Browse content similar to 04/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
hearted apology for my failure to observe this important rule. I thank | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
the honourable gentleman for what he has said. We now come to the select | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
committee statement. The chair of the relevant select committee, Mr | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
Bernard Jenkin, will speak on his subject for up to ten minutes, | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
during which, as those familiar with the procedure will realise and those | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
who are not will now learn, no interventions will be taken. At the | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
conclusion of his statement, I will call or whoever is in the chair will | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
call, members to put questions on the subject and Mr Bernard Jenkin to | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
return to those questions. Interventions should be brief and | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
the front bench may take part in questioning. I call the chair of the | :00:52. | :01:02. | |
committee, Mr Bernard Jenkin. I am very grateful to the back bed | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
business committee for the opportunity to make this statement | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
are now report entitled the collapse of Kid's Company. We found an | :01:12. | :01:21. | |
extraordinary catalogue of failings of governance had taken part -- | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
taken place in this charity. First may I say how it will be obvious how | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
many feel blamed by this report but we set about investigating this with | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
a view to finding lessons to be learned, not to find blame. Unless | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
we can learn lessons, there will be an increased likelihood that events | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
like this will be repeated. First on the question of professional firms, | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
the charity's auditors repeated in every audit letter that reserves in | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
this charity were very low. The charity never acted on this advice | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
and instead were keen to trumpet each year what they called a clean | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
audit. Under questioning, the auditors said the charity had been | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
living permanently on a knife edge. This sense of urgency was not | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
communicated in their former adviser to the company. He also candidly | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
admitted that the count -- the auditors should have informed the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Charity commission of their concerns under section 156 of the charities | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
act, 2011. Here is a lesson that I hope all auditors will learned. We | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
also cross-examined PKF, he did an investigation into the governance | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
and controls of the charity on behalf of the Cabinet Office. We | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
were concerned about how they evolved the remit of Government | :03:00. | :03:16. | |
controls and this report came to be of limited value in the Cabinet | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
Office. Although it was read, it did not have the value that was | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
intended. This raises the question about how the Government manages | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
professional firms as well as how they conduct themselves in regards | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
to their professional responsibilities. We also looked for | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
advice from PricewaterhouseCoopers but two had so little time in the | :03:38. | :03:47. | |
run-up to the collapse of Kid's Company, that what they gave us was | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
a very little value. PWC should have been much more candid with the | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Government about how much value their work could be to the | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
Government. For the Charity commission, the Charity commission | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
has a statutory duty to tackle abuse and mismanagement in charities. It | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
did not do so with kids Company. Prior to 2015, the Charity | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
commission did not engage with Kid's Company as it received very few | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
complaints. Why did so people -- so few people complain to the Charity | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
commission, given that this was a charity with mixed reputation for so | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
long? The Charity commission should have a much higher profile in order | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
to attract complaints, as an avenue for complaints, and be much more | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
responsive to concerns raised about the charity. | :04:45. | :04:58. | |
The Government needs to reverse cuts in the Charity commission to enable | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
it to carry out its function. We also recommend it takes new powers | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
to hold hearings and produce reports and recommendations about charities. | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
It should not fall to a select committee of this house to produce | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
reports on the activities of individual charities. For the | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
Government, Kids Company received over 42 million in grants from | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
central Government across several administrations. It has not had to | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
compete for a ground since 2013. Other charities have voiced bitter | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
discontent at the unfairness of this. The Government will need to | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
work hard to restore faith in the grant giving system of Whitehall. | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
Kids Company enjoyed unique privileged and significant access to | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
senior ministers and prime ministers, and leaders of the | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
opposition of three successive administrations. Some witnesses said | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
they were intimidated by the support. Questions have been raised | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
about whether this affected funding decisions. It discouraged people | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
from raising concerns. Government lacked any objective assessment of | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
Kids Company's activities and outcomes and the effectiveness of | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
its governance. Government must improve its capability so it is less | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
reliant upon external reviews when making assessments about charities. | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
The civil service should be commended for resisting the hold | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
that Kids Company had over so many others, but their advice was | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
overridden. Ministers should not allow Charity representatives to | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
exploit their access to Government in a way that might biggest route to | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
be unethical. Ministers should not override or risk creating the | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
perception that they are overriding official advice to hand over funding | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
on the basis of personal prejudice or political considerations. This | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
raises questions about how conflict-of-interest for ministers | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
are addressed in Government with respect to charity funding. The | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
awarding of commercial contracts could never have been conducted on | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
the same basis. The real message of this report is about charity | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
trustees. It is the same message as our report about charity funding | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
last week. We found that trustees are some of the most famous names in | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
the country have failed to understand what was being done in | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
their name. Both these reports highlight the role of trustees of | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
charities, the primary responsibility of trustees is the | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
good governance and maintenance of the reputation of their charities. | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
The primary responsible at the of Kids Company's collapse rests with | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
the trustees, who failed in their duty. I do not doubt the good faith | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
of every trustee who served this charity, I have evidence that some | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
tried so hard to do the right thing. But the only conclusion anyone can | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
reach is they either did not know or understand the implications of what | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
was going on or they knew and failed to act. The Charity commission 's | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
guidance requires trustees to make decisions solely on the Charity's | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
interests, so they should not allow their judgment to be swayed by | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
personal produces or personalities. This appears to be exactly what | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
happened in Kids Company. It must be in danger of happening in every | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
charity where there is a powerful and influential founder who has | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
built up a large charity. The lesson is universal for all trustees. They | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
did not have the knowledge on the trustee body or the experience of | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
psychotherapy or youth services to be able to interrogate the operating | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
model on safeguarding procedures at Kids Company that they should have | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
had. In conclusion, it would be wrong to scapegoat any single | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
individual for what occurred, but there are lessons which the house | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
should draw, the Government should draw, the Charity commission should | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
draw, the advisers should draw, but most important, that the Government | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
needs to understand about what went wrong and how this can be rectified | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
in future. I pay tribute to the honourable member and all members of | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
the committee for this important report, which has shone a light onto | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
what is a sorry for all concerned. Not least for those children who | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
turned to Kids Company in their hour of need. I would like to pay tribute | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
to the thousands of volunteers and workers in the sector who do so much | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
to support young people, usually without the same levels of funding | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
and freedom that Kids Company enjoyed. It is a shame that so much | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
good work is at risk of being tarnished by this unique failure. I | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
want to ask the member, having read the report and the evidence given in | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
the senior civil service, about the way the grants were administered and | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
whether he feels anything has changed since his report. The | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
Government have passed a bill to beef up the Charity commission 's | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
regulation of the sector, especially when it comes to just these. Does he | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
feel the Government have learned their own lessons? It is clear that | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
rules which apply to other charities did not apply to Kids Company. They | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
have not had to compete for a grant for central Government money since | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
2013. The committee was told by a former Conservative minister that | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
Kids Company appear to have a lower threshold of proof to get money from | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
public funds and its Chief Executive is almost the poster girl of the Big | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
Society summit. I ask whether the Government have actually | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
acknowledged their role in this saga and have taken any concrete steps to | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
ensure they never could visit in a charity like this a game? -- they | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
are never complicit in a charity like this game? It is plain to see | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
that there was much good work going on. It has been lost. Many | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
vulnerable young people were dependent upon this charity, and | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
they have been left forlorn and bereft. The employees and | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
volunteers, there were many who were deeply committed to the work of that | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
charity. They feel deeply betrayed what has happened and let down. It | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
has caused distress. I am pleased to inform the house that out of Kids | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
Company, there is already evidence of things being salvaged, things | :11:46. | :11:54. | |
being rebuilt, in the sector. We wish those who are going to fund and | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
support those things every success, because there is a gap that this | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
charity was seeking to fill in the needs of our society. Yes, we are | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
recommending more powers for the Charity commission, even beyond what | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
is put in this bill. We would like the Charity commission to be | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
recommending courses for charity trustees, so that trustees have | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
somewhere to go and learn. The Institute of directors does courses | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
for nonexecutive directors, where is the equivalent for charity trustees? | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
They have just an odorous a set of responsibilities. The executive is | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
not responsible, it is not the chief executive, it is the trustees who | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
are reliable. It is not just the chairman, it is all of them. We | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
would like the commission to have powers to hold hearings that are | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
legally privileged, have a statutory enquiry, so we can hear evidence and | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
receive evidence that cannot be impugned in the courts. So that | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
people can go to the commission without fear of their job, of | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
reprisals, of being traduced in the press if they have concerns about | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
charities, so the commission can hold proper hearings and people can | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
speak like they speak to select committees are with neither fear nor | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
favour. She does raise the question about conflict-of-interest, | :13:27. | :13:38. | |
ministers did not quite understand. If the senior effective of a charity | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
appears on a public platform with somebody who becomes Prime Minister, | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
and is photographed in the Cabinet room with the Prime Minister at the | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
launch of a Government initiative, there is a mutual interest between | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
the two of them that is not being reflected in the way that decisions | :13:58. | :14:07. | |
have been made in this case. If the political or financial interests of | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
the charity become aligned with the political interests of certain | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
ministers, ministers like that should remove themselves from those | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
decisions, as they would in a commercial arrangement. It is a | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
matter... We are into a new arrangement that we are going to | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
require the Government to consider this seriously and possibly amend | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
the code accordingly. The ultimate responsibility for the failure of | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
Kids Company lay with the Board of Trustees. Does he agree that among | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
the many lessons to be learned from this sorry episode, the Board of | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
Trustees should include members with appropriate qualifications for the | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
sort of charity that they are operating? And that the Board of | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
Trustees should be regularly refreshed? With Kids Company, the | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
chairman had been in that role for many years. I would suggest that led | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
him to become far too close to the Chief Executive and to be dominated | :15:12. | :15:13. | |
by her. I am grateful for the question and | :15:14. | :15:24. | |
to all members of the body who were so fully engaged with this enquiry. | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
They made whole report so much more valuable. He is right about the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
appropriate skills that trustee bodies need to have. Very often, | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
people think, they need business skills come whatever they are. Or | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
they need accounting skills, or some kind of technical skills. They need | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
other skills, in the sector with which the charity is operating. | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
There was nobody with psychotherapy experience, this is a | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
psychotherapeutic charity, or with youth sector experience. They also | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
need people who are able to hold the right kind of conversations, who are | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
fearless about hearing what needs to be heard, who are capable of | :16:15. | :16:23. | |
confronting people if necessary, but with kindness and understanding, so | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
that truth gets into the Charity commission -- trustees and the | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
messages are heard. This charity prided itself on being open and | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
consensual, but the evidence is it was precisely the opposite, a lot of | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
people were fearful of people wanting to suppress the truth, | :16:45. | :16:46. | |
because the truth was so difficult to deal with. It was tickled for | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
individuals to deal with. If there is not truth, there will be no | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
enlightenment or judgment. There is no substitute for trustees | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
exercising broad and enlightened common sense and judgment it is not | :17:01. | :17:09. | |
just about sets of skills. We need to hold the answer is a bit shorter. | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
I pay tribute to the chairman of the committee, it was a harrowing | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
experience for all of us, and he handled it so well, in a difficult | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
situation. I ask him to comment a bit further on the role of | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
journalists and media in this enquiry, because is it not a fact | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
that, without the incredibly detailed work done by somebody like | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
the spectator to publish when nobody else was prepared to do it, and that | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
journalist had to go round all of the media who did not want to know, | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
because of some of the issues that my honourable friend has referred | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
to, does he not think that this is even more important now, the role of | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
the media and the role of Freedom of Information? I agree with everything | :18:04. | :18:13. | |
she says. There were journalists who tried to get things published but | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
the editors, the publications who might have carried these messages, | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
they were also scared of confronting what appeared to be a very powerful | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
charity with very great influence to the heart of Government. There is a | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
message there. There is a message for the Charity commission. Why | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
didn't those journalists... Even when things were published, why were | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
they not invited into the question, tell us what you think is going on? | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
I hope journalists will feel a sense of obligation not to necessarily | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
reveal their sources or anything like that, but where they think a | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
big charity is in serious trouble, they should go to the Charity | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
commission and offer their advice. It would be a public spirited thing | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
to do. They would do it for something in respect of a serious | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
risk to national security, they should do it for the security of the | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
charitable sector as well. I agree with my honourable colleague in | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
paying tribute to our chairman, who let this enquiry, and also to the | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
staff of the select committee, who did some valuable work in the course | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
of the enquiry. The last charge of Government money of ?3 million was | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
given a sickly to facilitate restructuring, but there was a | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
programme that Ed on BBC One last night which I was surprised to see, | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
because I was given the impression by that programme that the | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
management and Chief Executive had other ideas as to how that money was | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
going to be spent. I wonder if I could ask if we know whether the 2 | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
million balance of the spent ?3 million that was given has been | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
recovered by Government at all, and whether there are going to be any | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
further investigations into this money passing to Kids Company, | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
virtually 24 hours before it shut down, or whether the report is the | :20:15. | :20:15. | |
end of the matter? That's I think that last question is | :20:16. | :20:26. | |
a very interesting one. There is an investigation going on, conducted by | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
the official receiver. The receiver should be able to tell us what | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
happened to that money and if any money is due to be returned to the | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
Government. I'm afraid I'm not a legal expert but I think once the | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
Government handed over the money, it belonged to the charity, it no | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
belong -- it no longer belonged to the Government, and whilst the | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
Government may be a creditor, I think it would have before make you | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
behind others and the Government might have do except that the | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
employees who lost their implement very abruptly are entitled to some | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
form of recompense, perhaps out of those funds. The answer is, I don't | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
know. What was evident from that programme last night was how the | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
restructuring was being resisted to the very end and I'm not sure if | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
that was acknowledged by the minister who signed the letter of | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
direction. I would also like to pay tribute to the staff of the | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
committee. They don't usually like their name up in lights and it is | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
not the tradition of the House but we are very fortunate in our | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
committee. We have very good staff. Having watched the BBC documentary | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
last night and seen the founder of Kids Company love about breaking the | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
law and be dismissive of the money that has handed out so freely by | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
successive governments, it is clear that lessons must be learned. Brash, | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
flamboyant characters who are favoured by six -- by senior | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
politicians must not be associated with those who work with charities | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
with the best of intentions. This report should only be an opening | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
salvo and must be followed up. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
and this is an opening cellphone. This is a question of governance. | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
The question of governance extends beyond charities. It questions how | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
the whole of charities are governed. This is about looking at those who | :22:43. | :23:00. | |
are accountable for what occurs. I commend him and his committee for | :23:01. | :23:22. | |
his report and for his statement to the house today. In pages 47 to 49 | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
of the excellent report, he is excoriating in his criticism of the | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
two Government ministers who signed off the ministerial direction in | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
June 2015 to give Kids Company ?3 million against the advice of the | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
permanent secretary of the Cabinet Office. One of those ministers the | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, was good to give evidence | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
and has shown courtesy to the house by being here today. The other, the | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
Paymaster General, does not appear to have given evidence to his | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
committee and is not in the house today. In his report, the chairman | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
rights, in neither his letter of direction nor his oral evidence has | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
missed the lead when provided convincing justification for his and | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
Mr Hancock's decision to ignore the advice of senior officials will This | :24:17. | :24:26. | |
grant should not have been authorised contrary to advice. Can | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
we expect a ministerial apology from both ministers involved and a clear | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
explanation of how the ?2 million that is still missing will be found? | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
I have heard everything that my honourable friend has said and the | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
report speaks for itself. I hope very much that the Government will | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
give a full and clear explanation in response to this report. I have | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
never doubted the integrity of the two ministers that signed that | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
letter of direction. I think we must wait for the Government 's response | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
and in the end, I am not responsible for that response. Can I add the | :25:13. | :25:20. | |
name of Harriet Sergeant who exposed this fraud. This was British | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
journalism at its very best and the report is the select committee at | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
its very best, exposing the waist, the extravagance and delusions of | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
this sad episode which has robbed far better charities of vital funds | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
to help children in distress. Coming from this, isn't it vital that the | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
ministers involved in ignoring this letter of direction are their | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
conduct in a considered way with regards to the Minister for conduct | :25:53. | :26:03. | |
and it is crucial that the buck stops at the Prime Minister for this | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
terrible waste. We should have broken the two blue, I believe, | :26:09. | :26:17. | |
because this charity was linked in every way with the big societies | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
stunt that was being run by the Prime Minister at the time, so the | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
Prime Minister should have given evidence to us. This matter will not | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
be set to rest until the Prime Minister explains why he set up what | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
was virtually a slush fund for getting funds moved into the Cabinet | :26:35. | :26:43. | |
Office in a way that was wrong, damaging to many of the children who | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
were helped by Kids Company, but very, very damaging to those | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
charities who could prove the worth of their actions. Kids Company never | :26:55. | :27:03. | |
did that, never giving statements, never giving evidence, and should we | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
look forward to this never happening again and money is being moved out | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
of the Cabinet Office control as to much it is in the nature of politics | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
that some people will always be ready to try to pin the blame and | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
try to extract some action as a result of pinning the blame. I hope | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
I am conducting this committee in a way that all the members of the | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
committee support, which is that we get so much more from our witnesses | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
and I think our reports have more authority if we are not trying to | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
pin individual blame. The house will have heard what he has said. I think | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
he also touched on a very important issue. Why youth funding was moved | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
from the Department for Education to the Cabinet Office. We did not get | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
an explanation for that, except a denial that it had anything to do | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
with wanting to be able to continue funding Kids Company when the | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
Department for Education had clearly become there are reluctant to | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
continue doing so. -- very reluctant to continue doing so. One of our | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
conclusions is that departments should be responsible for allocating | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
funding to outside bodies, not the Cabinet Office, because the Cabinet | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
Office is just too close to the centre of political power and that | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
creates an impression that decisions are being influenced. The libel | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
fund, for example, is clearly a very worthwhile initiative, but any | :28:45. | :28:55. | |
suggestion that it is a fund under the control of the Chancellor of the | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
Exchequer should be checked. Somewhat tighter answers would be | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
appreciated. These are way too long. Can I thank my honourable friend and | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
the committee for the work they have done. Do they intend to review the | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
extent to which the rag inundation is -- the recommendations they have | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
made in this report will be complied with in the future? We always make | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
sure that our recommendations are followed up and the Government has | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
to give a very clear response to them. Mr Speaker, I commend the | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
honourable gentleman and the committee for this report and I | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
think the focus of governance is vital. For our part, the Public | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
Accounts Committee is clear that the taxpayers money must be followed | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
wherever it goes. In the evidence that we had, there was clearly a | :29:52. | :30:01. | |
reluctance for a call for ministerial direction because of the | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
relationship of the Secretary of State. Has he thought any more about | :30:06. | :30:15. | |
ministerial direction? There has been consequence of the role of | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
ministerial direction. The former Cabinet member responsible for that | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
urged people to ask the ministerial direction in order to facilitate | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
directors being made and it was understandable, as he felt some | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
decisions were being blocked. On the other hand, I think senior civil | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
servants pride themselves on a good relationship of trust with their | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
ministers and are therefore reluctant to reach for the | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
requirement of full direction. They would rather have a relationship | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
with their directors which is based upon a proper shared understanding | :30:53. | :31:01. | |
of what the issues of the situation are. I side with the civil servants | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
on that, I think. It would be impossible for civil servants to | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
give their advice to ministers if it went too far the other way. Can I | :31:15. | :31:25. | |
apologise to the House for only just arriving here. I have been speaking | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
to the group of schoolchildren from my constituency and I could not make | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
that -- miss that. I would like to thank the chair for getting a good | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
job done on this report. I caught the tail end of what my honourable | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
friend was saying and I would sympathise with a lot of what he was | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
saying and my honourable friend, the chair of the Public Accounts | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
Committee, I agree that the NA oh should have a look at this when | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
funding is being given in this way and I hope this kind of thing will | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
not ever happen again and that this report will go some way to mending | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
fences for the future. That being said, I think this is possibly the | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
tip of an iceberg. I think this story will continue and there is | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
probably a lot more we have not reported on. I wanted to say my few | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
words. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm sure the House will agree that the | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
chamber's loss was the schoolchildren's game. Thank you, Mr | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
Speaker. I am grateful for his support on the work of the committee | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
I will pick up that he says this must never happen again. I can say | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
for sure that it will happen again. The question is, do we have a system | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
in place that can learn each time it happens and rectify and prepare for | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
the future, ensuring it happens less and less often. That is what our | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
recommendations are about. Can I congratulate the honourable member | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
and his committee but bringing this forward. What role should the Care | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
Quality Commission have played in inspecting some of the services that | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
Kids Company claimed to have been providing? There seemed to be a gap | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
that they could have shown that the numbers did not add up. Can I | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
congratulate them and of Southwark Council who stepped up to ensure | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
that vulnerable young people received help quickly after Kids | :33:41. | :33:51. | |
Company collapsed. There is still some discussion to be had about what | :33:52. | :34:01. | |
gaps in provision really do exist and I am grateful to that gentleman. | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
On the question he raises about inspection, this is an important | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
matter. Ofsted did go into parts of Kids Company. I don't think the | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
executives of the charity found that very welcome. If social services are | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
going to be inspected, maybe there is a case for inspecting charities | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
of this nature, particularly if they are in receipt of public funds and | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
they have safeguarding responsibilities. Charity should be | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
treated in the same way as social services and boarding schools. | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
Notwithstanding what I said earlier about the slow progress, the | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
honourable gentleman has received and he warmly deserves the | :34:50. | :34:51. | |
appreciation of the hassle bringing on behalf of committee this Berry | :34:52. | :34:59. | |
important report for us. It is a practical expression of the | :35:00. | :35:01. | |
honourable gentleman's decades long commitment to this House, its | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
centrality to the Government. We now come to the backbench motion | :35:08. | :35:17. | |
on Parliamentary Southern tree and EU renegotiations. -- sovereignty. | :35:18. | :35:25. | |
To move the motion, I call Mr John Baron. Mr Speaker, you have been | :35:26. | :35:33. | |
very generous. I beg to move the motion in my name and other members, | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
and I thank the back edge business committee for granting the debate | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
and those on both sides of the House who have supported the application | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
-- I thank the backbench business committee. There is adding more | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
important to defend down the country's sovereignty, it goes to | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
the heart of everything we do. Without it, we cannot truly have the | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
final say on a host of issues, including the primacy of our laws, | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
the integrity of our borders or the extent of burdensome regulation. As | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
the re-negations proceed, it appears that little effort is being made to | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
truly restore Parliamentary sovereignty -- renegotiations. It is | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
not a priority and I think this is a great opportunity missed. We have a | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
golden opportunity to pitch for fundamental change in our | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
relationship with the EU as the prime Minster promised in his | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
speech. For the benefit of both. -- Prime Minister. Number ten is | :36:37. | :36:45. | |
tinkering at the edges, without consulting his Parliamentary party, | :36:46. | :36:47. | |
the Prime Minister is sidestepping the issue by arguing for temporary | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
measures, measures which require us to club together with other | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
parliaments in the vain hope of stopping the EU. This is not | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
restoring Parliamentary sovereignty. If we as a parliament and country on | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
our own cannot stop any unwanted EU taxes or directives or laws, it is | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
clear that if we vote to stay we vote to stay on the conveyor belt | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
towards ever closer union is laid out in the founding Treaty of the | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
EU. Parliament will become nothing more than just a chamber of Europe. | :37:23. | :37:31. | |
Council chamber. To those who said that the UK already accept is a | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
certain pooling or loss of sovereignty when joining other | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
international organisations, I say only the EU can force us to take | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
economic migrants despite the strain on our infrastructure and can | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
override our laws, and voiced burdensome regulation on our | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
companies, despite the vast majority are not even trading with the EU. -- | :37:54. | :38:01. | |
forest. By all means. I would like to congratulate you on raising this | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
very important issue. The great 19th-century constitutionalists | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
divided politics into the effective part of the Constitution and the | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
decorative parts, and this place must be the effective part and not | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
just the decoration will stop I completely agree. That is why the | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
issue of sovereignty goes to the very core of our relationship with | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
the EU and if we don't take this opportunity to address it now, it | :38:31. | :38:38. | |
could be lost for a generation. I wonder if all those years ago, in | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
power was right, and we have been dodging this issue ever since -- | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
Enoch Powell. The question posed by him was this, if you join the EU, | :38:48. | :38:55. | |
this chamber and this House loses its sovereignty, and now an historic | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
moment is approaching and the British people have to make that | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
choice, will they be claimed that sovereignty or not? -- reclaim. I | :39:02. | :39:10. | |
can only repeat what I said to my colleague on the opposite benches, I | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
