate change

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is in marked and she confident her approach means we will meet the

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goals agreed in Paris? He's absolutely right. The UK can take

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pride in the structure that was put together in Paris, because it mimics

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in some way the climate change act we have put in place so many years

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ago. The five-year review, the transparency, we need to combat all

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the time with an improved offer, it's absolutely the right way to go

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and I'm confident we'll be able to deliver on that. I'm excited about

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talking further to my international partners to make sure we have the

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right system to deliver it. Does she agree that making sure all countries

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who have signed up to the agreement submit regular and full updates and

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that data on progress is crucial, so we can see which countries are

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actually sticking to the agreement? He raises a very important point.

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Transparency in these reviews is absolutely essential and it is

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something that the UK for very hard for during the Paris negotiations,

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to make sure that when other countries come back with their

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five-year reviews, they have actually made it clear, so we can be

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certain that carbon emissions are being reduced. New figures from this

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department show that renewables are the biggest source of carbon

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reduction. Will she sure her department's own commitment to this

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vital sector by now accepting the case for the inclusion of projects

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in the period of renewables obligation, which have attracted

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significant investment and achieved all the technical requirements to

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meet the cut-off date of June 2015, including the farm in my

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constituency. The renewable industry, offshore wind and onshore

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is wind are great success story. It is a great opportunity for export

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for business and am happy to say a number of ministers spoke to me

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about this in Paris and I think there will be great opportunities.

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As regards individual wind Farms, I must ask her to write me separately,

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so a look at those. But I remind her that on the side of the house we are

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committed to making sure we deliver on our carbon targets while keeping

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the bills down. Number eight. Firstly, I'm delighted to see him

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fully recovered and back in his place. We support AD and wind, with

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full support from the government. These technologies can make a

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valuable contribution to our decarbonisation targets and we will

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continue to support them. Thank you. I recently met with residents at my

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surgery to discuss AD and biogas. Does she agree with me that compared

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to wind solo, biogas has anything since delivering consistent and

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reliable amounts of energy into the network? I do absolutely agree,

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there are real benefits for the UK in having a wide range of renewable

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energy sources, but he's quite right to point out that as the sector

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develops in the UK, biogas technologies could bring additional

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benefits, Inc including injecting into the gas grid and transporting.

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In her letter to other departments on the 29th of October, the

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Secretary of State, who I congratulate on her letter of

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stressing the importance of reaching renewable targets to recover to

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departments, she indicated that the highest potential for additional

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renewable heat is from bio methane injection into the grid, but you'll

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is said we would face a shortfall against part of that target related

:20:47.:20:50.

to the heat sector, even if support for her agreed measures was agreed

:20:51.:21:01.

in the spending review. Now that she does have the reduced amount of

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money for the renewables up to 2020, does she consider that amount is

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going to enable us to reach our heat targets by 2020? And if not, what

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new proposals will she be bringing forward to make sure that this

:21:17.:21:20.

investment in the sector that can enable us to reach that target? He

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is right to point out that we had a good settlement in the comprehensive

:21:28.:21:32.

spending review. We were very pleased with the commitment in this

:21:33.:21:37.

pension review to enhancing increasing renewable heat

:21:38.:21:41.

insensitive, and we're making good progress towards that. He will

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realise the fourth carbon budget is for a 23 to 27 and he wouldn't

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expect us to meet it today. Putting plans in place and working towards

:21:52.:21:56.

that progress as we speak, and we'll be continuing to set out plans

:21:57.:22:01.

choosing this year. Despite more effective use of packaging, better

:22:02.:22:05.

date labelling and programmes by supermarkets to distribute unsold

:22:06.:22:09.

food, we still generate substantial quantities of food waste. Does she

:22:10.:22:13.

agree that using this resource to generate electricity is better than

:22:14.:22:18.

sending it to landfill? I completely agree with them, and recently, I

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went to see a proposed new project in my own county of

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Northamptonshire, which is looking to use landfill to create a

:22:26.:22:30.

renewable heat scheme. There are contrasting the ideas coming

:22:31.:22:33.

forward, and I admire officials was very keen to hear about them and

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support them where we can. Number nine, please. And I commend my

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honourable friend for the first not commitment he has shown to

:22:46.:22:47.

researching best practice in this area. The government is committed to

:22:48.:22:53.

protecting our most valuable spaces from server strolling of wells for

:22:54.:22:58.

fracking. On the 4th of November, we set out how we plan to do this and

:22:59.:23:05.

will issue a response to our industry consultation closed on

:23:06.:23:11.

December 16 as soon as possible. I very much welcome the minister's

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comments. The task force Rush Elgar first called for a single regulator

:23:16.:23:20.

and increased levels of individual monitoring. But the ministers agree

:23:21.:23:25.

this would improve public confidence and provide further protection,

:23:26.:23:27.

particularly for a more sensitive areas? The task force is 2015 report

:23:28.:23:35.

says that the regulatory regime is currently fit for purpose, but my

:23:36.:23:40.

honourable friend rightly points out their proposal that if a shield gas

:23:41.:23:44.

industry does develop, the government should consider creating

:23:45.:23:48.

a bespoke regulator and I can is your him we will keep the regulatory

:23:49.:23:52.

regime under review to make sure it remains fit for purpose. This second

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point about independent monitoring, I entirely agree with them and that

:23:58.:24:00.

is why we are already grant funding baseline monitoring in

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Northamptonshire and Lincolnshire. Does the Minister accept that is

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widespread opposition to fracking in all parts of Britain? Will she

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congratulate, as I have done, the residents in Bolsover for refusing

:24:19.:24:22.

to allow drilling operation and getting it stopped, not all made by

:24:23.:24:28.

the local authority, but by her own inspectorates? I think it's quite

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extraordinary at honourable members opposite continually talk about the

:24:38.:24:42.

potential for shale is as if it is some kind of disaster. The

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honourable gentleman himself comes amid very honourable and

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long-standing mining area. Mining has a legacy that we will be dealing

:24:53.:24:58.

with for many years to come. The shale industry offers the

:24:59.:25:03.

opportunity to really create a new home-grown energy source that is

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vital for our energy security into the next decade. When will the

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Secretary of State produce some legally enforceable protection

:25:19.:25:20.

against service level fracking in our national parks and areas of

:25:21.:25:28.

interest? Hopefully, she will have heard my initial comments, which is

:25:29.:25:35.

that we have been able to put forward a proposal to restrict

:25:36.:25:39.

surface gelling in any of our most protected areas, not limited to

:25:40.:25:42.

national parks, but including many other valuable spaces, through the

:25:43.:25:48.

licensing, and as things stand, we are waiting for our report and

:25:49.:25:51.

response of the industry consultation that closed on December

:25:52.:25:55.

16, and we will be announcements very soon. Question number ten. As

:25:56.:26:04.

more domestic community and business generators come on stream, the

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demand for a grid connection is increasing. Accommodating this is

:26:12.:26:16.

the responsibility of the network companies, overseen by Jen. Network

:26:17.:26:20.

companies publish long-term plans to see how a generation will be

:26:21.:26:27.

managed. She might want to look at the ten year statement as a good

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example of this. Let's face it, the National Grid is notorious for

:26:35.:26:38.

stifling new energy projects. Given that the tough bill involves

:26:39.:26:44.

devolving stations up to 350 megawatts, but not transmission, how

:26:45.:26:47.

will the Minister work with the Welsh government to make sure this

:26:48.:26:48.

isn't a empty promise. about 1.7 billion of this is for the

:26:49.:27:17.

distribution company that is responsible for North Wales that

:27:18.:27:19.

includes the Lady's own constituency. Does the Minister

:27:20.:27:25.

share my concern is that in the short to medium turn our energy

:27:26.:27:32.

security might be put at risk if capacity markets put in place to

:27:33.:27:35.

bring forward new gas capacity, not only fails to bring forward new gas

:27:36.:27:40.

capacity, but also works to make current gas capacity, such as

:27:41.:27:46.

provided by the power station in my constituency, to be no longer

:27:47.:27:49.

worthwhile doing, and that comes off stream. I can tell the honourable

:27:50.:27:56.

gentleman we have just completed the second capacity market auction,

:27:57.:28:01.

achieved a very competitive price for consumers, and as you will know,

:28:02.:28:04.

a top row or two for this covenant is to keep the bills down. At the

:28:05.:28:07.

same time we can ensure national Grid has the tools at its disposal

:28:08.:28:18.

to don't share his concerns. We want to bring a new gas, but there are

:28:19.:28:25.

not concerns about renewable energy. Number 11. Solar is an enormous UK

:28:26.:28:30.

success story and one this government continues to support. As

:28:31.:28:35.

my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, 98% of all

:28:36.:28:39.

solar deployment has taken place since 2010. We announce the feeder

:28:40.:28:51.

tariff scheme would remain open. We can potentially deliver 1.2

:28:52.:28:56.

gigawatts across 220,000 installations by 2019. I would like

:28:57.:29:01.

to thank my honourable friend for that answer. I have the opportunity

:29:02.:29:04.

recently of meeting a company in the solar sector industry in my

:29:05.:29:10.

constituency, and was very impressed with the technology innovation and

:29:11.:29:14.

job creation of that company. Would she give me an assurance that the

:29:15.:29:17.

government will do everything possible to continue supporting this

:29:18.:29:22.

important energy source. As my honourable friend will know, it's a

:29:23.:29:27.

key priority to keep consumer bills down, so it's always a balance

:29:28.:29:31.

between supporting what is a superb UK industry with making sure

:29:32.:29:35.

consumer bills remain affordable. We will continue to support the further

:29:36.:29:39.

growth of the sector, but not at any price. So the changes we have made

:29:40.:29:44.

another feeding tariff six to maintain a solar industry which in

:29:45.:29:47.

the medium term can continue to reduce cost and move towards a

:29:48.:29:52.

subsidy free deployment. Could the Minister update the house on what

:29:53.:29:58.

steps she is taking to make sure the rate of VAT on solar installations

:29:59.:30:02.

doesn't arise as potentially proposed from 5% to 20%, so

:30:03.:30:09.

affecting about ?9 on average solar installations. He's exactly right to

:30:10.:30:14.

raise this, an important point. He will know this is a result of

:30:15.:30:19.

proceedings by the European Commission who believe our VAT rates

:30:20.:30:22.

on solar installation should be higher than they are. It's something

:30:23.:30:28.

HMRC are looking at closely and consulting on, and taking into

:30:29.:30:31.

account what the outcome of that consultation is, we will look

:30:32.:30:34.

further at the regime we have in place. Bexhill and Battle

:30:35.:30:40.

constituency has a number of thriving solar businesses, some of

:30:41.:30:44.

which I have worked with over the recent changes for feed in tariffs.

:30:45.:30:47.

As the government looks for the industry to expand, can I ask how

:30:48.:30:54.

the Minister will support the delivery of energy storage solutions

:30:55.:30:57.

for existing and future solar systems. My honourable friend is

:30:58.:31:03.

exactly right to point out the huge potential for energy storage to

:31:04.:31:07.

enhance the value of solar installations. My department has

:31:08.:31:11.

provided more than ?18 million of innovation support since 2012 to

:31:12.:31:17.

support and demonstrate a range of technologies. We also investigating

:31:18.:31:21.

the potential barriers to the deployment of energy storage,

:31:22.:31:25.

focusing in the first instance of removing regulatory barriers and we

:31:26.:31:28.

plan to hold a call for evidence in the spring on specifically this

:31:29.:31:35.

area. Many constituencies fear the end of solar. What about the ?1

:31:36.:31:42.

rescue scheme, and what is the response to that? As I think my

:31:43.:31:49.

right honourable friend and I have made clear on many occasions, there

:31:50.:31:54.

is a fine balance. As a new technology, as the costs come down,

:31:55.:31:59.

as they have done so with this excellent UK solar industry, so we

:32:00.:32:03.

must focus on the needs of people in this country to be able to afford

:32:04.:32:08.

their energy bills. Fuel poverty is an enormous problem here. What we

:32:09.:32:13.

don't want to do is over subsidise, so it's a fine balance. We think our

:32:14.:32:18.

results in December to the consultation provide that fine

:32:19.:32:22.

balance, giving a 5% investment return to installations on solar.

:32:23.:32:25.

That's fair to consumers and the industry. EU minimum import prices

:32:26.:32:36.

on Chinese, Taiwanese and Malaysians sells inflate the cost of an average

:32:37.:32:42.

solar installation by ?385. The Minister is working to extract the

:32:43.:32:45.

UK from this, but will she update the house on her progress and set a

:32:46.:32:49.

date by which she hopes to end these price controls. I certainly agree

:32:50.:32:55.

with my honourable friend that this is an unwelcome drain on the UK

:32:56.:33:02.

solar industry. I also agree it would be fairer and simpler to

:33:03.:33:06.

remove it while the UK review is under review. It's one for the

:33:07.:33:14.

commission, not member states. The anti-dumping and anti-subsidy

:33:15.:33:17.

regulations require the commission to maintain existing trade defence

:33:18.:33:20.

measures while the expiry review takes place. It could be some months

:33:21.:33:29.

yet. Last year the solar trade Association estimated 27,000 workers

:33:30.:33:34.

would lose their jobs as a result of the government proposed 87% cut to

:33:35.:33:38.

the feed in tariff. Following public outcry, which included both sides of

:33:39.:33:43.

the house, her department reduced the cut to 64%, saving around 8000

:33:44.:33:47.

jobs. Something I'm sure the Minister would love to take credit

:33:48.:33:51.

for. However, can she say what the message is to the remaining 19,000

:33:52.:33:55.

solar workers who now face redundancy in the coming year as a

:33:56.:34:01.

result of the tariff cuts? What I can say to the honourable gentleman

:34:02.:34:05.

is that UK solar is a huge success story. It has grown rapidly since

:34:06.:34:13.

2010 with enormous support from energy consumers in the UK. As we

:34:14.:34:19.

have said time and again, there is a balance. We absolutely welcome the

:34:20.:34:23.

jobs and growth that has been provided in the sector, but what we

:34:24.:34:27.

can't do is to continue to support jobs just through bill payer

:34:28.:34:34.

subsidy, it's not fair. What our members can ensure is that there is

:34:35.:34:38.

good potential for the industry to continue to grow and jobs be

:34:39.:34:42.

supported whilst bills remain affordable. Number 12. The

:34:43.:34:50.

government is making it quicker and easier for consumers to switch

:34:51.:34:53.

supplier and moved to the best value tariffs. We have a national

:34:54.:34:57.

switching campaign, worked with the industry to cut the time it takes to

:34:58.:35:00.

switch to 17 days, and are working with Ofgem to move towards reliable

:35:01.:35:07.

next day switching. We also are working to wards and energy

:35:08.:35:12.

switching guarantee to be produced later this year. It's the vulnerable

:35:13.:35:18.

customers where this is particularly important, and they should be able

:35:19.:35:22.

to find the best value tariffs. Would she say more about what the

:35:23.:35:26.

government is doing to spread that message and ensure these consumers

:35:27.:35:28.

are getting the best deals available. Would she agree with me

:35:29.:35:35.

that perhaps organisations such as carers organisations and children's

:35:36.:35:39.

centres that support vulnerable younger families, that they could

:35:40.:35:44.

have a role to play. I do agree with my right honourable friend, it's

:35:45.:35:48.

absolutely essential that we improve access for vulnerable people to the

:35:49.:35:51.

switching that could provide such great benefits. If people can

:35:52.:35:56.

benefit from a ?200 saving on energy bill, it's no good unless they can

:35:57.:36:03.

access it. That's why we have launched the big energy saving

:36:04.:36:07.

network, and are ensuring vulnerable people who particularly need the

:36:08.:36:09.

improvement of the energy bills this can deliver can access it. One of

:36:10.:36:14.

the ways this is done to is through the citizens advice bureau. We will

:36:15.:36:16.

look at other suggestions put forward. It has been identified that

:36:17.:36:25.

the sticky customer base are not being served well by their energy

:36:26.:36:30.

suppliers. Something like 70% of those customers on the standard

:36:31.:36:33.

variable tariff are paying over the odds. As the secretary looked into

:36:34.:36:37.

the suggestion I have made in the last year and before that, that we

:36:38.:36:41.

need to protect those customers as well, with maybe a default or

:36:42.:36:47.

protection tariff to make sure suppliers provide tariffs that are

:36:48.:36:52.

fair to their customers. The Right Honourable Lady raises an important

:36:53.:36:56.

point, and it's helpful to have the suggestion about the competition and

:36:57.:37:00.

market authority who have just begun to include in their consideration

:37:01.:37:04.

the issue of vulnerable customers on prepayment meters. We are interested

:37:05.:37:06.

in the recommendations they will make over the next few months, we

:37:07.:37:11.

hope, to make sure we look after vulnerable customers who are not

:37:12.:37:15.

able to switch. We have said before that we will take seriously and act

:37:16.:37:19.

on the recommendations they make to make sure we look after those

:37:20.:37:26.

customers who haven't engaged in switching, but should be doing so,

:37:27.:37:29.

and we look forward to seeing their suggestions on Redmond remedies to

:37:30.:37:34.

do so. I welcome the concern by members across the house for

:37:35.:37:38.

consumers and best value. Last month the Secretary of State agreed to

:37:39.:37:40.

hand out hundreds of millions of pounds in new public subsidies to

:37:41.:37:46.

diesel and coal power generators through the capacity market scheme.

:37:47.:37:50.

Can she tell the house how much family energy bills will rise as a

:37:51.:37:57.

consequence? The capacity market is specifically designed to ensure that

:37:58.:38:01.

energy security is not negotiable. Energy security is something this

:38:02.:38:05.

government takes very seriously. Because of the lack of investment in

:38:06.:38:08.

energy infrastructure over the past decades we have needed to make sure

:38:09.:38:12.

the capacity market is in place to make sure we do not have any problem

:38:13.:38:17.

at all with energy security. Diesel will form a part of the future, but

:38:18.:38:22.

only in very small amounts. Let's remember, is there as back-up, and

:38:23.:38:25.

will be switched on occasionally when it's needed. The condition of

:38:26.:38:30.

the capacity market to people's bills will be a matter of a few

:38:31.:38:34.

pounds. It's astonishing she comes to the house and repeatedly said,

:38:35.:38:37.

and I quote, that the government wants to put as little pressure as

:38:38.:38:43.

possible onto hard-pressed households, and is spectacularly

:38:44.:38:45.

unable to answer a very simple question about how much this will

:38:46.:38:51.

put on to family energy bills. In just one day in December, she agreed

:38:52.:38:55.

to subsidise highly polluting diesel generators to the tune of ?175

:38:56.:39:03.

million, paid for by increasing family energy bills. Can she and is

:39:04.:39:07.

this, are those companies now expected to make returns of more

:39:08.:39:10.

than 20% at the expense of bill payers? What is astonishing is the

:39:11.:39:16.

honourable ladies's lack of understanding of the fact that the

:39:17.:39:21.

capacity market is needed because of Labour's woeful underinvestment in

:39:22.:39:24.

infrastructure under their government. We are left with the

:39:25.:39:29.

consequences of making sure their energy security is completely

:39:30.:39:33.

reliable. The capacity market is essential to ensure that hole is

:39:34.:39:36.

filled. We are proud of the way it has delivered at a second auction

:39:37.:39:42.

just completed. As I said, it's a few pounds, it will be under ?10,

:39:43.:39:46.

and we will ensure that energy security is never going to be a

:39:47.:39:52.

question under this government. Number 14, Mr Speaker. I can assure

:39:53.:40:00.

the honourable member that the good progress is being made. Energy

:40:01.:40:04.

suppliers have now installed over 200 metres in homes and small

:40:05.:40:07.

businesses across Britain ahead of the main installation state this

:40:08.:40:15.

year. -- stage this year. In September 2014 the Public Accounts

:40:16.:40:17.

Committee raised real concerns about the roll-out of smart meters.

:40:18.:40:22.

Recently a former Conservative energy adviser warned the Secretary

:40:23.:40:25.

of State that the roll-out would at best be regarded as a waste of

:40:26.:40:32.

money, and that it is now a ghastly mess, I quote. What are you doing to

:40:33.:40:37.

resolve these problems. I don't agree with that particular position.

:40:38.:40:42.

I think smart meters are going to have a great future in this country.

:40:43.:40:47.

We discussed earlier in these questions the issue of energy

:40:48.:40:50.

security and fuel poverty and smart meters will be a very good way for

:40:51.:40:55.

people to reduce their bills and use less energy, therefore creating less

:40:56.:40:58.

carbon emissions and smart meters are an aborted part. No doubt the

:40:59.:41:03.

introduction of smart meters will help customers control their energy

:41:04.:41:08.

bills. Just so they are aware of the background to this, can the Minister

:41:09.:41:12.

confirm that the UK is rolling out smart meters because of the European

:41:13.:41:25.

Union's directive 2009 Stoke 72 EC. The honourable gentleman is right

:41:26.:41:28.

that the European Union does have directives that give us guidance on

:41:29.:41:33.

this. But there is no question that this initiative of smart meters is

:41:34.:41:37.

of huge advantage to the UK customers, and it's the UK customers

:41:38.:41:40.

and consumers who will always be put first. Number 15, Mr Speaker. As my

:41:41.:41:50.

right honourable friend announced in her November speech, we are

:41:51.:41:53.

committed to the continued growth of UK offshore wind where Britain is

:41:54.:41:57.

already the world leader. This industry is a huge potential source

:41:58.:42:00.

of jobs and growth and we will always focus on maximising UK

:42:01.:42:04.

content in the supply chain. He will appreciate the decision on where to

:42:05.:42:08.

base one company's operations is a commercial decision for them,

:42:09.:42:12.

however, my officials are working closely with the developer can

:42:13.:42:15.

Scottish Gottman to maximise the use of UK Government in his wind farm.

:42:16.:42:17.

-- Scottish Government. Dundee and its port is ideally

:42:18.:42:30.

placed to provide operation maintain and air supply.

:42:31.:42:36.

Well, I absolutely agree with him. I am thinking, recently I visited one

:42:37.:42:41.

of the ports in Scotland, Aberdeen, to hear how they are trying to

:42:42.:42:47.

expand to accommodate not just their growth of offshore wind but the

:42:48.:42:50.

potential for decommissioning in the future. It is vital that whatever

:42:51.:42:57.

our energy policy we focus as far as possible on maximising all the

:42:58.:43:03.

content we can in the supply chain. Number 19, Mr Speaker.

:43:04.:43:09.

The oil and gas industry is vital to our economy, providing over 350,000

:43:10.:43:13.

jobs and the Government is committed to supporting it. Our latest

:43:14.:43:18.

projections show in 2030 oil and gas will still be a core part of our

:43:19.:43:24.

energy mix, providing nearly 70% of the UK's primary energy

:43:25.:43:26.

requirements. Our commitment to the industry is why we have established

:43:27.:43:31.

the oil and gas authority which is charged with working the industry to

:43:32.:43:36.

maximise the economic recovery of the UK's gas and oil resources. I

:43:37.:43:40.

thank the minister. The oil and gas industry has asked her Government

:43:41.:43:50.

for further tax relief. And the and a professor has said it is necessary

:43:51.:43:54.

to explore the potential of the North Sea. What considerations has

:43:55.:43:59.

she given to refundable tax credit for exploration?

:44:00.:44:03.

So the honourable lady will be aware that the Chancellor has already

:44:04.:44:11.

significantly improved the fiscal the regime to encourage for

:44:12.:44:15.

exploration in the North Sea basin. We had a series of meetings before

:44:16.:44:21.

Christmas with the oil and gas authority and others to discuss

:44:22.:44:25.

exactly what other measures could take and certainly that further

:44:26.:44:29.

fiscal measure is on the table. So too is the vital importance of

:44:30.:44:36.

getting production costs down, making more efficiencies, sharing

:44:37.:44:39.

infrastructure and that is what the OGA is focussed on doing. I am

:44:40.:44:44.

grateful to my honourable friend for raising that question and the reply.

:44:45.:44:47.

I can acknowledge the work the Government has done in this sector.

:44:48.:44:52.

Can the minister give me her assurance in the lead up to the

:44:53.:44:56.

Budget in March that she will leave no stone unturned in ensuring this

:44:57.:45:02.

vet lally important industry secures the support it needs at this

:45:03.:45:06.

difficult time? I am grateful to my honourable friend who has done so

:45:07.:45:11.

much - #230e cusses so much on this -- focuses so much on this sector.

:45:12.:45:15.

We are focussed on what can be done in all areas to try and support this

:45:16.:45:20.

vital UK sector. THE SPEAKER: Order. Topical

:45:21.:45:25.

questions. Mr Mann. Topical one, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, my thoughts are

:45:26.:45:30.

with all of those affected by the recent flooding. Energy security is

:45:31.:45:35.

our number one priority. We are working closely with the industry to

:45:36.:45:41.

look at the risks, including severe weather, to put protections in place

:45:42.:45:47.

and stop disruptions. We have ensured that power is restored to

:45:48.:45:51.

customers as soon as possible in very challenging circumstances.

:45:52.:45:56.

Everyone in this chamber benefits this year from the electricity the

:45:57.:46:04.

cool burnt - coal burnt at power stations. What contingency

:46:05.:46:09.

arrangement has been reached with EDF to ensure that in 2026 and

:46:10.:46:16.

beyond, when we don't have enough power available, the decision to

:46:17.:46:21.

close down coal-based power stations can be reversed? Well, Mr Speaker,

:46:22.:46:27.

can I reassure the honourable gentleman that we are moving to a

:46:28.:46:32.

consultation on ending coal-fired pou irstations by 2025 -- power

:46:33.:46:36.

stations by 2025. I am sure he'll want to participate in it. This

:46:37.:46:39.

Government is taking the long-term view on getting the right mix of

:46:40.:46:44.

decarbonising and having nerge security. That is why we are making

:46:45.:46:48.

this plan well ahead of time. It is ten years ahead. Thank you, Mr

:46:49.:46:54.

Speaker. Given the revisions to the feed-in tariffs which will come into

:46:55.:46:58.

force, has my friend made assessment on the likely effects on the solar

:46:59.:47:03.

industry, particularly in the south west, where the sun nearly always

:47:04.:47:09.

shines? Well, of course, he's absolutely right the sun always

:47:10.:47:14.

nearly shines there. It is a great place for solar has been a

:47:15.:47:19.

spectacular success there. The tariffs aim to give it sited with

:47:20.:47:27.

well-sighted projects. Around 5% for solar. We believe this will be by

:47:28.:47:34.

2021 save up to ?330 million a year to bill payers. At the same time

:47:35.:47:39.

enable 220,000 new installations to be subsidised under the new feeding

:47:40.:47:42.

tariff. Thank you. Can I welcome the

:47:43.:47:47.

Secretary of State's update to the House on the actions take no-one

:47:48.:47:50.

response to the floods. Particularly welcome the Prime Minister's

:47:51.:47:55.

decision to set up a cross-Whitehall review of the Government's approach

:47:56.:47:58.

to flood defences, which will consider the rising flood risk posed

:47:59.:48:02.

by climate change. Mr Speaker, we know now that the last review, in

:48:03.:48:07.

2014, which was also led by the member for West Dorset met just

:48:08.:48:12.

three times and didn't publish a single finding K the Secretary of

:48:13.:48:17.

State confirm to the House that she personally attends this committee?

:48:18.:48:20.

Can she tell us whether it has met yet? Can she tell us how often it

:48:21.:48:25.

plans to meet? Which independent expeshts are on it and what this

:48:26.:48:30.

time -- expects are on it and what she time she expects it to achieve?

:48:31.:48:34.

This Government takes seriously the impact of climate change and the

:48:35.:48:38.

fact it has had such a devastating impact in terms of the flooding

:48:39.:48:44.

recently. I can reassure here that we participated, this department, in

:48:45.:48:51.

regular meetings of COBRA on a almost daily basis, to ensure that

:48:52.:48:55.

electricity source were restored as quickly as possible. The review will

:48:56.:49:01.

take place and we will keep a careful, watchful eye on making sure

:49:02.:49:05.

it does meet and make sure it looks carefully at what impact it has had.

:49:06.:49:10.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. What steps is the Government taking to address the

:49:11.:49:14.

increasing shortage of skills in the nuclear industry? Well, we have

:49:15.:49:20.

already taken a lot of action to tackle the skills problem at a all

:49:21.:49:24.

levels, from programmes to attract more school children to stem

:49:25.:49:28.

careers, to apprenticeships and training at all levels, as well as

:49:29.:49:33.

setting in train work for transfer of skills from wider sectors. He's

:49:34.:49:37.

right to highlight the need for new nuclear skills. Hiply will provide

:49:38.:49:44.

25,000 jobs and 1,000 apprenticeships. Thank you Mr

:49:45.:49:49.

Speaker. It suggests 18700 jobs could be lost as a result of the 65%

:49:50.:49:56.

reduction to the solar feed-in tariff. What loss in income tax will

:49:57.:50:01.

this mean to Government, in light of the ?16 billion fall short of tax

:50:02.:50:08.

receipts last year? What is the combined effect if HMC press forward

:50:09.:50:13.

with the increase of tax to solar installations? I can assure the

:50:14.:50:18.

honourable gentleman this Government remains committed to the on-going

:50:19.:50:22.

success of the solar industry. As I explained in an earlier reply. What

:50:23.:50:26.

we cannot do is simply keep jobs going as a result of subsidy. Our

:50:27.:50:32.

best guess under our tariff is that will support up to 23,000 jobs in

:50:33.:50:37.

the solar sector. Of course it is up for the sector to bring down the

:50:38.:50:42.

costs, as far as possible, to reach a subsidy-free stage by 2020. Of

:50:43.:50:45.

course we will do everything we can, as I have said, if the VAT rate has

:50:46.:50:49.

to go up, then we will look at what more we can do within the tariff to

:50:50.:50:54.

ensure we don't penalise the sector. Thank you. Can I refer the House to

:50:55.:51:00.

my register, the register of interests as chairman of globe

:51:01.:51:04.

international, which held a successful summit recently in Paris

:51:05.:51:09.

as part of a process. Can I ask the Secretary of State, does she agree

:51:10.:51:17.

with me that the world's leading network of parliamentarians devoted

:51:18.:51:20.

to leadership, legislative leadership in climate change, has a

:51:21.:51:26.

key role to play to make sure it is reality. And to meet with me p to

:51:27.:51:32.

make sure this is achieved? Well, I thank the honourable gentleman for

:51:33.:51:36.

his question. I am aware that Globe is one of the largest forums on

:51:37.:51:43.

sustainable development. I acknowledge his important role in

:51:44.:51:47.

chairing it. I will be delighted to meet him to discuss how we can

:51:48.:51:51.

promote parliamentarian international development on this

:51:52.:51:56.

important subject. I was absolutely delighted when the minister said in

:51:57.:52:01.

June at her renewable summit that we will remove subsidies. When does she

:52:02.:52:08.

expect the subsidies to disappear completely? Projects just off the

:52:09.:52:14.

coast of the honourable member's constituency provide enough

:52:15.:52:19.

electricity for over 100,000 homes, follows hundreds of millions

:52:20.:52:22.

invested by the developer, much of which was spent locally. I am sure

:52:23.:52:27.

he'll welcome that. We have to get the balance between supporting newer

:52:28.:52:31.

technologies and being tough on subsidies to keep bills as low as

:52:32.:52:38.

possible. We will work towards getting technology subsidy, free.

:52:39.:52:48.

By far and aware in the EU one third of electricity comes from that

:52:49.:52:52.

source. China has 50 stations under construction. We need small modular

:52:53.:52:57.

reactors. Can the minister set up her plans and in this regard?

:52:58.:53:04.

Nuclear is an important part of our energy future. I am very proud we

:53:05.:53:08.

have signed the first new nuclear deal in over 20 years. It will have

:53:09.:53:17.

an important part. We are using part of our substantial innovation

:53:18.:53:21.

funding to make sure we bring them on as early as possible. It will not

:53:22.:53:27.

be at the expect of reactors going forward. Smaller nuclear is what we

:53:28.:53:35.

will aim for. Earlier this week the SNP agreed a support package to

:53:36.:53:42.

retain staff at DL and Clydebridge steel plans, this will address

:53:43.:53:48.

costs. Can I ask what consideration the Secretary of State or of Cabinet

:53:49.:53:54.

colleagues va given to bringing forward a co-her hent strategy to

:53:55.:53:58.

address the high energy costs facing businesses across the UK? We are

:53:59.:54:03.

well aware of the importance of keeping energy costs down in order

:54:04.:54:06.

to support businesses and households. My honourable friend,

:54:07.:54:12.

the Prime Minister, announced that intensives would be given a specific

:54:13.:54:17.

package of support and that has got state aid clearance and will be put

:54:18.:54:20.

in place as soon as possible. The minister will be aware that just

:54:21.:54:26.

before Christmas, the European Commission announced new tariffs in

:54:27.:54:32.

Malaysian power and they would back these to May last year. That could

:54:33.:54:38.

result in many solar companies having an unwant and devastating tax

:54:39.:54:43.

-- unwanted and devastating tax bill. Will she make sure this does

:54:44.:54:47.

not happen? I think the honourable gentleman is right to raise this. It

:54:48.:54:50.

is a real concern that in spite of the fact that the cost of solar

:54:51.:54:56.

panels have developed dramatically, nevertheless in Europe they remain

:54:57.:55:01.

higher than elsewhere in the world as a result of the import tariffs.

:55:02.:55:05.

The commissioner was writ on the explaining how bad this is for the

:55:06.:55:08.

onof going success of the UK industry. We will do everything we

:55:09.:55:13.

can to ensure that those get removed as soon as possible.

:55:14.:55:18.

Mr Speaker, we were disapointed in the Humber last year not to be

:55:19.:55:23.

granted the national wind college in the locality, especially in light of

:55:24.:55:27.

the renewables which is important to the future of the Humber area. I

:55:28.:55:33.

wonder if ministers would meet with me and representatives to discuss

:55:34.:55:39.

what can be done to promote a national wind college to promote

:55:40.:55:43.

funding in the area. I would be delighted to meet with her and

:55:44.:55:49.

colleagues. I had a huge u poer to see the new blade -- I - there have

:55:50.:55:59.

been new jobs and apprenticeships in her area. I think we should do

:56:00.:56:04.

everything we can to promote this northern energy powerhouse, which is

:56:05.:56:07.

taking off and doing so well. THE SPEAKER: There is an arm of

:56:08.:56:14.

opposition members to catch my eye. I say to the member that I don't

:56:15.:56:20.

want him to feel excluded. If he wishes to contribute now we will

:56:21.:56:24.

happily hear him. Not at the moment. As soon as he wants to, he can. Mr

:56:25.:56:29.

Newlands. These households are more likely to

:56:30.:56:48.

have prepaid metres. These are ?200 more ex-penive per year. Can the

:56:49.:56:53.

speck of state tell me what she will do to make sure they have

:56:54.:57:00.

availability to lower prices, as those on other methods?

:57:01.:57:07.

In Paisley and Renfrewshire North, there have been eco-measures that

:57:08.:57:14.

will help your constituents. 119 measures per 100,000 households to

:57:15.:57:19.

be installed by 2015, compared to the average 77 per thousand in the

:57:20.:57:25.

rest of the UK. Rest assured we are focused on making sure bills stay

:57:26.:57:30.

low and making sure fuel poverty is addressed and the ecosystem is one

:57:31.:57:35.

of the best ways to do that. In Northern Ireland one in five

:57:36.:57:40.

pensioners are defined as living in income poverty. 65% of those are in

:57:41.:57:47.

fuel poverty. What about the dealings with colleagues in Northern

:57:48.:57:54.

Ireland to address these issues? Keeping fuel poverty up they are

:57:55.:57:57.

making sure we can keep bills down is a absolute priority. Regarding

:57:58.:58:01.

the statistics, I'd have to write to him. Outside Hinkley Point C, the

:58:02.:58:10.

proposed new power station the government is considering, this

:58:11.:58:15.

means yet again the government will be held to hostage. No guaranteed

:58:16.:58:19.

programme, high profits for the suppliers, extortionate rates

:58:20.:58:25.

agreed, for the just to users. Should the government not do the

:58:26.:58:28.

decent thing and rethink this nuclear at all cost policy? The

:58:29.:58:36.

government thinks nuclear reactors are an important part of delivering

:58:37.:58:39.

on a low carbon future. There is a great opportunity to make sure we

:58:40.:58:44.

develop skills. On the particular example he has referred to, I will

:58:45.:58:48.

ensure my department looks at it carefully and comes back with

:58:49.:58:53.

answers. In her attempt to explain the hugely unpopular cuts to solar,

:58:54.:58:57.

the Secretary of State constantly pretends it's about reducing costs

:58:58.:59:01.

to householders. Given industry analysis shows solar costs around

:59:02.:59:04.

half the cost of Hinckley over 35 years and save consumers around ?15

:59:05.:59:11.

billion, how can she keep justifying such blatant double standards when

:59:12.:59:15.

it comes to nuclear power? The honourable ladies not dealing with

:59:16.:59:19.

the facts. The facts are that the solar changes will still deliver 5%

:59:20.:59:24.

yields to people who put them up. The fact is that nuclear provides

:59:25.:59:29.

important baseload. When the sun isn't shining, or when the wind

:59:30.:59:32.

isn't blowing. The honourable lady can have her own views but not her

:59:33.:59:40.

own facts. Last, but never forgotten, Mr Skinner. With the

:59:41.:59:46.

Chinese economy hitting the buffers, week after week, does it make sense

:59:47.:59:57.

to continue with this Chinese connection of nuclear power in

:59:58.:00:00.

Britain? Isn't it time it was abandoned? A shine has been knocked

:00:01.:00:05.

off it every single day. Change your mind. Can I reassure the honourable

:00:06.:00:13.

gentleman that we are ambitious for this country, confident in our

:00:14.:00:17.

regulations, open for business, and if the Chinese want to make a

:00:18.:00:20.

substantial investment in delivery new nuclear then we will be able to

:00:21.:00:24.

take it and make a great success of it. Order, business question. Chris

:00:25.:00:31.

Bryant. We'll be leader give us the business for this week and next week

:00:32.:00:38.

and all the rest? Probably not all the rest, Mr Speaker, but the

:00:39.:00:42.

business next week on Monday the 11th, we will debate the remaining

:00:43.:00:46.

stages of the Armed Forces Bill. After that, a general debate on

:00:47.:00:50.

local government funding for rural areas nominated by the backbench

:00:51.:00:54.

business committee. On Tuesday the 12th, the conclusion of the

:00:55.:00:57.

remaining stages of the Housing and planning Bill. On Wednesday the

:00:58.:01:02.

13th, an opposition day with a debate on trade exports, innovation

:01:03.:01:06.

and productivity in the name of the Scottish National party. On Thursday

:01:07.:01:12.

the 14th, another day of business nominated by the backbench business

:01:13.:01:15.

committee. On Friday the 15th of January, we are not sitting. The

:01:16.:01:20.

provisional business for the week commencing the 18th of January will

:01:21.:01:23.

include, on Monday the 18th, the second reading of the energy bill at

:01:24.:01:29.

the Lords. Tuesday the 19th, another opposition day on a motion to be

:01:30.:01:34.

announced by the party opposite. Wednesday the 28, we have the

:01:35.:01:38.

remaining stages of the psychoactive substances bill at the Lords,

:01:39.:01:42.

followed if necessary by consideration of Lords amendments.

:01:43.:01:45.

On Thursday the 21st of January, another day of business nominated by

:01:46.:01:51.

the backbench business committee. On Friday the 22nd we will debate the

:01:52.:01:53.

private members bills. I should inform the house that the business

:01:54.:01:57.

in the Westminster Hall for the 18th of January, decided buy the

:01:58.:02:03.

petitions committee will be a debate on the petition is relating to the

:02:04.:02:06.

exclusion of Donald Trump from the United Kingdom. I'm certainly up for

:02:07.:02:14.

that one. Mr Speaker, happy New Year, and if you were Russian, happy

:02:15.:02:19.

Christmas. Many congratulations for the honourable member for North West

:02:20.:02:22.

Norfolk and the wonderful Chief Whip who proves that there is nothing

:02:23.:02:31.

quite like a game. -- a game. Warm congratulations to the new Serjeant

:02:32.:02:35.

at Arms elect. We look forward to working with him. In the words of

:02:36.:02:40.

Stephen Sondheim, I'm still here. LAUGHTER

:02:41.:02:50.

I'm delighted, Mr Speaker, that the honourable member for

:02:51.:02:53.

Stratford-upon-Avon yesterday joined my call for a proper parliamentary

:02:54.:02:59.

commemoration for the 400th anniversary of the death of William

:03:00.:03:05.

Shakespeare, but I thought he rather marred the effect by referring to

:03:06.:03:09.

him as the greatest living bard, which Hansard has corrected for him.

:03:10.:03:16.

Should we have a Shakespeare debate in order to consider the

:03:17.:03:19.

government's own special use of the English language? The Leader of the

:03:20.:03:24.

Opposition asked yesterday about the ?120 million flood defence projects

:03:25.:03:30.

in Leeds that was cancelled in 2011. The Prime Minister stated quite

:03:31.:03:34.

categorically that no flood defence schemes had been cancelled since

:03:35.:03:39.

2010, but that's not quite the case, is it, Mr Speaker? The Prime

:03:40.:03:43.

Minister's official spokesman had to dig the Prime Minister out of that

:03:44.:03:47.

hole bio referring to the most extraordinary bout of circulation

:03:48.:03:58.

yesterday saying that Jeremy Corbyn had a proposal made but not adopted.

:03:59.:04:03.

In Shakespeare's in this, that means it was cancelled. The truth is that

:04:04.:04:08.

families don't want spend, they want proper protection from flooding.

:04:09.:04:13.

That wasn't all. When the member for Cardiff West asked the Prime

:04:14.:04:16.

Minister about the nub of special advisers, the Prime Minister said

:04:17.:04:19.

that there were fewer special advisers under this government than

:04:20.:04:22.

there were under the last government. He meant as old to

:04:23.:04:26.

believe that he had cut the number of special advisers since it came to

:04:27.:04:31.

power. He can't have meant that, can he, because under the last Prime

:04:32.:04:35.

Minister there were 71 special advisers. Now there are 97. I know

:04:36.:04:41.

the Secretary of State for Education can't do her times tables, but even

:04:42.:04:44.

she must be able to work out that is a net increase of 26. The Prime

:04:45.:04:50.

Minister's words yesterday can only be true if, when he said the last

:04:51.:04:55.

judgment, he didn't mean the Labour government, he meant the government

:04:56.:05:00.

he led last year. It's as if he hasn't existed for five years. I've

:05:01.:05:04.

heard of people being airbrushed out of history by their opponents, but

:05:05.:05:08.

this is the first time I've ever heard of a Prime Minister

:05:09.:05:11.

airbrushing himself out of his own history books. I note that yet again

:05:12.:05:15.

the leader of the house has only given us the dates for the East of

:05:16.:05:20.

recess and not for the State Opening of Parliament over the Whitsun

:05:21.:05:27.

recess. Is that because he doesn't yet know when he will table the

:05:28.:05:33.

motion for the EU referendum date? Can he now come clean? Can he tell

:05:34.:05:38.

us how he will vote? It's not a matter of conscience for him any

:05:39.:05:42.

more, he would even be able to keep his two special advisers and

:05:43.:05:45.

ministerial car and salary. He could tell us, in or out. It's an outcome

:05:46.:05:54.

isn't it? Come on, come out! Can I also suggest that after every

:05:55.:06:00.

recess, the first day back is devoted to no business other than

:06:01.:06:04.

statements from government ministers and urgent questions. Firstly, it

:06:05.:06:07.

might stop the government from piling up bad news announcements for

:06:08.:06:11.

the last day before the recess. This December was the worst ever with 36

:06:12.:06:16.

in one day. In one day we learned immigration officers have given up

:06:17.:06:20.

hunting for 10,000 missing asylum seekers, the HMRC lost out on ?16

:06:21.:06:25.

billion of tax, there will be a massive expansion of fracking for

:06:26.:06:29.

shale gas, and in the recess we learned that the government has

:06:30.:06:33.

abandoned the SCA review of the culture of banking, and half the

:06:34.:06:36.

Cabinet went to pay tribute to Rupert Murdoch. Bearing gifts of a

:06:37.:06:44.

licence fee cut, and ending the Levenson and tax cuts for

:06:45.:06:47.

billionaires. Isn't it time they learned that Rupert isn't the

:06:48.:06:52.

Messiah, he's a very naughty boy. On Tuesday we will have the remaining

:06:53.:06:56.

stages of the Housing Bill. For the first time in our history, some

:06:57.:06:59.

members of this house will be barred from voting in a division in this

:07:00.:07:04.

chamber. Was it not propose to us that we started debating the bill at

:07:05.:07:10.

8:50pm on Tuesday, and over the recess the government tabled 65

:07:11.:07:14.

pages of amendments to a bill that is only 145 pages long. Not one

:07:15.:07:19.

amendment on resilience and sustainable drainage. Can the leader

:07:20.:07:24.

calorie and a view things about the operation of evil on Tuesday next

:07:25.:07:28.

week? Because of the programme motion the government has tabled we

:07:29.:07:32.

will have to proceed on the basis of manuscript motions from the

:07:33.:07:35.

government and manuscript amendments, if there are any. That's

:07:36.:07:39.

right, isn't it? Surely it's wrong to proceed on shut important

:07:40.:07:43.

measures the first time we are doing this on manuscript business. Would

:07:44.:07:47.

it be better to devote the whole of Tuesday to report stage and keep

:07:48.:07:52.

remaining stages for another day. Could there be a clearer symbol of

:07:53.:07:58.

how incompetent conservative ministers are than the events of

:07:59.:08:04.

this Monday afternoon when two government ministers visited flood

:08:05.:08:08.

victims in Pooley. Not only did they arrive late, but they turned up at

:08:09.:08:11.

the wrong end of a bridge that had been washed away a month ago. A

:08:12.:08:15.

farmer had to be dispatched on a quad bike to take the two MPs a 30

:08:16.:08:22.

minute ride, while the bewildered entourage of civil servants, and hat

:08:23.:08:25.

carriers to trundle along in a minibus. I suppose you can just

:08:26.:08:30.

understand the confusion if it weren't for the fact that the two

:08:31.:08:34.

ministers concerned with the transport minister, who really

:08:35.:08:37.

should know when a bridge has disappeared, and the local MP! Who

:08:38.:08:41.

had already visited the bridge once before since the bridge disappeared.

:08:42.:08:47.

I gather there was some signalling from the villagers on the other side

:08:48.:08:51.

of the river, but it's not quite clear what they were trying to

:08:52.:08:57.

suggest. You really couldn't make it up, could you, Mr Speaker. Finally,

:08:58.:09:02.

four new elements of the periodic table have been discovered this

:09:03.:09:05.

week, and scientists are looking for new names for them. Apparently,

:09:06.:09:10.

these elements are dangerous and short lived. Rather like the...

:09:11.:09:16.

