24/02/2016 House of Commons


24/02/2016

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Order, statement the Secretary of State for Scotland, Secretary David

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Mundell. Mr Speaker, with permission I would like to make a statement

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about the new fiscal framework for Scotland which was agreed yesterday

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by the United Kingdom and Scottish governments. And I begin by paying

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tribute to everyone who has worked so hard to arrive at this point, my

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right honourable friend the Chief Secretary and Deputy First Minister

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of Scotland, John Swinney, who have led these negotiations with skill.

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Lord Dunlop, whose contribution has been invaluable and the dedicated

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teams of officials from Her Majesty's Treasury and the Scottish

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Government who have worked tirelessly on behalf of their

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respective governments. They can be proud of what has been achieved and

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the servers they have given. This is an hugely systolic deal and will

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pave the way for the Scottish parliament to become one of the most

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accountable the bolt parliaments in the world. We have respected all the

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principles set out in the cross-party Smith agreement and

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delivered a deal that is fair for Scotland and therefore the whole

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United Kingdom. As Lord Smith himself said yesterday evening, when

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the Smith agreement was passed to the Prime Minister and First

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Minister, both gave their word they would love it into law. They have

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met that promise in full. -- deliver it into law. You will be more

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details in coming days but I would like to set out a future GL and

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solve the deal. The Scottish Government will retain all of the

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revenue from the taxes being devolved or assigned including

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around 12 billion of income tax and 5 billion of VAT. The block grant of

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the Scottish Government will be adjusted to reflect the devolution

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and assignment of further taxes and the devolution of further spending

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responsibilities. We have kept our commitment to retain the Barnett

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formula extending this to cover the areas of devolved welfare. We will

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use the governments preferred funding model. Under this model the

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government holds all specific breasts in relation to devolved

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taxes just as it does under the Barnett formula. That is fair to

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Scotland and fair to the rest of the United Kingdom. However, for a

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transitional period covering the next Scottish Parliament there is an

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agreement to share the Scottish Pacific risks as these are

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implemented. The Scottish Government will hold the economic risk while

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the UK Government will hold the population risks. A Scottish

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Government will not receive a any less than Barnett funding over the

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course of the spending review simply due to different collation growth

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and by the end of 2021 a review of the framework will be formed by an

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independent report so that we can end Stewart we are continuing to

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deliver Smith in full with the Scottish Government responsible for

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the full range of opportunities and risks associated with its new

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responsibilities. We have also agreed the Scottish Government will

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have additional new borrowing powers which will ensure the Scottish

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Government can manage its budget effectively and invest up to 3

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billion in infrastructure. In line with the recommendation of the Smith

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agreement we will provide the Scottish Government with ?200

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million chair to setup the new powers will control. The government

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has set up more powers to the Scottish people ensuring they have

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one of the most our full devolved parliaments in the world, and

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economic and national security that comes with being part of our United

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Kingdom. That is what we have agreed and that is what we have delivered

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in full. Now that we have agreed this story demolition deal the

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conversation must move on to how these new hours are to be used. The

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Scottish Government will have extensive powers on tax, welfare and

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spending. It will have control over income tax and be able to change the

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rates and thresholds. It will be able to create new benefits and of

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course the permanence of the Scottish Parliament is put the on

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any doubt. Mr Speaker, the people of Scotland voted for these new powers

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in the deserve to hear from the parties in Scotland how they will

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use them. New powers which, if used well, it can grow Scotland's economy

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and indeed population and bring opportunity and prosperity. Now that

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we've agreed this fiscal framework I hope and trust that this House and

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the other place will welcome it while, of course, subjecting it to

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full scrutiny. I commend this statement to the House. Ian Murray.

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Thank you Mr Speaker and I would like to thank the Secretary Of State

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for his statement and coming to the House yesterday to indicate he would

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be making this statement today. I'd also like to begin by welcoming

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unequivocally the news that this agreement has been made. I would

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like to thank both governments, the assistant to the First Minister and

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the Secretary Of State himself for working so hard to secure this

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historic deal. The people from both governments who we now do the deal

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work, my heartfelt thanks go out to them.

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As Lord Smith said, the agreement sees the recommendations of the

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Smith Commission delivered in full. Importantly, they have now

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stipulated that the balmy bar met Dutch macro Barnett formula should

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remain. I know the secretary of state has said details will be

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published by the end of the week. Can he indicate whether this house

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will have time to scrutinise it in detail? -- Barnett formula. What

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this process has highlighted is that future intergovernmental

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relationships must be improved to make these powers work for Scotland.

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Lord Smith recommendations that both governments need to work together to

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get a more productive, robust, that the bowl and transparent

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relationship and that the joint ministerial committee must be

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reformed as a matter of urgency, echo in this process. And can he

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confirmed this will be done. We all know there was a stumbling block.

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Under a compromise, there will be a five-year transitional period, which

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will cover a full term of the next Scottish parliament. Towards the

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end, an independent review recommendation will be published.

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That will form the basis of a more permanent solution. When he gave

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evidence, the Secretary of State suggested the period between the

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review being publish and the transitional period ending could be

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as little as just 12 weeks. If no agreement is reached, what happens

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then? In terms of the period itself, it is my understanding that the

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Scottish fiscal commission will carry out forecasts for the Scottish

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economy. Can he confirmed that? Under the terms, but they will be

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fully independent of the Scottish Government, because last week the

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Scottish finance committee voted against allowing for this very

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independence. There seems to be some confusion over the block grant

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adjustments during this period to 2022. The First Minister said it

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would be done according to the Treasury's favoured method, but to

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the Scottish Government's favoured outcome. Can he confirmed what it

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will be? Will it be the tax capacity adjusted levels deduction? I

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understand that was his latest offer. Further clarity is also

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needed on the demolition of powers. New powers will be available by

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2017, he said. The First Minister does not think this is realistic. Is

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he able to confirm that the new tax powers will be transferred by April

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2017? Today, the Scottish Government in surpassing the Scottish budget.

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Ten months from now, we want them to have full control of passenger duty,

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and tax. We also want to have powers over welfare, which will allow us to

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design a new social security system for Scotland. Onto the review, I

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welcome it and that it will be fully independent. I have stated that

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partial oversights and arbitration should be an established part of

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relations. Can you tell us how the review body will be chosen and

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confirm it will be done in the spirit of consensus with the full

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agreement of both governments? Kenny also tell us what extent the review

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will implement the decision taken on the long-term decision for Rock

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grant adjustment. -- can he also tell. Today marks and historic day.

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The creation of one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the

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world. The demands have been met. Barnett protected, power was

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transferred, the Val delivered. Scottish politics will never be the

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same again, thanks to these new powers. We have entered a new and

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exciting era of devolution. -- the promise was delivered. My party will

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grab it with both hands. Thank you. I agree with most of what he said.

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In relation to the opportunity it presents and I think the people of

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Scotland, what they want, is to see us move on from discussing the

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process to discussing policies and the difference we can make for them

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with these extensive new powers. I would indicate that it is my full

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expectation that the agreement and associated details should be

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available tomorrow and I very much hope that that will afford them the

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maximum amount of scrutiny. It will be open to committees of this house

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to scrutinise the arrangements as they see fit. He makes, and for

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understandable reasons, reference to intergovernmental relations. I think

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it's important to look at what Lord Smith said, in relation to how this

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agreement was arrived at. He said, "It is difficult to imagine a bigger

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test. Whilst it was obvious they are very tough negotiations, what

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matters is an agreement has been reached". I accept that the leave. I

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believe that when the transition period is over, when the independent

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report has come forward, it will be possible to reach an agreement. And

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he has asked many times why it has taken so long. Many important

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agreements are reached at the 11th hour just by the very nature of

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doing a deal. I am sure that we will be able, on the basis that were set

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out to ensure that this is the case at the end of the transitional

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period. The independent review, which he refers to, will indeed be a

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matter of agreement between the two governments. As he is aware, there

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are many people in Scotland who perhaps ruled themselves out being

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independence, who aren't as independent as they seem. I think it

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is important that there is agreement between the two governments as to

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how that independent review should go forward. And then ultimately, in

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relation to the fiscal commission, yes, the agreement with the Scottish

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Government is that its forecast will be fully independent. And finally,

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this government will place no impediment in relation to the

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transfer of powers. So obviously we cannot impose the tax powers on the

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Scottish Government, we wouldn't seek to do so. But I would have

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hoped that they want to take them on as soon as possible and that is the

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end to which we will be working. May I congratulate the Right Honourable

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friend on his apparent success in achieving a settlement. Can he

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assure the house that this settlement, when it is implemented,

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not only gives a strong Scottish Government the power that needs to

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conduct its devolved affairs properly, but also it does nothing

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whatever to impair the ability of the United Kingdom governments to

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maintain financial discipline and healthy public finances for the

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British economy in future, because surely it's an essential condition

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for the future of growth and prosperity of the English, British,

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Welsh, Irish, United Kingdom economy? I am very happy to give my

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right honourable friend the assurance he seeks. The Scottish

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fiscal framework will be consistent with the UK fiscal framework. I will

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thank the Secretary of State for his statement and the conversations he

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had yesterday given the constraints of Parliamentary time and only being

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able to make a statement. I speak in behalf of all SNP members on

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welcoming the news fiscal framework. We all look forward to the draft

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heads of agreement being published for Parliamentary scrutiny. My

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colleagues and the Scottish Government were clear throughout

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these negotiations. They said they would not sign a deal which would

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include a threat to the Scottish budget. They promise of no detriment

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was made and it is a promised that the SNP has made sure was delivered.

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When they first began, negotiations, Scotland's budget faced a cut of ?7

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million. This week, it was 3 million. Yesterday, it was ?2.5

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million. Last night, they got a deal that ensures we will not be a pound

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or even a penny worse off. New powers were promised and will be

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delivered. I pay tribute to Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney for

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standing up for Scotland and being stronger for Scotland. I welcome

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that the UK Government will guarantee that the outcome of the

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funding model is delivered in each of the next six years. I understand

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that a transitional funding arrangement will be reviewed

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following the UK and Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2020 and

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2021 respectively. The review will be informed by an independent

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report, the recommendations presented to both governments by the

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end of 2021. Let me say this. The Smith report was crystal clear that

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the fiscal framework had to be agreed by both the UK and the

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Scottish governments. The Treasury tried to engineer an agreement that

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would have allowed them to impose a model of indexation in five years'

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time. Those are the facts of the matter. That would have seen

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billions cut to the Scotland budget. May I ask the following questions.

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Will he confirm that the Treasury no longer has the power to impose a

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method of indexation? Will he confirm that the review will go

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ahead without prejudice to the outcome? Will he confirm there is no

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default indexation option? And that the Scottish Government's agreement

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is required before any new indexation model can be adopted? I

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thank the honourable gentleman for the parts he welcomed in relation to

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the agreement. This has been a negotiation and it is a point that

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has been arrived at. It's not possible for the Treasury or UK

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Government to have engineered an agreement. What was needed was the

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agreement of the Scottish Government. That has that has what

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has been achieved. They have been able to agree on framework that is

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fair to Scotland and fair to the people of Scotland. I can reassure

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him that the review will go ahead on an independent basis. Without

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prejudice or predetermined outcome and it will be concluded by the end

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of 2020. There will be no imposition of any formula at the end of that

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period and what happens there will be by way of agreement. As I said,

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greeting Lord Smith, I believe this process, in some of the most

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difficult types of negotiation, gives us constants that UK

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Government and Scottish Government will be able to reach an agreement.

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Extrapolating recent population trends, what is the additional cost

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to England and Wales and Northern Ireland of the transitional

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arrangements on population? There will be no additional cost to

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England and Wales and Northern Ireland in relation to the powers

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being transferred. If we were not proceeding with this devolution

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settlement. Because some is being delivered to the Scottish Government

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is the same as would be delivered under the Barnett formula -- the

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amount. The Scottish Government has pledged to halve passenger duty. It

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leaves Newcastle Airport at risk. Following the statement, when can we

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expect a decision from the government on support for regional

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airports, as promised by the Prime Minister, as ongoing uncertainty is

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very damaging. I note for the honourable lady says. People in

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Scotland will note that the SNP position used to be to abolish

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passenger duty completely. So they're somewhat of a change there.

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But she makes an important point. There is a review and I'm sure these

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issues will be issues that are considered as the budget process

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goes ahead. It's not the measure of giving to others what you demand

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yourself. Why should the Scottish people feel any different? Doesn't

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the Secretary of State realised there must be some merit in the

:20:50.:20:53.

argument that as long as we maintain the outmoded, outdated and unfair

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Barnett formula, which is disadvantage for the English, we

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will stoke unhappiness on both sides of the border.

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My honourable friend as we well know is staunch in this chamber. When he

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moved his amendment for complete fiscal freedom my response to that

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is that I think the people of Scotland would not respond well to

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having a ?10 billion annual Black hole in their finances and that fool

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fiscal freedom is not the answer. Further freedom assets set out

:21:44.:21:47.

within the Scottish bill to create a power Parliament is what the people

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want and what this government is delivering. Washer. Can I

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congratulate all involved for the principle of no detriment. Can I

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also thank the chief Secretary for attending and the Deputy First

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Minister and hope they come again to explain more about the details of

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this fiscal framework. Can I just ask the Secretary Of State, at the

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beginning of the process we have heard this figure 7000000000 pounds,

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Devon billion the Treasury intended to cut from the Scottish budget, why

:22:24.:22:27.

was it the Treasury 's intention to cut billions of pounds from the

:22:28.:22:32.

Scottish budget and what did he, as the Scottish Secretary for Scotland,

:22:33.:22:39.

a ten to do about it? Mr Speaker Rhino the honourable gentleman does

:22:40.:22:41.

not understand the concept of negotiation where to sides work

:22:42.:22:50.

together to get an agreement. Assertions and sound bites sound

:22:51.:22:53.

good but they do not deliver for the people of Scotland. What delivers is

:22:54.:22:57.

the two governments working together to produce a sustainable agreement.

:22:58.:23:04.

That is what we've done, we got an agreement that underpins the

:23:05.:23:06.