completely agree, and I do regret that there has been a lack of | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
consultation with regards to the proposals in this renegotiation and | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
betting games went with the Parliamentary party, perhaps with | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
Parliament generally, given we are representatives of would have been | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
very useful indeed -- and with the Parliamentary party. And the failure | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
to consult with the national governments of Wales, Scotland and | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
Northern Ireland? I regret wide consultation generally with regards | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
the renegotiation, when many of us were campaigning at the last | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
parliament for a referendum in this, it was in the hope that we would | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
have a meaningful debate prior to the renegotiation and then a | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
meaningful debate afterwards, as we headed to a referendum. I'm just | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
going to make a bit more progress and then I will take further | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
interventions. Unconscious of time, as well. And now to the so-called | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
red card, we appear to have a system which has more holes in it than a | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
Swiss cheese. It is more like a lottery ticket that has been through | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
the wash, the question is, is it valid? The idea is that we clubbed | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
together and form a majority with other national parliaments to stop | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
unwanted EU taxes and laws but this would not enable our Parliament to | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
reject anything it did not want. This would be an extension of the | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
ineffectual yellow card system currently in operation, but with an | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
even higher threshold. We should be clear, as the Lord Haig once put it | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
in this chamber when referring to the system that was in operation | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
then, very similar to what is being proposed now, he said, given the | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
difficulty of opposition winning a vote in their Parliament, the odds | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
against doing so in 14 countries around Europe with different | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
Parliamentary recesses lasting up to ten weeks on our own case such that | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
even if the European Commission proposed the slaughter of the first | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
four it would be difficult to achieve such remarkable conjunction | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
of Parliamentary voices in such a short period of time. The lottery | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
ticket system will not work, it will be like a football referee getting | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
out his fraction of a red card, to have two then consult with 14 other | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
officials before deciding what to do. By which time the game is over. | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
If we are really serious about regaining control of our borders and | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
fisheries, the ability to set our own trade deals and the power to set | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
our own business regulation, then Southern Chi -- sovereignty must be | :41:58. | :42:06. | |
restored. Everything else is a sell-out or a fraud. We should be | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
clear that the washed out lottery ticket. Sorry to stop you in the | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
midst of that wonderful metaphor, but can I put it to him that one of | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
the real problems with the mentality of those who subscribe to the EU | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
project is that instead of being honest enough to say that -- to say | :42:29. | :42:41. | |
no to people who would like to stay at, they say things which fudge the | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
issue. I agree, but the Minister on the front bench is nothing but a | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
purchase and very able minister and I'm delighted he is in his place. I | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
would not want him to be under the illusion is that we are suggesting | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
this is of him, but there is a tendency of acting out this Sherrard | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
when actually we have been on the conveyor belt of ever closer union | :43:08. | :43:20. | |
-- charade. By all means. In this document, which was published this | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
week, the draft decision, there is a section called sovereignty but if | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
there was ever a misnamed section of a document, it is this. The one | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
thing this does not return to the United Kingdom Parliament is | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
sovereignty over the laws which are made for this country, and it | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
promises a red card which is no more than another extremely cumbersome | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
method of qualified majority voting in the European Union. I cannot but | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
agree with by right honourable friend. Anyone want to disagree? | :43:55. | :44:03. | |
There will be people, don't worry. Can I turn, if I make it to the | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
immigration emergency brake. I speak with sadness, because I think the | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
government has framed this part of the debate in the wrong way. Let's | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
be clear, the emergency brake accessed in work benefits will only | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
last four years and with the EU not Britain judging whether the | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
emergency brake is declared. Not even here do we have control. It is | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
also not clear after what happens after the period expires, benefits | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
will be increased, so it is moot how much of a deterrent the break will | :44:41. | :44:48. | |
be, but my sadness is that I believe the government is wrong to catch the | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
debate in these terms because it feeds into a negative narrative | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
about immigrants. It ignores the fact that almost all of the vast | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
majority of immigrants from the EU, they come to Britain to work hard. | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
They are not looking to benefits. It ignores the fact that large-scale EU | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
immigration cannot be stopped in all truthfulness while we adhere to the | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
founding principle of freedom of movement. Especially because the | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
rise in the living wage will pick that up in speed. I'm fed up of | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
listening to politicians saying that we keep focusing on benefits and | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
playing to the gallery in many respects, because it is wrong to do | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
so. It feeds a negative narrative, the vast majority of immigrants, | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
let's be clear, they come here to work hard. We should acknowledge | :45:43. | :45:50. | |
that fact. Let's have clarity about the emergency brake, which after all | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
can only be used by the EU back-seat driver. As we all know, we know how | :45:54. | :46:03. | |
dangerous that can be. Mr Speaker, let's address these banks and make | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
clear that the government's renegotiation has massive holes in | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
these key planks -- address these planks. But some people this will | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
not be important, but I say it is important. Because while the general | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
view might be that we are standing still while inside the EU, we are in | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
fact standing still on the conveyor belt towards ever closer union. | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
Let's be clear about that. The lessons of the Eurozone crisis is | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
that the EU usually finds a way of achieving what it wants, ever closer | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
union, even at the expense of violating its commitments. As | :46:43. | :46:51. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker said, when it becomes serious, you have two lie. | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
These are the words of the president. The president of the | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
European Commission. The EU is developing all the trappings of a | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
nation state, a currency, a body of law, a diplomatic service, and it | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
makes no secret of its ambitions or its determination to succeed even if | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
this results in the Democratic deficit with its own people. You | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
only have two here what has been said by some of the key people | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
within the EU. Jean-Claude Juncker has made his position very clear, | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
"If it is a yes, we say, on we go, and if it is a no, we say, we will | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
continue". Angela Merkel has made clear her wishes. " We want more | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
Europe and stronger powers to intervene". Martin Schultz, the | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
president of the European Parliament has been a very blunt, "The UK | :47:55. | :48:04. | |
belongs to the EU". The former president of the commission has cast | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
light on to the EU's integration process. "They Must go on voting | :48:08. | :48:16. | |
until they get it right" for stop if things do not change, the UK is | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
going to be captive on a journey to who knows where. Looking into voting | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
at the EU Council of ministers, academics based at the London School | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
of economics, and there has been little research about this, so this | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
is interesting, but these academics had shown that in recent years | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
Britain has voted against the majority, far more often, and being | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
on the losing side more than any other member state. It is not as if | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
it is getting better within the internal structures of the EU. The | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
British people never signed up to this, it is therefore right that | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
they are their final say. In the referendum. Does the British | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
government truly believe it can muster sufficient votes to stop this | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
inexorable vote towards ever closer union? That is one of the key | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
questions in such a try and answer today. Very briefly, yes. -- should | :49:13. | :49:21. | |
try. He mentioned many well-known people in the European Union, isn't | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
one of the things that binds them altogether in relation to this | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
debate, they are not elected, and in this parliament we had no say in who | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
these people are and that we can't get rid of them, and as Tony Benn | :49:37. | :49:45. | |
said, if you can't get rid of the people that are in an institution, | :49:46. | :49:47. | |
that it is not democratic. I very much agree with the | :49:48. | :49:58. | |
honourable lady. I think there is a democratic deficit within the EU. I | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
think it is no coincidence that the European Parliament now, after the | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
last elections, is probably the most Eurosceptic parliament in the EU's | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
history. I think the EU needs to recognise that they need to put this | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
democratic deficit absolutely right. Would my honourable friend agree | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
that even the elected people such as Daniel... You can't get rid of him | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
because he is number one of ten or 11 in the Houses of Parliament? I | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
think there are many flaws with the system and I think that the peoples | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
of Europe, I'm not going to generalise too much in this respect, | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
I think they are asking more and more questions, particularly as the | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
system, the EU, is failing to deliver, particularly on the | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
economic front. Mass unemployment, for example, is causing great | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
hardship in many countries. The EU is failing to deliver. I think I've | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
allowed the gentleman to intervene once already. No? In that case I | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
give way. Would he accept that this is not just an academic debate about | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
sovereignty but this is a nation that goes -- an issue that goes to | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
the very core of social cohesion. If people feel they cannot change those | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
who make decisions then we have all kinds of trouble and tensions on our | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
streets, and that is the core of this issue. Democratic institutions | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
are important for the well-being of society. I agree, very well put. It | :51:32. | :51:40. | |
is terribly important there is an element of democratic | :51:41. | :51:42. | |
accountability, because if not you will alienate sections of society | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
and you will have issues such as unemployment not being properly | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
addressed. How are those people going to voice their opinions | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
without moving to the extremes of the political divide and feed that | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
extremism come because they don't feel they can be democratically | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
represented within the existing structures? One more time. With my | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
honourable friend agree there is a practical sides of the issues of | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
sovereignty as well, because as member of the EU, we have lost our | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
sovereign ability to negotiate friendly or free trade agreements | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
with the major economies around the world. It would be in this country's | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
interest to have friendly trading agreements with the big economies | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
like America, China, Japan, but we can't do that because we have lost | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
our seat at the World Trade Organisation and our membership of | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
the EU forbids us from making such negotiations. I think that's | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
absolutely right and it is a question of sovereignty at the end | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
of the day. If we can't take our seat at the World Trade Organisation | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
and negotiate our deals... I'm conscious time is ticking on so I | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
will make some progress if colleagues will forgive me. Please. | :52:54. | :53:01. | |
In my view, the Prime Minister misses the importance of | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
parliamentary sovereignty in the EU debate. I think this is a debate | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
that -- a mistake that number ten is in danger of making, because I | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
suggest it is focusing too heavily on project via issues such as | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
immigration and jobs, but we all know it is the loss of parliamentary | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
sovereignty which lies at the heart of our uneasy relationship with the | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
EU and which has rankled since we first joined in the 1970s. Over the | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
course of the referendum campaign I do not believe project fear will | :53:32. | :53:38. | |
bite. Many businesses make clear they will not pull out in the event | :53:39. | :53:48. | |
of a Brexit. Indeed one report suggested that a Brexit would be | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
beneficial to the UK. Given the vast trade deficit is in the EU's favour, | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
they would want to sign an agreement at the end of a Brexit. Even if the | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
Brexit wanted to get awkward, they couldn't. Falling global tariffs | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
since the 1970s mean that both the UK and the EU are bound by those | :54:10. | :54:18. | |
tariffs, the USA's being under 3%. Many countries, smaller countries | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
outside the EU that easily trade with it, does the in camp really | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
believe that we would not be able to do likewise? What does excite | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
voters's imagination is the ability to restore sovereignty to our | :54:35. | :54:42. | |
Parliament. I rather suspect the Prime Minister knows this and he | :54:43. | :54:44. | |
consequently is holding something in reserve when it comes to the | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
sovereignty issue. We are hearing something about a sovereignty bill. | :54:49. | :54:55. | |
Details ask and but if true, does it not acknowledge that the washed out | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
lottery ticket and the EU back-seat driver are not fit for purpose? Will | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
the Minister supply the house today with more details? In conclusion, Mr | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
Speaker, there has never been a better time to renegotiate our | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
relationship with the EU. Nor are we ever more likely to be in a stronger | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
position to win meaningful concessions. So I urge the Prime | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
Minister at this critical stage to return to the negotiations that week | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
nothing less than a true getting back of parliamentary sovereignty. | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
If the EU did not exist today, would we really invent it? What I cannot | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
understand is why this and other governments have acquiesced in this | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
Gerard Tubb. I can only surmise because it is easier not to correct | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
it and to do nothing than to put it right and put in action. In action | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
is costing this country dear, not just tenderly pounds by way of a net | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
contribution a year, but by way of our sovereignty and responsibility | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
to the people of this country. Order. The question is as on the | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
order paper. On account of the number of honourable members who | :56:12. | :56:13. | |
wish to contribute to this debate, I'm afraid it will be necessary for | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
me to start with a six minute limit on backbench speeches. Mr Hopkins. | :56:18. | :56:29. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
speak in this debate. It is a very important debate and I congratulate | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
the last honourable member for his excellent speech. I want to address | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
some of my colleagues on this side of the house who remain in favour of | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
staying in the EU, because I think they are mistaken. I want to make a | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
few points in that regard. The honourable member talked about no, | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
but we have a number of opt outs which have saved as some of the pain | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
of being a member of the European Union and I think those are very | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
good, particularly those on the euro. And we been a member of the | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
euro, we would have been destroyed by the crisis in 2008. He protected | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
our economy to an extent from that terrible experience. Other countries | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
in southern Europe had much greater difficulties and they are still | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
suffering now. Currency frights ability -- currency flexibility, so | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
that countries can adapt to appropriate parities with other | :57:35. | :57:36. | |
countries is absolutely fundamental to having a successful world economy | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
let alone a national or European economy. The question of the single | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
currency, does he not agree with me that one of the more ridiculous | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
parts of this document published yesterday as the idea that we need | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
to have permission from the European Union in order for them to recognise | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
that we have more than one currency in the European Union? Given that | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
Sweden voted in a referendum to stay out of the euro successfully and at | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
the time they didn't even have an opt out as negotiated in the | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
Maastricht Treaty for the United Kingdom, isn't it clear that if you | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
have got your own currency they can't take it away and we don't need | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
a treaty change or anything to tell us... Absolutely. I've had the | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
pleasure of being a member of the European scrutiny committee for many | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
years now and that represents comments from other parliaments and | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
Swedish parliament representatives tell me that the support for joining | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
the euro is now at 11% in Sweden so I suspect they will not be joining | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
any time soon. We have also heard from Czechs and as soon as you | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
suggest that they might be joining the euro, they say basically never | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
is that feeling. One or two other countries joined the euro and maybe | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
think it's not such a good idea now and they might like to withdraw if | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
they could. But the fact that we are saying that there are many several | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
currencies in the European Union is absolutely the truth, there are | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
several countries which retain their own currency. Some years ago I met | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
some Polish representatives and I said whatever you do, don't join the | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
euro. If you want to run your economy successfully, it will not be | :59:20. | :59:26. | |
good for Poland. Not that my advice mattered, but nevertheless they have | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
not joined the euro. I see no prospect of them doing that in the | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
near future. I wanted to talk about other opt outs. One of the issues | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
I've campaigned about in this house for some time is about the Common | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
fisheries policy which I think is absolutely bizarre and a complete | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
nonsense, to have thousands if not millions of tonnes of fish just | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
destroyed by dumping them back in the sea went dead, and of course | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
fish stocks being savagely cut. The only way forward is for countries to | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
be responsible for their own fish stocks so that they will then | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
husband their own resources and fish in their own seas and manage all the | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
fishing that takes place in their own seas, like the Norwegians do, | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
which is much better. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The member makes a very | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
important point. Does he agree with me that it's a real pity that the | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Government has missed the opportunity of treaty change around | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
the common fisheries policy, which has been an absolute disaster for | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
the Scottish fishing community? Indeed. I thank him for his | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
intervention. I was going to go on that I have raised this with a | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
former representative who came to speak to us at the European scrutiny | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
committee a couple of years ago and I said if we gave notice, I | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
suggested this to the previous Coalition Government, I said if we | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
gave notice that in say five years' time we wanted to withdraw from the | :00:51. | :00:59. | |
common fisheries policy and keep the 250 mile limit and start to manage | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
fish stocks properly, basically for our own fishing industry, with every | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
boat and every catch on its own, as happens in Norway, if we gave notice | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
we wanted to withdraw from the common filler -- common fisheries | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
policy, what would happen? He said he would be expelled from the | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
European Union straightaway. If the Government put this into their | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
negotiations there might be a bit more persuasive, I think. I've got a | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
list of things that I would want in my negotiations, not being followed | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
by the Government, but the common fisheries policy getting rid of is | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
one of them. We have the most successful fishing industry in the | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
whole of the European Union and it has been devastated by overfishing | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
and since then the appalling throwing away by catches. That is | :01:49. | :01:57. | |
just to make a point that getting real change, we would be thrown out, | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
apparently. So the substantial changes that I want to see would not | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
be acceptable. Yesterday people were talking about the common | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
agricultural policy, another nonsensical policy that has cost us | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
dear. We make massive net contributions to the European Union | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
simply because of the common agricultural policy. I think every | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
country ought to be able to manage its own agriculture. Some choose to | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
subsidise agriculture like the Norwegians for their own strategic | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
reasons and I think that's perfectly acceptable and we could choose the | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
same. Each country could do their own. One of the nonsenses of the | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
common agricultural policy is that some countries have been paid not to | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
grow food. I was in Lithuania a couple of years ago with the | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
honourable member, the chair of the European scrutiny committee, and he | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
remembered that Lithuania used to be self-sufficient in food. Now there | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
are thousands of acres of Lithuania being laid Fallow because they are | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
being paid not to grow food. I think that's nonsense and it's all to do | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
with the common agricultural policy. He is making a very important point | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
because in Northern Ireland one of the issues is, if we were to leave | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
the EU, what would happen to farming subsidies? Farming subsidies are | :03:19. | :03:27. | |
better tailored to the individual needs of individual countries rather | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
than a common policy, which very often fails to meet the needs of | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
farmers in our country. He's absolutely right and I agree with | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
him. Of course, by withdrawing we could keep all the subsidies as they | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
are and still benefit by the net loss of some say 19 billion and some | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
say 14 billion, but it is in the many billions. We could eliminate | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
the net loss and still subsidise regional policy and all sorts of | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
other policies as well. What we do then is tailored to our own national | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
and regional needs and the nations of the United Kingdom as well. One | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
thing I wanted to come onto was the so-called sham of social Europe, | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
which I believe is a complete sham. It is used as a lever to persuade | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
social Democratic and socialist parties to say yes to the European | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
Union but when it comes to the crunch, this will not necessarily | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
impress members on the other side but this site is I hope, they always | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
find in favour of employers. Free movement is about bidding down wages | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
and making sure that wages are kept down and profits archetype. It's | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
part of the neoliberal package of measures that is being driven by the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
European Union. When it comes to a crunch like Greece and some of the | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
other European countries which have had bailouts, one of the conditions | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
of bailouts is to have a break on collected by the. They say you've | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
got to cut down your employees especially in the public sector | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
because they want to cut down on relative bargaining. That's hardly | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
social Europe. What about the rights involved in the Charter of | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
fundamental rights? And of course then we have the conditions of | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
bailouts, forced privatisations. Via sales of public assets in these | :05:25. | :05:25. | |
countries. The biggest problem has been mass | :05:26. | :05:38. | |
output and falling living standards, output and falling living standards, | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
Greece is the most extreme example, but other countries have suffered. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Greece has a living standards cut by 25% and unemployment at 25% and 50% | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
across showing people in southern Europe. It is a nonsense, it is not | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
work economically and the idea that it is beneficial to workers is | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
nonsense and not true. Of course. Would he agree that predominantly | :06:09. | :06:21. | |
because of what you are saying... The time is up. Very courteous, much | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
more than I needed, but do you want to finish blurting out what you | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
wanted to say? Isn't this way the trade union movement and trade | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
unionism across the country are catching on to this and speaking out | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
and beginning to join and get involved in the campaign to leave? | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
Excellent. A one word sentence, magnificent. Thank you. Sir William | :06:49. | :06:58. | |
Cash. I congratulate my honourable friend for introducing this debate. | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
I have to say this has been a very long journey. 30 years in all. I | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
don't want to speak about the technicalities and the negotiation, | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
we will deal with that when the Foreign Secretary appears in front | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
of the European scrutiny committee on the 10th of February. I would | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
much rather say a few words, and I said a few words yesterday in reply | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
to the Prime Minister, and what I want to do is simply to indicate | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
what it is that I really feel about this question, why I am so utterly | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
and completely determined to maintain the sovereignty of this | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
United Kingdom Parliament. It is very simple, Mr Speaker. You see, we | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
are elected, by the voters in our constituencies, and we come here and | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
have done for many centuries to represent their grievances and their | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
interests, to fight for their prosperity, to support them in | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
adversity. The reason why this House has to remain sovereign, is because | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
it simply can't be subordinated to the decisions that are taken by | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
other people, this is about this country and this is about our | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
electors, this is what people fought and died for. If I may say, when my | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
right honourable friend the Prime Minister, as I mentioned yesterday, | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
in his speech, referred to the National Parliament as being the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
root of our democracy, I would also mentioned that in our history this | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
Parliament has been steeped in the blood, it has been nourished by | :08:58. | :09:10. | |
Civil War. When you're great predecessor -- you're great | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
predecessor refused to accept an armed aggression by the monarchy, in | :09:16. | :09:24. | |
defiance of prospective tyranny, this was about sovereignty, this was | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
about defending the rights of the people from unnecessary and | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
oppressive taxation which was being imposed upon them without | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
Parliamentary authority. And then through subsequent centuries, the | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
repeal of the corn laws, obtaining parliamentary reform, in the 1867 | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
act to make sure that the working man should be in title to take part | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
in this democracy. And then after that, through to the 1930s, when we | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
had to take account of the mood of appeasement. I say this with respect | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
to the Prime Minister and to the Minister, I'd take the view that in | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
completely different circumstances what has happened in these | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
negotiations in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty, when the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
die is cast, when we have an opportunity for the first time since | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
1975 to make a decision on behalf of the British people, having regard to | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
the massive failures of the European Union, to the dysfunctionality | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
whether that is in the economics field or immigration, in relation to | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
the question of defence, a range of matters which are absolutely | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
essential to our sovereignty, they have all within the framework of the | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
European Union been made subject to the criticism that it is better, | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
they argue, that we would be more secure if we stayed in the European | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
Union, we would preserve the sovereignty of these people, we | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
would preserve the sovereignty of our electors who elect us to make | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
these decisions and make the laws which govern them. That we would be | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
more secure by being in a completely dysfunctional, insecure and stable | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
Europe. Of course we wouldn't. The issues before us are actually to do | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
with the sovereignty, because if we lose this sovereignty we betray the | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
people, that is the point I make. There are certain obliges use to | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
cooperation and trade and all these things, and I agree with it, always, | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
but I will not argue for this chamber, this Parliament, the right | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
of these people, who wrote for us, to be sold -- who vote for us, to be | :11:49. | :11:58. | |
subordinated, to put us into the second part of a 2-tier Europe, | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
which would be governed by the dominant country in the Eurozone | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
which is Germany. I will give way. Thanks. Would he agree that one of | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
the most worrying sentences in the document published this week is | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
about what will occur if the Eurozone six to deepen the | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
integration, and it says member states shall not impede the | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
implementation of legal axe directly linked to the functioning of the | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
euro -- six to deepen the integration. Given that there is | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
going to be a new treaty, we do not know how it will affect us, is Ms | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
effectively giving up our veto? -- isn't that. We were promised that in | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
1972, it was a voluntary decision based on certain assumptions, and in | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
the 1971 White Paper which actually preceded that debate it said we will | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
never give up the veto and it went on to say that because to do so | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
would be against our vital national interests and would endanger the | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
very fabric of the European Community. They knew which way it | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
could go, they knew they had to keep the veto and it has been taken away | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
from us, progressively, by successive governments. These | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
negotiations, when you cut through the appearances, it is a sham, that | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
is a problem. This is the real issue. You are so right to raise | :13:34. | :13:46. | |
this above may technicalities. Is not the blood of all those | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
parliamentarians who have died in defence of this House the seedcorn | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
of our liberties? I 100% agree. This is not about technicalities, this is | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
about freedom of choice. Freedom of choice in the ballot box to have | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
your own laws, which you can challenge, Canterbury, not by | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
proportional representation, not by European Parliament -- | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
accountability. To hatch out deals on behalf of the people who are | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
actually being affected by them in their daily lives, this is the | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
problem. We have wordsmiths, people running around in chauffeur driven | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
cars making decisions, unelected bureaucrats, that is the problem, Mr | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
Speaker. We have actually reached a point of no return. We have to say | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
no, we have to leave, that is the position I don't need to say any | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
more as far as I'm concerned, this is about the liberties of this | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
country. It is about the liberties of our people, this is why I say we | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
must leave the European Union and I will finally quote, if I may, GK | :15:06. | :15:15. | |
Chesterton and John Gower. Smile at ask pay us, pass ask but do not | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
quite forget, for we are the people of England, that had never spoken | :15:20. | :15:30. | |
yet -- smiled at us, paid us, pass us. I'm disappointed there are so | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
few of my colleagues here who wish to defend the EU and speak against | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
the sovereignty of this Parliament, but they are not here so I will say | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
a few words. What I want to say that and we are talking that great | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
parliamentarians, I want to quote some of those things which were said | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
by one of the greatest parliamentarians, sadly now dead, | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
Tony Benn, in this house and I think some of those things, following on | :16:00. | :16:09. | |
from the right honourable member, and I agree with everything he said, | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
this is not about technicalities and wordsmiths, this is not about | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
Eurocrats, this is about fundamentally our belief in our | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
country and the belief in our country to run itself. Two things, | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
this was a letter he wrote to his Bristol constituents in December | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
1974, I think you were probably were born, Mr Speaker. " Britain's | :16:35. | :16:43. | |
continuing membership of the community would mean the end of | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
Britain as a self-governing nation and the end of our democratically | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
elected parliament as the supreme lawmaking body in the United | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
Kingdom", and he then made a speech in the Cabinet when they were | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