Rather like the Right Honourable member's policies at the Ministry of

:09:17.:09:20.

Justice. Can I suggest one of them is named Graylingium. Welcome to day

:09:21.:09:35.

four of the Labour reshuffle. I imagine it's been a frustrating week

:09:36.:09:40.

for the shadow leader. As Oscar Wilde so famously said, the only

:09:41.:09:42.

thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Never

:09:43.:09:48.

mind, I suspect he will make a return to the on Monday. It's his

:09:49.:09:53.

birthday and I think he will appear in the court circular and I wish him

:09:54.:10:00.

happy birthday for next week. Can I also echo your comments yesterday

:10:01.:10:04.

about the new Serjeant at Arms. I worked with him, he's a fine man and

:10:05.:10:11.

a consummate professional. When I discovered he was in the frame for

:10:12.:10:15.

this job I was delighted. He will be an excellent appointment and will

:10:16.:10:18.

serve the house at Arab League. I'm very grateful to all of those who

:10:19.:10:22.

sat as part of the recruitment process for the work they did, for

:10:23.:10:27.

the choice they made, and I would commend the appointment of a house.

:10:28.:10:35.

-- serve the house admirably. The new Northern Irish First Minister

:10:36.:10:39.

took her position over the Christmas period and takes up a difficult and

:10:40.:10:43.

challenging role. It's in all of our interests to wish her well for it.

:10:44.:10:48.

We all want to see stability continue in Northern Ireland and it

:10:49.:10:53.

continued to succeed in the future. On the European Union, the Labour

:10:54.:10:58.

Party has a leader who has changed his mind twice in the last few

:10:59.:11:02.

months. They claim to support a reformed European Union, but won't

:11:03.:11:05.

say what they want to reform. They didn't even want a referendum. The

:11:06.:11:10.

Prime Minister this week has done the right thing. I'm not going to

:11:11.:11:14.

take any lessons from the party opposite. When are they ever going

:11:15.:11:17.

to do the right thing for their people? Mr Speaker, he talks about

:11:18.:11:25.

the issue of what people meant, what people say. I would remind him of

:11:26.:11:31.

what it means in a Labour Party when people say something. In a Labour

:11:32.:11:36.

Party... The Conservative Party, a free vote means you can vote

:11:37.:11:40.

according to your own conscience. In the Labour Party, a free vote means

:11:41.:11:43.

you can vote according to the leader's conscience. In terms of the

:11:44.:11:51.

flooding issue, I am proud of the response this country has made to a

:11:52.:11:56.

devastating situation in so many parts of the country. Our emergency

:11:57.:12:02.

services, our voluntary services, local community, the Armed Forces,

:12:03.:12:05.

have come together to deal with a dreadful situation I think

:12:06.:12:10.

effectively and well. We have committed as a government to provide

:12:11.:12:13.

financial support to all communities affected in a way that goes far

:12:14.:12:16.

beyond what has taken place in the past.

:12:17.:12:23.

But I am proud of the way this country has responded. I'm happy to

:12:24.:12:30.

say I think we have done a better job this time than has been done in

:12:31.:12:35.

the past. We will learn lessons for the future, but it is imperative

:12:36.:12:39.

that we do the right thing when troubles like this strike. On the

:12:40.:12:43.

question of the announcements made before Christmas. I have stood at

:12:44.:12:48.

this dispatch box week after week, listening to questions on when can

:12:49.:12:54.

we have an update, can we have an announcement for Christmas, can we

:12:55.:12:58.

have a publication of the report before Christmas? We actually

:12:59.:13:03.

produced before Christmas a whole range of announcements and

:13:04.:13:05.

publications confirmations, then they complain about it. It is

:13:06.:13:10.

nonsense. We will do the right thing this country. It will continue to

:13:11.:13:15.

complain about it, but I am taking no lessons from them. On the housing

:13:16.:13:23.

report, we are having a two-day report on this bill, something which

:13:24.:13:25.

is often called for. At 1am on Tuesday, when we, and this

:13:26.:13:44.

side of the house, were debating those measures, most of the people

:13:45.:13:48.

on the benches opposite had gone home to bed, so why will take no

:13:49.:13:52.

lessons from him either on them saying we should be offering more

:13:53.:13:55.

time for debate on when we are debating and fearlessly. He brought

:13:56.:14:01.

up the question of Shakespeare. And when I listen to him, it reminds me,

:14:02.:14:06.

when I listen to him, it reminds me of that great quote from King Lear,

:14:07.:14:17.

have more than usual, speak less than you know. We should express our

:14:18.:14:24.

thanks to the Labour Party. When we come back to work after Christmas,

:14:25.:14:30.

we think, I wish it could be Christmas every day. Looking at the

:14:31.:14:38.

Labour reshuffle, frankly, it is. Successful local businesses in a

:14:39.:14:44.

prominent office building in my constituency have recently been

:14:45.:14:47.

informed they will have to vacate so that force can be converted. Come

:14:48.:14:52.

and have a debate and consider whether the planning system affords

:14:53.:14:58.

adequate protection for high-quality business space, which is so vital

:14:59.:15:01.

for generating jobs in places like Cheltenham? I understand these

:15:02.:15:07.

points. The change we have brought forward is to make sure that

:15:08.:15:12.

redundant office buildings can be quickly used for residential

:15:13.:15:16.

purposes, given the nature of the housing challenge we face in this

:15:17.:15:19.

country. We all agree we need to make more housing available, but I

:15:20.:15:24.

will take note of what he says. There will be an opportunity to

:15:25.:15:28.

question the Secretary of State for local government. I think he does

:15:29.:15:31.

make a valid point, but I think this is a policy we need to make sure we

:15:32.:15:35.

don't have empty commercial buildings of people are struggling

:15:36.:15:41.

to get on the housing ladder. Thank you for announcing the business for

:15:42.:15:45.

next week. Can I take this opportunity to wish you properly a

:15:46.:15:50.

happy New Year and that is extended to all the staff who worked so

:15:51.:15:55.

diligently throughout the course of the year. On behalf of the Scottish

:15:56.:16:03.

National party, we want to congratulate the first BM ease

:16:04.:16:09.

Serjeant at Arms and we wish them the best for the future. I think

:16:10.:16:14.

this could be a fantastic year, it will be a particularly good year for

:16:15.:16:20.

the SNP. Restart the New Year just as we entered the old year, with

:16:21.:16:25.

divisions in the Conservative Party and the Labour Party. With the

:16:26.:16:29.

Conservatives, it is Europe as usual and I know the leader of the house

:16:30.:16:33.

is now looking forward to campaigning for the cherished exit.

:16:34.:16:39.

At least he will have the opportunity. We might, as a nation,

:16:40.:16:45.

be taken out of the European Union against our will. The Labour Party

:16:46.:16:49.

are probably divided on just about anything else, and as the Civil War

:16:50.:16:55.

descends into the total, intractable variety, it is time to send some

:16:56.:16:59.

international peace envoy, because somebody needs to rescue them from

:17:00.:17:05.

themselves. This week's business has been dominated by the flooding, the

:17:06.:17:10.

flooding that has impacted on practically every constituency in

:17:11.:17:14.

this nation, and my constituency remains so much underwater, given I

:17:15.:17:18.

have the biggest river system in the whole of the UK. But that is a

:17:19.:17:22.

massive disappointment in the country on the tune of the debate.

:17:23.:17:29.

When we have tragedy like we have observed, I think this house hasn't

:17:30.:17:33.

risen to the occasion and debates have been of their partisan and

:17:34.:17:41.

point-scoring for IT. There will be much more debates like that in the

:17:42.:17:47.

future. Can I make an appeal, but we try to debate this properly and

:17:48.:17:50.

consensually and constructively, might we have heard on the SNP when

:17:51.:17:54.

we have addressed these issues in this house. Listening to the

:17:55.:18:00.

Chancellor this morning, what has happened to the Chancellor? After

:18:01.:18:06.

all the cheesiness of the Autumn Statement and the gloom today, I

:18:07.:18:10.

don't know if it is just some are characteristic honesty, Dorothy has

:18:11.:18:15.

had some assessment of the fortunes of the country? Perhaps we can find

:18:16.:18:26.

out what is ailing him and offer him some proper economic medicine. As we

:18:27.:18:35.

finish this debate today, we will be discussing the appalling situation

:18:36.:18:38.

of the unfair change to the state pension imposed on women. I'm

:18:39.:18:48.

delighted that it is the youngest member of this house who will be

:18:49.:18:52.

leading the debate. So many of our constituents caught up in this trap

:18:53.:18:57.

and we're hoping to hear something positive today when the minister

:18:58.:19:02.

response. Let's just hope the government thinks about doing the

:19:03.:19:05.

right thing for obese women. Lastly, this will be a massive year, and of

:19:06.:19:09.

the government think they can put their feet up while observing the

:19:10.:19:13.

chaos in the Labour Party, they will have another thought, because it

:19:14.:19:17.

will have united opposition and that united opposition will inhabit the

:19:18.:19:21.

benches here, which will make sure the government is held to account.

:19:22.:19:29.

Happy New Year to the honourable gentleman and his colleagues. It is

:19:30.:19:35.

good to see him back in this house. We are going to disagree on much

:19:36.:19:40.

this year, but on that latter point, we will agree. It has been a

:19:41.:19:43.

shambles. The one thing that has been a shambles -- hasn't been a

:19:44.:19:54.

shambles is that I do offer congratulations to the opposition

:19:55.:19:58.

Chief Whip. It is a well-deserved honour, she has been an excellent

:19:59.:20:02.

servant of those highs and it is something that has been welcomed on

:20:03.:20:07.

all sides of this house. I offer her my sincere congratulations. The

:20:08.:20:19.

shadow leader likes the sound of his own voice more than anyone else in

:20:20.:20:23.

this place. If you could just be patient, I was about to come on and

:20:24.:20:35.

say I am also delighted that the other member honoured in the New

:20:36.:20:40.

Year 's Honours list, they both very much deserved it and I apologise for

:20:41.:20:45.

not seeing so earlier. It has been an utter shambles in the Labour

:20:46.:20:54.

Party. I noticed the shadow leader's Parliamentary Private Sega J has

:20:55.:20:59.

disappeared, so maybe he is being moved around into different

:21:00.:21:07.

positions. You could not make up the idea that we would get into four

:21:08.:21:13.

days of the reshuffle and this is just a sign of how utterly

:21:14.:21:15.

incompetent they are as an opposition. But he is back on some

:21:16.:21:20.

of his usual themes this week. I would remind him that the United

:21:21.:21:25.

Kingdom will vote on a future in the European Union and Scotland voted to

:21:26.:21:30.

be a part of the United Kingdom. I know he has never quite accepted

:21:31.:21:35.

that reality, but the reality is nonetheless that Scotland chose to

:21:36.:21:38.

be part of the United Kingdom and we will vote as one United Kingdom. On

:21:39.:21:43.

the economy, the Chancellor is talking about the challenges we face

:21:44.:21:51.

internationally. The number of people claiming jobseeker's

:21:52.:21:55.

allowance has have since 2010. The number of children growing up in

:21:56.:21:59.

work with households has fallen by half a million. The level of

:22:00.:22:03.

employment in this country has mushroomed under this government. He

:22:04.:22:09.

should look across at this bench and say, these are people who have

:22:10.:22:12.

delivered for this country and they will carry on delivering for this

:22:13.:22:17.

country. He talked about the floods, I would pay to beat all of those in

:22:18.:22:24.

Scotland. I know Southwest Scotland was particularly badly affected. All

:22:25.:22:29.

those involved in the emergency services have done a fairly good

:22:30.:22:34.

job. It was a distressing period for this country, I hope those

:22:35.:22:38.

communities get themselves back together shortly. I will look

:22:39.:22:43.

forward this year to our usual amicable debate. We will not agree

:22:44.:22:47.

on most things, but I always enjoy seeing him there and I look forward

:22:48.:22:52.

to this year. Do you recall that in little bit this year, the

:22:53.:22:59.

administration nodded through an unwelcome recommendation from the

:23:00.:23:01.

House of Lords that we should abandon the centuries-old tradition

:23:02.:23:05.

of recording acts of parliament on bail, will which means we are

:23:06.:23:10.

putting out a number of workers in Milton Keynes, who are the last

:23:11.:23:22.

remaining experts on this. -- recording acts of Parliament on

:23:23.:23:34.

vellum. Will the other house tell me if the government has any plans to

:23:35.:23:39.

make time available for debate and if there is no debate, can he

:23:40.:23:43.

confirm the recommendation cannot go ahead? This is a matter for

:23:44.:23:50.

discussion by the relevant committees, it is on their agendas.

:23:51.:23:55.

As of today, I have had no requests to make available time. There is a

:23:56.:24:00.

balance between maintaining traditions of this house and

:24:01.:24:04.

country, also making sure what we do is cost effective. It is a matter

:24:05.:24:09.

for debate and am not aware that any final decision has been reached. Can

:24:10.:24:17.

we have a debate, perhaps in government time, or in backbench

:24:18.:24:20.

business, on flooding, with a particular focus on Brazilians of

:24:21.:24:28.

major critical infrastructure assets. A quarter of all bridges,

:24:29.:24:36.

10% of all emergency stations, 6% of hospitals are in areas susceptible

:24:37.:24:40.

to flooding. The last resilience review did not report to Parliament

:24:41.:24:45.

because of national security issues. Can he make sure that the next flood

:24:46.:24:50.

resilience report which is about to be carried out, does report to this

:24:51.:24:54.

place and is treated by the intelligence and Security committee

:24:55.:24:56.

as the national security threat which it actually is. One of the

:24:57.:25:02.

things we will have to do is learn lessons from the flooding, like the

:25:03.:25:08.

areas where mobile phone networks have come down. These are things

:25:09.:25:14.

that are already being looked at very carefully in the government

:25:15.:25:17.

office. We did have a debate yesterday, there will be further

:25:18.:25:21.

opportunities to discuss this in future, but I can assure her that

:25:22.:25:27.

work is taking place now to make sure lessons are learned and been

:25:28.:25:32.

can protect our critical national infrastructure. She is absolutely

:25:33.:25:39.

right. We have a debate on the action needed on air pollution on

:25:40.:25:43.

health. Across the world, we are losing around 7 million people a

:25:44.:25:50.

year due to the effects of air pollution and locally, the terrible

:25:51.:25:54.

consequences of standing traffic, which you see in my constituency. I

:25:55.:26:00.

know she has been a tireless campaigner since her election on

:26:01.:26:03.

trying to secure local improvements. I know she campaigned on a link

:26:04.:26:09.

ruled in her constituency. Many of these decisions are now taken

:26:10.:26:14.

locally and discussions with county councils about what should be

:26:15.:26:18.

prioritised for the future. We will continue to look for ways in the

:26:19.:26:22.

best thing nationally and providing financial support to local and

:26:23.:26:26.

regional authorities to make sure we provide what they need to keep

:26:27.:26:30.

traffic flowing and ease the ear pollution. Could I thank the leader

:26:31.:26:39.

of the highs for the business statement and the advance notice of

:26:40.:26:43.

the two days of backbench business committee debates to be held on the

:26:44.:26:49.

14th and the 21st. I'm glad to say that before the Christmas recess, we

:26:50.:26:52.

were pretty much up-to-date with our waiting list of debates to be tabled

:26:53.:27:00.

and we must have a clear deck, so appealing to honourable members

:27:01.:27:02.

across the house for applications for business on those two days.

:27:03.:27:04.

Thank very much. Can I commend the honourable

:27:05.:27:14.

gentleman and his committee for the work they do. For the backbench

:27:15.:27:17.

system to work well we need colleagues on all sides to come

:27:18.:27:21.

forward with topics for debate. We have seen requests in this session

:27:22.:27:26.

in recent weeks for things like the debates on policing and so forth,

:27:27.:27:31.

and I want to see members seeing those traditions continue, but the

:27:32.:27:34.

appropriate channel now is to go through the backbench business

:27:35.:27:37.

committee, where I'm think there will be a receptive ear. Is the

:27:38.:27:43.

leader of the house aware that the European Commission is attempting

:27:44.:27:47.

for the third time to introduce damaging and wasteful regulations on

:27:48.:27:54.

the UK's ports? Employers and workers representatives agree that

:27:55.:27:58.

these measures will damage investment and jobs. The European

:27:59.:28:05.

committee of which I am a member has called for these measures to be

:28:06.:28:09.

debated on the floor of the house, not in committee. Can the leader of

:28:10.:28:14.

the house look urgently at this issue and ensure this matter is

:28:15.:28:17.

properly scrutinised by the whole house? I'm aware of the issue. I've

:28:18.:28:23.

had a number of discussions with colleagues who represent ports and

:28:24.:28:26.

have concerns about these issues in the last couple of days. The Chief

:28:27.:28:31.

Whip and I are considering those representations now and I can assure

:28:32.:28:34.

my honourable friend this is a matter that is on our agenda. We

:28:35.:28:39.

have to make sure this is got right. When the Prime Minister talks about

:28:40.:28:42.

the need for deregulation in Europe, he's right, and it's not entirely

:28:43.:28:48.

clear to me why we should have regulation of ports at European

:28:49.:28:53.

level anyway. It needs to be the right regulation, if it needs to

:28:54.:28:58.

happen at all. The leader of the house will be delighted to know that

:28:59.:29:02.

Hull has been put in the top ten cities of the world to visit by the

:29:03.:29:06.

rough guide, alongside Vancouver and Amsterdam. I can see he's delighted

:29:07.:29:12.

by that why the comment he is making to the government Chief Whip. On

:29:13.:29:16.

that basis, can we please have a statement from the Minister for the

:29:17.:29:22.

Northern powerhouse to discuss how transport links can be improved to a

:29:23.:29:28.

global city, and the UK global city of culture 2017, including

:29:29.:29:31.

electrified rail and the scrapping of the Humber tolls on the Humber

:29:32.:29:36.

Bridge. Can I congratulate her and all the people of Hull on a

:29:37.:29:41.

remarkable achievement. It's always a matter of pride to this country

:29:42.:29:46.

when one of our great cities received worldwide acclamation and

:29:47.:29:49.

we can all be proud of Hull making that achievement. We should also be

:29:50.:29:54.

proud of the preparations for the capital of culture year. It promises

:29:55.:29:58.

to be a great year for the city. I know my colleagues in different

:29:59.:30:01.

parts of government will do what they can to help ensure that for the

:30:02.:30:05.

people and authorities of Hull, it's a moment of great historic

:30:06.:30:09.

importance and enjoyment for the city. The Prime Minister quite

:30:10.:30:16.

rightly has made the decision that all members on this side of the

:30:17.:30:19.

house can speak with their conscience over the European debate,

:30:20.:30:23.

and rightly so. Given that, can we have a series of debates on the

:30:24.:30:26.

European Union and what it will mean for this country when the referendum

:30:27.:30:30.

comes, so the people of this country are aware of what they can and can't

:30:31.:30:34.

vote for and why they should and shouldn't vote the way there

:30:35.:30:38.

conscience is take, the way this side of the house can. I suspect we

:30:39.:30:43.

will have extensive debates in this house and around the country, and

:30:44.:30:47.

rightly so, over the next few months. This is perhaps the key

:30:48.:30:53.

issue for our generation. While there appears to the debate around

:30:54.:30:59.

much of the country, they do not have the debate on the other side of

:31:00.:31:04.

the house. They called for a reformed European Union, but will

:31:05.:31:07.

not say what they are prepared to reform. Can I thank the leader of

:31:08.:31:14.

the house for his kind comments in relation to the new leader of the

:31:15.:31:20.

DUP, and the incoming First Minister. We look forward to a

:31:21.:31:27.

bright future for Northern Ireland. The leader of the house will be

:31:28.:31:29.

aware, because I know of his interest in this, of the High Court

:31:30.:31:34.

decision to grant a was at control licence, something that took five

:31:35.:31:37.

years to happen. In light of that High Court decision, will the leader

:31:38.:31:47.

of the house say that all future buzzard control licences will be

:31:48.:31:53.

looked unfavourably in the future? I will ensure that my right honourable

:31:54.:32:01.

friend takes a look and gives a proper response. I'll ask him to

:32:02.:32:08.

write to and respond. As somebody interested in international Pavel

:32:09.:32:10.

and, you will be interested to know I just returned from Uganda, looking

:32:11.:32:15.

at the terrible situation of the malaria epidemic in the north of the

:32:16.:32:20.

country. Could we have a debate on the health systems in Uganda which

:32:21.:32:25.

are failing the people, mothers and children are dying of malaria, it

:32:26.:32:28.

should not be happening in this day and age. Could we have an urgent

:32:29.:32:32.

debate on discussing this situation in this house, please. First of all,

:32:33.:32:38.

can I commend my honourable friend on the work she's doing. Malaria is

:32:39.:32:43.

a scourge in many parts of the world and is particularly bad in Uganda at

:32:44.:32:46.

the moment. They terrible disease that can cost the lives of very

:32:47.:32:51.

young people and blight communities. She makes a very portable point. I

:32:52.:32:55.

know she herself was looking to debate the matter of Uganda in this

:32:56.:33:00.

house. There is a broader debate happening in this house in the near

:33:01.:33:06.

future on the impact of a malaria globally. She makes a good point

:33:07.:33:11.

that the situation in Uganda merits attention in this house, and I hope

:33:12.:33:16.

the fact we are as prominent and international donor of aid as any

:33:17.:33:21.

country in the world, we could do some thing as a nation to help

:33:22.:33:24.

Uganda, a country with which we have historic ties. Could we debate

:33:25.:33:30.

whether Parliament is slipping back into its bad old ways that lead to

:33:31.:33:35.

the expenses scandal? In recent cases involving Malcolm Rifkind,

:33:36.:33:39.

Jack Straw, Tim Yeo, and Lord Ben Carson wrote, we need decisions were

:33:40.:33:47.

made by bodies in this house, but harsh decisions made by independent

:33:48.:33:50.

voices outside, including the courts and Ofcom. The committee

:33:51.:33:57.

adjudicating on Lord Ben, was chaired by Lord Siew, who has his

:33:58.:34:02.

own difficulties now. If we don't look at how one of our bodies who is

:34:03.:34:06.

meant to be a watchdog, is actually toothless Aussie cat, and look at

:34:07.:34:14.

the uselessness of it so, and expensive ornament, isn't there a

:34:15.:34:19.

grave danger we can slip back into new scandals in the future? I think

:34:20.:34:26.

we now have the most regulated system of operation for any

:34:27.:34:31.

Parliament across the whole of Europe, probably. The reality is

:34:32.:34:36.

that there are always cases to be made to improve the situation. I

:34:37.:34:39.

will not discuss individual members here or of the House of Lords, but

:34:40.:34:46.

there are proper processes in the house to make changes and

:34:47.:34:50.

improvements, meticulously through the standards and privileges

:34:51.:34:53.

committee, which has responsibility for the overall approach. This

:34:54.:35:01.

Christmas news headlines were dominated by the floods. We can

:35:02.:35:07.

recognise that. I'm concerned about the number of wildlife that has been

:35:08.:35:13.

lost, including hedgehogs. While Plymouth didn't face the kind of

:35:14.:35:17.

problems that saw the railway line at Dawlish washed away, over the

:35:18.:35:22.

last to make years, in my constituency the walls are falling

:35:23.:35:27.

into the sea. Can we have a statement from the government as to

:35:28.:35:31.

how it is local authorities can make sure they can apply for money in

:35:32.:35:35.

order to deliver and look after their heritage as well. Can I start

:35:36.:35:41.

by saying to my honourable friend that I have seen over Christmas that

:35:42.:35:45.

he has continued his valuable campaign on protecting the hedgehog,

:35:46.:35:48.

and I'm sure we will hear more about that work in the coming months. In

:35:49.:35:53.

terms of the impact of floods, last year it was about the south-west,

:35:54.:35:56.

this year it's about challenges further north. It's important we

:35:57.:36:02.

learn lessons. We have to ensure we make compensation available for

:36:03.:36:06.

communities affected by flooding, and there are various mechanisms and

:36:07.:36:10.

funds available for communities to protect historic buildings and

:36:11.:36:13.

historic sites. There are many of those in his constituency and I will

:36:14.:36:16.

be happy to make sure that the relevant minister talks to him about

:36:17.:36:22.

the options available. The leader will be aware of significant

:36:23.:36:26.

concerns that the UK might be in breach of international law for

:36:27.:36:31.

supplying Saudi Arabia with weapons used in the Yemen. Does the leader

:36:32.:36:38.

have any intelligence about when the arms intelligence select committee

:36:39.:36:40.

will be re-established. We need that select committee looking at the

:36:41.:36:45.

issues and ensuring the UK is not in breach of international law. That

:36:46.:36:51.

committee is effectively a conglomeration of four difference

:36:52.:36:54.

elected committees that can meet whenever. Its decision to meet and

:36:55.:36:59.

not meat is not a matter for the government, it's a matter for the

:37:00.:37:02.

chairs of those committees. There's no reason that can't happen now. I

:37:03.:37:11.

was disturbed last night when I visited a winter night shelter

:37:12.:37:17.

posted by churches across Enfield. I spoke to a man who told me that if

:37:18.:37:21.

it wasn't for the night shelter, he would be travelling around the night

:37:22.:37:26.

buses tonight and in future nights because he himself is either not too

:37:27.:37:30.

young or vulnerable enough to get housing. Can we have a debate which

:37:31.:37:36.

looks at developing a cross departmental strategy for

:37:37.:37:38.

homelessness which will prevent people like him becoming homeless in

:37:39.:37:41.

the future. It should not be tolerated in Britain in 2016. Can I

:37:42.:37:46.

start by commending my honourable friend. He is typical of many people

:37:47.:37:53.

in this house who do unseen and unsung work in the community,

:37:54.:37:57.

visiting shelters, spending nights out with the homeless on the

:37:58.:38:01.

streets. I commend him for what he's doing and bringing this issue to the

:38:02.:38:05.

house. The best solution for homelessness is to have more homes,

:38:06.:38:08.

which is at the centre of which this covenant is doing. -- what this

:38:09.:38:15.

government is doing. We will do what we can to end the blight of

:38:16.:38:21.

homelessness. Can we have a debate on how we improve support and the

:38:22.:38:26.

dignity of people who suffer in continents. Sadly there is a

:38:27.:38:33.

postcode lottery across the UK for access to support and advice on

:38:34.:38:38.

these problems. There is also a problem and how often you can access

:38:39.:38:45.

the problems materials to deal with the problem. 200,000 people were

:38:46.:38:52.

admitted to hospital with your retreat tract infections. If we

:38:53.:39:00.

attack these problems we can do it with dignity and respect and save

:39:01.:39:03.

considerable sums of money. Can we look at this problem across covenant

:39:04.:39:07.

and see how we can begin to tackle it? For those who suffer from the

:39:08.:39:16.

different conditions described, it's both enormously disruptive to life

:39:17.:39:20.

and distressing, but the decisions about these things are devolved, not

:39:21.:39:24.

only with the United Kingdom to different parts of the United

:39:25.:39:27.

Kingdom, but local clinical and commissioning groups who take the

:39:28.:39:30.

decisions about how to operate policies in their local communities.

:39:31.:39:34.

Where there are members who have a situation in their constituency

:39:35.:39:37.

which they think are not right, they need to take those up with the local

:39:38.:39:40.

clinical and commissioning groups and try to get a change of practice

:39:41.:39:44.

in those communities. My constituency in Kettering are

:39:45.:39:49.

outraged that an illegal immigrant from Sudan, who broke into this

:39:50.:39:52.

country by walking through the Channel Tunnel has this week been

:39:53.:39:58.

awarded asylum and allowed to stay here. Not only does this send an

:39:59.:40:03.

appalling signal to the staff at Eurotunnel and our hard-working

:40:04.:40:07.

border staff, both in this country and in France, what's the point in

:40:08.:40:10.

intercepting these people if they are going to be given permission to

:40:11.:40:17.

stay? It gives a green light to illegal immigrant is across the

:40:18.:40:20.

world, that they might as well give it a go, because they might make

:40:21.:40:23.

asylum. Can we have an urgent statement from the Home Office on

:40:24.:40:28.

this matter. I understand the concerns by honourable friend makes.

:40:29.:40:31.

We have Home Office questions on Monday. We are subject to

:40:32.:40:34.

international rules about asylum claims, and the best way of

:40:35.:40:37.

addressing those pressures is to continue the work we are doing to

:40:38.:40:41.

make sure border controls in Calais are secure and I'm grateful for the

:40:42.:40:49.

work the French government has done on this. It's a constant battle for

:40:50.:40:56.

the border forces. Can I congratulate the leader of the house

:40:57.:41:00.

on his bold leadership of the anti-European faction in the

:41:01.:41:03.

government. Has he considered what all this means for the geography of

:41:04.:41:08.

the house? As I understand it, if the Right Honourable member for

:41:09.:41:12.

Leeds Central loyally supports his leader by disagreeing with him

:41:13.:41:15.

again, he will be moved to the backbench. But in leader of the

:41:16.:41:23.

house is summing up, we'll he moved from the dispatch box as to the

:41:24.:41:28.

backs benches? Call me old-fashioned, but could we go back

:41:29.:41:31.

to the previous practice where government ministers not agreeing

:41:32.:41:35.

with the policies of their own government, they just tendered their

:41:36.:41:42.

resignations. If I understand correctly, we are about to move on

:41:43.:41:50.

from the days of call Nick Clegg on LBC, to the days of call Alex

:41:51.:41:55.

Salmond on LBC. When he gets a call from Chris of South London, can he

:41:56.:42:03.

work out whether... North London? I look forward to hearing the

:42:04.:42:07.

programme. I will say that we will all have a lively debate over the

:42:08.:42:10.

next few months. It's right and proper to have the debate as a

:42:11.:42:14.

nation. I have to say to him, on this side of the house we are a

:42:15.:42:18.

united party in government. On that side of hours we have an opposition

:42:19.:42:20.

not to be in opposition. Three quarters of all pensions tax

:42:21.:42:35.

relief goes to those who least needed. Can we have a debate on

:42:36.:42:40.

addressing the situation and proper reform for pensions tax relief so

:42:41.:42:47.

that we can benefit millions of ordinary British workers? The

:42:48.:42:51.

Chancellor of the Exchequer is currently undertaking a review of

:42:52.:42:53.

pension tax relief and we are pension system works. I know he has

:42:54.:42:59.

great expertise in the Celia and I would urge him to discuss his views

:43:00.:43:01.

with the Chancellor and make sure they go into the review. When it

:43:02.:43:09.

comes to discussions of reform, there will be a chance to debate it.

:43:10.:43:21.

Could we have a debate on the use of language in this house and find out

:43:22.:43:26.

what the Prime Minister means when he says he's going to look into

:43:27.:43:29.

something, what ministers mean when they say they will review something

:43:30.:43:33.

and discussion about what is meant when someone asks a question of a

:43:34.:43:38.

wanton answer to that question, not some thing completely unrelated to

:43:39.:43:47.

that question. Nobody this week had accused Labour Party or the lack of

:43:48.:43:55.

plain speaking. Member after member opposite has lined up to say their

:43:56.:44:00.

leader is hopeless. The question is, are reactionary going to do anything

:44:01.:44:09.

about it? And please have a debate on the health benefits of eating

:44:10.:44:17.

black pudding? My right honourable friend will not doubt have seen

:44:18.:44:24.

reports this week that those tasty delicacy is full of protein,

:44:25.:44:29.

potassium, calcium, magnesium, iron and sync, so it is not only good for

:44:30.:44:34.

you, it is actually a superfood and the debate will enable us to make

:44:35.:44:40.

sure the benefits are more widely known. There were distinct nods of

:44:41.:44:55.

approval from the deputy shadow leader but not the same view from

:44:56.:45:04.

the leader. I remember working walking -- walking round market is

:45:05.:45:08.

seeing black puddings and they are tasty too weak perhaps in

:45:09.:45:15.

moderation. Given that 21 members stuck it out and 2:30am yesterday to

:45:16.:45:20.

take part in any debate on the world's on the Welsh language

:45:21.:45:26.

channel and only to receive the most land of brush of this, surely there

:45:27.:45:30.

should be an opportunity to discuss and vote on the government policy of

:45:31.:45:40.

milking the channel to death. Westland was broadcasting is

:45:41.:45:46.

important as any changes brought forward would be a matter for

:45:47.:45:51.

discussion and debate in this house. -- Welsh language broadcasting. I

:45:52.:45:59.

student enquiry into it pump prices and we heard the number of

:46:00.:46:02.

independent petrol retailers is reduced from 14,000 to 8600 in the

:46:03.:46:07.

last decade. They said the automated car washes have been a much-needed

:46:08.:46:14.

source of income for independent petrol retailers, but it is now

:46:15.:46:20.

calculated that 30,000 people are now employed in the hand car washing

:46:21.:46:25.

industry and the petrol retailers Association can't the Treasury could

:46:26.:46:31.

be missing out on ?200 million of tax, and debate on the hand car

:46:32.:46:38.

washing industry, please? There will be an opportunity to raise this at

:46:39.:46:42.

Treasury questions shortly, but the important thing here is not to say,

:46:43.:46:45.

we shouldn't have hand car washing of this country, but to make sure

:46:46.:46:49.

that people doing it and the businesses operating at our

:46:50.:46:54.

operating properly within the tax system and have legitimate right to

:46:55.:46:57.

be doing the work, to make sure they don't hold back any other business.

:46:58.:47:04.

This week, the Department of Justice and the United States filed a civil

:47:05.:47:11.

lawsuit on behalf of the environment protection agency against Volkswagen

:47:12.:47:16.

cars on behalf of the fact that 600,000 engines were basically

:47:17.:47:19.

illegal because of defeat devices. It might of the fact that 30,000

:47:20.:47:26.

people in Britain die from diesel emissions, much of the contribution

:47:27.:47:31.

to those extra emissions from the illegal defeat devices, what legal

:47:32.:47:35.

action or the government take, in line with the Americans, against

:47:36.:47:39.

Volkswagen and can we have an urgent debate on this matter? What VW did

:47:40.:47:51.

was shocking and inappropriate, but prosecution decisions in this

:47:52.:47:53.

country are not a matter for government, they had a matter for

:47:54.:47:58.

the relevant authorities. I'm sure they will note what he has said

:47:59.:48:02.

today, but it would be wrong for politicians to get directly involved

:48:03.:48:07.

in prosecution decisions. Over the Christmas period, I had to

:48:08.:48:10.

constituents, one Muslim and one Jewish, contact me about problems

:48:11.:48:15.

they had with the out of hours coroners service. Pupil of those

:48:16.:48:20.

religions need is death certificate within 24 hours to comply with their

:48:21.:48:24.

religious beliefs and dispose of the body. Can we have administered come

:48:25.:48:28.

and explain to the house how the government is making sure that is

:48:29.:48:31.

professional across the whole of the UK to make sure there is a 24-hour

:48:32.:48:39.

coroners service available to all? I am aware of the issues and

:48:40.:48:45.

challenges we face in north London and the communities who live there.

:48:46.:48:48.

This is an area now subject to review by the Minister of Justice

:48:49.:48:53.

and I would hope they can bring forward ideas to improve the

:48:54.:48:57.

situation. Can we have a debate on government time of the plight of the

:48:58.:49:04.

3000 refugees living in tents near Dunkirk. 90% of people suffering

:49:05.:49:12.

from scabies and 80% suffering from hypothermia. Does the leader of the

:49:13.:49:15.

house think this is a people should live and does he not accept that the

:49:16.:49:20.

UK Government must do more? I have a simple view on this. Firstly, we are

:49:21.:49:24.

providing more support to refugees in and around Syria and any other

:49:25.:49:30.

country except United States. We're taking thousands of refugees into

:49:31.:49:35.

this country to provide the most honourable with the route to skip

:49:36.:49:38.

that environment. But I do not believe you should be able to come

:49:39.:49:42.

through France and just come into United Kingdom. If you are genuine

:49:43.:49:48.

refugee, you are seeking safe haven. France is a safe haven. It is not

:49:49.:49:53.

clear to me why we should throw open borders and allow people to travel

:49:54.:49:59.

to the United Kingdom. Honeypot Lane Forest part of the border between my

:50:00.:50:04.

constituency had a yeast and the honourable member for Brent North.

:50:05.:50:10.

It is also that spider boundary BG Group read in Harrow. Brent Bader

:50:11.:50:16.

has a policy to introduce a barking exclusion zone on honeypot Lane. All

:50:17.:50:20.

the residents on each side have been consulted and objected. On the

:50:21.:50:26.

Harrow size, there has been no consultation other than a tatty

:50:27.:50:31.

notice applied to a lamp post. We have a debate in government time on

:50:32.:50:35.

the implementation of controlled parking zones and the need for

:50:36.:50:40.

public authorities to properly consult people before anything is

:50:41.:50:45.

done. This is a matter of local controversy, maybe one were to

:50:46.:50:48.

members could be working together, but in terms of the overall rules,

:50:49.:50:52.

the practicalities going to have to be dealt with at a local level, but

:50:53.:50:57.

you have the opportunity to argue that the duty of local authority to

:50:58.:51:04.

make people aware of changes could be raised at the next local

:51:05.:51:09.

government debate. On Tuesday, a Foreign Office minister told the

:51:10.:51:11.

house that is no agreement on judicial Corporation between the UK

:51:12.:51:19.

and Saudi governments. The Secretary of State visited Riyadh to sign a

:51:20.:51:24.

memo of understanding on judicial Corporation. The government refused

:51:25.:51:30.

to publish a memorandum, could we have a statement to explain the

:51:31.:51:41.

stark inconsistency? There will be plenty of occasions to challenge

:51:42.:51:53.

that in the coming weeks. Following the recent local government

:51:54.:51:56.

settlement, Lancashire County Council will have 713 million to

:51:57.:52:02.

spend, compared with 704 million this year, yet the Labour run

:52:03.:52:06.

council continue to slash services and waste money, the latest example

:52:07.:52:11.

being spending 6.6 million on consultants to help them identify

:52:12.:52:15.

cuts they can make. In a debate on local government finance to discuss

:52:16.:52:20.

the appalling way some of our local councils are being run. We have a

:52:21.:52:26.

debate coming up on funding for rule all areas. It is quite noticeable at

:52:27.:52:30.

Conservative councils using the challenges real face have risen to

:52:31.:52:36.

the challenge is to deliver high quality services at a lower price of

:52:37.:52:38.

Labour councils are struggling with the money they have got. Driven

:52:39.:52:46.

grouse shoots damage wildlife, increase water pollution, increase

:52:47.:52:51.

greenhouse gas emissions, increase water bills, resulted in the illegal

:52:52.:52:57.

killing of Penn Harriers and shed water off the hillside, causing

:52:58.:52:59.

millions of pounds of damage and floods, such as we have seen in

:53:00.:53:03.

recent weeks. Could we have a debate and vote on whether to abolish

:53:04.:53:11.

driven grouse shoots? We believe we should support our countryside and

:53:12.:53:14.

our country traditions. Those on the other side of the house have no

:53:15.:53:17.

interest in the ruble communities, no interest in the people who live

:53:18.:53:20.

in those communities and every time they go there, they do gym damage to

:53:21.:53:27.

those communities. -- rule all communities. -- rural communities. A

:53:28.:53:42.

student at a Glasgow colleges was removed from the UK, and now his

:53:43.:53:50.

home and those of his relatives have been raided by Pakistan authorities

:53:51.:53:54.

and he finds himself on the run. While the government make a

:53:55.:53:59.

statement or a lover debate on government time and deportation and

:54:00.:54:03.

government removal orders and how we arrange a safe passage back to UK

:54:04.:54:08.

for those people served with those orders? I don't the details of the

:54:09.:54:13.

case, the Home Secretary will be fewer on Monday to answer questions.

:54:14.:54:16.

We have to provide a fair balance in this country be June providing a

:54:17.:54:23.

refuge for people who are genuinely fleeing persecution, but we can't

:54:24.:54:28.

provide an open door for everyone. In the last eight days, we have seen

:54:29.:54:32.

a Chinese government to value its own currency and intervene

:54:33.:54:39.

aggressively on its own manufacturing business. Can we have

:54:40.:54:42.

a statement from the government on why they are supporting Chinese

:54:43.:54:47.

manufacturing, given the amount of steel which is flooding the UK

:54:48.:54:54.

market. We have Treasury questions coming up shortly and the

:54:55.:54:57.

opportunity will be there to question the Chancellor. It is right

:54:58.:55:00.

and proper to maintain close ties with China, which is shaping up to

:55:01.:55:03.

be the world's biggest economy for this century.

:55:04.:55:18.

Many of my constituents have lost Motability vehicles only to have

:55:19.:55:25.

them restored at a later date on subsequent appeal, but causing a

:55:26.:55:29.

huge amount of distress, a real sense of isolation. Motability is an

:55:30.:55:36.

important scheme and indeed, the welfare support we provide to people

:55:37.:55:41.

who face disability challenges is very important, but it is right and

:55:42.:55:44.

proper that we have gateways in place. One of the reasons we change

:55:45.:55:47.

the system was that a large number of people who were receiving at an

:55:48.:56:01.

allowance or not the people who really needed it. In a statement

:56:02.:56:07.

from piling minister and carbon reduction and building regulations,

:56:08.:56:10.

given that it is clear to all but ministers that it is more

:56:11.:56:16.

cost-effective to integrate solar power on buildings at the

:56:17.:56:20.

construction stage, both the Greater London authority and the Scottish

:56:21.:56:24.

Government have improved their building regulations in this

:56:25.:56:27.

respect. Isn't it time that the rest of the United Kingdom followed suit?

:56:28.:56:35.

I think we have a wreckage and government second to none and

:56:36.:56:37.

encouraging the growth of pupils in this country. In the last year, we

:56:38.:56:42.

have seen the level of electricity generated by renewables rise by 25%.

:56:43.:56:49.

But in the end, there has to be a degree of flexibility for builders

:56:50.:56:53.

to decide what products they actually build.

:56:54.:57:05.

During our enquiry, received evidence from industry experts that

:57:06.:57:10.

manufacturers were treating the safety regulations in order to get

:57:11.:57:14.

around them. Is it not the case that we now need a debate in this house

:57:15.:57:18.

on the regulation of cars and other vehicles on the road as far as

:57:19.:57:22.

software that is concerned and cheating devices used for emissions,

:57:23.:57:27.

because the list of countries taking action across the world is getting

:57:28.:57:30.

longer, and the UK Government's silence is getting more definite. --

:57:31.:57:50.

If he feels the need to bring the matter to this house it should talk

:57:51.:57:57.

to the chair of the backbench business committee. If the EU was to

:57:58.:58:05.

confirm the status of coming is China, it would have a detrimental

:58:06.:58:09.

effect on UK steel jobs. Could we have a statement in this house to

:58:10.:58:13.

update us on discussions in Europe on this matter and UK Government

:58:14.:58:17.

position? He will have that opportunity on Tuesday because the

:58:18.:58:22.

Foreign Secretary will take questions and I encourage him to put

:58:23.:58:25.

the point to the Foreign Secretary. We are long overdue a debate on the

:58:26.:58:31.

Parliamentary and health service ombudsman. We have a nonsensical

:58:32.:58:35.

situation where it's supposed to be the ombudsman for Parliament and

:58:36.:58:39.

parliamentarians, but the system can only be changed if the government

:58:40.:58:41.

decides to bring forward legislation. Bollettieri 's in this

:58:42.:58:47.

house must have decisions on where the optimum instruction and

:58:48.:58:53.

ombudsman without fearing interference from government. In

:58:54.:58:59.

maybe the backbench business committee is the right way to test

:59:00.:59:05.

the views of this house and see how the people share his opinions. There

:59:06.:59:08.

is a matter of debate about the future of the ombudsman, how it's

:59:09.:59:11.

structured and how it works. I expect to see it debated in the

:59:12.:59:18.

coming months. We know this house relies on convention and following

:59:19.:59:21.

on from the comments from the Right Honourable friend from Gordon, can I

:59:22.:59:26.

get a statement from the leader of the house to explain his

:59:27.:59:29.

understanding of collective carbon at responsibility, and what has to

:59:30.:59:34.

happen for Cabinet members who disagree with policy and how does

:59:35.:59:39.

that compare with a weak Prime Minister who will allow his

:59:40.:59:42.

ministers to campaign against his own viewpoint? We have a grown-up

:59:43.:59:48.

approach to politics on this side of the house. We will have a great

:59:49.:59:51.

national debate and the primers that has set out his position. Looking at

:59:52.:59:57.

the party opposite, and I don't blame the Scottish Nationalists for

:59:58.:00:01.

this, and they looked at the vote on Syria, a free vote, and those who

:00:02.:00:10.

spoke out against the leader were sacked. We come to the backbench

:00:11.:00:14.

motion on the effect of the equalisation of the state pension

:00:15.:00:20.

age on women. To move the motion, I call Mhairi Black. I beg to move the

:00:21.:00:29.

motion on the order paper. I want to thank the backbench committee for

:00:30.:00:33.

giving us the time to debate this important issue. I especially want

:00:34.:00:40.

to take the time to thank the women of age inequality team. Pensions are

:00:41.:00:46.

obligated, as you can imagine, but these ordinary women have managed to

:00:47.:00:49.

take the time to sift through all this information and have come up

:00:50.:00:53.

and drafted one of the most comprehensive and articulate

:00:54.:00:56.

briefings I have seen since I was elected. I want to thank them for

:00:57.:01:02.

articulating that argument so well. It's precisely because pensions are

:01:03.:01:05.

so, the gated that I think it's important... -- are so complicated.

:01:06.:01:15.

The honourable member makes an important starting statement given

:01:16.:01:18.

the pensions minister has admitted he made a bad decision based on

:01:19.:01:24.

inadequate briefing. Former pensions minister, sorry. Is it not therefore

:01:25.:01:29.

only right that the house considers this decision today and takes it

:01:30.:01:33.

seriously in terms of making the absolute right decision with the

:01:34.:01:38.

right information before it? I think that's why this bait is so important

:01:39.:01:42.

and we should call on the government to act. I think because pensions are

:01:43.:01:48.

so come placated, it's important not just for the benefit of members or

:01:49.:01:53.

people in the gallery of people watching at home, it's important to

:01:54.:01:56.

try to explain why these women have found themselves in a position they

:01:57.:02:00.

have done. To do so we have to go back to 1995 when the pension act

:02:01.:02:04.

increased the female state pension age from 60 to 65. The purpose of

:02:05.:02:10.

this was to equalise the pension age so women were retiring at the same

:02:11.:02:14.

age as men. That's fair enough, it makes sense, and I don't think

:02:15.:02:17.

anyone would disagree with that principle. The Turner commission

:02:18.:02:22.

recommended that the 15 years notice should be given to individuals if

:02:23.:02:25.

their pension arrangements are going to change in order to give them

:02:26.:02:29.

adequate time to respond appropriately. The 1995 act

:02:30.:02:34.

technically didn't do that. Equalisation, the changes were not

:02:35.:02:39.

to be brought in until 2010, and that would technically give women 15

:02:40.:02:43.

years notice, but the problem is, nobody knew about it. The reality is

:02:44.:02:47.

that less than half of women knew this would affect them as late as

:02:48.:02:53.