Scotland Bill which means Scotland can get these powers over tax and

:23:07.:23:13.

welfare. People want to move on from the process debate, they want to

:23:14.:23:18.

view the holiday ideas. Maggie Throup. The enquiry into the fiscal

:23:19.:23:28.

framework shows into the new welfare powers devolved to Scotland, has my

:23:29.:23:33.

right honourable friend find any details from the Scottish Government

:23:34.:23:36.

on how the plan to use the new powers? I very much welcome the fact

:23:37.:23:42.

the First Minister and Deputy First Minister have indicated they do land

:23:43.:23:48.

to set out how they intend to use the powers. I think it was very

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interesting some of the media reports in Scotland in particular

:23:53.:23:57.

that indicate the SMP land to significantly increase the tax

:23:58.:24:03.

burden on those middle-income earners in Scotland but obviously we

:24:04.:24:07.

will have two weight. The detail in the manifesto what will be the cases

:24:08.:24:16.

there will be no excuses now, Mr Speaker, the honourable members

:24:17.:24:18.

opposite can come here to this Parliament and complain about

:24:19.:24:21.

certain welfare changes that they will have the ability within

:24:22.:24:24.

Scotland to set their own welfare arrangements. The Scottish

:24:25.:24:30.

Government have been able to achieve their chosen deduction method

:24:31.:24:36.

through to a skilled strategy what advice will he get to the Welsh

:24:37.:24:39.

government when it comes to negotiating the fiscal framework for

:24:40.:24:49.

Wales? What I am Cleon is that the position in Wales will be as in

:24:50.:24:54.

Scotland, the people of Wales will benefit most when the Welsh

:24:55.:24:59.

government and the United Kingdom government work constructively

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together for their benefit. Isn't it time, Mr Speaker, that we heard from

:25:09.:25:11.

the Scottish Government detailed plans to devolved our down to the

:25:12.:25:16.

Scottish communities? Revolution should not stop at Holyrood. I

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absolutely agree with my honourable friend and I am sure he will have

:25:27.:25:32.

read my speech of the 21st of November delivered in Glasgow city

:25:33.:25:36.

Chambers, making exactly the case for devolution within Scotland.

:25:37.:25:43.

Unfortunately, in recent times, Scotland has become one of the most

:25:44.:25:48.

centralised countries in terms of government. I believe the news that

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if government elected in May should be devolving further powers and the

:25:54.:25:58.

best way to achieve that is to elect more Scottish Conservative MPs under

:25:59.:26:05.

the leadership of Ruth Davidson. Thank you, how great to follow that

:26:06.:26:09.

remark from the Secretary Of State. How does the cost can be a to the

:26:10.:26:16.

government current calculations for implementing a deal agreed at last

:26:17.:26:22.

weeks EU summit for foreign workers in the UK? I welcome the question,

:26:23.:26:31.

it she and I were both Scottish candidates bodies cottage Parliament

:26:32.:26:36.

in the dim and distant past. I am sure the details I am sure the

:26:37.:26:52.

details will stand up to scrutiny. It is an unedifying spectacle when

:26:53.:26:55.

large numbers are quite so visit this. He's even graces that all of

:26:56.:27:01.

them do have a very notable smile on their faces so at least there is

:27:02.:27:08.

humour in the chamber. Mr Alan mac you wish to give us the benefit of

:27:09.:27:15.

your views? This new agreement does show that Scotland's government can

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work together and the details of how the world use these new powers? I

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certainly do and I do since yearly hand have on a number of occasions

:27:29.:27:34.

in this chamber, paid particular tribute to the Deputy First Minister

:27:35.:27:39.

of Scotland, John Swinney. He and I have had numerous conversations like

:27:40.:27:42.

this process and twilight times we have been in disagreement, they have

:27:43.:27:48.

always been cordial and civil and that is the basis of the

:27:49.:27:51.

relationship I want to see with the Scottish Government. I think the

:27:52.:27:56.

honourable gentleman is right and what this agreement means is that

:27:57.:27:58.

the Scottish bill can pass through the House and hopefully received

:27:59.:28:03.

consent motion at Holyrood and what that will mean is the will be no

:28:04.:28:08.

hiding place on these issues bodies cottage government. If they want to

:28:09.:28:11.

spend more they will have the tax powers to do so and if they want to

:28:12.:28:15.

have higher welfare they will have the ability to do so. My

:28:16.:28:24.

constituents will welcome this agreement and the fact the Scottish

:28:25.:28:27.

Government was able to persuade the Treasury to abandon its initial

:28:28.:28:31.

position which would have meant seven pounds -- ?7 billion of cuts

:28:32.:28:36.

in the Scottish finance and come to the Smith position that there should

:28:37.:28:40.

be no detriment. At this been the original possession of the secretary

:28:41.:28:46.

we could have got this done before Christmas rather than spend so much

:28:47.:28:50.

time with that. Is now the case beyond doubt that principle of no

:28:51.:28:56.

detriment to the Scottish budget is enshrined both now and in the

:28:57.:29:06.

future? Yes, as is the other point in the Smith commission, it is not

:29:07.:29:13.

just in Scotland but across the UK. I was very clear that Barnett would

:29:14.:29:17.

be retained, that has been done and it is right it has been done. The

:29:18.:29:21.

starting point for public spending in Scotland now is 115% of the UK

:29:22.:29:27.

average. Can the Secretary Of State tell the House in terms of his

:29:28.:29:30.

modelling what that percentage per capita will be at the end of this

:29:31.:29:36.

Parliament? Certainly, since the honourable gentleman asked for

:29:37.:29:41.

complex calculation, I will be happy to write to him in that regard. What

:29:42.:29:47.

I would say and I do respect his strongly held views an allusion to

:29:48.:29:52.

the Barnett formula, the government division is clear, the Barnett

:29:53.:29:56.

formula is being retained. Following yesterday's devastating votes on the

:29:57.:30:02.

Lord amendments for the Welfare Reform Bill, and the Secretary Of

:30:03.:30:08.

State say more on cams of when powers will be transferred to

:30:09.:30:12.

Scotland so that at least in Scotland we can do something to

:30:13.:30:16.

prevent the appalling effects of poverty on children and disabled

:30:17.:30:24.

people? Obviously I do not agree with her perspective in relation to

:30:25.:30:29.

specific policies but she is right the Scottish parliament will have

:30:30.:30:32.

specific and detailed policies in relation to welfare. We have a joint

:30:33.:30:35.

ministerial group on welfare which includes myself and Scottish

:30:36.:30:41.

ministers Alex Neil and Roseanna Cunningham and what we need to do is

:30:42.:30:44.

work through that group in terms of the transfer of specific powers.

:30:45.:30:49.

What we do not want to do is order to be a transfer of power without

:30:50.:30:52.

new arrangements being in place cause obviously goes able in receipt

:30:53.:31:00.

of the benefits have to be our prime concern. We are going to work

:31:01.:31:04.

closely together. An enormous amount of work has been done by officials

:31:05.:31:09.

to date and I am confident once we know the cause we do not fully now,

:31:10.:31:13.

of course, what the Scottish Government proposal la, once we know

:31:14.:31:17.

what the RB will be able to make an effective transition. The Secretary

:31:18.:31:26.

Of State in his reply to my honourable friend the member for

:31:27.:31:30.

Perth and North they are sure seemed to confirm that the Treasury is

:31:31.:31:36.

opening bed in these negotiations, a so-called level deductions approach

:31:37.:31:42.

which would have led to a ?7 billion debt in Scottish spending, the

:31:43.:31:48.

opening bed was merely a negotiating ploy. If that is the case will be

:31:49.:31:53.

Secretary Of State confirm that it was disrespectful for negotiations

:31:54.:31:56.

to start with the position so far from the doubt and will he confirm

:31:57.:32:02.

that will ever happen again? Mr Speaker, what complete and utter

:32:03.:32:09.

nonsense! A deal is done that is good for Scotland, good for the UK

:32:10.:32:14.

and honourable members opposite had to trawl through newspaper reports

:32:15.:32:17.

to find something that they can complain about! This is a good deal

:32:18.:32:25.

for Scotland, it gets Scotland new powers, like stock about how we use

:32:26.:32:28.

those powers or the benefit of Scotland and let the grievance

:32:29.:32:37.

agenda to bed once and for all! I have no desire to sour the tone of

:32:38.:32:42.

consensus on what is and the story date for Scotland. It is a fact and

:32:43.:32:46.

many of my constituents leave that funding for Scotland and parts of

:32:47.:32:52.

the Barnett formula art and fear to the north of England. That is the

:32:53.:32:55.

acknowledged that grievance and how does this new fiscal framework James

:32:56.:33:00.

that? I acknowledge that people have those feelings and a number of

:33:01.:33:05.

people on both sides of this House have raised issues about the Barnett

:33:06.:33:11.

formula. In my view that is their job as representatives of different

:33:12.:33:15.

parts of the United Kingdom. My position is quite clear, the Barnett

:33:16.:33:18.

formula is good for Scotland and this over at is keeping the Barnett

:33:19.:33:26.

formula. And the Secretary Of State name some of the devolved assemblies

:33:27.:33:28.

around the world that will now be less powerful than the Scottish

:33:29.:33:34.

Parliament? I can produce them a list and I will send him that lest

:33:35.:33:39.

because I am not focused on other assemblies around the world. I am

:33:40.:33:44.

focused on the Scottish parliament and making it a powerhouse

:33:45.:33:47.

parliament with the powers that make a difference in Scotland. That is

:33:48.:33:54.

what the state of the debate is. I think his constituents want want to

:33:55.:34:00.

hear about parliaments in South America and other parts of the

:34:01.:34:05.

world, they'll want to hear about what his party intends to do on

:34:06.:34:10.

income tax and wealthier. -- welfare. We have had a particularly

:34:11.:34:22.

mild November, December and January, two G, going forward, let us know

:34:23.:34:26.

when he expects this will to finish its passage in the House of Lords,

:34:27.:34:31.

when he expects it go back to the House of Commons and when he expects

:34:32.:34:38.

it to get consent? In relation to the first two questions I expect

:34:39.:34:42.

that to be Marge and I hope Royal assent will be achievable within

:34:43.:34:48.

March but it may be April but I am also respectful of the Scottish

:34:49.:34:51.

Parliament process and the need for a legislative consent motion. I

:34:52.:35:00.

thank the Secretary Of State for advanced sight of his statement. I

:35:01.:35:05.

note the Secretary makes mention of the UK Government holding population

:35:06.:35:07.

risks. Will he concedes that the limited powers available to the

:35:08.:35:13.

Scottish Government do not allow for population growth and will he now

:35:14.:35:17.

listen to calls for a cottage posts by the work scheme? In relation to

:35:18.:35:26.

the latter I have had the pleasure to appear before the Scottish

:35:27.:35:29.

appears select committee and be grilled on the issue of student work

:35:30.:35:34.

visas. I made very clear that I would look closely at the work the

:35:35.:35:40.

committee has produced and I repeat that undertaking. What I do not do

:35:41.:35:46.

is I do not accept the premise of her question. I believe that

:35:47.:35:50.

properly used the tax and other powers that the Scottish Government

:35:51.:35:54.

have will allow it to grow the Scottish economy, create jobs and

:35:55.:35:57.

grow the population of Scotland. He talks a lot negotiations, but

:35:58.:36:09.

this is a point. When they first considered making cuts, could be

:36:10.:36:17.

Secretary of State, the man in the Cabinet, see what measures he made

:36:18.:36:22.

to protect Scotland? I have been closely involved in these

:36:23.:36:25.

discussions throughout. But they are negotiations. They are not about the

:36:26.:36:34.

Treasury imposing. As Smith himself recognises, they are about the two

:36:35.:36:38.

governments coming together in a difficult circumstance to negotiate

:36:39.:36:42.

about money, which is often the most contentious thing that is the

:36:43.:36:48.

subject of negotiations. What we have demonstrated is that both

:36:49.:36:51.

reach a deal which is good for both. reach a deal which is good for both.

:36:52.:37:03.

Thank you. He has just confirmed that the initial proposal put

:37:04.:37:07.

forward by the Treasury of a ?7 billion cut to Scotland's budget was

:37:08.:37:12.

not an opening negotiation position, but a serious proposal. In the light

:37:13.:37:17.

of that, I would like to ask, does he consider himself Scotland's man

:37:18.:37:27.

in the Cabinet or the Cabinet's man in Scotland? What complete and utter

:37:28.:37:35.

nonsense. This is an investigation. It was conducted by John Swinney. He

:37:36.:37:41.

adopted a completely different tone. Civil and cordial throughout. I

:37:42.:37:44.

respect his objective of getting the best deal for Scotland. That is my

:37:45.:37:50.

objective, too, but we have to get an agreement. And we got one. It is

:37:51.:37:55.

a good one. It is an opportunity to move away from the grievance agenda.

:37:56.:38:00.

I am afraid this afternoon's proceedings leave me in doubt that

:38:01.:38:03.

even with these extensive new powers, the S NP will be able to

:38:04.:38:13.

leave that grievance agenda behind. He has repeatedly criticised the

:38:14.:38:17.

party for failing to set out how they will use the new powers. But

:38:18.:38:23.

barely an hour ago, the Prime Minister floundered badly when asked

:38:24.:38:26.

whether the Scottish Conservatives would reduce the tax rate on high

:38:27.:38:32.

earners. I'm sure he would like to avoid suggestions of hypocrisy and

:38:33.:38:37.

extend his criticism to his boss. I have nothing but admiration for Ruth

:38:38.:38:42.

Davidson. She's the one person in the Scottish Parliament that can

:38:43.:38:46.

stand up to the SNP and hold them at her account. And if people don't

:38:47.:38:51.

want a 1-party state in Scotland, the way to achieve that is by voting

:38:52.:38:58.

Scottish Conservative. The Prime Minister didn't flounder. He told

:38:59.:39:03.

what the tax proposals are and they what the tax proposals are and they

:39:04.:39:07.

certainly won't be the same as the SNP's proposals revealed in the

:39:08.:39:10.

Scottish press today, to hit middle Scottish press today, to hit middle

:39:11.:39:23.

earners hard. Order. Thank you. I would like to raise a matter that

:39:24.:39:27.

was addressed at the adjournment debate on Monday evening. During it,

:39:28.:39:31.

I asked the minister about negotiations that may have taken

:39:32.:39:35.

place ahead of the ship to ship transfer proposition to take place.

:39:36.:39:42.

And I asked specifically if Marine Scotland, representing the Scottish

:39:43.:39:46.

Government, had been consulted. I got a reply, which is not in my

:39:47.:39:53.

hands, which is as follows... Marine Scotland will directly -- were

:39:54.:40:01.

directly consulted. It has not responded. When it was asked whether

:40:02.:40:05.

it tended to respond, the answer was no. I hope that our fries that

:40:06.:40:12.

point. That is a very clear statement. -- that clarifies our

:40:13.:40:20.

point. I therefore checked that situation with the Scottish

:40:21.:40:25.

Government. And I have received the following response... "The Scottish

:40:26.:40:29.