discussing the Labour view on how they should vote in the leaving | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
referendum in 1975. The party was very split. He says, "We have | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
confused the real issue of Parliamentary democracy for there | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
has been a fundamental change, the power of MPs other ministers has | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
gone and the role of minsters has changed, the real case for entry has | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
never been spelt out which is that there should be a fully federal | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
Europe in which we become a province, it has not been spelt out | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
because people would never accept it, we are at the moment on a | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
federal escalator, moving as we talk, going towards a federal | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
objective we do not wish to reach, in practice, Britain will be | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
governed by a European Coalition Government that we can't change, | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
dedicated to a capitalist or market economy theology. This policy is to | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
be sold to us by projecting an unjustified optimism about the | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
community and an unjustified pest is about the United Kingdom, designed | :18:03. | :18:11. | |
to frighten us -- pessimism. ". He then mentions Jim, I imagine Jim | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
Callaghan. "The Common market will break up the UK, because there will | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
be no valid and men against an independent Scotland with its own | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
ministers and Commissioner -- valid argument. It will impose appalling | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
strains on the Labour movement, and I believe that we want independence | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
and democratic self-government and I hope the Cabinet in due course will | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
think again". In 1975 he gave another speech, "It would be | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
inconceivable for the house to adjourn for Easter without recording | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
the fact that last Friday the merchant shipping act was referred | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
to the European Court, and I want to make it clear to the house that we | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
are, in Britain, unless we repeal section two of the European | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
Community 's act, it is no good talking about being a good European. | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
We are all good Europeans, that is a matter of geography or stop the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
arrangements under which are governed such that we have broken | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
the link between the electorate and the laws under which they are | :19:29. | :19:38. | |
governed close? -- governed? He says when people voted in an action they | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
must be entitled to know that the party for which they voted will be | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
able to enact laws under which they will be governed, but that is no | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
longer true, any party elected, Conservative or Labour, canola say, | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
vote for me, and if I have a majority, I will pass that law -- | :19:56. | :20:05. | |
cannot say. " Very apt, although she is a go. Even more apt today, which | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
is why I believe that this house must be sovereign, the Prime | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
Minister's negotiations have failed to look at that and that is why the | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
people, women get this referendum, will finally have the chance to say | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
no to this undemocratic, anti-democratic and anti democracy | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
as we want to have it in this country -- when we get this | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
referendum. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On this day of all days I commenced | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
by striking, I hope, a note of humility. The truth is I don't know | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
whether the inclusion I have reached is right or wrong. I think the | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
problem that we face in questioning our consciences as to whether or not | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
our country should take this historic step to depart from the | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
European Union is almost too big for a single individual to compute. All | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
of the potential economic consequences, all of the other | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
consequences on our social and other fabric, they are of a complexity | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
with which individuals would rightly feel daunted and even members of | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
Parliament. Not just for now, thank you. So I think the Prime Minister | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
was right, Mr Speaker. Right and completely right when he said to the | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
house this week, do what is in your heart. We can never be sure if we | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
leave the European Union that the economic consequences of doing so | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
will play one way or the other. We can have faith that it will. | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
Speaking for myself, I have that faith. Ultimately we have to ask | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
ourselves what do we believe is right. What is important to ours as | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
members of Parliament and as representatives of our country and | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
our constituents. That is why sitting here late this -- listening | :22:04. | :22:12. | |
to my honourable friend the member for Stone, I think he struck the | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
right note. For a long time I have remained silent on this issue. | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
Trying to wrestle with the rights and wrongs of it and waiting until | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
we have seen the final version of the proposals to be made by the | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
Prime Minister. We now have the draft decision published by the | :22:28. | :22:36. | |
coalition the day before yesterday. I have to say and have read it and I | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
do not believe it is a sham. I believe it is the best the Prime | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
Minister can do within the parameters he set himself. I believe | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
there is much useful stuff there and if it is worked on and the detail is | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
provided and it's sufficiently substantial and drafted well, no | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
doubt it will provide some modest measure of satisfaction and some | :22:56. | :23:04. | |
ring fencing for us in a thoroughly fundamentally unsatisfactory | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
position. But I do not believe that it amounts to a rewriting of the DNA | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
of this organisation, which I believe the country is crying out | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
for. So for that reason, Mr Speaker, I have concluded, and it is the | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
first time I have said though, that I shall be obliged to vote to leave | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
the European Union. I believe it is a question of freedom, as my | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
honourable friend does. The freedom of this country to be true to | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
itself. To follow the policies that this house and its executive | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
believes are the best policy is fitted and suited for the interests | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
of this nation, not dilutive, not of this nation, not dilutive, not | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
representing an accommodation and a constant adjustment to the competing | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
interests of 29 members, but following the path that this nation | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
sets and is right for this nation's interests. For 40 as we have | :24:05. | :24:13. | |
shifted, adjusted and felt uneasy in our skins. And what we have had to | :24:14. | :24:21. | |
compromise with as a consequence of being in the union. I say to our | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
partners in the European Union, this is not an act of hostility. This is | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
a rebirth of our country. In its full independence and in its full | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
freedom, Mr Speaker. So that we can set our commercial policies, so that | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
we can be decisive and clear and give a lead to the international | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
community in foreign policy. So that we can set our own defence policy as | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
best we judged to be in the interests of those whom we | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
represent. So that we can have clear lines of democratic accountability. | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
And so that we can fulfil the spirit and genius of our own nation, and I | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
say to this house and to those who listen outside, let us trust in the | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
genius of our own people. Until 1974, did this country do so badly? | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
Were we not leaders in the development of human rights? Did we | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
not have 400 years of peaceful political evolution? I say this | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
country does not have to be afraid of resuming its own independent | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
self-governance. And we can offer more to the world by that means that | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
we can by being part, a muted voice in a big organisation with these | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
objectives and outcomes we do not feel at ease. And so, Mr Speaker, | :25:51. | :25:58. | |
not attempting to address now the technicalities of this issue, the | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
economic rights and wrongs, let me can cleared on a note of freedom | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
with the words of John Milton himself. " Me thinks I see in my | :26:07. | :26:23. | |
mind a noble and puissant nation rousing herself like a man after | :26:24. | :26:33. | |
sleep and shaking her locks. When he spoke those words, he spoke in | :26:34. | :26:42. | |
defence of freedom and truth. Let us believe in the genius of our | :26:43. | :26:43. | |
country. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I | :26:44. | :26:54. | |
have had to remind myself what motion we're debating today because | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
it does strike me that with the possible exception of the last | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
Speaker... I'm not convinced that anyone other than the last Speaker | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
would have said anything different. I would never have thought that | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
almost exactly nine months since becoming a new member of Parliament | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
I would be in a position of giving a lesson in English Parliamentary | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
history to one of the most esteemed and experienced parliamentarians to | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
grace this chamber. But this lament did not witness the Civil War. This | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
Parliament did not exist at the time of the English Civil War. One of its | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
predecessors did. But at best this Parliament has existed since 1707. | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
Some would argue that the Parliament of the United Kingdom in Northern | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
Ireland is less than 100 years old. I say that not to knock the pride of | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
those who justifiably believe that the previous Parliament of England | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
delivered a lot and was a trendsetter for democracy in many | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
parts of the world, but if you have a strong and to play you damage it | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
by overplaying it. I fear that some of us are overplaying the | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
significance of the history of previous parliaments that have met | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
not in this exact building but in those close. I will happily give | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
way. I will simply say that when Scotland joined us in the union that | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
was in order to combine our fight for freedom as indeed the Scots | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
fought with us right the way through all the great battles including not | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
only Waterloo but also through the Somme and right the way through the | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
Second World War. It's that freedom we fought for together. You're | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
absolutely correct, Mr Speaker. The polls and the French and the | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
Hungarians fought alongside us as well, but what actually happened in | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
1706 was that the two parliaments were combined. It was not a takeover | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
of one Parliament by another. I entirely respect the clear pride and | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
positive English nationalism that we're seeing from some of the | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
speakers opposite. That is a positive thing as long as | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
nationalism is based upon love for and pride in one's country, it is | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
something to be welcomed. We are not the people of England. We are the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
people of Scotland. We are the sovereign people of Scotland and | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
sovereignty over our nation is and always will be bested. For Scotland, | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
sovereignty does not reside in this place. It does not reside in those | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
of us being sent to serve in this place. It resides in those who have | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
sent us to serve in this place. I genuinely interested in this concept | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
that being the assiduous in Parliament is ultimately sovereign | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
even though the people. Perhaps somebody who speaks later on could | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
explain, who decided that Parliament was sovereign and who gave them the | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
right to decide that Parliament was sovereign? I suspect that people | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
agreed the Parliament was sovereign and therefore the people have the | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
right to change that decision. I will happily give way. Would he | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
access that this debate is not about purely the sovereignty of this | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
place, it's the sovereignty of the people who elect people to this | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
place. Therefore if we become pawns, the sovereignty that he is talking | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
about, the sovereignty of people of Scotland, Northern Ireland, England | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
and Wales has been diminished? I take on board the honourable | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
member's comments but the motion does not mention the sovereignty of | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
the people. The motion is about the importance of parliamentary | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
sovereignty. The two are not the same thing. The two are most | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
definitely not the same thing. If Parliament is sovereign, does | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
Parliament have the legal constitution to pass any legislation | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
however morally repugnant it may be? And the people's only recluse is to | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
wait five years and wait for a different -- vote for a different | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
Parliament. That is not a version of parliamentary sovereignty that I | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
recognise. It is not a parliamentary sovereignty version that the people | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
of Scotland except. I need to make some progress, the honourable member | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
has had a lot of interventions early on this afternoon. I want to look at | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
the second part of the motion. I think this goes to the nub of the EU | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
membership debate. We've heard again the phrase ever closer union being | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
repeated as if it is some kind of threat, as if it is a threat that | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
we're going to be swallowed up by some big two headed monster probably | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
in Germany but possibly in Brussels. I would urge members to look at the | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
wording of the preamble to the European treaties as to what that | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
phrase was originally intended to mean. The exact wording varies from | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
time to time but we're talking about ever closer union between the | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
peoples of Europe so that decisions can be taken as close to the | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
decisions as possible. I want to ask those on this side of the house who | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
are so determined to argue against that concept, are we saying that we | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
want to derive the peoples of Europe -- drive the peoples of Europe | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
further apart, at a time when they are facing -- we are facing the | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
greatest humanitarian crisis in our history that nobody believes can be | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
addressed by individual nations acting on their own? Are we really | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
acting against the concept of ever closer union between the peoples of | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
Europe. The peoples, plural, is not some kind of mistake because it was | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
said by Alexander the meerkat, it is their to recognise the diversity in | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
the cultures and faiths of people in Europe. Are we against the decision | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
that this should be taken by the people as closely as possible? I | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
think that phrase can still be turned into one of the greatest | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
assertions of the rights of the peoples of Europe that we have seen. | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
It is a vision that has not been followed by institutions of the | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
European Union and I willingly accent that. The institutions of the | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
European Union have failed and are still continuing to fail on the | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
vision that was that out in individual treaties. I would much | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
rather we continued to be part of a European Union so that that vision | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
can be delivered, because it is a vision that I find not only | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
welcoming, I find it highly exciting. Just imagine living in a | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
Europe where monolithic power mad bureaucrats whether it be in | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
Brussels or somewhere a bit closer to home are no longer able to ride | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
roughshod over the will of the people. I would remind the house | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
that there was a Prime Minister not that long ago who chose to ride | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
roughshod over the will of the people and the immovable object that | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
was the late Margaret Thatcher met the irresistible force that was the | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
will of the people of Scotland over the imposition of the poll tax. | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
Within two years, the immovable object had been moved and the | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
irresistible force that is the sovereign rule of the people of | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
Scotland is still there and will be there forever. Can I assure him that | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
the one thing the irresistible force would not be able to compete against | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
would be an irresistible force from Brussels? You would never get your | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
way, never again. Mr Speaker, nobody knows. During the independence | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
referendum people asked why I was still happy for Scotland... We have | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
never had a chance to be part of the European Union. Luxembourg gets a | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
vote on fishing policy and Scotland doesn't. Scotland's fisheries | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
minister was not allowed to be part of the delegation. They sent an | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
unelected Lord instead of a minister who is actually respected by | :34:51. | :34:59. | |
fishermen. My own constituency has a bigger coastline than Luxembourg, | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
and yet Luxembourg gets a vote on fishing policy. These are the kind | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
of reforms we wish to see. Mr Speaker, I love to see the day when | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
the dream of Europe as originally set out is realised, when the | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
peoples of Europe are genuinely brought closer together, not the | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
institutions, not the civil servants, not the governments but | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
the peoples of Europe are brought closer together and decisions are | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
taken more closely to the people that they are just now. I long to | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
see a Europe where man to man the world over... Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :35:29. | :35:43. | |
In 2013, the Prime Minister set out the future of Europe in his | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
Bloomberg speech, the Prime Minister acknowledged that the status quo was | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
not working for us any more. He promised change, reform, and even a | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
new treaty, having received the draft negotiation I ask myself, | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
where are these grand promises of fundamental reform? There are none, | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
not a single clear-cut promise on a treaty change. The Prime Minister | :36:14. | :36:22. | |
said that the European Union cannot progress with more of the same. So | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
far, that is all I have heard. More of the same complex rules and | :36:28. | :36:41. | |
restrict doing, more of the same foreign domination that we have not | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
asked for and we do not want. Bash and restrictions. The European Union | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
is its own biggest threat. How many times will be be promised a more | :36:54. | :36:55. | |
competitive environment, how many times have we been told that red | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
tape will be cut and the single market strengthened? We have yet to | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
see real promises then we have yet to see proper results, enough is | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
enough. I'm interested in Donald Tusk's definition of sovereignty. | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
Because the proposals can hardly be called sovereign. Nor do they let | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
power flow back into this Parliament. Instead, we could | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
receive a red card. A red card that can only be used when a group of | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
national parliaments decide to stop a legislative proposal, a majority | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
of 55% of member states is to be a red card. Where is my majority would | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
be 100% of the United Kingdom. -- wearers. What about this emergency | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
brake? An emergency that needs to be objectively justified and wear as it | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
is jolly good that the commission tells us that the UK would qualify | :38:08. | :38:20. | |
to pull this break, it is outrageous that the final word would lie with | :38:21. | :38:28. | |
other member states. We might not have to pursue an ever closer union. | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
When the UK is neither allowed to pull its own break or to decide its | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
own emergency, that is when I feel that the ever closer union is still | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
very much upon us. The Prime very much upon us. The Prime | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
Minister described an updated European Union as flexible, | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
adaptable and more open. I can only see this supposedly updated European | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
Union, that is inflexible, on adaptable and blocked, and the Prime | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Minister did warn us and say that you will not always get what you | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
want. But it is becoming clearer by the day, that with the European | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
Union, you never get what you want. If the European Union really wants | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
us to stay, would they not have offered us more? The European Union | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
has sucked up our sovereignty, trampled all over our ancient rights | :39:34. | :39:41. | |
and freedoms. Are we simply going to carry on with this relationship we | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
have with the EU when the EU so obviously does not want to change? | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
Is not the only solution to say, leave, to this whole spectacle? This | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
renegotiation is a spectacle. Too much noise, much too little | :39:59. | :40:11. | |
substance. Sir Joel Howarth. What a great budget is to take part in this | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
vitally important about and I congratulate my friend from Basildon | :40:17. | :40:27. | |
and Billericay -- what a great privilege. As to my friend from West | :40:28. | :40:38. | |
Devon, that was a told a force. -- for divorce. This is not a new | :40:39. | :40:46. | |
issue. This has been going on for the best part of over half a | :40:47. | :40:54. | |
century. When the then Lord Privy Seal Edward Heath sought advice from | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
the then Lord Chancellor, in December 1960, he gave advice in | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
respect of our potential membership of the common market as it was then | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
called. "I Have no doubt if we signed the treaty we will suffer | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
some loss of sundry, but before I evaluate that loss I want to make | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
one general observation, at the end of the day, the decision to join | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
must be decided on broad political grounds -- some loss of sovereignty" | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
. He said it will affect our sovereignty in three ways, he | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
thought. Parliament will be required to surrender some of its functions | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
to the community, the Crown will be called to transfer part of its | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
treaty making power to those organs, our courts of law would sacrifice | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
some degree of independence by becoming subordinate in certain | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
justice. Lord Kilmore oil could not justice. Lord Kilmore oil could not | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
have been clearer, and in 1975 when people were asked to vote on these | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
matters, this issue of the loss of sovereignty was played down by Ted | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
Heath and his government at the time. Some of us foresaw the | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
dangers, we then saw that the organisation, the European economic | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
community had a president and a flag, an anthem, and a court. In | :42:10. | :42:19. | |
1986, 45 of us voted against the single European act, I'm the only | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
Conservative left in the House who voted against it, but there are two | :42:23. | :42:33. | |
on the other benches. I'm in questionable company, but we did | :42:34. | :42:43. | |
have one thing in common at that time and I still do. The European | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
and it is designed to undermine ain't | :42:47. | :43:01. | |
so, of course, but these are all the attributes of a sovereign nation | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
state, and we deceive ourselves if we imagine that this process has now | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
somehow come to a halt. But it has been frozen in aspect -- aspic. We | :43:13. | :43:21. | |
do have to prove to the people, because they can see the direction | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
of travel that has taken place since 1975 on how this organisation which | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
we were told was going to be a common market on goods and services | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
has grown to become so much more, and they intend to continue. As so | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
many members have said, look at the Eurozone, the currency and the | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
absurd deceit that you can have a single currency without a single | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
monetary institution operating a single monetary policy, this process | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
will continue and the British people must be warned that if they vote to | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
stay in this organisation they will not be voting for the status quo. | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
They will be voting for further integration and further change. The | :44:00. | :44:08. | |
Prime Minister, in his excellent speech at the Bloomberg | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
organisation, he made it clear that he believed in maximising | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
parliamentary sovereignty, but the proposals that are contained in the | :44:22. | :44:23. | |
Donald Tusk arrangements, as my Donald Tusk arrangements, as my | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
friend pointed out, these are absurd. We have got to get another | :44:30. | :44:37. | |
15 parliaments to agree, this is not the restoration of sovereignty to | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
this Parliament, this is basically a cop out. I salute the European | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
illustrious members are here today, illustrious members are here today, | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
for the work they have done in pointing out exactly what the | :44:50. | :45:03. | |
situation is. The report which was called reforming the European | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
scrutiny committee, published in 2013, it said the EU, the existing | :45:12. | :45:19. | |
article, which is the EU shall respect the functions of its member | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
states, the democracy of member states, according to the committee | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
report, it recommended there should be a mechanism where the House of | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
Commons can decide that a certain legislative repose or should not | :45:32. | :45:33. | |
apply to the United Kingdom. That seems to be the sensible way but I'm | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
sad that the Prime Minister did not accept the recommendations of the | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
committee. There is a way, but there is pending evidence to show that I | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
think we need to restore evidence, the British people have a | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I close with the words of supporter | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
Scott, the great Scottish border poet, from where I draw so much of | :46:00. | :46:11. | |
my own blood -- Sir Walter Scott. " This is my own, my native land, and | :46:12. | :46:28. | |
I want it back". David Nuttall. What is Parliamentary sovereignty? It is | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
the power, the ability of this house, this selective house, to | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
carry out the wishes of the British people. Southern tree of Parliament | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
is actually the sovereignty of the British people. It is the power of | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
the British people and gradually over the last 40 years, bit by bit, | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
successive governments have handed over this power, the power of this | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
House and therefore the power of the British people, to the European | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
Union, but it wasn't back in 1973, Union, but it wasn't back in 1973, | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
and when people voted in 1975, the European Union, then it was the | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
common market, the European economic community. Gradually, it got to the | :47:22. | :47:31. | |
state of the coming a state, it had all the attributes of becoming the | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
United States of Europe with its own parliament and its own flag and | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
anthem and Parliament, and its own court. You don't have to be Einstein | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
to work out where it is going. It is heading in that direction. In doing | :47:45. | :47:52. | |
so, it means that in so many areas the European Union, not this | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
Parliament, is sovereign. This loss of sovereignty on this Parliament is | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
at the heart of my opposition to our membership of the European Union. | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
Handing over powers to the European Union means handing over the powers | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
of my constituents, the British people. And my constituents in the | :48:13. | :48:23. | |
Bury North. It is important for this reason, because when my constituents | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
ask for help, they expect this Parliament to have the power and the | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
ability to be able to sort it out. In so many areas that is not the | :48:35. | :48:42. | |
case any more, and the reality is, whether we like it or not, the power | :48:43. | :48:50. | |
has been handed over to Brussels. That is a very good example, and we | :48:51. | :48:58. | |
have the ports regulation, where the industry employs unions, and the | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
government did not want it to happen, but we are powerless to do | :49:04. | :49:05. | |
anything about it because it will become a European regulation imposed | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
upon this Parliament unless we continue to obstruct it. My friend | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
is right, that is an excellent example. An example of where this | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
house the longer has the ability to control its own affairs. Can I pay | :49:23. | :49:30. | |
to view to the great work that my friend has done, and the European | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
scrutiny committee, bold roaring to the attention of this house and | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
therefore to the British people, the enormous number of rules and | :49:40. | :49:41. | |
regulations which actually come out of Brussels and have to then be | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
enforced by this Parliament. Our constituents come to us | :49:45. | :49:53. | |
expecting us to be able to help. When they find out that we are | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
unable to do so, what does that result in? That results in them | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
having a lack of confidence, a lack of faith in MPs and the political | :50:04. | :50:10. | |
process. That, in turn, is evidenced by a reduced turnout in elections, | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
because they think, why bother, these people have got no power any | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
more. That's why we've seen a falloff in turnout. It means there | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
is a lack of thing gauge and in the political process, because people | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
lose faith and confidence in the hold aquatic process. That is | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
dangerous. -- the whole democratic process. It is the way that | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
societies raked down, while democracy breaks down. That's why | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
it's so important that the people of this country sees this golden | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
opportunity in this forthcoming recommend -- referendum to take back | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
the powers. This is their one opportunity to take back the powers, | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
not for the sake of us in this house but for themselves. Because they | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
will then have the ability, if they don't like what we're doing, to get | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
rid of us and to be able to appoint someone else who they can have faith | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
in. This is where we have common cause with those on the left of | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
British politics who we might disagree with, because they want to | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
have a socialist system, that's what they believed in, that's an | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
honourable position to have. I prefer a capitalist system and I | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
will stand up and defend that, but we can both agree about democracy. | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
We can both agree that the power lies with our constituents, if they | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
don't want me, they can get rid of me and replace me with someone else. | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
We all stand on that basis. It is a golden opportunity. And I hope that | :51:46. | :51:52. | |
what goes out of this debate today is that they will realise that this | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
is the one chance that they will have probably in their lifetimes to | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
get back their powers. Because I do not believe that this renegotiation | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
has changed in any meaningful way the sovereignty of this house. It | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
will not give us back any powers and despite what we might be told, there | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
are a lot of words in these documents which we don't have time | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
in a few minutes to be able to go into in detail but I have looked at | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
them and I'm sure, I'm certain in my own mind that they do not give this | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
house any more powers back and that is why I hope in my heart of hearts | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
that the British people will ask themselves where do I want to be | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
governed by, from here in Westminster or by the foreign powers | :52:41. | :52:48. | |
in Brussels. Steve Baker. Doctor Julian Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
I have to say that if the British people miss this unique opportunity | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
to reject the undemocratic EU superstate project, it will be the | :53:01. | :53:10. | |
fault of people like me. Not me as I am today but me as I was in 1975, | :53:11. | :53:19. | |
when I had the chance to vote to withdraw from the then EEC and I | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
wasted it. Why did I waste that chance? It was very simple. I was | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
intimidated by the establishment. My instincts were to vote to leave, but | :53:32. | :53:41. | |
all around me, in Oxford in that home of lost causes, the great and | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
the good were saying that it was beyond question that the prosperity | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
of the United Kingdom depended upon remaining in the EEC. So I thought, | :53:50. | :53:58. | |
what do I know about it? After all, in those days, it was, as my | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
honourable friend for Berry pointed out, only about an economic | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
community. It wasn't about my pet subject of defence and the security | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
of the United Kingdom. How has that changed? Now it is and now we know | :54:12. | :54:20. | |
where we're heading. So when the time comes for me to advise my | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
constituents about what I think they should do, I will give them six good | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
reasons to leave the EU. I will tell them first that every year the | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
United Kingdom pays ?20 billion to this organisation and gets less than | :54:42. | :54:48. | |
half of it back. Secondly, I will tell them, as we've heard today, | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
that the EU wants ever closer political union and we cannot opt | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
out of this whilst remaining within the European Union. So-called | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
associate membership, which is the trick I think they have waiting to | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
give us at the final stage of the great concessionary Sherrard in | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
which we are currently in gauge, associate membership would actually | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
make no difference at all or might even diminish our own powers still | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
further. Thirdly, I will tell them that the European Union wants a | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
single European population with no borders between EU countries, so | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
that we cannot restrict immigration into the United Kingdom. Fourthly I | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
will tell them that the EU wants to develop its single European currency | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
into a single European economy, controlled from Brussels. Fifthly I | :55:50. | :55:58. | |
will tell them that the EU wants a single European army, a single | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
European foreign policy, and that did a lot of good to the Ukraine, | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
didn't it? Add a single European justice system, all outside UK | :56:06. | :56:12. | |
Government control. And finally, I shall tell them that all this is | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
designed to create a single country called Europe under a single | :56:19. | :56:25. | |
European Government, thus finally taking away the power of the British | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
people to govern ourselves. In his excellent opening speech, my | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
honourable friend for Basildon and Billericay gave a long list of | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
statements made by European bigwigs and I have to say that some of them | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
did actually stumble across the truth, as he pointed out, but | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
usually when they do stumble across the truth they picked themselves up, | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