2008. The National Centre for social research stated that in 2011 only

:02:54.:02:57.

43% of women were aware of the plans change. I'm grateful to the

:02:58.:03:04.

honourable lady for giving way, and she makes an important point about

:03:05.:03:10.

people not being aware. It seems people on the front benches are not

:03:11.:03:13.

aware. There is not an equalities minister here, not even the DWP

:03:14.:03:22.

ministers are here. It's noticeable that it's a pity how few

:03:23.:03:26.

Conservatives have turned out. It's important to highlight that not a

:03:27.:03:29.

single letter was sent out by the government to women. There was no

:03:30.:03:34.

official correspondence between the government and the individuals

:03:35.:03:36.

affected alerting them to the changes that would happen to them.

:03:37.:03:40.

Even previous pensions Minister Steve Webster realised that not

:03:41.:03:46.

everybody knew what had happened in the 1995 act. They freed of

:03:47.:03:57.

information application says that information was disbursed between

:03:58.:04:02.

2009 and 2013, 14 years after the act. Women were not notified by

:04:03.:04:10.

anyone official until 14 years after the regulations came in. 14 years

:04:11.:04:19.

less to prepare. She is making an important point, but isn't the

:04:20.:04:22.

injustice to this set of women, this in a knot shell, they haven't just

:04:23.:04:27.

had one change to the pension age, they've had two and the process has

:04:28.:04:32.

been accelerated and there is no transitional arrangements in place.

:04:33.:04:38.

Isn't that the real unfairness here? To go back to the correspondence

:04:39.:04:44.

between the government... On you go. Thank you for giving way. I have a

:04:45.:04:48.

great deal of sympathy with what she is saying, and would she accept that

:04:49.:04:52.

the need for equalisation is generally accepted, and is right and

:04:53.:04:55.

proper, would she perhaps consider that it would be sensible to urge

:04:56.:05:01.

the government to look at the sort of transition arrangements that were

:05:02.:05:04.

made with public sector pensions reform, where there was some 10-15

:05:05.:05:09.

year arrangements? Would that be instructive going forward? As I said

:05:10.:05:14.

at the beginning, I don't think anybody in here has the problem with

:05:15.:05:18.

the principle of the transition to equality. In this instance we are

:05:19.:05:24.

talking about women's pensions, so it's important to bring it back to

:05:25.:05:29.

that. The fact of the matter is that multiple constituents who have

:05:30.:05:31.

written to me have said that from the letters they did receive, the

:05:32.:05:36.

information was conflicting. They were getting different information.

:05:37.:05:40.

In one case, a constituent of mine had been told they had enough

:05:41.:05:44.

contributions to receive a full date pension at 60, which was only a few

:05:45.:05:48.

months away, only to receive a further letter three weeks later

:05:49.:05:51.

telling her that in actual fact she would not get her pension until she

:05:52.:05:55.

was nearly 66. Many of the letters did not even reach the people they

:05:56.:05:59.

were supposed to. Some were told by MPs and ministers they must have

:06:00.:06:03.

given the DWP the wrong addresses. The reality is that these women have

:06:04.:06:06.

been living in the same house for many years. They have been living in

:06:07.:06:14.

these houses for over 20 years, so I find that difficult to believe. Some

:06:15.:06:18.

people say you shouldn't have to be written to, it's your pension and

:06:19.:06:21.

you should keep an eye on it, look out for the reports and take

:06:22.:06:24.

responsible to. But when giving evidence to the work and pensions

:06:25.:06:28.

committee, a financial journalist told us that after researching this

:06:29.:06:32.

himself, he could barely find any reporting of the issue at all in

:06:33.:06:38.

1995. There were very few small press cuttings in the business pages

:06:39.:06:43.

at the back of some newspapers. Another Freedom of Information Act

:06:44.:06:46.

states that the government funded "Broader awareness campaigns goes

:06:47.:06:51.

good which ran in ways between 2001 and 2004. These campaigns did not

:06:52.:06:59.

focus on equalisation in particular. In fact, one of the press adverts in

:07:00.:07:03.

these campaigns were focused on this issue. One press cutting, roughly

:07:04.:07:08.

seven years after it had been passed into law. The whole thing clearly

:07:09.:07:12.

became a total mess. That's quite evident. I don't know whether it

:07:13.:07:18.

wasn't reported deliberately, for political reasons, fear of

:07:19.:07:21.

ramification. I don't know if it was a genuine accident, I do not know.

:07:22.:07:25.

But I know women were not notified and it wasn't reported and they were

:07:26.:07:29.

not given enough time to make appropriate arrangements. That

:07:30.:07:32.

brings us onto the pension act of 2007. It increased the equalised SBA

:07:33.:07:40.

from 65 to 66 between 2024 and 26, giving all that affected people

:07:41.:07:45.

effectively 17 years notice. That's fair enough, but then we come to

:07:46.:07:51.

what my colleague has mentioned, the pensions act of 2011. That came

:07:52.:07:55.

along and said, forget 17 years notice, we will rush it through. We

:07:56.:08:01.

need to do it now. The 2011 act accelerated pension age for women,

:08:02.:08:06.

the subsequent age increase from six V6 from October 2016 onwards,

:08:07.:08:11.

meaning affected women had only five years notice to remedy life plans

:08:12.:08:18.

that had been in place for years. She's making an excellent speech and

:08:19.:08:21.

I welcome the debate she has brought to the house. Would she agree with

:08:22.:08:26.

me that many of these women, had a lifetime of low and unequal pay to

:08:27.:08:31.

men, lower than they should be getting. They would have had broken

:08:32.:08:35.

careers, because they may have brought up children. They may have

:08:36.:08:40.

separated, got divorced, and the whole life plan has been disrupted,

:08:41.:08:43.

destroyed and impoverished by these awful changes. I couldn't agree more

:08:44.:08:49.

with what the honourable gentleman said, something I will touch on

:08:50.:08:53.

later. Referring back to the 2011 act, it made women have to wait an

:08:54.:08:58.

extra year or year and a half to claim a state pension. We have to

:08:59.:09:01.

remember and take it in the context that women did not know about the

:09:02.:09:06.

initial 1995 act. We have a situation where a whole host of

:09:07.:09:11.

women read about the 2011 act, thought they would have to do work

:09:12.:09:15.

extra two years, make the plans, and then figure out, I working to line

:09:16.:09:19.

six D6. Where did that come from? A host of women have been given a

:09:20.:09:25.

double whammy. -- have to work until I'm 66. The Conservative ethos is to

:09:26.:09:32.

encourage independence and responsible choice, but how can that

:09:33.:09:36.

happen if you don't give people the time to make responsible choices? By

:09:37.:09:44.

continuing this policy... Hold on a second... No, I'm right! The

:09:45.:09:52.

government is to liberally placing another burden on women who have

:09:53.:09:56.

orally had to deal with the consequences of an act passed 21

:09:57.:09:59.

years ago they have only found out about now. To put that in context,

:10:00.:10:06.

I'm 21, this is how old it is. One of my constituents told me she began

:10:07.:10:10.

working at 17, and she chose to pay the full rate of national insurance

:10:11.:10:14.

on the basis she would retire at 60. Other options were available to her,

:10:15.:10:19.

but you said you wanted to retire at 60, so she paid the price through

:10:20.:10:22.

national insurance her whole working life. She put it in a way that I

:10:23.:10:26.

think is good and accurate to describe what is happening, because

:10:27.:10:30.

she's found out she is not retiring until six D6. He says the coalition

:10:31.:10:34.

and this present government have stripped as Oz of pensions --

:10:35.:10:46.

stripped us of pensions. Pensions are not a benefit, they are a

:10:47.:10:50.

contract. People enter into them, on the basis that if they pay extra

:10:51.:10:53.

amount of national insurance, they will receive why at a certain age.

:10:54.:11:02.

Is this same case as my constituent who at 57 and a half realised she

:11:03.:11:08.

would no longer be able to retire at 60. She's a care worker doing an

:11:09.:11:11.

extremely physically demanding job, and now has to work until the age of

:11:12.:11:16.

66. She has low income throughout life, working as a care worker, and

:11:17.:11:20.

now has to carry on this demanding job for a further six years. I think

:11:21.:11:27.

every member in here, if they got in contact with their constituents

:11:28.:11:30.

would recognise this is a problem that spreads across the whole of the

:11:31.:11:34.

UK and affects women of all classes, backgrounds and jobs. In criminal

:11:35.:11:40.

law, if we want to send a prisoner to jail, it has to be agreed

:11:41.:11:45.

beforehand how long that person is going away for. If that changes,

:11:46.:11:49.

there are appropriate measures to deal with that. In civil law, if we

:11:50.:11:53.

enter into a contract, there are terms and conditions that say if you

:11:54.:11:56.

want to change the contract, break out of it, there is a price to pay.

:11:57.:11:59.

Why pensions any different? deafening this is a contract people

:12:00.:12:09.

have entered into and it is now being broken. These women have done

:12:10.:12:14.

exactly what was asked of them. They have worked hard all their lives, a

:12:15.:12:20.

bigger national insurance. If the government chooses to continue with

:12:21.:12:26.

this policy, it completely ignores the years of genuine inequality

:12:27.:12:30.

these women have lived through. Another constituent of mine explains

:12:31.:12:34.

she worked until her children came along. A husband could no longer

:12:35.:12:37.

work due to disability. She was determined not to depend on the

:12:38.:12:43.

benefits, so she studied, she became a primary school teacher. She cured

:12:44.:12:49.

her husband and she has never claimed anything, but she has based

:12:50.:12:53.

whole carb ones around a retirement age of 60. She has now found out she

:12:54.:13:00.

cannot retire until she was 66. Unpaid carers are the unsung heroes

:13:01.:13:05.

of our economy. They have saved the state and absolute fortune, time and

:13:06.:13:10.

time again. Sadly, we come from a society where women have had to live

:13:11.:13:16.

with gender roles where the vast majority of unpaid carers are women.

:13:17.:13:21.

That is a type of people this policy is hitting. It's hitting the kind of

:13:22.:13:25.

people who can't afford to go six years without any care or attention.

:13:26.:13:30.

Some women are being left penniless. They have nothing and I been forced

:13:31.:13:34.

to turn to the state for benefits. How does that fit into the logic of

:13:35.:13:41.

reducing public spending? The government will see that women will

:13:42.:13:44.

do better under the new single tier state pension, but we have the

:13:45.:13:49.

existence of a campaign, a collection against you inequality of

:13:50.:13:56.

the state pension. This is a collection of women pointing out

:13:57.:13:59.

another issue, which is you only receive the higher rate of the new

:14:00.:14:04.

pension if you have paid 35 years of national insurance. Many women

:14:05.:14:08.

haven't had the chance to build up that level. It is a separate issue,

:14:09.:14:14.

but I made it to raise awareness and in the hope that it will earn a

:14:15.:14:18.

debate in its own merit. The government has said the policy

:14:19.:14:21.

decision to increase women's state pension age is designed to remove

:14:22.:14:25.

the inequality between men and women. That is a strange definition

:14:26.:14:33.

of equality, if I being shafted and short-changed because of the fact

:14:34.:14:40.

that I am a woman. That's not my definition of equality. There are

:14:41.:14:45.

two problems at the heart of this. First is that the communication that

:14:46.:14:51.

has happened throughout the years. I accept that mistakes have been made

:14:52.:14:56.

and we need to make sure they are not repeated. But in the 2011 act,

:14:57.:15:02.

the rapid changes this government have made, that is something we can

:15:03.:15:07.

do something about. Unlike most things come from this government, I

:15:08.:15:12.

don't believe this policy is vindictive, I don't believe it's

:15:13.:15:14.

done in the knowledge that it will hurt people, I genuinely think we

:15:15.:15:20.

ended up in the situation because of mistake after mistake and we found

:15:21.:15:25.

ourselves in this position. Any mess can be cleared up. This policy does

:15:26.:15:29.

continue in the full knowledge of everything that has been outlined,

:15:30.:15:34.

then it will become vindictive. It will become deliberate and it will

:15:35.:15:37.

be done in full knowledge that people will be heart. I understand

:15:38.:15:42.

that we have to work in tandem and work with responsibility when it

:15:43.:15:46.

comes to the economy, but not by punishing people who are about to

:15:47.:15:51.

retire. Every topic we speak about comes down to where will you find

:15:52.:15:55.

the money, and the answer is or was austerity, now matter how brittle.

:15:56.:16:00.

Since I was elected, we have had a go at people on low wages, ago at

:16:01.:16:04.

the disabled, we have had a go at women, now were having a go at

:16:05.:16:10.

pensioners. We can afford to send it strikes into Syria, we can afford to

:16:11.:16:14.

pay for nuclear weapons, but we can't afford to look after our

:16:15.:16:19.

pensioners? I just don't buy it. Women who are setting up a Nat

:16:20.:16:23.

Gallery right now, they did not cause the financial crash, they did

:16:24.:16:28.

not cause the state of the economy and they did not make the

:16:29.:16:31.

irresponsible decisions that have got us here. I fully understand the

:16:32.:16:35.

question, where will you find the money, but I refuse to accept

:16:36.:16:39.

believe that it has become out of the pensions of older women. The

:16:40.:16:49.

question is as on the order paper, there will be a six minute limit on

:16:50.:16:58.

each backbench speech. Can I congratulate her work leading on

:16:59.:17:02.

this debate today? There is an extraordinary turnout and it shows

:17:03.:17:06.

what a considerable interest that is for all members of this house. I

:17:07.:17:12.

became involved in this campaign by accident. I was approached by

:17:13.:17:16.

several constituents, who said they were going to be disadvantaged by

:17:17.:17:20.

this. None of us really realise the extent of the hundreds of thousands

:17:21.:17:26.

of women who stand to be treated disproportionately unfurling. I went

:17:27.:17:31.

along to the Westminster Hall debate led by Lady Eccles. I expressed my

:17:32.:17:36.

sympathies and I recorded a short podcast on the subject, which has

:17:37.:17:44.

now been followed by 145,000 people, many of whom have written to me

:17:45.:17:50.

about it. I will be judged it to the campaign, who have articulated the

:17:51.:17:54.

case so well, the petition has now been signed by 103,000 people, and

:17:55.:17:59.

to thank them for the help and support they have given me in

:18:00.:18:03.

selling non-constituents to write to the lawn MPs, rather than writing to

:18:04.:18:06.

me, for which I am exceedingly grateful. With the equalisation of

:18:07.:18:12.

the pension age, we all agree with that, but then are large sums of

:18:13.:18:15.

money involved in this sand that are difficult decisions that have to be

:18:16.:18:20.

made. But it is important that the role of fairness is applied as much

:18:21.:18:23.

as possible and it is clear that a sizeable group of women seem to be

:18:24.:18:28.

wearing the brunt of these changes disproportionately. He is making an

:18:29.:18:39.

important speech. I would ask him, when he is talking about fairness,

:18:40.:18:45.

if he realises how this feels, the woman of my generation who all

:18:46.:18:48.

everything to those women who were born in the 50s, who fought for the

:18:49.:18:53.

equal pay act and for all the advantages that have given us any

:18:54.:18:58.

chance. Does he feel that I'm fairness to those women as I do? I

:18:59.:19:02.

have had representations from constituents who women low paid jobs

:19:03.:19:08.

with huge caring responsibilities for children and other family

:19:09.:19:12.

members, where they didn't have access to free childcare and other

:19:13.:19:16.

things, and we have them to thank for that, yet it is those people,

:19:17.:19:19.

for whom I think there has now been a breach of trust with those changes

:19:20.:19:25.

affecting them disproportionately. I don't think we will be fulfilling

:19:26.:19:31.

our duty of care for them. I very much agree with everything he's

:19:32.:19:36.

saying. But he also concede that the other pension forms, we were anxious

:19:37.:19:41.

to make sure there was protection for those unable to choose

:19:42.:19:47.

circumstances, and Beth operates unfairly on people who have worked

:19:48.:19:53.

all their lives but are unable to return to work because of medical

:19:54.:19:57.

conditions. Satisfy fairness these to be applied to everybody and in

:19:58.:20:00.

this case, there is a core water women who are not being treated

:20:01.:20:06.

fairly. Our pension system is funded on the contributory principle, this

:20:07.:20:13.

is not a state benefit for which no contribution is involved. Yet, this

:20:14.:20:17.

group of women who have been paying contributions in good faith, face

:20:18.:20:22.

being short-changed retrospectively. That many other factors be a

:20:23.:20:27.

reminder. Fewer than one in four women who qualify for the state

:20:28.:20:31.

pension next year will get the full amount. Fuel women than men will

:20:32.:20:38.

qualify. Women are significantly more likely to work part-time and

:20:39.:20:42.

for long periods of lives, largely driven by caring roles, they're

:20:43.:20:49.

there for ten to have less tension. I welcome the fact that the new

:20:50.:20:53.

single tier pension will recognise periods of time spent caring and

:20:54.:20:59.

that will help in the future. I acknowledge the government made

:21:00.:21:02.

progress in shrinking the gender pay gap, and that is no consultation on

:21:03.:21:07.

this. Progress has been made, with more women in work. There have been

:21:08.:21:14.

lots of generous reforms about entitlement to childcare and the

:21:15.:21:18.

National living wage. But these are all too late for the generation of

:21:19.:21:23.

women who worked without those advantages and bringing up their

:21:24.:21:30.

families. Many of them now have appealing responsibilities were

:21:31.:21:31.

grandchildren as well as having to hold down part-time jobs. I would

:21:32.:21:39.

give way now, because of our so many people who want to speak. It is

:21:40.:21:43.

right that the rise in pension age should reflect growing life

:21:44.:21:45.

expectancy, but studies show that life expectancy for women fell in

:21:46.:21:54.

2012, while the usual men continue to rise. There are discrepancies for

:21:55.:22:00.

those who are the Buddhist and society. They're the ones most

:22:01.:22:05.

reliable on the state pension and therefore most vulnerable to pension

:22:06.:22:16.

changes. Where they given proper and adequate notice? We all agree that

:22:17.:22:20.

didn't happen. The money expert Paul Lewis, who has helped this campaign,

:22:21.:22:26.

has detailed how little noticed someone and received. Approximately

:22:27.:22:32.

650,000 worst affected were only listened to in February 2012, which

:22:33.:22:37.

means they got the letters between the ages of 57 and 59 that there

:22:38.:22:43.

pension age would not be 60. Some received no notification at all.

:22:44.:22:49.

Precious little time to make alternative arrangements, even if

:22:50.:22:51.

they could afford to. That didn't happen now, because of changes to

:22:52.:22:59.

the state pension review. But as one of my constituents pointed out, a

:23:00.:23:06.

very important point is that if one considers what if ten or 15 years

:23:07.:23:10.

notice had been given, for women like ourselves who are low earners,

:23:11.:23:16.

they would not have had enough to pay into private pension on top of

:23:17.:23:20.

their contributions to national insurance. But this in perspective.

:23:21.:23:25.

In order to save enough into private pension for ?6,000 a year, you're

:23:26.:23:32.

looking at ?100,000. This is why, for low-paid people, the national

:23:33.:23:35.

insurance contributions are all the can afford and consequently totally

:23:36.:23:41.

depend on. So ten years notice is not enough time to pay enterprise at

:23:42.:23:44.

pension that the diesel the state pension. What she suggests is the

:23:45.:23:48.

reintroduction of pension credits, which is means tested and would

:23:49.:23:52.

alleviate the strain for those who find themselves in this position.

:23:53.:23:57.

This would let those who are genuinely hit the hardest out of

:23:58.:24:01.

extreme poverty. That is a consideration I would ask the

:24:02.:24:09.

Minister to consider. It's difficult for many older women to stay in the

:24:10.:24:15.

workplace back into the workplace. In any case, rates for unemployment

:24:16.:24:21.

for women over 50 are well above the national average. The gender pay gap

:24:22.:24:25.

is at its worst for women in their 50s, exactly the sort of women we're

:24:26.:24:30.

talking about here. Recent comments from Steve Webb strongly indicate he

:24:31.:24:35.

acknowledged the DWP were at fault and failing to provide adequate

:24:36.:24:40.

notice of women affected, when he made a fuss of negotiating a

:24:41.:24:43.

concession of six months at the time, and that has been compounded

:24:44.:24:48.

by his comments that the government made a fair decision. During

:24:49.:24:51.

previous debates, when the last changes were made, the Minister

:24:52.:24:55.

gives strong indications then that transition arrangement would be made

:24:56.:24:58.

for the worst affected, yet that has not happened. Why not and can the

:24:59.:25:03.

Minister please revisit that undertaking? I received many e-mails

:25:04.:25:09.

from around the country and from my own constituents. Let me finish with

:25:10.:25:16.

the closing paragraph of a letter from a woman in Worthing. I also

:25:17.:25:21.

heard some MPs say that older women should downsize their houses to free

:25:22.:25:27.

opposing stock for younger families. I did this, but we are quickly using

:25:28.:25:32.

up any money we made for normal day-to-day expenses. It seems that

:25:33.:25:36.

we all do women are considered unimportant and not worth the

:25:37.:25:38.

financial support we have earned over the years. I believe we had at

:25:39.:25:43.

risk of a breach of trust to those women who have made many sacrifices

:25:44.:25:46.

and are not getting the retirement the domains they would. -- the

:25:47.:25:57.

retirement they believed they would. Could I join in congratulating the

:25:58.:26:04.

Honourable lady first of all for securing this important debate and

:26:05.:26:08.

secondly by the forceful way in which she put the case, and she was

:26:09.:26:14.

indeed backed up by the speech of the honourable gentleman from East

:26:15.:26:20.

Worthing and Shoreham. I just want to make two points by way of

:26:21.:26:29.

introduction. The first is to also congratulate Women Against State

:26:30.:26:35.

Pension Inequality for the powerful way they have booked this case and

:26:36.:26:39.

conducted their campaign. Secondly, I want to say there is a basic and

:26:40.:26:45.

fairness about this problem that does need to be addressed. Into the

:26:46.:26:55.

bargain, there is a broken promise or a broken contract, as she

:26:56.:27:00.

described it, between the state and these women, who are affected.

:27:01.:27:14.

I have a letter from a constituent, and I would like to use her words as

:27:15.:27:23.

much as possible, somebody who has been directly affected by it. The

:27:24.:27:29.

point she makes of have already been reflected by the speeches so far but

:27:30.:27:33.

they bear repetition in her words. The first point she makes was that

:27:34.:27:39.

she was given inadequate notice and communication regarding the age

:27:40.:27:44.

change. She received less than four years, instead of the recommended

:27:45.:27:49.

10-15 years. This has had a disastrous consequence on the

:27:50.:27:51.

important financial and life changing decisions I made in

:27:52.:27:56.

anticipation of my retirement at 60 and the receipt of a state pension.

:27:57.:28:05.

I will give way, yes. I'm sure, like me, he's had a number of women make

:28:06.:28:09.

representation to him, and one particular case I had on Monday

:28:10.:28:14.

changed her life for the worse. This is discrimination against women.

:28:15.:28:20.

Would you agree? I was going to come onto that very point. The second

:28:21.:28:27.

point she makes is that she was hit by two pension age increases. First

:28:28.:28:32.

to six D5, and in rapid succession, to 66, resulting in the loss of over

:28:33.:28:45.

?35,000. -- first to 65. The final point she wanted to make, she's no

:28:46.:28:50.

longer eligible to receive the old state pension into which she paid

:28:51.:28:53.

full contributions for than 40 years. She will not receive a full

:28:54.:29:01.

state pension because of the shortfall of contributions between

:29:02.:29:07.

60 and 66. The fact that she wanted to retire at 60, she had paid more

:29:08.:29:11.

than 39 years of contributions required for the full state pension

:29:12.:29:18.

at that time. I will give way to the Right Honourable gentleman. This is

:29:19.:29:24.

a crucial debate, not least of all for my constituents, Jackie Williams

:29:25.:29:28.

and Debbie Watkins, active in the campaign. My right honourable friend

:29:29.:29:33.

might be pleased to know that the minister responsible for this issue

:29:34.:29:36.

says the reason she can't carry out the terms of this motion is because

:29:37.:29:43.

it would be impossible. She was a very effective advocate of pensions

:29:44.:29:50.

issues when I was the Work and Pensions Secretary. When we were

:29:51.:29:54.

arguing that pension credit and the protection fund we had introduced

:29:55.:29:59.

should not be applied retrospectively, as she wished, I

:30:00.:30:02.

said it was impossible. She said to me that that word didn't... Order,

:30:03.:30:14.

Mr Johnson, we are in a very tight time limit. Short interventions so

:30:15.:30:23.

nobody drops off the list. My right honourable friend brings a wealth of

:30:24.:30:28.

experience and understanding in this subject in the contribution he has

:30:29.:30:31.

just made, and I'm very rate fall for it, lengthy though it may have

:30:32.:30:42.

been. -- very grateful for it. If I can continue the quote I was midway

:30:43.:30:48.

through from my constituent, she goes on to say that this requirement

:30:49.:30:53.

has been reduced to 30 years, to be faced with an overpayment in the

:30:54.:30:59.

old-age pension requirements of ten years contributions which are no

:31:00.:31:01.

longer eligible for, to have a shortfall of six years on the new

:31:02.:31:07.

pension requirements is beyond belief. I want to conclude with two

:31:08.:31:16.

further points. The first is to quote from my constituent, who says

:31:17.:31:21.

that... And I think this is why the campaign has been so reasonable, and

:31:22.:31:27.

she reflects that. She says, I understand that the equalisation of

:31:28.:31:30.

state pension had to be addressed, but I object to the fairway in which

:31:31.:31:39.

this was handled, bringing more inequality into the process. Future

:31:40.:31:43.

generations will be given ten years notice on age changes. Whereas I and

:31:44.:31:47.

many like me were not. All I'm requesting, she says, is

:31:48.:31:53.

transitional protective arrangement be provided for the 1950s women

:31:54.:32:00.

affected by these changes. Of course, every government has to look

:32:01.:32:04.

to the financial situation and make proper arrangements and I understand

:32:05.:32:09.

the economic difficulties any government has to face. But, as I

:32:10.:32:17.

started out to say, this is... I can't give way any more, but this is

:32:18.:32:22.

a basic question of, firstly inequality, and secondly,

:32:23.:32:28.

unfairness. I think this has to be addressed. I do hope the minister

:32:29.:32:32.

will understand the strength of feeling that exists out there from

:32:33.:32:36.

those affected, but also in this house. We feel there is an

:32:37.:32:41.

injustice, and all injustices have to be put right, just as this should

:32:42.:32:49.

be. I would like to join as well with the honourable member for

:32:50.:32:52.

Knowsley, a great pleasure to follow him in this debate. And plays the

:32:53.:32:59.

reasonableness of the campaign. I've had several campaigners in my

:33:00.:33:03.

constituency offices, and they put their arguments in a very cogent,

:33:04.:33:07.

respectful and thoughtful manner. Since 2010 this government has been

:33:08.:33:11.

taking the difficult decisions necessary to get Britain's deficit

:33:12.:33:14.

under control. This has often been contentious, involving disagreements

:33:15.:33:19.

with the party opposite. However, pensions have been one area in which

:33:20.:33:28.

all members of the house were in agreement over. For more than a

:33:29.:33:32.

decade, MPs of all parties have worked together to challenge the

:33:33.:33:37.

problems posed by an ageing population, and ensure the long-term

:33:38.:33:40.

financial security of elderly people. This consensual politics,

:33:41.:33:46.

quite unusual, I have to say, has been necessary and heartening in

:33:47.:33:49.

dealing with a long-term issue. It's no secret that the current pension

:33:50.:33:55.

state arrangements are not financially sustainable. People are

:33:56.:33:59.

living longer than ever. A teenager today can expect to live until 90.

:34:00.:34:06.

It imposes serious burdens on welfare system is designed in

:34:07.:34:09.

another age. In the last parliament the government estimated the cost of

:34:10.:34:13.

abandoning state pension reforms is completely unaffordable at ?23

:34:14.:34:19.

billion. Equivalent to 7p on income tax. As much as this debate focuses

:34:20.:34:25.

on the impact on women, we should reflect on how much this government

:34:26.:34:28.

has done to improve the position of women within the pension system. I

:34:29.:34:34.

will give way. Before the honourable gentleman says it's OK, would he

:34:35.:34:40.

like to hear the experience of my constituent who says, I have worked

:34:41.:34:44.

full time since leaving school at 16. I now 61. I have worked through

:34:45.:34:50.

10-year is of kidney failure, dialysis, and finally a transplant,

:34:51.:34:54.

but the effects of the illness have taken their toll. I cannot afford to

:34:55.:34:58.

retire without a state pension, so I have another five years of my

:34:59.:35:03.

current life to look forward to, assuming my kidney doesn't fail or I

:35:04.:35:07.

die of something else. Surely that level of hardship is unacceptable. I

:35:08.:35:13.

feel you are putting words in my mouth by saying that I said

:35:14.:35:16.

everything is OK. But you were a member of the party opposite in

:35:17.:35:21.

government from 1997 to 2010, and if there is anything about them in

:35:22.:35:26.

terms of publicising these particular changes, I think they

:35:27.:35:29.

ought to look to themselves in this respect. In a motion before this

:35:30.:35:35.

house, it regrets that the government has failed to address a

:35:36.:35:39.

lifetime of low pay and inequality faced by many women. I do not

:35:40.:35:44.

recognise this. Take two central planks of this government policy.

:35:45.:35:51.

Raising personal allowances and equating the minimum wage to the

:35:52.:35:55.

living wage. Both of these initiatives benefit tremendously. In

:35:56.:35:59.

addition the present government is looking at options to reform

:36:00.:36:03.

pensions tax relief, which was left in the same situation by the party

:36:04.:36:12.

opposite. Following the budget, research carried out by the House of

:36:13.:36:16.

Commons library show that as a result of the Chancellor's measures,

:36:17.:36:21.

women would be twice, if not more likely, to be hit by men as a result

:36:22.:36:29.

of these measures. If the disproportionate way in which women

:36:30.:36:34.

have been affected by this, it will be added to a list of ways in which

:36:35.:36:39.

the women of this country have been failed by this government. I don't

:36:40.:36:44.

agree with that whatsoever. The raising of personal allowance

:36:45.:36:47.

combined with the raised in minimum wage will give a huge boost to

:36:48.:36:51.

British workers and women in this country. I think you should

:36:52.:36:56.

recognise that fact. In addition of the government is looking at options

:36:57.:37:00.

to reform pensions tax relief. If ministers choose the option that I

:37:01.:37:04.

and others are calling for, and dispense with the top rate of tax

:37:05.:37:08.

leaf, and moved to a single rate of relief, somewhere around 30p in the

:37:09.:37:13.

pound, this would hugely advantage women in the workforce, a game

:37:14.:37:17.

changer for millions of hard-working British women. Equalising the

:37:18.:37:24.

pensions age may pose short-term challenges, but it's an overdue

:37:25.:37:26.

acknowledgement of the role women play in the modern workforce. It's

:37:27.:37:31.

quite wrongful women to structured the pension system around the

:37:32.:37:34.

assumption that women's careers... I will give way. You raise an

:37:35.:37:40.

important point about women in the workforce. Evidence that women

:37:41.:37:43.

directly affected by the state pension age equalisation have

:37:44.:37:46.

increased employment rate by 6.8%, increasing it up to 40.7% according

:37:47.:37:52.

to the Department for Work and Pensions in November last year.

:37:53.:37:56.

Older working age women are now more likely to be in employment than at

:37:57.:38:03.

any time in the past 30 years. Thank you for making that point. To add to

:38:04.:38:07.

that point, the fact is that many people actually come to retirement

:38:08.:38:11.

age and it's before they collect their state pension in that regard,

:38:12.:38:17.

but what we need to do is encourage older people to be involved in the

:38:18.:38:21.

workforce as well. I can't give way any more. It's one of the most

:38:22.:38:26.

encouraging thing is we've seen from this government, the fact people

:38:27.:38:31.

asked Ainge in work for longer. -- people are staying in work for

:38:32.:38:41.

longer. We are also enacting important forms of the period.

:38:42.:38:45.

Somebody has to pay National Insurance before qualifying for

:38:46.:38:49.

state pension. Until recently this tour that 39 years for women and 44

:38:50.:38:55.

for men, the worst of both worlds, structurally unequal while at the

:38:56.:38:58.

same time long enough to penalised women who had taken time out to have

:38:59.:38:59.

children. Moreover, by bringing contribute and

:39:00.:39:14.

time periods down to the same level, the government has recognised that

:39:15.:39:19.

many men may also desire a different work-life balance than was a

:39:20.:39:24.

traditional case in the past. I'm not in the habit of quoting the

:39:25.:39:27.

Liberal Democrats, but I will make an exception in this instance over

:39:28.:39:31.

the government decision to defer state pension age to 66, while in

:39:32.:39:36.

office, a cost of ?1.1 billion, Steve Webb, former pensions

:39:37.:39:40.

minister, put it as a billion quid being a serious amount of money.

:39:41.:39:42.

This decision means that almost a quarter of a million women who face

:39:43.:39:47.

an increase in 18 months or more in their pension age no longer face

:39:48.:39:52.

that possibility. We have also instituted the triple lock, which

:39:53.:39:56.

ensures that pensions are increased by the highest of three measures,

:39:57.:40:01.

price inflation, growth in earnings, or 2.5%. This means no more of this

:40:02.:40:12.

sort of small bag of peanuts increase we saw under the

:40:13.:40:18.

opposition. We in Britain are rightly proud of the care we take of

:40:19.:40:23.

our elderly citizens. This is shown by a marked reduction in the levels

:40:24.:40:26.

of pension and poverty in the previous two decades. It would be

:40:27.:40:32.

wrong to take serious risks with long-term economic sustainability

:40:33.:40:35.

and our pension system for the sake of winning short-term political

:40:36.:40:42.

battles. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I congratulate the

:40:43.:40:47.

honourable member of Paisley and Renfrewshire south for her speech.

:40:48.:40:56.

I'm heartened to see support from the front bench colleagues including

:40:57.:41:03.

my neighbour, the Right Honourable member for Leigh, Newcastle North,

:41:04.:41:08.

and Stretford End Urmston. All of whom I know strongly support this

:41:09.:41:13.

campaign and the women affected by it. Can I congratulate the women

:41:14.:41:19.

against the state pension equality campaign who have worked tirelessly

:41:20.:41:25.

on this issue. They have now gained 107,000 signatures, possibly more

:41:26.:41:32.

since this debate started. The increases made since 1995 have had a

:41:33.:41:37.

proportionate impact on 1950s born women, and may have received little

:41:38.:41:40.

or no notification of the changes. Despite the government saying they

:41:41.:41:44.

should have at least ten years notice, indeed financial journalist

:41:45.:41:47.

Paul Lewis found that none of the 1950s born women had been given ten

:41:48.:41:50.

years notice, and in a worst case, and we have heard one of them from

:41:51.:41:56.

my honourable women were told at 57 and a half that their pension age

:41:57.:42:00.

would rise to 626. Women expecting to retire at 60 now have no job, no

:42:01.:42:08.

pension and no money to live on. Former pensions Minister Steve Webb

:42:09.:42:11.

admitted the government made a bad decision on these changes and his

:42:12.:42:14.

excuse was that ministers had not been properly briefed. It appears

:42:15.:42:19.

civil servants did a poor job on the legislation. Astonishingly the

:42:20.:42:23.

impact assessment for the 2011 pensions act says this in its

:42:24.:42:27.

conclusion... Overall, based on the available evidence, the change to

:42:28.:42:30.

the previous timetable will not have a disproportionate effect on any

:42:31.:42:32.

group compare to another. It should be a message to the

:42:33.:42:43.

Government that people want action on this. Would she agree with my

:42:44.:42:48.

efficient Linda Gregory who has worked since 15. So it has been more

:42:49.:42:53.

penalised than people entering the workplace than normal standards now.

:42:54.:42:57.

I thank my honourable friend for that. It seems unbelievable that

:42:58.:43:02.

civil servants could believe taking billions away from a particular

:43:03.:43:06.

group, adding years to their pit pension age and not informing them

:43:07.:43:11.

in good time would not have a disproportionate impact on that

:43:12.:43:16.

group. I raise these concerns brought to me by the class of 1970

:43:17.:43:21.

in the second reading debate, to which, when I raised the concerns,

:43:22.:43:26.

the Secretary of State at that point said he had had letter from the

:43:27.:43:29.

public stirred up by a number of people. Does she agree with me this

:43:30.:43:33.

is not a matter stirred up by a number of people, this is a very

:43:34.:43:37.

real matter that we have known about for some time? I do agree with my

:43:38.:43:41.

honourable friend. I thank him for the work he's done on this since the

:43:42.:43:47.

second reading. These changes are having a disproportionate affect.

:43:48.:43:53.

Many have health problems which stop them working. Others have given up

:43:54.:43:57.

work to care. I have a constituent affected by these changes who has

:43:58.:44:01.

worked for more than 44 years and raised two children, suffered from s

:44:02.:44:09.

osteoarthritis. She had to attend the Jobcentre who told her she was

:44:10.:44:14.

entitled to six months job seeker's allowance. She said, I must watch my

:44:15.:44:21.

savings dwindle on living costs. I wish I had not been frugal all my

:44:22.:44:26.

life, by the time I get my pension I will be broke or dead. I am thankful

:44:27.:44:32.

for my honourable friend giving way and for the sterling work. Does she

:44:33.:44:36.

agree with me there is a particular problem for those whim had in places

:44:37.:44:40.

like Blackpool only been able to work part-time for a long period of

:44:41.:44:44.

time. Nevertheless have to take on some of the carer and other issues

:44:45.:44:50.

that people have described? Before the 1995 pension act changes the

:44:51.:44:54.

independent advisory committee said, savings made on raising the state

:44:55.:44:59.

pension age should be spent on the most vulnerable group, with help for

:45:00.:45:03.

low-paid women, women returning to work and carers. This advise was not

:45:04.:45:08.

followed. Recently a court in the Netherlands ruled that raising the

:45:09.:45:11.

age could be a breach of the human rights. A woman in her 60s appealed

:45:12.:45:16.

against a two-year rise in her pension age, as creating an

:45:17.:45:19.

individual and excessive burden on her. The court found in her favour.

:45:20.:45:25.

It is welcome that some members opposite, who voted for the

:45:26.:45:29.

acceleration of the state pension age in 2011 are now supporting the

:45:30.:45:35.

campaign. I know other members opposite are blaming European

:45:36.:45:39.

legislation for which I feel is shabby treatment of the 1950s born

:45:40.:45:47.

women. When the Justice Minister answered he said that equalisation

:45:48.:45:52.

was necessary to meet obligations under EU law. The same point has

:45:53.:45:59.

been made to campaigners in reply from Conservative MPs. Research done

:46:00.:46:02.

by the House of Commons Library and my own research shows this is not

:46:03.:46:06.

the case. EU law allows countries to have

:46:07.:46:12.

differences in state pension age. It allows lengthy transitional

:46:13.:46:15.

arrangements to be made. The library research notes that directive 77

:46:16.:46:20.

EEC, requires the progressive implementation of the principal of

:46:21.:46:25.

equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security. On that

:46:26.:46:30.

point, she's making an excellent point about the fact that we need to

:46:31.:46:34.

reach a level of equality in this issue. She is right, it is about the

:46:35.:46:39.

pace of change and transitions which are unfair. Does she not agree that

:46:40.:46:46.

the continual changing of the goal post goes against the justice this

:46:47.:46:50.

country should be based on? And this background of EU law does not really

:46:51.:46:55.

cause this. The directive allowed for different state pension ages.

:46:56.:47:00.

Article 7 states that the determination of the age is the

:47:01.:47:05.

right of member-states. And 2007 European Commission report confirmed

:47:06.:47:08.

different state pension ages are allowed. Equalisation is therefore

:47:09.:47:13.

described as an objective to be strived for. The Netherlands,

:47:14.:47:16.

Portugal and France have no current difference. Austria and Hungary are

:47:17.:47:22.

equalising the age with long trans sessional arrangements. In other

:47:23.:47:26.

states the difference is currently maintained. Although making the

:47:27.:47:33.

changes slowly. State pension ages will not be implemented in Poland

:47:34.:47:40.

until 2040 and Bulgaria and Romania are retaining different state

:47:41.:47:46.

pension ages. So it allows different ages and long transitional

:47:47.:47:49.

arrangements. It is not an excuse this Government can hide behind to

:47:50.:47:56.

hide behind a ?30,000 billions grab from 1950s-born women. Transitional

:47:57.:48:01.

protections were discussed on the Pensions Act of 2011, but not

:48:02.:48:06.

brought forward by ministers. Other countries have had transitional

:48:07.:48:10.

arrangements or have had help for specific groups. Denmark has a

:48:11.:48:15.

bridge pension. It tagly brought in extensive changes but made

:48:16.:48:22.

exemptions to people made redundant. Italy realised public sector workers

:48:23.:48:26.

could be left with no job and no pension. They then legislated six

:48:27.:48:33.

adjustments between 2015-2015 to protect the workers by special

:48:34.:48:38.

derogations. So the UK should and can put in place additional

:48:39.:48:42.

arrangements to address the unfair consequences of this Government's

:48:43.:48:46.

Pensions Act. One of these unfair consequences is having to pay

:48:47.:48:53.

national insurance contributions, even though many 1950s-born women

:48:54.:48:58.

have contributed for over 40 years. Differences exist at the regional

:48:59.:49:03.

level. The Greater London Authority restored free travel to Londoners

:49:04.:49:06.

aged between 60 and the state pension age lost due to the Pensions

:49:07.:49:13.

Act. Bringing in the 6 oh of plus -- 60-plus Oyster card, the mayor said,

:49:14.:49:19.

Londoners who have grafted all their life and expected free travel feel

:49:20.:49:24.

cheated. What about women living outside of London, who have grafted

:49:25.:49:29.

all their lives? And who also feel cheated when the Government's 2011

:49:30.:49:35.

pension age removed both their retirement and their free travel.

:49:36.:49:39.

The reforms cannot be justified on the forms that it was unsustainable,

:49:40.:49:42.

as the honourable member tried to do. The UK's state pension has been

:49:43.:49:50.

one of the lowest in the OECD. As I have detailed, EU law allows

:49:51.:49:58.

transitional. The lack of transdecisional arrangements for

:49:59.:50:01.

1950s women is due to the decision of this Conservative Government. I

:50:02.:50:06.

urge the minister to look at the issue and ways of providing adequate

:50:07.:50:09.

transitional cover. Thank you very much indeed Mr Deputy

:50:10.:50:17.

Speaker. I am pleased to be able to take part in this debate today. I

:50:18.:50:21.

congratulates those who have secured it and those who are working so hard

:50:22.:50:26.

outside this space to contact Members of Parliament and to talk

:50:27.:50:30.

about a very, very important issue of public policy and personal

:50:31.:50:35.

impact. My starting point, Mr Deputy Speaker

:50:36.:50:42.

s a passionate belief that a civilised country protects family,

:50:43.:50:45.

helps the vulnerable, helps those in work and provides in retirement. I

:50:46.:50:49.

am looking to the trins pals we might apply to this debate base ond

:50:50.:50:53.

the petition presented. As I understand it, the petition raises

:50:54.:50:56.

three concerns - it raises the problem of there being little

:50:57.:51:01.

notice, of the changes being faster than expect and the concern of there

:51:02.:51:06.

not being enough time to plan. And I can recognise some of those

:51:07.:51:10.

concerns in what I have heard from my own constituents. If I turn, for

:51:11.:51:21.

example, to the first concern that many of us have hard from

:51:22.:51:25.

constituents, somebody who has worked since a teenager, they are

:51:26.:51:29.

concerned at the direct prospect of what is facing them in terms of

:51:30.:51:35.

their health challenges, in terms of caring burdens and in terms of the

:51:36.:51:39.

prospect of replanning. Others are concerned at the way that the

:51:40.:51:45.

retirement dates work. Indeed a constituent told me in 2011, this is

:51:46.:51:51.

in connect to the debate, she was concerned a woman who is two months

:51:52.:51:56.

older than her could retire a year earlier. Another example from 2011,

:51:57.:52:02.

I have a person who was concerned about the double attack on her, in

:52:03.:52:07.

her words. She tells me she didn't like it, but accepted it, made the

:52:08.:52:11.

necessary changes to her plans, mentally and financially when she

:52:12.:52:15.

received her first notification of change and received another and was

:52:16.:52:21.

forced to adjust a second time. If I then look at a further constituent

:52:22.:52:25.

you hear a powerful and emotional argument. She said, when I first

:52:26.:52:29.

heard my retirement age had gone up from 60 to 64, I was shocked and

:52:30.:52:37.

tried to ignore it. She and I wonder, many Deputy Speaker if that

:52:38.:52:41.

is one of the seeds, if it is perhaps an explanation of the

:52:42.:52:44.

community problem which is here, if a person felt so shocked that their

:52:45.:52:48.

response was to try and ignore a problem, we might understand how

:52:49.:52:52.

powerful this problem is for these people. I like her and many others

:52:53.:52:57.

in this chamber have had many e-mails from constituents. Does she

:52:58.:53:01.

concern my concern that people who have worked all their live and have

:53:02.:53:06.

had to change plans around and in terms of notification when which

:53:07.:53:14.

have to work doubly hard. You get to a certain age, of which I am there

:53:15.:53:20.

now. I think my honourable friend puts it

:53:21.:53:24.

very well. If I turn to what a constituent has recently told me, a

:53:25.:53:28.

person who came to my surgery and explained it has come as a shock to

:53:29.:53:32.

her that she would have to wait until she was 66 until she could

:53:33.:53:37.

retire, she was not informed and found out only when she requested a

:53:38.:53:41.

pensions statement. We go to the question of being informed and

:53:42.:53:45.

having time to plan. Thank you to the honourable lady for

:53:46.:53:50.

giving way. I would like to clarify, despite suggesting that information

:53:51.:53:55.

was not sent out until the late 2000s, whether she is actually

:53:56.:53:58.

implying that all these women who say they were not contactsed were

:53:59.:54:06.

contacted after -- contacted after '95 and ignored it. I find it hard

:54:07.:54:13.

to understand what she is saying. I am citing directly from

:54:14.:54:17.

constituents. I will make sure the official record cites this. I do not

:54:18.:54:21.

know if a woman in question received the letter or not. I know what my

:54:22.:54:27.

constituents come to tell me. I look forward to the minister's

:54:28.:54:30.

explanation to what has happened historically. I hear from the

:54:31.:54:33.

honourable lady who opened the debate. I hear her point that the

:54:34.:54:37.

past is the past and there's only a certain amount you can do if you

:54:38.:54:41.

look at a problem which has routed in 1995. Let me go back to what I am

:54:42.:54:46.

looking for as we move forward. I think we have a set of principals

:54:47.:54:51.

that we could apply here. The first is we should protect those who can

:54:52.:54:54.

no longer work. The second is we should provide the right support for

:54:55.:54:58.

those who can. I think the third is that we should maintain sound

:54:59.:55:05.

publicfy nansss. To fail to do so -- public finances. To fail hurts all.