Government is not aware of being directly approached by the UK

:40:30.:40:32.

Government during the consultation on the Cromarty for transfers. We

:40:33.:40:43.

were aware via informal contract. It is safe to say we were not contacted

:40:44.:40:51.

by the MCA or the Scottish Government." It is worrying, because

:40:52.:40:55.

it leaves open the suggestion that the government has been economical

:40:56.:41:00.

with the truth. That is a very serious matter, not least because of

:41:01.:41:04.

the potential threat that there are two those in my community of the

:41:05.:41:09.

ship to ship transfer taking place. The Scottish Government has not been

:41:10.:41:16.

adequately consulted on its responsibilities towards

:41:17.:41:18.

environmental protections. I'll ask your advice on whether it would be

:41:19.:41:23.

appropriate for the minister to correct the record. It is open to

:41:24.:41:29.

any member to voluntarily correct the record. It is not the

:41:30.:41:34.

responsibility of the chair to arbitrate between competing claims

:41:35.:41:39.

as to a sequence of events. Nor is it my responsibility to interpret

:41:40.:41:45.

what the minister might have meant in responding to the honourable

:41:46.:41:48.

gentleman at the time. The honourable gentleman has made his

:41:49.:41:52.

point with fourth and alacrity and we would expect no less of him. If

:41:53.:41:58.

the secretary wishes to respond, he is at liberty to do so. But he is

:41:59.:42:04.

under no obligation. I will have it investigated. He has said he will

:42:05.:42:11.

have the matter investigated. I ought to emphasise that the

:42:12.:42:15.

Secretary of State wasn't the responsible minister answering the

:42:16.:42:19.

debate. I hope that the honourable gentleman is satisfied with his

:42:20.:42:22.

prodigious efforts of the day. We might move on now. Specifically, I

:42:23.:42:32.

know the honourable gentleman will be absolutely delighted that we can

:42:33.:42:38.

now move on to the ten minute rule motion. To be put forward by his

:42:39.:42:44.

honourable friend. And I am sure he is sitting expectantly. With that in

:42:45.:42:49.

mind. Ten minute rule motion. Thank you. I asked leave to be given to

:42:50.:42:56.

bring a bill to require distance sellers to provide purchasers with

:42:57.:43:00.

the lowest cut available for delivery cost option. To establish

:43:01.:43:07.

administrative penalties were benders advertise statements such as

:43:08.:43:12.

free delivery, but subsequently impose charges. I am grateful for

:43:13.:43:17.

the opportunity to bring in the consumer protection distance selling

:43:18.:43:22.

delivery charges bill. But it is an issue that my constituents deal with

:43:23.:43:28.

on a daily basis. And they tell me about it regularly. I know the

:43:29.:43:34.

secretary is aware of our concerns. There is a consumer appetite for

:43:35.:43:38.

improved online shopping throughout our communities. But there are areas

:43:39.:43:43.

that have been badly served by retailers and carriers. The online

:43:44.:43:48.

shopping market is a growing market and is particularly important to

:43:49.:43:52.

rural communities. And paying more in the Highlands and Islands is

:43:53.:43:56.

unfair. We know the cost of delivery will always be big, but this is not

:43:57.:44:05.

what it is about. This is about people feeling excluded, because of

:44:06.:44:09.

a costly range of delivery options. Even people living in cities like

:44:10.:44:15.

Inverness are being charged for delivery of goods. My constituent

:44:16.:44:21.

was asked to pay ?90 for the delivery of a mobile phone. Current

:44:22.:44:26.

legislation is not working. I am very grateful for the sport of

:44:27.:44:30.

honourable members from all of the nations of the UK who have

:44:31.:44:34.

experienced similar issues. In Northern Ireland, 43% of consumers

:44:35.:44:40.

have accounted a delivery surcharge. And it is estimated that some

:44:41.:44:46.

shoppers pay on top of standard UK delivery costs. For the Highlands

:44:47.:44:52.

and Islands, 53% of retailers apply a delivery surcharge. Unfairness is

:44:53.:45:01.

not only wrong, it is bad for business. Resentful customers are

:45:02.:45:05.

created when seven in ten consumers reluctantly play a surcharge for

:45:06.:45:09.

delivery for that item. And that they will look elsewhere next time.

:45:10.:45:14.

There is those who tell us that these are just market forces at

:45:15.:45:19.

work. But in this connected world, it has already been accepted there

:45:20.:45:23.

is a need for universal services in broadband plan provision --

:45:24.:45:30.

provision to allow everyone to participate. If all this seems

:45:31.:45:34.

small, it should be remembered that it is this type of industrious that

:45:35.:45:38.

lives longest in the memory and the higher the price and loss of trust

:45:39.:45:45.

to disconnect. Because of their postcode, people are considered to

:45:46.:45:48.

be in the minority and not important. Why should we allow that

:45:49.:45:53.

prejudice? Many are already asked to pay more for fuel and heating and

:45:54.:45:57.

amongst them are often the most vulnerable consumers. And that is

:45:58.:46:01.

why it needs to be our collective responsibility, when talking about

:46:02.:46:06.

the delivery of goods, two first of all deliver the principle of

:46:07.:46:11.

fairness. So let's now shine a light on good retailers and carriers. This

:46:12.:46:19.

bill also calls for the introduction of a mark. Many companies work hard

:46:20.:46:23.

to ensure they provide a good service across our nations. They

:46:24.:46:28.

should be celebrated and recognised. Highlighting their good practices

:46:29.:46:31.

will allow them to access and help those currently being discriminated

:46:32.:46:36.

against. They in turn would benefit from increased business. Really good

:46:37.:46:40.

news for these companies is that those consumers are proven to be

:46:41.:46:44.

exceptionally loyal and will buy again. There is a reason that

:46:45.:46:50.

operators like eBay have introduced a premium seller badge. It makes

:46:51.:46:56.

good business sense. The principles that eBay are seeking to apply are

:46:57.:47:00.

very similar to those I am discussing today. A key part of the

:47:01.:47:05.

rating is based on delivery and shipping costs. Their sellers lose

:47:06.:47:10.

the rating based on -- when they have poor feedback. In this example,

:47:11.:47:15.

there is a consequence for poor behaviour. But the wider distance

:47:16.:47:22.

selling market has no such thing. There are no consequences for bad

:47:23.:47:26.

practice on mis-selling. A kite practice on mis-selling. A kite

:47:27.:47:32.

quality mark will allow consumers to easily identify those traders and

:47:33.:47:36.

carrier who can be trusted. This can be industry led. It will need

:47:37.:47:41.

careful fort. But there are no barriers that cannot be overcome.

:47:42.:47:46.

The consumer rights act of 2015 allowed to make law clearer. But a

:47:47.:47:53.

number of retailers are still unsure of their responsibilities. Greater

:47:54.:47:59.

awareness is needed. This is not an isolated problem. In preparation for

:48:00.:48:04.

this bill, I spoke to consumer boots, trading standards and

:48:05.:48:10.

retailers and others. -- consumer groups. Some research says that they

:48:11.:48:17.

should have an upfront disclosure at an early stage in the transaction

:48:18.:48:22.

process. It is not happening. Seven out of ten consumers do try to seek

:48:23.:48:27.

out this information try to checkout. Recent has showed that

:48:28.:48:35.

some retailers are still not complying fully with new consumer

:48:36.:48:42.

legislation. Benders of delivery companies are very discriminate

:48:43.:48:46.

based on location. There needs to be a clear understanding of the rights

:48:47.:48:50.

of consumers and the regions they would have the such an fairness or

:48:51.:48:55.

false advertising. Existing laws are often unenforced and too cumbersome.

:48:56.:49:00.

So opportunities around administrative penalties need to be

:49:01.:49:04.

considered. Online retailers do have the right to choose where they

:49:05.:49:09.

surprised they're good or services. But consumers should also have the

:49:10.:49:15.

right before they get the last page of the transaction. -- their goods.

:49:16.:49:21.

It should include prominent and transparent the contract terms.

:49:22.:49:25.

Including the total price and services and all delivery charges.

:49:26.:49:30.

Not misleading terms. Those people who are told they can take advantage

:49:31.:49:37.

of free delivery within the UK, when that is untrue is an example. In my

:49:38.:49:42.

constituency, there are many mysteries. Like the location of the

:49:43.:49:46.

Loch Ness Monster. The biggest mystery has to be why Inverness, one

:49:47.:49:51.

of the fastest-growing cities in Europe, are apparently not in the

:49:52.:49:55.

mainland. At least according to some careers. People are not buying boxes

:49:56.:50:01.

to Brigadoon, they are asking for things to be sent to a modern city.

:50:02.:50:05.

The discrimination test has been failed. But couriers can make the

:50:06.:50:11.

situation worse for retailers by using out of date postcode software.

:50:12.:50:15.

There is and is consistent and variable approach -- and

:50:16.:50:24.

inconsistent. It can lead to confusion and lost revenue for the

:50:25.:50:30.

retailers themselves. There has to be a greater understanding amongst

:50:31.:50:34.

consumers, retailers and careers about their rights and the

:50:35.:50:37.

consequences for bad practice. It's not just me saying this.

:50:38.:50:42.

Organisations like citizens advice Scotland are calling for greater

:50:43.:50:46.

intervention and education. This bill also sets out the need for

:50:47.:50:51.

greater consumer choice. People often do not have those choices. Why

:50:52.:50:56.

are people in the Highlands and Islands paying more than ?15 more

:50:57.:51:01.

for delivery when we have a universal Royal Mail servers? They

:51:02.:51:02.

should have a clear option. On the ability to arrange their own

:51:03.:51:18.

pick-up from the vendor. They should have the right to choose. I know

:51:19.:51:23.

this will mean a change in working practices but barriers can always

:51:24.:51:27.

been overcome which will mean better business. I am sure there are

:51:28.:51:31.

exciting new business opportunities that could be explored in this area

:51:32.:51:34.

including the possible use of delivery Roker 's or working with

:51:35.:51:38.

other companies to maximise potential. In conclusion, in

:51:39.:51:43.

introducing this bill we aim to work with government, business and people

:51:44.:51:47.

to establish and provide not yet another set of promises but another

:51:48.:51:57.

set of solutions. Make sure there is clarity around the expectations set

:51:58.:52:00.

out in current legislation and consider the option of

:52:01.:52:04.

administrative penalties for continued abuse. The choice of

:52:05.:52:10.

delivery, let them decide if they want universal services, they are

:52:11.:52:14.

challenges but let's decide to support those people who find

:52:15.:52:18.

themselves in the election. They are not asking for the unattainable,

:52:19.:52:21.

they do not expect to be treated with and you favour but should not

:52:22.:52:25.

continue to be ignored. They deserve to be delivered to. The opportunity

:52:26.:52:31.

is here with this ilk to take action. The question is that the

:52:32.:52:38.

honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. Politics macro.

:52:39.:52:51.

As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Who

:52:52.:53:05.

will bring in the Bill? Others and myself, sir. Mr Drew Hendry.

:53:06.:53:28.

Consumer protection distance selling delivery charges Bill. Second

:53:29.:53:38.

reading what day? Friday the 11th of March 2016. Thank you. We now come

:53:39.:53:44.

to the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition relating to

:53:45.:53:49.

transitional state pension arrangements for women. To move the

:53:50.:53:57.

motion I called the saddle Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Mr

:53:58.:54:02.

Owen Smith. Thank you I am extremely grateful. I wanted to start today's

:54:03.:54:09.

important debate I saying how lucky I have been to always come from a

:54:10.:54:12.

family of strong and hard-working women. Mother and grandmother 's and

:54:13.:54:19.

now my wife and daughter and if the ears one thing I learned from all of

:54:20.:54:23.

them it is never to try to rule the world over their eyes. Never to try

:54:24.:54:29.

and take them from fools because I will guarantee you will always be

:54:30.:54:34.

found out. It is a lesson that the Tories really ought to have learned

:54:35.:54:40.

back in 1991 when they first started whining to equalise the pension age

:54:41.:54:46.

for women with men because that is precisely what has happened. We have

:54:47.:54:52.

been found out. Fine to have field in their duty to inform women

:54:53.:54:58.

properly about the changes planned. Hundreds of thousands of women were

:54:59.:55:02.

left unprepared for a decision that would see the unprepared lose up to

:55:03.:55:09.

?36,000 in tension payments. It compounded the error in 2011 when

:55:10.:55:14.

further delay of ancient age to 66 was rammed through with barely two

:55:15.:55:23.

years notice. Found in the words of their on pensions minister, the

:55:24.:55:26.

current pensions Minister, to have pulled the rug from under 206

:55:27.:55:35.

million British women. Labour today is going to speak for those 2.6

:55:36.:55:41.

million women and ask the government what they now plan to do to make

:55:42.:55:51.

amends. Before we get to party political about this it can be said

:55:52.:55:55.

that back in 1995 and individual orders should be given but shortly

:55:56.:55:58.

after Labour came in, where nearly one dozen Labour pension ministers

:55:59.:56:03.

over that time there were still 20 years away, and you not accept that

:56:04.:56:08.

we all have lessons to learn, and individual motors should have been

:56:09.:56:12.

sent out by all governments or at least buy one and he had the

:56:13.:56:17.

opportunity of those years? With respect I did not have an

:56:18.:56:20.

opportunity because I was not he that the time however I think he is

:56:21.:56:23.

right all successive month have a lesson to be learned from this sorry

:56:24.:56:28.

affair however the truth is I intend to spell out in my speeches this was

:56:29.:56:34.

first mooted in 1991 and no substantive efforts were made by the

:56:35.:56:41.

then Tory government between 1995 or indeed 1991 and 1997 when the left

:56:42.:56:46.

office, to offer a proper notice to people. The Labour government

:56:47.:56:50.

thereafter did attempt to do that and I will renew many in my speech

:56:51.:56:54.

exactly how we try to make amends but it was compounded by the current

:56:55.:57:00.

government is my actions in 2011. If anybody has lessons to learn out of

:57:01.:57:02.

visited the Conservative Party have visited the Conservative Party have

:57:03.:57:06.

the greatest responsibility to bear for these changes and have now the

:57:07.:57:12.

duty to make amends for them. I will make progress and then give way.

:57:13.:57:20.

This started back in 1991, that was when the Tory government first

:57:21.:57:22.

consulted on their intention to ship the state pension age for women from

:57:23.:57:29.