crush themselves down and carry on as if nothing had happened, as | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
Churchill once said of a lesser British politician. There was one | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
occasion when the truth was told by a European Union bigwig and it was | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
on the New Year's Eve before the introduction of the single European | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
currency, which I think would have then been December 31 1998. I | :57:23. | :57:32. | |
happened to be up and waiting to see the celebrations of the New Year on | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
television and onto my screen came the visage of Romano Prodi, who was | :57:38. | :57:48. | |
then the president of the commission, or as these people like | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
to call themselves, the president of Europe. He was asked a simple | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
question. He was asked about the European single currency and the | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
question was put to him as follows. It's a political project, isn't it? | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
Now remember, this was the angle currency that had been sold to | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
people over and over again as being vital for their economic prosperity. | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
So that's what they asked him. And because it was too late to do | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
anything about it, he told the truth. And he told the truth in an | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
entirely cynical way when he replied, "It is an entirely | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
political project". So we know what they're trying to do and the answer | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
of what we have to achieve is to make sure that people come away and | :58:40. | :58:48. | |
they come to make their decision, are not intimidated by the great and | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
the good on economic grounds, when the real aim is political and they | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
should reject it and vote to leave. James. Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
also congratulate my honourable friend, the member for Basildon and | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
Billericay, on securing this very important debate. The principle of | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
parliamentary sovereignty is the central pillar of the British | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
constitution. It is a principle that, in modern history, flows from | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
the glorious Revolution of 1688. It is the very fountainhead of our | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
freedoms and democracy in this country and I believe it is a | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
principle that every member of this house should seek to defend. Mr | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
Speaker, I've been concerned about Parliamentary sovereignty since | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
1972. I was a very unfortunate Saudi youth! But I remember the debate | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
over accession to what was then the European economic community. I was | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
told by Edward Heath that we would not be losing our sovereignty but we | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
would merely be sharing it. I felt at the time that that was a | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
nonsensical proposition. Sovereignty, realistically, cannot | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
be shared. It can either be preserved or it can be surrendered. | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
It was because of that that in 1975, like my honourable friend for New | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
Forest East, I voted against remaining in the European Union and | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
I have to say that my friends have not changed since. My view is that | :00:20. | :00:27. | |
we have ceded, although where hope it is temporarily, our sovereign -- | :00:28. | :00:36. | |
sovereignty to the European Union. I believe that that sovereignty can be | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
recovered. I believe that it is not completely lost. But the concern is | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
that the act creation of power to the European Union, which the union | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
is clearly intent on pursuing if the President's report is anything to go | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
by, carries with it the danger that at one stage our sovereignty will be | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
extinguished. That is not something that anyone at this house from the | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
Prime Minister down should be prepared to accept. The Prime | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
Minister, of course, said in his Bloomberg speech, there is not in my | :01:08. | :01:19. | |
view a single European Demos, it is national parliaments that will | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
retain the case of sovereignty in the EU, and that is certainly the | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
case in the United Kingdom. But we must look at the proposition which | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
the Prime Minister unveiled at the house yesterday. The question is | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
whether that decision would, if agreed, be sufficient to restore the | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
sovereignty of the United Kingdom that has been ceded to the EU. I | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
have huge concerns that it does not. In the first place, as my honourable | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
friend for Stone has pointed out in his committee's report, the legal | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
force of a decision which is the agreement of heads of state is one | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
which is open to debate. The draft decision details the various areas | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
of provisional agreement that have been struck between the British | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
Government and the President of the Council and other honourable members | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
have referred to the issues of freedom of movement and benefits and | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
I don't propose to repeat their arguments. However, I would like to | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
refer to what the draft decision says about sovereignty. In the first | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
place, the significance of the repeated references in the treaties, | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
the European treaties, to the creation of an ever closer union, | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
are played down considerably. The decision declares that the word | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
should not be used to support an expansive interpretation of the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
competencies of the EU or of the power of its institutions. Instead | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
it suggests that the words are simply intended to signal that the | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
union's aim is to promote trust and understanding among the peoples of | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
Europe. Would he agree that with respect to this expression "Ever | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
closer union", even if it is taken out in respect of the United | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
Kingdom, it will not change one word of any of the existing treaties or | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
any of the existing laws and therefore we continue to remain in, | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
subject to those laws and treaties? My honourable friend is entirely | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
right. The decision acknowledges that the competence that had been | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
conferred by the member states on the union can only be modified by | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
revision of the treaties with the agreement of all member states. | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
Therefore the commitment of ever closer union is stated to be | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
symbolic. The reality is that competencies have been transferred | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
from the sovereign nations of Europe, Britain included, to the EU | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
and its institutions. The extent of that transfer is very great indeed, | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
as honourable members have pointed out. The institutions of the EU have | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
become ever more powerful. Indeed, so powerful are they that the | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
proposal to limit benefits to EU migrants under new rules on child | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
benefit, set out in a draft decision itself, would, it seems, be | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
vulnerable, even if agreed by heads of Government or state. Today's | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
newspapers report, Mr Speaker, that members of the European Union will | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
have to bash EU parliament will have the right to veto all reforms | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
proposed including the so-called emergency brake. I will be pleased | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
to give way. Does he not agree that if we are not able to secure | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
substantive reform now, when the second largest member of the union | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
is threatening to walk away, when the fifth-largest economy is likely | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
to walk away, the chances of us ever getting substantive change our nil? | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
I agree entirely with the honourable gentleman, that is the direction of | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
travel that the European Union is hell-bent on pursuing. A document | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
circulated in the European Parliament asserts that the European | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
Parliament will defend the fundamental principles and | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
objectives of the EU and will be cautious of setting dangerous | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
precedents which could undermine such principles and objectives. The | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
issue of Parliamentary sovereignty, Mr Speaker, could not be thrown into | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
any sharper relief. Nor do the red card proposals protect British | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
parliamentary sovereignty, they require recent opinions to be | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
submitted within 12 weeks of submission of a draft EU law and | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
need to represent more than 55% of the votes allocated to national | :05:25. | :05:25. | |
parliaments. I will give way. I wanted my friend | :05:26. | :05:39. | |
can help the House, this issue, the number parliaments or the weighted | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
votes? Germany has 16% of the weighted votes and France has nearly | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
13% of the weighted votes. My understanding it is the latter. This | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
does not amount to a reassertion of the sovereignty of the Queen in | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
Parliament, and I noted yesterday that in response to your question, | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
the Prime Minister said asserting the sovereignty of this House is | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
something we did try introducing... That we did by introducing the | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
European Union act in 2011, and he said he was keen to do it even more, | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
that they will look to do that, at the same time as concluding | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
negotiations. We will be looking forward to seeing what that | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
announcement is, and it will be very helpful if my right honourable | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
friend the giver is an inkling of what is proposed so we can achieve | :06:41. | :06:49. | |
some comfort -- can give us. If what he has done is insufficient the | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
British people will be right to conclude that a vote to withdraw | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
from the European Union will be the only way to preserve the value | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
constitutional integrity of our country. Richard racks. | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
More than 70 years ago our great either nation stood alone against | :07:08. | :07:16. | |
the tyranny of the jackboot -- island nation. Our freedom and | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
Argosy and sovereignty were in mortal peril, led by Winston | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
Churchill we did not flinch to protect them, and hundreds of | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
thousands of our brave men and women, in uniform and out, gave | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
their lives to defend our island and everything we stand for. Because of | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
their sacrifice we have a daunting responsibility to respect what they | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
fought and died for. I must ask, why are we so prepared to hand the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
future destiny of our proud island nation to unaccountable bureaucracy | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
with barely a murmur? How dare we, how dare we. And how dare anyone | :07:59. | :08:08. | |
want to go down this road, I simply cannot understand it. We have a duty | :08:09. | :08:17. | |
to those who fought and died to stand up for our country and to make | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
sure that hurt sovereignty is kept intact. This sham of a renegotiation | :08:21. | :08:31. | |
does not do that and we all know it. Sadly, one treaty after another has | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
undermined our will to resist a and we have already handed over the UK's | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
head, torso arms and legs will stop now we propose to surrender our very | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
sovereign. And to whom? The answer is a group of unelected | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
commissioners who sit in their multi-million pound glass towers, | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
surrounded by the trappings of secretaries and expenses, | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
pontificating over lobster and champagne, over plans to great a | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
wonderful centralised state, a federal Europe, where uniformity is | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
pressed on and on willing and electric either by guile, persuasion | :09:13. | :09:25. | |
or threat. -- on willing electorate. Is that not the central point of the | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
willingness of the EU having sovereignty devolved to individuals | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
and parliaments, because they can't afford it. If they are going to | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
centralise functions across Europe, forcing states and individuals into | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
arrangements they don't want, sovereignty is the last thing they | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
will tolerate. I could not have said it better. I will expand on that | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
very point. Who is going to lose out? The voters. The man and woman | :09:55. | :10:06. | |
industry who are the members -- on the street who the members on the | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
opposite benches claim to represent. They will find they have no control | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
or say, meanwhile, the political elite marches on. They will be deaf | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
to the cries of those who elected them. Regrettably, this madness will | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
continue, at least in the short term. Germany has too much to lose. | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
And to control the experiment further, closer integration is not | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
only necessary, but it is inevitable. With more and more power | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
going to the centre, what ever the Prime Minister says to the contrary. | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
We are told we are safe from all this, but we are not, and I'm sure | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
that the Prime Minister, an intelligent man, knows it in his | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
heart. I've watched, appalled and dismayed, as we seeded powers to the | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
EU, in an insidious and gradual erosion of our sovereignty. There | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
was a time when all the laws affecting the people of this country | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
were made in this house by directly elected members like us. As we know, | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
that is not the case. As we are being dragged, kicking and | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
screaming, down this truly and democratic path, we have been | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
assured by one Prime Minister after another, don't worry, we have a veto | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
over this, a veto over that, don't worry, we have a red card we can | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
wave, and now we have got to persuade at least 15 EU members to | :11:38. | :11:46. | |
agree with us. Will they hell. To make Mr Speaker, sovereignty means | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
the ability to govern ourselves free from outside interference, but we | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
are not free to do that today. The heavens sake, we have got to ask 27 | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
countries for permission to change our welfare. Meanwhile, our borders | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
are dangerously porous, permanently open to EU citizens and horribly | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
vulnerable to input nation by those who will do us harm. What staggers | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
me is how we have wandered into this trap -- vulnerable to those who will | :12:18. | :12:29. | |
do us on. As a member of the European scrutiny committee I see | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
first-hand the raft of legislation that comes in boat loads from across | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
the Channel. It interferes in every single facet of our lives. I will | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
not give way. The arrogance is mind blowing, the intrusion terrifying, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
the accountability is nonexistent. We have nothing to fear from leaving | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
the EU, except fear itself. That is what the Europhiles are peddling and | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
they are genuinely in hold of a misconceived belief that we are more | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
secure inside the EU than out. Why? The problems of the euro, | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
unemployment, the refugee crisis, they are tearing the EU apart and I | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
can see no logic in that argument. It is Nato that has helped the | :13:21. | :13:29. | |
peace, not the EU. As ever closer union forces more conformity on | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
member nations, the wider the chasm between the electorate and the | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
elected will grow. That is where the wound will fester. There are clear | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
indications of this already across Europe. Who would have thought that | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
the biggest threat to our freedom, democracy and sovereignty, since the | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
Second World War would come from within? I shudder at the indications | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
of staying in the EU and the consequence that will have on | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
everything I and millions of others hold dear. What we need is the | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
enterprise, flair and intelligence and determination, of one nation, to | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
get out there and do business with the world, safe in the knowledge | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
that the country is sovereign, free and truly democratic. Let the Lion | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
roar. Craig Maclean Lee. Can I pay AGB to the business | :14:23. | :14:32. | |
committee for allowing this debate at the right time -- can I pay a | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
tribute. We will hear that the EU is something about free trade, and you | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
need not worry that it is any different from the institution that | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
we thought we were joining in 1973 and I very much fear that we will | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
not be hearing much about this debate, about sovereignty, in this | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
referendum period, so I'm pleased we're this today. It will be about | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
trade. We heard that from the opposition benches yesterday, that | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
we will lose trade from Brexit, but what is really quoted is the 5.5 | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
million jobs in the EU that are reliant on trade with us, the 60 | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
billion trade deficit that we have with EU countries, with those other | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
27, we are a premier market for EU products and we abide by the rule of | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
law and we are a decent country to do business with. Are we to believe | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
that BMW would not want to sell us their cars? Are we really to believe | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
that a Frenchman would look at a range Rover and say, they are not in | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
the club any more, I'm not going to buy their product. I will give way | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
on that point. That is a valid point. It is important that the stay | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
campaign is positive, and does he realise that the arguments he is | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
rubbishing now, if we left the EU, if we had... Does except that the | :16:04. | :16:12. | |
item that you are advancing similar to what was was being advanced when | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
we have the Scottish referendum -- does accepting the item. I find it | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
curious, how those arguments about trade, that you raise now, you | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
somehow twist them now to your enthusiasm for the European Union, | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
and yet... I do not think trade was at risk if Scotland had left, but | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
you now think it is with the European Union. Order. You keep | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
using the word you, he's a enthusiastic advocate of the British | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
Parliament and a key tenet of our debates is that the debate goes to | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
the chair. There is no you involved. My apologies. It is always exciting | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
when there is an intervention from an SNP member. We have to recognise | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
that trade has changed and that the world is a global place, that trade | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
barriers have come down. I find it strange that many of those trade | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
areas are good when the nations Commonwealth nations, and I find it | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
very strange that our friends, our kids and kin, family, would extract | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
their wallets and find a note with a very familiar and loved face on it, | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
and yet we deny them access to our country. We are not allowed to speak | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
to them on trade terms, because that is done, of course, by a Swedish | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
commissioner. A former university lecturer. You could scarcely make it | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
up. We have enthused about having the Premier of China and India to | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
our country, and yet it is really nothing more than much of a | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
Sherrard. -- much of a trade. We hear that the EU is moving in our | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
direction and that we have got to stay in it to be of influence. We | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
have tried that argument over 40 long years. We have tried to change | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
things and try to reduce its powers, and try arguing that with a small | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
fishermen in Ramsgate or small businesses across our country, with | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
the regulations or red tape. What is the recent history of being at the | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
top table and working from within? At the Council of ministers we are | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
always on the opposing side. The primers that has been outvoted on a | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
qualified majority voting rolls 42 times since 2010 -- the Prime | :18:50. | :18:59. | |
Minister. He is -- needs to be honest with us, the EU is moving in | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
a different direction. We will hear about security and justice, and | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
unafraid that will be part of that operation fear, for the electorate | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
to Meli acquiesce quietly and gently, as we continue the | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
disruption of the sovereignty of this Parliament and this place. We | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
need to go back in time to 1971, two Edward Heath's White Paper, adding | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
that he said there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
-- and in that. He said there are some in this country who think we | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
will sacrifice our independence by going into Europe, and these fears, | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
I need hardly say, are completely unjustified. I'm afraid, papers | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
since written by the Foreign Commonwealth Office really reveal | :19:55. | :19:54. | |
what was happening. What has developed since then, | :19:55. | :20:04. | |
obviously those papers were in the very infant days of what the | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
European Union was trying to become. It has amassed a number of treaties | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
since, it has amassed Barak tips and decisions, and of course that bulk | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
of ECJ law. Particularly on VAT, we are completely and utterly | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
subservient to EU law. We had an entertaining debate this week about | :20:28. | :20:37. | |
tax and I think that demonstrates that this place is unable to enact | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
any changes to a key stream of national legislation. We just merely | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
walk through the lobbies, supplicant to what Brussels has told us we must | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
do. Then the Chancellor prepares his annual budget, he first has to start | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
with that ?20 billion of gross contributions to the EU, some 30% of | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
our current deficit. Across corporate taxes in dividends and | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
losses, the primary authority are increasingly ECJ cases and when a | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
Chancellor seeks new rules to actually enhance Britain's | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
investment and entrepreneurial spirit, I will quote the enterprise | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
investment scheme and more recently seed investment schemes, "He had to | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
seek permission from Brussels just in case it flouted state aid rules". | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
The direction of travel by this European Union is very obvious and I | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
will quote Angela Merkel. "We Need political union, which means we must | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
gradually cede powers to Europe and give your control." We are simply, | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
Mr Speaker, on the wrong bus. If we don't take this opportunity to | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
leave, it is probably just as well that there is a major renovation | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
proposed for this palace to be conducted. Because old museums need | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
care. This referendum gives the opportunity to restore this place, | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
to restore to the public of the UK which should never have been taken | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
away from them. Mr Marcus Fish. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I believe in | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
the primacy and sovereignty of this house that flows from the people who | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
sent us here and it's a great honour to follow such rousing and | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
passionate speeches in that regard. My position that I put to my | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
constituents before I was elected was that I would try to give my | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
dispassionate assessment of them of what the referendum choice means in | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
real terms for people and their families and try to explain that | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
logic so that others can see it and make their own choice. I would make | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
a constructive attempt to approach whatever happens next to make sure | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
that we get the best deal for those people. If the house will bear with | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
me for one minute, I want to run through a bit of a ledger on each | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
side as to what some of the advantages of leaving or otherwise | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
might be. Firstly, in the area which is so important to people, can they | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
get a house? I believe there will be -- they will be a lot less likely to | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
be able to get houses on balance if we don't leave. That is partly | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
because there is such an influx of migration from the EU which I don't | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
think we'll let up because of what is being proposed in the | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
renegotiation. I would score that a five out of ten on a range of | :23:37. | :23:45. | |
effects. Second thing is access to services like their school places | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
and their hospitals. I think again that it would be a lot less likely | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
on balance unless we leave that they would have that access. Next is the | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
cost of living and whether that would be manageable. I think that | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
that would be less likely, although not a lot less. I think there will | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
be benefits of less regulation and tax if we leave but I worried about | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
the VAT imposition is imposed on food and clothes in particular and | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
potentially fuel duty. So four is the score I would give them there. | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
Can they move to a big city in this city in search of work? I would say | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
that is a lot less likely and thus I would score that five, unless we | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
leave, because the demand for housing in London and jobs in London | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
is really massive at the moment because of that foreign demand which | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
is closing out -- crowding out domestic supply. Can they get a job | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
where they are? I would say that that's pretty much similar overall | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
either way. I think there may be one or two surprises on trade but I | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
think they would be more than offset or at least as offset by things we | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
can do in terms of negotiating our own trade arrangements. Will their | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
job pay better? Overall, I think that that will be the case if we | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
leave, but not a lot more, so I would score that four. Will they be | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
able to go on holiday and work in Europe? That is a marginally less | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
likely thing if we leave, although I don't think there is any particular | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
issue there in Visa arrangements with non-EU countries that are | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
perfectly normal and work quite well. For countries like Australia. | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
I would score that probably a two, a marginal negative, out of the five. | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
Will they be safe, due to the domestic security arrangements? I | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
really think this is going to be the same either way. I think we already | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
sharing our data with our friends in Europe and that would not cease. | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
It's only very recently anyway that we have for example been sharing the | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
passenger manifest on aeroplanes, which is amazing, really. But I | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
think that that will keep happening. Will we be saved to international | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
again I think it's the same either way. We have heard earlier that we | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
rely on Nato and that would not change with by natural -- bilateral | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
Alaba is being constructed, I'm sure. Will our environment be | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
secure? I think that would be possibly less so, so I would score | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
that two on the little scale I'm doing. Just to vocalise it a bid for | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
a second and to speak to my constituents, one of the concerns | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
they have is as a big exporter like Westland which is international | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
might run into trouble if we leave the EU. I personally think that that | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
is not such a worry, I think we would need to preserve the same sort | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
of regulation in many senses as we have now, for example on Government | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
procurement of large defence orders and that sort of thing. I think we | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
would need to look at replacing some of the science and technology | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
research investment money that the EU currently provides. But that is | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
certainly not beyond the wit of man and these are doable things. Just on | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
that, the other area we would need to look at is farming subsidies. We | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
heard earlier on a member opposite -- from in opposite and I would | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
agree on that. Would you not agree that we no longer have to pay about | :27:27. | :27:36. | |
?10 billion net -- if we no longer have to pay about ?10 billion net to | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
the European Commission we would have an awful lot of money for | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
investment in research best remark I thank my right honourable friend for | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
his intervention and I would agree that I think there is scope there | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
and clearly a lot would need to be spent. We would have to spend a lot | :27:56. | :28:08. | |
on it. Just to summarise, aldolase ten things, the score that I had was | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
basically 36 out of 50 which means that by my logic there which doesn't | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
include an emotional logic which I will come onto in a minute, which is | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
to do with the sovereignty, that does tend to lean meat awards, | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
personally, thinking that I should think that it is in our interests to | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
leave. I would need to feel a fairly strong emotional attachment towards | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
the EU project or institutions to outweigh that. While I don't have | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
that emotional attachment myself, I realise that others might and that | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
they might also have slightly different assessments of their | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
interests and they would happily be able to choose for themselves. When | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
it comes to the sovereignty argument and whether a sovereignty clause or | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
clauses in the renegotiation going on at the moment would make a major | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
difference, I think, you know, that is less clear, particularly on the | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
restriction of immigration. But I don't think we can necessarily | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
reform the EU dramatically by staying in. Clearly the devil will | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
be in the detail and I will certainly look at that and I have | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
not made up my mind fully on that. But I do believe in Britain and its | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
people and the emotion I feel at the moment is really towards them and | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
personally at this stage I would be in client to leave. Thank you, Mr | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
Speaker. A great pleasure to follow my honourable friend and near | :29:38. | :29:39. | |
neighbour in Somerset, the member for Yeovil with his fantastic | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
adulation as to why on balance it would be the right thing to leave. I | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
know the people of Somerset will respond warmly to that lead he is | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
giving them. I want to pick up on a couple of threads made by my | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
honourable friends on this issue of parliamentary sovereignty and what | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
is it about. Because I think that we can sometimes get into the idea that | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
parliamentary sovereignty comes out of a vacuum, but in fact it is a | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
means to an end. It is not an end in itself. It is the way we represent | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
the sovereignty of the British people and they delegate to us for | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
five years the right to make laws in their names but at the end of that | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
five years they expect to have the sovereignty returned to them intact | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
for them to decide how it should be used in future. In that sense I'm | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
very close to the Scottish understanding of the sovereignty of | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
the people. Because it comes from them and it belongs to them and it | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
is not ours to give away, it is ours to protect, return and operate | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
within. It's not about us as individual members of Parliament, | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
it's not about these grand ruse, it's about the rights of the British | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
people and their ability to achieve, through us, the things they have | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
expected to achieve through centuries, primarily I'm thinking of | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
redress a grievance and the right to hold the Government to account. This | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
is where the issue is so difficult because although it is possible to | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
hold the Minister to account and seek redress agreements through this | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
house, in those areas that remain a domestic competence, as soon as the | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
issue has gone beyond these shores and become a European competence, it | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
is impossible to obtain redress agreements through this house. | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
Indeed I had correspondence with the Minister on the half of a | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
constituent where I was empathetic to my constituents's plight but that | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
if he was given the address he was needed, the British Government would | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
itself be fined, therefore he could not get that redress. That is a | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
fundamental attack on Parliamentary sovereignty. Parliamentary | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
sovereignty there for the right reason. Then you take the | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
renegotiation is around us. The honourable member made an | :32:01. | :32:02. | |
interesting point, he said he thought many of us by going to vote | :32:03. | :32:10. | |
against it anyway and were desperate to leave and whatever happened we | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
would not have been willing to accept what the Prime Minister came | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
up with. I don't actually accept that. I think this was an | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
opportunity for fundamental reform and that has not happened. I do | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
believe that the Government has acted in good faith. I don't believe | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
it's got it right but I believe it is in good faith. It is negotiating | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
around the edges, perhaps so seeped in the way of the machinations of | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
the European Union that they have failed to see the big picture. They | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
think that we are negotiating with 27 other countries and the | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
commission, if we get the right to hold a discussion on the difference | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
in view between the in and outs of the euro, that is an amazing | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
achievement, because it's like dealing with this brick wall, for | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
want of a better cliche coming immediately to mind, and we have | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
even been allowed a discussion, we have been allowed something very | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
important we can discuss as an electorate. But looking at it as a | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
-- from a further distance as to what the Prime Minister said over a | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
number of years and what he promised in his Bloomberg speech and what we | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
put in our manifesto, that was not dealing with petty changes around | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
the edges, that was dealing about fundamental reform and the | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
reassertion about sovereignty. Because the renegotiation is worth | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
in that sense so narrow and weak and uninspired, we are left with an | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
option in the referendum of no status quo. As my right honourable | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