:55:06.:55:10.

We should produce better communications to enable people to

:55:11.:55:15.

plan. It is that that is my main message to ministers here today. Let

:55:16.:55:19.

me dwell first on the point of equalisation. I heard earlier in the

:55:20.:55:26.

debate a hubbub that said, yes, we all agree on equalisation. Let's

:55:27.:55:30.

have some figures why we need to do. That when the state pension age was

:55:31.:55:38.

first set at 65 in 1926, male life expect tabsy was 64, compared to 89

:55:39.:55:45.

today. If the state pension age had rised in terms of 65, since 1966, it

:55:46.:55:51.

would be 75. We have a significant gap that we need to make up. Indeed

:55:52.:55:57.

I understand when the state pension was even earlier set up in 1908, if

:55:58.:56:02.

we look further back into the history books. The average life

:56:03.:56:10.

expect pansy was 41. You see the -- expectancy was 4 # 1. You see the --

:56:11.:56:14.

41. You see the differences that we have to deal with. The Government

:56:15.:56:21.

acknowledged a more generous state pension had to be funded by an

:56:22.:56:24.

increase in the pension age. Let's make sure we are aware of the cost

:56:25.:56:28.

of these measures. I understand it would be to the tune of ?30 billion

:56:29.:56:34.

to return to a 1995 timetable. Let's compare that to a few other things

:56:35.:56:38.

so we have a well-informed debate. If we look at the 2015/16 spending

:56:39.:56:47.

figures, as soon in the July Budget, we see an expenditure of ?28 billion

:56:48.:56:52.

on housing and the environment. We see ?34 billion on public order and

:56:53.:56:57.

safety. All that we spend on housing and all that we spend on public

:56:58.:57:01.

order and safety is equivalent to the sum we are talking about here

:57:02.:57:06.

today in broad terms. Does she not recognise the

:57:07.:57:16.

reasonableness of what -- off their Waspi campaign and the issue of

:57:17.:57:21.

implementing the pension credit entitlements. Those as she will know

:57:22.:57:27.

are often key to people in terms of what they claim. I think the

:57:28.:57:31.

honourable gentleman cars I thank the honourable gentleman for that

:57:32.:57:35.

and I recognise the grounds of the campaign and as I hope I have made

:57:36.:57:39.

clear I do recognise the importance of this point for every single one

:57:40.:57:43.

of those people affected. I will leave it to the Minister to reply

:57:44.:57:46.

specifically about pension credits. Let me answer with one further

:57:47.:57:50.

example of what ?30 billion can buy you. It can buy you some of the debt

:57:51.:57:56.

interest on his government's financial catastrophe, to the tune

:57:57.:58:01.

of ?36 billion that we have to spend in this financial year. So let me

:58:02.:58:06.

conclude. I have only a few minutes left. Let me conclude. We do have to

:58:07.:58:14.

listen very, very carefully to such a competitive and well informed

:58:15.:58:20.

campaign, that is quite right. I want to hear my constituents'

:58:21.:58:25.

concerns that I have put into my comments balanced with all else the

:58:26.:58:28.

government has to do. I strongly sympathise with this campaign and

:58:29.:58:32.

indeed in 2011I was active in representing my constituents to the

:58:33.:58:36.

then pension Minister to mitigate the of two years in receiving their

:58:37.:58:42.

pension for around 250,000 women at that time. My call is for the

:58:43.:58:45.

government to communicate considerably better than has been

:58:46.:58:48.

done to date full stop it seems we cannot go back. Equalisation does

:58:49.:58:53.

have the mean equalisation. You cannot delay forever on it, nor

:58:54.:58:57.

Duckett. We need to maintain the principles I have set out and

:58:58.:59:01.

communicate better. Thank you very much. I'd like to apologise for not

:59:02.:59:05.

being present at the beginning of this debate. There is no doubt that

:59:06.:59:10.

this government's treatment of women in general has been abysmal. With

:59:11.:59:14.

more women in part-time, low paid work and women being hit harder by

:59:15.:59:18.

the tax and benefit changes compared to men. So it comes as no surprise

:59:19.:59:23.

that they are completely resolute in refusing to address the financial

:59:24.:59:26.

disadvantage they have forced on women born in the 1950s. The

:59:27.:59:35.

pensions act of 1995 and 2011 have resulted in millions of women's

:59:36.:59:39.

pensions being delayed. Then in -- this in itself is of concern.

:59:40.:59:43.

However, when most of these women have not been notified of these

:59:44.:59:46.

changes, it becomes more than a concern. It becomes a situation

:59:47.:59:50.

where some are already struggling to get by and being pushed into

:59:51.:59:56.

poverty. Of course Mr Deputy Speaker I am in favour of equalisation, as

:59:57.:00:00.

are all of the women whom I have spoken to, and I accept that

:00:01.:00:04.

increases in life expectancy mean any government needs to consider

:00:05.:00:08.

very carefully state pension age and the extension of working lives. But

:00:09.:00:12.

if such changes are to blame implemented is it not the mark of an

:00:13.:00:17.

irresponsible government, any government that cares about the

:00:18.:00:20.

people they are legislation affects, to make sure those affected no and

:00:21.:00:25.

that they do not introduce legislation that directly

:00:26.:00:32.

disadvantages millions of people. As others have probably already said,

:00:33.:00:35.

many of the women affected simply weren't notified. Those who have

:00:36.:00:41.

been notified since the 2011 acceleration, have only received two

:00:42.:00:46.

years' notice, get as we all know the appropriate minimum notification

:00:47.:00:49.

period for a state pension age increases generally agreed to be ten

:00:50.:00:55.

years. I will give way. Why Bob and I thank my honourable friend. My

:00:56.:00:58.

grandma taught me that two wrongs don't make a right and these women

:00:59.:01:02.

have been wronged time and time again. Given that there has been a

:01:03.:01:06.

successful legal action in the Dutch court, isn't it better that we form

:01:07.:01:10.

transitional arrangements rather than go to the law courts with this

:01:11.:01:14.

issue? I thank my honourable friend for that in the direction and she is

:01:15.:01:18.

spot on. It would be very embarrassing for this government

:01:19.:01:22.

decided to take individual legal action. Think of the lawyers' fees!

:01:23.:01:32.

I will give way. Was she also recognise that for many of these

:01:33.:01:37.

women who are our constituents there is a real, real threat of stress and

:01:38.:01:45.

stress-related illness as a result of that failure to inform? And the

:01:46.:01:50.

government should take that very, very seriously when understanding

:01:51.:01:54.

why so many members want these transitional arrangements. Thank

:01:55.:02:00.

you. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention and I'm going

:02:01.:02:03.

to come onto some examples from my own constituency of women who are

:02:04.:02:07.

experiencing that very stressed that he refers to. In my constituency in

:02:08.:02:11.

South Shields we have a higher than average level of people with

:02:12.:02:16.

illnesses such as COPD and others left over from our proud heavy

:02:17.:02:20.

industrial days. This means that we have a large number of women who are

:02:21.:02:24.

caring for relatives or husbands, women who fall into the group who

:02:25.:02:28.

have been disadvantaged by these pensions changes. One woman such as

:02:29.:02:33.

my constituents Lynne Wilson, she got a letter sometime in 2011-2012

:02:34.:02:39.

and told she would not be getting her pension at 65, but at 66. This

:02:40.:02:44.

was a complete and utter shock to her as she was still of the view she

:02:45.:02:49.

was getting her pension when she was 60 years old. Her husband Derek was

:02:50.:02:53.

diagnosed with lung cancer four years ago. In -- due to these

:02:54.:02:57.

pension changes Lynne has had to continue working but has had to

:02:58.:03:01.

reduce her hours so she can care for Derek. She does a difficult and

:03:02.:03:07.

physical job. She herself suffers from serious back problems and

:03:08.:03:10.

arthritis. If her back got worse she tells me she has a small private

:03:11.:03:14.

pension she and Derek could manage to live on, but that would not last

:03:15.:03:18.

for the whole six years that she needs to wait for her state pension.

:03:19.:03:22.

She told me she continues to struggle on but I am her both in

:03:23.:03:25.

agreement that this should not be the way. I will give way. Does my

:03:26.:03:33.

honourable friend agree with me that women like her constituents face the

:03:34.:03:36.

double barrier of discrimination in the workplace as women are being

:03:37.:03:39.

forced to work longer, this government has put barriers in the

:03:40.:03:45.

way to their access to employment tribunals as well? I agree

:03:46.:03:47.

completely with my honourable friend. But my constituent is not

:03:48.:03:51.

the only one who knows things should not be this way. Baroness Altman,

:03:52.:03:58.

when director general of Saga, now in the other plays as Minister of

:03:59.:04:01.

State for pensions, said the government's changes to state

:04:02.:04:03.

pensions were clearly discriminatory. The Secretary of

:04:04.:04:09.

State for Work and Pensions in 2011 made a firm commitment to look at

:04:10.:04:12.

transitional provisions to help women hit hardest by these changes.

:04:13.:04:18.

And the previous pensions Minister stated only last year that the

:04:19.:04:22.

changes made were a decision we got wrong. What is outrageous is that

:04:23.:04:28.

despite knowing this the government are not prepared to do anything

:04:29.:04:32.

about it and seem content to let these women continue to suffer.

:04:33.:04:37.

Another one of my constituents, Diane Dawson, it took voluntary

:04:38.:04:42.

redundancy from her job when she was 60 years old. This was assuming that

:04:43.:04:47.

she was to reach state pension age at 62. She then found out not from

:04:48.:04:53.

the DWP, but from a friend, that she would reach state pension age not at

:04:54.:05:00.

62, but at 64. She is now living off dwindling savings and as a result is

:05:01.:05:05.

having to sell her family home. She has never received anything at all

:05:06.:05:12.

from the DWP. No wonder she feels completely let down and completely

:05:13.:05:15.

cheated. Mr Deputy Speaker there are many more women in these difficult

:05:16.:05:19.

situations who have worked their entire lives only to find out at the

:05:20.:05:23.

11th hour that the system they trusted and paid into four decades

:05:24.:05:28.

has let them down. I would urge the Minister is seriously listen to the

:05:29.:05:31.

motion before the House today because if transitional arrangements

:05:32.:05:36.

are not introduced the women affected and those of us on this

:05:37.:05:40.

side of the chamber are not going to give up pressing for them. I'm also

:05:41.:05:43.

sure the Minister agrees it would be a lot more costly and a lot more

:05:44.:05:48.

embarrassing for this government if those individuals began to seek some

:05:49.:05:53.

legal redress. I just hope Mr Deputy Speaker that the work of the

:05:54.:05:56.

Wimmer-macro campaigners and others that led to this debate today will

:05:57.:06:02.

see this government listen, for once -- the Wimmer-macro campaigners. I

:06:03.:06:08.

have sympathy with people when they are expectations change and I thank

:06:09.:06:15.

my constituents who have e-mailed me to highlight this issue. I want to

:06:16.:06:21.

start by looking at the background of this whole issue. The fact is

:06:22.:06:26.

that the longevity of our population is rising and that's a good thing.

:06:27.:06:30.

It's great to live longer and women live longer than men and women have,

:06:31.:06:37.

I won't give way, thank you, and women on average are having a more

:06:38.:06:44.

healthy longevity and that is rising at a greater rate than it is for

:06:45.:06:50.

men. We as a nation spends a massive and increasing amount on our health

:06:51.:06:53.

care system and our pensions system in order to make that a happy

:06:54.:06:57.

retirement for as many people as possible. By way of background, it

:06:58.:07:04.

was in 1908 that they're then Liberal government and a Lloyd

:07:05.:07:08.

George actually brought in the first provisions, no, not at all, I

:07:09.:07:13.

certainly wouldn't blame, I thank for the intervention, but I'm not

:07:14.:07:17.

blaming the Liberals for that! When it was first brought in...

:07:18.:07:26.

Churchill... Exactly, there was a great man, Mr Churchill, who was

:07:27.:07:30.

involved as well. But what happened back then was the age at which it

:07:31.:07:34.

could be claimed was set at 70 years old, that compared with the average

:07:35.:07:38.

longevity at that point of 55 years of age, which gives you some idea,

:07:39.:07:44.

which gives us some idea, of the changes that have taken place since.

:07:45.:07:54.

In 1995, the retirement ages were raised so that they would be equal

:07:55.:08:00.

between women and men in the future and then this was further looked at

:08:01.:08:06.

in the mid-2000 by Lord Turner and there was pretty good cross-party

:08:07.:08:12.

support at that time for those ages to be raised further, given the

:08:13.:08:14.

increases in longevity I've been talking about. Under there is this

:08:15.:08:21.

last government, in correlation with the Liberal Democrats, when I wasn't

:08:22.:08:27.

in this Parliament a decision was taken based on even further

:08:28.:08:30.

increases in the longevity, to increase those ages even faster for

:08:31.:08:40.

a few of the people involved in it -- coalition. One of the principles

:08:41.:08:45.

behind all of these more recent changes was the affordability over

:08:46.:08:50.

all of the system. We've heard about the price it would cost to reverse

:08:51.:08:57.

this as being ?39 billion. Now, that is a liability that would apply to

:08:58.:09:03.

all age groups and in my submission it would be very unfair for us to

:09:04.:09:08.

continue trying to burden the younger generations with extra taxes

:09:09.:09:15.

in order to make more concessions than we already have, but at the

:09:16.:09:23.

moment. -- not at the moment. There was a concession of over ?1 billion

:09:24.:09:31.

made at the time of the last decision 2011, to actually help

:09:32.:09:34.

these particular age groups who are contacting us now. I want to talk a

:09:35.:09:40.

little bit about equality, because I have two very young daughters and

:09:41.:09:43.

I'm very keen that they should have as equal opportunities as possible,

:09:44.:09:51.

to take part in the workplace and to be equal citizens in every right

:09:52.:09:57.

with men of this nation. I want to highlight a few things that make me

:09:58.:10:03.

think that we the government on this side are actually very well on

:10:04.:10:08.

behalf of women. Yes, on behalf of women. The introduction of a single

:10:09.:10:14.

tier state pension will have a very good effect on women and it being

:10:15.:10:23.

equally available to them as the men, based on the same types of

:10:24.:10:32.

approach to national insurance. Certainly, yes I will. You talked

:10:33.:10:35.

about equalisation of the state pension and it's important to note

:10:36.:10:40.

we talked about women living longer, women living as long as men now, and

:10:41.:10:44.

equalisation of the state pension age is a reflection that women and

:10:45.:10:47.

men play an equal role in our society and our economy. I thank the

:10:48.:10:54.

Honourable lady for her intervention and she makes an excellent point.

:10:55.:10:59.

Equality is at the heart of what we are trying to do for women. One of

:11:00.:11:06.

the ways that we are looking to do that is to decrease the gender pay

:11:07.:11:11.

gap is. That will be helped by increasing the minimum wage,

:11:12.:11:18.

increasing the availability of jobs and work, and increasing the

:11:19.:11:21.

personal tax allowance, so there are many incentives and programmes that

:11:22.:11:27.

we are pursuing to allow women to participate successfully for a short

:11:28.:11:33.

extra time longer than they may have expected. This takes us back to the

:11:34.:11:39.

issue at the heart of this debate, which seems to be the extent to

:11:40.:11:43.

which women were given notice and the ability therefore the plan for

:11:44.:11:51.

their retirement -- to plan for their retirement. Now I have some

:11:52.:11:54.

sympathy and obviously anyone who is going through a stressful personal

:11:55.:11:59.

situation, I am sympathetic to, but we do also need to be responsible.

:12:00.:12:05.

It's very hard to say who exactly was contacted and not, but it is, I

:12:06.:12:14.

think, from what I have seen and I obviously wasn't involved in any of

:12:15.:12:17.

the previous decisions, but most people were given that notice and

:12:18.:12:20.

that allows them to actually plan. I would give some advice to the

:12:21.:12:31.

younger generations who might be listening to this debate, I have

:12:32.:12:38.

some experience in the pension world and the main thing you have to

:12:39.:12:44.

remember when investor in for our retirement it is that the earlier

:12:45.:12:48.

you get started saving the more money you will have at the end. That

:12:49.:12:54.

is because of the power of compound interest which has a tremendous,

:12:55.:13:02.

tremendous effect. Certainly. I thank... I thank my honourable

:13:03.:13:08.

friend forgiving way, in this wide-ranging speech. Would he join

:13:09.:13:13.

with me in hoping that the minister in his closing remarks will address

:13:14.:13:19.

some of those communications going forward with those who work now and

:13:20.:13:23.

are hoping to retire in the future, so that his young daughters and my

:13:24.:13:26.

young daughters will know where they are? I thank the honourable lady for

:13:27.:13:33.

her intervention. She makes an excellent point, on which I was

:13:34.:13:38.

going to conclude my remarks. We have a duty to the young people of

:13:39.:13:43.

this nation to keep their taxes down so that they have as much scope to

:13:44.:13:47.

plan for their retirement as possible. They are already being

:13:48.:13:51.

asked to shoulder a completely unacceptable burden which was put

:13:52.:13:57.

upon them by the benches opposite and in my view it would be entirely

:13:58.:14:01.

wrong to reopen the decision which was taken by the Liberal Democrat

:14:02.:14:06.

and Conservative coalition back in 2011. Can I just say to the member

:14:07.:14:19.

of Yeovil, I am sure that the debate will feel really glad he feels

:14:20.:14:22.

sympathy for them. He might want to think when he is telling people

:14:23.:14:26.

about saving early in their lives that a lot of the women we are

:14:27.:14:31.

talking about was barred from paying into secondary pension schemes. I

:14:32.:14:37.

congratulate this debate, this should have been a statement from

:14:38.:14:42.

the party opposite, she said it was complicated and people always hide

:14:43.:14:46.

behind pensions being complicated but the truth is, this is a very

:14:47.:14:54.

simple debate. We are here today, this is not a pensions debate this

:14:55.:14:59.

is a debate about public policy. We have a Chancellor who has a

:15:00.:15:02.

long-term economic plan, you might have heard about it! It was supposed

:15:03.:15:08.

to end the deficit in four years complete and utter flop. Cannot even

:15:09.:15:14.

put forward a plan which lasts for weeks. He came last year with a

:15:15.:15:18.

budget to this house which is going to be detrimental to those people

:15:19.:15:22.

facing welfare cuts to their pensions in this country. A few

:15:23.:15:28.

weeks later he came back with ?27 billion in his pocket which he found

:15:29.:15:31.

down the back of the couch and that was going to be the way forward. But

:15:32.:15:37.

this morning he is older than media telling us hang on, you have got it

:15:38.:15:41.

wrong, we are in a mess again and have to put the brake on again.

:15:42.:15:46.

People have to realise we are still facing austerity. Give them credit,

:15:47.:15:51.

the people speaking from the benches opposite have trotted that line out

:15:52.:15:55.

today. Said how hard it is going to be, all these billions of Pope to

:15:56.:16:00.

put right what has gone wrong. But what we have to accept is that this

:16:01.:16:04.

is not like the weather -- billions of pounds. This is a political

:16:05.:16:12.

choice. They are knowingly and deliberately making women in this

:16:13.:16:15.

country pay for the mistakes for the rich and wealthy which resulted in

:16:16.:16:27.

the ash in 2008 -- the crash. Yesterday I read the National Audit

:16:28.:16:32.

Office had identified the UK's complex weapons programme has

:16:33.:16:35.

increased to 14 billion a year over the past few years, with the

:16:36.:16:39.

honourable member agree that it is clear evidence that pensioners are

:16:40.:16:43.

suffering from the poor decisions and the priorities of this

:16:44.:16:47.

government? Absolutely correct. One of the members said to put this

:16:48.:16:51.

right we have to raise income tax, we would not. We could stop spending

:16:52.:16:55.

on things, stop doing things like giving more money to the children of

:16:56.:16:59.

dead millionaires with inheritance tax. We could stop giving businesses

:17:00.:17:08.

cut in corporation tax. The truth is that this has been a choice and we

:17:09.:17:13.

are a country, where two days ago the chief executive of the top 100

:17:14.:17:19.

companies, they are salaries passed at the average wage of working men

:17:20.:17:23.

and women in this country. That is the inequality in this country. At

:17:24.:17:28.

the same time we are seeing these women and we are saying you have to

:17:29.:17:32.

carry the can for the failures of global capitalism. The truth is the

:17:33.:17:36.

party opposite by and large don't care. They don't care because they

:17:37.:17:39.

don't understand the reality of life at the sharp end. My mother was one

:17:40.:17:45.

of the women who worked all her life, in jobs where she was never

:17:46.:17:49.

allowed to join a pension scheme and was only able to build up a

:17:50.:17:53.

secondary pension scheme so in the end she did in relative poverty. My

:17:54.:17:58.

mother died 15 years ago but things have not changed for the majority of

:17:59.:18:06.

women in this country. My constituency and my constituents

:18:07.:18:09.

wrote a long heartfelt letter to me and I will quote some small parts.

:18:10.:18:17.

"My Pension has changed twice, once in 1995, from 60, 264, and again I

:18:18.:18:27.

was not notified, I was 59 with five years to work that my retirement age

:18:28.:18:32.

had been changed from 64, two 66. This is not enough time to prepare.

:18:33.:18:40.

" He is making a powerful speech and it reminds me of an e-mail I had

:18:41.:18:44.

from a constituents which also said she was double locked. The first

:18:45.:18:48.

time because she was younger she wasn't thinking about these things

:18:49.:18:51.

but she has health problems and worries she will be knocking on the

:18:52.:18:57.

door of job-seekers. The truth is that everyone of us in this room,

:18:58.:19:01.

including the people opposite, could all have read cases from people who

:19:02.:19:06.

have written to us, come to see us about the inequality and the

:19:07.:19:09.

disgrace going on here today and should not have been allowed to

:19:10.:19:14.

happen. My constituent goes on to say "This is not enough time to pay,

:19:15.:19:19.

I start work at 16 and for 25 years received my pension at 60, to have

:19:20.:19:24.

this changed not once but twice in my lifetime. I feel betrayed by the

:19:25.:19:30.

government and women my age have been discriminated against most of

:19:31.:19:34.

their working lives, denied the ability to prepare for retirement

:19:35.:19:37.

and taking the biggest hit of all so the government can the retirement

:19:38.:19:45.

age in a attempt to save money. " Is I believe the minister is a decent

:19:46.:19:48.

man and I don't think he will have the power or authority to do today

:19:49.:19:51.

what we believe should happen but let's look at the reality, the

:19:52.:19:56.

former minister responsible for this, the human shield of the

:19:57.:20:02.

Liberal Democrats, I would ask a question Mr Deputy Speaker, where

:20:03.:20:04.

are the Liberal Democrats today? Is anybody here from the Liberal

:20:05.:20:09.

Democrats? Perhaps they are ashamed of him as they should be for him

:20:10.:20:13.

being the shield for the hostility agenda forced through through five

:20:14.:20:18.

years of college. -- the austerity agenda. -- five years of coalition.

:20:19.:20:28.

This is a contract with the people of this country, a contract that the

:20:29.:20:31.

people of this country did not have any say in. It was a contract, this

:20:32.:20:39.

contract has been breached, it needs to be put right and they need to do

:20:40.:20:47.

the right thing. It would do the world of politics are very positive

:20:48.:20:52.

service if when we get it wrong, we say we get it wrong and put it

:20:53.:20:57.

right? Wrecked, in putting it right I am

:20:58.:21:04.

glad, what we don't want is the shifty thing which happens when the

:21:05.:21:12.

Chancellor came here in December and said I am not going to go ahead with

:21:13.:21:16.

tax credit cuts but he had moved it so it will come and hit people in

:21:17.:21:20.

universal credit. We want this put right and put right now and quickly.

:21:21.:21:28.

Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you for calling me to talk in this debate

:21:29.:21:33.

which in some ways is a rerun of one held in December in Westminster

:21:34.:21:39.

hall, organised by the member for Worsley and Eccles South who has a

:21:40.:21:42.

long track record of campaigning on this issue and I congratulate also

:21:43.:21:49.

my colleague on the select committee for bringing this up and bringing to

:21:50.:21:54.

life in a sense the emotional feelings by many women of the most

:21:55.:21:59.

affected by changes to the state pension. In a way that everyone here

:22:00.:22:04.

can relate to, because we all have pensions and members of our own

:22:05.:22:09.

family who are affected. I do think Mr Deputy Speaker there is a risk

:22:10.:22:15.

today of overstating the case. My colleague in the select committee

:22:16.:22:19.

will not mind me, I hope, saying that when she said nobody was aware

:22:20.:22:27.

of the 1995 changes, there was no correspondence, that simply is an

:22:28.:22:31.

exaggeration of the situation. We will never know exactly who was

:22:32.:22:38.

communicated to, and who, probably most importantly, noticed it and

:22:39.:22:42.

paid attention. Not yet, not at the moment. We do know that in 2004, the

:22:43.:22:48.

previous government did a study on this from the DWP and Labour Party

:22:49.:22:52.

members will remember this. That study concluded that three quarters

:22:53.:22:57.

of those affected had been to be negated to effectively. Not at the

:22:58.:23:02.

moment. Members on the opposition side bench may care to comment on

:23:03.:23:06.

that. The fact is there are quite a lot of people who either were told

:23:07.:23:09.

at that time and thought it was a long way off and not something we

:23:10.:23:14.

had to be attention to all were not communicated to in which case for

:23:15.:23:16.

some of them it's been a difficult wake-up call. No doubt about that,

:23:17.:23:20.

lessons for accreditation which I will come onto and I hope the

:23:21.:23:25.

menaced will address. A lot of people want to talk so let me carry

:23:26.:23:32.

on. On the second point she brought up, and she was right to quote the

:23:33.:23:37.

previous pensions minister saying that not everybody knew and that is

:23:38.:23:41.

a point he has accepted and we all recognise. But nonetheless, the

:23:42.:23:46.

argument that no transitional arrangements were made, which is

:23:47.:23:51.

what the honourable members are calling for today, is of course also

:23:52.:23:56.

wrong. There was a significant transitional arrangement and

:23:57.:24:00.

concession made in 2011 which affected 250,000 people and cost the

:24:01.:24:05.

government ?1.3 million, cost the tax payer ?1.3 billion. The reason

:24:06.:24:12.

that arrangement was made was precisely because they then pensions

:24:13.:24:17.

minister in the then government recognised that advice from the

:24:18.:24:23.

Department only increase of waiting time for some women born in the

:24:24.:24:28.

1950s was as much as two years and they wanted to juice it to 18 months

:24:29.:24:35.

which would indeed benefit the 250,000 people from that

:24:36.:24:39.

arrangement. What is interesting today is that whilst the motion

:24:40.:24:43.

calls for transitional arrangements, further transitional arrangements,

:24:44.:24:48.

it does not spell out, nor does any member speaking so far spell out,

:24:49.:24:52.

exactly what transitional arrangements are being called for?

:24:53.:24:58.

Hold on, let me finish. Where the intention to simply change all the

:24:59.:25:03.

arrangements for all the women in the 1950s and go back to the

:25:04.:25:08.

original proposal, that would, I believe, and the minister may want

:25:09.:25:13.

to bid a more detailed figure on it, cost the taxpayer about ?10 billion.

:25:14.:25:19.

Yesterday we had the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary call for changes

:25:20.:25:24.

to universal credit, which were not costed, to which he offered no

:25:25.:25:27.

alternative in terms of where the money would come from, today we have

:25:28.:25:32.

something which might cost ?10 billion but actually the

:25:33.:25:34.

transitional arrangement being proposed hasn't been spelt out now

:25:35.:25:38.

has the cost of it or how it would be paid for. Mr Deputy Speaker I do

:25:39.:25:42.

believe that it is incumbent on all of us as MPs, partly to represent

:25:43.:25:48.

the emotional feelings of our constituents, which has been done

:25:49.:25:52.

very well by a number of members today, but also to reflect on the

:25:53.:25:55.

reality and the cost and the obligations of what is being

:25:56.:26:00.

proposed. That, I think, does remain an open question and I am happy to

:26:01.:26:03.

take a question on that specific point. To the honourable member,

:26:04.:26:08.

with the honourable member except that what we have was the quest for

:26:09.:26:13.

equalisation in pensions which has resulted in an iniquitous outcome

:26:14.:26:17.

for the women discussed here this afternoon? The social justice

:26:18.:26:20.

demands that whatever the transitional arrangements should be

:26:21.:26:23.

and I believe he makes a strong point, that he and other members of

:26:24.:26:28.

the DWP committee will work to find transitional arrangements which will

:26:29.:26:29.

ease the iniquitous outcome. We have that discussion is select

:26:30.:26:40.

committee. We heard evidence from the Waspi campaign, which has been a

:26:41.:26:44.

very good, reasonable, sensible campaign, and it did focus on the

:26:45.:26:47.

hole in their evidence to the select committee on the issue of

:26:48.:26:50.

communication. Partly so that lessons can be learned, so that in

:26:51.:26:53.

the future when announcements are made, which may well be for ten

:26:54.:26:57.

years ahead, that actually all those who are going to be affected really

:26:58.:27:01.

are communicated to effectively, so we don't have a situation in ten

:27:02.:27:06.

years' time where another generation of women are complaining about not

:27:07.:27:11.

knowing. I'm happy to give way. Would he agree with me that there,

:27:12.:27:17.

we hope the minister in his summing up, addresses the whole point of the

:27:18.:27:21.

failure of communication strategy since 1995, right up to the current

:27:22.:27:26.

day. I have a constituent who was told in October they had qualified

:27:27.:27:30.

for their state pension a few weeks later they were told no, they had

:27:31.:27:33.

another three years. We really need to address this point. Yes, I think

:27:34.:27:39.

that's right, I'm sure the Minister will comment on communication

:27:40.:27:42.

because as I said in the debate in December there are clear lessons and

:27:43.:27:46.

it would be good to have it clarified that future changes, and I

:27:47.:27:48.

know there's a further review planned in 2017, given the longevity

:27:49.:27:54.

increases that are still going on, in fact I think the average life of

:27:55.:28:00.

women as projected by the Office of National Statistics has already

:28:01.:28:05.

increased 2.6 years since the 1995 proposals, and I dare Turner, whose

:28:06.:28:08.

report really gave the consensus that this House had for many years

:28:09.:28:12.

said not very long ago that if he was doing the report now he would

:28:13.:28:16.

have planned for faster changes ahead the state pension ages. It's

:28:17.:28:21.

also worth reflecting the honourable member for Paisley and Renfrewshire

:28:22.:28:25.

rightly said that at some point we would want to discuss the effect on

:28:26.:28:31.

women of the future state pension, and in answer to the honourable

:28:32.:28:34.

member's point about discrimination against women, I think it is really

:28:35.:28:40.

important that all members and our constituents are aware that the new

:28:41.:28:43.

state pension will be much fairer to women than the old system. Let me

:28:44.:28:49.

just point out this if I make, then I will come to you. National

:28:50.:28:52.

insurance credits will be given four years taken out of work for caring

:28:53.:28:56.

or bringing up a family. This is the first time this has happened in the

:28:57.:28:59.

history of the pension. It's a really important point. It will give

:29:00.:29:03.

women the same entitlements as National Insurance contributions

:29:04.:29:07.

through earning. That's a significant change and I do think

:29:08.:29:09.

the honourable members who brought forward this motion would want to

:29:10.:29:13.

allude to that. Of course I give way. I have listened very carefully

:29:14.:29:17.

to him and what he said today as the government made a policy decision in

:29:18.:29:22.

2011 to accelerate which impacted on a lot of people. He said they had

:29:23.:29:26.

failed to communicate the effects of that decision to the people

:29:27.:29:29.

affected. So why does he conclude the government doesn't now have a

:29:30.:29:32.

moral obligation to put that mistake right? Actually what I said was the

:29:33.:29:39.

communication issue goes back to 1995, a time when I certainly wasn't

:29:40.:29:44.

in this House and during that period of 1995-2010, for the bulk of that

:29:45.:29:51.

period his party was in power, so the communication issue, there's no

:29:52.:29:53.

point in pointing fingers at different parties on this, but the

:29:54.:29:58.

point is that during that period between 1995-2010, that is at the

:29:59.:30:02.

heart of the issue of communication, which the motion addresses, and the

:30:03.:30:08.

important thing now is in terms of what good advice can we give our

:30:09.:30:11.

constituents, the important thing is for those who are not sure what they

:30:12.:30:15.

are going to receive an retirement is to ask for a statement and that

:30:16.:30:20.

is what the pension wise campaign, which is available to everybody free

:30:21.:30:24.

of charge, is there to do. Ask for the statement. Half a million people

:30:25.:30:28.

have already taken advantage of that. That is the most effective

:30:29.:30:31.

communications tool that we should be using to address this issue of

:30:32.:30:36.

making sure that women and men, everybody approaching retirement,

:30:37.:30:43.

knows what they will receive. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. When the

:30:44.:30:49.

latest changes were made in 2011 act regarding pensions we on this side

:30:50.:30:53.

of the House objected and there were many debates about this particular

:30:54.:30:57.

issue and we talked about especially the 11 minute -- the double whammy

:30:58.:31:01.

effect on women and remember speaking on this debate but the

:31:02.:31:04.

government went ahead and passed this legislation. I want to explain

:31:05.:31:08.

to the Minister what my constituents have been writing to me about the

:31:09.:31:11.

women who have been affected by these changes and I'm going to read

:31:12.:31:16.

out some of them. Every one of the women who has contact Lee has said

:31:17.:31:24.

that they agreed the state pension age equality but what they have

:31:25.:31:26.

objected to and what they found difficulties the way that it has

:31:27.:31:30.

been implemented particularly the acceleration of the increase and

:31:31.:31:36.

lack of information. Some of my constituents directly affected by

:31:37.:31:40.

these changes have told me that even now they have not received any

:31:41.:31:47.

communication or formal notification of the changes from the Department

:31:48.:31:51.

for Work and Pensions. This is utterly unacceptable, given the

:31:52.:31:55.

gravity of these changes. Posting notices on women's magazines and

:31:56.:31:59.

Sunday supplements is both patronising and ineffective. None of

:32:00.:32:04.

the women I spoke to our readers of such publications. They found about

:32:05.:32:10.

the changes to word of mouth. As the increase in pension age is literally

:32:11.:32:14.

life changing, far more notice should have been given a head of the

:32:15.:32:19.

changes and the government should have ensured that everyone who is

:32:20.:32:22.

affected can plan for their future. One lady I spoke to told me that she

:32:23.:32:27.

had lived at the same address for the past 30 years and said that

:32:28.:32:34.

there have been no excuse she had not received any thing, and

:32:35.:32:37.

therefore to suggest that somehow people did know what was happening

:32:38.:32:43.

is wrong. Can I thank the honourable lady for giving way. I fully

:32:44.:32:49.

recognise there's obviously been a great deal of communicate -- there's

:32:50.:32:52.

been a breakdown in communication from government as a whole but can I

:32:53.:32:57.

ask was that she has any practical solution as to how the try and deal

:32:58.:33:03.

with this. I will come onto the practical solution in the remaining

:33:04.:33:07.

part of my speech. The other major concern that women have told me is

:33:08.:33:13.

that even when they have been notified there hasn't been enough

:33:14.:33:17.

time for these women to actually prepare for these major changes in

:33:18.:33:21.

their lives. One of my constituents, who is 62 years of age, and she was

:33:22.:33:28.

due to retire at 62 years and three months, however she will now have to

:33:29.:33:32.

work until she is 65. Understandably this is caused a great deal of

:33:33.:33:36.

distress and uncertainty for her because she had been planning to

:33:37.:33:41.

retire in two months' time. A plan had been to coordinate their

:33:42.:33:48.

retirement with her grandchildren so she could look after them so she

:33:49.:33:52.

would not have the as the government to pay for the child care of her

:33:53.:33:55.

grandchildren. By changing this around its turn her life into

:33:56.:33:58.

turmoil and the government is going to end up paying for those

:33:59.:34:03.

childcares. Another constituent has told me that anticipating retirement

:34:04.:34:08.

at 60 she took voluntary redundancy at aged 58 and a half when her

:34:09.:34:14.

company received -- was seeking to downsize. She was later informed she

:34:15.:34:19.

would not be able to access her as their -- Access her state pension

:34:20.:34:22.

until she is 66 years of age. She is now unemployed and riding difficulty

:34:23.:34:26.

finding another job because of her rage. She has been left in financial

:34:27.:34:31.

hardship as a result of not being notified about the changes to the

:34:32.:34:34.

state pension age and Tully was too late. She is not just one example.

:34:35.:34:39.

There are many thousands of women across the United Kingdom who are in

:34:40.:34:45.

those boats. Let me go onto another discrepancy, the discrepancy of the

:34:46.:34:49.

two years and two months for women born between April and December 1953

:34:50.:34:55.

is simply confusing and unfair. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was told

:34:56.:35:00.

this, the government was told this in the previous debates in 2011, and

:35:01.:35:04.

what it means is that for some constituents this is a difference of

:35:05.:35:09.

about ?14,000, which is a lot of money for them. Again, it's not just

:35:10.:35:15.

my constituents that have been affected. Women across the country

:35:16.:35:19.

have been affected by this. Hundreds of thousands of women have had a

:35:20.:35:23.

significant change imposed on them not just once but twice, with a lack

:35:24.:35:28.

of appropriate notification and retirement plans have been shattered

:35:29.:35:33.

with devastating consequences. The government seems to have failed to

:35:34.:35:36.

recognise the severe impact that the speed of the implementation of these

:35:37.:35:40.

changes has had on these women. These changes have not affected men

:35:41.:35:45.

to the same extent, as their state pension age has not been increased

:35:46.:35:48.

by such a large amount and they have had much more notice. The pensions

:35:49.:35:52.

system has historically discriminate against women and these changes are

:35:53.:35:58.

yet another example of this. I would ask and urge the government that now

:35:59.:36:06.

in 2016 will they reconsider these provisions and try to diminish the

:36:07.:36:10.

impact of these plans and make transitional arrangements which

:36:11.:36:13.

would be fairer for these women affected. I have listened with great

:36:14.:36:21.

interest to her speech and the speech of other members who sit

:36:22.:36:26.

beside her and in particular to the references to transitional

:36:27.:36:28.

arrangements. I wonder, could she help me, what does she mean by

:36:29.:36:33.

transitional arrangements? What does she suggest? How much will they cost

:36:34.:36:42.

and how will we find the money? Well I'm glad you've given me extra time

:36:43.:36:50.

on this. I think there are many different ways that you can deal

:36:51.:36:56.

with these issues. The recent one simple panacea solution to it. If

:36:57.:37:01.

the government wishes to receive a comprehensive response from me as

:37:02.:37:05.

the way forward I am very happy to put a very detailed as to how to

:37:06.:37:13.

deal with this. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. We

:37:14.:37:19.

are constantly hearing from members opposite for what is a practical

:37:20.:37:22.

transition plan looked like. Surely the responsibility of government is

:37:23.:37:28.

to come forward with a plan which this House can debate. This is an

:37:29.:37:32.

abdication of response ability. I entirely agree with my honourable

:37:33.:37:37.

friend. I think it's typical of this government's approaching these

:37:38.:37:43.

things. It should be my right honourable friend would maybe recall

:37:44.:37:49.

that when the bill went through in 2011 and a further transitional

:37:50.:37:52.

arrangement was proposed, in October 2011 and arrangement was proposed

:37:53.:37:57.

that nobody would have made -- been made to wait more than a year for

:37:58.:38:00.

their pension update and that would have cost ?10 million over ten years

:38:01.:38:05.

and it would have had the common state pension age coming to the

:38:06.:38:09.

2022, but it was rejected by the government. Correction. I'm grateful

:38:10.:38:15.

for my friend's intervention and hopefully that has helped the

:38:16.:38:20.

honourable member opposite. As I said I'm very happy to pen down very

:38:21.:38:24.

detailed things that can be done to help these ladies, but I would like

:38:25.:38:28.

a promise from the government that when I do right they will actually

:38:29.:38:33.

commend what I said. Maybe I can have that reassurance from the

:38:34.:38:35.

government that when I come up with these suggestions as to how to deal

:38:36.:38:39.

with the various different problems they will actually say yes, you are

:38:40.:38:43.

right, the honourable member for Bolton South East has got the

:38:44.:38:47.

solution and we are going to actually implement what she says.

:38:48.:38:50.

Will I get that promise from the Minister? Thank you Mr Depp is

:38:51.:38:58.

bigger. I wish to congratulate -- thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wish

:38:59.:39:02.

to congratulate the honourable members for securing this debate. In

:39:03.:39:07.

the last few months I've met a number of constituents of mining

:39:08.:39:10.

Bexhill and Beth Hill who have been impacted by these changes. These

:39:11.:39:14.

constituents have detailed how the state pension increases have

:39:15.:39:17.

impacted them due to being on the wrong side of the date line. I have

:39:18.:39:22.

every sympathy with anyone who has been impacted by these changes. I

:39:23.:39:27.

can see why there has been so much frustration from those impacted. I

:39:28.:39:31.

congratulate the Waspi campaign for driving this debate. Mr Deputy

:39:32.:39:37.

Speaker, while it is true that any criteria change regarding pensions,

:39:38.:39:40.

benefits or taxation in general is always going to impact some, I'm

:39:41.:39:44.

conscious that these individuals that we are talking about today have

:39:45.:39:48.

in many circumstances worked for decades and did so on the basis that

:39:49.:39:52.

their pensions would be there for them at the prescribed time. However

:39:53.:39:57.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm also conscious that when actuaries were

:39:58.:40:00.

calculating life expectancy and therefore the amount of years for

:40:01.:40:04.

which a pension would pay out, they would not have calculated the life

:40:05.:40:07.

expectancy levels which are currently being enjoyed. Neither

:40:08.:40:12.

would the rising levels of health been -- have been appreciated. These

:40:13.:40:16.

factors have therefore driven successive governments and most OECD

:40:17.:40:19.

nations to increase the state pension age. With the honourable

:40:20.:40:26.

member not accept though that life expectancy is not the same for

:40:27.:40:31.

everybody everywhere and there are places in Glasgow where life

:40:32.:40:33.

expectancy is significantly lower than other parts of the country?

:40:34.:40:39.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I absolutely do take that point. But I

:40:40.:40:44.

think it would be naive not to recognise that as we do live

:40:45.:40:47.

healthier lives and would expect to live healthier lives than we are not

:40:48.:40:50.

only able to work longer but we would want to work longer in

:40:51.:40:54.

addition to that as well. I will make some progress, if I may. Mr

:40:55.:40:59.

Deputy Speaker, the question therefore remains, what if anything

:41:00.:41:03.

can be done to lessen the impact on those who will have to now work

:41:04.:41:08.

longer before qualifying for their state pension. I make particular

:41:09.:41:12.

reference to those whom it can be demonstrated were not notified as

:41:13.:41:17.

they should have been on overtime. Thank you. Would my honourable

:41:18.:41:23.

friend agree with me and constituents in my constituency of

:41:24.:41:27.

Eastleigh that that notice period for some of these women was simply

:41:28.:41:32.

far too short and that we hope to hear also from the Minister today

:41:33.:41:35.

agreeing that it's a great cause of regret from those, for those women

:41:36.:41:40.

that the largest group of state pension age increases got less than

:41:41.:41:46.

sadly eight years to plan for this? I thank my honourable friend is

:41:47.:41:49.

making that point and I know she's led a campaign in her constituency

:41:50.:41:52.

to descend and it would be ideal to hear from a minister. I believe is

:41:53.:41:56.

the pensions act requires ten years' notification for the 95 change I

:41:57.:42:02.

believe 15 years was implemented but for the 2011 my understanding is as

:42:03.:42:05.

my honourable friend has mentioned it has been a to five years and

:42:06.:42:09.

having not been in this place at that time I'm very keen to find out

:42:10.:42:10.

more. Where I have issues with the motion

:42:11.:42:19.

is that whilst I agree very much with the concerns being raised I do

:42:20.:42:23.

not ultimately see a remedy before us. Having stood on a manifesto

:42:24.:42:28.

commitment which pledged to deliver our budget surplus by 2020 it would

:42:29.:42:32.

mean that compensating for this matter would have to be paid for by

:42:33.:42:38.

another group of my constituents. I have real concerns over another age

:42:39.:42:43.

group in my constituency, those in their 20s and 30s who are sometimes

:42:44.:42:47.

referred to as the packhorse generation. Because they asked at

:42:48.:42:52.

all the debts from university, which I and many others from my age group

:42:53.:42:56.

and above did not have to endure. They are not in receipt of

:42:57.:43:00.

occupational pension schemes, they are paying high rent levels and

:43:01.:43:03.

struggling to afford a home of their own. They are perhaps also likely to

:43:04.:43:09.

be the subject of future changes in decades to come if life expectancy

:43:10.:43:14.

levels continue to increase. I will not, I will make some progress if I

:43:15.:43:18.

may, with respect. Whilst I would be keen for the government to assess

:43:19.:43:22.

what more can be done to help those women who are being impacted by the

:43:23.:43:26.

pension changes, I am conscious that before my election to this place the

:43:27.:43:31.

government conducted a review and allocated over ?1 billion to

:43:32.:43:35.

mitigate against the worst affected. Further mitigation, if introduced,

:43:36.:43:39.

would then reveal the next class of age group to be impacted and we will

:43:40.:43:43.

never move on. If the manifesto of my government is to be enacted this

:43:44.:43:47.

further mitigation would have be paid for by others in society in the

:43:48.:43:53.

form of increased taxes. So Mr Deputy Speaker, to conclude, the

:43:54.:43:56.

issues of pensions is becoming increasingly vexed. Let expectancy

:43:57.:44:02.

post retirement is now much longer than envisaged when pensions

:44:03.:44:06.

calculators were put in place. Additionally and with the advances

:44:07.:44:10.

made to allow those in their 60s to remain fit and active, many people

:44:11.:44:13.

in their 60s and beyond are working in a manner which would not have

:44:14.:44:17.

been envisaged when the pension calculator is put in place. This is

:44:18.:44:21.

a general change in life and working age expectancy and one which we will

:44:22.:44:26.

rightly celebrate as it shows people are living longer and leading fitter

:44:27.:44:28.

lives in advanced years. However it means there is a funding

:44:29.:44:44.

gap and to avoid placing the financial obligation on those

:44:45.:44:46.

currently struggling to get on in their 20s and 30s, it required the

:44:47.:44:49.

country to revise the pension age to take into account the changes in

:44:50.:44:56.

life and work expectancy. By forcing these women to work until 66 he is

:44:57.:45:02.

contradicting himself because that is one of the reason people of my

:45:03.:45:06.

age cannot find work because it is being taken by those trying to

:45:07.:45:11.

secure some sort of income. I thank you for your point but I don't

:45:12.:45:15.

agree. If this change had not been implemented there would be ?30

:45:16.:45:17.

billion having to be found elsewhere. I think, where would that

:45:18.:45:25.

money come from? If not from the generation previous? I will continue

:45:26.:45:32.

to make progress but for me it's a complete contradiction to say that

:45:33.:45:34.

on the one hand something needs to be done but on the other that it

:45:35.:45:38.

won't impact other taxpayers over the generations. To finalise Mr

:45:39.:45:43.