60 two 65 Queen it had been since the 1940s. The Chancellor then in

:57:30.:57:36.

the 1993 budget formally stated his intention to make this move and

:57:37.:57:42.

legislated for Ed through 1994 and 1995. The 1995 at stipulated the

:57:43.:57:51.

pension age would rise during 2010 and 2020 which means women born

:57:52.:57:58.

between April 1950 and December 1959 would have two week at a mean one

:57:59.:58:02.

month and five extra years before they could draw their pensions. You

:58:03.:58:07.

would have thought that such a massive change, the biggest change

:58:08.:58:11.

to women's pensions and happy century, would have been

:58:12.:58:13.

communicated with great care and with fanfare but it wasn't. Some of

:58:14.:58:20.

the women concerned were as young as 39 at the time and so it was

:58:21.:58:23.

unlikely they were looking at the ages of the financial papers or,

:58:24.:58:29.

indeed, being much it attention to the scant effort is made by the

:58:30.:58:33.

government to tell them about the changes. I am grateful but will he

:58:34.:58:40.

not accept that in 2004 DWP select committee found that the quarters of

:58:41.:58:44.

women of that age at the time whether we'd the changes of the 1995

:58:45.:58:49.

act so while I accept you were some changes and mistakes on both sides

:58:50.:58:55.

of the House three quarters of women did know about the changes. I am

:58:56.:58:59.

wheezed to swap stories about what government knew at the time, the

:59:00.:59:03.

question asked in the 2004 survey by the then Labour government concerned

:59:04.:59:08.

that the previous Tory government had not made proper provisions for

:59:09.:59:13.

women was indeed not unfortunately as straightforward as it should have

:59:14.:59:18.

been. Other surveys, 56, found that around 70 two 80% of women involved

:59:19.:59:24.

did not know these changes were taking place. It is no surprise they

:59:25.:59:27.

did not know because the government of the time, the Conservative

:59:28.:59:32.

government, spent little money advertising this. Here where few

:59:33.:59:37.

adverts in newspapers and letters when available to individuals if

:59:38.:59:41.

they requested them and many did not. I will quote one of those

:59:42.:59:47.

letters after I have given way. Thank you for giving way. Can I

:59:48.:59:51.

formed the House I have had constituents right to me to say they

:59:52.:59:54.

have stayed at this same address for the last 30 or 40 years and have

:59:55.:59:59.

received nothing to tell them about the changes? An extremely common

:00:00.:00:05.

experience for MPs in this House because the truth is the letters

:00:06.:00:11.

went out in 1995 by the then Tory government where neither use nor

:00:12.:00:15.

ornament. I have one here sent on the 13th of June 1995. The archive

:00:16.:00:21.

pages here and on not one of them does it mention the pension age is

:00:22.:00:27.

going to rise to 65. On every single page refers to the fact the state

:00:28.:00:30.

pension age for women is actually 60s and on the final page offers

:00:31.:00:36.

this extraordinary position that a formal be sent out inviting you to

:00:37.:00:40.

claim your state retirement pension a few months before you reach 60 but

:00:41.:00:45.

that was in the very month T-bill was going through this House and

:00:46.:00:48.

that government and it is a measure of what desperately were a job they

:00:49.:00:57.

did to inform people. I give way. I thank him for getting me. I have

:00:58.:01:01.

lost number of the people who have contacted me to say they had no idea

:01:02.:01:06.

of the pension changes, they heard about it on the radio or TV

:01:07.:01:08.

unfortunately we are raising this raw file on the government 's behalf

:01:09.:01:14.

but is it not insulting of the government benches to suggest these

:01:15.:01:18.

women are wrong or lying on that date is something wrong with them

:01:19.:01:21.

when ultimately it is the government is my responsibility to communicate

:01:22.:01:29.

these changes? It is wrong and insulting and compounds the

:01:30.:01:31.

fundamental insult that women who, by and large, have smaller pensions

:01:32.:01:39.

because they dealt with lower wages throughout their entire lives while

:01:40.:01:43.

bleeding a burden for the rest of us cannot access their pensions. She is

:01:44.:01:47.

entirely right it is completely insulting to suggest that there was

:01:48.:01:51.

robber notice given because the truth is, it was a botched job. The

:01:52.:01:56.

botched job from start to finish. The reason we now it is the botched

:01:57.:02:00.

job is because the current mentions Minister, the Conservative tensions

:02:01.:02:05.

minister in the House of lords, it says it was. She says clearly many

:02:06.:02:09.

of these women were expecting to receive a pension at age 60 since

:02:10.:02:14.

they were unaware of the changes made in 1995. Dan out of their own

:02:15.:02:24.

minds. I give way. I'm usually helpful to the spokesman. I am one

:02:25.:02:29.

of those women and I have never received a letter, I have never been

:02:30.:02:33.

notified and I think the department might know where I live. I cannot

:02:34.:02:39.

believe for a minute that the Honourable lady is old enough to be

:02:40.:02:44.

one of the women concerned. It tests the credibility of the highs that

:02:45.:02:50.

back you'd be so but I am grateful to her for her intervention. The

:02:51.:02:55.

last Labour government, I will give way to a gentleman. Thank you for

:02:56.:03:02.

giving way. Does he also recognise that the lot of women like Jane

:03:03.:03:06.

manners in my constituency who assumed she would be retiring at 60

:03:07.:03:11.

and is now disabled as no way to make up for the six years she has

:03:12.:03:16.

lost because of these changes? That is the case for thousands of women

:03:17.:03:19.

across this country which is why this is more than a small campaign.

:03:20.:03:25.

It is a fundamental injustice that must be changed. I give way. Can I

:03:26.:03:30.

thank my honourable friend who is making a very good speech? I find

:03:31.:03:34.

the number of women who are competing in the constituency and I

:03:35.:03:40.

am absolutely convinced of the conservatory that they do not know

:03:41.:03:43.

anything about this due to a lack of notification. We saw at the Prime

:03:44.:03:48.

Minister's Question Time a complete misunderstanding. My honourable

:03:49.:03:54.

friend is entirely right and he will know he was part of the last Labour

:03:55.:04:01.

government, we did try to improve this set of circumstances, we did

:04:02.:04:04.

conduct the survey talked about and there was a worrying low level of

:04:05.:04:09.

understanding. Between 2004 and 2009 several million pounds advertising

:04:10.:04:15.

campaigns and 800,000 personalised letters were sent out by the then

:04:16.:04:19.

Labour government to the affected women such as this one which in

:04:20.:04:23.

stark contrast to the Tory letter I cited earlier on does say on the

:04:24.:04:29.

first page that this person, the addressee, will be affected by the

:04:30.:04:35.

allergy is testified to by so many allergy is testified to by so many

:04:36.:04:38.

of my honourable friends and by the brilliant women of the war speak

:04:39.:04:45.

campaign whose tenacity and truth telling I think we should pay

:04:46.:04:49.

tribute to right across this House today cause they speak for hundreds

:04:50.:04:53.

of thousands of women. They did not know that they were in the firing

:04:54.:05:02.

line. Thank you for giving way. Ford thousand 465 women in my

:05:03.:05:05.

constituency will be affected by this. You are also not agree with me

:05:06.:05:10.

it is an historic inequality in the system which has caused this? Of

:05:11.:05:16.

course it is. There were historic inequalities that existed then and

:05:17.:05:21.

persist now. The gender a gap affects women, they don't have the

:05:22.:05:25.

full stand-by of them because of caring duties and that is why it is

:05:26.:05:29.

be asked to pay a price in their be asked to pay a price in their

:05:30.:05:36.

retirement. I give way. That he also agree with me that we are talking

:05:37.:05:41.

about a generation of women who are doubly disadvantaged, many of whom

:05:42.:05:44.

wear at work before the OP act came into force who had to take low-paid

:05:45.:05:50.

part-time jobs because of lack of childcare and the government is now

:05:51.:05:56.

keeping insult upon injury in disadvantage in once again? More

:05:57.:06:09.

from the constituency of my right honourable friend then anywhere else

:06:10.:06:15.

in this country. A magnificent job by the women. I will quote the

:06:16.:06:23.

current pensions Minister, because she said... "Across the country, I

:06:24.:06:28.

am hearing from women who are enduring that sudden, sickening

:06:29.:06:32.

realisation that their destiny in retirement is not in their own

:06:33.:06:37.

hands. And this is not about fairy tale luxury retirement millers. This

:06:38.:06:44.

is about affording the basics." The government cannot run from it. --

:06:45.:06:51.

retirement villas. I would like to challenge the figure that was voted

:06:52.:06:55.

from the opposite side. And the member from the front bench may have

:06:56.:07:02.

the figure. The one I saw from the di WP investigation in 2004 was just

:07:03.:07:12.

above 40%. It was not 75%. For such a cataclysmic change, every single

:07:13.:07:15.

one of these women should have had a simple letter on their doormat in

:07:16.:07:25.

1995. -- DWP investigation. She is right. Even if it was 40%, that is

:07:26.:07:31.

40% too many. There were five or six other surveys done in this country

:07:32.:07:39.

which suggests it was 80% of women who were unaware. The reality is

:07:40.:07:44.

that it was far greater. I think the scale of this problem only truly

:07:45.:07:49.

started to dawn on people and the governments when they decided to

:07:50.:07:53.

double down on their calamity with the 2011 pensions act. I will give

:07:54.:08:03.

way. I am very grateful. Of course, he is about to come onto the

:08:04.:08:09.

injustice of the 2011 act. Isn't the real issue here is not just the

:08:10.:08:17.

ladies have been hit twice by an increase in their state pension age,

:08:18.:08:22.

but there was no transitional arrangement put in place? Isn't that

:08:23.:08:27.

why it is absolutely right that we support the Labour motion today to

:08:28.:08:32.

get the government off the fence and provide these ladies with the

:08:33.:08:37.

transition they deserve? This house and the government benches would do

:08:38.:08:40.

well to heed the words of my honourable friend, because he has

:08:41.:08:47.

been the biggest campaigner in this house on their behalf. He speaks the

:08:48.:08:53.

truth, when he says members should back our motion and provides

:08:54.:08:56.

transitional protections for these women. The 2011 act broke not only

:08:57.:09:06.

the promise that the pension age won't rise until 2020. It also broke

:09:07.:09:10.

the promise that no rises would occur without at least ten years

:09:11.:09:15.

notice. It gave those women who suffered the double blow just two

:09:16.:09:22.

years notice. It was a decision that has already been described by the

:09:23.:09:29.

former pensions minister as" an ill informed mistake" he tried to make

:09:30.:09:34.

up for it in office and secured some mitigation for the 300,000 women.

:09:35.:09:40.

The current minister will no doubt mention this in a minute. Telling us

:09:41.:09:47.

it cost 1.1 billion. But I bet he won't remind us his predecessor was

:09:48.:09:51.

looking for 3 billion in order to offer those transitional

:09:52.:09:55.

protections. I suspect he may only say that half of that 1 billion went

:09:56.:09:58.

to men. I support the motion, because I

:09:59.:10:07.

support the women and the transitional arrangements. But I

:10:08.:10:11.

have to say he is making it more difficult for me and colleagues to

:10:12.:10:15.

vote for it by trying to make it such a partisan thing. 13 years of

:10:16.:10:20.

his government did not help the situation. Could I suggest that in

:10:21.:10:24.

the spirit of the motion he could get some more details of what those

:10:25.:10:28.

transitional arrangements should be, so we can start a dialogue, which

:10:29.:10:32.

the government should have started some time ago to see if there is a

:10:33.:10:38.

compromise to help those women who need it? I am sorry if I am bruising

:10:39.:10:44.

his feelings with the nature of my remarks. I am very pleased that he

:10:45.:10:48.

has supported the campaign. I know he has been brave enough to speak in

:10:49.:10:54.

favour of it. And I am positive that a man of his resolve

:10:55.:11:05.

will not be put off by a few words across the dispatch box. And will

:11:06.:11:10.

vote irrespective of what I said. I will come onto precisely the sort of

:11:11.:11:12.

transitional arrangements that the government should undertake. I am

:11:13.:11:16.

grateful. This is the third opportunity we have had to debate

:11:17.:11:27.

this. First of all, back and forth. The government has an opportunity to

:11:28.:11:32.

do the right thing by the women of this country. Why don't we just

:11:33.:11:36.

grasp it with both hands and deliver it for them? Why don't they? Why

:11:37.:11:44.

doesn't the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who occasionally

:11:45.:11:48.

comes to this chamber to answer questions... He's ducked out on the

:11:49.:11:52.

last five and once again he is not here. We ought to sanction him for

:11:53.:11:57.

failing to turn up to work. I think it is a good idea. The truth is the

:11:58.:12:02.

government is offering any further suggestions themselves. As to how

:12:03.:12:08.

they might do what the Secretary of State promised in 2011. He said that

:12:09.:12:12.

they would be transitional arrangements put in place for these

:12:13.:12:17.

women. And he hasn't offered it. The government has offered nothing. In

:12:18.:12:24.

truth, it offers defensive positions only. I hate to be partisan. It

:12:25.:12:30.

really isn't in my nature to be partisan. But I draw attention to

:12:31.:12:34.

the guidance on the women's against state pension and equality with's

:12:35.:12:43.

note. It says quite clearly that the campaign are demanding that all

:12:44.:12:47.

women born before 1951 be given their pension age of 60. It says no

:12:48.:12:52.

one will see any reaction in their income. It claims the rise in state

:12:53.:12:57.

pension age has been widely communicated. And it says that

:12:58.:13:04.

absolutely nothing more can be done. -- any reduction in their income.

:13:05.:13:10.

Again, it is wrong. They have lost income. The income they would have

:13:11.:13:14.

been paid out in the previous arrangements. They were not widely

:13:15.:13:21.

communicated, the changes. And they are not opposed to the equalisation

:13:22.:13:27.

of the state pension. They are petitioning over 155,000 signatures

:13:28.:13:32.

saying so explicitly. They do support it. What they want is what

:13:33.:13:36.

the government promised. Transitional arrangements. Of the

:13:37.:13:45.

4100 women in my constituency, affected by these changes, one of

:13:46.:13:50.

them recently told me "Throughout my life, a number of changes have

:13:51.:13:58.

impacted on me and my friends, such as an equal pay, dismissal for

:13:59.:14:02.

pregnancy and a lack of childcare. Does he agree with me there is still

:14:03.:14:06.

time for the government to correct this injustice and in the interests

:14:07.:14:10.

of being nonpartisan, please do the right thing and put in place

:14:11.:14:14.

transitional measures? She is entirely right. There are other

:14:15.:14:19.

injustices in the workplace and on payday that women have suffered in

:14:20.:14:24.

this country over generations. This is another one that has been heaped

:14:25.:14:29.

upon them. There are different arrangements that could be put in

:14:30.:14:36.

place. I will give way. Thank you. I am grateful. With the honourable

:14:37.:14:41.

gentleman take the opportunity to acknowledge a very serious injustice

:14:42.:14:45.

that has been suffered by the women born in the 50s who had been offered

:14:46.:14:49.

and have accepted retirement packages from their employers which

:14:50.:14:54.

have included a figure assuming they were going to retire at 60? With no

:14:55.:15:01.

surprise, the honourable lady who speaks with great erudition in this

:15:02.:15:06.

house highlights yet another injustice. I say again that the

:15:07.:15:10.

government must recognise this. They must bring forward some suggestions,

:15:11.:15:17.

because there are many ways they could mitigate this problem. There

:15:18.:15:20.

are lots of arrangements that could be put in place. I will list six.

