Live Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia Question House of Commons

matched some of the families I met waiting on the waiting list that you

wish to turn a blind eye to. Order! Hilary Benn. Thank you. Will the

Secretary of State make a statement on arms sales to Saudi Arabha in

light of the report of potential breaches of international

humanitarian law in Yemen? @s the Prime Minister said yesterd`y, the

Government takes its arms exports responsibilities seriously `nd

operates one of the most robust arms export control regimes in the world.

All export licence applicathons are assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Against the consolidated EU and national arms export licenshng

criteria. Taking into account all relevant factors at the timd of the

application. A license will not be issued for any country, if to do so

would be inconsistent with `ny provision of the mandatory criteria,

including reassess their is a clear risk that it might be used hn the

commission of a serious violation of international humanitarian law. All

arms exports to Saudi Arabi` are scrutinised in detail through

established processes and against the EU National Consolidated

criteria. The Government is aware that the UK supply of defence

equipment has been used in Xemen and we take seriously any alleg`tions of

IHL violations and regularlx raise the importance of compliancd with

the Saudi Government and other members of the military coalition,

as I did when I visited Saudi Arabia on Monday. We have sent that all

allegations of IHL violations should be investigated. The MOD monitors

incidents of alleged IHL violations using available information, which

in turn informs our overall assessment of IHL compliancd in

Yemen. The Government is satisfied that extant licences for Satdi

Arabia are compliant with the UK export licensing criteria. But Mr

Speaker, as the House knows, the situation in Yemen is compldx and

difficult. The UK supports elliptically the Saudi-led coalition

intervention, which came at the request of the legitimate president

to deter aggression by the Houthis. And allowed for the return of the

legitimate Yemen Government. We have been clear with all parties that

military action should be t`ken in accordance with IHL. The co`lition

has played a crucial role in reversing the military advance of

the Houthis and forces loyal to the former president, which is now

helping to create conditions for the return of the legitimate Yelen

Government. Military gains lust be used to drive forward the political

process. The UN facilitated political talks, and the UK's top

priority, likely to commencd in February. I thank the Minister for

his reply. As the House knows, there is a humanitarian catastrophe in

Yemen, as a result of the chvil war. Over 7000 people have been killed.

2.5 million have been displ`ced and millions more are left without food.

We all want to see the return of a legitimate Government to Yelen but

NGOs, including Doctors without Borders and Human Rights Watch, have

reported breaches of intern`tional monetary law all sides and the UN

has spoken out about what is happening. Yesterday, it cale to

light that the United Nations panel of experts on Yemen's final report

has, documented that the co`lition has conducted air strikes, targeting

civilians and civilian objects in violation of international

humanitarian law. It refers to weddings, civilian vehicles,

residential areas, schools, mosques, markets and factories. I understand

the Government received this report on Monday. Can the Minister said

that what specific action, hf any, has been taken since receivhng it?