Deputy Speaker I do have the greatest of sympathy for those

:45:44.:45:47.

caught by the changes and have to revise the planned accordingly. This

:45:48.:45:50.

however is a settled matter and I worry about the impact on others if

:45:51.:46:00.

changes are now made. Have a million women and over three and a half

:46:01.:46:02.

thousand of those living in my constituency in Swansea... It be a

:46:03.:46:07.

five and a half minute on it from on. Thank you, we are asking this

:46:08.:46:12.

government why they have to wait six years longer for the state pension.

:46:13.:46:17.

In their lives they paid national insurance expecting the pension at

:46:18.:46:22.

60 and at that age, it was fixed in 1940 and it was five years younger

:46:23.:46:27.

than men. In 1995 the Conservative government set out a timetable to

:46:28.:46:33.

equalise the pension age for men and women at 65. It fixed the start date

:46:34.:46:39.

15 years ahead to April 2010 and first in the changes slowly so only

:46:40.:46:47.

from April 2020 where women were born in April 1955 would not get

:46:48.:46:52.

their state pension until 65. The changes were largely ignored except

:46:53.:46:55.

for a small section in the financial section of a broadsheet. The women

:46:56.:47:01.

are affected, then age 45, were not warned about it by the Social

:47:02.:47:08.

Security. One of my consist giants has sent Bible information and I

:47:09.:47:15.

would like to thank them -- one of my constituents has sent Bible

:47:16.:47:20.

information. The job market, many are forced to accept zero hour

:47:21.:47:24.

contracts which offer no financial security. Would my honourable friend

:47:25.:47:28.

agree that these women, the backbone of this country, have been betrayed

:47:29.:47:37.

by the party opposite? I certainly would. In 19952020 seemed a long

:47:38.:47:43.

time away. Then in 2007 Labour government decided to increase the

:47:44.:47:49.

retirement age for men and women to 66 but included a caveat. That no

:47:50.:47:56.

changes would be made until 2024. Then in 2011 the Coalition

:47:57.:48:01.

Government, they reneged, unsurprisingly, on that caveat and

:48:02.:48:05.

set a new timetable which was tough on women and broke a pledge that

:48:06.:48:09.

there would be no change until after 2020. With the honourable lady

:48:10.:48:16.

access that it is not the only way in which older women have been

:48:17.:48:19.

discriminated against, the raising of the tax threshold disadvantages

:48:20.:48:24.

women more than other groups, the pay gap is bigger than any other, we

:48:25.:48:30.

need to hear more clearly the voice of older women in politics because

:48:31.:48:33.

it's being completely ignored by this government. I agree entirely

:48:34.:48:39.

and would consider myself to be in the age group to be an older women

:48:40.:48:42.

in politics. LAUGHTER Thank you. Have a million women have

:48:43.:48:51.

their pension postponed further in 2011. -- have a million. One of

:48:52.:48:57.

those affected is a lady called Lynn Phillips, she was born in 1954 and I

:48:58.:49:02.

think she is in the gallery, she will be almost 65 and eight months

:49:03.:49:08.

when she gets her pension in January 20 20. Almost six years after she

:49:09.:49:13.

originally expected it. In May last year when she was 60 it was only in

:49:14.:49:20.

2011 that she read about the new plans and realised that her state

:49:21.:49:24.

pension had already been raised to 64 and she was sock to to discover

:49:25.:49:29.

it would be pushed further 18 months into the future until she was 65 and

:49:30.:49:37.

a half. Altogether have million women face an extra delay of more

:49:38.:49:43.

than one year and 300,000 face an extra weight of 18 months. The delay

:49:44.:49:51.

will cost them in excess of ?12,000 each in loss state pension. This

:49:52.:49:55.

money is very difficult to replace. Few have country company pensions

:49:56.:50:02.

because many companies excluded women and part-timers from the

:50:03.:50:07.

schemes. About half of women between the age group were not in work, many

:50:08.:50:11.

of them as we have already heard were the backbone of this country,

:50:12.:50:17.

caring for children and heard orally relatives. Finding a part-time job

:50:18.:50:22.

in the current situation, or a low paid job is ludicrous. The changes

:50:23.:50:29.

to women are categorically unfair. And unjust. Lending, along with

:50:30.:50:35.

other affected women started to campaign to push this government

:50:36.:50:40.

into a compromise agreement for those who are most affected.

:50:41.:50:44.

Possibly in the form of a transitional payment which from my

:50:45.:50:48.

understanding the secretary of state of the DWP in 2011 promised to look

:50:49.:50:52.

at. Surprise, surprise, they never did. It is this campaign which have

:50:53.:51:00.

been the inspiration behind this debate. They other ones who have

:51:01.:51:04.

made us sit up and think. Each one of us will be able to tell

:51:05.:51:10.

constituents who has been affected by this gross injustice. Women who

:51:11.:51:14.

have worked and paid a contribution or those who have spent the majority

:51:15.:51:18.

of their adult lives bringing up the children of this nation, each will

:51:19.:51:21.

have different circumstances but they will all tell you that had they

:51:22.:51:26.

been written to in 1995 and told of the changes they would have made

:51:27.:51:30.

appropriate arrangements at that time. Accepts that the pension age

:51:31.:51:37.

must rise as people live longer but they argue, and I feel most on the

:51:38.:51:40.

side of the house would agree, that it is not fair to women who are not

:51:41.:51:47.

personally informed in either 1995 or 2011. But beware, they have a

:51:48.:51:52.

sting in their tail. Given the power of the argument and the ability to

:51:53.:51:57.

attract the attention of many in this place, there are demands for

:51:58.:52:01.

fairness is a very compelling argument. It is a simple message and

:52:02.:52:06.

the only ask for fairness. I would say to the Minister, do not

:52:07.:52:10.

underestimate the power of that lobby. They have managed to mobilise

:52:11.:52:18.

over 107,000 signatures to a petition for in excess of what is

:52:19.:52:22.

needed to be heard in this chamber. They managed to raise funds through

:52:23.:52:27.

crowdfunding to engage the services of a barrister in four days and from

:52:28.:52:34.

eye contact with them I can tell you they want justice. The bars in the

:52:35.:52:38.

air from the campaign will not rest until they get it.

:52:39.:52:48.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, may I first of all congratulate the

:52:49.:52:53.

honourable member for Paisley renders you south for securing this

:52:54.:53:02.

debate -- Paisley Renfrewshire South. I also congratulate the

:53:03.:53:05.

magnificent campaign, had they not done this idea it would have gone an

:53:06.:53:14.

noticed. The state pension age for women increased from 60 to 65 over a

:53:15.:53:23.

period April 2010-2020. It was not a short notice change, 15 years but in

:53:24.:53:29.

a debate in October 2013 the Minister Steve Webb accepted that

:53:30.:53:33.

some women did not know about it at the time. They went on to say that

:53:34.:53:37.

although it was all over the papers at the time, these women were a long

:53:38.:53:41.

way from pension age and probably turned the page when they saw the

:53:42.:53:46.

word pension. What a Labour government to expect people to find

:53:47.:53:50.

out. The Coalition Government legislated in the pensions act 2011

:53:51.:53:59.

to accelerate the rate raised to 65 in November 2000 and 18. It also

:54:00.:54:06.

intended to equalise state pension, with then rise to 66 by April 20 20.

:54:07.:54:13.

But this was amended during the debate, Rachel Reeves the Shadow

:54:14.:54:17.

minister expressed concerns and largely because of that it was

:54:18.:54:21.

amended and they got a repeat of six months. Government seems to think

:54:22.:54:26.

that is some compensation. I will not see much of the impact because I

:54:27.:54:32.

think we all know that we should do. One of my constituents and a leading

:54:33.:54:38.

campaigner is sat in the gallery today, she wrote to me and said...

:54:39.:54:45.

Order, I didn't mean to do this and I have tried to ignore it but you

:54:46.:54:48.

are not meant to make reference to the gallery. As much as we

:54:49.:54:52.

appreciate them being here it's meant to be about the chamber. I

:54:53.:54:57.

will not do so again Mr Deputy Speaker. LAUGHTER

:54:58.:55:02.

Women affected were not informed of changes to the system so it came as

:55:03.:55:07.

a complete shock when she discovered that her plans for retirement were

:55:08.:55:11.

in tatters 18 months before her 60th birthday. In 2012 she received a

:55:12.:55:18.

letter saying my new state pension age was 63 years and eight months, I

:55:19.:55:23.

was absolutely shocked because I haven't been told about it before.

:55:24.:55:28.

She explained people had been caught out at you to mismanagement on the

:55:29.:55:33.

half of the DWP following the changes to pension law in 1995 and

:55:34.:55:40.

2011. They said they were caught out in 2011 when the further increase

:55:41.:55:43.

was introduced again and claim with little modification there retirement

:55:44.:55:50.

age. She goes on to say that many women having to dip into their

:55:51.:55:54.

savings to survive. Not relax and enjoy retirement as they had

:55:55.:56:01.

intended and planned. And less people requested a pension forecast

:56:02.:56:06.

they would not have known at all. All we are asking for is fair,

:56:07.:56:11.

transitional arrangement, some consideration. They have raised very

:56:12.:56:14.

important concerns about the changes affected millions of women born

:56:15.:56:19.

throughout the 1950s who are unfairly bearing the burden of the

:56:20.:56:26.

increase in state pension age. In 2000 for the DWP research saw that

:56:27.:56:31.

only 43% of those affected by 1995 were able to identify their

:56:32.:56:41.

retirement age. In 2008 there was a social reform that less than 43%

:56:42.:56:51.

were aware of. It has left many women in financial hardship. She

:56:52.:56:56.

goes on to say and this is really concerning Mr Deputy Speaker, Madam

:56:57.:57:00.

Deputy Speaker LAUGHTER She points out that the privileged

:57:01.:57:06.

people such as ours, MPs, judges and civil servants have had their

:57:07.:57:10.

occupational pensions protected for those within ten years of their

:57:11.:57:15.

normal retirement age. So why are women not being treated the same?

:57:16.:57:21.

Why are they not afforded the same protection? Looking ahead, ten years

:57:22.:57:25.

notice would be given for any future changes to the state pension age to

:57:26.:57:28.

cope with changes circumstances, is that not an admission that this was

:57:29.:57:34.

wrong? Government has said it will not be revisiting the state pension

:57:35.:57:42.

age arrangements for women affected by the 1995 or 2011 act. Madam

:57:43.:57:47.

Deputy Speaker these women have been dealt a severe in just blow and the

:57:48.:57:54.

government must revisit this and address, give some attention and

:57:55.:57:58.

give some address to these complaints.

:57:59.:58:04.

I'm concerned to start with just that some of the members opposite,

:58:05.:58:09.

who have spoken and in this debate colours appear to have missed much

:58:10.:58:13.

of the main point of it. For clarity can I remind them of the opening

:58:14.:58:18.

line of the motion, that this House, while welcoming the equalisation of

:58:19.:58:22.

the state pension age. I don't dig anyone is suggesting there is in the

:58:23.:58:27.

real argument to be made for equalisation of the pension age of

:58:28.:58:29.

wet men and women and serious long-term pressures which make it

:58:30.:58:32.

something which should be addressed with some degree of urgency, but

:58:33.:58:36.

there is a fairness argument to be made about the way in which it

:58:37.:58:41.

should be done. I also have had a succession of constituents

:58:42.:58:43.

contacting me about this, a succession of women who appreciate

:58:44.:58:47.

that action needs to be taken but who are now exasperated at a later

:58:48.:58:51.

by the continual shifting of the goalposts and what they see as the

:58:52.:58:55.

unfairness of not knowing where the finishing line will be, just to mix

:58:56.:58:59.

my sporting metaphors. Not knowing where they are likely to be able to

:59:00.:59:05.

retire. They have accepted the first change is something which had to

:59:06.:59:08.

happen which adversely affected them perhaps, but they were persuaded

:59:09.:59:12.

that changes needed to take place. I'm not trying to claim they were

:59:13.:59:15.

delighted but they did at least accepted. What worries them and

:59:16.:59:20.

women throughout the UK is that the first change proved not to be

:59:21.:59:22.

sufficient, that the second came without warning, and that there is

:59:23.:59:28.

no guarantee all probability of belief even that this will be the

:59:29.:59:33.

final change. These are women as has been mentioned who worked through

:59:34.:59:35.

times when the working environment for women was far harsher than it is

:59:36.:59:40.

now even, who suffered a more blatant sexism that is the case for

:59:41.:59:42.

younger women entering the workplace now. I'm grateful to her giving way

:59:43.:59:50.

and she's making a powerful case about how unfair the situation is.

:59:51.:59:54.

Would she agree there's a particular unfairness for women be born between

:59:55.:00:01.

1951-53, like my constituent Kirby, left off worse off on a weekly basis

:00:02.:00:06.

because she will not qualify for the state pension whereas men will cut

:00:07.:00:09.

and it would be simple to solve the problem by allowing women in her

:00:10.:00:17.

position to opt for the single tier pension. My honourable friend makes

:00:18.:00:24.

a good point. Women were forced to accept being passed over for

:00:25.:00:28.

promotion, some of fighting for compensation for unequal pay, who

:00:29.:00:31.

were given frankly scant consideration when pregnancy and

:00:32.:00:35.

mother had forced time away from the workplace. They surely deserve a

:00:36.:00:38.

little more consideration from the government than they have been given

:00:39.:00:43.

so far. For picking yourself up and getting yourself back into the

:00:44.:00:46.

workplace with the same as you have before get smaller and more

:00:47.:00:48.

difficult if you keep feeling that you are getting kicked back at every

:00:49.:00:55.

turn. I would accept that Barras -- Baroness Altman has a track record

:00:56.:00:58.

of campaigning to see some justice in this field and I welcome the fact

:00:59.:01:02.

we have someone with such a track record as pensions minister, but she

:01:03.:01:07.

appears to be a lonely figure in this government. The pressure being

:01:08.:01:09.

applied by the Chancellor and the Prime Minister to drive down public

:01:10.:01:12.

spending means that little can be done by the Baroness on her own. The

:01:13.:01:18.

strange what I would call worship of the austerity idle con strains

:01:19.:01:25.

anything that looked like fairness or help for the poor or

:01:26.:01:29.

disadvantaged. With the government has ordered its benefits in full

:01:30.:01:32.

flight we should remember that pensions and pensioners account for

:01:33.:01:36.

the largest share of benefits spending in the UK and that the

:01:37.:01:42.

Chancellor, yes, of course. The with the honourable lady agree that

:01:43.:01:44.

giving the Coalition Government minister Steve Webb was aware and

:01:45.:01:49.

indicated that not everyone affected by the changes were aware of them,

:01:50.:01:53.

the government must take responsibility for that and

:01:54.:01:56.

questions must be asked as to why women were not more fully informed

:01:57.:02:00.

by the government and why they were left in the dark for so long. I

:02:01.:02:04.

agree with my honourable friend and I look forward to the Minister

:02:05.:02:06.

addressing those points when he comes to speak later. With the

:02:07.:02:11.

government assault against benefits in full flight we should remember

:02:12.:02:15.

pensions and pensioners account for the largest share of benefits

:02:16.:02:19.

spending in the UK and the Chancellor's gimlet eye will turn

:02:20.:02:22.

inexorably towards pension provision when the other stones have been bled

:02:23.:02:26.

dry. I don't think any working woman is asking for special treatment on

:02:27.:02:30.

her pension. I certainly don't think that any of the women that contacted

:02:31.:02:35.

those many women who have contacted their MPs with concerns over these

:02:36.:02:39.

changes is a shirker or a scrounger. They simply want a bit of fairness

:02:40.:02:45.

and a sound knowledge of what the future is likely to bring. Women who

:02:46.:02:49.

started their working lives under one set of pension rules look like

:02:50.:02:53.

they may finish their working lives under the third set of pension rules

:02:54.:02:57.

of providing there is no further changes down the line. Providing

:02:58.:03:01.

these women with as much certainty as can be mustered and kicking sure

:03:02.:03:06.

that they will not lose financially has to be the watchword for the

:03:07.:03:10.

government over these changes. A gentle transition as has been

:03:11.:03:13.

suggested would be far more in keeping with making sure we don't

:03:14.:03:16.

act Sasse Beit pensioner poverty or drive more of -- exacerbate

:03:17.:03:21.

pensioner poverty or drive more of the most vulnerable members of

:03:22.:03:24.

society into poverty. I urge the government and the Minister to keep

:03:25.:03:32.

that in mind. Thank you very much, Madame Deputy Speaker. I'd like to

:03:33.:03:34.

start by congratulating my honourable friend the member for

:03:35.:03:39.

Paisley -- Paisley and Renfrewshire South for securing this important

:03:40.:03:41.

debate and for moving the motion with such an impassioned articulate

:03:42.:03:46.

and typically powerful speech. I must also pay tribute to the

:03:47.:03:50.

honourable member for Worsley and Eccles so her speech and for her

:03:51.:03:57.

co-signature of this motion. Also a tribute to pay to my noble friend

:03:58.:04:01.

the member is the members for the coldly and Ross Tara Moore caber who

:04:02.:04:03.

have consistently and effectively raised this issue since their

:04:04.:04:10.

election in May. In the same token I must pay tribute to the work of the

:04:11.:04:14.

Women Against State Pension Inequality up their campaign to urge

:04:15.:04:17.

this government is to make a fair transitional state pension

:04:18.:04:21.

arrangements for women born after the 6th of April 1951 and in

:04:22.:04:25.

particular I think it's important to pay and show our appreciation to Ann

:04:26.:04:28.

keen, the person who first raised this petition on this issue after

:04:29.:04:33.

receiving a letter from the DWP to say that her expected retirement age

:04:34.:04:38.

had been increased. Far from 15 or indeed five years' notice, she was

:04:39.:04:43.

only given 18 months before her 60th birthday. What an absolute scandal

:04:44.:04:47.

and disgrace. The petition last night had over 107, I imagine

:04:48.:04:54.

approaching 108,000 signatures now, a true testament to all those whose

:04:55.:04:57.

whole have worked hard to bring this to the government's attention

:04:58.:05:02.

including constituents of mine in Airdrie and short. This government

:05:03.:05:06.

is shifting the goalposts at such short notice for hard-working women.

:05:07.:05:11.

Women who have gone to work, who have bettered our industries, women

:05:12.:05:15.

who have raised children, who are supported families, who have not had

:05:16.:05:20.

equal employment opportunities, which created independent pension

:05:21.:05:24.

funds, or had access to independent pension funds as we have today.

:05:25.:05:27.

Women who have simply not had the opportunities we have. Women who

:05:28.:05:32.

have made enormous contributions to our society to the betterment of us

:05:33.:05:40.

all. These women will feed the retirement age rise without fair or

:05:41.:05:45.

proper notice. Yes, I will. Will he agree with me that the government

:05:46.:05:49.

Minister must come to the dispatch box and explain the constituents of

:05:50.:05:53.

mine in Livingston, some of whom have raised the issue back they have

:05:54.:05:57.

retired up and finish their employment before they had heard the

:05:58.:06:00.

news and many had not had time to prepare or save before this news was

:06:01.:06:05.

upon them. I absolutely agree sadly this is a typical story which has

:06:06.:06:10.

been played out across this chamber today, so I wholeheartedly agree.

:06:11.:06:14.

It's this simple but dramatic injustice that is so galling. The

:06:15.:06:19.

truth is that women born in the 1950s will be disproportionately

:06:20.:06:22.

burdened by the government's plan for many reasons, not least because

:06:23.:06:27.

men of the same age are and have long been a better position to at

:06:28.:06:31.

through savings private defined through savings private defined

:06:32.:06:37.

contribution pension scheme. The pensions policy in their submission

:06:38.:06:42.

to the DWP select committee on the government's pension reforms

:06:43.:06:45.

outlined this very point further by illustrating that only 65% of women

:06:46.:06:51.

in the 55-59 year age range are economically active, compared to

:06:52.:06:55.

around 76% of men, and the gap is even more prevalent when considering

:06:56.:07:00.

those in the 60-64 age bracket, where 34% of women are currently

:07:01.:07:08.

active compared to 54% of men. I thank you for giving way and he's

:07:09.:07:11.

making excellent points. Would he agree with me that some of the

:07:12.:07:14.

members opposite seem not to recognise the sense of injustice and

:07:15.:07:18.

grievance that there is a most women born in the mid-19 50s, women like

:07:19.:07:23.

Andrea Gregory and Wilma in my constituency have I've worked all

:07:24.:07:26.

their lives, paid all their taxes and have had their retirement

:07:27.:07:29.

postponed by the state not once, but twice. The word they use is robbery.

:07:30.:07:34.

They feel they are being made to pay for financial crisis that was not of

:07:35.:07:39.

their making. I absolutely wholeheartedly agree. I have to say

:07:40.:07:42.

there have been some very noteworthy speeches from the benches opposite

:07:43.:07:49.

but some sadly but haven't met the same standard of some of their

:07:50.:07:52.

colleagues and I hope the minister when he comes to the dispatch box

:07:53.:07:56.

will show some contrition here and bring forward some transitional

:07:57.:08:02.

arrangements. Many women who have had their retirement plans shattered

:08:03.:08:05.

will be forced through no fault of their own to accept zero hours

:08:06.:08:09.

contracts, temporary and low paid contracts which offer no financial

:08:10.:08:13.

security and poor return for the label what are the time they

:08:14.:08:16.

relatively recently expected to be enjoying a hard earned retirement.

:08:17.:08:19.

Little if any sort has been shown for the many women who care for

:08:20.:08:24.

their grandchildren, adult -- elderly relatives, who show it's not

:08:25.:08:28.

always possible to return to work in these circumstances and at this time

:08:29.:08:34.

of their lives. My -- I and my colleagues and members from all

:08:35.:08:39.

sides of the house agree with the equalisation of the state pension

:08:40.:08:41.

age, it is however the increased speed of these plans that is of so

:08:42.:08:47.

much concern, with poor notice and no transition. The government is

:08:48.:08:50.

betraying women and I'm frankly worried we will see further undue

:08:51.:08:54.

hardship if the government does not address the inequality so blatantly

:08:55.:08:58.

evident it would appear that by not transitioning this is another

:08:59.:09:01.

example of the government making cuts in pursuit of their budget

:09:02.:09:06.

surplus holy Grail without any consideration of the impact. In

:09:07.:09:09.

conclusion the government must take some responsibility for their

:09:10.:09:14.

failure to notify, not to notify and fully prepare women follow longer

:09:15.:09:18.

wait. This means bringing forward traditional -- traditional

:09:19.:09:21.

protection and writing injustice for those already and set to be

:09:22.:09:25.

impacted. I hope we won't get the same complacent ministerial reply to

:09:26.:09:29.

the recent Westminster Hall debate I was involved in. The government are

:09:30.:09:33.

being warned here today this campaign will not go away. The women

:09:34.:09:39.

in the Waspi campaign will fight this all the way and will be

:09:40.:09:42.

supported wholeheartedly by my colleagues on the SNP benches and

:09:43.:09:47.

the benches next door on the Labour side. The government needs to sort

:09:48.:09:50.

this out with the same speed by which they deliver tax cuts for the

:09:51.:09:54.

rich when they got the opportunity, all this government will forever be

:09:55.:09:58.

remembered for its betrayal of pensioners and female pensioners in

:09:59.:10:04.

particular. Order, I'm sorry to say I will have to drop the speech limit

:10:05.:10:08.

down to three minutes and ask people to keep interventions to an absolute

:10:09.:10:12.

minimum, and that starts from now in order we can wind up in time. It's a

:10:13.:10:18.

pleasure to take part in this backbench business committee debate.

:10:19.:10:21.

I commend the honourable lady for her opening remarks. I pay tribute

:10:22.:10:27.

to the Waspi campaign and in particular to Mhairi and all the

:10:28.:10:33.

other ladies that helps campaign on this very important issue. I've

:10:34.:10:37.

worked long and hard with them over the past few months. We've had

:10:38.:10:40.

meetings with my honourable friend the member for Eccles and Worsley

:10:41.:10:46.

and my honourable friend on the Labour front bench. I've lobbied my

:10:47.:10:54.

own constituents with the Waspi group in Morrisons in Denton

:10:55.:10:58.

recently and indeed I think I was the first Madame Deputy Speaker to

:10:59.:11:01.

raise this issue at Prime Minister's Question Time in this Parliament, so

:11:02.:11:06.

I'm very glad it's now been brought to the floor of the house in a full

:11:07.:11:10.

debate, because there has been a very real injustice done to this

:11:11.:11:16.

group of women from the 1950s. We can go through all the history

:11:17.:11:20.

again. There have been two changes to their state pension age and if

:11:21.:11:24.

that bad enough the real injustice to them as been the acceleration of

:11:25.:11:29.

the process, which has really left lots of women who weren't expecting

:11:30.:11:39.

to have these changes to have to make alternative arrangements. And

:11:40.:11:41.

that is where the real injustice lies. Because when it came to the

:11:42.:11:48.

private pensions of Members of Parliament, those that were within

:11:49.:11:53.

ten years of their normal state pension age were able to remain on

:11:54.:11:57.

the old scheme, but when it comes to this group of women they have had no

:11:58.:12:02.

chance whatsoever to be able to put in place their own alternative

:12:03.:12:05.

arrangements. I will give way. We have been asked what the

:12:06.:12:14.

transitional arrangement would be that I have given examples, some

:12:15.:12:19.

countries have rich pensions, some look after people made redundant,

:12:20.:12:22.

it's up to the government to have done this, to come up with some

:12:23.:12:28.

ideas. My honourable friend is absolutely right, let's go back to

:12:29.:12:33.

2011 when this pensions act was being debated in this House of

:12:34.:12:36.

Commons. It was the current Secretary of State who said himself,

:12:37.:12:42.

and I quote, we will consider a transitional arrangement. Where are

:12:43.:12:47.

they? Because those ladies are still waiting, it's about time the

:12:48.:12:50.

minister came to this dispatch box and set out what these transitional

:12:51.:12:53.

arrangements are going to be because these women cannot wait forever. I

:12:54.:12:59.

have to say Madam Deputy Speaker that we have already had the first

:13:00.:13:02.

U-turn from the former pensions minister who said he wasn't properly

:13:03.:13:08.

briefed, that says a lot about the calibre of Liberal Democrat

:13:09.:13:10.

ministers in the former Coalition Government but now we have pensions

:13:11.:13:14.

minister in the other place who was a champion for these ladies up until

:13:15.:13:18.

the point she took the Queen 's shelling and now says she cannot do

:13:19.:13:23.

anything about it. What nonsense, what is the point of having a

:13:24.:13:27.

minister if a minister can do anything about it! It is time

:13:28.:13:31.

ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions actually got off their

:13:32.:13:34.

backsides and did something to help these women because I will end

:13:35.:13:42.

following on from my honourable friend, some friendly advice to the

:13:43.:13:47.

Minister and I appreciate it's not his area of responsibility, it's the

:13:48.:13:50.

noble lady at the other end who speaks on pensions issues, but mine

:13:51.:13:56.

honourable friend likened the ladies to wasps and I would say to him

:13:57.:14:01.

this, wasps can be pests, nuisances and cannot be easily bashed away and

:14:02.:14:06.

when you do they get angry and come back. And if you really annoy them

:14:07.:14:10.

they will sting you, and unlike bees they can sting you more than once!

:14:11.:14:14.

Lets have some justice for these ladies because it is long overdue! I

:14:15.:14:20.

would like to congratulate my honourable friend from my

:14:21.:14:23.

neighbouring constituency for bringing this debate to the house to

:14:24.:14:28.

the backbench committee and opening the debate so power play. Is --

:14:29.:14:35.

power play. I have learned of women affected by this, unable to afford

:14:36.:14:42.

the necessary housing repairs and stories of marriages breaking up due

:14:43.:14:46.

to financial pressures forced upon them through no fault of their own.

:14:47.:14:47.

I met I am grateful, will he agree it is

:14:48.:15:15.

frankly ridiculous that women should have such short notice or no notice

:15:16.:15:19.

at all. One of my constituents found out she had an extra six years to

:15:20.:15:24.

wait from her insurance salesman, not from the government. I could not

:15:25.:15:31.

agree more, I have just received an e-mail in the last hour from a

:15:32.:15:35.

constituent who turns 60 in March and was not aware of these changes

:15:36.:15:39.

and will be meeting with me tomorrow at surgery. It's still going on and

:15:40.:15:43.

afraid. My shorter contribution to this debate will centre on the idea

:15:44.:15:48.

of fairness. It's only fair that both sexes receive the state pension

:15:49.:15:52.

at the same age but the rapid rise in the age of eligibility has been

:15:53.:15:55.

and therefore hard-working men and women who have paid into the system

:15:56.:16:00.

all their lives expecting in good faith... Would my honourable friend

:16:01.:16:04.

agree that the changes to the state pension that women are finding out

:16:05.:16:08.

that retirement is for, five, six years brother away than expected

:16:09.:16:12.

that this doesn't just lead to financial difficulties, it is

:16:13.:16:15.

actually cruel and heartless and comes in the context of a lifetime

:16:16.:16:22.

of inequality and Lope faced by party many women? That point has

:16:23.:16:30.

been made, I have had to delete that section from my speech due to time

:16:31.:16:33.

on it so I am glad she has made the point for me. The combination of the

:16:34.:16:42.

equalisation and increasing the pension age has been devastating for

:16:43.:16:47.

someone in. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I already stated, Waspy have no

:16:48.:16:55.

problem with the policy but its implementation. These changes have

:16:56.:16:57.

had a significant impact on a large group of women. The changes mean

:16:58.:17:04.

some women make up to wait an additional six years until they

:17:05.:17:07.

receive a state pension. From the first day of their working lives

:17:08.:17:11.

these women have been advised to plan accordingly and that the last

:17:12.:17:13.

minute the government have altered the plans these women have had for

:17:14.:17:18.

years. This is why women feel deeply aggrieved and betrayed by the

:17:19.:17:24.

actions of subsequent governments. The Secretary of State for Work and

:17:25.:17:27.

Pensions, in answer to my written question for the communication of

:17:28.:17:31.

these changes, replied that the DWP wrote to all individuals are

:17:32.:17:35.

affected to inform them of these changes. However from speaking to

:17:36.:17:38.

Waspy and local constituents this does not appear to have happen in

:17:39.:17:43.

the scale or degree indicated by the Secretary of State. Women said they

:17:44.:17:46.

received the letter far too late with only a few months notice of the

:17:47.:17:52.

pension age increasing. I have also heard of a letter being sent to the

:17:53.:17:55.

wrong address and in one case a constituent at my surgery who had no

:17:56.:18:00.

knowledge whatever of the changes made. It has come to light the

:18:01.:18:07.

government only informed women affected 14 years after the changes

:18:08.:18:13.

were made. Would the honourable member Agri there has been some

:18:14.:18:19.

maladministration, I have just heard from our constituent who received a

:18:20.:18:23.

letter when she turned 52 say her retirement age or be in 2004, she

:18:24.:18:28.

was born in 1954, most unfair she has not only been losing out but has

:18:29.:18:32.

been misinformed. There seems to be a catalogue of women that this has

:18:33.:18:40.

happened to, it's a disgrace. I make the point we encourage individuals

:18:41.:18:44.

to plan for the future but if during their working lives the government

:18:45.:18:48.

makes changes to state pension it's only appropriate and fair that the

:18:49.:18:50.

government communicate these changes adequately. I called one of my

:18:51.:18:56.

constituents yesterday and asked how they would like the government to

:18:57.:18:59.

respond to this issue and her own request was simple, she wants the

:19:00.:19:04.

government to accept it made the change to hard and fast. This should

:19:05.:19:08.

not be a difficult concession in the previous pension minister has

:19:09.:19:12.

already accepted mistakes were made. It's important the government

:19:13.:19:15.

learned from them stakes made and reviews the way changes are

:19:16.:19:19.

introduced. We need clear channels of medication between the DWP and

:19:20.:19:23.

individuals when it comes to matters relating to pensions. I hear all too

:19:24.:19:27.

often that the information sent out is confusing and unclear. I would

:19:28.:19:30.

ask the current government to sit down with Waspy and consider a some

:19:31.:19:35.

of the financial stress these changes have brought and perhaps

:19:36.:19:38.

extended time frame in which these changes are made. We know the

:19:39.:19:43.

problem, we cannot allow cack-handed policy implications to devastate the

:19:44.:19:48.

lives of so many people who have worked so hard for so long. The

:19:49.:19:52.

government cannot shirk their obligations and must accept

:19:53.:19:54.

responsibility, apologise and correct this as a matter of urgency.

:19:55.:19:58.

Anything else was something not suffice. A reminder that there are

:19:59.:20:03.

nine more people waiting to catch my eye and we need to start winding up

:20:04.:20:08.

at quarter past. If people insist on taking more interventions as they

:20:09.:20:12.

are doing there will be people who are not called to speak so with that

:20:13.:20:16.

in mind I call Phillipa Whitford. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, a

:20:17.:20:21.

lot of the issues have been covered, the issue of equalisation is

:20:22.:20:26.

accepted but to respond to a member opposite who is no longer in his

:20:27.:20:31.

place, we pointed out that life expectancy increase is not equal. In

:20:32.:20:37.

Scotland and parts of Scotland we have huge differences in life

:20:38.:20:42.

expectancy. That particularly goes with wealth. Women who are lower

:20:43.:20:47.

paid, who are unlikely to have a decent pension, who have no chance

:20:48.:20:51.

of having any other kind of pension are exactly the ones who do not get

:20:52.:20:55.

this extended life expectancy. We also heard that from one of the

:20:56.:21:01.

members opposite, that women were definitely written to and maybe they

:21:02.:21:07.

chose to ignore it. But we have from a FOIA 3231 that the campaign of

:21:08.:21:14.

information was from 2009-2013, 14 years later. I am sad to challenge

:21:15.:21:18.

to the members further along these benches by the DWP in 2004, which

:21:19.:21:23.

was a Labour government, did recognise that from the survey only

:21:24.:21:28.

46% of women knew what was coming. So for most of these women it is not

:21:29.:21:33.

an extension of a year or 18 months, it is literally a change from 60 to

:21:34.:21:43.

66. There were other changes... Many thanks for giving way, exactly on

:21:44.:21:50.

that point, one of my constituents contacted me this week to say she

:21:51.:21:55.

had only heard through word-of-mouth and a web search regarding these

:21:56.:22:01.

changes when 59 of the government 's own website suggested she could

:22:02.:22:05.

retire at 62 but this was changed and put at 264. These changes are so

:22:06.:22:12.

unfair and penalising people at the latter stages when they can make no

:22:13.:22:17.

alternative arrangements. I think we have heard this across the chamber,

:22:18.:22:23.

the lack of communication, the acceleration to the age extension

:22:24.:22:26.

and the fact women couldn't do anything about it. Also it is built

:22:27.:22:31.

on literally a generation of women who had a lifetime of poor pay. We

:22:32.:22:35.

need to think about that going forward, twin role and does not

:22:36.:22:39.

cover the modern worker who has multiple many jobs, their combined

:22:40.:22:47.

earnings are not considered and therefore we will have another

:22:48.:22:50.

debate in 30 years of people who have been left with no pension

:22:51.:22:53.

because of current working approaches. We know that arrived

:22:54.:22:59.

pension benefit from their husbands is not counted, that in 2016, only

:23:00.:23:06.

22% of women who will retire this year will qualify for the fool flat

:23:07.:23:21.

rate pension. This is an expect be. They do not qualify for free

:23:22.:23:25.

transport here in England, for free prescriptions or any other benefits

:23:26.:23:33.

like fuel for cold weather. It's an multiple and accelerating problem

:23:34.:23:37.

for these women. It asked from the benches opposite which have now got

:23:38.:23:41.

horrifically empty I must say for such an important debate, come up

:23:42.:23:46.

with a solution. I understand each MRC is looking at the higher rate

:23:47.:23:51.

pension relief and they may actually claw back 45 billion from that. That

:23:52.:23:55.

more than covers the 30 billion we were told would cover pull

:23:56.:24:00.

transitional arrangements. High-level tax relief is for the

:24:01.:24:03.

wealthiest people, the people who this week have already earned in the

:24:04.:24:08.

first proper working week of the year, more than the average wage.

:24:09.:24:13.

Three quarters of them are men. This is the route we should be following,

:24:14.:24:17.

to actually take away money which goes to people who probably despite

:24:18.:24:22.

their long life expectancy will not live long enough to spend it. Share

:24:23.:24:27.

it more equally with women who have been very badly treated. This is an

:24:28.:24:31.

issue of fairness and the government has a responsibility to deal with

:24:32.:24:40.

it. I congratulate and thank my honourable friend for bringing this

:24:41.:24:44.

important issue to the house and for articulating it so passionately and

:24:45.:24:48.

I am glad to see women against state pension and equality are holding us

:24:49.:24:53.

to account despite the problems they have had reaching some MPs. This is

:24:54.:24:58.

a concern for many people across the UK and it continues to gain momentum

:24:59.:25:02.

as the impact on women's lives looms larger. It's important to stress we

:25:03.:25:09.

are in support of the equalisation and Lloyd George actually

:25:10.:25:21.

represented part of my constituency. This was originally put into age at

:25:22.:25:25.

which husbands retired an discrepancy in the age is between

:25:26.:25:29.

husbands and wives and that is no way to be running with modern

:25:30.:25:34.

appropriate way equality. I speak today

:25:35.:25:39.

the accelerated timetable does not give an insufficient time to prepare

:25:40.:25:45.

for retirement. I would like to look particularly at the situation in

:25:46.:25:48.

Wales because the government claims to be making these changes in

:25:49.:25:52.

response to an increasing life expectancy but both life experience

:25:53.:25:56.

and life expectancy vary significantly depending on which

:25:57.:26:00.

part of the UK you look at. Unfortunately this means Wales will

:26:01.:26:03.

be particularly hard hit by these changes. In parts of England for and

:26:04.:26:08.

newborn baby could expect to live to the age of 87 whereas in parts of

:26:09.:26:14.

Wales it might lead to just 76. Income per head is lowest in Wales

:26:15.:26:20.

for all the UK nations. All the UK nations and regions even, at 71.4%

:26:21.:26:25.

of the UK average. Whilst the average gross salary for a Welshman

:26:26.:26:33.

is ?25,200, a in Wales earns an average just ?20,500, a fact which

:26:34.:26:37.

bought this government and Welsh government should be ashamed of.

:26:38.:26:40.

Either retreat that Plaid Cymru welcome is the equal treatment of

:26:41.:26:47.

women but it requires the equal treatment of women in other places.

:26:48.:26:52.

Whilst the UK Government is keen to push ahead with the former as a way

:26:53.:26:55.

to cut social protection budgets it is doing precious little to secure

:26:56.:27:02.

the latter. I urge the government to faze this in over a longer time

:27:03.:27:05.

frame so women nearer retirement are given adequate time to prepare. The

:27:06.:27:09.

current time frame is too fast and will cause an jewel hardship, these

:27:10.:27:13.

women cannot go back and live their lives and live there lives again and

:27:14.:27:16.

they deserve better treatment from the government. I urge the

:27:17.:27:20.

government to rethink and with that, in a case of such fundamental

:27:21.:27:23.

inequality as we are seeing and the case of people who vote, we cannot

:27:24.:27:28.

afford, any of us, not to be considering this in some detail and

:27:29.:27:31.

making sure this is a quality is not allowed to continue.

:27:32.:27:36.

I congratulate the honourable lady for Paisley and Renfrewshire South

:27:37.:27:42.

and my honourable friend for Worsley and Eccles vows for bringing forward

:27:43.:27:47.

this very important motion. The honourable lady for Paisley and

:27:48.:27:51.

Renfrewshire South spoke with such passion and force and characterised

:27:52.:27:57.

the problem that faces many women who were born in the 1950s right

:27:58.:28:01.

throughout Britain and Northern Ireland, who are faced with making

:28:02.:28:05.

decisions that they didn't think they would have to make in such an

:28:06.:28:10.

accelerated fashion. Many of these women are in receipt and have been

:28:11.:28:15.

in receipt of low pay. They undertake owners and very straining

:28:16.:28:21.

type of jobs, in caring professions, whether they are nurses, but many

:28:22.:28:26.

who are home helps who provide care within their own families to ageing

:28:27.:28:31.

parents. All of this places the additional strain upon their health,

:28:32.:28:37.

but that burden doesn't lessen for them because with less money they

:28:38.:28:42.

still have to work and will have to work, because they are facing this

:28:43.:28:48.

pension or deal. A number of women in my own constituency in Southdown,

:28:49.:28:54.

many of them are associated with the Waspi campaign, who I wish to

:28:55.:28:57.

congratulate today, will be affected by these changes through the

:28:58.:29:02.

legislation that went through the Northern Ireland Assembly. The

:29:03.:29:08.

equalisation of the state pension age is in principle to be welcomed

:29:09.:29:12.

but in this symbol of gender equality was accompanied by

:29:13.:29:15.

transitional protection is to ensure that women did not lose out, then

:29:16.:29:21.

that would be better. I do recognise that as life expectancy increases

:29:22.:29:25.

and many people stay in education longer before they enter employment,

:29:26.:29:31.

the pensions system must adapt. However, a number of the women in

:29:32.:29:35.

lesser paid as I have said, home helps and carers and more physically

:29:36.:29:40.

straining jobs, may not necessarily enjoyed such an increase in life

:29:41.:29:45.

expectancy. They are the very people who are likely to suffer most as a

:29:46.:29:51.

result of these changes without the right time and adequate time to

:29:52.:29:57.

prepare. That is the injustice. That is the unfairness. That is the issue

:29:58.:30:02.

that this government needs to address now, which the previous

:30:03.:30:08.

Coalition Government failed to recognise and wanted ordinary women

:30:09.:30:13.

in our society to pay for the financial crisis. People who had

:30:14.:30:22.

nothing to do with that, and the responsibility for that should not

:30:23.:30:24.

lie at the door of those women who were born in the early 1950s. Now we

:30:25.:30:29.

have women who will be expected to work for longer, but for a smaller

:30:30.:30:35.

pensions and that which they had expected and planned for. No

:30:36.:30:38.

planning had taken place by these women because they did not realise

:30:39.:30:47.

it was happening. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker for calling me today

:30:48.:30:50.

in this important debate. I'd like to congratulate my honourable friend

:30:51.:30:53.

the member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South for securing this

:30:54.:30:58.

debate on such an important issue. Madame Deputy Speaker no one today

:30:59.:31:02.

has disagreed with the concept of equalisation to bring about the con

:31:03.:31:07.

-- pension age for men and women that promotes gender equality that I

:31:08.:31:12.

have campaigned for. However the way these changes have been in demented

:31:13.:31:15.

amounts to an injustice for women. The injustice comes in the form of a

:31:16.:31:20.

faster roll-out than promised, little or no notice of these

:31:21.:31:24.

changes, and no time for women to make alternative arrangements. And

:31:25.:31:29.

grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. Would she agree with me

:31:30.:31:32.

this is I believe the 10th major change in these women's working

:31:33.:31:37.

lifetimes and it's by far the worst and by far the one that impacts on

:31:38.:31:42.

them the most? An important point to make is perhaps if there had been

:31:43.:31:47.

more women in this House over those years those changes perhaps would

:31:48.:31:51.

not have taken place. Many of the women who were expecting to start

:31:52.:31:54.

drawing their state pension is only found out in 2011 they would the

:31:55.:31:59.

delay. I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work

:32:00.:32:07.

of women against eight quality and -- the women against stated equality

:32:08.:32:11.

and these women have experienced first-hand the consequences of the

:32:12.:32:18.

government failing to communicate significant policy changes. These

:32:19.:32:21.

women were not given sufficient notification. In fact the government

:32:22.:32:25.

did not actively and for many women until 14 years later. That's simply

:32:26.:32:32.

not substantial. When we compare this to the advice of the work and

:32:33.:32:35.

pensions select committee, that suggested ten years, the government

:32:36.:32:41.

view and the Chancellor acknowledged the ten notice must be given in

:32:42.:32:44.

future. To me this sounds like an admission of guilt on something the

:32:45.:32:47.

government must address. The government know they have

:32:48.:32:49.

short-changed these women and they know they must take action so they

:32:50.:32:54.

must now face up to this truth. In my time as an MP I've been contacted

:32:55.:32:59.

by many female constituents. In fact I was contacted by a lady in my

:33:00.:33:04.

constituency. She was born in 1956 and began working in the local

:33:05.:33:09.

council in 1978. The age of retirement impact on her choice of

:33:10.:33:12.

career and on her choice of mortgage. My constituent could have

:33:13.:33:15.

been better prepared for her retirement if she had been given

:33:16.:33:20.

adequate notice. Another constituent told me she had worked in the NHS

:33:21.:33:24.

for 42 years and have retired in anticipation must make with

:33:25.:33:28.

one-year's notice she was informed she would no longer receive that

:33:29.:33:32.

state pension and has since taken on part-time employment to fill in this

:33:33.:33:38.

gap that is simply unacceptable. Of all of the constituents that I spoke

:33:39.:33:42.

to, these similar themes emerged. Women working hard, working less

:33:43.:33:47.

than men and earning less than men, still not being recognised by this

:33:48.:33:49.

government or the contributions that they made the society. In fact I'm

:33:50.:33:55.

sure many of the colleagues on the women and equality is committee, if

:33:56.:33:58.

they could have been here today were it not for a committee visit, would

:33:59.:34:02.

have echoed the same sentiments on the conservative benches. Sadly

:34:03.:34:06.

their colleagues have failed in this regard. This ultimately highlights

:34:07.:34:09.

the submissions that have been given to the committee, an enquiry into

:34:10.:34:13.

the long-term effect of the gender pay gap and the impact of low paid

:34:14.:34:18.

work on women. All fall of the constituents I've spoken to these

:34:19.:34:23.

sentiments are echoed throughout all constituencies across this country.

:34:24.:34:26.

There are women in every single constituency who have signed this

:34:27.:34:30.

petition calling on this government to take action. The way these

:34:31.:34:34.

changes have been fermented is unfair. The women affected have

:34:35.:34:38.

spent years paying into the system and rightly expect to see that

:34:39.:34:42.

through to their retirement. We owe it to these women to make fair

:34:43.:34:46.

transitional state pension agreements for women born in the

:34:47.:34:50.

1950s onwards. Let's hope the government well paid heed to this

:34:51.:34:55.

remark. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd like to briefly talk

:34:56.:34:59.

about the situation of two of the women who have contacted me. The

:35:00.:35:05.

first was born in July 1953 and had expected retirement age of 60. This

:35:06.:35:12.

is increased initially 62 years and three months. She had no problem

:35:13.:35:15.

with this because she had been given plenty of notice and agreed with the

:35:16.:35:19.

gradual move to equality of retirement age for men and women.