:15:21.:15:28.

Before I do, I will give way. I am grateful. The case he is making now

:15:29.:15:34.

is absolutely right. The point is the government has made a mistake.

:15:35.:15:40.

It isn't too late for them to stand up and put things right and imagery

:15:41.:15:47.

of thousands of women and their husbands by this impact. -- the

:15:48.:15:53.

misery. They could put it right. Bickered and the Minister has five

:15:54.:15:57.

minutes to come up with what he wants to see. -- they could. I'm

:15:58.:16:04.

going to give him six suggestions. First of all, they could decide to

:16:05.:16:08.

delay the pension age increase till 2020. That is the option that the

:16:09.:16:16.

current pensions minister in the house of lords favours. They could

:16:17.:16:20.

cap the maximum state pension increase from the 2011 at at 12

:16:21.:16:27.

months, as her predecessor advocated. They could keep the

:16:28.:16:32.

qualifying age for pension credit on the previous timetable, helping out

:16:33.:16:37.

some of the poorest women in the category. As Labour suggested in

:16:38.:16:42.

2011. They could allow early access for those affected to take a reduced

:16:43.:16:47.

pension at an earlier age during the transition. They could extend the

:16:48.:16:52.

timetable for increasing the overall state pension by 18 months to reach

:16:53.:17:01.

66 by April 20 22. Finally, they could pay a lower state pension for

:17:02.:17:06.

a longer period throughout the pensionable age of the women

:17:07.:17:10.

affected. All of those things would of course have costs, but all of

:17:11.:17:15.

those things are ways in which the government could act. Or the need

:17:16.:17:19.

from the government is not more carping, but the world to get on and

:17:20.:17:27.

do something about it. -- the will. It would be helpful to put 3450

:17:28.:17:34.

women in my constituency... All six points. And someone has written to

:17:35.:17:40.

me who said that she never received the letter. She only found out from

:17:41.:17:45.

her workplace. She is now unemployed and has been for 20 months. She is

:17:46.:17:50.

looking hard for jobs. But she's worried now whether she will have to

:17:51.:17:57.

work more in order to make up for the lost contribution she has made.

:17:58.:18:02.

She is in a difficult position, no guidance. Why doesn't the government

:18:03.:18:08.

help her? He speaks with passion and knowledge about the 4000 odd women

:18:09.:18:12.

in his constituency. There are thousands of women in his

:18:13.:18:19.

constituency -- our constituencies. One of those must be put in place.

:18:20.:18:27.

Constituents like Mrs Cox in my constituency do not object to the

:18:28.:18:31.

principle of equalisation. But they do object to the point that he is

:18:32.:18:38.

quite rightly making about speed and scale of change. That is why his

:18:39.:18:41.

point about transitional arrangements are so important. Can

:18:42.:18:49.

he also deal with the insidious invasion of responsibility among

:18:50.:18:54.

some members opposite who are trying to blame the European Union rather

:18:55.:18:58.

than their own government's decision for the measures they have taken.

:18:59.:19:02.

This is not happening in other countries in this way. It is their

:19:03.:19:07.

decision and though one else's. That is where he is right now, blaming

:19:08.:19:12.

them for his sins about in action. Mrs Cox speaks entirely for all of

:19:13.:19:18.

the women in the campaign who are not opposed to the equalisation at

:19:19.:19:28.

65 or 66. But they are opposed to the injustices being visited upon

:19:29.:19:39.

them. The truth is we have had quite enough talk about this. The sins are

:19:40.:19:45.

very well-known and the government should act. They were their bills in

:19:46.:19:53.

95 and 2011 and their mistakes and it is for them to put it right.

:19:54.:19:58.

Women in Britain have suffered inequality in the workplace and on

:19:59.:20:02.

payday for far too long. No government should compound that fact

:20:03.:20:07.

when the carers and the grafters in our society, whom we rely on so

:20:08.:20:12.

much, come to their retirement date. There is a budget in three weeks.

:20:13.:20:17.

And the Chancellor had a golden opportunity to rise to the challenge

:20:18.:20:27.

and put in place one the six variants of transitional

:20:28.:20:29.

arrangements that I have talked about today. And he would be well

:20:30.:20:30.

advised to do so. As my friend mentions the budget,

:20:31.:20:39.

would he agree with me that given cooperation tax cuts and cuts to

:20:40.:20:44.

inheritance tax we saw in the chance' most recent budget, he

:20:45.:20:49.

clearly has the will to spend, and he must pay attention now to the

:20:50.:20:58.

Waspi campaign. At the last budget he found ?27 billion extra in tax

:20:59.:21:03.

revenues, a handy windfall down the back of the sofa. But the Waspi

:21:04.:21:07.

women will have heard he didn't spend a red cent of it on them, and

:21:08.:21:13.

he could have done. If he continues to play the Waspi women for fools,

:21:14.:21:18.

and continues to take our pensioners for granted, he will live to regret

:21:19.:21:25.

it. And that is a sentiment that I think we can share right across this

:21:26.:21:29.

house. It's why not a single Conservative member chose to vote

:21:30.:21:36.

against either of the previous calls for a transitional arrangements in

:21:37.:21:39.

any of the debates we have helped. It's why so many of the Conservative

:21:40.:21:44.

backbenchers have pledged the support to the Waspi campaign. And

:21:45.:21:49.

it's why this issue will not go away without action from the government.

:21:50.:21:55.

In conclusion, I give way to the campaign for Eccles. I'm grateful to

:21:56.:22:01.

my honourable friend for giving way, I want to make sure we don't have

:22:02.:22:04.

the same excuses from the Minister when he comes to speak in a moment

:22:05.:22:08.

that he has made before, that equalisation was necessary to meet

:22:09.:22:13.

the UK obligations under EU law, is what we heard, and what members

:22:14.:22:16.

opposite have been writing out, but that is not true. The interesting

:22:17.:22:23.

thing about changing previous legislation is that Poland is now

:22:24.:22:27.

moving legislation to reverse the reforms they have previously made

:22:28.:22:30.

because they clearly realise that they got it wrong, like this

:22:31.:22:35.

government has got it wrong. Poland has realised they moved too fast,

:22:36.:22:39.

France and Germany have done the same. Countries and governments

:22:40.:22:43.

across Europe, right-wing governments in parts of Europe, have

:22:44.:22:48.

acknowledged they made a mistake and backtracking. Only this government

:22:49.:22:52.

refuses to acknowledge any mistake and refuses to acknowledge that they

:22:53.:22:56.

have any culpability or responsibility. This issue will not

:22:57.:23:01.

go away. The ministers should come to the dispatch box in a moment and

:23:02.:23:07.

offer us some glint of sunlight, some hope for the Waspi women, that

:23:08.:23:11.

they have heard their campaign and they will do something about it. And

:23:12.:23:16.

if they do not, I urge all members across the back benches to do so on

:23:17.:23:17.

their behalf. Madam Deputy Speaker, colleagues,

:23:18.:23:33.

ladies and gentlemen, can I just say that the honourable gentleman has

:23:34.:23:36.

just done a speech which is more politics than substance. And given

:23:37.:23:43.

that he has declared himself to be a leadership contender in the event of

:23:44.:23:48.

a leadership contest for Labour, it is clear that his audience today was

:23:49.:23:56.

more towards getting nominated as the leader, rather than dealing with

:23:57.:24:05.

the substance at hand. There is chuntering from the front bench,

:24:06.:24:09.

what about the women? Besides the, what about the women and the debate

:24:10.:24:12.

focused on the women, what about some substance. I wish to make a

:24:13.:24:23.

little bit of progress. I will give way but I wish to make a little bit

:24:24.:24:29.

of progress. Honourable members will be aware that the women state

:24:30.:24:34.

pension age was changed in 1995 to equalise with the state pension age

:24:35.:24:39.

for men. Equalisation was then accelerated in the pensions act of

:24:40.:24:45.

2011 following extensive debates in both houses of parliament. Those

:24:46.:24:50.

changes are about bringing gender equality to pensions for the first

:24:51.:24:55.

time. They are about reflecting rises in life expectancy, life

:24:56.:25:00.

expectancy is that continue to rise for both men and women, and which

:25:01.:25:06.

will bring spending on pensions to most more sustainable levels. I will

:25:07.:25:13.

give way. I want to point out to him that I think the audience for today

:25:14.:25:18.

are the huge numbers of women across the country who are personally

:25:19.:25:21.

affected by this. One of them has written to me to say, when

:25:22.:25:26.

equalisation for pensions was first introduced in 1995, I was informed I

:25:27.:25:30.

could collect state pension at 64. But in 2011 that moved to 66. This

:25:31.:25:36.

is very unfair to me and many other women. It affects bearing the brunt

:25:37.:25:42.

of the changes twice. Labour has recognised that, that is why we have

:25:43.:25:48.

a motion today for transitional arrangements and why doesn't the

:25:49.:25:54.

minister back us on this? As far as the context of the honourable Lady's

:25:55.:26:00.

question is concerned, I will address those issues in my speech

:26:01.:26:04.

later on. But she's absolutely right to say that the audience for today's

:26:05.:26:08.

debate are the women concerned. And I in my speech intends to address

:26:09.:26:13.

the substance of the subject rather than be politics. I wonder if he was

:26:14.:26:20.

struck as I was in the 30 minutes the Shadow Minister took to set up

:26:21.:26:24.

the challenges we faced, he didn't actually tell us at all what the

:26:25.:26:28.

Labour Party would do, or which of the six changes he would commit to,

:26:29.:26:31.

or whether he would commit to all six of those changes. My honourable

:26:32.:26:37.

friend is absolutely right. It was a speech full of bluster, which made

:26:38.:26:46.

no options. What he failed to do was to recognise the cost, to speak

:26:47.:26:53.

about the cost, or explain why it was that this issue was not in the

:26:54.:26:59.

Labour Party manifesto. The luxury of opposition is to be able to spend

:27:00.:27:06.

money after which they have no account or responsibility. The

:27:07.:27:09.

difficulty of government is to actually deal with taxpayers money

:27:10.:27:13.

and take the difficult decisions that are necessary. I will give way.

:27:14.:27:21.

The minister speaks as if in the last Parliament we did nothing to

:27:22.:27:26.

bring this to the government's attention. That is straightforwardly

:27:27.:27:31.

not true. I participated in debate after debate with the then member

:27:32.:27:34.

for Leeds West, who brought it to the government's attention time and

:27:35.:27:38.

again. We have had so many debates about it, can't get on and talk

:27:39.:27:44.

about what we will do about it. I will come later in my speech to the

:27:45.:27:48.

debate we had in 2011, but if she talks about previous governments,

:27:49.:27:53.

can I gently remind her of the 13 years of Labour government, the ten

:27:54.:27:57.

pensions ministers who were there, one of whom was in place twice in

:27:58.:28:02.

his job, and the nine secretaries of state for work and pensions, and she

:28:03.:28:06.

might just, in the interest of fairness, she might wish to

:28:07.:28:12.

acknowledge the absolute limited work, if any, that was done during

:28:13.:28:17.

13 years of Labour government to put on as they put it, matters right. I

:28:18.:28:23.

will give way. He says it was limited, but can I point out that a

:28:24.:28:28.

couple of weeks ago it was conceded by his government that Labour spent

:28:29.:28:32.

over ?500 million advertising these changes and sent out over 800,000

:28:33.:28:38.

letters, in stark contrast to the previous Conservative cupboard who

:28:39.:28:44.

did, frankly, down all. -- Conservative government. If he is so

:28:45.:28:50.

proud of what the Labour government did before, why he is he

:28:51.:28:55.

complaining? It had very little impact, otherwise he would not have

:28:56.:29:02.

the these comments. When it comes to equalisation, how much leeway would

:29:03.:29:05.

does the government have under EU law? EU law does require us to have

:29:06.:29:15.

equalisation of pension ages. In my speech later I will come to

:29:16.:29:22.

countries who have already achieved what we are still end def ring to

:29:23.:29:28.

achieve. Incidentally, when the Shadow Secretary of State spoke of

:29:29.:29:32.

Jimmy, he's wrong, they have already achieved equalisation. -- spoke of

:29:33.:29:38.

Germany. The honourable gentleman ought to recognise that while EU law

:29:39.:29:43.

requires equalisation of pension ages, it also allows for

:29:44.:29:47.

transitional arrangements in reaching that stage. Frankly, it's

:29:48.:29:55.

disingenuous to suggest otherwise. I will come to transitional

:29:56.:30:01.

arrangements a little later on. Thank you. There are women affected

:30:02.:30:06.

by this issue in Northumberland who are likely to be in serious

:30:07.:30:10.

financial difficulty, not most, but a view as a result of these changes.

:30:11.:30:14.

My concern is for the small number of women and I would be grateful if

:30:15.:30:18.

the minister and colleagues on these benches would like to look at these

:30:19.:30:21.

small group who are under financial pressures. The minister is always

:30:22.:30:26.

pleased to have meetings with colleagues and I more than happy to

:30:27.:30:29.

meet with her along with other people. I want to make some

:30:30.:30:34.

progress, I'm still my first page. I will give way and then I want to

:30:35.:30:40.

some progress. My honourable friend is saying something things about the

:30:41.:30:43.

opposition and they don't like it. What about a fair thing about the

:30:44.:30:47.

women directly elected. How people born within 12 months have a

:30:48.:30:51.

retirement age of nearly three years apart. That's the issue, and that is

:30:52.:30:55.

where better transitional arrangement is needed. We know this

:30:56.:30:58.

covenant has had to put right previous things previous governance

:30:59.:31:06.

have got wrong. If I'm allowed the opportunity to make some progress

:31:07.:31:10.

then I will talk about transitional arrangements and what we are doing.

:31:11.:31:14.