friend the member for Aldershot said, it is not between leaving and | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
staying exactly as we are it is between leaving and remaining in a | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
union that is going to ever closer union. And where we look at where we | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
have had opt outs in the past, we know that this is true. The Prime | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
Minister said yesterday that the social chapter no longer exists. The | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
social chapter is incorporated within the treaty, so our opt out | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
there came and went as a frost on a winter morning might disappear at | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
the sun comes out. Opt out on Schengen? Well, it's there, it's | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
important. But recently we agreed that we would be part of a EU Border | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
Force because there is a migration problem, the solution to it is of | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
course more Europe, more European integration and we're going along | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
with it. We're not formally part of it but we're going along with it. | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
The Dublin treaties on returning people to the place where they first | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
sought sanctuary are coming under threat, which would make our | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
position outside Schengen very difficult to manage. On justice and | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
home affairs, we got an opt out under the Treaty of Lisbon. But | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
again and again we have given more weight, we gave away the | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
investigation and rest now in the hands of the European Union. Of | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
course I will give way. My honourable friend, allow me to say, | :35:09. | :35:20. | |
why was there no, no, why was there no referendum on the case of whether | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
these things that were first taken out and then sent back? | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
The referendum act was a protection and also part of a coalition deal, | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
and within that it made sure that the things the Lib Dems were keen on | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
when automatically going to trigger a referendum, but I agree that we | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
should have had a referendum on giving back those things we had | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
claimed then we opted out of justice and home affairs matters a little | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
over a year ago, but when you have got a rest and investigation | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
determined that a European level, the item is going to become | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
stronger, that if a Bulgarian issues a arrest warrant in the United | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
Kingdom, surely there needs to be European common standard to make | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
sure that is done properly. So that direction of travel of where we are | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
is to more Europe. Even within, the context of monetary union, we only | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
have an opt out from stage three, bear in mind, we are committed to | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
stages one and two, and the European Union has not enforce these in | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
recent years for obvious reasons. But that will not always be the | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
case. We are committed, Article 142 of the Treaty of the functioning of | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
the European Union is relevant to this, we are committed to our | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
currency being of interest to the European Union. I will give way. | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
Would you agree with me that part of the problem is that there is a huge | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
degree of unification among the elite at the heart of the European | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
Union, but there is no such sense of common identity among the people of | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
the countries that we represent. You have hit the nail on the head, he is | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
right. There no common people, but there is an elite have this vision | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
of more Europe being the answer to a maiden 's prayer. When you look at | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
the treatment of Greece and the way it suffered with its membership of | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
the euro, forced and encouraged by the European Union and the | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
commission to do it, partly because they were the birthplace of | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
democracy and how outrageous if they did not join in this grand political | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
scheme, and then when they got into difficulties, difficulties | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
economists knew they would get into, what is the answer from the European | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
Union? More Europe and more control of their fares and order action of | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
what they would do -- of their affairs. What has happened in | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
Greece, the clash that is in the motion before us, that is what we | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
have seen, a choice of moving to a single European state or maintaining | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
the sovereignty that is still ours, and to do that we have two vote to | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
leave because Texas maintained it had the right to leave the union of | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
United States, but it didn't. Mr Stephen Gethin 's. I would like the | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
debate to finish at three, if possible, preferably no later, and I | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
don't know if they will be a division of the House, but I would | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
like the debate to finish by three o'clock, if we can manage that. | :38:34. | :38:42. | |
Thank you. Can I give thanks to the member for Basildon and Bill | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
originally for bringing this discussion here -- Billericay. For | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
those coming late to the debate, I would refer you to the excellent | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
speech that was given by my honourable friend, the member for | :39:01. | :39:10. | |
glam rock, -- the member for Glenrothes, Mr Speaker, I want to | :39:11. | :39:19. | |
say this, we think that these negotiations have been a missed | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
opportunity and we wonder if when we hear words about blaming the | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
European Union, if actually we should be thinking about how the UK | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
uses its role as a member state instead, because I think that is | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
where the fault lies over the years. I will give way. I'm grateful for | :39:38. | :39:48. | |
bat. At this very moment, there are no fewer than 16 documents from | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
Europe, the European scrutiny committee has asked to be debated in | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
Parliament, some are scheduled and some are not scheduled and some have | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
been waiting for over two years. Would the rod and | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
would you agree that we should look more closely at the government's | :40:08. | :40:17. | |
unwillingness to be scrutinised but -- scrutinised Britain that is a | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
good point. I know that is a frustration that | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
the UK Government is reluctant to have their actions scrutinised | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
within the EU, maybe this is something that can be scrutinised in | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
the summing up. In terms of the missed opportunity, there was a lack | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
of consultation with the devolved administrations for whom this will | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
have a significant impact. Mr Speaker, this government, it needs | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
all be friends it can possibly get, and the failure to take on board the | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
devolved administrations who have done a better job of making friends | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
and influence in recent times was a missed opportunity. Another missed | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
opportunity was to think about what really constitutes a member state. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Members on the opposite side of the House were trying to compare | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
Scottish independence with this debate, and let me tell the House | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
this, the European Union could not impose the poll tax on the United | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
Kingdom against its will, the European Union could not have | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
nuclear convoys going through the United Kingdom against its will and | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
the European Union could not impose Trident on the United Kingdom | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
against its will, order things which could be imposed on Scotland. -- all | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
things. The role of the member state and Scotland are totally different | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
issues. I will always give way. I'm delighted. Can I just suggest, very | :41:48. | :41:57. | |
gently, when the Scottish people voted for the union, they voted for | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
the ability to make decisions on behalf of all the people of our | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
union and that needs to be recognised. When the action voted | :42:07. | :42:14. | |
for that union. -- when they actually voted. On that very point, | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
of course they did, this is an issue of respect, and we may not have | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
liked that decision, but this was the decision they made and that is | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
why we are here, we are here in record numbers, in fact. We are here | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
to make our contribution. But this is about respect. Let me make this | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
point, in terms of respect, if we are going to have this referendum we | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
should not be having it too soon, that means respecting the electoral | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
process in Scotland and in Wales and Northern Ireland and London and in | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
the English local authorities. As the honourable member for Gordon and | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
the other members who have signed up to my motion, saying a June | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
referendum would be disrespectful, I think that goes to the heart and | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
that is why the European Union referendum will be a big test of the | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
union that the voters of Scotland voted to remain within. As well as | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
the respect agenda and having that, I think the Prime Minister and the | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
government, and I think people might agree with me, I think you should | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
have the courage of the convictions of the government and have a proper | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
debate about the emission of the European Union. The honourable | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
member for Gordon, he announced the date 544 days before the | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
independence referendum date. -- proper debate about the membership. | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
What I'm suggesting, June is too early, and what I'm suggesting, if | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
the government suggests this is a once in every 14 years decision, | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
that we do it properly and we have the courage of our convictions. I | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
fully believe that the case for remaining within the European Union | :43:58. | :43:59. | |
stands up to that scrutiny and I look forward to making that case. | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
Members will have different views and I respect that. But let's have a | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
proper debate on that issue. And also as a member, let's not have | :44:09. | :44:18. | |
another project fear, and I have been concerned by some of the | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
argument. Do not get me wrong, I think the United Kingdom could be a | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
successful independent country outside the European Union, I think | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
we could stand on its own fate. -- I think we could stand on our own | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
fate, but the question is whether we would be better off in doing so -- | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
feet. There is the question of the Scottish people being taken out of | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
the European Union against its own will. 44% of Scots would like to | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
remain within the European Union according to a poll, 21% wanting to | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
leave and the others are undecided, and that shows you that the | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland want to remain within | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
the European Union. I will give way. Very quickly, is he aware that there | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
are serious vested interests in the European Union which will no way | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
allow Scotland to exceed to the European Union and if you just want | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
to look at Spain. -- accent. If you think the European Union would not | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
vote to have its most energy rich country as part of its union, I | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
think you are seriously misunderstanding the European | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
project, I have not heard anything so ludicrous bust just as I have | :45:37. | :45:46. | |
heard other member say that Scotland is somehow behind Albania. That is | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
this respect. There is the issue of mutual respect, it comes down to | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
respect for immigrants and this is something which has been brought up | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
in this debate. Immigration is good for this country and has been good | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
for this country and I wanted to see immigration continue. It is good for | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
my constituencies and I think we need to be careful about how we | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
conduct back. -- about how we conduct back. I don't know what | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
difference this deal makes to Scotland. Does the principle of | :46:21. | :46:32. | |
subsidy end in this place question at I want to see a long debate, I | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
want to see a proper debate, and members across this House will vote | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
with us when it comes to setting the date for the referendum, but let's | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
talk about whether we should have more Europe. We should not be afraid | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
of that, climate change, security issues, climate change, yes, it does | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
exist. Fisheries is a issue we raised. It was the fishermen who | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
were described as expendable, not by the European Union, but by the | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
United Kingdom government that sought to represent them. And on | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
that, I thank the speaker. Very good. Pat Glass. This has been a | :47:13. | :47:20. | |
very long debate, and I've sat through this, I've counted that | :47:21. | :47:29. | |
there were 14 speeches starting with the member for Basildon and Bill | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
Ricky. I'm not counting the wind-up speech is -- Billericay full. All of | :47:34. | :47:43. | |
them have been very passionate and we have heard some very strong | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
views, and we heard the member for North East Somerset who is very | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
eloquent and entertaining, so much so that on occasion I find myself | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
nodding along with him even though I don't agree with a single word he | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
says. What has been depressing is that what we have heard is a rehash | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
of many of the same often ill informed stories about how Britain | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
no longer has control of its own sovereignty, having yielded | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
everything to Europe. What I found disappointing, to those people out | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
there, looking in here, this has been a debate largely of older | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
grey-haired men in grey suits, and that does not reflect the country | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
out there which we represent. And I don't believe... I said largely! I | :48:31. | :48:40. | |
don't believe that represents the country we are here to serve and I | :48:41. | :48:42. | |
don't believe it represents the views of the people out there. It | :48:43. | :48:52. | |
has been another debate and there will be many more in which the | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
Eurosceptic right wing of the Tory party have been able to grandstand | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
their views while positioning an ice pick in the back of their front | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
bench and lining up to rubbish their own Prime Minister. A few of my | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
colleagues have been enthusiastically joining in, two of | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
them, but given over 96% of the members of the Parliamentary Labour | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
Party including every member of the Shadow Cabinet are members of the | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party pro EU group it is clear that we are a pro | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
EU party campaigning actively to remain in the EU in the referendum. | :49:25. | :49:33. | |
We have heard much of one side of the argument, and I want to be | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
respectful to the House and give the Minister time to sum up. I intend to | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
keep this brief. The member for Basildon and Billericay at the | :49:43. | :49:49. | |
beginning, he said that the electorate got very exercised about | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
our sovereignty, but not in my experience. People in my | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
constituency are concerned about jobs, youth unemployment, housing, | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
the bedroom tax, tax avoidance on large companies, and immigration. | :50:01. | :50:33. | |
These are simply not the top of the priorities for people out there, | :50:34. | :50:42. | |
working hard. No. This is a largely Tory party drama, a blue on blue | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
issue with very little relevance to the lives of ordinary people | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
struggling to pay their rent and mortgages and to get their kids to | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
school. The Prime Minister has repeatedly given into his own right | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
wing, seeming not to understand that they will never be satisfied on | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
these issues and in doing so he has risked the future prosperity, safety | :51:05. | :51:06. | |
and place in the world of this country as a result. There are many | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
reasons, I'm not going to go over them in great detail, but there are | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
many reasons for amending part of the EU. The economic case, the | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
environmental case, the safety and security of this country in the | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
future and our place in the world. The Labour Party is committed to | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
keeping Britain in the European Union because we believe it is in | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
the best interests of the British people. For us it is simple, Britain | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
is a stronger, safer and more prosperous country as part of the | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
European Union. Mr Speaker, the world is becoming more and more | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
globalised. The problems we face are complex and need international | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
responses. We cannot solve the problems of climate change, | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
international terrorism, crime, people trafficking across the world, | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
on our own. We can only tackle with these issues by working with our | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
partners in Europe. We are part of Nato and the UN and the | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
organisations across the world which mean we have given up some of the | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
things we used to do ourselves for the greater good, the safety and | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
sometimes the prosperity of our country and I don't see a problem | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
with any of that. Moving on quickly to the future. I want to see our | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
sovereignty enhanced by seeking democratic reform that would make EU | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
decision-makers more accountable to its people and not both | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
metaphorically and physically distant from our communities. I want | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
to see economic reform that puts jobs and sustainable growth at the | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
centre of European policy, that brings labour market reforms to | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
strengthen workers rights in a real social Europe. I believe we enhance | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
our sovereignty by negotiating with our EU partners for policies and | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
agreements that benefit us as a country and improve the lives of our | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
citizens. But ultimately the referendum will come down to a | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
decision to remain or leave and I believe that the people of this | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
country will vote for the future and not for a past that only ever | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
existing in the minds of the Eurosceptics on the benches | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
opposite. I would say to the Minister that I would like to call | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
the member for Basildon and Billericay to wind up no later than | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
14.50 eight. Mr Speaker, this has been a long debate. I confess that | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
for me if passed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye! I think the | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
honourable lady will find that this was quite a briefing counter with | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
some of the arguments about this country's place in Europe! I want to | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
congratulate my honourable friend the member for Basildon and | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
Billericay on obtaining the debate and I want to move straight to | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
addressing the central arguments he described in his speech. He is right | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
that Parliamentary sovereignty lies at the heart of how the United | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
Kingdom thinks about its constitutional arrangements and it | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
is true that Parliament remains sovereign today, as I think he | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
himself said in his speech, there is only one reason European law has | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
effect in the United Kingdom at all and that is because Parliament has | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
determined that that should be so and has enacted laws which give | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
European law legal effect here. And to avoid any misunderstanding about | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
the fact that any authority EU law has in Britain derives from | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
Parliament itself, we wrote into the European Union act 2011 in Article | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
18 a section that said that this principle was clear, that European | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
law has direct effect in the United Kingdom only because of Acts of | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
Parliament. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
yesterday, if there is more we can do to make that principle clear we | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
would be keen to do that. It's open to Parliament too to pass laws, to | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
rescind the European communities act 1972, to end Britain's Amr Shabana | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
the European Union. If ultimate sovereignty did not continue to lie | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
here, there would be little purpose in us having this national debate | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
about a referendum on British membership at all. I want also just | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
worry briefly to say to my honourable friend the member for | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
South Dorset that he is right, that standing alone in 1940 should | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
continue to be a source of pride and inspiration to everyone in this | :55:34. | :55:35. | |
country from whichever political family they happen to come, but | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
don't let us forget that that was never a situation that this country | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
or Winston Churchill sought. It was one forced upon us by defeat and | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
only a few days or weeks before the Churchill speech about fighting on | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
alone, he had gone to France and offered France is a political union | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
with the United Kingdom in order to try to maintain the struggle against | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
Nazism. If we look back at our great history, we can see how leaders like | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
Marlborough, Pitt, Wellington, Disraeli sought to advance the | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
interests of the United Kingdom, of the British people, through building | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
coalitions of allies and of support amongst other nations on the | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
European continent. My honourable friend will forgive me but I have a | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
very limited time and many colleagues have spoken and I want to | :56:40. | :56:41. | |
respond on the half of the Government. As a number of | :56:42. | :56:49. | |
honourable members have said, there is concern about this question of | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
ever closer union, about Britain being drawn against its will into a | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
closer political European Union. I would say that there are a number of | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
clear safeguards against that. First, as the honourable member for | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
Luton North pointed out, we remain opted out of such things as the | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
single currency. We can decide for ourselves whether to participate in | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
individual justice and human rights measures. There are issues such as | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
taxation and foreign and security policy where the national right of | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
veto continues. And we wrote into the 2011 European act that a | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
referendum of the British people would be needed before this or any | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
future Government could sign up to treaty changes that transferred new | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
competencies and powers from this country to Brussels, to the European | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
institutions. That referendum also applies to any measure that moves | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
the power to take decisions at European level from unanimity with | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
the national veto to majority voting. Fourth, what the draft | :57:58. | :58:07. | |
document from President Task is explicitly recognised is that there | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
should be different levels of integration of different member | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
states and that the language in the preamble to the treaty about ever | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
closer union does not compel all member states to aim for a common | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
destination. The fact that this is a draft destination by the European | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
Council is significant because the treaty itself says it is for the | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
European Council to set the strategic political direction of the | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
EU as a whole. We need to recognise in this house that there are other | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
European countries for whom the objective of ever closer union may | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
be welcome and in line with their national interests. I talk to | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
ministers from the Baltic states who say to me that when you have been | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
through their experience of being fought over by Soviet communism and | :58:57. | :59:03. | |
Nazism, when you've lost perhaps a quarter of your population to those | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
tyrannies and to warfare, when you've then lived under Soviet rule | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
for half a century and you get back your independence and your | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
democracy, you grab any bit of European integration that is going | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
because you want that appalling and tragic history not to repeat itself | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
in the future. So we should respect their wish for closer political | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
union in return for then respecting our clear wish to remain outside | :59:30. | :59:37. | |
such a process. My honourable friend asked whether we would invent the EU | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
today. I say very plainly if we were starting from scratch I would not | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
start with the Treaty of Lisbon, but we are where we are. The debate both | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
in this place and in the country, in assessing both the results of the | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
Prime Minister's renegotiation and the wider issues at stake should be | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
whether the interests of the British people we represent, their security | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
and prosperity and hopes and ambitions for their children are | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
better served by remaining in a European Union, a union I hope | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
successfully reformed but which will still not be perfect, or leaving and | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
then attempting, from a new start from the outside, de nouveau, to | :00:17. | :00:26. | |
secure some kind of arrangement with those countries. That is the context | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
we can address some of the specific issues raised in this debate. If we | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
just take trade, because a number of honourable members have mentioned | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
that, outside the European Union, we would have been theoretical freedom | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
to negotiate free-trade agreements on our own behalf, but it is not | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
just a matter of speculation, it is what leading trading nations around | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
the world say to us, that they are much more ready to negotiate trade | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
deals with a European market of 500 million people with all the | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
leveraged that that gives us as a player in that single market than | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
they would be to negotiate with even a large European country on its own. | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
I apologise to my honourable friend but time is very limited. The | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
reality is that the World Trade Organisation and other international | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
organisations are largely directed by blocks of countries and by the | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
very large nations such as China and the United States. I believe the | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
interest is of the British people are better served not simply by | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
having a different flag and nameplate on the table but by | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
working to play a leading role in shaping the position of the world's | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
biggest and wealthiest trading block, using its leveraged to | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
advance our national interests and winning new opportunities for both | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
businesses and consumers in this country. And I am disappointed by | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
the pessimism of some honourable members. Look at what we have | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
achieved through positive British action at European level. It was | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
Margaret Thatcher who built the single European market that has made | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
possible, for example, affordable aviation to ordinary British | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
families in every part of this country. It was Margaret Thatcher | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
and John Major and Labour's Prime Minister 's too who made possible | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
the entrenchment of democracy, the rule of law and human rights in | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
countries of Central Europe where those things were crushed for most | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
of the 20th century and we did that by support for the large project. In | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
view now of the work the Home Secretary is leading to strengthen | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
cooperation against terrorism and organised crime, that is doing more | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
to help our security and defend the safety of the British people than | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
unilateral action by ourselves would be able to achieve. So I want to see | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
us in a reformed European Union in the single market playing a leading | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
role in making a safer and more prosperous Britain and a safer and | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
more prosperous Europe in the things that matter to us and benefit as out | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
of ever closer political union, out of the Euro European army and | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
Schengen, there is a real prize we have available to us and that is why | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
I'm supporting so enthusiastically the work that the Prime Minister in | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
this country's Prime Minister, is doing physical or that future for | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
the United Kingdom, a successful and reformed European Union. The | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
honourable gentleman has a couple of minutes in which to wind up the | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
debate. Mr Speaker, many thanks for remaining with us during the course | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
of this debate. I suggest we approach a seminal point, Mr | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
Speaker, in our history. In choosing whether or not to remain inside the | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
EU and continue down this road of ever closer union at the expense of | :03:55. | :04:04. | |
our sovereignty ought to vote to remain in or out of the EU and | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
regain the ability to have our say on our borders and the extent of | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
business regulation. The fact that number ten seems to be talking now | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
about eight sovereignty bill, I think that clearly illustrates that | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
the Government's so-called red class system or watered down if you like | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
washed-up lottery ticket and the emergency brake, controlled by an EU | :04:30. | :04:40. | |
backed -- back-seat driver, is unravelling as we speak. Such | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
measures will not stop us actually being drawn into ever close union | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
with the EU, should we remain, and certainly will not restore our | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty. British people want to be represented by | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
their MPs, not gobbled up by the EU. Sovereignty is ours to cherish, not | :05:02. | :05:10. | |
to sacrifice. I'm afraid, Minister, the Government has been unable to | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
answer our questions and therefore, Mr Speaker, I intend pressing the | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
motion, a motion which clearly says that the Government's EU | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
renegotiations must encompass Parliament's ability to stop any | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
unwanted legislation taxes or regulation to press that motion to a | :05:26. | :05:27. | |
vote. Ight honourable gentleman | :05:28. | :05:36. | |
tuberculosis Oared, the question is as on the order paper, as many say | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
aye. On the contrary, no. No! No! No! I think that the a | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
yeshgs s have it. Division in the lobby! | :05:50. | :08:34. | |
The question is on the order paper. The no, sir have it. | :08:35. | :08:49. | |
-- the nos have it. I have called the result! Dear, oh, | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
dear. There were no tellers. Division off! Sorry. | :08:57. | :09:18. | |
Honourable members were locked in a room. Good heavens. I was ready to | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
sit in for the division. But a division must take place in an | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
orderly way or not at all. Order. | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
The junior minister is engaged in a spirited discussion with the | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
honourable gentleman. But we are to move to the debate. The minister may | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
care to per ambulate towards the Treasury bench from where he will in | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
due course speak. I am providing useful choreography, with which a | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
nod of the head he can confirm if he is appreciative. | :10:01. | :10:09. | |
We now come to the back bench debate entitled: Conflict in Yemen. Kirsty | :10:10. | :10:11. | |
Oswald. . I beg to move that the House | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
considered conflict in Yemen. I am pleased to have secured the debate, | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
and I am grateful to them to allow the debate to take place. As we meet | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
we do so against a background of continuing conflict and death. | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
Recently a cement factory in the city of am ran. This resulted in | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
death, including inside cars parked nearby, shopkeepers and residents | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
going about their daily business it is a pressing issue. The | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
humanitarian situation in Yemen is dreadful and getting worse. Recent | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
estimates by the United Nations suggest that over 8,000 people have | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
been killed in Yemen since March. At least 1,500 children are reported to | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
have died. The civilian infrastructure has been destroyed by | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
air strikes and fighting on the ground, cutting families off from | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
services, including clean water, sanitation and medical treatment. My | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
colleague has raised in the House, the incident in which a Medecins | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Sans Frontieres hospital in sadya, in Yemen, was hit by missile. The | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
third to come under attack in recent months. People are dying there from | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
what should be preventible diseases as there are no hospital, medical | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
supplies or infrastructure to prevent this. With the hospitals | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
being reduced to rubble, thousands of children are at risk of | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
malnutrition, Save the Children reported a 150% increase in cases of | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
severe, acute malnutrition amongst children. Some of their facilities, | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
which should be safe havens have also been destroyed. It is no | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
surprise to see Medecins Sans Frontieres declare that the conflict | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
in Yemen has been played out with total disregard for the rules of | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
war. The UK Government has been aware of the evidence of mounting | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
deaths and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. Am nest | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
international raised concerns of air strikes, targeting heavily populated | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
civilian areas. This institutes a violation of international law. The | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
number of civilians dying are stark. According to the UN, 73% of child | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
deaths and injuries in the second quarter of 2015, were attributable | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
to air strikes by the Saudi led coalition. 60% of all deaths and | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
injuries, arib constituted to air launch devices. And an increasing | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
number of children are pressed into military services. Placed in | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
increasingly dangerous and vulnerable situations. Over 3 | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
million children are now out of school. Education has fallen by the | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
wayside. Setting the children of Yemen up to be another lost | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
generation with significant long-term consequences for the | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
country and the region. So, more than 21.2 million people in | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
Yemen, including 10 million children, are now in need of | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
humanitarian need. This figure gives Yemen the distinction of being the | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