The panel document in 119 coalition examples of violations of

humanitarian law. We know that arms sold to Saudi Arabia are behng used

in this conflict, as they c`n be legitimately, however, her `rms

export licensing criteria state clearly that the Government will not

grant a licence if there is a clear risk that the items might bd used in

the commission of a serious violation of international lonetary

and law. Can the Minister therefore explain how many of these incidents

have been examined and why he is satisfied that IHL has not been

breached? How many of the htndred and 90 Saudi-led coalition dvent

have British personnel, who we know are on the ground, provided a quick

check on, given that the Foreign Secretary told the House th`t there

is no evidence of deliberatd breaches of international Unitarian

law. How can the Minister spuare that statement with the conclusion

of the UN panel of experts? Can the Minister assure the House that he

has not received reports from our personnel of any breaches of

international monetary and law and not just deliver it preaches? Given

all the reports, and partictlarly in light of the new findings of the UN

panel, can the ministry explain to the House, on what grounds there

should not be a proper investigation into whether there is a cle`r risk

that Tish Arms might be used in the commission of a serious violation of

international humanitarian law? And given the detail of the UN panel's

report on the extreme seriotsness of its findings, will the Government

now suspend arms sales to S`udi Arabia until that investigation

concludes? This is about whdther the Government is implementing hts own

arms control rules. Appearing to be reluctant to do so, does it no

credit. Nor does it help those affected by this conflict, which

urgently needs to come to an end. Thank you. Firstly, can I bdgin by

thanking the right honourable gentleman for the tone and lanner in

which he raises this import`nt issue? Is right to be given by

outlining the Germanic and catastrophe that we face thdre, with

so many people failing to gdt necessary food. -- the humanitarian

catastrophe. Sadly, we have seen that the Houthis are using food as a

weapon of war and taking drtgs away from NGOs and from Saudi Ar`bia and

the tracks they provide. Thd trucks, food, water has been stolen and

distributed by the Houthis themselves to favour support in a

country which we should unddrstand is extremely complex. Even the

concept of a nation state is very modern in a country that has for

thousands of years in conducted in a tribal society, where loyalty is to

the family and the communitx and they tried.

The way need to see evidencd, we need to see the details in order for

us to make firm judgments, rather than to make judgments on hdarsay or

photographs. To understand the situation in a dynamic situ`tion of

warfare, this is how it shotld be conducted. We are aware that the

Houthis, who are far more mddia savvy in this situation, I tsing

their own artillery pieces to deliberately target individtals of

areas who are not loyal to the Houthis in order to give thd

impression that there have been air attacks. This is not to exonerate

any of the mistakes that might have been made by Saudi Arabia, which is

why it is so important therd is a thorough process to investigate

absolutely every single inchdent. During my visit this week, H made it

very clear that whilst we now have the process to be followed, as we

have seen in other countries and what happened in Afghanistan, we are

now seen it there in Saudi @rabia. It must be improved. Every time an

alleged incident is put forward by the United Nations or by another

country, Saudi Arabia must conduct the necessary process to confirm

exactly what has happened, `nd whether the aircraft were involved.

If the wearer, they must put their hand up and follow the due process

is of international law. He made references to a report, the UN panel

of experts, he has got a copy of it and I do as well, but it is a leaked

report. It was received to the UN on Monday, not to us. We have not

officially received a report. Yes, of course I have got it, but I have

not received it and I haven't had time... I haven't received ht

officially. If the honourable gentleman could hang on to his seat.

It is important that we are able to digest this. What I have re`d is

that I will firstly take thhs seriously. I commit to inviting to

sit down with the Saudi Arabia diplomats at a senior level, firstly

in Rome, where the counter- commission will be meeting. We will

sit down and discuss the allegations and all the information that is in

this important report. But we should also recognise is that the `ctual

people who wrote this report did not visit Yemen, they did not actually

go there. They are basing this on satellite technology. We do not

dismiss it, we take it very seriously indeed, and I comlit

myself to sit down with the Saudi Arabians to make sure we go through

this with a fine tooth comb. But can I just make it clear that wd must do

this in a methodical way whhch is based on evidence and follows the

processes. He talks about the numbers of sorties that havd taken

place and yes there are manx questions already is, but wd also

have to understand the thousands of sorties that do take place `nd put

them in context. It is clear from what the Prime Minister said and the

Foreign Secretary of state said that we are not part of this coalition,

we are not part of the targdting sale, but it is important that we

make sure, because of the epuipment we are selling to Saudi Arabia, that

due process is absolutely followed. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The difficult

truth here is it not that the charge sheet laid out in this report and

repeated by the Shadow Forehgn Secretary is a charge sheet that

could have been laid against us and other countries in conducting

military operations in the past And the lesson that has to be ldarned is

that operating outside of the law is obsolete self-defeating. -- is

utterly self-defeating. How can we keep those operations within the

rule of law? I am grateful to the chairman of the foreign aff`irs

select committee. He raises a very important point, that whatever

operations we are operating in, there must be the same procdsses of

when collateral damage absolutely takes place. It must apply to us and

to Saudi Arabia. It is fair to say that Saudi Arabia have not been fast

enough to express the details of the report and we must make surd that

happens. That was one of thd purposes of my visit, to ensure that

there is transparency and that people are aware of exactly when

there is collateral damage caused and that they are responsible for.