:35:20.:35:22.

And of course with no warning the retirement age was increased, so she

:35:23.:35:28.

now has to wait until she's 64 before she gets her higher state

:35:29.:35:32.

pension. The injustice of this is the way in which it has been done,

:35:33.:35:37.

on a sliding scale. This means that some of the people she was in the

:35:38.:35:41.

same class at school with will get their pensions almost two years

:35:42.:35:46.

before she does. This is despite the fact that they have worked for the

:35:47.:35:49.

same amount of time and have the same number of pension units. She is

:35:50.:35:55.

still working, but says she is fortunate because she has a good

:35:56.:35:58.

civil service pension, but she is deeply concerned that many other

:35:59.:36:05.

women rely on their state pension and now find they are waiting as has

:36:06.:36:08.

been discussed this afternoon for many more years to get it. Another

:36:09.:36:12.

constituent of mine is in this unfortunate position. She worked for

:36:13.:36:18.

20 years as a secretary. And although the male workers in the

:36:19.:36:21.

company will automatically enrolled in the company pension scheme, women

:36:22.:36:26.

were not. It was very different for women in those days. She has

:36:27.:36:32.

arthritis and is now continuing to work as a cleaner because she simply

:36:33.:36:36.

can't afford not to. She also agrees with pension reform to equalise the

:36:37.:36:43.

retirement age. This isn't a problem for women. It's the way that it's

:36:44.:36:49.

been done. It is so very upsetting. Younger women have had time to

:36:50.:36:53.

adjust and to plan for these retirement dates and the changes.

:36:54.:36:57.

But women such as my constituents I've just discussed don't have that

:36:58.:37:02.

opportunity. Now I'm willing to give the government the benefit of the

:37:03.:37:05.

doubt, that perhaps they didn't understand just how many women this

:37:06.:37:09.

was going to affect. I can accept that. But what I cannot, I cannot

:37:10.:37:16.

get my head around is why they are refusing to look at it. To me this

:37:17.:37:22.

is simply callous. You know so many women are being affected. You could

:37:23.:37:27.

look, you could listen, you could change things. Madame Deputy

:37:28.:37:33.

Speaker, apologies. So I would ask that the government looks again at

:37:34.:37:39.

how these people have been disproportionately affected, listen

:37:40.:37:42.

to what they are saying, and get up and do something to help. Thank you,

:37:43.:37:50.

Madame Deputy Speaker and happy New Year, although the people I really

:37:51.:37:53.

hope have a happy New Year are the women who have been suffering under

:37:54.:37:58.

this injustice for too long. On the 20th of June 2011, the Work and

:37:59.:38:02.

Pensions Secretary advised MPs during the debate on the 2011 bill

:38:03.:38:08.

that he would be considering transitional arrangements to provide

:38:09.:38:12.

assistance to the worst affected women. Yet later on that year there

:38:13.:38:18.

was only completely inadequate transitional arrangements accepted.

:38:19.:38:24.

In the same debate in 2011, the Hansard record reveals that although

:38:25.:38:27.

concern was expressed by many members in the House, the extent of

:38:28.:38:33.

the problems not least the lack of effective communication support and

:38:34.:38:36.

transition was not as well understood as it is today, thanks to

:38:37.:38:42.

the Waspi ladies. Today gives us an opportunity to begin to set the

:38:43.:38:46.

record straight and to give the government the chance to write it

:38:47.:38:50.

wrong. Much more recently on the 24th of January 2014, Roz Altmann,

:38:51.:38:57.

now the noble Baroness, who has become the pensions minister, wrote

:38:58.:39:04.

this. Women in their late 50s or lower today have been the most

:39:05.:39:07.

disadvantaged by the UK pensions system. She pointed out four years

:39:08.:39:11.

women have been second-class citizens in both state and private

:39:12.:39:17.

pensions. This particularly affects women already in the late 19,

:39:18.:39:22.

already in the late 50s. Women typically earn less than men when

:39:23.:39:26.

they are working. Once again leaving them with less chance to save for a

:39:27.:39:30.

pension and leaving them with lower state pensions as they lose out on

:39:31.:39:34.

earnings related element of the system. Let us recall as well that

:39:35.:39:40.

women born in 1950s didn't have the same breadth of employment as men

:39:41.:39:45.

and in the early years of employment it was still legal to ban women from

:39:46.:39:49.

joining private pension schemes if they married or worked part-time.

:39:50.:39:55.

Women were encouraged to pay the married women's stamp, which meant

:39:56.:39:59.

they accrued no state pension rights at all, and the state pension system

:40:00.:40:04.

did not credit them if they worked full time raising a family. In other

:40:05.:40:08.

words the pensions system was designed by men, for men. Thousands

:40:09.:40:16.

of women are now struggling to fill the gap before they have access to

:40:17.:40:21.

the state pension and I can find no adequate impact assessment has been

:40:22.:40:26.

undertaken by the government. They have simply left these women to get

:40:27.:40:30.

on with it. Some are planning to use up what savings they have and

:40:31.:40:34.

others, who may have very small private pension pots, are choosing

:40:35.:40:41.

to pull them all down to help fill a gap that is the creation of this

:40:42.:40:50.

government. The government must act. Thank you, Madam dubbed is bigger.

:40:51.:40:56.

And like the -- Madame Deputy Speaker. I'd like to pay tribute to

:40:57.:41:00.

the Waspi campaign group, who have raised man awareness of these issues

:41:01.:41:08.

and have had to resort to Freedom of Information requests to hold the

:41:09.:41:12.

government to account. The lack of communication associated with the

:41:13.:41:15.

1995 pension act. What they've done and what we've heard today and what

:41:16.:41:19.

we are hearing from constituents is how the combination of 1995 and 2011

:41:20.:41:25.

pension acts is affecting certain people's lives. This is women who

:41:26.:41:29.

have planned to retire at age 60, spent the whole lifetime in that way

:41:30.:41:33.

accordingly and now find they have to work an extra five or six years.

:41:34.:41:36.

Nobody here can imagine the impact this has on family life. Women who

:41:37.:41:42.

have already retired on the basis they have enough income to get by on

:41:43.:41:45.

until they reach the state pension age of 60, these are women who have

:41:46.:41:52.

been out of the workplace for up to five years and now find themselves

:41:53.:41:55.

in a position they have to try and find employment again, which is

:41:56.:41:58.

difficult enough having been out of the workplace but the austerity

:41:59.:42:05.

measures and the public sector is further attack -- affecting job

:42:06.:42:10.

chances. Some took early retirement and advisers did not tell them the

:42:11.:42:12.

impact of the 1995 act. How is she going to do at age 60

:42:13.:42:30.

bearing in mind only 34% of women in the 60-64 age range are active.

:42:31.:42:35.

Another constituent has been lucky enough to get back into work that

:42:36.:42:39.

she is coming back to pay national insured events which rubs salt into

:42:40.:42:45.

her wounds. Another constituent says she has been robbed of over ?30,000.

:42:46.:42:53.

Another aspect of the information gathered by the Waspy group is the

:42:54.:42:57.

submission and recommendations of how the government should have

:42:58.:42:59.

communicated with people and how they should in future, how to make

:43:00.:43:04.

financial clear and what the impacts are and I recommend the government

:43:05.:43:07.

take that on board. We have also heard that the previous pension

:43:08.:43:12.

Minister admits acceleration in 2011 was a mistake but has taken the easy

:43:13.:43:16.

option of blaming the civil service and the Tories which I don't think

:43:17.:43:22.

is acceptable. Two months ago the Chancellor 27p, -- 20 ?7 million.

:43:23.:43:31.

I would conclude by saying this government continues to gel as it

:43:32.:43:37.

takes pride in being able to take tough decisions, we are giving you

:43:38.:43:42.

an open goal and an easy decision. Change mind and help these people

:43:43.:43:45.

out whose lives have been potentially ruined. Thank you for

:43:46.:43:53.

giving me the opportunity to speak, I speak half of my own party to put

:43:54.:44:00.

forward a viewpoint expressing concern many have already said. A

:44:01.:44:10.

large group of women born in the mid-19 50s whose entitlement to a

:44:11.:44:14.

state pension was altered by the last government. Instead of 60 as

:44:15.:44:19.

they expected and planned they now don't qualify until the age of 66.

:44:20.:44:23.

Equalising the state pension is a good move for general equality in

:44:24.:44:28.

the long term but like any other members I have been inundated with

:44:29.:44:30.

constituents concerned that their whole life 's plans will be thrown

:44:31.:44:35.

up into the error by these unplanned and unexpected changes. The Office

:44:36.:44:38.

of National Statistics released research showing that women born in

:44:39.:44:43.

2064 can expect a liberal 100 years. By making that statement, not only

:44:44.:44:56.

will thousands of women across my constituency be affected by this but

:44:57.:44:59.

the publicising of this changes have not been adequate and thousands of

:45:00.:45:03.

women might not be aware of the changes and the potentially drastic

:45:04.:45:08.

impact it may have. I want to quote a constituent who wrote to me with a

:45:09.:45:17.

heartfelt plea, the stress I feel at times is awful. I got at this stage

:45:18.:45:21.

in my life I would have time for the mean things in my life. Women my age

:45:22.:45:27.

have worked hard. We are at this age the generation of looking after

:45:28.:45:30.

grandchildren and ageing parents. We were given little time to prepare

:45:31.:45:35.

for this extended retirement age and I feel the latest update is an fair

:45:36.:45:39.

as all the plans I had disappear. I was told several years ago the

:45:40.:45:45.

retirement age would be 62 so I set that as a target, then 18 months ago

:45:46.:45:50.

I am informed it is up to 66. How could our government treat us in

:45:51.:45:56.

this way and I ask the Minister that question. These women grow up and

:45:57.:46:02.

worked in a time and income inequality was rife. They had none

:46:03.:46:10.

of the advantages young women have today in more equal professions and

:46:11.:46:15.

our working environment. The DWP issued forecasts to working age

:46:16.:46:18.

people who had not received any kind of forecast in the preceding 12

:46:19.:46:24.

months. The letter made no reference whatsoever to changes. The

:46:25.:46:27.

opportunity to communicate the changes to affected women early and

:46:28.:46:31.

clearly has been missed but it's not too late, even today, for the

:46:32.:46:35.

Minister to reply and make a difference and make this process a

:46:36.:46:39.

lot easier for those affected. We need to have a coherent strategy

:46:40.:46:43.

from the government and Fred to be commented as soon as possible to

:46:44.:46:46.

assist the women affected by this change through no fault of their

:46:47.:46:54.

own. It was a privilege to hear the honourable member for Paisley and

:46:55.:46:58.

Renfrewshire South propose this motion just as it was an honour for

:46:59.:47:02.

me to join her in going to the backbench business committee to

:47:03.:47:05.

request this debate which has heard from powerful contributions from a

:47:06.:47:09.

number of members who have been campaigning in this Parliament and

:47:10.:47:12.

indeed the last parliament in relation to this very issue. Madam

:47:13.:47:17.

Deputy Speaker we have heard reference to the former minister

:47:18.:47:21.

Steve Webb and what he has now said. I believe the question arises, if

:47:22.:47:26.

the Minister himself was under some misunderstanding and

:47:27.:47:29.

misapprehension, was in some way being misled or misinformed was the

:47:30.:47:33.

house in 2011 in turn being misled and misinformed? Various statements

:47:34.:47:41.

were made in this chamber and that the committee stage. There is a

:47:42.:47:45.

question for Parliament and I often hear in this house the principle

:47:46.:47:49.

that one Parliament cannot wind its successor so it is an issue for this

:47:50.:47:54.

Parliament, a choice for this Parliament, those who weren't here

:47:55.:47:57.

then but are here now cannot wash their hands and say it's nothing to

:47:58.:48:01.

do with us, this is a choice for us because if the minister by the time

:48:02.:48:05.

the bill was going through was not fully aware, honourable members

:48:06.:48:08.

certainly were not and we know the people directly affected by these

:48:09.:48:13.

changes were not aware. We know they are so active and animated now three

:48:14.:48:18.

Waspy campaign that if they had been aware much earlier they would have

:48:19.:48:23.

been active much earlier. It's an insult for honourable members

:48:24.:48:26.

opposite to suggest maybe people were informed and just didn't know

:48:27.:48:29.

and if they didn't know they should have known. The fact is these women

:48:30.:48:32.

have demonstrated that had they known they would have been doing

:48:33.:48:36.

something about it for the terms of their own personal circumstances and

:48:37.:48:39.

in terms of the public policy challenges and issues they would be

:48:40.:48:43.

bringing forward. We also had the nonsense from across the benches

:48:44.:48:49.

that there was not an alternative, that we are looking for transitional

:48:50.:48:51.

arrangements but none have been proposed. We heard of arrangements

:48:52.:48:58.

being done in other countries in transition towards pension equality.

:48:59.:49:03.

There are examples and also when the bill was going through in 2011 as I

:49:04.:49:06.

said in an earlier intervention there were additional measures put

:49:07.:49:10.

forward but they were voted down by the government. Madam Deputy

:49:11.:49:16.

Speaker, in a debate in Westminster hall in May 2011I made the point

:49:17.:49:22.

then that if the Minister did not indicate that he was going to revise

:49:23.:49:26.

the proposals that were then in the bill because these women were and an

:49:27.:49:31.

intended anomaly, those women would have no choice but to conclude that

:49:32.:49:38.

they have been calculated as the victims of an intentional injustice

:49:39.:49:42.

with a drive-by hit on their pension rights and that is how things stand.

:49:43.:49:46.

The cause if we felt the pass this motion today we will be saying these

:49:47.:49:50.

people are unacceptable casualties on the way to equality and we cannot

:49:51.:50:00.

accept that. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, can I warmly thank and

:50:01.:50:05.

congratulate my honourable friend for Paisley and redfish size for

:50:06.:50:08.

securing this debate and making such a powerful speech on the issue of

:50:09.:50:13.

inequality many women face in the changes to the state pension to

:50:14.:50:18.

regime. I must say an opening it's an utter disgrace Madam Deputy

:50:19.:50:22.

Speaker that as we close this debate this afternoon, on an issue which is

:50:23.:50:26.

so important for millions of women in this country, at 2pm this

:50:27.:50:31.

afternoon there was the grandson of two Tory backbenchers in this

:50:32.:50:34.

chamber and as the debate clauses there are half a dozen Tory members,

:50:35.:50:39.

that is the contempt the government has for the women in this country

:50:40.:50:42.

that are suffering from these changes. It would have been easy to

:50:43.:50:51.

turn up just as my honourable friend says, where are the government and

:50:52.:50:54.

will they have the guts to stand up and vote this afternoon if we press

:50:55.:51:00.

this to a vote as I expect we will? Madam Deputy Speaker nothing more

:51:01.:51:03.

fundamental to all of us in making sure we can look forward to

:51:04.:51:07.

retirement and I indeed one which offers security and dignity. The

:51:08.:51:12.

reason we are here today is that women born in the 1950s believe they

:51:13.:51:16.

were short-changed by the government and our right to do so. Let's make

:51:17.:51:22.

it clear, as many of my honourable friends have done from the SNP and

:51:23.:51:27.

the Labour Party that we support the principle of equalisation. It's not

:51:28.:51:31.

equalisation which is the issue, it's the speed of the journey

:51:32.:51:36.

towards it which is both unjust and has led to significant and

:51:37.:51:39.

acceptable consequences for many women who have found that

:51:40.:51:43.

expectation of retirement deferred. The government will tell us as they

:51:44.:51:48.

often do that it's all about money. To us it is also about equity and

:51:49.:51:55.

fairness. It is doing, it is about doing the right thing. That's the

:51:56.:52:00.

problem with this government, it is wedded to austerity, it is wedded to

:52:01.:52:05.

the Jews in spending, and its obligation to society and

:52:06.:52:07.

specifically to this case that female pensioners a map it's one

:52:08.:52:12.

they're quite prepared to rip up and toss away. Let's get the deficit

:52:13.:52:17.

down and others will have to pay the price. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:52:18.:52:22.

austerity is not an economic necessity, it is a political choice.

:52:23.:52:27.

In making that choice 1950s women are paying the price. This, from a

:52:28.:52:33.

government that we know now is the price of everything and a value of

:52:34.:52:40.

nothing. Women's pension rights are expendable, crushing hopes of a

:52:41.:52:44.

decent retire for many, crushed on the desire to achieve a budget

:52:45.:52:47.

surplus. We should never cease to tell the house and the country that

:52:48.:52:52.

there is an alternative. What we have from this is abdication of

:52:53.:53:00.

responsibility, a poverty of hope and ambition. The Minister will no

:53:01.:53:03.

doubt shot out that the money could not be found to create a longer

:53:04.:53:08.

transitional period, it is all about priorities. When you can find 167

:53:09.:53:14.

billion to invest in the weapons of mass destruction, you can find the

:53:15.:53:17.

money to make sure our pensioners are protected. On this and on so

:53:18.:53:24.

many issues, this government has a faulty moral compass. When you enter

:53:25.:53:30.

into an arrangement with any pension provider you do that in effect

:53:31.:53:35.

assuming that the provider will exercise their contractual

:53:36.:53:39.

responsibilities. Whether you are talking about Private pensions are

:53:40.:53:43.

paying national insurance, you are in effect entering into a

:53:44.:53:46.

contractual arrangement within the case the state has since 1940 BNP in

:53:47.:53:51.

pensions to women who reach the age of 16. Women had an expectation that

:53:52.:53:58.

this is what was going to happen. The women behind the Waspy campaign

:53:59.:54:03.

are to be congratulated on how they have pursued this matter. Like the

:54:04.:54:07.

issues of tax credits for the government had to see sense, I

:54:08.:54:11.

expect to see a glowing clamour for the government to do the right

:54:12.:54:16.

thing. I am glad to see the press are taking an interest in this

:54:17.:54:20.

story, the Sunday Post in Scotland will be commended for putting this

:54:21.:54:25.

story on the front page last Sunday. From speaking with Westminster

:54:26.:54:28.

editor I understand they have had almost 400 e-mails this week and I

:54:29.:54:33.

have many them here. Let's look at the reality of what is happening, if

:54:34.:54:38.

we take the example of a woman or an across the early years of the 1950s

:54:39.:54:42.

and how their experiences are going to be sharply different. For

:54:43.:54:46.

arguments sake let's take somebody born in the 10th of February 1950

:54:47.:54:52.

onwards, somebody born on the 10th of February 1950 would have retired

:54:53.:54:56.

aged 60 in 2010. A woman born one year later would have to wait almost

:54:57.:55:00.

two years longer to retire on the 6th of January 20 12. A woman born

:55:01.:55:06.

on the 10th of February 1952 would have reached state pension age

:55:07.:55:12.

yesterday, aged 61 years, ten months and 27 days. Such a women has had to

:55:13.:55:17.

wait almost two additional years than a woman born in 1950. Madam

:55:18.:55:23.

Deputy Speaker, if this is not bad enough, the increase for women born

:55:24.:55:29.

in 1953 and 54 it's markedly worse. I women born in 1954 will not reach

:55:30.:55:37.

pensionable age until the 6th of July 2019. She will be aged 65

:55:38.:55:44.

years, four months and 26 days. A woman born in 1955 will not retire

:55:45.:55:51.

until the 10th of their degree 2021 aged 66. I say to this house, this

:55:52.:55:57.

cannot be right, it is far too steep and increase over a short period. I

:55:58.:56:01.

say to the few honourable members who are here opposite your

:56:02.:56:06.

conscience. You will have women from the Waspy campaign coming to see you

:56:07.:56:11.

at your surgeries. Someone born in 1955 that had expected to retire

:56:12.:56:15.

either now or at least not long into the future, the Conservative

:56:16.:56:19.

members, are they going to tell them it is right they have to wait an

:56:20.:56:24.

additional six years over and above someone born five years earlier

:56:25.:56:28.

without mitigation? Because that's the skill of the increase. It is,

:56:29.:56:33.

Madam Deputy Speaker, a breach of trust between the government and

:56:34.:56:37.

women who have earned the right to a pension. Let me, as a reasonable

:56:38.:56:44.

person, as indeed we are on these benches, help the government out. We

:56:45.:56:49.

should also heed the recognition of the last pension Minister Steve Webb

:56:50.:56:53.

who last month admitted the government made a bad decision on

:56:54.:56:57.

state pension age rises. We should recall the advice from the Turner

:56:58.:57:00.

report much quoted today that such measures should be brought in over a

:57:01.:57:04.

15 year period to mitigate the impact of any such changes. We have

:57:05.:57:09.

heard repeatedly about the failure of the communication which it can be

:57:10.:57:13.

argued means that the start of the 15 year process should be the

:57:14.:57:15.

beginning of the It would mean as we are having the

:57:16.:57:25.

age retirement age of 63 for women from this April, the government

:57:26.:57:29.

could look at smoothing the pension age for women aged 63- anti-sex --

:57:30.:57:39.

66 to 2025. My honourable friend for Paisley and Renfrewshire South

:57:40.:57:41.

mention that pensions are incredibly, located. My honourable

:57:42.:57:45.

friend is also right that we have built-in convexity and if I may say

:57:46.:57:50.

so and the number of inconsistencies which seem at odds with other

:57:51.:57:56.

aspects of pensions policy. When it comes to pensions policy at all to

:57:57.:57:59.

be about getting things right for the longer term. There are a number

:58:00.:58:04.

of positive developments that have been enacted such as auto enrolment

:58:05.:58:08.

but even here we need to talk about how we can enhance or toy ramrod

:58:09.:58:11.

twin deal with the issue of part-time workers, for example. --

:58:12.:58:16.

enhanced auto enrolment. There are rightful criticisms of how it has

:58:17.:58:22.

affected many women born in the early 1950s, but I would suggest the

:58:23.:58:26.

government had something I hope will have broad support is they establish

:58:27.:58:29.

an independent pension commission that can look at holistically all

:58:30.:58:35.

these issues that require oversight. If we accept as we do that there has

:58:36.:58:40.

to be equalisation of the state pension age, we also need to look at

:58:41.:58:43.

how this and the increase in state pension age is going to affect

:58:44.:58:48.

people throughout the UK. We need to look at vastly different mortality

:58:49.:58:51.

rates across the UK and question how this may influence the debate on

:58:52.:58:55.

state pension age. Just in conclusion, in Scotland are

:58:56.:59:01.

65-year-old man today can normally expect to live to age 82, and a

:59:02.:59:07.

woman, the 84. This is nearly two and a half years below life

:59:08.:59:11.

expectancy in England. There is therefore a considerable difference

:59:12.:59:13.

in the life experience of people with different parts of the UK and

:59:14.:59:18.

crucially much less time for someone in Scotland to enjoy a secure and

:59:19.:59:21.

comfortable retirement. We have a debate today that has shined light

:59:22.:59:26.

on pension inequalities and one that many women in the 1950s face. I hope

:59:27.:59:30.

the government are listening and are prepared to reflect on what can be

:59:31.:59:33.

done to mitigate against this unfairness. I would also hope that

:59:34.:59:38.

the take on board our suggestion of an independent pension commission.

:59:39.:59:47.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I begin by, lamenting the member for

:59:48.:59:51.

Paisley and Renfrewshire South on securing and opening this debate

:59:52.:59:56.

today Wash by, lamenting. It's an irony that as we discussed, she is

:59:57.:00:02.

further from retirement age than any other member of this House. I'd like

:00:03.:00:07.

to pay a warm tribute to the Women Against State Pension Inequality

:00:08.:00:10.

group and for the dignity with which they have conducted their campaign

:00:11.:00:15.

and I think it's a measure of their campaign success that every member

:00:16.:00:18.

of this House knows the meaning of the acronym Waspi. I'd also like to

:00:19.:00:23.

pay tribute to those other groups and individuals who have been

:00:24.:00:28.

advocating the cause of women born in 1950s. I think the level of

:00:29.:00:32.

interest in this debate is summed up by the fact that we have had 26

:00:33.:00:37.

backbench contributions from members from all parts of the United

:00:38.:00:42.

Kingdom. I'd like to pick out two of those contributions if I may. The

:00:43.:00:46.

first, from my honourable friend the member for Denton and Reddish and

:00:47.:00:52.

for all the work that he has done on this in recent years, and also my

:00:53.:00:56.

honourable friend the member for Worsley and Eccles South, whose deep

:00:57.:00:59.

commitment to this is known across the house. I'd also like to pay

:01:00.:01:05.

tribute if I may to Mike Labour colleagues who in 2011, when the

:01:06.:01:09.

pensions act was going through this house, pressed the issue of

:01:10.:01:12.

transitional provisions as hard as they could and I think it's a shame

:01:13.:01:15.

that the government did not listen to many of the proposals set out at

:01:16.:01:23.

the time. I will give way. As he said, at that time the Secretary of

:01:24.:01:27.

State in that debate said he would consider transitional protection. As

:01:28.:01:30.

my honourable friend seen any evidence of that consideration being

:01:31.:01:35.

given? You thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think that contribution

:01:36.:01:39.

really puts the finger on what has happened here, because in previous

:01:40.:01:45.

debates on this matter the minister the member for North West

:01:46.:01:48.

Cambridgeshire has talked about this issue of the cap on the increase

:01:49.:01:53.

being reduced from 24, took 18 months, but that was as far as it

:01:54.:01:57.

got, and to see the government here today with no positive proposals to

:01:58.:02:01.

put on the table, they keep asking the opposition about proposals, but

:02:02.:02:05.

it is the government that is -- that's mind has gone completely

:02:06.:02:09.

blank on this issue today. Let's not forget the fundamentals of this

:02:10.:02:14.

debate. The most women worn in a 1950s, some women born in 1950s,

:02:15.:02:18.

will have started their working lives without even the protection of

:02:19.:02:22.

the 1970 equal pay act. Many of those women will have carried out

:02:23.:02:26.

work at a lower rate than men for no other reason than that they were

:02:27.:02:31.

women. The gender pay gap is at its widest for many of the women who are

:02:32.:02:35.

under discussion today. Let's not forget either the time many of them

:02:36.:02:41.

have taken part time or to bring up children and not even had the chance

:02:42.:02:44.

to contribute to occupational pensions. The 1995 pensions act

:02:45.:02:52.

increased the state pension age from 60, the 65 for women between 2010

:02:53.:03:01.

and 2020 to bring in line with men. What the Coalition Government did

:03:02.:03:05.

was to move the goalposts. They decided to accelerate the rise in

:03:06.:03:09.

state pension age for women from April 2016 so it reached 65 by

:03:10.:03:13.

November 20 18. As my honourable friend the member for East Ham has

:03:14.:03:17.

pointed out, in the second reading debate before this house on the 20th

:03:18.:03:23.

of June 2011, the Secretary of State made clear they would consider

:03:24.:03:26.

transitional arrangements. The reduction in the cap, the much

:03:27.:03:29.

vaunted reduction previous debates the Minister has pointed out of

:03:30.:03:34.

capping the maximum increase to 18 months simply isn't enough, Madame

:03:35.:03:38.

Deputy Speaker. And does the government understand the anger the

:03:39.:03:43.

risk that more transitional provisions have not been considered?

:03:44.:03:47.

The over 100,000 signatures for a debate on this House, the online

:03:48.:03:52.

campaign that there has been in respect of this matter, and the

:03:53.:03:58.

great response in the media to this campaign, even recently the Sunday

:03:59.:04:01.

Post were telling me that a feature on this brings an unprecedented

:04:02.:04:04.

response from the hundreds of thousands of women who are affected.

:04:05.:04:09.

Let's ask ourselves what did the pensions minister in the Coalition

:04:10.:04:12.

Government at the time think? This is what he told the Institute for

:04:13.:04:16.

government. There was one very early decision that we took about state

:04:17.:04:20.

pension ages, which we would have done differently if we'd been

:04:21.:04:27.

properly briefed and we weren't. He added, we made a choice, and the

:04:28.:04:31.

obligations of what we were doing suddenly, about two Waspi three

:04:32.:04:34.

months later, it became clear they were very different from what they

:04:35.:04:39.

thought and added so basically we made a bad decision. We realised too

:04:40.:04:43.

late it had just gone too far by then. I'll give way. The only thing

:04:44.:04:50.

that my honourable friend has forgotten to mention is that the

:04:51.:04:57.

whole of this idea was masterminded and put forward at the box by that

:04:58.:05:03.

tinpot liberal who called himself Professor Steve Webb. Madame Deputy

:05:04.:05:10.

Speaker, I'm honoured to be put right by that intervention. Maybe

:05:11.:05:19.

Madame Deputy Speaker the Professor, as we shall rid forever referred to

:05:20.:05:22.

him, would have been better off listening to my colleagues on the

:05:23.:05:27.

Labour benches than civil servants. Wouldn't it be more interesting to

:05:28.:05:30.

ask ourselves what the current pensions minister thought of the

:05:31.:05:35.

2011 acts? I do thoroughly recommend to the House Roz Altmann .com,

:05:36.:05:41.

because there are a lot of wonderful critique of the pensions policy in

:05:42.:05:45.

there. She can't deny it, even her photograph is on every contribution.

:05:46.:05:50.

But what did she say about the 2011 acts? The government has decided to

:05:51.:05:56.

renege on its coalition agreement by increasing the state pension age

:05:57.:05:59.

from women from 2016 even though it sure these women it would not start

:06:00.:06:04.

writing the pension age are going before 2020. That is the current

:06:05.:06:08.

pensions minister. Even after the concession of the cap being reduced,

:06:09.:06:13.

this is what she said to the Yorkshire Post on the 6th of June 20

:06:14.:06:18.

13th and I quote, the coalition seems oblivious to the problems

:06:19.:06:23.

faced by those already in their late 50s, particularly women, who feel

:06:24.:06:27.

they simply do not matter to policymakers. What an appropriate

:06:28.:06:31.

critique that is. I think we should also look very carefully at the

:06:32.:06:34.

intervention made by my honourable friend the member for whole West and

:06:35.:06:38.

hassle when he talked about being lobbied by the pensions minister,

:06:39.:06:48.

about applying the pensions fund retrospectively -- Hull West and

:06:49.:06:51.

hassle. She was effective in lobbying, she told my friend the

:06:52.:06:56.

impossible was actually possible. Now she says what we are trying to

:06:57.:07:00.

do is impossible. I got an interesting history, I have been

:07:01.:07:06.

trying to think of an example all morning, but I can't think of

:07:07.:07:10.

another government minister who had more influence on policy when she

:07:11.:07:13.

was outside government than when she was in it.

:07:14.:07:19.

LAUGHTER And Madam Deputy Speaker we have

:07:20.:07:22.

heard so many times about the issue of notice and notice is absolutely

:07:23.:07:28.

key to this debate. Its key because the government has in its gift the

:07:29.:07:34.

pensions legal framework in this country and when it makes changes it

:07:35.:07:39.

has a duty to provide that notice. Now again, don't take my word for

:07:40.:07:43.

this. Let's take the word of the pensions minister. What did she say

:07:44.:07:48.

about women already in the late 1950s and the notice under the 2011

:07:49.:07:52.

acts? She said they are not being given enough notice of such a huge

:07:53.:07:58.

change. Why won't she listen to her own words now? And this debate as

:07:59.:08:07.

well takes place against the backdrop of a decision in the

:08:08.:08:11.

District Court in northern Netherlands, a decision that has

:08:12.:08:15.

already been brought out in the contributions that we have heard

:08:16.:08:19.

today. Which has found that a particular lady who suffered from a

:08:20.:08:24.

number of chronic diseases, progressive diseases, faced a

:08:25.:08:27.

disproportionate burden in bridging the gap to her extended retirement

:08:28.:08:31.

age. How awful it would be if this is a battle that ends up in the

:08:32.:08:38.

courts when the government has a chance to do something about it

:08:39.:08:42.

today. Now the government keeps saying they are not sure what to do.

:08:43.:08:46.

They think it's impossible to do something. They have no proposals to

:08:47.:08:49.

bring forward. And yet if we look at the passage of the 2011 pensions

:08:50.:08:55.

act, they had a number of options. One of them from the honourable

:08:56.:09:01.

member for foiling this debate. Another was put forward by one of my

:09:02.:09:05.

predecessors as shadow pensions minister at the time about

:09:06.:09:07.

maintaining the qualifying age for pension credit on the 1995

:09:08.:09:13.

timetable, rather than the 2011 one, to at least provide a buffer for

:09:14.:09:17.

those who are least able to cope financially with these changes. That

:09:18.:09:21.

was completely dismissed at the time. All I say to the minister

:09:22.:09:26.

today is the at least open his mind to having a discussion about what

:09:27.:09:33.

might be done, instead of consistently hiding behind the fact

:09:34.:09:35.

that he is going to do absolutely nothing. Now we have heard

:09:36.:09:45.

throughout this debate the passion there is about this issue. This is

:09:46.:09:49.

not an issue Madame Deputy Speaker that is going to go away. I urge the

:09:50.:09:54.

government to constructive. They can still do something to ease the

:09:55.:10:00.

transition is, whatever the minister does today do not slam the door in

:10:01.:10:10.

the face of the 1950s women. Thank you very much, matter and active

:10:11.:10:13.

speaker and may I start off by congratulating the honourable member

:10:14.:10:16.

for Paisley and Renfrewshire South on an itching to secure this debate,

:10:17.:10:20.

which has attracted so many members on both sides of the House and may I

:10:21.:10:24.

also commend all the colleagues who have taken the trouble to come and

:10:25.:10:29.

speak today. I will try to address as many of the points as I possibly

:10:30.:10:33.

can and in the limited time that I have available to me. May I begin by

:10:34.:10:40.

reminding the House about the rationale for reforming the

:10:41.:10:44.

timetable. Through our state pension system to function effectively it

:10:45.:10:47.

has to be fair, affordable and sustainable. The changes made to the

:10:48.:10:53.

state pension age under the pensions act of 2011 make an important

:10:54.:10:56.

contribution to achieving these aims. Gender equality is one of the

:10:57.:11:01.

main purposes of the changes to the state pension age. Under the

:11:02.:11:07.

previous system, women reaching state pension age in 2010 would

:11:08.:11:12.

spend on average 41% of their adult lives in receipt of state pension.

:11:13.:11:18.

While men would spend only 31%, due to longer life expectancy and

:11:19.:11:24.

earlier state pension age of women. It makes little sense for women to

:11:25.:11:29.

work to a pension age originally set in 1940, which does not reflect the

:11:30.:11:32.

employment opportunities open to them in a modern society. Changes

:11:33.:11:39.

were needed to take account of increased life expectancy and ensure

:11:40.:11:43.

fairness for working age people, who otherwise bear the cost of this

:11:44.:11:47.

longevity. The previous government acted following sharp rises in life

:11:48.:11:51.

expectancy to address this and brought forward the timetable for

:11:52.:11:56.

rises in state pension age. This was vital to continue to meet the UK's

:11:57.:12:01.

obligations under EU law to eliminate gender inequalities in

:12:02.:12:05.

Social Security provision. I will in a moment. To eliminate gender

:12:06.:12:08.

inequalities in Social Security provision and ensure the state

:12:09.:12:13.

pension remained affordable and sustainable. It was also important

:12:14.:12:16.

to look at the changes in the context of our wider pension reforms

:12:17.:12:20.

and what these mean for women. I will give way.

:12:21.:12:24.

I cannot believe he was listening, a substantial proportion of what I

:12:25.:12:30.

said showed that is not the case, what he and his colleagues are

:12:31.:12:32.

we were not required to do that, hiding behind is not the case,

:12:33.:12:37.

we were not required to do that, some countries are not equalising

:12:38.:12:41.

until 2040 or 2044 and some are maintaining a difference, can he

:12:42.:12:44.

please stop hiding behind something which is not true. The honourable

:12:45.:12:51.

lady should also respect to the views of other people and rather

:12:52.:12:55.

than just simply saying that what she is saying is right, we are

:12:56.:13:00.

bound, we are bound by EU law but also it is right and proper

:13:01.:13:04.

irrespective of EU law that we have gender equality. The introduction of

:13:05.:13:10.

the new state pension will benefit many women who would have lost out

:13:11.:13:14.

under the current two tier, I will not give way, I am mindful of the

:13:15.:13:19.

limited time I have and am keen to ensure the honourable lady who

:13:20.:13:22.

proposed this motion has an opportunity at the end to have the

:13:23.:13:26.

concluding comments. The introduction of the new state

:13:27.:13:29.

pension would benefit many women who would have lost out under the

:13:30.:13:33.

current two tier system largely as a result of a lower average earnings

:13:34.:13:38.

and part-time working. All those affected by the 2011 changes will

:13:39.:13:42.

reach pension age happily introduction of the new state

:13:43.:13:47.

pension. Allowed 650 cows and women reaching state pension age within

:13:48.:13:52.

the first ten years will receive an average of ?8 per week more under

:13:53.:13:55.

the new state pension that they would have done under the previous

:13:56.:13:59.

system. The majority of households reaching state pension age up to

:14:00.:14:04.

2030 will receive a higher total income over retirement under the new

:14:05.:14:13.

system. The solution to ensuring people have safety and later life is

:14:14.:14:17.

encouraging people to work longer. This benefit individuals through the

:14:18.:14:21.

social and financial rewards of an appointment. It benefits employers

:14:22.:14:24.

through the skills and experiences that older workers bring to the

:14:25.:14:30.

workplace. And it benefits the wider economy. Research by the National

:14:31.:14:34.

Institute of economic and social research has shown that adding just

:14:35.:14:39.

one year to be bulls working lives would add 1% to UK GDP per year. For

:14:40.:14:50.

those who cannot work due to caring responsibilities, ill health or

:14:51.:14:53.

disability, support is in place to provide extra help for these

:14:54.:14:57.

individuals. Women affected will be eligible for the same in work, out

:14:58.:15:02.

of work or disability benefits as men of their age. Carers allowance

:15:03.:15:07.

may be available for which national insurance credit are awarded

:15:08.:15:12.

automatically. In 2011 credits were introduced to help adult family

:15:13.:15:15.

members who were looking after a child under 12 to assist the parents

:15:16.:15:19.

who are working with these credits being able to count towards state

:15:20.:15:22.

pension entitlement. Madam Deputy Speaker much Chas been made of the

:15:23.:15:28.

comments made by the previous pension Minister Steve Webster and I

:15:29.:15:32.

think it has been important to recognise that even he was not

:15:33.:15:39.

seeking to have a resident reaction which would cost ?30 billion, he was

:15:40.:15:45.

only looking for a 10% claw-back. It's also worth remembering that he

:15:46.:15:50.

does recognise that the ?1.1 billion concession which was made was

:15:51.:15:55.

generous and his exact words are, and we got 1 billion back in the end

:15:56.:15:58.

and a billion quid is a serious amount of money. I will not give

:15:59.:16:08.

way. Madam Deputy Speaker. The government, I will give way... I am

:16:09.:16:12.

grateful for you being so generous, he courted that point about 1

:16:13.:16:15.

billion quid being a serious mode of money but he should have quoted the

:16:16.:16:19.

whole sentence because it starts by saying this was a measure to save

:16:20.:16:24.

?30 billion over how many years and we wanted 10% of it back to soft in

:16:25.:16:28.

the blow, he wanted 3 billion back but only got one! Actually whilst

:16:29.:16:34.

the honourable member was preparing his question if he had taken the

:16:35.:16:38.

trouble to listen that is what I said but in different words, he

:16:39.:16:42.

might want to check the record tomorrow morning on that. Always

:16:43.:16:48.

helps to listen before speaking in this place. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:16:49.:16:51.

the government listened to the concerns expressed at the time of

:16:52.:16:58.

the 2011 act and shortened the delay, that anyone would experience

:16:59.:17:04.

in claiming their pension. Relative to the 1995 timetable, to 18 months.

:17:05.:17:09.

This concession benefited almost a quarter of a million women. Who

:17:10.:17:13.

would otherwise have experienced delays of up to two years. A similar

:17:14.:17:18.

number of men also benefited from a reduced increase. This concession

:17:19.:17:22.

was worth 1.1 billion in total and as a result 81% of women affected

:17:23.:17:28.

will experience a delay of 12 months or less. I will give way. Thank you

:17:29.:17:35.

for giving way, on that point of the concessions being given, to me that

:17:36.:17:39.

indicates the government recognises the transition was not appropriate

:17:40.:17:43.

so on that point, giving the wording of this motion was very clear and

:17:44.:17:47.

asking the government to reassess in its look at the transitional

:17:48.:17:50.

arrangement, can the Minister confirmed he will do so if this

:17:51.:17:54.

passes whether it be unanimously or through a vote? Much has been made

:17:55.:18:02.

of what was so-called promised in the second reading. What I would say

:18:03.:18:07.

to the honourable lady and others is that this concession was made after

:18:08.:18:12.

it was said there would be consideration, this concession was

:18:13.:18:15.

made after they said they would consider it and that concession is

:18:16.:18:19.

worth six months and is worth one billion pounds. I only have a short

:18:20.:18:25.

an idle time and must press on. People being aware of the 1995

:18:26.:18:29.

changes, I should say that research carried out by it the Department for

:18:30.:18:35.

Work and Pensions in 2004 found that 73% of people aged 45-54 were aware

:18:36.:18:41.

of the changes. It is regrettable that people have sought to make this

:18:42.:18:45.

on a political basis and have completely forgotten that after 1995

:18:46.:18:55.

there were 13 years of Labour government and I have a list of some

:18:56.:19:01.

ten pensions minister is all during the Labour administration and they

:19:02.:19:05.

totally failed to do anything yet they conveniently work to put the

:19:06.:19:12.

blame post-2010 onwards and two of them, the Shadow Home Secretary

:19:13.:19:16.

commented earlier, he was a cabinet minister at the time and the former

:19:17.:19:20.

Home Secretary commented as well, he was former pensions Minister. I'm

:19:21.:19:29.

afraid I want, I have... I have... I have a few seconds but I will give

:19:30.:19:35.

way. Thank you, I was the Work and Pensions Secretary but we ends to

:19:36.:19:39.

Jews to measures which did not include this anomaly, this was

:19:40.:19:46.

introduced in 2011. The right honourable gentleman spoke of being

:19:47.:19:51.

lobbied but he took no action on it, there has been big issues, big

:19:52.:19:56.

issues as to whether notice was given to those, as to the changes in

:19:57.:20:03.

1995 and he when he was Work and Pensions Secretary did nothing to

:20:04.:20:06.

ensure those women were informed. Everything has been put at the

:20:07.:20:10.

blame... Madam Deputy Speaker I will wind up by saying that this matter

:20:11.:20:18.

was debated very thoroughly and very properly in 2011. Concession was

:20:19.:20:23.

made then, by way of time period and financially worth over ?1 billion.

:20:24.:20:27.

It was thoroughly debated in both Houses of Parliament and I very much

:20:28.:20:34.

hope that I have put on record the position of the government and I

:20:35.:20:37.

would simply say to people that they should learn to take the

:20:38.:20:40.

responsibility when they were in government for 13 years. I'm happy

:20:41.:20:43.

to the honourable lady speak now. First of all, I would like to

:20:44.:20:55.

congratulate the house on having such a good quality debate, I

:20:56.:21:03.

think... With a few exceptions! What has struck most is that this is an

:21:04.:21:11.

issue which clearly crosses party boundaries and different

:21:12.:21:15.

constituencies. All the evidence we have heard today shows that this has

:21:16.:21:19.

to be debated more, which it has been and shows that it was

:21:20.:21:24.

accommodated to in 2011 but it did not go far enough and it's still not

:21:25.:21:29.

good enough. Despite my intervention I am still no further former in

:21:30.:21:33.

understanding if the government will commit if this motion passes to look

:21:34.:21:37.

and reassess the transitional arrangements. The minister spoke at

:21:38.:21:42.

great length about equalisation, nobody here disagrees with that

:21:43.:21:46.

principle. What we are concerned with is the transition, that point

:21:47.:21:51.

has not been answered. My colleague, the honourable member brought Ross

:21:52.:21:54.

Skye and Lochaber pointed out that this is about priority. Everything

:21:55.:22:01.

government decides to do is about priority and I am no further clear

:22:02.:22:04.

as to what the priority of this government are so I would like to

:22:05.:22:11.

test this the house. Before I put the question may I remind the house

:22:12.:22:12.

that members who I will put that question as it is on

:22:13.:22:30.

the order paper of that opinion see aye. Aye. Of the country say no. No.

:22:31.:22:45.

I think the aye's have it. Division! Clear the lobby!

:22:46.:30:53.

Order! Order! The ayes to the right 158, the noes to the left zero. The

:30:54.:33:52.

ayes to the right 158, the noes to the left is zero. Unlock.

:33:53.:34:03.

We have just had a very convincing vote on a motion which is quite

:34:04.:34:09.

specific in calling for the Government to introduce trench is no

:34:10.:34:16.

arrangements. The debates are new phenomenon and what is new is the

:34:17.:34:20.

Government's tendency to ignore them. That is something for which we

:34:21.:34:25.

should not put up. Could you confirm their certain things we can do

:34:26.:34:31.

unambiguously as a house if the Government chooses to continue this

:34:32.:34:36.

bad practice? We could for example cut the salary of the pensions

:34:37.:34:41.

minister or his penchant for that matter. Alternatively, we could ask

:34:42.:34:50.

you to summon him on a weekly basis. Cute you confirm that is within the

:34:51.:34:54.

province of this house to ask you to summon him on a weekly basis until

:34:55.:34:59.

he bends to the will of the House? Can you confirm these are matters

:35:00.:35:03.

that are an ambiguous live within the performance of this house if the

:35:04.:35:10.

pensions minister continues to ignore a democratic vote. He was not

:35:11.:35:16.

in the last parliament so he is unaware that I cherish the back edge

:35:17.:35:20.

business committee for five years at which time we spent a lot of time

:35:21.:35:25.

grappling with these issues but most know that backbench motions are not

:35:26.:35:29.

binding on the Government. They're right situations in which they are

:35:30.:35:35.

binding on the House and I are happy to have a long conversation, not

:35:36.:35:39.

here, not now, about those but that is as far as it goes. These motions

:35:40.:35:47.

are not binding. This motion is not binding on the Government. This is

:35:48.:35:51.

an opportunity for the House to express its will. We have another

:35:52.:35:56.

debate coming up that is heavily subscribed and I really want to move

:35:57.:36:00.

on. I will let the honourable gentleman have a small word. I gave

:36:01.:36:04.

you two illustrations which the House has within its gift family

:36:05.:36:11.

action against a minister or instructing him to do something.

:36:12.:36:17.