country with the highest number of people in human an tearian need in | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
the world. Yemen relies on imported food, so the blockade has had an | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
extremely damaging impact. There is a high level of food insecurity and | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
according to the UN, 14.4 million people of Yemen are in the | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
situation. That means that one in two people are not getting enough to | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
eat. One distressing conflict is the reemergence of the siege as a weapon | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
of war. When I raised the issue in context to Syria, I was pleased to | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
hear that the imposition of starvation and deliberate | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
destruction of daily lives for the civilians may be a matter for the | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
International Criminal Court. This must be stopped it is important that | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
support is given, for people to enter the country and safely | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
distribute needs to the population. Parties to the conflict must be | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
pressed to allow this access. Unless we address the issue, we | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
should not be surprised to see outflows of refugees from countries | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
bombed back into the dark ages. Such an Jowell is what die etch earn is | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
working towards. Those claiming the status of legitimate government | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
should not continue to act like medieval warlords and expect the | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
backing of the international community it is important to | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
acknowledge the brave and tireless work of NGOs working in the area, | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
despite the danger that they face in this volatile situation. The conduct | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
of the war leaves NGOs in the position of putting workers into the | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
peril, raising questions as to how long they could be continued to be | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
prepared to do so and the consequences for the Yemeni | :15:27. | :15:28. | |
civilians if they decide they cannot continue. So the UK Government must | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
listen to the organisations and look at the evidence. Acknowledge what is | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
happening here and the scale of the issue. It is vital that they put | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
pressure on all parties. Allow the humanitarian agencies a | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
safe space to operate in. Also, it welcome the role for the UK | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
department of international development in supporting the Yemeni | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
population. Their response has been flexible and responsive and appears | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
to provide a way forward, were it not for the astonishing mismatch | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
between their welcome work and the UK Government's dealing with the | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
Saudi Arabia, which impact on the life of the #350e78 of Yemen and the | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
prospects for the country. World attention on difficulties in the | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
Middle East is focussed on the conflicts of Syria and Iraq. Sadly, | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
the catastrophic situation in Yemen is often overlooked. Yemen's status | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
is only a minor oil producer, not a member of OPEC, making the question | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
less likely to feature on the western news radar. Red Cross | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
describes Yemen as a world's forgotten conflict zone. With the | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
world looking elsewhere, while economic power plays in the Middle | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
East cause chaos and destruction. But the UK cannot continue to sit on | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
the fence. It must accept that the foreign policy then would be morally | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
brunt and the action and lack of action is knowing and deliberate. | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Yemen is facing one of the worst of the humanitarian crisis in the | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
world. Meanwhile, the daily and the use of explosive weapons in | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
populated areas continues, raining death on the civilian population. | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
Many of these civilians have been killed by air strikes conducted by | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
the Saudi Arabia Air Force using British-built planes with pilots | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
trained by British instructors including as RAF Lossiemouth in | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
Scotland, dropping British-made bombs, with operations conducted and | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
co-ordinated by Saudi Arabia in the presence of British military | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
advisers. The UK Government's own figures from the department of | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
business, invasion and skills show in the third quarter of last year, | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
the UK granted over ?1 billion of arms export licences for Saudi | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
Arabia, despite evidence of human rights violations committed by the | :18:00. | :18:10. | |
Saudi led... Will my honourable friend agree that if there are | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
breaches that this is seeing that the UK Government should | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
investigate? I agree. I thank you for the intervention. | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
It is clear to me that through the substabile support for Saudi Arabia, | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
the UK Government is exacerbating the desperate plight of the people | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
of Yemen. Since the conflict reignited in March there are reports | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
of serious violations of the laws of war on all sides. Human Rights Watch | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
has documented a number of INAUDIBLE | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
In all of the cases, INAUDIBLE | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
It was considered that the attack failed to distinguish civilians from | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
the military objective, so questions to be answered around the UK | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
supplying weapons to Saudi Arabia in support of its military intervention | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
and the bombing campaign of Yemen. It is important to take stock, as | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
not only Yemen but across the region, the UK has a history of | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
subupgating the interests of the population in the region to being | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
bit-players with our powers and bit-players with our powers and | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
while having significant relationships with the rulers in the | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
region, the UK is perhaps unsurprisingly mistrusted for its | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
failure to deliver on promises. As was said that the wave of Arabic | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
output rising from 2011 is this generation's attempt of changing the | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
consequences of the state order that began in the aftermath of the First | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
World War. An interesting speech. | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
I think that the World Food Programme made the point that both | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
sides in the conflict are impeding the distribution of food aid to the | :19:56. | :19:57. | |
millions that need it, not just one. It is an important point, we need to | :19:58. | :20:08. | |
make sure that everybody engaged in the region operates together to make | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
sure that people get the food and support they need. This new | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
generation in Yemen are searching for a better future. They have been | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
abandoned to conflict, influenced by others, none of whom have the needs | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
of the people in mind. The minister said last week that Saudi Arabia | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
should do a better job of trumpeting its human rights successors. What an | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
astonishing statement. We can safely issue that the civilians in Yemen | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
suffering as a result of this onslaught will feel they have no | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
human rights whatsoever. Human rights and those of the people of | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
Yemen did not loom large in relation to that statement. But they must. | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
The UK Government must admit it has been front and centre of the Saudi | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
bombing campaign in Yemen and they are putting profit before basic | :21:00. | :21:01. | |
human rights. I agree, she is making a powerful | :21:02. | :21:12. | |
and pertinent speech, but I ask her to be cautious in what she says | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
about quoting from the independent, that coos's that used Google | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
translate to translate a press release, a statement that was made, | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
which did not accurately present the meeting I had in Saudi Arabia. I | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
made the point last week in the urgent question and I repeated again | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
today, I would never use such language. I make it clear that Saudi | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
Arabia has a long way to go, we want to work with them to improve their | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
human rights. I echo the sentiments that there is a significant way to | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
go in relation to human rights, which is of great concern. I was in | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
the chamber last week I am pleased I can recall the sentiment if not the | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
words of what he said. I will be interested to look back at the | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
discussion, because the sentiment was clear. The UK Government must | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
consider the situation in Yemen fully, it is no doubt a challenging | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
situation, but this does not mean we should disregard the evidence coming | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
from the area or the realities and scale of the problem. A panel of | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
experts has documented 119 coalition sorties ready to violations of | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
international law, including the targeting of civilians. It is | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
notable the international of element committee of this house has noted | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
that whilst the report was leaked, it did not consider that this | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
affected the credibility of what it was asserting. I ask the Minister... | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
Would she not agree with the representative of Unicef who | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
appeared before the committee who said, I don't believe there is | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
deliberate targeting of civilians? It is important that we hear from as | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
many organisations as possible. In the research I have conducted, there | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
have been many organisations who assert that there has been targeting | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
of civilians, which gives us all the more reason to have a proper | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
investigation into the situation. I must ask the Minister he can tell me | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
if he doubts the credibility of the panel of experts and if so, why. As | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
for other parts of the region, we must facilitate and support the | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
peace process. We should be encouraged that parties have | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
previously indicated they may come to the table, but it is disappointed | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
because have been delayed. One issue which we need to address, and this | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
can only come with good first-hand information, just how much control | :23:39. | :23:40. | |
those who claim leadership exercise over the myriad groups in conflict. | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
The leaders of Al-Qaeda and ices have no interest in peace, we must | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
not let them scupper every peace effort by destroying a tense to | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
bring about ceasefire. We know that across Yemen Chaos reigns, disparate | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
forces and agendas clash and bombs rained down from the air. Destroying | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
infrastructure, homes and lives. Would she accept that the conflict | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
in Yemen is over spilling over the borders from Yemen and out with? | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
Conflict in any area is a cause for concern. We must focus on this | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
conflict in this debate and where the responsibilities of the UK | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
Government life. It is inconsistent of the UK Government to sell weapons | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
to be used to bomb the country does spare the reins. The Minister and | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
the UK Government needs to come clean on the specific involvement of | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
the UK military in arms sales, training and logistics in relation | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
to Saudi Arabia in Yemen. I don't think the conflict by proxy is the | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
party of the party opposite, but the way things are working, it is | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
difficult to see how that is not the case. The Belgian Government has | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
felt able to suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia, but we continue to | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
ignore the human rights issues and in relation to Yemen and sell arms. | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
The export controls committee delayed in setting up has had an | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
influence. This should have been established months ago. The | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
continued pressure from the onward member has no doubt highlighted the | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
situation. I would ask the Minister, what cost has the delay made for | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
human life? I agree with the chair of the international of element | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
committee in his letter that it is a long-standing crucible of the rule | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
of law. It is disappointing that the UK Government did not take the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
opportunity last September to endorse the Government of the | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
Netherlands' proposal for an international fact-finding mission | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
to investigate the conduct of war. This would have provided the | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
information that the Minister seeks. He said weapon systems -- if weapon | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
systems were abused, there would be action in terms of export licensing. | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
It is time now for the UK Government to stop running away from scrutiny, | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
to take urgent action to suspend all sales of arms to Saudi Arabia until | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
it can demonstrate they are not being used against civilians and not | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
in violation of international law. The UK must alleviate this crisis | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
and we must do more to ensure there is access to areas where people are | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
besieged and starving, and every effort must be made to get the peace | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
talks started. We cannot stand by longer. It is time for the UK | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
Government to step up and do the right thing. The question is as on | :26:39. | :26:48. | |
the order paper. I congratulate, although I don't agree with every | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
word, the Honourable member on her securing this very important debate. | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
On the question of scrutiny, I believe the British Government is | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
more than open to being scrutinised, as the presence of this Minister on | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
the Marisa occasions in this house answering questions and debate about | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
Yemen is testament to. It is with some sadness that I speak today. The | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
country is close to my heart. It is suffering the horrors of conflict, | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
as so eloquently set out. The current war has been described as | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
the forgotten war. In a recent debate by the Honourable member for | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
Hammersmith. I agree with him on a few things, but I agree with him on | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
that. It remains the forgotten war today. Despite the work of many NGOs | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
and members of this house. And particularly the work of the right | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
Honourable gentleman the member for Leicester East for all he has done | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
to ensure this has remained cut isn't of what is happening. | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
Although, he and others have sought to highlight the joys of that | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
country and why it is such a wonderful country are something I | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
know is also very close to the heart of my honourable friend who knows | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
the country very well. As well as being vice-chairman of the Yemen | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
all-party parliament group, I have had the pleasure and privilege of | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
visiting and travelling around Yemen on a number of occasions. And seeing | :28:19. | :28:28. | |
such wonderful places. My visits, I fear, will not be repeated for some | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
years yet, but they gave me an insight into this complexity and | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
land and its generous, hospitable and loyal people. I am proud to | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
declare myself a friend of Yemen and the people of Yemen. The UK has a | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
long-standing friendship and historic and trusting relationship | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
with Yemen. All of which makes it sad to see what has become of that | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
country. The former president of Yemen described role in the country | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
as akin to dancing on the heads of snakes, so complex are its history, | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
religious, tribal and political make-up. Yemen faces many | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
challenges, it is the most populous country in the Arabian plenty left, | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
copulation of almost 30 million, but it is also one of the poorest, | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
annual income per head of less than $1500. It does not have the | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
advantage, although possibly these days they'd initially advantage, of | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
oil revenues to swell its coffers. It has historically relied heavily | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
on imports of food goods and diesel fuel to function. All of this | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
compounded by the challenges of a burgeoning young male population | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
with limited economic prospects. Overlay this with a fragile security | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
situation and a fractured policy, even before the current conflict, | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
Yemen was always in a precarious situation. It has always been more | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
of a loose confederation of tribes than a model state with strong | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
central control. Its location has seen it for centuries the centre of | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
proxy wars waged by other powers. Today, it finds itself in that | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
situation again, with and Iranians backed militia fighting a Saudi led | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
coalition supporting a Government of the president, with regional and | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
dynastic geopolitics playing their part in the conflict. The conflict | :30:32. | :30:39. | |
and its consequences are clear and stock, and I would reiterate a view | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
of the comments made by the Honourable Lady, over 20 million | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
people at risk of starvation and humanitarian disaster. 82% in need | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
of some assistance. In any conflict situation, it is often the children | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
who are the most innocent but also the most likely victims of that | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
conflict. In seeking to play our part in helping in this conflict, I | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
see three major component parts. The most immediate is humanitarian | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
relief. As the Oxfam witness said, at a recent hearing, the support has | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
been really profound and fundamental. UK aid already totals | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
over ?85 million. Its scale only constrained by the situation on the | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
ground and the ability to do is to beat it safely. The UK's | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
contribution in respect of aid is, I believe, not in doubt, I hope the | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
Minister will convey to his counterparts the expressions of | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
support both for myself and the Honourable Lady for the work that | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
they have done. But I sincerely hope it will continue to be built upon, | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
building an international coalition of aid givers, and as we look across | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
Parliament Square today and we see the focus on the situation in Syria, | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
we put in all the effort we can to ensure that the situation in Yemen | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
receive the same priority. Beyond food and medicine, getting fuel and | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
water in remains one of the biggest challenges, with ports barely | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
functioning, and when they do, ships waiting offshore for weeks, | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
sometimes before being able to unload. For a country that was | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
already reliant on imports for its food and fuel, this is a disaster. | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
Getting supplies in and around is vital, and I hope that in his | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
remarks later the minister can update the house on where he | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
believes we are with that work. While the humanitarian response and | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
UK's continued role is vital, this is to a large degree tackling the | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
consequences rather than the causes of the problem. We must strive to do | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
both. The Minister has rightly made clear in statements in front of the | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
committee the UK is not a party to this conflict. He is right. The UK | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
is not an active participant in the coalition, although we do support | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
it, is rejecting the support for the legitimate Government of Yemen. We | :33:21. | :33:33. | |
must make it clear that it is not helpful to focus only on one party | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
to this conflict as being responsible for the consequences of | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
that conflict, the civilian casualties. Both sides bear a | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
response ability for the consequences of this conflict. | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
Would he also said that part of this is the fact that there is a UN | :33:53. | :34:02. | |
resolution that the coalition states involved are seeking to enforce? He | :34:03. | :34:10. | |
is right and displays his typical erudition and eloquence on this | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
topic, as on so many others. It is vital that renewed impetus is given | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
to peace talks to find a lasting settlement to bring stability to the | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
country. I pay tribute both to my right honourable friend and to this | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
Minister for their work on this, and I do have to say, as I alluded to | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
earlier, Yemen could have in the British Government no greater friend | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
than this Minister, who cares passionately and personally for the | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
plight of the people of Yemen and is working day and night to do what he | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
can to alleviate that plight and bring peace to that country. | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
Ing the distribution of food aid to the millions that need it, not just | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
one. A peace set thement imposed from | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
outside, and does not recognise or heed voices in Yemen is doomed to | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
fail. In the UK we can play a significant role in bringing sides | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
together but any settlement, in order to bring lasting peace, must | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
emerge from within Yemen itself. I am reminded of what I believe is an | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
old Arab proverb, me and my brother against my cousin but me and my | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
cousin against a stranger - peace must come from within the country | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
itself. The final element in the long-term, | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
must be support in a clear commitment in a prolonged period to | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
rebuild the shattered country and its infrastructure, primarily fuel | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
and water infrastructure. I would before condeluding, turn brief to -- | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
concluding, turn briefly to the need for any suspected or reported abuse | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
of human rights or civilian casualties to be investigated. The | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
minister has been clear on this fact that where allegations are made of | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
civilian casualties or the consequences of the actions, he and | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
others have raised those with the Saudi Arabian government as | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
appropriate. I would also say that I do believe | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
that what was agreed in September at the Human Rights Council, by all of | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
those there, represents the right way forward, namely that the High | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
Commissioner for human rights, working with the legitimate | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
government for Yemen, important in terms of access, which will | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
investigate any appropriate allegations. That is due in March. | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
That agreement was built on a consensus, to represent a right way | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
forward it is confusing through the fog of war, I belief that the title | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
of a well-read piece of research by my honourable friend in respect of | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
the legal challenges -- challenges faced by the armed force, and what | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
was highlighted was competing versions of events and what actually | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
happened, therefore I recommend the House to support what was agreed in | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
the #r0r7 report in September. So, in concluding, I would say that it | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
is time, as the honourable lady said, that the international | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
community gave the crisis and the conflict in Yemen the focus and the | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
priority it deserves, rightly, as we do with that in Syria. I know that | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
the British government is doing its bit. I hope that the debate helps to | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
raise the professional of the forgotten war and that peace is soon | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
a reality for all of the people of that suffering country. Thank you, | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker. It will be obvious to the House we | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
have little time for the debate and many of you wish to speak. I would | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
like to try without a formal time limit, if people could possibly keep | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
to five or six minute, then all will be able to get in. If not, we will | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
have a time limit of three or two minute, whatever is necessary later | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
in the debate. Mr Keith Vaz. | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker it is a great pleasure to follow the | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
Honourable Member for Charnwood. We share a border and now a cause. It | :38:26. | :38:33. | |
is good to see someone elected only last year, becoming passionate about | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
an overseas country and so interested in it. I am glad to see | :38:39. | :38:47. | |
this member as a strong and effective officer, vice-chair awl of | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
the Yemeni group. I speak not just as a Yemeni by birth but as the | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
chair of the All Party group of the last 20 years. I must rival | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
President Salah with the years spent in office, not a good comparison, I | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
know. But it has been a huge honour to serve in that capacity. And to be | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
joined by the honourable lady for Walsall South, and the honourable | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
lady for Portsmouth south, another Yemeni, we now have three Yemenis | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
sitting in the House of Commons. This should help everyone understand | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
for us it is not just business it is very personal it matters greatly. My | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
fondest memories of my childhood were watching the boats coming in, | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
to enter the Suez Canal, going past Steamer Point. And indeed, only | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
Leicester beating Liverpool last Tuesday could match that kind of | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
warm feeling that I felt as a child. But, sadly, those wonderful memories | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
of our childhood have gone. We face in Yemen this catastrophe. This | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
roll-call of catastrophe. Set out so eloquently by the honourable lady | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
for East Renfrewshire and the honourable gentleman for Charnwood | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
and the chairman of the international dwoement select | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
committee will speak with more horrifying statistics to hear and | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
listen to, and we cannot understand 21 million people in need of aid. | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
Millions of children without food. People starving to death. We hear it | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
as if it is a piece of fiction but it is fact, Madame Deputy Speaker. I | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
want to also thank the honourable member for East Worthing and | :40:43. | :40:50. | |
shoreham. Who came with me on one of the last-all Group Party visits to | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
Yemen. We were worried, he was told to stay in the hotel and as anyone | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
knows, especially, Prime Ministers and Secretary of States, as he | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
served in the government, you cannot tell this ehonourable member what to | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
do. I got up and found he was missing. We thought that he had been | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
kidnapped but he was out, taking photographs of the country. He fell | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
in love with that country, as everyone falls in love with Yemen | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
when they visit. But what is this country that we have now? We have | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
this country in poverty. We have this country that is facing the | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
possibility of a Civil War. We have a country which is being fought over | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
by other foreign powers. This is not because the people of Yemen want to | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
see this conflict. This conflict arises because those from outside | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
want to topple the democraticallially elected | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
government of President Hadi. Because of this, you have outside | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
intervention. I have to say, I will give way... I | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
am touched by the care he shows for my welfare but it was indeed an | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
extraordinary trip we made to that country. During that trip, talking | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
about children, it was at the time that the British Council were | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
matches 1,000 schools in the Middle East with schools here and we were | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
able to twin a school in worthing with a decide in Aden. Does he agree | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
one of the biggest tragedies, as well as the killings and the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
injuries is that about half of the children in Yemen are not in | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
education. When so much is being done to make sure that Syrian | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
children have some continuity of education, the situation in Yemen is | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
so much worse. If we don't have the future in mind for those children, | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
the future of the whole country is perilous. | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
The honourable gentleman is right. He is the House's expert on | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
education. When he talks of the need for education, he is absolutely | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
right. These are life chances. 1,500 have died but 9. 9 million are in | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
poverty. The fact that they cannot go to school will mean for the rest | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
of their lives. Childhood is something that passes so quickly. | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
They will not have the advantages of education. We do need to concentrate | :43:16. | :43:24. | |
on that. But I join with the honourable member from Charnwood, in | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
praising the ministers, and we don't do this often but he is someone who | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
deeply cares about the situation in Yemen. Whenever approached, whenever | :43:34. | :43:43. | |
the All Party group makes suggestions and whenever he makes | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
suggestions, the minister responds. I think if he had half a chance to | :43:49. | :43:56. | |
be honour a plane via Dubai to Sana'a International Airport, to try | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
to stitch together the patchwork that exists in terms of | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
international diplomacy, I know a lot of mention has been made, and | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
rightly so by the honourable lady for East Renfrewshire, and other | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
members of her party about the involvement of Saudi Arabia. It is | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
important that Saudi Arabia has been involved. Had they not been, the | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
country would have been overrun and President Hadi been taken over. But | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
we need to pause. There has to be a ceasefire. The air strikes have to | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
stop. We have to find other methods of trying to secure the country | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
without the kinds of screens that we have seen where civilians may not | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
have been targeted but at the end process, that they have died. So we | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
have to make sure that we work with the Saudis. They are the regional | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
power. We cannot do it without them. To make sure that we get peace in | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
Yemen we need them. They have a big responsibility to ensure it happens. | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
If Yemen falls it will affect every other country in the Middle East and | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
as the Prime Minister has said on numerous occasions, the front line | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
in Sana'a is the front line in London. Many of the terrorist plots | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
we have seen developing, that I see chairing the Home Affairs Select | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
Committee, come from people plotting in places like Yemen and trying to | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
destroy other countries because of what they do there. Indeed, the | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Paris bombers, many were involved in some way in what was happening in | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
Yemen. I think that one of them was trained there. This is not about a | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
country far away that we don't need to care about, it is a country that | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
matters to our future, not just as a humanairian crisis but as it is owe | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
curing and how it will affect Britain and the rest of Europe. I | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
want to thank the minister and the right honourable member for New | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
West, for what he has said. What has been continued is what was | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
started by the previous government. There is no party politics in this, | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
this is the House United. As the previous Prime Ministers, both | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, in ensuring that they focussed on Yemen | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
and the current Prime Minister is focussed on it. I have written to | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
him. His responses are detailed and relevant. He does want to ensure | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
that peace is restored. So we are all on the same side. I have a too | :46:35. | :46:44. | |
asks. Firstly, that he also supports the | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
ceasefire, to intensify the support of the UN to try to bring peace | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
there. To ensure that we continue the dialogue with all sides and | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
especially with Saudi Arabia. I know that there has been a lot of | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
criticism of the use of British weapons by the Saudis in this | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
conflict. Of course that will go on. We live in a parliamentary | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
documentary, we have to raise the issues, and the government has to | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
respond as it has done. We have to work with the Saudis and the Omanis, | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
they have not been mentioned enough. But the Sultan in particular has a | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
big role to play. You look at that part of the world and think here is | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
part of the Arab world where there is a border and to the north there | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
is Oman peaceful as you can have a country, and below that, south of | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
the border, there is the turmoil in Yemen. The Omanis need to be | :47:37. | :47:47. | |
involved as does the GC skrvment -- GCCs. And to remind him, I know it | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
is not his job to chase up debts but the great donor conference we had, | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
and billions were pledged. But actually very few have paid up. I | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
think we should go back to the countries that pledged and make sure | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
that something is done. And let me end by saying we still have a lot of | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
friends in Yemen. The families of Yemeni ambassadors who came here, my | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
two children were friendly with one of the son's of the ambassadors, | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
whose name was Salman. The last time he was here he had come to watch a | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
football match with my young son as he then was. I think of this bright | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
young boy and his sisters who came to this country for a short time as | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
the children of diplomats, who we formed a bond of friendship with, to | :48:39. | :48:46. | |
think of them in a house in Sana'a, without electricity, without | :48:47. | :48:48. | |
schooling, without food, is terrible. | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
I hope that if Salman is listening to the debate or hears it in some | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
way, that he will contact us so thankfully we know that he and his | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
family are safe. My worry is that the country, Yemen, it is bleeding | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
to death. Unless we are prepared to stop the bleeding, then the | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
consequences are horrendous. And from the bottom of my heart, I | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
beg the minister to continue to do what he is doing, to make sure this | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
is centre-stage to. Thank parliamentary colleagues who have so | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
much on their agenda, to have come in such numbers from all over the | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