But also when they are not hnvolved. If I may give you an exampld of

that. An embassy was allegedly hit. That message came round, it lacked

around Twitter. We sent our local staff to the Iranian embassx and

actually, there was no real damage at all. And that is an indication of

how we need to get to the truth and make sure everything is evidence

based. I am sure everyone in this House will agree that the rdport

that arrived at the UN is ddeply worrying and raises serious

questions about the UK arms exports to Saudi Arabia. It also rahses

questions about what the Brhtish military advisers are currently

doing an Saudi Arabia, parthcularly as this report states that Xemen

civilians have been deliber`tely starved as a tactic of war by the

Saudi coalition. It is worth remembering that last year, this

Government gave just ?75 million in aid to Yemen, while at the same time

raking in ?5.5 billion in profits from arms sales over the last five

years. Mr Speaker, it is now time for an immediate ban on arms sales

between the UK and Saudi Ar`bia And it is time for this Governmdnt to

make good on its promise of arms treaty trades that they havd signed

up to. Could the Minister tdll me tell me when they will investigate

this case? Welly he make a firm commitment to what the unitdd

nations and support a national enquiry? -- will he make a firm

commitment? I am sorry to hdar it this is the position of the Scottish

Nationalists, to say you're willing to take what you hear in thd media

and then turn that into British foreign policy. That is incorrect.

We need to on evidence. My honourable friend has confirmed

there are many cases where H and MOD choose to actually refuse the

continuation or indeed the start of a licence because we believd the

situation has changed. We do that based on evidence. We do th`t when

we know the facts. We do not do a knee jerk reaction and then realise

that perhaps we were wrong, or possibly be might have been right.

With the Minister confirm the strength and presence of militant

organisations such as Al-Qadda in Yemen? My honourable friend raises a

very important point and shows the complexity of the situation. Sadly,

the governor was killed, not by the Houthis, but indeed by Daesh, who

are developing a presence there The port of McCalla, which is ftrther

down the east coast, is enthrely run, Mr Speaker, by Al-Qaed`. This

shows you that the extremists are based there and Al-Qaeda in Yemen,

they are allegedly responsible for the Charlie Hebdo attack and for

other attacks. They are exactly what we are trying to defeat, but they

are embedding themselves in a country where governance is missing.

I am sure the Minister would agree that the select committee on arms

export controls and the chahrmanship of Sir John Stanley, I was ` member

of that for 15 years, it pl`yed a very useful role in checking some of

the export the Government h`d agreed to and that we had 100 revolts? Now,

that committee has a very useful role to play. Why has it not met for

the last eight months? I don't know why it has not met. I wanted to

meet. She makes a very powerful point. It is not the gift of the

Government. This is an important, a critical committee. The one

committee that can provide the details and scrutiny in the way the

great Sir Stanley did is ex`ctly what is missing here. Of thd three

international facing committees it is the greatest. I very much

encouraged this committee to form as as soon as possible so that they can

scrutinise the Government and the executive. As the Right honourable

member for Leeds Central sahd, and as the Minister accepted, there is a

humanitarian crisis of unprdcedented magnitude unfolding in Yemen, which

we learn from the UN last Atgust. It is critical that humanitari`n aid

gets into the country and for those purposes, that seaports are opened

up. Will the Minister say when he expects that to happen and what we

and indeed others are doing to make sure it does happen? Well, ly

honourable friend makes a powerful point and I acknowledge his

expertise and interest in this area. The logistics of getting

humanitarian aid across the country is severely limited, becausd it has

to go through the main port in the south. It is therefore crithcal that

the port on the red Sea coast is opened up as soon as possible. But

this cannot happen, because it is an Houthis hands and there is damage. I

know it is a priority for the UN. We will be discussing this verx matter,

to open up that port as as soon as possible, to a load swift ahd to

enter the country. We are not being tracked into involvement into a

conflict that is ancient, ddep, complex. This is exactly thd trap

that Al-Qaeda is laying. Th`t is to provoke the West, by terrorhsm and

other actions, to foment a world war between Christians and Muslhms.

Could the minister explain why the Saudis are our allies in thd Yemen

and our daily enemies in Syria and Iraq? Mr Speaker, I could not

disagree with him more. The idea that this is none of our business...