I will give way but I wish to make some progress. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:31:15.:31:20.

there has been much by way of debate in terms of this whole issue. In

:31:21.:31:25.

recent weeks we have had several debates. It comes down to two

:31:26.:31:32.

fundamental issues. First, the cause to undo the 2011 pension changes.

:31:33.:31:39.

The cost of undoing that would be over ?30 billion. The second issue

:31:40.:31:48.

is that there calls by some to even further. And to unravel the 1995

:31:49.:31:56.

pension reforms. Yes, there are many people, including people in Waspi,

:31:57.:32:03.

who want to unravel 1995. It's out there on the Internet for people to

:32:04.:32:10.

see. So let's not try to deny the two options being debated out there.

:32:11.:32:13.

I said at the outset I would talk about the substance. I will talk

:32:14.:32:17.

about both options. I will give way in a moment but I wish to continue.

:32:18.:32:25.

If we unravel the 1995 pension reforms, as many people outside want

:32:26.:32:31.

us to do, that would cost ?77 billion up to 2020 and 2021. And

:32:32.:32:38.

costs would continue to accrue after that period. I will give way. He

:32:39.:32:50.

repeats this calumny that the Waspi women are saying, do not equalise

:32:51.:32:53.

pensions and get rid of the 1995 act. That is exactly what the whip's

:32:54.:32:59.

crib sheet says, but he knows that's not true. It's one comment made by

:33:00.:33:04.

one woman among hundreds of thousands on Facebook. It's not what

:33:05.:33:08.

they said to the committee. It's not what they said on their petition,

:33:09.:33:15.

and will he withdraw it? I am simply speaking from personal experience of

:33:16.:33:19.

women I have spoken to. Women have spoken to me and say they want a

:33:20.:33:24.

restoration to 1995. There are colleagues in this house who have

:33:25.:33:28.

had people in their surgeries speaking of 1995. He may not have

:33:29.:33:32.

had it, and he might be out of touch, but the rest of us are not.

:33:33.:33:45.

When we talk of ?77 billion, or even ?30 billion, we are not talking here

:33:46.:33:49.

of a few million pounds, we are not talking of a few billion pounds. In

:33:50.:33:57.

both contexts we are talking of tens of billions of pounds. And that

:33:58.:34:05.

situation is simply not sustainable. When he says that 30 billion power

:34:06.:34:13.

is being taken as a result of the 2011 changes, what he is saying is

:34:14.:34:18.

that there is a transfer from one of the poorest groups in our society,

:34:19.:34:22.

which is women in their 50s, a single group of women who were the

:34:23.:34:29.

largest growth in unemployment in the last Coalition Government, who

:34:30.:34:32.

are more likely to have to work after retirement than men, and let

:34:33.:34:40.

me say, women work after retirement, two thirds of them working on the

:34:41.:34:44.

lowest wage level, unlike men who work after retirement where two

:34:45.:34:47.

thirds of them are working on the highest wage levels. What's he

:34:48.:34:52.

saying on picking the pockets on the poorest women of our society? I will

:34:53.:34:58.

address some of the points the honourable lady refers to, because

:34:59.:35:03.

there is a broader context to this rather than simply the issue of the

:35:04.:35:15.

pension age. If given the opportunity I would like to make

:35:16.:35:17.

some progress. The reality is that people are living longer and living

:35:18.:35:23.

healthier lives and this is to be welcomed but it increases the

:35:24.:35:25.

pressure on the state pension scheme. As government we have

:35:26.:35:30.

responsibility to keep it affordable and sustainable for future

:35:31.:35:34.

generations. The changes that have been made are important to making

:35:35.:35:39.

that happen. They also reflect the way both men and women live their

:35:40.:35:45.

lives now rather than in the 1940s, a point I will come back to later. I

:35:46.:35:51.

want to tackle head on one particular issue. Many honourable

:35:52.:35:55.

members have talked about the need for transitional arrangements.

:35:56.:36:01.

I would point out to honourable members the extensive debates and

:36:02.:36:13.

discussions that took place at that time that the legislation was

:36:14.:36:15.

passing through Parliament. Let me quote Hansard from the time the

:36:16.:36:22.

pensions Bill received its second reading in June 20 11. Volume 5:30,

:36:23.:36:32.

column 52. It was made clear by the Secretary of State that equalisation

:36:33.:36:36.

of the state pension age would take place in 2018, and he said, we have

:36:37.:36:43.

no plans to change equalisation in 2018 or the age of 66 for men and

:36:44.:36:50.

women in 2020. He then went on, we will consider transitional

:36:51.:36:58.

arrangements. Yes, he said, we will consider transitional arrangements.

:36:59.:37:04.

Four months later, after the Secretary of State said those words,

:37:05.:37:10.

and after considering the matter further, a concession was indeed

:37:11.:37:17.

considered by this House and a concession, transitional

:37:18.:37:21.

arrangements, was made at third reading. That transitional

:37:22.:37:28.

arrangement was worth over ?1 billion to reduce the delay that

:37:29.:37:33.

anyone with experience in claiming their pension and a time element was

:37:34.:37:39.

reduced from two years to 18 months, so when people say that transitional

:37:40.:37:45.

arrangements should have been made, I ask them to look back at the

:37:46.:37:51.

record, to consider what was actually said, to consider what was

:37:52.:37:59.

subsequently done for months later, that was transitional arrangements.

:38:00.:38:04.

They passed to the House, there was extensive debate and engagement with

:38:05.:38:10.

relative stakeholders and that was done. I will give way. I thank him

:38:11.:38:16.

for giving way, I think this is the fourth time I have been involved in

:38:17.:38:21.

a debate where he is answering these issues and he is still would fully

:38:22.:38:27.

inadequate at answering this in justice, so will he answer might

:38:28.:38:32.

constituent, who is four months outside this measure and was only

:38:33.:38:38.

notified in 2012 that she would have to wait a further four years, less

:38:39.:38:43.

than a year before her 60th birthday. How is that fair after she

:38:44.:38:48.

has paid into the system all her working life? I will address the

:38:49.:38:56.

issue of little vacation later. He has been extensive in his

:38:57.:39:00.

description of the discussions that took place in this House but the

:39:01.:39:07.

ladies concerned did not know. It is unreasonable of them to read Hansard

:39:08.:39:10.

to understand what their pension age should be. Women tell me about the

:39:11.:39:17.

changes they and their families have experienced because of this. It is

:39:18.:39:20.

not good enough and the minister must listen and act. She is right,

:39:21.:39:28.

the public are uninterested in Hansard, but people in this House

:39:29.:39:34.

should read Hansard rather than asking Werther transitional

:39:35.:39:37.

arrangements, they should acknowledge they were made. Isn't

:39:38.:39:44.

this the fact that people were not aware of the 1995 pensions at, the

:39:45.:39:50.

Labour government spent ?5 million of communication and is this not a

:39:51.:39:55.

failure of that government that they have failed the woman involved? He

:39:56.:40:03.

is right, 13 years of Labour government, ten pensions ministers,

:40:04.:40:08.

nine secretaries of state for Work and Pensions, they failed these

:40:09.:40:13.

women and now refuse to accept responsibility, they refused to

:40:14.:40:19.

acknowledge the arithmetics of the pensions budget and seek to blame

:40:20.:40:25.

this dispatch box without coming forward with any concrete repose.

:40:26.:40:31.

Any sort. They refused to commit themselves, as I said, the look

:40:32.:40:37.

Surrey of opposition is to speak about spending huge sums of money

:40:38.:40:42.

without the responsibility of taking the difficult decisions we have to

:40:43.:40:49.

take. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have given way many times and we are now

:40:50.:40:53.

getting to the stage where I am afraid MPs are repeating issues

:40:54.:41:00.

already raised. I am mindful a lot of people have put in to speak,

:41:01.:41:05.

nobody can accuse me of not being generous, I wish to make progress.

:41:06.:41:11.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the changes that were made, the transitional

:41:12.:41:20.

arrangements in 2011 benefited 250,000 women who would otherwise

:41:21.:41:25.

have had a delay of up to two years and over 80% of those affected, the

:41:26.:41:30.

increase in the time period will be no more than 12 months. The House

:41:31.:41:35.

voted for this amendment, a concession was called for, it was

:41:36.:41:40.

considered by the Government, it was put forward by the Government and it

:41:41.:41:46.

was accepted and voted for by this House. The Government promised to

:41:47.:41:53.

consider transitional arrangements in 2011 when the legislation was

:41:54.:41:56.

going through and that is what the Government delivered. The reduction

:41:57.:42:03.

in the time period from two years to 18 months at a cost of ?1.1 billion.

:42:04.:42:10.

That shows the Government was listening to the concerns of members

:42:11.:42:18.

and responded at the time. Exactly how much of that money went to the

:42:19.:42:27.

woman concerned? Madam Deputy Speaker, the honourable lady needs

:42:28.:42:33.

to appreciate that the concept of dealing with pensions and many is

:42:34.:42:40.

that a concession was made, that concession was made by the taxpayer,

:42:41.:42:49.

and the total cost was ?1.1 billion. As I said, and I am sorry she hasn't

:42:50.:42:56.

got that message yet and I am sorry she doesn't appreciate there was a

:42:57.:43:03.

time shortage of six months. Order. There is a lot are shouting out. If

:43:04.:43:07.

the minister wants to take an intervention he will but if we can

:43:08.:43:11.

stop shouting that would help us proceed with the debate. The issue

:43:12.:43:22.

of the difficulty is -- of little vacation, another reason some have

:43:23.:43:27.

called for is for the legislation to be revisited because it needs to be

:43:28.:43:32.

looked at again but I do not accept the Government has failed to make

:43:33.:43:37.

every effort to notify the women affected. I wish to make progress.

:43:38.:43:43.

Following the 2011 act we wrote to all those directly affected to

:43:44.:43:48.

inform them of the change to their state pension age. 5 million letters

:43:49.:43:54.

were sent by DWP and the sending of the letters to those affected was

:43:55.:43:59.

between January 2012 and November 20 13. Letters to those whose state

:44:00.:44:06.

pension age was set either 1995 back only were sent between April 2009,

:44:07.:44:13.

when Labour were still in government, and finished in March 20

:44:14.:44:20.

11. As a result of those efforts, in 2012 a survey I DWP found that only

:44:21.:44:27.

6% of women who work with in ten years of receiving their pension

:44:28.:44:31.

thought their state pension age was still six-day. The Shadow Work and

:44:32.:44:38.

Pensions Secretary mentioned several surveys have been done and was

:44:39.:44:43.

somewhat selective in the ones he referred to. The one by DWP, who

:44:44.:44:49.

were running and in charge of the pension scheme, has, I would say, a

:44:50.:44:56.

fair amount of validity, and only six amount of women who were within

:44:57.:45:01.

six years of receiving their pension thought it was still six-day. For

:45:02.:45:09.

the original 1995 changes, in 2004, nearly three quarters of those

:45:10.:45:14.

between 45 and 54 were aware of changes to the state pension. Our

:45:15.:45:18.

campaign has focused on raising awareness of the changes and

:45:19.:45:22.

encouraging those closest to the pension age to get a personalised

:45:23.:45:29.

state pension statement. Them grateful to him for giving way and

:45:30.:45:33.

despite the chuntering from the front bench I can assure him and

:45:34.:45:41.

everyone else that this is my question, we heard earlier from the

:45:42.:45:46.

shadow pensions Secretary that he believed the communication on this

:45:47.:45:50.

had been appalling. He overlooked that his own government had

:45:51.:45:56.

estimated that 70% of women had been informed. He overdubbed that the

:45:57.:46:00.

evidence to the select committee, 600 mentions of the 1995 changes

:46:01.:46:07.

were in the media at that time, anti-overlooked that in terms of the

:46:08.:46:11.

briefing on the state pension at, there were 17 million forecasts

:46:12.:46:17.

issued IE the Labour government between 2004 and 2006. Would he

:46:18.:46:23.

agree with me that although some women were not informed there were

:46:24.:46:30.

also many who were. A grateful to my honourable friend for putting those

:46:31.:46:35.

facts on the record. But I am very sorry that in the interest of

:46:36.:46:39.

substance, which might friend was speaking about, all we got was the

:46:40.:46:45.

Yanbu politics we have come to expect from the other side. When it

:46:46.:46:52.

comes to substance and fax, and anyone watching this debate at home

:46:53.:46:56.

can see for themselves that they do not want to know the substance or

:46:57.:47:00.

the fax. All they are interested in is politics and this is too

:47:01.:47:05.

important an issue to be treated with political naivete that some

:47:06.:47:10.

people on the other side are treating it. This is an important

:47:11.:47:15.

subject and we aren't dealing with it and giving it the seriousness it

:47:16.:47:22.

deserves. I will give way. I thank them for giving way. He is clearly

:47:23.:47:28.

in a difficult corner but I wondered if he could clarify for the hosts

:47:29.:47:32.

whether the Government now accepts that in women or anybody needs at

:47:33.:47:40.

least ten years medication of a pension change to plan and prepare,

:47:41.:47:46.

and if the Government accept that, could he explain why it does not

:47:47.:47:49.

apply to these women -- notification? She will be aware that

:47:50.:47:55.

the Romans have to take difficult his visions. Considering the state

:47:56.:48:01.

of the big, May, the financial position this ever meant came into,

:48:02.:48:08.

and one of her own colleagues said there was no money left, given those

:48:09.:48:15.

were the circumstances, given the longevity of life spans for men and

:48:16.:48:20.

women, the Government had to take difficult decisions as all

:48:21.:48:25.

governments have to do when they are in government. This Government had

:48:26.:48:30.

to take difficult decisions because they were necessary. We cannot

:48:31.:48:38.

look... I will give way. I thank him for giving way. I think the women of

:48:39.:48:46.

this country will be watching this debate and his comments with a

:48:47.:48:49.

mixture of concern and disappointment. He is giving us

:48:50.:48:53.

history lessons and trying to apportion blame. We have immaterial

:48:54.:48:59.

problem now that the Government needs to address, so stop looking

:49:00.:49:03.

backwards and start looking forwards, start caring for the women

:49:04.:49:07.

of this country. This House has already said I am over whelming

:49:08.:49:13.

majority had wanted the Government to look again at the transitional

:49:14.:49:16.

arrangements, so have you looked again at it, has your position

:49:17.:49:22.

unchanged since the last time we debated it and will you tell us what

:49:23.:49:29.

your change in position is? If there weren't many speeches in the middle

:49:30.:49:33.

of my speech, I will answer these questions in due course. We cannot

:49:34.:49:39.

look at the changes to women's state pension age in isolation without

:49:40.:49:44.

acknowledging the changes in life expectancy. Huge progress made in

:49:45.:49:51.

opening employment opportunities for women and a wider package of

:49:52.:49:56.

reforms, first, life expectancy. The reason for these reforms is that

:49:57.:50:00.

people are not just living longer but staying healthy for longer. In

:50:01.:50:08.

just a decade, the length of time 65-year-olds will live in good

:50:09.:50:11.

health has surged by over a year. This is welcome news that the

:50:12.:50:18.

reality is that this puts increasing pressure on the state pension

:50:19.:50:24.

scheme. Any government has a duty to ensure the sustainability of the

:50:25.:50:28.

state pension system and it would have been responsible for this

:50:29.:50:32.