country to think about Yemen and to talk about Yemen. To say my | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
honourable friend who has just honourable friend who has just | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
joined the frontbench, to thank him for coming. I hope he makes a | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
propriority, to make it a priority to not to forget. | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
Yemen matters to us, let us not allow Yemen to bleed to death. I do | :49:51. | :50:01. | |
not criticise the Honourable gentleman, but we will now have a | :50:02. | :50:03. | |
formal time-limit of five minutes. I will bear in mind the time-limit. | :50:04. | :50:17. | |
It is a great pleasure to follow the thoughtful speech from the | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
Honourable member for Leicester East. And the passion he brings, | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
given his own background. The first point for me is, why does this | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
conflict matters to us in the UK? Why have I taken the time to come | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
here? There are three reasons. The geographical location. You go back | :50:38. | :50:48. | |
to Victorian times, Suez was one of the key links for trade of the | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
British Empire, it is still one of the seven key maritime pinch points, | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
and so stability matters to global trade. There is a moral duty, given | :50:57. | :51:05. | |
that Aiden was a British protectorate, for still to keep an | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
interest in the area and how it has developed. We have played quite a | :51:10. | :51:16. | |
tip the control is a country over the last 100 years in shaping how | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
the modern and insular looks's peninsular looks. Problems do not | :51:22. | :51:28. | |
stay within one nation's orders, we have seen that dramatically | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
illustrated in Syria, with the refugee crisis. The UN warned that | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
40 million are what they term food insecure. An interesting way of | :51:37. | :51:43. | |
describing people potentially who may actually starve if they do not | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
get assistance. Finally, humanitarian concern. My predecessor | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
in Torbay brought to my attention today some of the heartbreaking | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
images coming out of the impact of conflict, which remind me of the | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
statement that it is just as well that war is so terrible, or we would | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
grow too fond of it. It is also worth remembering that there is a | :52:10. | :52:17. | |
threat posed to security. In the middle of the battle between the | :52:18. | :52:27. | |
forces of Al-Qaeda. Both sides are opposed to Al-Qaeda in the Arabian | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
Peninsula, which has staged numerous deadly attacks. Western intelligence | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
agencies consider Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula the most dangerous | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
branch of Al-Qaeda, because of its technical expertise and global | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
reach. Would he agree that it is the regional instability that makes the | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
issue even more urgent and the need to find a peaceful solution to the | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
problem so we don't create a bigger vacuum into which organisations like | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
Al-Qaeda can move? I completely agree, where you have spaces of | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
conflict, it is work no Government or system of law and order exist | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
that these groups can fester and grow and develop their own | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
abilities. We saw it in Afghanistan during the time of the Taliban, we | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
Sea Eagle interior, where a civil war has allowed Daesh to grow and | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
build its capabilities. It is having these spaces where no Government | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
exists, as we have in Yemen and in other parts of the Middle East, that | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
creates that danger to our security and global security, which we cannot | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
just ignore. The US have been carrying out operations, including | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
drone strikes, in Yemen, but the advance of the rebels have seen the | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
American campaign scaled back. We find a situation where a quarrel | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
between two enemies of Al-Qaeda is making it easier for Al-Qaeda to | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
develop and become more of a threat. As we touched on, the prospect of | :54:05. | :54:15. | |
the fighting spilling over into neighbouring countries, not least | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
into Saudi territory, whilst we may all have our views in this chamber | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
about some of Saudi Arabia's appalling domestic policies, the | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
lack of religious freedom, the use of the death penalty in a way that | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
we find unacceptable in this country, we sometimes need to be | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
careful what we wish for, because some of the potential alternatives | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
are not a modern liberal Western democracy. When we look back to the | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
Arab Spring in 2011, many of us naively hoped it would be like the | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
1989 Velvet Revolution that swept through Eastern Europe, sweeping | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
away dictators and despots and replacing them with relatively | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
modern democracies. Many of us would say that some of the experiences of | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
some of the forces that have an unleashed since 2011 have not been | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
forces of freedom and tolerance, quite the opposite. It is right that | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
we do work with the Saudi Government and the wider coalition to try and | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
bring peace based on a United Nations resolution to Yemen. Whilst | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
we do engage with some support to the Saudi Armed Forces, I have to | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
say I would rather it is our forces who have human rights and | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
international law ingrained into their operation than perhaps some | :55:39. | :55:46. | |
other countries who may be providing support who only in the last 30 | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
years have their forces engaged in things we find unacceptable. We | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
cannot turn the blind eye. We see children being dragooned into | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
fighting for rebel groups and terror organisations, a 3-way war | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
threatening to spill over and threatening the security of some of | :56:07. | :56:08. | |
the key maritime routes and the stability of the wider region, we | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
can't ignore this. It is not just for the UK to do on its own, we need | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
to make sure laws apply, we need to make sure all parties to the | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
conflict respect the obligations they have. But ultimately, we are | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
working with our partners, we can bring peace, and I welcome this | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
debate. It is a pleasure to follow the rubble gentleman, I congratulate | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
the Honourable Lady for giving this -- bringing this debate before us. | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
The committee is undertaking an enquiry into the Yemen situation, we | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
heard evidence last week that was so powerful and convincing that the | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
humanitarian response, the excellent humanitarian response, is being | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
undermined by the wider Government approach, we felt compelled to write | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
this week to the Government, setting out our serious concerns, and I will | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
refer to them this afternoon. I begin by addressing the scale of the | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
humanitarian crisis, every Speaker has described the horror over 21 | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
million people in need of assistance, over 80% of the | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
population. Over 14 million struggling to find enough food, 2.5 | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
million displaced people are a devastating effect. Atrocities have | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
been committed by both sides in this conflict. We heard evidence that 60% | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
of the killings and maimings have been caused by the Saudi led | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
coalition and we heard evidence that over 700 children have been | :57:48. | :57:49. | |
recruited to armed groups and they have siege cities and denying access | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
for humanitarian aid and medicines to be siege populations. | :57:55. | :58:01. | |
As one of the members who was born there, I was concerned that a church | :58:02. | :58:10. | |
that I used to worship in was hit, along with a hospital, but what | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
steps are being taken to make sure that aid is going to be allowed to | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
get through? The access to aid is very important. She is right, in | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
evidence from -- we were told that the welcome UK aid of 85 million | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
could have been more, but it is proportionate to what is capable of | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
being spent by our partners at the moment, even the difficulties of | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
access. She is right that that is one of the major considerations. Let | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
me address the issue of a need for an independent international enquiry | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
into alleged abuses of international humanitarian law. We received | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
overwhelming evidence that is contrary to the British -- position | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
the Government has taken. The UN expert panel report documenting 119 | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
alleged abuses, evidence from Amnesty International, human rights | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
watch and Medecins Sans Frontieres. We were told last week in other | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
contexts the Government will cite the reports of human rights watch | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
and amnesty, for example in Syria, Libya and Sudan, to support a | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
Government position, but here, they are referred to is not good enough | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
to be considered evidence compared with a reassurance from the Saudis. | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
One of the belligerents to the conflict that there are no | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
violations of international humanitarian law. It is true that a | :59:39. | :59:45. | |
resolution was agreed with the Human Rights Council, but the original | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
wording of the motion was a much stronger wording from the Government | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
of the Netherlands, and it is my view that the British Government | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
should have stood with our Dutch partners rather than standing with | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
Saudi Arabia in watering down the need for an independent enquiry into | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
what is happening. We don't have that independent enquiry. I urge the | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
Minister to reconsider the UK position so that we support a | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
genuinely independent UN led enquiry into these very serious allegations | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
of the violation of international humanitarian law. I wish to finish | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
about talking about the central issue of UK arms sales to Saudi | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Arabia. Where arms are being sold to a country that receives assistance, | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
they are consulted. Because Saudi Arabia is not such a country, they | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
are not even consulted on the question of arms sales, even though | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
the arms are being used in Yemen, which is a recipient of aid. The | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
scale of our sales to Saudi Arabia is eye watering. ?3 billion in six | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
months of last year, 40% of total UK arms sales for that period with 1 | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
billion in just three months on bombs. The Royal Saudi air force has | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
more UK planes than the Royal Air Force. The UK, European and | :01:07. | :01:14. | |
international law is clear, licenses cannot be granted if there is a | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
clear risk that they may be used in violations of international | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
humanitarian law. We have a very powerful legal opinion that the UK | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
has breached its obligations under international arms law. I must urge | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
the Government to think again on this central issue. As has been | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
said, the committee on arms export controls is being established and | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
will meet next week, this must be on the agenda. It is vital that we take | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
seriously our responsibilities under our own law as well as international | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
and European law in this respect. We met with the Yemen die spirit in | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
this country two weeks ago, their voices were very powerful on this | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
question. The strength of evidence is very strong, from the UN panel of | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
experts, the international humanitarian organisations that we | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
heard from last week, and from the Dyas Borough, that the UK should | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
support a truly independent enquiry into what is going on in and in the | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
meantime we should suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia. | :02:28. | :02:35. | |
I welcome this debate and I also welcome the International | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
Development Select Committee's enquiry. I am a member of that | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
committee. The suffering of the people of Yemen is acute and the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
world needs to know about it. That is why I welcome this debate and our | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
enquiry. I urge people who have knowledge and can provide | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
contemporaneous current accounts of the situation in Yemen to contribute | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
to our enquiry. As the chairman of the committee has said, we received | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
some powerful accounts from a meeting with the diaspora a couple | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
of weeks ago. I applaud the Honourable member for his excellent | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
speech, I have just removed substantial part of mine! I will | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
reflect on some of the points which have been made during the debate. As | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
mentioned by several members, 21.2 million people are in need of | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
humanitarian assistance in Yemen, it is the country with the highest | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
number of people in humanitarian need in the world. This is a country | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
where 40% of the population are under 15 years old. The children | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
really are suffering very substantially. Since March 2015 | :04:01. | :04:09. | |
there have been 1012 grave violations against children | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
documented, the figure is now likely to be much higher, 41 schools have | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
been damaged, 61 hospitals, and over 700 children have been recruited or | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
used by armed groups. These youths joined the extremist groups simply | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
to feed their families. Not only 47% of children in Yemen out of school, | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
but as a professor from the diaspora told us, higher education is | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
affected. He taught in University which had 4000 students, there are | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
now just 400 left. The statistics will have a significant bearing on | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
the long-term Government of the country. | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
We were told that there is fever, a measles outbreak, that they fear | :04:59. | :05:07. | |
polio, the health facilities have been gutted and 2 million people | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
sitting in an area where they are at a great risk of a malaria outbreak. | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Those in business told thaws the banking system, which is so vital if | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
people are to survive, is crippled. One businessman said at one stage | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
that he had before the conflict, he had 15 banks he could work through, | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
he now has just one left and he risks, worries, that will close | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
soon. Can ministers do what they can to ensure that what remains of the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
banking system stays open, so that those involved in business can | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
continue to trade. This is vital. Much of the food in Yemen is | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
imported. We were told by up to 80 to 90%. We were told that the | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
economy and the function of the economy at present is crippled. | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
Manufacturing, what food production there is in Yemen, has now stopped. | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
Products cost 300 to 400 times on the black market. Many of the | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
products medicines in such short supply. Major cities have had no | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
electricity for six months. The UN report of last August said | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
that 26% of private businesses had closed within a five-month period | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
but the diaspora representatives told us more that on their | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
estimates, 77% of private sector businesses have closed and 71% of | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
private sector workers have lost jobs. This is critical, as they have | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
told us that whilst aid can help, it will never be enough. Bearing in | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
mind we are talking of 20 million people. It will never be enough to | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
feed and support them. A healthy economy is what is needed. Can I pay | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
tribute to all of those working within Yemen, Save the Children and | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
the UN workers and the sterling work that they are doing in such | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
difficult circumstances. Let us hope that the world continues to hear and | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
take note of the suffering of Yemen, there has been too little | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
information put out for too long. I congratulate the members of this | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
House who are determined to ensure that changes. I am glad to be able | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
to participate in the debate on Yemen, clearly not getting the | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
international attention it should. I commend the Scottish news coverage | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
that has been given in the previous months, endeavouring to get into the | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
Scottish public's conscious consistently. My interest in Yemen | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
is sparked by Yahim when the exam results came out in Scotland. He | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
passed the courses he was studying in Scotland but his pride in it, | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
overwhelmed by the news he had to return to Yemen. | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
He was a pharmacist at home and in coming to Glasgow had participated | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
in voluntary groups to make a life in the city. He would have loved to | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
have gone back home but explained it was dangerous. That his whole way | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
of, he had no certainty as to what happened to his family in Yemen, he | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
could not return to people he knew, never mind a place that he knew. He | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
has since I have spoken to him, been made destitute by the Home Office | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
and sleeping on shelters and sofas. Today the Home Office tried to | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
contact him from an address he had been evicted from. I discovered that | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
UK citizens are advised if they find themselves in Yemen and have to get | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
out, that the advice is against all travel to Yemen, the mainland and | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
all islands, if you are in Yemen, you should leave immediately. There | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
has been no British embassy in Yemen for a year, and what of the citizens | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
of Yemen? If it is not safe for you, Mr Deputy Speaker it is not safe for | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
the citizens of Yemen. The last figures that I obtained from the | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
Home Office office, only 14 asylum claims were successfully made by | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Yemeni nationals. 31 refused and 221 souls waiting a decision. I hope | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
when the figures come out that the situation improves. But I urge the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
government to give certainty to the people like Fahim, who are worried | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
about their future in the UK. I attended the APTG in Yemen last | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
week, which was excellent but shocked by the stories of Oxfam and | :10:13. | :10:23. | |
Save the Children. The report of food, water and fuel shortages and | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
the report that 9. 9 children in desperate humanitarian need of aid. | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
The aid agencies tell us that they don't have the funds that they | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
require and ask for the partner agencies in other parts of Europe to | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
get more funding. It was made mention that the UK has been | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
generous but we need more aid out to the agencies. They are unable to get | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
access to the people that need their help and people have been displaced | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
in the country and many parts of the infrastructure are struggling. The | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
situation in Yemen is getting worse daily. Twitter brings news of more | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
bombs dropped in civilian areas. In 24 hours 25 civilians killed by air | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
strikes, had 5 injured and 17 homes destroyed. Yesterday 16 were killed, | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
31 injured. If this level of carnage was happening here, we would act if | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
a hospital here was hit by a bomb or missile, there are no fewer than | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
three Medecins Sans Frontieres have been in the past threw months, we | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
would find that unacceptable. There are medics struggling to do their | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
jobs, to patch up the people hit by the bombs in conflict, as well as | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
the people struggling with the humanitarian crisis as they are | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
coming under attack themselves. It is clear that the conflict in Yemen | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
it carried out with no respect to international humana law. The | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
hospitals are supposed to be off limits. It has been said that the | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
Medecins Sans Frontieres international President quoted: | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
There have been no breaches of international law in Yemen but | :12:03. | :12:11. | |
bombing is not tollable. Thank you for making way. She makes a very, | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
very important point. Illustrating the horrors of war that take place | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
largely in populated areas when one adversary chooses to hide amongst | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
and within the populated areas. That is unfortunately leading to | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
casualties. We are noted a vericating in any way that when a | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
civilian area or a facility somehow is attacked or destroyed, or in some | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
form, that it is acceptable. It is absolutely not. When there is | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
collateral damage of this form, it is important, whichever side has | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
done it, puts its hand up to conduct an investigation. We are not saying | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
it is right. ... Order! In fairness to the minister, you cannot take | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
advantage of the situation we are struggling to get everybody in. You | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
cannot make a speech when making a speech later. It is unfair to | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
everybody. Continue, Alison. Thank you. | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
The point is that this happened three times. Responsibility is not | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
being taken by those in the conflict. Medecins Sans Frontieres | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
are struggling to get the support that they need. Ambulance have been | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
hit while being take tonne hospital in this conflict. It is clear there | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
are huge errors made in how the conflict is being carried out. | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
These bombs are, you could say that perhaps they are not being targeted, | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
these hospitals but worse, that they are dropping bombs indiscriminately | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
in crowded areas. That is where the danger arises for the many people | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
living there. Also cluster bombs, illegal, being used in conflict. | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
These are from the pictures that appear on Twitter and other media | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
sources. And who would bomb a hospital? It is wrong it is against | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
all the rules of warfare. It is something that we should be | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
challenging on every possible occasion and if we have troops | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
embedded in there with the Saudis, they should be making that clear as | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
well, not allowing that to happen. The Saudis are getting the bombs | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
from us. We can stop this. Suspend sales from Saudi Arabia today and be | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
an honest broker to bring peace to the citizens of Yemen. I ask the | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Government to act now. I would like to thank the honourable | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
colleagues and friends in the chamber for securing this important | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
debate. As has been said, the conflict in Yemen has been described | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
as a forgotten war. It is fair to say in recent weeks and months the | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
conflict has been escalating and beginning to attract international | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
attention. I wanted to focus on a town on the humanitarian situation, | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
and like other members of the chamber it is a privilege to be a | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
member of the international development select committee. It is | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
said that some 21 million people are in need of protecting in Yemen, more | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
than 80% of the population. Recently we have heard evidence from NGOs, | :15:20. | :15:28. | |
Oxfam, Save the Children, and we have heard of the difficulties of | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
getting humanitarian aid into the country, where it is most needed. We | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
have heard that entire people need food, water, medical supplies and | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
even oxygen. That many civilians have been displaced and are forced | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
to live on the edge of the city. In the circumstances it is the children | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
amongst the most vulnerable. It is estimated that more than 9 million | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
children are in need of humanitarian assistance. There are reports of | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
of schools attacked or destroyed and of schools attacked or destroyed and | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
the consequences of conflict too. Often far worse than the conflict | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
itself. Children falling ill, who would not otherwise have fallen ill. | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
It is therefore vital that the UK continues to play its part in | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
helping the humanitarian aid effort. I am grateful to the time that the | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
honourable gentleman and the colleagues take to coming to the | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
chamber and updating and asking questions on the situation there. | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
. The Secretary of State has announced a further ??10 million in | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
aid. One of the biggest challenges is getting that humanitarian shah | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
aid to where it is most needed. It is therefore vital that the | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
international community does all it can to secure the safe humanitarian | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
cor doers so aid relief can pass through unimpeded without the | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
humanitarian aid space shrinking. And not just to help those who need | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
the aid but for those who work tirelessly on the ground in the very | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
difficult circumstances, managing and mitigating the risk on a | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
day-to-day basis. I want to touch briefly on defence and defence | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
corporation. Of course the UK supports politically the Saudi led | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
intervention. It is important to remember that this came at the | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
request of the legitimate President, to deter aggression by the Hewittis | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
and the forces loyal to the President and allow for a return to | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
the legitimate Yemeni government. That said it is worrying to hear of | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
air strikes on civilian targets. With all that is going on in Yemen, | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
I urge the government to continue to monitor the situation and to take | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
seriously the allegations of violations of international | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
humanitarian law. With conflict in the wider Middle East region, with | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Syria, Iraq, Daesh, continuing to make the headlines it is easy to see | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
why Yemen has been described as the forgotten war. Let's hope after | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
today we can play a part in changing that. We have to recognise that the | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
situation in Yemen is different to that of Syria but does not make it | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
less important. I urge the Government to continue to do all | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
that it can to play its part in securing a comprehensive and | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
peaceful solution for Yemen as I believe that is the only way to | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
bring about the long-term stable that the country, the wider region | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
and the world wants. I would like to congratulate the | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
honourable member for East Renfrewshire for bringing about the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
debate and at this time. Given the time pressures, I will focus on the | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
humanitarian situation in Yemen. Recent figures reported by the | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
United Nations indicated that the conflict claimed 2 almost 3,000 | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
lives and there have been thousands of casualties. Nearly 1. 9 million | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
people displaced and many have died deuce to malnutrition and the impact | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
of the humanitarian crisis. Even before the conflict, Yemen was a | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
poorer country of the world. Millions of people were suffering | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
greatly and already experiencing issues of poverty and hunger. Now | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
the country is experiencing significant humanitarian crisis it | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
is reported that more than 80% of the population are in need of aid. | :19:47. | :19:55. | |
Equating to almost 21.1 million people, including almost 10 million | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
children. It is the Yemenis civilians bearing the brunt. With | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
the public buildings damaged or destroyed. People have lost access | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
to services, including clean water, sanitation, energy and medical | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
services. It is reported that almost 600 health facilities have closed | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
and hospitals have been hit. Food prices have soared, creating a | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
desperate situation for millions of people, including vulnerable groups | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
of children. Of the 10 million affected children, | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
almost 8 million do not have enough to eat on a daily basis. UNICEF | :20:31. | :20:42. | |
estimates that 500,000-odd children are 1-8 of them at under five years | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
of age at risk of malnutrition. Many children have been forced out of | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
school. There are differing figures of the number of children affected | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
but it could be around 2. 9 to 3.4 million. | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
Furthermore with the medical centres shut down, diminishing supplies, the | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
children are at risk of dying from treatable diseases. This is in | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
addition to the risk of death or injury from the conflictsets. Save | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
the Children reported since the start of the conflict up to seven | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
children are killed or injured each day. In terms of human rights issues | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
it has been highlighted that there has been a significant increase in | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the recruitment and use of children in conflict in Yemen. I have spoken | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
about the impact of children used in combat. The effects felt long after | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
the physical scars have healed and it damages them schoolally for life. | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
In addition, issues have been highlighted with children, | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
especially refugees children falling Vic to human traffickers and being | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
at point of trauma, such as physical and sexual violence. The blockades | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
have had a significant impact on the quantity of the vital supplies able | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
to enter the country. The unpredictable and dangerous | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
situations that the agency staff are having to work in, also impeded the | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
ability to distribute crucial humanitarian supplies to the country | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
to the affected possible layingses. I pay tribute to the work of the aid | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
agencies in the area. There continues to be substantial | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
obstacles impeding the passage of essential goods into and around | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
Yemen and much more needs to be done to ensure that a humanitarian | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
corridor is created. I want to focus on the need for increased diplomatic | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
project towards all parties in the conflict to support UN efforts to | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
find a political solution to the conflict. We must pressure those | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
involved to comply with their obligations under international | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
humanitarian law and take all possible measures to protect | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
civilians and ensure that humanitarian agencies are also given | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
a safe space in which to operate. The UN declares Yemen A-level free | :23:09. | :23:16. | |
crisis zone, a category reserved for the most large scale crises. We need | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
to pressure all of those involved, ensure that humanitarian aid reaches | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
of vulnerable people and the population in general. I beseech the | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
Minister to do all possible to press for ceasefire independent enquiry, | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
political solution and ensure that the ordinary civilians affected in | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
Yemen are protected and supported. Can I thank the member for including | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
me on the backbench committee and for putting this debate forward. It | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
is a pleasure to take part in this debate following our early | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
discussions in Westminster Hall. I was born there, I have always taken | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
a close interest in the affairs in the middle east. It is regrettable | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
this has been carrying on in different ways far from the | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
attention of the rest of the world. The situation has deteriorated, the | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
Civil War has carried on. I am hopeful that this conflict can be | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
resolved but this depends on the willingness of external powers to | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
make that happen, just as much as it does the willingness of the sides in | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
the Yemen alone. The Civil War is the latest in a series of conflict | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
which reach back centuries and one strand of the wider conflict in the | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
Muslim world. Whenever our aims are to restore peace, we have to | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
understand there is a problem at the heart of it which very few | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
settlements have managed to resolve. Any is likely to require the | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
engagement and attention of the outside world for a long time. | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
Whenever we save -- whatever we say, we have a historic and moral role in | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
the affairs of this part of the world. The situation almost | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
throughout the period since 1945 has been of Civil War of some sort. The | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
coalition of Saudi Arabia and the golf countries are our friends, we | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
have influence, we need to work closely to stop this humanitarian | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
catastrophe. All through this, Yemen has been one of the poorest areas of | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
the world. Save The Children have been working there since 1963 and it | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
is a damning comment on the lack of political progress and commitment to | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
solve the conflict that they are helping the grandchildren and | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
great-grandchildren of families that they worked with more than 50 years | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
ago. The human terrier position is a deep crisis, I am reassured it fully | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
engages the attention of the Government, and it is supported by | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
the NGOs of. We are a leading donor and I welcome the recent | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
announcement of the additional support packages. | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
Would she agree that it is this disaster that presents the biggest | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
risk of falling over into neighbouring states, as people try | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
to escape? Yes, and the fear of Al-Qaeda and Daesh getting into a | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
failing country. However desperately crisis is in Syria, it benefits from | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
a degree of infrastructure, education and health, which is miles | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
ahead of Yemen. The poor of Yemen have no resources to fall back on | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
except of external aid. There has been a blockade by the coalition | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
engaged in the war. The impact of this has been significant, despite | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
the best efforts of the relief organisations. Would she also agree | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