I just gave a list of terrorist groups growing and actually growing

in this country. Strategically, this is so important, not just for Yemen,

but for the wider region as well. It affects Iran and Saudi Arabha. We

chair the Friends Of. Yemen It is part of our heritage and our

history. There is expectation that we showed leadership year and that

is manifested not just in Gdrmanic TV and support, but in the political

work to support the UN envox. May I commend my honourable friend for a

very measured and well-informed response? Would he not agred with me

that the kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a very important ally to thd UK

upon whom we depend for a vhtal intelligence for the security of our

people? That thousands of hhghly skilled jobs in the UK are directly

dependent upon our defence dxports to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and

thirdly, that we do not withhold defence equipment exports to the US,

and they make mistakes in their targeting? We can help Saudh Arabia

avoid future mistakes. Mr Speaker, Saudi Arabia is an important ally in

the region, as I titillated in my last response. From a regional,

historical perspective as wdll. It is because of that strong

relationship that this Government and indeed previous governmdnts are

able to have frank conversations which are able to affect ch`nge We

want to change to happen at pace, but it has not happened at one that

will work. The conversations I was able to have whilst they're covered

a range of issues, not least with human rights, not least with the

juveniles, not least with ghving women the right to drive. These were

issues we were able to disctss and try to move forward on. Tens of

thousands of workers in this country and their livelihoods are rdliant on

defence of exports. I am proud that the Labour Government in 2002

brought in an arms regulation control act, which regulates our

defence exports. Will he usd his office to take up the suggestion

made by my right honourable friend that he should look at thesd

investigations? Could I also ask him to resist any attempt to boxcott

arms sales to Saudi Arabia before the evidence is looked at? Because

all that would happen is th`t gap would be filled by countries

exporting arms wouldn't know robust regulations, as we have. Mr Speaker,

may I pay tribute to the honourable gentleman's interest and expertise

in defence matters. I know he studied these were many years and

Labour is to be congratulatdd for the introduction of that important

act. The honourable lady also has expertise in this region. This

committee is critical. It is missing from this chamber for now, `nd it is

important to to get back up and running as soon as possible. Will my

honourable friend detail thd contribution the UK is making it to

alleviate suffering in the Xemen? I could. A short answer would be,

please, take a look at the Hansard of yesterday's select committee

when myself and my right honourable friend stood in front of thd

committee and spelt out in detail our commitments. We have ovdr almost

?100 million towards that ntmber and I hope that will increase. The

difficulty is getting the ahd into the country itself. We are `lso

providing funds to support the UN envoy in order that we can support

the political process as well. The minister says he has thd report

but has not received it. He says he will read it and take it seriously.

But he has said he will sit down with the Saudis and go throtgh this

with a fine tooth,. Does he not understand that he sounds as though

he is more ready to offer observations on internation`l public

relations than he is to enstre there is a fool observation of

international humanitarian law? As I said, I will sit down and invite the

Saudis, we have opportunitids to go through this with a fine tooth comb,

we need to look at the eviddnce comparing to what is going on and

make sure proper process is followed. The conflict in Ydmen has

been described as the forgotten war. Can my honourable friend confirm

whether the unrest in North Yemen is confined only to Yemen or is it

spilling over into the Saudh territory? This is an important

point. Firstly, on the first line that this is seen as the forgotten

war. This came up in the select committee hearing yesterday. And

that does almost seem to be the case. It is very sad, perhaps a

reflection of the challenges we face, not just in the Middld East,

but Ukraine we could add to that as well, it is important the

international community does not turn its back on what is gohng on

there. The scale of the mondtary catastrophe that could unvehl their

would be much bigger than what we have seen in Syria, or Iraq or

indeed anywhere else. We nedd to focus on that. On the second part of

her question, she is correct. The war is not simply contained in the

country itself that every shngle day there are missile attacks from

Houthi operated areas of North Yemen into southern Saudi Arabia. Over 300

Saudi Arabians have been killed because of what is going on there.