Government or the Coalition Government at the time to ignore

:50:33.:50:38.

those developments. I will give way. Does he agree every government has

:50:39.:50:44.

the responsibility to be fair to the people of this country, and women

:50:45.:50:48.

are not only affected either goalposts moving but also those

:50:49.:50:54.

benefits they would get at retirement age have gone as well, so

:50:55.:50:58.

this is a double whammy on this group of women who have worked hard

:50:59.:51:03.

all their lives. The Government has a duty to all its citizens and it

:51:04.:51:09.

has to take difficult decisions and play a balancing act, and it is

:51:10.:51:14.

important to bear that in mind when people talk about spending ?30

:51:15.:51:20.

billion were ?77 billion. That is serious money and difficult

:51:21.:51:24.

decisions have to be taken to make sure there is a balancing act. The

:51:25.:51:30.

landscape for women and employment has completely changed since the

:51:31.:51:36.

1940s. Female employment is now at record levels with over 14 million

:51:37.:51:42.

women in work, a record rate of nearly 70%. The number of older

:51:43.:51:51.

women aged 60 to 64 in work is also at a high record, and that is at a

:51:52.:51:58.

record high. There are more older women in work than this time last

:51:59.:52:03.

year. In the past decade women have on average stop working later than

:52:04.:52:09.

60. In 2016, the average was 63, and we know more women then work would

:52:10.:52:15.

prefer to work flexibly or part time before retiring. My honourable

:52:16.:52:21.

friend for Newcastle North just said to the minister that it would be at

:52:22.:52:26.

least ten years for these little vocations to be brought in. It

:52:27.:52:31.

seemed out confirming that women are now paying for the planned deficit

:52:32.:52:38.

reduction? Can I ask what he says to my and is a joint who is now

:52:39.:52:43.

disabled, cannot make up the six years she has lost in the scheme,

:52:44.:52:47.

what transitional help can he give to her? The honourable gentleman

:52:48.:52:55.

repeated the question asked before and I refer him to my previous

:52:56.:53:01.

answer. I will turn to other issues later given the opportunity to make

:53:02.:53:08.

progress. We need a pension system that acknowledges the changes made

:53:09.:53:12.

in the same way that we responded to supporting older workers in the

:53:13.:53:16.

Labour market. We have abolished the default retirement age and extended

:53:17.:53:20.

the right to request flexible working to all employees, and we're

:53:21.:53:26.

working with businesses to encourage the employment and retention of

:53:27.:53:30.

workers. Third, to our wider reforms. I will give way. On the

:53:31.:53:36.

issue of transitional funding, isn't it about time the Government started

:53:37.:53:43.

tackling rich corporate tax dodgers and stop dodging poor women

:53:44.:53:49.

pensioners? AM sure he was delighted he was able to score his cheap

:53:50.:53:54.

political point. Thirdly, to our wider reforms. We inherited one of

:53:55.:54:00.

the most complex state pension systems in the world. Too many

:54:01.:54:06.

people did not understand what they could expect upon retiring, so from

:54:07.:54:11.

April this year we are introducing a simpler state pension that will give

:54:12.:54:15.

people a clear picture of what the state will provide so they can build

:54:16.:54:20.

their own savings. We have the triple lock, so pensioners will see

:54:21.:54:24.

their basic state pension go up by at least 2.5% every year, as it has

:54:25.:54:31.

since 2011. That means from this April, pensioners will receive a B6

:54:32.:54:38.

state pension over ?1100 a year higher than at the last Parliament.

:54:39.:54:42.

It is important for people to acknowledge matters in a broader

:54:43.:54:48.

context rather than simply a single issue context in which many

:54:49.:54:51.

colleagues here seem to treat the problem. I am grateful indeed for

:54:52.:55:01.

allowing me to intervene. In response to early intervention by a

:55:02.:55:05.

lady who has now left the chamber, the minister replied that ministers

:55:06.:55:11.

were always happy to meet with party colleagues to discuss difficult

:55:12.:55:20.

cases. Unlike the pensions minister, who has refused to come to Northern

:55:21.:55:25.

Ireland and made women board in the 1950s who were adversely affected by

:55:26.:55:29.

this, would he have the grace to come to Northern Ireland, meet Mike

:55:30.:55:34.

constituents and other woman affected through Northern Ireland

:55:35.:55:38.

and explain why this Government would not introduce transitional

:55:39.:55:44.

measures? Before the minister gets back on his feet, we have 25

:55:45.:55:49.

speakers wanting to catch my eye, we hope to have the division at 4:50pm,

:55:50.:55:56.

we still have another front bench speech to come, interventions are

:55:57.:56:01.

long and if the minister could start concluding his remarks, we might be

:56:02.:56:07.

able to get everyone in, but just a reminder we are tight on time. I'd

:56:08.:56:13.

take on board what you say and I am coming to a conclusion. I would be

:56:14.:56:17.

happy to meet with colleagues, though the venue would have to be

:56:18.:56:22.

negotiated. It is not every day I go to Northern Ireland but if she wants

:56:23.:56:27.

to meet me, I am happy to have one in London. We have ensured more

:56:28.:56:34.

people are saving for their retirement by requiring employers to

:56:35.:56:40.

in role their staff into a pension with an auto enrolment scheme. In

:56:41.:56:46.

addition to these reforms, we have continued to cold on a range of

:56:47.:56:52.

other pension benefits, including a permanent increase to cold weather

:56:53.:56:57.

payments, protection of winter fuel payments and free bus passes. I will

:56:58.:57:05.

not give way. We are providing greater security and choice for

:57:06.:57:08.

people in retirement while also ensuring the system is sustainable

:57:09.:57:15.

for the future. That is a record on pensions and pensioners on which

:57:16.:57:21.

this side of the House can be proud. Parliament has debated the issue of

:57:22.:57:25.

accelerating changes to the state pension. We listen to all arguments

:57:26.:57:32.

for and against at the time of the 2011 pensions act. When we did make

:57:33.:57:38.

transitional arrangements. We are far behind other countries in Europe

:57:39.:57:43.

on the issue of equalisation. Germany, Denmark, the Czech Republic

:57:44.:57:48.

and Greece have already equalised the pension age for men and women.

:57:49.:57:55.

We have to look to the future, not persistent in looking backwards.

:57:56.:57:59.

These changes are about putting our pension system on a secure financial

:58:00.:58:05.

footing rather than continuous confusion for those affected and

:58:06.:58:10.

further debate. We should build on the high levels of awareness we

:58:11.:58:16.

already have and continue to promote flexibility, choice and security for

:58:17.:58:21.

older people. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are no plans on the part of

:58:22.:58:24.

the Government to make policy changes. Before I call the SNP

:58:25.:58:30.

spokesperson, I just want to say I will start with the time limit of

:58:31.:58:36.

four minutes on back and speeches but if we have too many

:58:37.:58:39.

interventions I will have to bring that down. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:58:40.:58:47.

Speaker. I listen to the minister for 35 million and not think of a

:58:48.:58:55.

time I have been so utterly impressed, 35 minutes to say

:58:56.:58:59.

absolutely nothing and to give no hope whatsoever to the woman faced

:59:00.:59:06.

with pension inequality. Talk about a that is out of touch and the game

:59:07.:59:11.

was given away by one of his friends sitting on the backbenches, the lady

:59:12.:59:16.

for Mid Bedfordshire, who said to the Government cheap is one of these

:59:17.:59:22.

ladies caught up in this. The Government know who she is, where

:59:23.:59:26.

she lives, but she hasn't heard anything. Has the minister got

:59:27.:59:32.

anything to say to her? Nothing, just sheer contempt from this

:59:33.:59:38.

Government for the Waspi women and the Waspi campaign. He and the

:59:39.:59:43.

Government should be ashamed of themselves. A Conservative MP said

:59:44.:59:50.

to me last night, where we having another debate on this issue? I say

:59:51.:59:56.

to the House, I have some sympathy with this view. We should not be

:59:57.:00:00.

having this debate but for one simple and straightforward recent

:00:01.:00:04.

that government should have acted by now to end this injustice. Let's

:00:05.:00:10.

remind ourselves of the fundamentals. The SNP, I am sure

:00:11.:00:17.

along with everyone else, I agree with pension equalisation but we do

:00:18.:00:22.

not support the unfair manner in which the changes were made. The

:00:23.:00:29.

Government must explore up options for transitional arrangements to

:00:30.:00:35.

protect retirement plans for females affected, and to hear that key

:00:36.:00:39.

billion tossed out by the minister, he did not say that is the years up

:00:40.:00:47.

to 2026. Let me give him one suggestion. One of the things we are

:00:48.:00:54.

consulting on his pension tax relief, which cost 35 million. Why

:00:55.:01:00.

don't we agree on that and give some hope to the problems pensioners are

:01:01.:01:11.

facing? Parliament voted unanimously on the 7th of January on a motion

:01:12.:01:16.

the Government should put mitigation into place to protect those women

:01:17.:01:23.

affected by this. The Prime Minister speaks about the sovereignty of this

:01:24.:01:26.

House, why have this Government ignored that vote, why have they

:01:27.:01:33.

ignored the will of the House, you cannot ignore the will of the House

:01:34.:01:36.

at random with that legitimate demands of the Waspy people, you are

:01:37.:01:42.

taking this House and the people of this country with contempt. Where is

:01:43.:01:54.

parliamentary democracy? Does he share my concern that the minister

:01:55.:01:59.

has basically confirmed from the dispatch box that this

:02:00.:02:02.

discrimination is a price worth paying for deficit reduction? She

:02:03.:02:10.

makes a very good point. The woman in the Waspi campaign are paying for

:02:11.:02:14.

the failures of the economic Lossie of this Government. Let me remind

:02:15.:02:20.

the House we have a Conservative government... The honourable

:02:21.:02:27.

gentleman did not give way earlier because I needed to correct him on a

:02:28.:02:32.

point of fact. The evidence given... That is not a point of burger. He

:02:33.:02:38.

can't give way if he wants to but he does not have to. I will give way

:02:39.:02:44.

because I will treat this House with the respect that was not shown to

:02:45.:02:48.

the Waspi women by this Government, but she is correct, I will answer

:02:49.:02:54.

the point and give way, because austerity is a political choice. We

:02:55.:03:00.

argued at the election campaign that if the Government increase spending

:03:01.:03:07.

by 0.5% per annum for each year in Parliament, he would increase

:03:08.:03:11.

spending in this country by 140 billion but still reduced the

:03:12.:03:16.

deficit to 2% of national income by the end of Parliament. It would mean

:03:17.:03:21.

the German or not punishing the woman at back then by this. Show

:03:22.:03:25.

some leadership, take some action and addressed this properly. He said

:03:26.:03:32.

earlier that the cost would be some 29 billion by 2026. He is wrong. The

:03:33.:03:38.

evidence to the select committee is that the bill and total cost 77

:03:39.:03:45.

billion, in Westminster Hall he said his party would commit to changing

:03:46.:03:53.

that they were ever in the unlikely position of having responsibility

:03:54.:03:56.

for these things. Would he confirm his party leader will say that if

:03:57.:04:02.

ever the SNP had responsibility for this, they would commit ?77 billion.

:04:03.:04:10.

Good grief! Have you ever heard such nonsense as I have just heard from

:04:11.:04:14.

the honourable member? I never committed the SNP for anything. I

:04:15.:04:20.

did make suggestions what the Government may do and to toss around

:04:21.:04:26.

the 77 million, which referred to the 95 at, I have never done. House

:04:27.:04:33.

of Commons library figures show the cost of austerity to 2011, so let's

:04:34.:04:40.

get the facts right rather than the nonsense from benches opposite. We

:04:41.:04:43.

will tell the truth, you can spin the nonsense. The Government keep

:04:44.:04:50.

telling us this matter was decided in 2011 and we should meekly

:04:51.:04:56.

accepted. What arrogance. I and every member elected in May 2013

:04:57.:05:01.

were elected to this place to represent the views of our

:05:02.:05:05.

constituents in this Parliament. If we want to change the 2011 at we can

:05:06.:05:09.

do with the minister should stop hiding behind that. We cannot be

:05:10.:05:14.

bound by the mistakes of parliaments of the past. We're here to speak up

:05:15.:05:20.

for our constituents, to hold the Government to account and to make

:05:21.:05:26.

sure it right this wrong. My heavens, the ways of this place is

:05:27.:05:31.

archaic. It is little wonder that people of Scotland see Westminster

:05:32.:05:35.

as a relevant. Although the Government and the minister have yet

:05:36.:05:41.

to debate, the pensions minister in the last government omitted recently

:05:42.:05:47.

the Government made a bad decision on state pension age rises. It is

:05:48.:05:53.

time, Madam Speaker, not just for Steve Webb for the Government to

:05:54.:05:58.

repent. When the minister responsible for powering the bill to

:05:59.:06:04.

parliament can see the air of his ways, surely the Treasury can see

:06:05.:06:07.

that it has to act in the best interests of the woman attacked.

:06:08.:06:12.

When I think of the intransigence of the Treasury is not taking

:06:13.:06:15.

responsibility to do the right thing, the am reminded of a line

:06:16.:06:20.

that could be used in the school report card, we thought George had

:06:21.:06:25.

reached rock bottom but he has kept eating. This is one hole the

:06:26.:06:32.

Government has to dig itself out of. MIDI Conservatives hope this issue

:06:33.:06:37.

under Waspi women will go away but that will not happen, we will keep

:06:38.:06:41.

fighting for them because it is the right thing to do. The Chancellor

:06:42.:06:49.

has refused to act, in his bunker. When you start to pay National

:06:50.:06:55.

Insurance you enter a contract with the state. The Government has an

:06:56.:07:01.

obligation to make that commitment. There has to be fairness and that is

:07:02.:07:05.

lacking in this case. In acting for this Government to put in mitigation

:07:06.:07:11.

to acknowledge the impact of the pension age increase is too steep.

:07:12.:07:19.