that the blockade's impact on the fuel supplies upon which Yemen so | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
depends is a huge problem for this country? He has saved me quite a lot | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
of my speech, I totally agree. The role of the coalition led by the | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
Saudis has come under scrutiny because of the alleged human rights | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
violations. These are balanced by equal concerns of the legitimate | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
Government being overthrown, but the coalition is in a position of moral | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
authority to call a ceasefire. I am concerned about large casualties of | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
the Bush gets under way, with news outlets talking of dozens of deaths | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
last night alone. Saudi forces have entered North Yemen for the first | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
time. I hope we can get a that their presence is temporary and operates | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
under clear rules of engagement. The rule of Iran also needs to be | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
addressed, the West has engaged with Iran in the hope that they will | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
contribute towards pacifying the Middle East situation, but we have | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
yet to see the evidence that they yet to see the evidence that they | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
are willing to do so. There are already concerns about human rights | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
breaches, which the Government seems to believe are confined to the rebel | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
side. The evidence on the ground suggests the egg campaign has been | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
carried on with little regard to target verification. Our allies are | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
sure they do not mean to harm civilian targets, but it is fair to | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
question if they have the operational control and the | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
discipline we expect. We are in danger of being found in breach of | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
international law unless the coalition control their forces. | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
Breaches of international law will be independently investigated. We | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
have heard assurances that the Government supports investigations, | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
but have not had any detail about how we support them in practice. In | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
the discussion following the urgent question in January, the Minister | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
indicated that discussions with the Saudis about human rights concerns | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
would take place this week at the Syrian donor conference. I hope | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
these discussions will happen. The Iranians Foreign Minister is also in | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
London, I hope you discussions with him can take place. I hope the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
Minister will update the house. I want to add about the NGOs and | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
everybody else, I had a longer speech, I have taken that bit out, | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
but that is incredibly important. I am pleased that we have long had an | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
operational plan for channelling aid to Yemen, I am confident that | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
further stepping up our commitment will be efficient and effective, and | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
other members will support calls from NGOs and charities for our | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
increased involvement, and I agree with them. I hope that we have | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
meaningful talks this week, because the only way we will ever get a | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
settlement in Yemen is by talking, not fighting. With our young history | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
with Yemen, I hope we can be a major contributor to the peace process. -- | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
long history. I will have to bring it down to four minutes. With the | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
situation deteriorating, we must ensure that all sides in the | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
conflict are clear about the need for a political solution. Yemen has | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
descended into widespread armed conflict since March. Classified by | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
the UN as a level three emergency. But it remains in some ways a | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
neglected crisis. Government institutions no longer able to | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
deliver basic services to people in need. Including basic health care | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
and nutrition, water and electricity supply. According to Amnesty | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
International, four out of five Yemenis today rely on humanitarian | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
assistance in order to survive. There is no access to essential | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
services and food prices have soared, creating a desperate | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
situation for millions. According to the UN office for the coordination | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
of humanitarian activities, women and girls there face entrenched | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
gender inequalities that limit their access to basic services. And | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
livelihoods. The conflict has exacerbated the impact of these | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
inequalities. By October 2015, an estimated 52% of internally | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
displaced persons were female, and 22% were girls. Displaced women | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
often bear the burden of supporting their families despite challenges in | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
accessing assistance. Especially inside their communities. These | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
challenges are even more acute for female headed households. | :31:50. | :31:58. | |
Assessments show they are found to comprise 30% of households in some | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
areas. Gender-based violence are increased, especially sexual | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
violence of domestic violence, early marriage and trading sex to meet | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
basic survival needs. Despite uneven reporting, recorded GBP instance | :32:14. | :32:23. | |
shows and upward trend since March. Women are also more acutely affected | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
by living conditions and service availability. Even before the recent | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
conflict escalation, Yemen had the second worst malnutrition and | :32:37. | :32:38. | |
stunting levels globally. With half of all children malnourished and one | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
in ten dying before the age of five as a result. The UK cannot stand | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
idly by. This is why it is not only morally right but essential that the | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
UK has more than doubled its humanitarian funding to Yemen over | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
the past year, with new funding announced last week bringing the | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
annual total to ?85 million. The new ?10 million emergency support | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
package announced by the international developer and | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
secretary will provide much-needed help for people affected by a | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
conflict that has disrupted the delivery of essential food, fuel and | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
medical supplies to those most in need putting of lives at risk. This | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
new aid, which will go to UN and NGO delivery partners on the ground, | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
will include critical medical supplies. And rehabilitation of | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
health centres can improve the health of children in particular, | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
with 320,000 children suffering severe al nutrition. It will include | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
emergency food assistance, the protection of livestock, to help | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
people facing critical food shortages. Thermal blankets will | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
keep displaced families warm during winter as to put 5 million people | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
have been displaced by fighting. The aid has also included treatment for | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
potentially fatal diseases such as diarrhoea, cholera and malaria. The | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
UK can be proud of its humanitarian effort but there is more to be done. | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
I welcome the unity displayed today and the clear commitment of the | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
Minister to ensure that further assistance will be provided. I am | :34:25. | :34:33. | |
grateful to be standing here in this important debate, I thank the member | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
for organising it, because this is an important country to many of us | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
and to me, because I studied my Arabic in Yemen 20 years ago. I was | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
not born there as some of my friends were, and I did not grow up | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
overlooking the lake as so many did, that it is a country that has marked | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
itself on me. It is a country of such wonderful contrasts, it is rich | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
and green in land, beautiful, it grows some of the world's finest | :35:06. | :35:15. | |
coffee and khat, although it is not legal here, and it is extraordinary | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
for its richness and Arabic language was formalised there, the | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
domestication of the camel happened there, and the colonisation of the | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
deserts of Arabia and the rest occurred. It is at the heart of | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
Arabia and one of the reasons why this conflict matters so much. For | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
the Saudis, it is worth remembering this is not some minor adjunct to | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
their territory. It is a country which has such close relationships | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
with blood and history to their own. It is not funding they can cut off. | :35:50. | :35:58. | |
Many tribes have cousins and links there. I remember watching as | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
colonies, sorry, convoys of donkeys were going across the border, | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
because what they would do, forgive me for a slight diversion, they | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
would load up donkeys with he and take them on a route. When the | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
donkeys knew where they were going, they would remove the Hague, taken | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
by the driver and load them with heroin, and the donkeys would follow | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
the same route, and so the donkey caravans of drugs would come | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
straight out of Yemen. psychology We should recognise that they are | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
therefore defending their interest. I will not argue that they are doing | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
so in a humane way, they are not. They are behaving in ways that call | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
into question the training that they received from some of the finest | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
pilots and servicemen in the world. I urge them to remember the lessons | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
of doctrine when they studied at cramwell and to remember that | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
civilians are not a target. This is an important moment for them. This | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
is a moment when Saudi Arabia is beginning to assert its real | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
presence in the region. It has the right to do so, as it is an | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
important country. It also is right to do so when it sees the expansion | :37:15. | :37:22. | |
of the Iranian empire into areas that have been traditionally Arabic. | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
To I mean also to Iraq, to the eastern sea boards of Saudi Arabia | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
and to Bahrain. And the Iranian influence is growing and the | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
situation there is a threat today. So I welcome the fact that the | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
Saudis are reacting to this, and Britain is playing her role as a | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
good alley in supporting her but I urge the Saudis to think hard as to | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
how they are conducting the campaign. The campaign in the heart | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
of Arabia is one being played out on the broadsheets of the cafes in | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
Cairo, Algiers and William Hague. People are looking at the leadership | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
of Riyadh and looking at the conduct and thinking to themselves as many | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
think, are these the allies we want? Is this the example for aArabia? The | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
example of a post Arab Spring generation? I ask the Saudi | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
government to think very hard, very hard about the human rights and the | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
lives of the people that they are affecting, not just in Yemen but | :38:29. | :38:39. | |
around the Arab world. I congratulate my friend from east | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
rep fewshire and others for securing the debate. We have heard a timely | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
and important debate and heard powerful and personal speeches, not | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
least from the honourable member from Malling and a personal | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
experience from the member of Portsmouth South and useful | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
contribution from the various members of the international | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
development committee whose recent report and letter, I look forward to | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
hearing the minister's response to. This is not the first time that the | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
issue of Yemen has been discussed. It was asked of the Prime Minister | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
why the use of UK-built planes with pilots trained by instructors by the | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
UK, dropping bombs made in the UK, co-ordinated by the Saudis in the | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
presence of UK military advisers does not add up to the conflict and | :39:35. | :39:44. | |
potentially leads to crimes of war being perpetrated. I look forward to | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
hearing a minister's answer. But it speaks to issues that I want to look | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
at about the humanitarian situation, the need for a peace process and the | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
broader question of the use of weapons and the UK's human rights | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
record. We have heard in detail about the humanitarian situation, a | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
country with the highest number of people in humanitarian need of any | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
country in the world now and especially the impact on children. | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
The member for Leicester East, spoke about the lifetime consequences of | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
denying children their education and much of the humanitarian situation | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
is preventible, or we could be able to mitigate, even if the face of the | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
conflict, the threats of food and security, and the challenge to | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
infrastructure, the affects on shipping, limiting the delivery of | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
food and medicine to get through. Of course, it was made a point of that | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
the Foreign Office itself advises against travel to the country, that | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
starkly illustrates the situation, yet the Home Office is trying to | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
deport people back to. It would be good to have a response on that. It | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
is important to have a return of commercial supplies and are | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
humanitarian aid and an establishment of mechanism in order | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
to simplify that and it is helpful to hear how the Government is | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
supporting that. Ahowling a humanitarian response is the first | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
step. We have heard that peace must come from within the country, that | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
is correct but needs to be supported by an international process. The | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
member for Leicester East was right to say that the bombing has to stop. | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
To allow humanitarian access and then to provide time and space for | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
negotiations. And the member for Torbay was right to point out the | :41:37. | :41:45. | |
geographical and political risk of violence spreading. If we are to | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
build peace in Syria or anywhere else, there must be peace in Yemen | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
and the UK Government should not undermine its position. That its | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
credibility as a peacemaker across the region by its links to this | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
particular conflict that is a crux. A major characteristic of the | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
conflict has been the use of explosive areas in populated areas. | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
Bombardments and ground attacks destroying not only military but | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
civilian targets and a concern that this is deliberate. Yesterday, the | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
friends that have spoken on the debate, met with human rights | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
campaigners told us of the destruction and showed us horrific | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
images of civilian death and destruction in the country, saying | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
that this is not a way to restore the legitimacy of any government, | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
let alone a foreign power such as Saudi Arabia, and that is in the UN | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
findings and report. But there is a serious allegations that had has | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
been made by Amnesty International, by a professor and others, who | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
conclude that on the basis of the information, that the UK Government | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
is acting in breach of certain criteria on arms exports and the EU | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
common's exports and trade treaty, by continuing to authorise the | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
transfer of weapons within the scope of those instruments. The minister | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
has said give us evidence, information, on which to launch an | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
inquiry on this but this legal opinion, by some of the most | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
respected human rights lawyers, is not the debate on which we can ask, | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
then what is? Why the UK Government cannot suspend this arms trade is | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
not yet clear. We hope that this will be high up on the agenda for | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
the committee of arms and exports control when it meets next week. I | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
want to leave time for the frontbenchers and the minister to | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
respond. It has been described as a forgotten conflict. I hope that the | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
debate has helped to change that. That this conflict will not be | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
forgotten. Serious questions are being asked of over the Government's | :44:10. | :44:18. | |
role, the peace process and the connection to alleged war crime, all | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
of which the government has to chance to respond to. Let's hear | :44:22. | :44:31. | |
some answers, and see some action. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
you for that, unexpected! Some of the comments that the honourable | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
member for Glasgow North, the spokesperson for the SNP has made | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
slightly cut across some of the things I was to say. But still I | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
will say them. But firstly let me thank the honourable member for East | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
Renfrewshire for securing the debate. We have heard some | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
passionate arguments, some important facts and statistics but mostly, Mr | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
Deputy Speaker, we have heard this is a conflict that will continue to | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
have profound effects not only on the region but the rest of the world | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
unless peace can be secured. That's not to ignore the terrible | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
desperation and the terrible death and destruction of the people of | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
that country, including so many children. Now the Labour Party's | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
position, the opposition position on the conflict is that we recognise | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
clearly the legitimacy of President Hadi and the coalition. We note that | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
the coalition action is backed by a United Nations resolution, that | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
Saudi Arabia has been attacked by Hewitty rebels from northern Yemen. | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
However it is clear to us that both sides should be doing considerably | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
more to reduce the humanitarian costs. Ultimately, as many | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
honourable members have said this afternoon, a peace talks, they are | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
the only way to bring about an end to the conflict. A negotiated | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
settlement it must be a priority. It was said that Yemen was being bombed | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
back into the dark age, quoting the Red Cross saying that this was a | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
forgotten conflict, something that many honourable members repeated. | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
And the member for Leicester East, my good friend says that the | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
conflict does have an effect in the United Kingdom. He should know as | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, he will see much evidence | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
that is the case. Now many members and honourable members and right | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
honourable members have made reference to the humanitarian | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
crisis. That is the issue in the conflict. It really upsets and | :46:49. | :46:56. | |
depresses so many of us when we hear statistic after statistic about the | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
effect of conflict and war on human beings and our fellow human beings. | :47:02. | :47:13. | |
May a warmly congreat lay the gentleman on his move to the | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
frontbench. I was moved by the case raised by the honourable lady for | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
Glasgow Central. And does he not agree we should look carefully at | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
sending people back to this country, when they have committed no criminal | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
offences but are here legitimately, that if they return, it is returning | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
to 50 a country in great conflict. That the Home Office should look at | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
this policy. Had I had a little more time I would | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
have come on to the honourable member for Glasgow Central's main | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
point, by the fact that we can even consider sending back vulnerable | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
people who have been here and in the case of her constituent, for more | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
than six years, to a conflict zone we will not allow our own citizens | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
to go near. That seems totally inhumane. I hope that the minister | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
will be able to, I know it is not strictly his responsibility but shed | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
light on whether or not the Government will reconsider the | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
position of the vulnerable refugees and asylum seekers from Yemen, as | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
well as the Syrians that we are taking in. I handicap him for that | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
important point. Our position is to be deeply concerned about the | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
humanitarian situation. Many quoted the statistics that 14 million | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
people are relying on food aid. More than 2.3 million people, four times | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
the number of displaced people existed at the beginning of 2015 | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
have fled homes in Yemen in search of safety that Peter Maura the | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
President of the International Committee of the Red Cross, somebody | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
I was privileged to meet with honourable and right honourable | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
friends of the chamber when I was a member of the international | :49:06. | :49:07. | |
development committee last month said that the situation in Yemen is | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
nothing short of catastrophic, a point echoed by the right honourable | :49:12. | :49:21. | |
member for Leicester East. The member for Charnwood made the point | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
he praised DIFID's efforts in Yemen but that we need a coalition of aid | :49:27. | :49:34. | |
givers to ensure that sufficient aid is received and as was pointed out, | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
also aid cannot resolve the problem, that the economy must be rebuilt, | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
and that can only happen with peace and the peace agreement to be | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
negotiated. As my right honourable friend said, Yemen is a catastrophe. | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
21 million people in need of aid, as he pointed out. Also, there was an | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
intervention by the honourable member for East Worthing and | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
Shoreham who emphasised, as many honourable members did, the effect | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
that this conflict is having on children. That children in Yemen are | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
in a pores position than children in Syria at the moment. Again to echo | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
something that the right honourable member for the East said: Yemen is | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
bleeding to death. Let me turn to my friend the | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
honourable member for West Liverpool, he pointed out that there | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
arerible atrocities committed on both sides but there is evidence | :50:39. | :50:46. | |
given to the international dwoement committee that DIFID's humanitarian | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
effort was undermined and overwhelming evidence of human | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
rights abuses that were given by the NGOs who gave evidence to the select | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
committee. NGOs like Human Rights Watch, hugely respected, and Amnesty | :51:01. | :51:01. | |
International. Let me move to Saudi Arabia. I want | :51:02. | :51:11. | |
to mention the issue of cluster munitions. There were widespread | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
reports from NGOs that they have been used in this terrible conflict. | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
In response to a written Parliamentary question from my | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
friend the Shadow Foreign Secretary, the Government may be conceding that | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
this is true. The Foreign Secretary said, we are aware of reports of the | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
alleged abuse of cluster munitions by the coalition in Yemen, and we | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
have raised it with the Saudi Arabian authorities. The UK does not | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
supply them to any members of the coalition in Yemen in line with our | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
obligations, we will continue to encourage Saudi Arabia is a nonparty | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
to accede to it. I hope the Minister will give us further information | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
about that terrible situation. The honourable member for Glasgow North | :52:01. | :52:10. | |
did quote something, and I will quote something equally relevant, | :52:11. | :52:19. | |
from December. It is from a Queens Counsel. In his concluding | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
paragraph, he said this of the UK's trade in weapons with Saudi Arabia, | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
we can be clear in concluding what the UK is required to do to bring | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
itself into full compliance with its legal obligations. It should halt | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
with immediate effect all authorisations and transfers of | :52:41. | :52:42. | |
relevant weapons and items to Saudi Arabia. I was struck by the recent | :52:43. | :52:52. | |
words of the president of medicine for Frontier, if this is the new | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
normal, one of our hospitals bombed every month, we don't know that they | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
are British munitions, but we don't know that they are not, so we should | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
stop these arms sales. Clearly there is a strong case to stop arms sales | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
immediately, I am pleased that the chair of the select committee, with | :53:13. | :53:21. | |
his fellow chairs, have now re-formed the committee on Arms | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
export control. I served on that committee in three parliaments, so I | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
know how it works. That committee could examine very carefully how | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
British munitions and arms are being used by Saudi Arabia. In the | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
meantime, they should be stopped. I will complete the quotation. Pending | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
proper and credible enquiries into the allegations, of serious | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
violations that have arisen and could arise in the future, those | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
sales should stop immediately. I wish to conclude with two more | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
points. I have three questions I would like to put to the Minister. | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
There have long been serious and credible allegations of war crimes | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
against both sides are. Now that these reports have been collaborated | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
and corroborated by a UN report, the opposition has called for the | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
suspension of arms sales to Saudi Arabia while this is being | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
investigated. That has been backed by the international developer and | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
committee. Last week the Minister said that he was yet to read and | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
study the UN report, he has now had the time to do that, what does he | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
make of the report? Last week the minister promised to raise the | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
report with the Saudis at the highest level. This week I wonder if | :54:47. | :54:59. | |
he has had the chance to do so. The Government has consistently said the | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
report must be investigated, what would he consider to be an adequate | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
investigation? Finally, we have had some remarkable speeches today, not | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
just from the member for Liverpool West Derby, the member from Walton, | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
East Kilbride and Aldridge-Brownhills, all of whom I | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
have served with on the committee until last month, but also the | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
members for Charnwood, Torbay, Glasgow Central, Tonbridge and | :55:27. | :55:37. | |
morning, ... And finally, the Yemenis in this house, those that | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
were born there, I hope that between the Government can take the hens are | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
listened to what has been said and play an important and vital role in | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
securing a piece for the people of Yemen and the rest of the world. I | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
have just under six minutes to answer this very short debate, too | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
short in my view. I cannot do justice to the quality and detail of | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
the questions and the concerns that have been raised. I assure | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
honourable members I will write to them to do my best. I will make | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
comments at the moment. This debate, short though it is, we should have | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
longer debate than these, it has shown there is an interest and | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
concern and expertise. I will do my best to be in touch. I pay tribute | :56:36. | :56:44. | |
to the honourable lady and putting forward this important debate. She | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
started by talking about the humanitarian devastation in the | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
country, and she talked about this as the forgotten war. I had the | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
chance at the conference that is taking place on Syria to speak to | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
the Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, and I said, look at the support that | :57:09. | :57:21. | |
Libya has given, in dealing with the Geneva talks, and look at the | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
support that is given to the special envoy for Yemen. It is not on the | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
same scale. There is an acknowledgement that more needs to | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
be done by the international community because of the scale of | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
the humanitarian catastrophe that is taking place. She mentioned the | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
concerns about oil getting into the country, along with other assets | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
that needed to keep people alive. We have heard from some passionate | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
speeches on all sides, the UK is not looking the other way at all, we are | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
one of the largest donors and supporters, we are looking to | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
support the UN envoy as well, towards a political solution. She | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
touched on the 119 incidents that have been put forward by the UN | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
report, I intervened to qualify my own comments. I welcomed the | :58:14. | :58:22. | |
spokesman, I raised it with the representatives at the Syria | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
conference, and I spoke to the president on the phone and raised | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
the concerns about what is happening. I had the chance to speak | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
to the UN envoy to raise the concerns about the scale of the | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
profile of what is happening here. I am sorry there has been a delay in | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
the talks following the ceasefire. We are working very hard to | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
establish what needs to come first before the ceasefire, which is the | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
confidence building measures, this is the brilliant in making sure the | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
ceasefire can last. My honourable friend gave a passionate speech, | :58:59. | :59:06. | |
again calling it the forgotten war. It was called a complex and ancient | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
land. He commended the role and coach visions we are making a map | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
and I concur. The member for Leicester East again articulated his | :59:17. | :59:24. | |
own experience and the house's experience with others who have | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
lived in or were born in that country. I am grateful for his kind | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
words of support as well. He touched on the wider concerns of extremism | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
in the Arab nation, not least with Al-Qaeda, who are responsible for a | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
number of attacks on the mainland, and made the link between what is | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
happening in the region, in Yemen, and the security we have here. That | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
should not be forgotten. I had the chance to meet the culture minister | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
of Oman the day before yesterday, and I raised some of these issues | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
and concerns. It was a private conversation, but it was helpful to | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
have. My honourable friend stepped back and looked at the wider | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
regional picture and said this is one of the seven global pinch points | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
that we have in the world from a maritime perspective, but also the | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
threat of other extremist organisations, such as Daesh, who | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
killed the governor of Aden. Al-Qaeda run a town on the southern | :00:29. | :00:38. | |
coast. He talks about affecting change on the establishment, what | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
would happen if Saudi Arabia's establishment was changed. This is a | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
liberal wing of a Conservative country that is running Saudi | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
Arabia. We want change and modernisation, but it must be done | :00:51. | :00:59. | |
at a pace which is workable. I turned to my right honourable | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
friend, I have known them since we were representing different student | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
unions, for Liverpool West Derby, it was a pleasure to stand in front of | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
his committee. I offered to meet him in private he took about some of the | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
details, because he was frustrated, in not being able to answer all of | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
the questions. He talked about a city, the president confirmed that | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
city has been cut off again from humanitarian aid getting in. He | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
raised the report again and I confirm we are looking into its | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
findings. There is a UN process, they have to do it. This was | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
pre-empted, but there is a process which comes through and we will be | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
monitoring. We will be looking at the findings. He talked about the | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
formation of the arms export control committee. Absolutely fantastic, why | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
has it taken so long? It is an important aspect of holding the | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
executive to account, I am pleased to see it is to be reformed. He also | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
touched on the Human Rights Council resolution in October, there is a | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
consensus, much as any individual would want to push forward a | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
particular line, we have to leave the room with what will work, and | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
that is what was decided will work. I should make it clear, the council | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
determined it will provide assistance to the actual Yemeni | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
national Independent Commission of enquiry, they are the ones that will | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
put forward and look into the details. They will report back to | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
the Human Rights Council, and if they feel that they are not getting | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
enough independence, that is the vehicle by which the mechanism can | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
recognise, rather than the call for an independent enquiry. Time is | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
against me, I have so many other comments and answers to provide, I | :03:09. | :03:16. | |
will turn, all right, to members to respond. This Government takes the | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
matter of what is happening in Yemen extremely seriously. I have devoted | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
a lot of time to trying to remain on the forefront of this to influence | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
and recognise the concern that this house has on the human rights | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
issues. I take those away with me. I am grateful we have been able to | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
debate these matters, I hope the next time we can do so we are not | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
limited to this. I would like to thank everybody who has taken the | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
time to speak. It is heartening to see such a high turnout. That | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
reflects the importance with which we would consider the subject. There | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
have been impassioned speeches, some with great knowledge of the country. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
It has been forgotten, and I hope this has some positive impact. I | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
reiterate my calls for the UK Government to consider our position | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
in relation to the Arms sale to Saudi Arabia. Along with | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
humanitarian aid, access and the need for a consistent and coherent | :04:26. | :04:27. | |
peace process, these things are key to preventing the stability they | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
need to move forward, for the benefit of the people of Yemen and | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
the wider benefit of the global community. The question is as on the | :04:38. | :04:46. | |
order paper. As many of the opinion Saint ayes. The ayes have it. I beg | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
to move the house adjourned. Subtitles resume at 11pm | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
for Thursday In Parliament. | :04:55. | :05:05. |