That should not be ignored. The Minister will recall that I wrote to

him about this matter previously and in his reply he said that wd

regularly raise concern with coalition through diplomatic

channels. He said that Saudh Arabian authorities have given assurance

they are complying with IHL. On the subject of cluster munitions, the

Government has encouraged the Saudis to follow guidelines. Members are

concerned that the Government are not adopting a particularly

challenging attitude towards the Saudis, when you combine it with the

Minister statement about behng disappointed at the execution of

people in Saudi Arabia. Will the Minister do something concrdte? Ask

the Ministry of Defence to look at this and if necessary goal for the

grant of previous claims about IHL breaches? He is right to sax they

are not a signatory of that convention and we are encouraging

that to happen. As I said, the extant licenses that we havd

provided and the allegations, we match that up an information we

have, or request more inforlation and where we are not satisfhed, we

have further discussions. These are ongoing. We are calling on Saudi

Arabia to make sure that, jtst as they did with the Medecins Sans

Frontieres attack, already launched an investigation, that further

investigations are opened as soon as possible. Does my right honourable

friend, sorry, my honourabld friend, agreed with me that in addition to

the problems caused by international terrorist organisation, thex are

just building upon terror the complicated tribal structurds within

Yemen and it is not just about the conflicts between President Hadi and

the Houthis. This is right. This country is a relatively new country,

by any extent of the imagin`tion. Wingback even to the Ottoman times,

when we were controlling ond part of it as a protectorate. The glue that

holds it together is not strong It is tribal based. There are 34 major

tribes and then there some communities of loyalties under that.

Each one is not necessarily committed to one side or thd other

but they are waiting to see which way the wind blows. If the dvidence

in the UN report is upheld hn due course, that the Saudis havd been

using cluster weapons, brought by British aircraft, on civili`n

population, which can only exacerbate the political crhsis in

Yemen, if that evidence is tpheld, will the Minister undertake to ban

weapons sales to Saudi Arabha, or will just give them a limp slapped

on the wrist? Mr Speaker, as you're sure I can imagine, I will not go

into hypotheticals, I have committed myself to take this report, to speak

with the Saudi Arabians, to see what we can do to move forward and to

confirm what the recommendations report has actually said. C`n my

honourable friend outline the extent of humanitarian aid given bx Saudi

Arabia to the Yemen? I belidve it is quite extensive. Is that thd actions

of an irresponsible country? There is a wide variety of things the full

coalition are doing in addition to the military campaign which we read

so much about in the media. Not just Saudi Arabia, Jordan, United Arab

Emirates, and so forth. As `re liberated, they are stabilising to

provide support and allow a transition from war to peacd, all of

the Arab countries are involved in this. Is this not a big yes,

Minister? The Minister has ` report but has not received it? Is that not

a recipe for inaction? During the occupation of Gaza, he said he would

look at suspending arms salds to Israel but having looked at it, the

damage had been done and several thousands of civilians had been

killed. Is that not what will happen here? Will he suspend any s`le while

there is any evidence and then make a decision? I am being asked to

comment on daily to report. It is important I have time to digest the

full report. Even if I had had an opportunity to do that, even from

what I understand the report, the seriousness of deserves absolute

detailed scrutiny, not just here by us, but with the Saudi Arabhans

That is a commitment I have already made to this House. Since the

opening of the Suez Canal in the 19th century, the waters around the

Yemen have been key international trade routes and therefore there are

security is a direct concern for ourselves. Maintaining stabhlity in

the Yemen is important to kdeping them safe, what assessment has he

made of strengthening the Ydmeni Armed Forces? I can answer this

twofold. The Yemeni Armed Forces are receiving training. The Yemdni army

is improving and able to hold ground, not least around thd port of

Aden. Which is critical for the safe passage in the area. There hs also

the UN maritime capability `s well. UN convoys need to be able to come

in. At the moment, they are being denied by the Houthis. The

Parliamentary Undersecretarx for state responsible for the Mhddle

East is reportedly lobbying Saudi Arabia to promote its so-called

human rights successors. Now the Minister clarify this is thd case?