That really is way outside the debate that is currently taking

:36:18.:36:23.

place. I wish to move on and we move now to the next motion on the order

:36:24.:36:32.

paper. Which is on children and care and I call Lucy Allen to move the

:36:33.:36:38.

motion. Thank you. I beg to move the motion that this house calls on

:36:39.:36:44.

government to take steps to help reduce the number of children

:36:45.:36:49.

entering care. By bringing forward measures to support more children to

:36:50.:36:53.

remain safely at home with family or extended family. I am most grateful

:36:54.:36:58.

to the backbench business committee for allowing this debate to be

:36:59.:37:02.

brought forward. The voices of children in care and their families

:37:03.:37:09.

are rarely heard, yet it is they who are among the most vulnerable in

:37:10.:37:13.

society and to have the greatest need of representation. Over recent

:37:14.:37:21.

years, we have seen steadily rising numbers of children being taken into

:37:22.:37:26.

care. There are now 70,000 looked after children in this country. The

:37:27.:37:32.

rise began in response to the very tragic case of baby Peter Connelly

:37:33.:37:37.

in 2008, but it has continued to increase. There are some who argue

:37:38.:37:43.

that an increase of children in care shows that local authority

:37:44.:37:47.

children's services are getting better at identifying children at

:37:48.:37:53.

risk of harm. Therefore, a rise in care, children in care must be a

:37:54.:38:00.

good thing. But you only have to look at the outcomes and life

:38:01.:38:04.

chances of care leavers to realise that a child in care provides its

:38:05.:38:11.

own risks. There are many deeply saddening statistics that I could

:38:12.:38:19.

cite, levels of poverty, addiction, suicide, poor educational

:38:20.:38:22.

attainment, overrepresentation in the prison population and high

:38:23.:38:26.

levels of mental health difficulties compared to the population as a

:38:27.:38:30.

whole. But perhaps the saddest statistic is the number of care

:38:31.:38:35.

leavers whose own children are then taken into care. A self-perpetuating

:38:36.:38:43.

cycle of loss, wounds that Neville Heal when the bond between parent

:38:44.:38:48.

and child is broken. Children in care will tell you of multiple

:38:49.:38:53.

fostering casement breakdowns, the sense of being unwanted, unloved,

:38:54.:38:58.

abandon, the loss of identity, of being split up from their siblings

:38:59.:39:02.

and grandparents and repeat changes of schools and loss of friendship

:39:03.:39:06.

circles and that feeling of never truly belonging. The tragic

:39:07.:39:14.

high-profile cases of child abuse and elect has (session is with an

:39:15.:39:20.

entrenched fear of getting it wrong. Understandably, they face

:39:21.:39:24.

significant pressure to take steps to secure the removal of children

:39:25.:39:28.

rather than find the optimal solution for every child. I say that

:39:29.:39:34.

if the state is going to intrude in the Private family life of an

:39:35.:39:39.

individual, it must guarantee better life chances for those children. Of

:39:40.:39:44.

course the welfare of a child must always come first, but in many

:39:45.:39:50.

cases, a child's welfare is best served by staying with their parent

:39:51.:39:55.

if that parent can be supported properly rather than just an

:39:56.:40:01.

uncertain future in care. Instead of support when experiencing family

:40:02.:40:04.

stress, the situation may be left until a crisis point is reached and

:40:05.:40:09.

then the family experiences possibly state intervention. Inevitably, this

:40:10.:40:16.

is a time of scarce resources for local authorities, but it is hard

:40:17.:40:21.

not to argue that prevention is better than a life in care. I shall

:40:22.:40:30.

be delighted to give way. Which she joined me and thinking and paying

:40:31.:40:34.

tribute to the many thousands of family members who stepped in and

:40:35.:40:39.

support children when their parental relationship has broken down, those

:40:40.:40:43.

kinship carers do a fantastic job and we would like to see more

:40:44.:40:48.

support for them perhaps on equal partnership of those who adopt. They

:40:49.:40:53.

stave the sate a lot of money. I thank the honourable lady for her

:40:54.:40:58.

intervention and I will come on to speak about the important role of

:40:59.:41:02.

kinship carers and the support that could be offered. Yesterday, and

:41:03.:41:10.

Longfield, the children's Commissioner, gave evidence to the

:41:11.:41:14.

education select committee on the point of early intervention and she

:41:15.:41:20.

spoke powerfully on the benefits. This is a vital stage in child

:41:21.:41:26.

protection. It can in these difficult Financial Times be in

:41:27.:41:31.

danger of being bypassed. I shall give way. I am a Welsh MP and in

:41:32.:41:40.

Wales we have something called flying start ended families who have

:41:41.:41:43.

difficulties in particular areas where poverty is high, the scheme

:41:44.:41:49.

starts literally at the point of pregnancy with regular engagement

:41:50.:41:52.

with the midwife once the child is born. There is support from

:41:53.:41:56.

dedicated nursing services that will talk about play, talking, food,

:41:57.:42:03.

setting boundaries as well as tackling drug and alcohol problems

:42:04.:42:09.

if they exist within the family. Is this the listed imprisonment not the

:42:10.:42:10.

way forward for many families? I thank her for her very helpful

:42:11.:42:20.

intervention and I hope the minister is listening to the points she

:42:21.:42:26.

makes. Instead of care proceedings being the option of last resort,

:42:27.:42:32.

which it is intended to be on the big legislation, many families find

:42:33.:42:36.

themselves on a track where too often there is only one outcome and

:42:37.:42:40.

it is a trend where media, family and campaigners have talked about

:42:41.:42:45.

for years. I believe the message is getting through. I should be

:42:46.:42:53.

delighted to give way. I can gradually to her on raising this

:42:54.:42:59.

subject. It is all too little we get to talk about children in care in

:43:00.:43:05.

this chamber. Can I mention, to concur, we have the largest number

:43:06.:43:09.

of children in care in England since 1985? On her early intervention,

:43:10.:43:15.

does she not agree and can she challenged the minister because I

:43:16.:43:19.

cannot be here at the end, what has happened to the early help

:43:20.:43:22.

recommendation which was in the review on child protection which I

:43:23.:43:27.

commissioned in 2010 and reported in 2011? It is exactly the intervention

:43:28.:43:32.

to keep families together when possible and seems to have gone off

:43:33.:43:36.

the radar. Does she agree that that needs to be very much back on the

:43:37.:43:42.

agenda? I thank him for his intervention. He was an excellent

:43:43.:43:45.

children's minister and I remember talking to you about some of these

:43:46.:43:51.

issues. I think that point is very well made. I am encouraged that

:43:52.:43:58.

there is more acceptance more can be done to top families stay together.

:43:59.:44:03.

And to stay together safely, it has to be better for society and

:44:04.:44:07.

financially, and most importantly, it is better for children. In

:44:08.:44:12.

Telford, my local council understands that. They focus on

:44:13.:44:17.

making sure children and families make sure they get the right help at

:44:18.:44:23.

the right time. They support families with the challenges, which

:44:24.:44:29.

makes sure more expensive and damaging interventions are not

:44:30.:44:33.

necessary. Essential to this successful scheme is implementing

:44:34.:44:39.

family can act, a single multi-agency front door for children

:44:40.:44:43.

and families. -- family connect. It is helping children on the fringes

:44:44.:44:50.

of care to stay out of the system. Many MPs will have had

:44:51.:44:53.

correspondence from constituents desperate to keep their children out

:44:54.:44:56.

of the care system and keep the family together. By the time

:44:57.:45:00.

families are in touch with their MP, proceedings are under way and there

:45:01.:45:05.

is nothing we can do. They are frightened, angry and overwhelmed at

:45:06.:45:09.

the monitoring and building of a case against them not intended to be

:45:10.:45:12.

supported or conducive to stronger families. There is an organisation

:45:13.:45:19.

called the family rights group, providing free specialist legal

:45:20.:45:22.

advice for families caught up in what can be a nightmare. It helps

:45:23.:45:27.

families navigate the complexity of local authority child protection

:45:28.:45:33.

investigations, enabling them to have a more constructive and

:45:34.:45:35.

informed relationship with social services. Demand for this

:45:36.:45:40.

organisation's services has doubled since 2010. Only 40% of callers can

:45:41.:45:47.

be answered. The education Department funding for this

:45:48.:45:51.

organisation is according to family rights groups ending in March and I

:45:52.:45:55.

urge the Minister to think about the benefit of this organisation and if

:45:56.:46:00.

that funding can be renewed. I do not accept that continued increase

:46:01.:46:05.

in a rise of children in care is inevitable. What society would it be

:46:06.:46:11.

if we assumed the state care would do better than parents? I believe,

:46:12.:46:16.

and it is based on working with families caught up in the child

:46:17.:46:21.

protection system, that most parents, however difficult the

:46:22.:46:24.

circumstances and background, most parents set out to do the best they

:46:25.:46:29.

can buy their children. The third step must be to help them achieve

:46:30.:46:37.

that. -- first step. It is not a mind set prevalent necessarily in

:46:38.:46:41.

child protection. In some cases it is the reverse. A professional, by

:46:42.:46:47.

which I mean a nurse, GP, Doctor, anybody interfacing with a child, is

:46:48.:46:53.

encouraged to think the unthinkable. What do I mean? Any parent, any

:46:54.:47:00.

parent, including any one of us might be capable of deliberately

:47:01.:47:05.

harming the child. The net in which families are caught is being cast

:47:06.:47:11.

wider and wider. Today, one out of 100 children in England are subject

:47:12.:47:16.

to child protection investigations. It is an increase of 79% in five

:47:17.:47:22.

years. As professional and Zeit is rising, support services dwindle. --

:47:23.:47:31.

professional and is IT is rising. -- professional worries are rising. You

:47:32.:47:37.

are seeking help for mental health problems and those that have had a

:47:38.:47:40.

child in care, they might all be considered a risk of future

:47:41.:47:46.

emotional harm to the child. I will give way to the honourable member. I

:47:47.:47:50.

am grateful to her for giving way and I agree with the points she is

:47:51.:47:55.

making. Does she also agree that it is a false economy if we cut back on

:47:56.:48:00.

preventative services, support services she refers to, we end up

:48:01.:48:05.

spending more in supporting those children in need and they end up

:48:06.:48:09.

reduced education outcomes and the other consequences of being in care?

:48:10.:48:15.

It is a worthwhile investment from everybody's point of view to stop it

:48:16.:48:20.

happening. I thank the honourable gentleman for his useful comment and

:48:21.:48:25.

I agree entirely. A risk of future emotional harm is assessed on a

:48:26.:48:28.

pattern of potential risk factors. Bad housing, single parents,

:48:29.:48:34.

poverty, abusive partners, combined to create a risk that a professional

:48:35.:48:39.

cannot take. All too often it is those most disadvantaged affected by

:48:40.:48:45.

this. I should be delighted to give way. Forgive me for saying, she is

:48:46.:48:51.

painting a rather maligned picture of the child protection system, like

:48:52.:48:54.

they are a bunch of child catches wandering around randomly looking

:48:55.:48:59.

for children to apprehend. Does she acknowledge that the majority of

:49:00.:49:03.

child protection cases, notwithstanding the old one which

:49:04.:49:06.

does not go the right way, but the majority come to the right decision?

:49:07.:49:14.

I thank him for his intervention. I will move on to that point with

:49:15.:49:19.

regard to the court system. We will always have children that are not

:49:20.:49:25.

able to stay safely at home. It is a difficult and challenging task to

:49:26.:49:30.

identify them correctly. We are told as they are decided by an

:49:31.:49:34.

independent court that we should be confident the right decision will

:49:35.:49:38.

always be made. Madam Deputy Speaker, I say that a court can only

:49:39.:49:42.

decide a case based on the evidence before it. Evidence put before the

:49:43.:49:48.

court by a child protection professional, that evidence is often

:49:49.:49:51.

dominated by opinion. The court does not have the discretion to disregard

:49:52.:49:56.

professional opinion in favour of a distraught parent desperately trying

:49:57.:50:00.

to navigate the complexity of the legal system, trying to prove they

:50:01.:50:04.

are innocent against the might of the state. The governed has been

:50:05.:50:10.

asked to support more children to remain safely at home. --

:50:11.:50:16.

Government. There are many good practices they are currently

:50:17.:50:19.

undertaking, like the trouble families initiative, children social

:50:20.:50:23.

care innovation and the project in Hackney. I would like to conclude by

:50:24.:50:28.

briefly asking the Minister to consider some other alternatives to

:50:29.:50:32.

helping children stay safely at home with their families. We know from

:50:33.:50:37.

recent research that when a mother has a charge removed, the trauma and

:50:38.:50:42.

loss often results in multiple repeat pregnancy. These children

:50:43.:50:48.

sadly are almost always immediately taken into care. I have sat on

:50:49.:50:54.

fostering panels a mother came back ten and nobody ever addressed the

:50:55.:51:00.

issues, and these ten children were taken into care, which comes to the

:51:01.:51:05.

point the gentleman opposite and the point about the cost effectiveness

:51:06.:51:11.

of dealing with the difficulty a mother in that situation would

:51:12.:51:15.

experience. I asked the Minister to consider therapeutic intervention

:51:16.:51:20.

for mothers at the earliest opportunity, as it is cost effective

:51:21.:51:24.

and care is not the answer that professionals would like it to be. I

:51:25.:51:28.

will give way to the honourable member. Before coming to the House I

:51:29.:51:34.

represented some of the parents whose children were taken into local

:51:35.:51:37.

authority care. One thing I noticed was when babies are up for adoption,

:51:38.:51:42.

there was almost an unseemly haste to put them out for adoption. And

:51:43.:51:49.

not really trying to work with the family, or the mother, to get the

:51:50.:51:54.

time back to the family. I thought that was very disturbing. I agree

:51:55.:52:00.

with the honourable lady. There is a requirement to facilitate

:52:01.:52:04.

reunification and rehabilitation. But I have also worked with these

:52:05.:52:09.

families and often I find it is not something that is engaged with by

:52:10.:52:15.

local authorities. In fact it was my next point. I can skip that bit.

:52:16.:52:20.

Local authorities are required to consider these points. The

:52:21.:52:25.

preliminary steps are difficult and potentially fraught with risk. That

:52:26.:52:28.

is why they are often skipped over and dismissed. The words often used

:52:29.:52:33.

are, it would be inconsistent with the timeline of the child. Not in

:52:34.:52:40.

the best interest of the child. It is unmerited optimism to assume

:52:41.:52:43.

rehabilitation and reunification is an option. I would like to move

:52:44.:52:49.

briefly onto the role of carers. I will give way to the honourable

:52:50.:52:55.

member. Would she acknowledge that in fact there are both types of home

:52:56.:53:03.

# homes being found to be guilty and once that should be found guilty

:53:04.:53:05.

that are not. -- home? He makes an important point.

:53:06.:53:16.

Certainly we have issues where families are under the radar and

:53:17.:53:20.

they do not approach professionals for help. And they are missed. We

:53:21.:53:26.

have to be very careful and that is why it is a difficult judgment to

:53:27.:53:35.

make. Moving on to carers, I believe they perform an invaluable role.

:53:36.:53:38.

Were a child is placed with a grandparent or member of extended

:53:39.:53:43.

family, again, in Mike 's parents, it is often overlooked as an option.

:53:44.:53:51.

-- my experience. There has been a strong focus on adoption. I urge the

:53:52.:53:55.

Minister to consider more support for carers and encourage local

:53:56.:54:00.

authorities to see this as often in the best interest of the child. It

:54:01.:54:04.

allows a chance to stay with siblings in a familiar context.

:54:05.:54:10.

Relatives are often dismissed as inappropriate because of connections

:54:11.:54:12.

with the natural parent, found wanting. I thank my honourable

:54:13.:54:20.

friend for giving way. Does she agree part of the problem is local

:54:21.:54:25.

authorities rushing towards adoption and that makes it more difficult for

:54:26.:54:30.

grandparents in particular to go through the process and

:54:31.:54:34.

demonstrating that they are equipped and suited to look after their

:54:35.:54:39.

grandchildren. I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:54:40.:54:43.

intervention. I am delighted he made that point. No family is perfect. It

:54:44.:54:47.

is about good enough parenting and the sense of belonging and identity

:54:48.:54:49.

which is irreplaceable for any child. I urge the Minister to

:54:50.:54:55.

support the family rights groups so parents have access to independent

:54:56.:54:59.

advice at an early stage in any investigation against them. It is

:55:00.:55:09.

sometimes the case, certainly when I have been involved in child

:55:10.:55:16.

protection work that the system is disregarded calls it puts a vital

:55:17.:55:23.

role in making sure all potential other sources of care are examined

:55:24.:55:28.

and explored before the case gets in front of a judge. I would like to

:55:29.:55:34.

see that examined and acknowledged. I thank the honourable lady for her

:55:35.:55:37.

intervention. It is an excellent point and well made. In conclusion,

:55:38.:55:43.

I am so encouraged by what I have heard from the Minister and the

:55:44.:55:49.

Prime Minister, because he has always been committed to

:55:50.:55:52.

strengthening families and seeing families as the bedrock of society.

:55:53.:55:57.

He recently spoke passionately and sincerely about his desire to see

:55:58.:56:02.

fewer children in care. He also said the way that care system and the

:56:03.:56:06.

plight of children in care shames our country. He has spoken of

:56:07.:56:12.

committing to the life chances of disadvantaged young people. It may

:56:13.:56:16.

be that with this emotion I and other members supporting it are

:56:17.:56:22.

pushing at an open door. I hope that is the case. So the sense of

:56:23.:56:27.

belonging and security is something which can be part of every child's

:56:28.:56:35.

life. Thank you. Alan Johnson. I am delighted to join the member for

:56:36.:56:41.

Telford in sponsoring this debate and declaring my interest as a

:56:42.:56:43.

patron of a family rights group, the charity working with parents in

:56:44.:56:47.

England and Wales whose children are in need, at risk, or in the care

:56:48.:56:50.

system. In this kind of preamble to my

:56:51.:57:05.

speech, that the family rights group provides the only free, open access,

:57:06.:57:11.

specialist legal advice for these families. Governments of all

:57:12.:57:16.

persuasions have recognised their importance. The simple fact is

:57:17.:57:19.

demand for their services has gone up and their funding has reduced.

:57:20.:57:24.

That is bad enough. If the Government does not get his finger

:57:25.:57:29.

out, the service will cease completely on March 31, just a few

:57:30.:57:34.

weeks from now. I hope the Minister can say something in his response,

:57:35.:57:40.

because the need for the work that the family rights group does and all

:57:41.:57:44.

the advice they give underpins all the various elements that we will

:57:45.:57:47.

hear in this debate on this huge subject today, and preserving them

:57:48.:57:53.

would be the first step to carrying out the terms of this motion. I

:57:54.:58:03.

wouldn't claim to change the world in my short period as education

:58:04.:58:08.

minister but now with my children's minister, we did try to improve the

:58:09.:58:12.

situation for children in care through demergers contained in the

:58:13.:58:18.

care matters White Paper. We work driven by a whole host of depressing

:58:19.:58:23.

statistics but the most scandalous of all was that children in care

:58:24.:58:28.

accounted for half a percent of the child population but as adults

:58:29.:58:35.

account for 27% of the prison population. We might as well as

:58:36.:58:40.

society just I wrote them straight to Wormwood Scrubs and the other

:58:41.:58:44.

institutions they will end up in. It is scandalous and we did much in

:58:45.:58:52.

government to address that problem, but the point I am making is after

:58:53.:59:00.

ten years in power when I became Education Secretary, despite an

:59:01.:59:03.

awful lot of concentration on what we used to call social exclusion,

:59:04.:59:10.

that statistic remained and my point is this is not a party political

:59:11.:59:16.

joust. This problem is so deeply embedded and so entrenched that

:59:17.:59:22.

Ashley the solutions to it needs to be worked together across this house

:59:23.:59:27.

and not in any kind of comforting way. Two combated. Just on that

:59:28.:59:37.

particular statistic which is of course appalling. I wonder if he

:59:38.:59:41.

accepts that it does not necessarily follow that it is the care system

:59:42.:59:45.

that meant that those individuals went to prison and if they stayed

:59:46.:59:49.

with their families they may have ended up in prison anyway? I do not

:59:50.:59:58.

concur with that at all. All these problems are profound,

:59:59.:00:00.

multidimensional, of course they are. I could sum it up in my time.

:00:01.:00:05.

Others may have summed it up in other ways but they are pushed into

:00:06.:00:11.

care too easily, they are moved around too much, and they are kicked

:00:12.:00:16.

out too soon. That is the issue we tried to face back in 2007. I want

:00:17.:00:24.

to focus on the first of these three, the fact they are pushed into

:00:25.:00:30.

care to easily and in particular on kinship care but in respect of the

:00:31.:00:35.

issue of removed from care too soon, can I congratulate the Government on

:00:36.:00:39.

the important steps they made in the children of families act in 2014

:00:40.:00:44.

when they insisted that young people in care who reached the age of 18

:00:45.:00:49.

could remain in care or stay put to use the terminology with Foster

:00:50.:00:57.

carers until the age of 21. In response to that intervention, we

:00:58.:01:01.

used to kick them out at 16. Nowadays, children are practically

:01:02.:01:05.

clinging on to the door mantle before you can get rid of them. The

:01:06.:01:12.

average age is 27 now and children leave home. Kids in care, the most

:01:13.:01:17.

abominable, were kicked out at 16. Of course that made contribution to

:01:18.:01:23.

this depression statistic of where they ended up. I am conscious of

:01:24.:01:29.

that. When I was a counsellor I established the first leaving care

:01:30.:01:35.

service at Westminster council. I recognise that issue. The point I

:01:36.:01:40.

was trying to make was that it does not necessarily follow that leaving

:01:41.:01:43.

those children and their families would have led to benign outcomes as

:01:44.:01:47.

opposed to the outcome is coming out of the care system. I am not sure

:01:48.:01:52.

the alternative would have more benign. I will come on the research

:01:53.:02:00.

because I believe that is indeed the case, not in every case but there is

:02:01.:02:05.

a higher proportion of children who left to be raised with families and

:02:06.:02:09.

friends incidentally will not end up in that situation. The Government

:02:10.:02:15.

introduced that very welcome change for children in foster care to be

:02:16.:02:18.

able to stay in foster care until they were aged 21. I wonder if the

:02:19.:02:25.

Minister could tell us if there were any plans to introduce an analogy is

:02:26.:02:30.

provision for children in residential care as recommended by

:02:31.:02:35.

the education select committee in 2014? It seems to be ridiculous that

:02:36.:02:40.

we agree that children can stay in care with foster parents at the age

:02:41.:02:46.

of 21 but kept kicked out at 18 when in residential care. The main issue

:02:47.:02:50.

I want to raise concerns can ship carers. They step into care for

:02:51.:02:59.

children. 95% of the children in kinship care are not looked after

:03:00.:03:08.

children by the local authority. Therefore, by keeping children out

:03:09.:03:12.

of the care system, these carers save the taxpayer billions of pounds

:03:13.:03:19.

each year in care costss alone. All the research evidence demonstrates

:03:20.:03:23.

that kinship care has real and substantial benefits for the child,

:03:24.:03:28.

they feel more secure, they have fewer emotional problems, they have

:03:29.:03:32.

fewer behavioural difficulties. On top of that comes the latest piece

:03:33.:03:37.

of research just in November of last year saying that they also do better

:03:38.:03:41.

in terms of educational attainment than those in residential care and

:03:42.:03:49.

there is another issue for the honourable member about the care

:03:50.:03:53.

system. The care system used to move kids around all the time, that was

:03:54.:03:58.

bad enough. When they arrived in a new location, they went to the worst

:03:59.:04:03.

schools, the schools that have the vacancies and generally they were

:04:04.:04:08.

the worst schools. We introduce the provision to say that schools must

:04:09.:04:12.

accept children in care as a priority in accordance with what

:04:13.:04:16.

those children and their carers wanted. There is another example of

:04:17.:04:22.

how we can change the care system for the better. Despite everything

:04:23.:04:31.

that has been done, the system neither encourages or supports the

:04:32.:04:34.

important alternative of kinship care. Yes there is guidance and that

:04:35.:04:40.

is helpful but there is no statutory duty that requires local authorities

:04:41.:04:44.

to explore the kinship care option or even to have the all-important

:04:45.:04:50.

family group conference, a crucial way of involving the wider family in

:04:51.:04:57.

the process, it does not even take place. Usually in the vast majority

:04:58.:05:03.

of cases until after the child goes into care. The family group

:05:04.:05:09.

conference has to be held before that decision is made and of course

:05:10.:05:13.

one of the important points about the family group conference is the

:05:14.:05:18.

voice of the young person, because their voice is crucial and vital to

:05:19.:05:24.

this process and central to the success of family group conferences,

:05:25.:05:27.

but not only are they look held almost always for a child after they

:05:28.:05:34.

have been designated looked after, the number of family group

:05:35.:05:39.

conferences is diminishing as budget cuts force local authorities to

:05:40.:05:45.

reach French. As a crucial step in realising this motion, the

:05:46.:05:50.

Government should place a new duty on local authorities that one they

:05:51.:05:53.

conclude HR needs to become looked after, they must firstly identify

:05:54.:06:01.

and consider the willingness and suitability of any relatives or

:06:02.:06:06.

other person connected to the child to care for them. Secondly, arrange

:06:07.:06:12.

a family group conference run by an accredited service to develop a plan

:06:13.:06:16.

to safeguard and promote a child's welfare. They should also ensure

:06:17.:06:22.

proper funding for free specialist independent legal advice as myself

:06:23.:06:27.

and the honourable member have mentioned through the family rights

:06:28.:06:32.

group. My final point concerns the need to recognise the problems that

:06:33.:06:37.

kinship carers face and the need for government to avoid adding to them

:06:38.:06:40.

through changes to the benefit system. The largest survey of

:06:41.:06:46.

kinship carers in the UK found that 49% of respondents had to give up

:06:47.:06:53.

work permanently. Often that is the requirement for actually taking the

:06:54.:06:56.

child into their care. The authorities insist that they give up

:06:57.:07:05.

work. 18% had to give up work temporarily, 23% had to reduced

:07:06.:07:10.

their hours, that creates a family income problem. The recent review of

:07:11.:07:18.

special guardianship provide a perfect opportunity to introduce a

:07:19.:07:21.

support framework for kinship care that includes a designated council

:07:22.:07:30.

official to contact when necessary. The Government should also consider

:07:31.:07:35.

extending the measures available to adopters of kinship carers such as

:07:36.:07:38.

paid leave and priority school admissions more urgently kinship

:07:39.:07:44.

carers should be exempted from the limiting of tax credit to two

:07:45.:07:49.

children, the benefit cap and the extension of work additionality

:07:50.:07:53.

rules to carers of children under five years of age. In respect of the

:07:54.:07:59.

benefit cap, many children arrive to live with kinship carers following a

:08:00.:08:04.

crisis and are deeply traumatised. Many have suffered prior abuse. As a

:08:05.:08:09.

result, the behavioural response hoped for by the DWP of staying in

:08:10.:08:14.

all returning to work is just not an option and the well of a drop in

:08:15.:08:19.

income caused by the lower benefit cap will force more kinship carers,

:08:20.:08:26.

who are saving the taxpayer a small fortune. Limiting child tax credit

:08:27.:08:32.

to two children will make it financially unviable for some

:08:33.:08:35.

relatives to take on a larger sibling group to keep the family

:08:36.:08:40.

together, a grandmother in my constituency, her daughter died, had

:08:41.:08:44.

three children, she takes the children in, she will be hit by the

:08:45.:08:50.

two child policy. That is no way to run a civilised social service and

:08:51.:08:56.

welfare state. The cost of this exemption would be around ?30

:08:57.:09:02.

million, it would only require 200 kinship carers to be financially

:09:03.:09:07.

prohibited from taking in a sibling group of three or more for care and

:09:08.:09:13.

court costs to outweigh this amount, so it is a saving the Government

:09:14.:09:17.

could actually been making. The new requirements that will be applied to

:09:18.:09:22.

carers of children under five will Place obvious and substantial

:09:23.:09:27.

burdens on kinship carers. There is an important precedent for these

:09:28.:09:32.

exemptions I say to the Treasury bench in that kinship carers have

:09:33.:09:36.

already been exempted from work conditionality requirements for a

:09:37.:09:41.

year after they take on the care of a child, so we're not talking about

:09:42.:09:45.

precedents here, we are about consistency. This is an important

:09:46.:09:51.

debate allowing honourable and right honourable members to raise issues

:09:52.:09:55.

which are aired all too infrequently. Despite the benefits,

:09:56.:10:01.

a kinship care is largely overlooked by the media, by governments of

:10:02.:10:06.

various persuasions and by the Prime Minister and his predecessor. Over

:10:07.:10:10.

the last two years, there has been much attention paid to adoption.

:10:11.:10:16.

Widely it has been the subject of prime ministerial speeches,

:10:17.:10:19.

government initiatives and newly announced funding streams. On

:10:20.:10:24.

kinship care there has been radio silence. It is time we gave kinship

:10:25.:10:29.

care the recognition and support that it deserves and that the

:10:30.:10:35.

children so badly need. There is considerable interest in this debate

:10:36.:10:39.

and I am afraid that has to be reflected if all colleagues could

:10:40.:10:48.

keep to a five-minute limit. A pleasure to participate in this

:10:49.:10:53.

debate and I congratulate my honourable friends because it is a

:10:54.:11:00.

very important subject and they have done extraordinarily well in getting

:11:01.:11:04.

it to the forefront of the chamber today. I agree with the honourable

:11:05.:11:09.

member in his emphasis on important of kinship care. I have encountered

:11:10.:11:15.

situations where solutions through kinship care would have been more

:11:16.:11:18.

appropriate than what had happened so I concur with what he has said

:11:19.:11:23.

and I would urge the Government to think have silly about ways in which

:11:24.:11:28.

it can encourage that forward. The chief inspector of schools

:11:29.:11:33.

frequently mention the importance of strong family life and I am pleased

:11:34.:11:39.

to note that the Government in the water and statement extended the

:11:40.:11:44.

troubled families programme which was started in 2013 and I think the

:11:45.:11:49.

troubled families programme is a really important step because it

:11:50.:11:52.

does signal what everybody really knows that good families are better

:11:53.:11:57.

and so we must make sure that those families who do go through appalling

:11:58.:12:04.

experiences are heading towards crises are given the appropriate

:12:05.:12:07.

help and I think the Government is right to make it more easy for

:12:08.:12:12.

separating parents to go through mediation rather than a full-scale

:12:13.:12:16.

battle and I think that is another step in the right direction in terms

:12:17.:12:18.

of family life. I would like to talk about several

:12:19.:12:30.

things. The first is the role of social workers in these matters and

:12:31.:12:33.

the importance of high standards of social work. To avoid the pitfalls

:12:34.:12:41.

we encounter and have done in recent years. The two elements, and one

:12:42.:12:45.

cropped up when we visited the Department of education has a select

:12:46.:12:50.

committee. It is a question of leadership of social workers. Not

:12:51.:12:54.

necessarily at director level but assistant director, to have the

:12:55.:12:59.

right quality of decisions made in the right time. I would suggest that

:13:00.:13:05.

what the Government should think about is the quality nature and

:13:06.:13:12.

forward planning of social work in the local authority areas. That

:13:13.:13:17.

brings me onto the next big point, agency cooperation. What I would

:13:18.:13:21.

like to hear from the Minister is some comment on how the ministerial

:13:22.:13:25.

task force on child protection is getting on. I would have thought one

:13:26.:13:32.

key priority of that task force should in fact be to encourage

:13:33.:13:36.

better agency cooperation and make it easier for agencies to work

:13:37.:13:41.

together. I think that is an important direction of travel. It is

:13:42.:13:46.

one I hope the education select committee will push forward itself.

:13:47.:13:54.

I want to talk a little bit about pupil premium and children Centres.

:13:55.:13:57.

I think these are linked and very important aspects of what we want to

:13:58.:14:05.

talk about today. It is of course driven by children in poverty, but

:14:06.:14:10.

of course there are links between those children and children who are

:14:11.:14:18.

in trouble families. One instrument we should use is pupil premium to

:14:19.:14:21.

identify and try and help children that are in jeopardy. The same logic

:14:22.:14:28.

applies to the way in which we think our children Centres. Because they

:14:29.:14:33.

are really useful places. In my constituency I see just how

:14:34.:14:38.

important they are. We are looking at thousands of children in my

:14:39.:14:41.

constituency going to well run children Centres and they benefit

:14:42.:14:45.

from extraordinarily good services. I would say that we need to put the

:14:46.:14:53.

spotlight on the value of children Centres, which are well run and

:14:54.:14:56.

organised, certainly in my constituency. Two final points, we

:14:57.:15:04.

need to talk about pH SC. That is something we have to talk about in

:15:05.:15:10.

terms of statutory requirements and I have written to the Secretary of

:15:11.:15:13.

State to urge her to very carefully think about that and I know we

:15:14.:15:17.

continue to pressure rise that particular front. -- pressure. I had

:15:18.:15:24.

a recent meeting with a youth Justice board. We heard earlier a

:15:25.:15:30.

bit about children getting into difficulty with prison, with

:15:31.:15:36.

criminal activity and so on. One key point made then and I repeat it now

:15:37.:15:42.

is we need stronger, better and more transparent agency work and agency

:15:43.:15:51.

cooperation. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The member for Telford

:15:52.:15:54.

is right to express concern at the rising numbers of children in care

:15:55.:15:58.

and if more can be done to keep families together. Maybe

:15:59.:16:02.

consideration should be given particularly for older children in

:16:03.:16:05.

care homes whether the care system could be more flexible supporting

:16:06.:16:08.

relationships with families if that is what the child wanted. In Denmark

:16:09.:16:14.

there tends to be a stronger focus on prevention and family support.

:16:15.:16:18.

That is characterised by the care system operating more flexibly

:16:19.:16:21.

around the family. Residential care is likely to be more local and allow

:16:22.:16:28.

work with the family. In 2015 there were six and 75,000 jobs and placed

:16:29.:16:31.

in care in England. Children in homes are likely to have more

:16:32.:16:34.

placements than children in foster care and significant social

:16:35.:16:41.

difficulties... I am grateful to her for giving way. I am very aware that

:16:42.:16:48.

care homes are not the best environment for bundle young people

:16:49.:16:51.

with mental health issues to grow up in. -- vulnerable. The best

:16:52.:16:55.

approaches to intervene before family crisis. Would she agree that

:16:56.:17:01.

the cuts to local authorities like Manchester make it harder for those

:17:02.:17:04.

authorities with the greatest need to provide services like sure start

:17:05.:17:09.

to the families of the most abundant but children. -- most vulnerable

:17:10.:17:15.

children. The point he makes is absolutely right. You need funding

:17:16.:17:23.

for prevention. Children in homes are likely to have more significant

:17:24.:17:28.

problems. In October 2015 the Government announced an independent

:17:29.:17:35.

investigation into children in residential care. The aim of the

:17:36.:17:39.

review which I welcomed was to try and end the disadvantage of

:17:40.:17:42.

vulnerable children in care. The Minister knows there was a joint

:17:43.:17:46.

enquiry into children missing from care conducted into an organisation

:17:47.:17:54.

which I chair, looking at incidence of children missing from care homes

:17:55.:17:57.

and concluding that one of the biggest problems was unequal

:17:58.:18:02.

distribution and as a result large number is children were placed at a

:18:03.:18:06.

distance from their home area. Many decisions were last-minute and

:18:07.:18:09.

driven by what was available at the time and not the need of the child

:18:10.:18:13.

and the child was often not involved in planning. The enquiry was told

:18:14.:18:18.

that they felt dumped in homes many miles away from home. It increased

:18:19.:18:22.

propensity to go missing and come to harm, for example, from sexual

:18:23.:18:28.

exploitation. An expert group on the quality of children homes were set

:18:29.:18:31.

up and reported to the Department for education in 2012. The

:18:32.:18:36.

Government published a children home base package the same year. One key

:18:37.:18:41.

finding of the expert group support was the pattern of supply of

:18:42.:18:44.

children's homes was uneven across England. One reason may be property

:18:45.:18:49.

prices being so much lower in some areas than others. It leads

:18:50.:18:54.

companies to set up low-cost areas to suit businesses rather than what

:18:55.:18:59.

is best for children. Figures show 79% of homes are in the private and

:19:00.:19:04.

voluntary sector. In 2012 a charge up to ?5,000 per week for children

:19:05.:19:09.

with difficult needs. ?1 billion per year is spent on local authorities

:19:10.:19:13.

on children home bases. We have had concerns about the large number of

:19:14.:19:17.

private equity firms involved. The report from the expert group in 2012

:19:18.:19:21.

made a number of recommendations to help remedy unequal distribution and

:19:22.:19:26.

mitigate the impact of children placed at a distance. What has

:19:27.:19:32.

changed since 2012? Children's homes were concentrated in the north-west,

:19:33.:19:37.

West Midlands and south-east. The north-west is 15% of the children's

:19:38.:19:41.

homes population but 25% of the children's homes. The 2014 data

:19:42.:19:48.

shows the picture has not changed regarding location and numbers of

:19:49.:19:52.

children placed at a distance. In 2014 and one third of children were

:19:53.:19:55.

still 20 miles or further from the home area. It is difficult in think

:19:56.:20:01.

progress was slow and we have the problem of -- disappointing that

:20:02.:20:06.

progress is slow. This evidence is painting a picture of a market in

:20:07.:20:11.

the interest of providers and not in the interest of children and young

:20:12.:20:15.

people. I will come introducing new regulations recommended by the

:20:16.:20:19.

expert group, particularly the need for a director of children's

:20:20.:20:23.

services to approve a decision to place a child at a distant

:20:24.:20:27.

placement. But I am not clear about how the effect of these regulations

:20:28.:20:33.

will be monitored in assessment of better outcomes for children and

:20:34.:20:37.

safeguarding children, particularly interested placements and I would be

:20:38.:20:40.

grateful for more information from the Minister. The pack makes clear

:20:41.:20:45.

local authorities are placing children far from home and they are

:20:46.:20:48.

not putting them in poor quality provision but the main problem is

:20:49.:20:53.

distance. It means the authority cannot rely on local knowledge and

:20:54.:20:57.

intelligence about the quality of homes and suitability of locations.

:20:58.:21:03.

It gives rise to significant travel times, limiting social work

:21:04.:21:06.

oversight and the distance between the child and the family limiting

:21:07.:21:10.

relationships and undermining the scope of work for the family. There

:21:11.:21:15.

are other issues like quality of starving but it is the geographical

:21:16.:21:18.

location of children's homes limiting choice for social workers

:21:19.:21:22.

and the point of placement and an unsatisfactory placement for a child

:21:23.:21:26.

will only compound the difficulty they might already have and add to

:21:27.:21:31.

this trusting the system and increased incidence of going missing

:21:32.:21:40.

and a risk of harm. Evidence continues to show a continuous

:21:41.:21:43.

failure of unequal disabuse you of homes. Local authorities are the

:21:44.:21:48.

only buyers of these places and commissioning cannot be the total of

:21:49.:21:51.

decisions made according to availability and capacity. It must

:21:52.:21:55.

proactively look into long-term needs of the children and local

:21:56.:21:59.

authorities should look after that now and in future. As I mentioned,

:22:00.:22:04.

the European model in which residential care is likely to be

:22:05.:22:09.

local allows the family to visit and provides opportunities for

:22:10.:22:12.

constructive work with parents. This approach aims to support the

:22:13.:22:15.

resources of the family and instead what often happens, families feel

:22:16.:22:20.

they have been identified as bailing and decisions are taken from them.

:22:21.:22:28.

The key to this is local provision. Thank you. Can I start by commending

:22:29.:22:32.

the honourable members that proposed this emotion? They did so for

:22:33.:22:37.

laudable reasons. They can see the value of strong family and the role

:22:38.:22:43.

they have in raising children. They are the granite on which society is

:22:44.:22:48.

founded. The desire to work and help children to stay with them is to be

:22:49.:22:51.

praised. They reckon I the limitation of the child protection

:22:52.:22:54.

system and they seek to keep children out of it. Early

:22:55.:22:58.

intervention, Roberta Vinci in and supporting kinship care and -- early

:22:59.:23:03.

intervention is of course part of a coherent strategy. It should be

:23:04.:23:09.

noted the subject of this debate is not strong families and optional

:23:10.:23:12.

families and even the care system. The subject is about families and

:23:13.:23:17.

households which often put the lives and well-being of children in

:23:18.:23:23.

serious danger. Children in care removed from those families because

:23:24.:23:26.

they are not save and because those families will not help them grow to

:23:27.:23:32.

be healthy and independent adults, for them, stable families are

:23:33.:23:36.

already out of reach. When this happens, the solution is not to

:23:37.:23:40.

dither and apply half measures and wait and see. It falls to the state

:23:41.:23:45.

to step in and protect children and if necessary remove them from

:23:46.:23:50.

danger. It is not something which should be done lightly. It is far

:23:51.:23:55.

from ideal. But it is done because we recognise waiting to see if

:23:56.:23:59.

parents can improve and try to improve the home is too often a very

:24:00.:24:05.

risky path to take. We have seen again and again in recent years the

:24:06.:24:09.

wait and see approach and failure to act to quickly has resulted in

:24:10.:24:17.

horrendous consequences. This cost of repeatedly failing to act is

:24:18.:24:19.

often greater than the potential upside of trying to help children to

:24:20.:24:26.

stay with their families. According to the NSPCC, most children in care

:24:27.:24:29.

recognised eventually it was the right path for them. They recognise

:24:30.:24:33.

the issues leading to them being in care in the first place. These were

:24:34.:24:36.

dreadful situations demanding action. Once it is properly

:24:37.:24:43.

established a child is in danger, and there are no safe kinship

:24:44.:24:48.

alternatives, we have no choice but to take action. This applies in

:24:49.:24:53.

cases of neglect and especially in cases of child cruelty. In matters

:24:54.:24:59.

cruelty there are no second chances. There are not any for the child, or

:25:00.:25:03.

baby, at risk of permanent harm and even death, there are not any... I

:25:04.:25:07.

will give way to the honourable member. I thank him for giving way.

:25:08.:25:14.

Does he agree that there are children taken into the care system

:25:15.:25:18.

that are not harmed nor neglected and ripped reference to the point

:25:19.:25:21.

about emotional abuse and potential emotional abuse and these are

:25:22.:25:26.

subjective judgments which can be made? I do recognise that. But as I

:25:27.:25:32.

said earlier, my general sense, having worked with the care system

:25:33.:25:37.

in Council and subsequently is that in the majority of cases, bit is the

:25:38.:25:41.

right decision for the child concerned. -- it is the right

:25:42.:25:45.

decision. Most children are in some kind of danger, whether it is

:25:46.:25:50.

emotional, or physical, causing the removal. As I said, they should not

:25:51.:25:57.

be any second chances for parents either that put the children at

:25:58.:26:02.

risk, or deliberately harmed them. I remind the House that to make this

:26:03.:26:06.

case is not to argue that the state is better placed to look after

:26:07.:26:11.

children and families. Nothing is. It is not right that children in

:26:12.:26:15.

care are still so vulnerable and they have been destined for a

:26:16.:26:18.

miserable life after they leave, but the fact we fail to many children in

:26:19.:26:24.

care does not mean we have too many in care. Or that it is the wrong

:26:25.:26:28.

thing to remove them from the families which were endangering

:26:29.:26:34.

them. It does not follow. What follows is we should do more for

:26:35.:26:37.

these children in care and continue with intervention quickly when the

:26:38.:26:46.

need arises. My rejection of this motion is in two paths. The first as

:26:47.:26:50.

I have said is given the danger of failing to intervene is so strong, I

:26:51.:26:53.

think we should be intervening more. The Government has indicated it is

:26:54.:27:07.

determined to make. The care system exist to keep children safe whether

:27:08.:27:12.

families have failed them. The burden of looking after these

:27:13.:27:20.

children falls on everyone. Proponents of the motion acknowledge

:27:21.:27:23.

they are not safe with their family in the first place. Considering the

:27:24.:27:28.

degree of damage that abuse and neglect can inflict in a short space

:27:29.:27:32.

of time, we cannot take risks or gamble with their lives. In many

:27:33.:27:37.

cases, children should be taken into care sooner. I am puzzled by his

:27:38.:27:44.

contribution. There is no good the supporting this motion or sponsoring

:27:45.:27:48.

this motion who does not believe that children who are in danger

:27:49.:27:52.

should be removed from that danger quickly. His intention to vote

:27:53.:28:02.

against this motion is on a total misconception. What we are trying to

:28:03.:28:06.

say is that there are many children who go into care and their voice is

:28:07.:28:11.

important, who actually would be better placed with family members

:28:12.:28:15.

and would be happier with family members. I would suggest that is a

:28:16.:28:20.

proposition that should unite the House not be defeated by some kind

:28:21.:28:27.

of suggestion that people disagree that children should be removed from

:28:28.:28:31.

the danger quickly. I agree that if they safe alternative can be found

:28:32.:28:38.

with family, that should be encouraged. I do think the

:28:39.:28:42.