And respond to criticism th`t it is little more than a PR exerchse from

a Government determined to laintain a multi-billion pound arms trade

with the Saudi regime? I am sorry about the last comment. She and I

have discussed these issues in House in Westminster and privatelx. I hope

she will recognise that the words have been written, I think ht was by

the independent who used a Google translator system, to take some

Arabic words and turn them hnto English, which ended up being not

what I said at all. We have now issued a press release confhrming

exactly what I said, what I raised at some of the meetings. Thd

overview of what I raised at the meetings. I can assure her that at

every single meeting I had `t every level, I raised human rights issues

across the spectrum of mattdr is that this House debates on ` regular

basis. The unrelenting blanket bombing of Yemen, the murder of

innocents, the destruction of property, cause great concern. What

also causes concerning the `buse of human rights. Also, the orchestrated

persecution of Christians, `rrested in their homes, imprisoned,

deported. Christians are second-class citizens in Satdi

Arabia. We should hold all `rms sales to Saudi Arabia until they

improve human rights and stop executing Christians. What

discussions has the Minister had with Saudi Arabia in relation to

that? I would like to pay tribute to the work he does in this arda,

raising human rights issues affecting Christians and others It

is right that they are not receiving the same level of support and rights

in parts of the Middle East. These are things we reasonably can basis.

If I may, I will speak to hhm of lying to speak to him in more detail

about this. That would be more appropriate. I raised, both in PMQs

and when we had a statement on executions about the Medecins Sans

Frontieres hospital that was hit by missiles. Can the Minister confirm

that incident has been spechfically investigated because we're providing

those very weapons? Yes. I pay tribute to the work she does. I know

she comes to this House with a huge amount of experience on the medical

side and I think the House hs the wiser for it. She raises thhs as an

important issue. I gave confirmation area that this investigation is

already going ahead. The UK Government has licensed billions of

pounds of weapons to Saudi @rabia. It has now recorded that UK forces

were present. The UN report says that attacks have targeted

civilians. What will it takd to acknowledge that knowing all this,

we have a clear responsibilhty to stop selling arms to Saudi @rabia? I

ask with respect that this particular narrative, that somehow

Britain, British soldiers are involved in the targeting cdll, is

actually stopped. The Prime Minister made that clear, indeed, I think in

response to the Scottish Nationalists, to say that wd're not

part of the coalition. We'rd not in the targeting cell and therdfore not

privy to that information itself. What we call for is absolutdly the

robust process that must be followed if an incident is reported. The UK

has practically build the modern Saudi state. It was UK workdrs who

extracted the oil, who built the roads and UK doctors and nurses who

provided modern medicine. Plenty evidence of the British. Whdn will

we see a bit of the British stick beyond the usual platitudes? I spoke

to the honourable gentleman of lying. He is aware of what we try to

do in order to advance change in this country. It is a difficult

thing to do. It is a very, very new state. This is the Royal falily The

leadership there is on the liberal wing of a very conservative country.

There is a pace of change that works. If you want to see a move any

faster, he should bear in mhnd that there is a possible consequdnce that

if you would like to see Dadsh spread, and they have made ht clear

they want to take over their own custodianship of the holy chties,

that is exactly what we will get. So, absolutely, I stand with them in

wanting to affect change but it must happen at a pace that is workable. A

transparent Government would welcome the setting up of a committde on

arms export controls, inste`d of saying it is not within the gift of

Government, can he advise the House what the Government is doing to

facilitate the setting up of the committee? And if there are any

problems in setting it up? H am calling for it. I want it. H think

it is very important. It is not Mr Speaker, in my gift. It is, I

understand, the responsibilhty of the three committee chairman who are

internationally facing. It hs for them. It is vital that the committee

is up and running as soon as possible. If there is one ottcome of

today, I hope it is that thhs committee will emerge.

I have to notify the House that Her Majesty has signified her royal

assent to the following acts. Cities and local government devolution act

2016. Psychoactive substancds act 2016. Order. Business questhon, Mr

Chris Bryant. The Leader of the House. Mr Speaker, the business for

next week. On the 1st of February, we'll have the second reading of the

Bank of England reading, after which they will be a debate on thd future

of the Financial Conduct Authority, chosen by the backbench comlittee.

Unsure as day, we'll have a second reading of the enterprise Bhll and

after that emotion related to the House of Commons Commission. On wed

instead, they will be opposhtion 's day, a debate