Government could do more to support that is not the point of the motion,

:28:43.:28:47.

the motion does not mention kinship care and the motion laments the rise

:28:48.:28:53.

of the number of children in the care system and the point I am

:28:54.:28:58.

trying to make is that while we as a social care system seek to intervene

:28:59.:29:03.

with a family and tried to make the family home so far, there is still a

:29:04.:29:07.

child who is remaining in the home who may still be damaged and we have

:29:08.:29:12.

seen some horrendous situations where the social care system failed

:29:13.:29:16.

to act quickly and my view is if we hide from this problem, hide behind

:29:17.:29:21.

the idea that we may be able to make some progress with the family, we

:29:22.:29:25.

are fundamentally gambling with the lives of those young people. In my

:29:26.:29:34.

opening remarks I made reference to the fact that one in 100 children

:29:35.:29:39.

are subject to child protection investigations and it is no secret

:29:40.:29:44.

that my own son was subject to a child protection investigation and

:29:45.:29:48.

so often families who are not what place to protect themselves from

:29:49.:29:52.

that type of forcible state intervention and up in care when

:29:53.:29:59.

they do not need to be there. As I said in my intervention, my

:30:00.:30:03.

experience of the care system is not that the country is teaming with

:30:04.:30:08.

malign care workers looking for children to purloined from their

:30:09.:30:12.

parents and shove into the care system. These are professional

:30:13.:30:16.

people who investigate largely professionally. Their motives are

:30:17.:30:23.

good and right and more often than not they see cause for alarm that

:30:24.:30:29.

requires action. My concern I guess about this motion is that after the

:30:30.:30:36.

tragic case of baby Peter which has seen a rise in the number of

:30:37.:30:41.

children in care, it was generally accepted that before that case, the

:30:42.:30:45.

child protection system was not functioning correctly. I myself was

:30:46.:30:53.

involved in the Victoria Quimby affair. There is another case where

:30:54.:31:01.

the care system failed. It is not necessary that the system is

:31:02.:31:07.

operated incorrectly but it may be operating correctly and my concern

:31:08.:31:11.

about the motion today is about the signal it sends to social workers

:31:12.:31:15.

about the desire of this house that they should attempt to leave

:31:16.:31:20.

children in possibly damaging situations for longer while they

:31:21.:31:23.

attempt the harder task of trying to turn the home around. I support the

:31:24.:31:33.

motion wholeheartedly because one of the best things we can do is to

:31:34.:31:40.

improve the prospects for children to be able to stay at home

:31:41.:31:44.

successfully with their birth parents. However, there are many

:31:45.:31:48.

things that need to be done in order to hop achieve that, not least the

:31:49.:31:54.

availability of support for parents who otherwise would be in a

:31:55.:31:57.

situation where children might be at risk and I think those members have

:31:58.:32:02.

already commented on cuts to public services and the contribution those

:32:03.:32:12.

have made in undermine Dean the -- undermining parents. The Government

:32:13.:32:17.

needs to take a long look at the support and resources available not

:32:18.:32:21.

least in local government then in the NHS. But equally as my

:32:22.:32:29.

honourable friend sad, the Government needs to take a wider

:32:30.:32:32.

look at all of the options available and while for many children the

:32:33.:32:38.

option is the right option, it is about the right option always for

:32:39.:32:42.

children and it is about always putting the child at the centre of

:32:43.:32:47.

decisions that are taken and he is right when he says kinship care is

:32:48.:32:51.

not something that has been considered. It should always be an

:32:52.:32:56.

option considered if there are members of extended family available

:32:57.:32:59.

and this is very clearly what we are trying to discuss today. We should

:33:00.:33:07.

be doing all we can to avoid a situation where we have this very

:33:08.:33:13.

high number, 86,000 children in care last year, and trying to reduce it

:33:14.:33:20.

at all costs but it does involve significant intervention, early

:33:21.:33:22.

intervention and prevention work, working with families where children

:33:23.:33:28.

might be at risk, preventing the kind of neglect and abuse that leads

:33:29.:33:32.

to children being taken into care in the first place. I should have

:33:33.:33:40.

mentioned at the outset my reference in the member's interest as a

:33:41.:33:49.

recently no longer a foster carer but I was briefly. I think one of

:33:50.:33:58.

the challenges for this area is making sure we have the workforce to

:33:59.:34:03.

deliver and it is making sure that we support, encourage and celebrate

:34:04.:34:09.

the work of social workers and all who work with children, all who work

:34:10.:34:13.

with families in trying to support and prevent the kind of breakdown

:34:14.:34:18.

that leads to children going into care. But also supporting,

:34:19.:34:23.

encouraging, recruiting the very best people to become foster carers

:34:24.:34:27.

to work in residential children's care and to support those kinship

:34:28.:34:32.

carers and parents so they are able to provide the best quality of care

:34:33.:34:38.

in the source of situations that we are talking about. As has been said,

:34:39.:34:44.

we should be looking at children in care as we do our own. The concept

:34:45.:34:50.

of corporate parenting is another fine example of what the last

:34:51.:34:55.

government introduced but I don't believe it is practised to the

:34:56.:34:59.

extent it should be. We should ensure every child in the public

:35:00.:35:04.

care system gets the support, encouragement and opportunity they

:35:05.:35:08.

would do if they were our own children and that includes the

:35:09.:35:12.

extension of staying put until 21 and beyond, not just in foster care

:35:13.:35:19.

but is -- in residential care but we also need to learn from other

:35:20.:35:23.

countries. In Denmark they have a very much long-term commitment to

:35:24.:35:30.

support children in the use of social pedagogy and the development

:35:31.:35:38.

and training of very experienced residential workers who live with

:35:39.:35:43.

children over long periods of time to create family units. It's a very

:35:44.:35:47.

successful model and there are examples of it in this country and

:35:48.:35:51.

the Government should perhaps look at that example also, because

:35:52.:35:55.

permanence for children is incredibly important and whether

:35:56.:36:01.

that is with their birth family, kinship carers, foster care or

:36:02.:36:05.

residential care, it is having that right option for each individual

:36:06.:36:10.

child that really matters and is the most important. We should learn from

:36:11.:36:14.

the best practice in this country and around the world as well. One

:36:15.:36:20.

final comment, speed is incredibly important in these decisions and is

:36:21.:36:24.

a decision is being taken, it should be very quickly whether a child

:36:25.:36:29.

should remain with a birth family or not and it should always be what is

:36:30.:36:41.

right for the individual child. My honourable friend speaks from a

:36:42.:36:47.

rather more direct and personal experience than any of us would

:36:48.:36:53.

like. Nobody could have higher opinion, greater respect for social

:36:54.:36:56.

workers and child protection officers than I do. At the time I

:36:57.:37:03.

was born, my mother was running a children's home in central

:37:04.:37:05.

Birmingham so the first years of my life were spent living in a

:37:06.:37:10.

children's home and being able to see at that age on a daily basis the

:37:11.:37:16.

dedication, the care, the commitment, they love shown by the

:37:17.:37:20.

workers in that children's home but I also know that even the most

:37:21.:37:25.

compassionate and most dedicated social worker cannot possibly

:37:26.:37:30.

replace the care and love of a family. That is why we must surely

:37:31.:37:37.

do everything we can where possible, where there is in a thread of abuse

:37:38.:37:43.

or serious neglect, to hop keep families together. It does seem the

:37:44.:37:47.

pendulum has swung too far towards an assumption that where any kind of

:37:48.:37:53.

concerns are raised that one of the options on the table is to take a

:37:54.:37:58.

child into care and I think that is something we desperately need to

:37:59.:38:10.

address. Nobody would argue against taking a child from an environment

:38:11.:38:15.

where it is at risk of abuse or serious neglect, but the reality is

:38:16.:38:20.

into many of the cases we have seen at our surgeries, that is simply not

:38:21.:38:25.

the assessment that is being made. I had a case come to my surgery

:38:26.:38:30.

shortly before Christmas and having read the magistrate's report, yes,

:38:31.:38:37.

it was based primarily on a chaotic lifestyle and an untidy house. They

:38:38.:38:41.

so clearly issues that need addressing but I don't think they

:38:42.:38:45.

were serious threats to the welfare of the children and certainly not to

:38:46.:38:52.

the safety of the children, so more support could be put into place to

:38:53.:38:57.

help address those issues. It must be better for the families,

:38:58.:39:02.

particularly for the children and of course much more economic for local

:39:03.:39:07.

authorities and for the Government. One aspect of the care system that

:39:08.:39:15.

has not yet been referred to is how we approach mental health of

:39:16.:39:23.

parents. A lot of extremely valuable work has been done by a number of

:39:24.:39:29.

members of this house, particularly the honourable gentleman for North

:39:30.:39:37.

Norfolk, in establishing how the principle of parity of esteem

:39:38.:39:42.

between physical and mental health but this is simply not the case

:39:43.:39:48.

where the care system and assessments overtaking children into

:39:49.:39:53.

care are concerned, where children are being taken into care really

:39:54.:40:00.

parents really are suffering from mental illness and other mental

:40:01.:40:05.

health issues. Yesterday a former Labour councillor in my constituency

:40:06.:40:09.

wrote to me to highlight a case she had been involved with in the past.

:40:10.:40:17.

It concerned a mother of three young children who had nursed her husband

:40:18.:40:20.

through the advanced stages of cancer. Sadly her husband did pass

:40:21.:40:28.

away and the mother, as I think many of us would, struggled to cope.

:40:29.:40:35.

Unfortunately, those three children were taken into care. Rather than

:40:36.:40:39.

making sure the mother receives the support she needed to look after the

:40:40.:40:45.

children or to find a temporary solution, the children were taken

:40:46.:40:49.

into care so not only the mother lost a husband, she lost her

:40:50.:40:55.

children. In a short period of time, the children were taken away from

:40:56.:41:02.

their mother. They were at a different school and they had lost

:41:03.:41:06.

their friends also. This really matters because as has been referred

:41:07.:41:12.

to, the outcomes for children in care are significantly worse than

:41:13.:41:17.

the population as a whole, whether that's employment, housing, the

:41:18.:41:21.

criminal justice system, educational achievement and that has to be

:41:22.:41:27.

because of the things we cannot measure, the enormous psychological

:41:28.:41:30.

and emotional impact of taking children away from their families.

:41:31.:41:34.

The safety and welfare of children must come first but I do not think

:41:35.:41:36.

that always applies. Can I agree with the focus of this

:41:37.:41:46.

debate? In Slough, the care system has sadly not effectively protected

:41:47.:41:52.

children. I am particularly sad that the services trust set up to try and

:41:53.:41:58.

improve these services has not apparently done so effectively. The

:41:59.:42:05.

minister is aware of the case of a two -year-old and I have written to

:42:06.:42:09.

the Secretary of State about it. I would urge that the services trust

:42:10.:42:15.

should be better monitored from the centre. I would like to speak about

:42:16.:42:23.

an issue of children not in the care system but also not able to remain

:42:24.:42:26.

safely at home with family, or extended family. If we do not plan

:42:27.:42:33.

to include these children, I think we will fail to address some of the

:42:34.:42:37.

issues that are urgent in this area and in particular I would like to

:42:38.:42:43.

raise the issue of traffic children. Particularly children trafficked

:42:44.:42:47.

across borders who as a commission report says, are more isolated from

:42:48.:42:54.

protective networks than internally trafficked counterparts. The

:42:55.:43:00.

Government published that report as a result of the pilot introduced on

:43:01.:43:07.

child trafficking advocates. Only after intense pressure from these

:43:08.:43:13.

benches did they agree to introduce any system of protection for

:43:14.:43:19.

trafficked children. These are not guardians with legal powers. The

:43:20.:43:27.

Government only had a pilot of the advocacy system. Unfortunately

:43:28.:43:31.

despite the University of Bedford report making clear that this pilot

:43:32.:43:36.

had been successful, Barnard those have not been commissioned to extend

:43:37.:43:43.

the service they provide and neither has any subsequent service being

:43:44.:43:48.

provided for. I would urge the Minister to speak directly with his

:43:49.:43:53.

colleagues in the Home Office and make sure that there is a continued

:43:54.:43:59.

advocacy, all that a guardianship provision, for these children. -- or

:44:00.:44:10.

better, a guardianship. Some children are still disappearing and

:44:11.:44:17.

it is clear from the report that the reason half of the children who

:44:18.:44:22.

disappeared are overwhelmingly be enemies children trafficked into

:44:23.:44:27.

cannabis farming, half of them disappeared before they had been

:44:28.:44:34.

referred. -- Vietnamese children. In addition, within the report there

:44:35.:44:38.

are clear examples of how advocates worked very hard to protect children

:44:39.:44:46.

at risk of disappearing. But the fact they did not have legal powers

:44:47.:44:52.

and could be ignored by local authorities meant that in one case

:44:53.:44:56.

they were not able to persuade the local authority to put a trafficked

:44:57.:45:00.

child into safe accommodation and the child then disappeared into the

:45:01.:45:09.

hands of traffickers. In other cases they did not persuade a local

:45:10.:45:12.

authority a child was a child and only because of the determination of

:45:13.:45:20.

the advocacy services when that child re-entered the health care

:45:21.:45:23.

system where they discovered again and referred to the Home Office

:45:24.:45:29.

protection system again. I am very concerned indeed that this group of

:45:30.:45:34.

children are falling through the gaps. I am very worried that it has

:45:35.:45:42.

been regarded as an immigration issue and not a child protection

:45:43.:45:46.

issue. I urge the children's minister in responding to this

:45:47.:45:52.

debate to say that he is not prepared to tolerate one bit of the

:45:53.:45:58.

Bedford report where there was not great support for this process,

:45:59.:46:02.

where social workers felt they should have the money rather than

:46:03.:46:06.

child protection advocate, but that he will also make sure that within

:46:07.:46:12.

this month he will speak to the Home Office about continuing to fund

:46:13.:46:18.

proper advocacy services, preferably child guardians with legal powers to

:46:19.:46:23.

stop local authorities from ignoring the need for protection for those

:46:24.:46:29.

children, so these children, like all other children in this country

:46:30.:46:35.

can be properly kept safe. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to

:46:36.:46:43.

congratulate the lady, the honourable gentleman, sorry, for

:46:44.:46:48.

this debate. It is important, how we treat children in society. I would

:46:49.:46:52.

like to bring to the attention of the Minister my experience of having

:46:53.:46:56.

represented a parent whose children are taken into local authority care

:46:57.:47:02.

and also a little bit about the fact I used to represent young people,

:47:03.:47:07.

children with criminal offences and prosecuting adults that had abused

:47:08.:47:11.

young people. I have worked with quite a lot of young people and seen

:47:12.:47:16.

what happened in homes. I would like to concentrate on family law because

:47:17.:47:19.

that is the area we do not get enough attention with. Especially

:47:20.:47:26.

the legal process. I agree with what has been said by everybody, apart

:47:27.:47:30.

from, of course, I do not share a lot of what the honourable gentleman

:47:31.:47:33.

from Northwest and share was saying but apart from that I agree with

:47:34.:47:36.

everything the members have been saying. And that is when HR charges

:47:37.:47:43.

taken into care, nobody says children should not be taken into

:47:44.:47:47.

care. -- when a child is taken into care. What has happened, this is my

:47:48.:47:56.

concern, the pendulum is swinging the other way. Where there is a

:47:57.:48:02.

slight expression of concern for children, the local authorities come

:48:03.:48:05.

and take the child and put them with foster parents and then they deal

:48:06.:48:10.

with the parents. They never try and actually look at the issue. It is

:48:11.:48:16.

often families themselves, maybe lawyers will say, talk to the wider

:48:17.:48:21.

family and say, would you put yourself forward and be a kinship

:48:22.:48:25.

care for these people? Then the family comes forward and it will

:48:26.:48:29.

take about eight weeks to carry out assessments of them to see if they

:48:30.:48:34.

are suitable. One thing I suggest and I asked the Minister, actually

:48:35.:48:39.

urge local authorities and social services that when they take the

:48:40.:48:43.

child into care, maybe they should try and find a family member that

:48:44.:48:49.

could look after the child, because I assure him that a child will

:48:50.:48:54.

always feel happier with an auntie, uncle, older brother, or sister, as

:48:55.:49:00.

opposed to a complete stranger. The second thing I noticed when I

:49:01.:49:06.

practised in this field is children are often appointed a guardian, a

:49:07.:49:11.

lawyer, and the social services are involved, but you rarely talk to the

:49:12.:49:15.

children as to what they want. In one case I was banging my head

:49:16.:49:19.

against a wall, especially with the legal representative, at you spoken

:49:20.:49:23.

to the child about this, have you got any information from them? What

:49:24.:49:27.

do they think? Where do you think they want to live? Complete silence.

:49:28.:49:34.

A wall of silence. I was frustrated. If you want to do this, you should

:49:35.:49:39.

ask these questions and try and find alternative sources. Thirdly, as you

:49:40.:49:45.

probably know, when children are taken into care they sometimes have

:49:46.:49:50.

opportunities to have supervised access to meet the parents in a

:49:51.:49:55.

contact centre. Again, what often happens is it is an awkward date,

:49:56.:50:02.

awkward time, and in awkward places. They are often not frequent

:50:03.:50:04.

visitors. Again, you emphasise with social services, you try to increase

:50:05.:50:09.

the number of visits for the parent and make the location more

:50:10.:50:12.

assessable and allow more quality time with children so when the

:50:13.:50:18.

process is finished, says one year down the road, the child will not

:50:19.:50:21.

have forgotten his parents, or their parents. -- her parents. I asked the

:50:22.:50:29.

Minister to ask social services to look at these aspects. I want to

:50:30.:50:32.

talk about the fact that in relation to babies, I'm sorry to say that

:50:33.:50:38.

there is an unseemly haste to place babies in care. We know most foster

:50:39.:50:43.

parents, most want to adopt, they are happy to adopt babies but people

:50:44.:50:48.

are reluctant to adopt toddlers, and older children. And whenever we have

:50:49.:50:54.

a situation when a woman has got a baby, or a parent with a baby, they

:50:55.:50:59.

are carted away to the adoption system before really working

:51:00.:51:03.

properly with the family to see if the family could help. There will

:51:04.:51:10.

always be families and situations with children where they are very

:51:11.:51:13.

vulnerable and the family is never able to look after them. But in my

:51:14.:51:18.

experience they are in a much smaller minority of cases. We hear

:51:19.:51:22.

about it in the media but not the hundreds of cases which do not fall

:51:23.:51:26.

in that category. We need to talk about thousands of cases were

:51:27.:51:29.

working with the family at home and spending that money given to foster

:51:30.:51:34.

parents on family to improve their homes and help parents look after

:51:35.:51:39.

that, look after their job and, it would be a far better of the money.

:51:40.:51:44.

I would like to make a brief contribution. If people would like

:51:45.:51:47.

to read the unabridged version, it will be on my website at the end of

:51:48.:51:54.

the day. I am the unpaid founder and chair of rebalancing the outer city

:51:55.:51:58.

states charity and the early intervention foundation. I fully

:51:59.:52:03.

support the Lady's motion on the order paper. I'm surprised

:52:04.:52:07.

colleagues by not taking this opportunity again to talk about the

:52:08.:52:11.

need for changing from late intervention philosophy to early

:52:12.:52:15.

intervention. All the need for evidence -based policy making and

:52:16.:52:19.

the need for a what works Organisation for the victims and

:52:20.:52:23.

perpetrators of sexual abuse. Today I would like to take an opportunity

:52:24.:52:29.

to put on record and speak to the need for local people, real people

:52:30.:52:34.

in localities to make a difference in places like my constituency in

:52:35.:52:39.

Nottingham North. In doing that, pay a well-deserved tribute to those

:52:40.:52:43.

connected with the safe families for children programme, for the

:52:44.:52:49.

phenomenal work. Safe families was brought to the UK and started in the

:52:50.:52:53.

North East of England, entirely because of the energy and personal

:52:54.:52:58.

commitment of Sir Peter Vardy. Having spoken to him about my own

:52:59.:53:03.

constituency, with typical generosity he put at Nottingham's

:53:04.:53:08.

disposal his fantastic team led by the Chief Executive Keith Danby, and

:53:09.:53:13.

we worked out how we could take things forward on safe families in

:53:14.:53:19.

Nottingham North. We have planning meetings involving the community,

:53:20.:53:21.

convened under the rebalancing out-of-state charity and Nottingham

:53:22.:53:26.

City Council put its weight behind the idea. Being immersed in our own

:53:27.:53:33.

20-year intervention plan, this programme obviously works with many

:53:34.:53:39.

other facets of Nottingham's early intervention city programme and with

:53:40.:53:44.

the strategy of the far-sighted and talented team led by Katie Ball and

:53:45.:53:50.

Kevin Bamfield. Simply, safe families works with three levels of

:53:51.:53:53.

volunteers and colleagues might wish to take this up in their own

:53:54.:53:57.

constituency. First, family friend of volunteers, trained to have the

:53:58.:54:04.

families, very directly overcome the problems. Secondly, host family

:54:05.:54:09.

volunteers, who look after the children for one night or one week,

:54:10.:54:13.

whatever, after proper criminal record checks, giving the family the

:54:14.:54:18.

time needed to get it together again and thirdly, with source friend

:54:19.:54:25.

volunteers, who like you and me can perhaps contribute a bit of time

:54:26.:54:29.

here and there to help with supply or delivering much-needed household

:54:30.:54:33.

and other items to families in difficulty. Building the volunteer

:54:34.:54:39.

critical Mass has been vital. The wonderful Osborne and the local safe

:54:40.:54:44.

families for children Nottingham team have been brilliant and

:54:45.:54:51.

recruited, trained and approved 240 volunteers in Nottingham and

:54:52.:54:53.

throughout the East Midlands. Sadly, too many to name but I have met many

:54:54.:54:59.

of them. Starting with faith -based communities and spreading to involve

:55:00.:55:05.

people of all faiths and not. 80 months ago from Nottingham North,

:55:06.:55:09.

the city of Nottingham has made 32 referrals and 49 children have been

:55:10.:55:15.

supported, including 32 night postings with more in the pipeline

:55:16.:55:19.

in the next few weeks. The financial benefit is enormous. A small upfront

:55:20.:55:23.

investment of resource, time and effort avoids tens of thousands of

:55:24.:55:28.

pounds in costs for every child not going into care. The average cost of

:55:29.:55:35.

a looked after child is estimated at 48,000, excluding legal cost and

:55:36.:55:39.

staff cost, and we are close in Nottingham to making our own

:55:40.:55:42.

evidence -based savings protection based as we go beyond the 32

:55:43.:55:51.

referrals we have made so far. Safe families for children extended the

:55:52.:55:54.

pilot and became a joint venture with the Department for education

:55:55.:55:58.

children social care an innovation programme and the Nottingham

:55:59.:56:02.

council. As with all ideas we trigger in the rebalancing charity,

:56:03.:56:06.

the idea was pioneering safe families in one place and growing.

:56:07.:56:12.

Now, using Nottingham has a heart, or four of the phase one safe

:56:13.:56:17.

families partners, Derby, Derbyshire, Lincolnshire and

:56:18.:56:20.

Northamptonshire, have been up and running for over one month and all

:56:21.:56:28.

are now making referrals. I would like to ask the Minister

:56:29.:56:30.

specifically if he will raise with the Treasury the possibility of

:56:31.:56:35.

using this as a social investment programme and also if he will make

:56:36.:56:38.

sure every council takes up a summer scheme. -- similar scheme.

:56:39.:56:56.

Can I commend the honourable lady we -- honourable lady. It is clear to

:56:57.:57:09.

me what it says. Before I go any further, can I take this opportunity

:57:10.:57:15.

commend my colleagues on recently passing a vital new law which will

:57:16.:57:19.

make a real and practical difference in the lives of many children in

:57:20.:57:23.

care by removing bureaucracy and putting the needs of the child

:57:24.:57:28.

first. By the 31st of March 2015 there were 2075 children in care. 4%

:57:29.:57:40.

of those being looked after well less than a year, 25% were aged

:57:41.:57:47.

between one and four, 30 4% were aged between five and 11, 24% were

:57:48.:57:56.

aged between 12 and 16. The reason why I have given those statistics

:57:57.:58:01.

for the House is to show the House that the majority of those in care

:58:02.:58:05.

tend to be older children or teenagers. Perhaps the Minister can

:58:06.:58:11.

give us some idea of his having discussions with the Northern

:58:12.:58:16.

Ireland administration. 72% of children were four years old or

:58:17.:58:21.

less. With figures like these, it is little wonder the majority of those

:58:22.:58:29.

in care tend to be slightly older. The figures from the Office of

:58:30.:58:35.

National Statistics claim children are four times more likely to suffer

:58:36.:58:38.

mental health difficulties than those not in care. Children and

:58:39.:58:44.

young people don't get the help early enough, these problems can get

:58:45.:58:49.

worse. These problems can lead to children having challenging and

:58:50.:58:54.

behavioural problems. This then causes yet further problems of

:58:55.:58:57.

children's placements breakdown which will have a Dutch mental

:58:58.:59:01.

impact on their emotional well-being and mental health. This is a

:59:02.:59:06.

Catch-22 situation. A placement breakdown can mean increase costs as

:59:07.:59:11.

a new placement has to be found and is children's mental health grows

:59:12.:59:16.

worse, they need increasingly more specialist placements. The whole

:59:17.:59:21.

thing gets more worse and compensated and complex. The

:59:22.:59:24.

Department for Education revealed their children in care are less

:59:25.:59:27.

likely to be doing well than their peers. These findings are further

:59:28.:59:34.

supported by figures for March 2014 which showed 34% of care leavers

:59:35.:59:38.

were not in education, employment or training by the age of 19. Another

:59:39.:59:47.

statistic that cannot be ignored. Clearly more needs to be done to hop

:59:48.:59:51.

those in care reach their academic potential is. I hope the Minister

:59:52.:59:57.

can explain the steps taken to address this. It is important we get

:59:58.:00:02.

it right for the young people at the correct age whenever they need the

:00:03.:00:06.

direction, focused towards they want to be in adult life. More than half

:00:07.:00:11.

of children are taken into care because of abuse or neglect and

:00:12.:00:18.

25-35% of sexually exploited children are in care. There are a

:00:19.:00:22.

number of charities who work to provide support and help for

:00:23.:00:26.

children in the circumstances but much more needs to be done and more

:00:27.:00:32.

needs to be taking place from the Minister and his department. I hope

:00:33.:00:37.

he will be able to tell the House what the Department is doing to

:00:38.:00:40.

support children who have suffered abuse. There are currently over

:00:41.:00:46.

50,000 children identified as needing protection from abuse in the

:00:47.:00:53.

UK. It has been estimated that for every child identified, a further

:00:54.:00:56.

eight are suffering from child abuse. If those stats are correct,

:00:57.:01:01.

this is an enormous problem which the Minister has to respond to. It

:01:02.:01:06.

is little wonder why so many of those leaving care struggle with

:01:07.:01:10.

mental health and all behavioural issues and instead of using children

:01:11.:01:14.

to and fro, we need to help them deal with and overcome their

:01:15.:01:19.

experiences. We have to do more to help the vulnerable in society. Not

:01:20.:01:24.

only help children realise their potential, but how cut costs in the

:01:25.:01:35.

system. I am delighted to participate in this debate today on

:01:36.:01:40.

such an important issue. Indeed, after the cities of Glasgow and

:01:41.:01:45.

Dundee, my own local authority has the highest rate of looked after

:01:46.:01:51.

children in Scotland with 2.1% of young people currently being looked

:01:52.:01:56.

after. In contrast with England where the figure is rising, there

:01:57.:01:59.

has been progress in Scotland in recent years with a 3% fall in the

:02:00.:02:03.

number of looked after children from 2013. I make that point because it

:02:04.:02:11.

is important that lessons are learned and best practice is shared

:02:12.:02:15.

in all corners of the United Kingdom. There are no easy answers

:02:16.:02:18.

but there is much more that can be done. I listened with enormous

:02:19.:02:28.

interest to the contribution from the honourable member from Hull

:02:29.:02:31.

West. He talks about the fact that children are very often effectively

:02:32.:02:37.

kicked out of residential care at the arbitrary age of 16. In Scotland

:02:38.:02:43.

under the SNP government, young people in Foster, kinship or

:02:44.:02:47.

residential care may extend their stay until the age of 21. Under the

:02:48.:02:52.

provisions of children and young People's act. The SNP government has

:02:53.:02:57.

further committed to providing support up to the age of 26 for care

:02:58.:03:02.

leavers to hug them move to independent living. It has been

:03:03.:03:07.

pointed out by several people in this debate so far that in terms of

:03:08.:03:13.

reducing the number of children entering care, the focus must be on

:03:14.:03:17.

preventative work and early intervention to support children and

:03:18.:03:23.

young people and their families. Importance must be placed on early

:03:24.:03:27.

engagement to support and build on the assets within families and

:03:28.:03:31.

communities to prevent children being looked after whenever that is

:03:32.:03:36.

possible. I agree that one of the most effective ways of providing

:03:37.:03:42.

care is by way of kinship care. The work of kinship carers is not always

:03:43.:03:47.

fully understood and all too often it is overlooked entirely. Indeed,

:03:48.:03:52.

kinship care is often far more challenging than many realise and it

:03:53.:03:57.

impacts enormously on the care of our's life as well as the child's.

:03:58.:04:04.

For a grandparent it can be quite a daunting task, particularly when

:04:05.:04:08.

they believe that life is going along a different path than the one

:04:09.:04:13.

they had envisaged. It is wrong to assume as sometimes happens that

:04:14.:04:16.

kinship care is simply a normal family obligation with near seamless

:04:17.:04:21.

transitions from one household to another. The circumstances can often

:04:22.:04:27.

be incredibly complex and difficult to deal with for both the child and

:04:28.:04:33.

the carer. It is important therefore that we do what we can to recognise

:04:34.:04:38.

and confront that reality and his poor kinship carers as they manage

:04:39.:04:42.

in what are often difficult circumstances. In Scotland,

:04:43.:04:50.

supported by the SNP, charities like children first carry out vital work

:04:51.:04:55.

to support kinship carers through its national helpline and kinship

:04:56.:04:59.

care service which of this advice, support and information to kinship

:05:00.:05:04.

carers. Over the years, the SNP government have been moving in the

:05:05.:05:08.

right direction to provide additional support to kinship

:05:09.:05:11.

carers. Indeed the current government was the first to

:05:12.:05:16.

introduce kinship care payments. The children and young people act in

:05:17.:05:21.

Scotland also provided specific legal entitlements to support

:05:22.:05:24.

kinship carers and for eligible children themselves. We know that

:05:25.:05:30.

financial support is of huge importance when we consider the

:05:31.:05:33.

increased costs of raising a dependent child and the fact that

:05:34.:05:38.

43% of kinship carers have to give up work to fulfil that role

:05:39.:05:41.

undoubtedly causing a financial strain. By supporting those caring

:05:42.:05:48.

for our children, we support those children themselves and that must be

:05:49.:05:52.

our focus. I was delighted last month when the Scottish Government

:05:53.:05:57.

announced it would provide ?10.1 million to councils in Scotland to

:05:58.:06:01.

raise kinship care allowances to the same level Foster families received,

:06:02.:06:07.

helping to alleviate financial strain and recognising the important

:06:08.:06:11.

work in ship carers undertake. This will help improve the lives of 5200

:06:12.:06:16.

children across Scotland in kinship care. Unfortunately, despite

:06:17.:06:34.

assurances from the UK Government, many of them are affected and I urge

:06:35.:06:40.

the Government to reflect on the assurances that were given to

:06:41.:06:43.

kinship carers during the welfare reform discussions. I will be

:06:44.:06:48.

interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that very point and I

:06:49.:06:54.

would therefore hope members across the chamber recognise the

:06:55.:06:57.

significant strain the welfare reforms have placed on kinship

:06:58.:07:02.

carers and clearly hamper in their ability to provide the necessary

:07:03.:07:06.

care to keep a child within the family unit, and I hope the

:07:07.:07:10.

Government will think again about the impact these reforms have on

:07:11.:07:15.

carers and look at the situation as a matter of urgency. I am grateful

:07:16.:07:20.

this debate has been brought forward today and as I always say, I hope we

:07:21.:07:25.

can share best practice across the border, across the UK as a whole. I

:07:26.:07:36.

want to thank the honourable member for Telford for securing this

:07:37.:07:40.

debate. The debate has been a short but very thoughtful one. Tensions

:07:41.:07:46.

have been rightly focused on how we best help and support struggling

:07:47.:07:50.

families and prevent children entering the care system. This is

:07:51.:07:54.

also a timely debate with research published at the end of last year

:07:55.:07:59.

finding that one in four women return to the family Court after

:08:00.:08:02.

previously having a child child removed along with the number of

:08:03.:08:07.

newborn babies subjected to care proceedings doubling over the last

:08:08.:08:11.

five years. These findings are backed by the Department for

:08:12.:08:15.

Education's figures which showed the number of children in care has

:08:16.:08:21.

reached its highest since 1985 with the total population and 69,000 450.

:08:22.:08:27.

This increase in children entering the care system is seen by many

:08:28.:08:33.

including the education select committee's report into child

:08:34.:08:37.

protection in 2012 as a reaction to the tragic death of baby Peter and

:08:38.:08:42.

is supported by figures showing the majority of children in care is due

:08:43.:08:47.

to neglect or abuse. This tells us more must be done regarding how we

:08:48.:08:51.

support parents at the earliest opportunity is to avoid situations

:08:52.:08:56.

like those of Daniel Pelka and many of the other high-profile cases.

:08:57.:09:02.

They must have a serious rethink about the current strategies to

:09:03.:09:06.

support families and how the huge social, personal and economic costs

:09:07.:09:12.

of children going into care can be avoided. Though there are

:09:13.:09:15.

circumstances where the best case scenario for a child may be for

:09:16.:09:19.

their child to be taken into care based on the risks, this does not

:09:20.:09:24.

mean as a society we should not feel ashamed of this failure to support

:09:25.:09:29.

all families. They're rather to areas that the Government must

:09:30.:09:33.

consider when it comes to reducing the number of children entering the

:09:34.:09:37.

care system, including a more comprehensive early intervention and

:09:38.:09:40.

prevention strategy and improving the support on offer to kinship

:09:41.:09:46.

carers. There is an old African proverb I am sure you are familiar

:09:47.:09:51.

with it, it takes a whole village to raise a child, which reminds us of

:09:52.:09:55.

our collective due to to offer support and help to those who need

:09:56.:10:01.

it most. When abuse and neglect are cited as the main reasons behind a

:10:02.:10:06.

child being taken into care, it is clear that early intervention and

:10:07.:10:10.

prevention programmes are needed to reduce the threat of neglect other

:10:11.:10:15.

child in a family home and avoid the eventuality of a child being taken

:10:16.:10:17.

into care. The manifesto calls for more support

:10:18.:10:36.

to be given to families to help nurture and support a healthy family

:10:37.:10:39.

environment for children to grow up in and I hope the Minister has had

:10:40.:10:44.

the chance to read this excellent manifesto. If he has not, I am sure

:10:45.:10:49.

his honourable friend will send you one. The National Audit Office

:10:50.:10:54.

report cites one of the last Labour government 's greatest achievements

:10:55.:11:01.

as a key measure that can help reduce children entering care. The

:11:02.:11:05.

family focused vision of sure start centres brings together specialists,

:11:06.:11:09.

professionals and practitioners to provide vital information to parents

:11:10.:11:14.

on how to overcome the struggles of being new parents or coping with

:11:15.:11:18.

challenging family circumstances in order that they don't fall apart and

:11:19.:11:23.

descend into situations that will see a child removed. However,

:11:24.:11:27.

according to an investigation last year by the Children's Society, cuts

:11:28.:11:31.

to Whitehall budgets have meant overall spending on early

:11:32.:11:35.

intervention programmes has fallen by 55% or 1.8 billion since 2010.

:11:36.:11:44.

This sort shouted notes of cutting budgets is Dutch to a two division

:11:45.:11:48.

we all share but which was laid out so well in the seminal early

:11:49.:11:54.

intervention the next steps reports where he highlighted the 19

:11:55.:12:01.

intervention programmes as a blueprint for government. The top of

:12:02.:12:06.

the list was the accident family partnership programme which was

:12:07.:12:09.

piloted and has since been rolled out a little but it needs to go

:12:10.:12:15.

further to become universal. We have also seen almost 800 sure start

:12:16.:12:24.

children's Centres closed with many Shia shelves of themselves.

:12:25.:12:33.

The Government are sifting through the consultation responses to the

:12:34.:12:39.

future of sure start and a lack of regress in the report, it is

:12:40.:12:45.

concerning that the following of sure start and the cuts to

:12:46.:12:49.

intervention programmes families rely upon, like parenting classes,

:12:50.:12:54.

drug and alcohol abuse support and domestic violence services, they

:12:55.:12:59.

have not been cited as causes when trying to understand the increase in

:13:00.:13:04.

children entering the care system. The push for greater early

:13:05.:13:07.

intervention is vital to aggressively increase in children

:13:08.:13:11.

entering the care system. We will still have a situation where

:13:12.:13:15.

children will sadly had to be a move from families for their own safety.

:13:16.:13:21.

All efforts must be made so that they are safely placed with extended

:13:22.:13:26.

family members in a kinship care arrangements instead of within the

:13:27.:13:31.

care system where possible. It is estimated there are 200,000 children

:13:32.:13:34.

being raised by kinship carers across the UK. This is a significant

:13:35.:13:40.

number of children being looked after by grandparents and other

:13:41.:13:44.

relatives but we have had little development in support for kinship

:13:45.:13:49.

carers by the Government, which mirrors recent announcements on

:13:50.:13:53.

adoption. Allowing family members to Reichard instead of residential and

:13:54.:13:57.

foster care is important for the developer of the child and can

:13:58.:14:01.

produce a strain on local children services where budgets have been

:14:02.:14:08.

devastated by cuts. It does not mean kinship carers should be seen as a

:14:09.:14:11.

cheaper option for providing care. But as my honourable friend for

:14:12.:14:16.

Kingston-upon-Hull West and Hessel made clear in his speech, they do

:14:17.:14:21.

say the country millions of pounds by providing this care. Many kinship

:14:22.:14:27.

carers become so because of emergency circumstances, meaning

:14:28.:14:31.

that financial cost for raising the child is not acted into the budget

:14:32.:14:38.

so the immediate cost for children to sleep in, it is exacerbated by

:14:39.:14:47.

giving up jobs to look after children. Last year they found 49%

:14:48.:14:55.

of respondents had to give up work permanently while analysis of the

:14:56.:15:01.

2011 sensors found 76% of children living in kinship care were living

:15:02.:15:05.

in deprived households. The lack of joined up thinking is laid the when

:15:06.:15:10.

kinship carers were told to give up their jobs and are chased by DWP and

:15:11.:15:15.

Athos and sanctions for not looking for work as the member for Hessel

:15:16.:15:23.

raised earlier. I am gravely concerned how kinship and foster

:15:24.:15:28.

carers will fare under the proposed two child policy when that comes

:15:29.:15:33.

into force. And can I also echo what my friend said and plead with the

:15:34.:15:38.

Minister for exemptions for kinship and foster care as if that policy

:15:39.:15:43.

goes ahead. This is why it is important if the Government explores

:15:44.:15:45.

how financial costs of the net kinship carer can be alleviated with

:15:46.:15:51.

better access to funding already available and the entitlement on

:15:52.:15:54.

offer to adopt children and foster children, where similar adversity is

:15:55.:16:00.

shared so development is not hindered and regressed. The

:16:01.:16:04.

Government must look at placing a chart with a kinship carer but new

:16:05.:16:08.

guidance for local authorities published last year is helpful in

:16:09.:16:13.

calling for more identification for potential family carers and there is

:16:14.:16:17.

still no statutory duty on local authorities to explore options

:16:18.:16:21.

first. It means many local authorities are looking into kinship

:16:22.:16:24.

care after a child has been placed in the care system, causing up evil

:16:25.:16:32.

for the child and extended family. It is the responsibility of all of

:16:33.:16:35.

us to make sure every child, no matter what circumstances, as a safe

:16:36.:16:40.

home to spend the Charles Uddin. But it is not the place for Ken -- spent

:16:41.:16:48.

their childhood in. Continuing to fail these children is not an

:16:49.:16:52.

option. We cannot fail them. We are the village. We need to help raise

:16:53.:16:58.

them. I hope the Minister realises it is his moment to make a

:16:59.:17:01.

difference to the lives of some of the most vulnerable children in

:17:02.:17:05.

society and I hope he makes it count. Minister. Madam Deputy

:17:06.:17:14.

Speaker, I would like to begin by explaining why I am answering this

:17:15.:17:18.

debate in place of my honourable friend, the Minister of State for

:17:19.:17:23.

children and families and member for Nantwich. I am sorry to tell the

:17:24.:17:29.

House my honourable friend 's, mother Alex Thomson died peacefully

:17:30.:17:33.

at home on Tuesday after a long illness. Many will know that with

:17:34.:17:39.

her husband, Alex fostered around 90 children over 30 years as well as

:17:40.:17:45.

adopting two boys into the family. My honourable friend always said it

:17:46.:17:48.

was living with his mother's seemingly roundel as infuse yes, to

:17:49.:17:53.

give so much love and to desperately needy children that shaped who he is

:17:54.:18:02.

today. -- to give -- seemingly roundel as energy to give so much

:18:03.:18:07.

love to desperately needy children that shaped who he is today. My

:18:08.:18:12.

support to his friends and family. A lot has been said about kinship.

:18:13.:18:19.

First, this is an important debate which has been secured today. A lot

:18:20.:18:25.

has been said about the role of kinship carers. A casual comment was

:18:26.:18:30.

made suggesting that somehow they are overlooked in the care system

:18:31.:18:36.

and I would like to give the chamber the assurance that the, they are

:18:37.:18:42.

very much a part of the department plan and yes, issues have been

:18:43.:18:44.

raised in terms of Welfare Reform Bill, and more reads -- needs to be

:18:45.:18:50.

done but it will be raised in course. I would like to talk about

:18:51.:18:59.

the founder of kinship carers UK, she was awarded an MBE in the New

:19:00.:19:03.

Year 's Honours list. That is because the important research work

:19:04.:19:08.

in support mechanisms for kinship carers, the work they are doing, and

:19:09.:19:11.

I know the member forwards to has brought this to the attention of the

:19:12.:19:15.

Minister a number of times and this highlights it is that kinship carers

:19:16.:19:20.

are important and the two are thinking. More broadly, the decision

:19:21.:19:25.

to take a chart into care, these decisions flowing from that, whether

:19:26.:19:30.

it is returning from a future point, staying in a long-term foster care,

:19:31.:19:36.

or being adopted, they are serious and life changing events. It affects

:19:37.:19:41.

not just children, but families and they are never taken lightly. I

:19:42.:19:45.

welcome the opportunity to set out in very brief terms the Government

:19:46.:19:51.

position, given the time I have. The Prime Minister made clear that the

:19:52.:19:55.

Government is determined no child should be left behind. That

:19:56.:19:59.

determination is even more pronounced when it comes to the most

:20:00.:20:05.

vulnerable children in society. It means robust action to support

:20:06.:20:09.

families and children so the need for children to enter care is

:20:10.:20:14.

reduced. It also means improving the children's care system so when

:20:15.:20:17.

children need to be taken into public care, they are well looked

:20:18.:20:21.

after and supported to fulfil their potential. When they enter the care

:20:22.:20:27.

of the state, the state is the parent and we want the same for

:20:28.:20:32.

these children as we do for our own, the very best start in life. The

:20:33.:20:36.

family rights group and its excellent work has been mentioned in

:20:37.:20:42.

this debate. The Department has funded the group for many years and

:20:43.:20:47.

they provide an invaluable service for many families that have taken on

:20:48.:20:50.

the care of children who are relatives. There is a strong

:20:51.:20:55.

evidence base that the top line should continue to be funded. We

:20:56.:20:59.

will take this into account in forthcoming decisions about future

:21:00.:21:07.

voluntary sector funding. Also the member for West Worthing and

:21:08.:21:12.

Shoreham brought up the issue of the Monro duty. The government

:21:13.:21:15.

acknowledges the vital role early help can play helping families when

:21:16.:21:21.

the need arises and I will say more about that later. The government

:21:22.:21:26.

considered implementing an early help Judy based on that

:21:27.:21:31.

recommendation but concluded an explicit responsibility was not

:21:32.:21:33.

necessary as we had existing statutory provision under the

:21:34.:21:38.

children's act of 2000 for providing the said support. The Government

:21:39.:21:42.

agreed to keep it under review and we continue to do that. -- 2004. We

:21:43.:21:47.

make clear early help services should be part of continued support

:21:48.:21:53.

for vulnerable children. The guidance sets out the need for

:21:54.:21:57.

teachers and health visitors and police to be alert to the indicators

:21:58.:22:00.

of abuse and neglect and work with families and children undertaking

:22:01.:22:04.

early assessment and agree a package of support to prevent needs

:22:05.:22:10.

escalating. More broadly we are committed to making sure that

:22:11.:22:13.

children are protected from the risk of abuse and neglect. We want to

:22:14.:22:19.

make sure they are identified early, have timely and proportionate

:22:20.:22:23.

assessment of individual needs and the right services are provided for

:22:24.:22:26.

them. It does not necessarily mean as many members are taken into care.

:22:27.:22:34.

But nevertheless it is sometimes the right decision that children are

:22:35.:22:37.

taken into care. These decisions are not easy. And the systems in which

:22:38.:22:42.

these decisions are taken can always be improved. Over a two year period

:22:43.:22:51.

up to March 2016 we invested 100 million in the children social care

:22:52.:22:54.

innovation programme supporting 53 projects in the development, testing

:22:55.:23:00.

and spreading of more effective ways to support children and families in

:23:01.:23:02.

need of help on social care services. It concentrates on two

:23:03.:23:10.

priorities. First, rethinking social work and empowering and supporting

:23:11.:23:14.

front line decision-making, making that focus on the quality of work

:23:15.:23:19.

with children and their families rather than management arrangements,

:23:20.:23:23.

process and compliance. Secondly, rethinking support for adoptions on

:23:24.:23:33.

the edge of care. In a world where spending and a lifetime in care, the

:23:34.:23:37.

average length of care is 785 days and we are not talking about

:23:38.:23:40.

supporting children only once they are in care. With the innovation

:23:41.:23:44.

programme we have also supported a number of projects finding different

:23:45.:23:48.

ways to support children and their families before it reaches that

:23:49.:23:52.

stage. There are a number of projects I cannot, given the time I

:23:53.:23:57.

have got, go into detail about. But I can say that a lot of what we are

:23:58.:24:03.

looking at, a lot of what we are looking at is drawing together a lot

:24:04.:24:07.

of practical work which can actually deliver for children who find

:24:08.:24:12.

themselves in all of these vulnerable situations. Despite this

:24:13.:24:17.

very good work it is however inevitable that there will always be

:24:18.:24:21.

times when local authorities are required to take action and take

:24:22.:24:25.

children into care. In the end there is one fundamental question that the

:24:26.:24:30.

children act requires, what is in the best interests of the child? In

:24:31.:24:37.

the preventative work I have touched on, we have also taken important

:24:38.:24:40.

measure to make sure when children are taking into care, they are safe

:24:41.:24:45.

and well looked after. -- taken. We have reformed the care planning

:24:46.:24:53.

regulations to improve the safety of children in residential care,

:24:54.:24:57.

including safeguards for when children are placed out of the area

:24:58.:25:01.

and go missing. We have introduced quality standards for residential

:25:02.:25:06.

settings and work is under way with reviews on how better coordination

:25:07.:25:10.

and planning can be achieved across the secure children's services for

:25:11.:25:15.

better provision. A lot of work is being done. It has been set up over

:25:16.:25:20.

the last few months by my honourable friend, the Minister of State.

:25:21.:25:25.

Again, I congratulate the minute -- member for Telford and the rest of

:25:26.:25:29.

the members for bringing this debate forward and I look forward to

:25:30.:25:33.

working with the House to making this world a better place for

:25:34.:25:38.

vulnerable children. Lucy Allen. I extend my condolences to the member

:25:39.:25:41.

for Crewe and Nantwich and I thank all of the members here today taking

:25:42.:25:46.

the time to take such thoughtful contributors to this issue. I hope

:25:47.:25:50.

it marks the beginning of this subject becoming something we talk

:25:51.:25:54.

about more often. I am grateful to the Minister for listing to our

:25:55.:25:57.

ideas, thoughts and experience which we personally bring to this issue

:25:58.:26:01.

and ultimately it is about enhancing the life chances of the most of

:26:02.:26:05.

honourable children. That is something we share as a common

:26:06.:26:08.

interest and I am grateful to all members and the Minister. Thank you.

:26:09.:26:14.

The question is has on the order paper. As many as are of the

:26:15.:26:19.

opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. I beg to

:26:20.:26:28.

move this House now adjourned. The question is this House do now

:26:29.:26:31.

adjourned. I am grateful for this opportunity

:26:32.:26:43.

to raise an issue which is disadvantage in case more but

:26:44.:26:45.

runnable group of children in our country. Many of these are already

:26:46.:26:49.

seriously disadvantage. Any extra problem is one which forces

:26:50.:26:51.

considerable hardship. -- causes.

:26:52.:26:55.

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