It is a pity in the week that the welcome in fiscal framework that

:07:20.:07:23.

would allow changes in the Scotland Bill, we are not seeing changes

:07:24.:07:27.

coming to Scotland, but if we had powers for pensions in Scotland, we

:07:28.:07:31.

would do the right then for our pensioners. Critique tell the House,

:07:32.:07:37.

is We're asking the government to make

:07:38.:07:52.

it clear what it will do and offer mitigation for pensioners this

:07:53.:07:57.

country. An example, a review of pension tax relief when you can find

:07:58.:08:03.

the money for ?176 billion of weapons of mass destruction. You can

:08:04.:08:08.

find the money to do the right thing for pensioners in this country. I'm

:08:09.:08:13.

extremely grateful to the honourable gentleman and recognise the passion

:08:14.:08:17.

he brings to this debate. But I'm very concerned that the Waspi

:08:18.:08:26.

campaigners will be misled in not being able to understand clearly

:08:27.:08:31.

what the SNP are going to commit to to bring forward the amelioration is

:08:32.:08:36.

so necessary. It's incumbent upon him, if he and his party want to be

:08:37.:08:40.

taken seriously, that he has a clear and costed proposal to bring to the

:08:41.:08:47.

house today. This is remarkable. The difference between our government in

:08:48.:08:50.

Scotland and the Tory government in Scotland, is that we have a ferment

:08:51.:08:54.

that is responsible and popular. There's a very easy answer to this.

:08:55.:09:01.

Give us our independence and we will do the right thing for our people.

:09:02.:09:06.

Undo the damage done by this Conservative government. Money is

:09:07.:09:17.

important but there is another issue here, and that's fairness. Maybe you

:09:18.:09:24.

don't know, but a third of the women between the age of 55 and 59, do not

:09:25.:09:29.

work. They don't work because they are in ill health, or they are

:09:30.:09:34.

disabled. The other half are carers looking after people. Point of

:09:35.:09:45.

order. Graham Evans. Will you remind the house of the rules of the house

:09:46.:09:49.

about making contributions that were not at the beginning of the debate.

:09:50.:09:54.

The honourable gentleman has been in and out of the chamber and was here

:09:55.:09:59.

at the beginning of the debate. Can I use this opportunity to calm

:10:00.:10:02.

things down a little bit so we can move on. We have a large number of

:10:03.:10:08.

members wanting to speak. If members want to make interventions, please

:10:09.:10:14.

keep them short, and I can remained members that they are talking

:10:15.:10:18.

through the chair. Not addressing honourable members. I agree with my

:10:19.:10:24.

honourable friend, who makes a good point, it's about unfairness, women

:10:25.:10:32.

who asked rigging, women in ill health, women who are struggling.

:10:33.:10:41.

Let me talk about the real case of women born in the early 1950s. It

:10:42.:10:47.

needs repetition, a woman born on the date of the 10th of February.

:10:48.:10:51.

Let's look at the different experiences through the years for

:10:52.:10:57.

the 1950s. Somebody born on February ten, 1950 would have retired age 60

:10:58.:11:02.

in 2010. A woman born a year later would have had to wait almost two

:11:03.:11:07.

years longer to have retired on the 6th of January 20 12. A woman born

:11:08.:11:13.

on the 10th of February 1952, would have reached state pension age on

:11:14.:11:20.

the 6th of January 20 14th aged 64 years, ten months. Such a woman has

:11:21.:11:26.

waited an additional two years over a woman born in 1950. If that wasn't

:11:27.:11:32.

bad enough, the increase for women born in 1953 and 54 gets even worse.

:11:33.:11:39.

Somebody born in 1953 would have retired in January this year aged

:11:40.:11:44.

nearly 63. A woman born in 1954 will not reach pensionable age until the

:11:45.:11:52.

6th of July 2019, when she will be 65 years, four months and 26 days. A

:11:53.:11:59.

woman born in 1954 is having to wait two and a half years longer for

:12:00.:12:03.

their pension than somebody born a year earlier. Just dwell on this.

:12:04.:12:10.

Would my honourable friend agree that in playing out to the public,

:12:11.:12:14.

many of the women in the Waspi campaign watching today, no doubt in

:12:15.:12:19.

disappointment, will be more disappointed to see that the Tory

:12:20.:12:24.

benches are populated almost exclusively by men, explaining why

:12:25.:12:27.

women in cannot access their pensions. They are watching these

:12:28.:12:36.

detached, remote, middle-aged men explain why they can't access their

:12:37.:12:43.

pensions. I thank my honourable friend for the point, but all of us,

:12:44.:12:48.

men and women, should reflect on the unfairness, because it's an issue we

:12:49.:12:51.

should see simply as wrong, whether male or female, we should deal with

:12:52.:12:55.

it. Let's dwell on this point, somebody born in 1953 has now

:12:56.:13:01.

retired. Somebody born in 1954 is having to wait until 2019. Where is

:13:02.:13:08.

the fairness in that? Let me ask members opposite, who will defend

:13:09.:13:13.

this? A minister, a backbencher, who will rise and defend what the

:13:14.:13:19.

government is doing? Do you seriously believe that my

:13:20.:13:22.

constituents in Blackpool North and Cleveleys, who want me to be here,

:13:23.:13:27.

think I should leave the chair because I'm a man and not

:13:28.:13:32.

participate in this debate? I'm sorry that's the approach the

:13:33.:13:36.

honourable gentleman has taken. I was looking for somebody to defend.

:13:37.:13:44.

You have failed. Everybody in this chamber has the right to defend the

:13:45.:13:47.

interests of their constituents. I want to make some progress. We have

:13:48.:13:52.

to see if the house divides on this issue. Perhaps Tory backbenchers

:13:53.:13:57.

will meekly trot through and again do nothing but support the

:13:58.:14:02.

government and do something which in our view is completely untenable.

:14:03.:14:07.

Now is your chance, will you defend this government? This is a debate

:14:08.:14:10.

and I will happily give way to somebody on the Tory side who will

:14:11.:14:16.

stand up for the Waspi campaign and the women in this country who are

:14:17.:14:21.

prepared to say... I just want to point out that we would like to

:14:22.:14:26.

speak when the open speeches are open. To defend what the government

:14:27.:14:32.

are doing is to defend the indefensible. It is wrong,

:14:33.:14:36.

mean-spirited. Don't just trip through the lobby without reflecting

:14:37.:14:40.

on women, in some cases women who are losing tens of thousands of

:14:41.:14:44.

pounds of entitlement. I have talked about women born up until 1954. A

:14:45.:14:50.

woman born in 1955 will not retire until the 10th of February 2021,

:14:51.:14:57.

aged 66. This can't be right and is far too steep and increase over two

:14:58.:15:01.

short a period. The government must put in place mitigation. I say to

:15:02.:15:06.

the government members, examine your consciences. You will have women

:15:07.:15:09.

coming to see you from the Waspi campaign. Order, the honourable

:15:10.:15:15.

gentleman is speaking through the chair, speaking to me, and I am not

:15:16.:15:19.

participating in this debate. Please address in the third person. I most

:15:20.:15:24.

sincerely apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker for my oversight and I will

:15:25.:15:30.

insure it will not happen again. Conservative members will have women

:15:31.:15:35.

from the Waspi campaign coming to their surgeries. Let's see what some

:15:36.:15:39.

women have said about their real wife experiences will stop what they

:15:40.:15:44.

will say to you. First, my husband and I got married in 1972 and he's

:15:45.:15:47.

12 years older than me. I think we plan to life in the right way. The

:15:48.:15:52.

pension law as put our plans out of the window. I have planned available

:15:53.:15:56.

options when my husband retires, and in 2011 Irish requested my state

:15:57.:16:07.

pension forecast. I thought the lump sum might allow me the option to

:16:08.:16:10.

work two days and still enjoy my family thanks to the changes I will

:16:11.:16:16.

no longer receive this. Also, I hadn't anticipated that at my age I

:16:17.:16:20.

might be a prime candidate for redundancy. Losing my job in 2014

:16:21.:16:25.

was a massive blow. The government might have changed the law, but it

:16:26.:16:30.

turns out many industries don't want women over 60. They are effectively

:16:31.:16:35.

retiring us and forcing us to use lifetime savings on baby living

:16:36.:16:39.

costs as nobody wants to hire us. There are so many points to dwell on

:16:40.:16:43.

here, but importantly, it's about the crushing of so many hopes and

:16:44.:16:48.

dreams. It's also the case that so many women have been forced to work

:16:49.:16:51.

beyond their expected retirement date and this brings its own

:16:52.:16:56.

challenges in terms of availability, suitability of employment, and many

:16:57.:16:59.

are sadly experiencing ill-health. What has been the response of the

:17:00.:17:04.

government? Other benefits are available? You have worked hard,

:17:05.:17:09.

paid your dues to society, met your side of the bargain by paying

:17:10.:17:13.

national insurance and expect to receive a pension, but this callous

:17:14.:17:17.

and heartless government rips up the contract and tells people to claim

:17:18.:17:22.

benefits. Is that the answer must means tested benefits will cost the

:17:23.:17:27.

Exchequer, and you are denied what is rightly yours. Welcome to George

:17:28.:17:32.

Osborne's Britain, callous, cold and undignified. Is this the crux of the

:17:33.:17:41.

issue, that here we have a clear breach of contract? If this was a

:17:42.:17:45.

private pension company that unilaterally changed the pension

:17:46.:17:49.

conditions of 2.6 million women in this country, this house quite

:17:50.:17:52.

rightly would be up in arms. They don't want the contract enforced,

:17:53.:17:57.

they want it mitigated fairly, and surely the government should listen

:17:58.:18:00.

to the 2.6 million women in this country and act now. My honourable

:18:01.:18:06.

friend makes a good point. We had a debate in this house about the FCA

:18:07.:18:10.

and consumer protection, and here are consumers being ripped off by

:18:11.:18:14.

their own government, their entitlement to a state pension. We

:18:15.:18:17.

should have Conservative members of Parliament up in arms over this,

:18:18.:18:20.

defending the rights of their constituents. One other example, my

:18:21.:18:27.

husband will be 78 by the time I retire. I had been looking forward

:18:28.:18:31.

to slowing down at 60 and putting family, husband and children at the

:18:32.:18:39.

centre of my life. In Cameron's speech on why families matter in

:18:40.:18:43.

2014, he stated he wanted to do everything possible to help support

:18:44.:18:46.

and strengthen family life in Britain. Having been available for

:18:47.:18:52.

my grandchildren, daughter and husband, we would not have to pay

:18:53.:18:59.

?1700 per month for the children going into nursery. The changes to

:19:00.:19:05.

the state pension have not supported or strengthened our family. The

:19:06.:19:09.

changes have left us in a state of disarray, all thanks to this

:19:10.:19:13.

Conservative government. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the reality.

:19:14.:19:21.

As I sum up... CHEERING I could quite happily go on if you

:19:22.:19:27.

want! What are Conservative MPs going to say to some women who are

:19:28.:19:31.

going to have to wait six years longer than anticipated for their

:19:32.:19:37.

pension? Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a breach of trust between the

:19:38.:19:39.

government and the women who have earned the right to their pension.

:19:40.:19:43.

We should return the advice from the report that shook measures should be

:19:44.:19:47.

brought in over a 15 year period to mitigate the impact of those

:19:48.:19:53.

measures. It can be argued that the start of the 15 year process should

:19:54.:19:57.

be the beginning of the changes in 2010. That would mean we are

:19:58.:20:02.

effectively at a retirement age of 63 for winning in April this year,

:20:03.:20:06.

and the government could look to smooth the increase of pensionable

:20:07.:20:12.

age for women until 2025. The government should do the right thing

:20:13.:20:15.

to introduce mitigation immediately. Now is the time to act, and if not

:20:16.:20:18.

we will come back to this place and fight for the women who deserve our

:20:19.:20:20.

protection. I rise to speak in this debate in

:20:21.:20:37.

huge disappointment. I imagine many of the Waspi women, it's not been a

:20:38.:20:41.

good debate so far, and I imagine many of the Waspi women watching

:20:42.:20:45.

might have switched off long ago. The party political point scoring on

:20:46.:20:50.

all sides and in all parties has been quite embarrassing. There are

:20:51.:20:53.

real women affected by this who have real issues. Yes, it is the fact

:20:54.:21:00.

that in 1995, following the first legislative change, that the party

:21:01.:21:04.

opposite did have 13 years in which it did not act. It did not inform

:21:05.:21:11.

women. It is also a fact that my own government has failed as well in

:21:12.:21:17.

communication. And the party opposite wasn't even here. That is

:21:18.:21:25.

the SNP. Yes, there have been failures on both sides of the house.

:21:26.:21:31.

I stand as a Waspi woman and I have received no communication

:21:32.:21:33.

whatsoever. It's not true to say that women have been informed. It is

:21:34.:21:38.

also not true to say that there has been a wide campaign of

:21:39.:21:46.

advertisements and information. That campaign of advertisements and

:21:47.:21:49.

information was about general pension changes, it did not

:21:50.:21:52.

specifically target this group of women who have been so badly

:21:53.:21:57.

affected. What I would like to spend a few minutes I have left after all

:21:58.:22:01.

the party political point scoring that has gone on, I would like to

:22:02.:22:04.

talk about the issues that are really affecting those women. It's a

:22:05.:22:10.

fact, and I will say some words in this house that will probably make

:22:11.:22:14.

the men cringe. A lot of people think I shouldn't talk about it in

:22:15.:22:18.

this house, but a lot of these women, women when they reach a

:22:19.:22:21.

certain age have health issues that men do not have to deal with, but

:22:22.:22:25.

none of that is taken into consideration. If I was here when

:22:26.:22:30.

the equalisation of pension age was about to come about, I would not

:22:31.:22:36.

support it, because women have to deal with issues later in life that

:22:37.:22:41.

men simply do not. Women are carers. Women in their 50s and 60s are more

:22:42.:22:47.

likely to be carers than women at any other age. It's a fact. 47.7 of

:22:48.:22:56.

breast cancer diagnoses is of women in their 50s and 60s. These are real

:22:57.:23:03.

issues that those women out there, affected by this legislation are

:23:04.:23:07.

facing. What do we say to a woman who has had breast cancer and ten

:23:08.:23:11.

courses of chemotherapy and radiotherapy, who is now being told

:23:12.:23:14.

that she can't retire when she thought she was going to, and has to

:23:15.:23:19.

go back to work, when she is half the weight she was at any other time

:23:20.:23:24.

in her life, and is sick and facing worst diagnoses in the future? What

:23:25.:23:28.

do we say to those women who have been affected and lost their

:23:29.:23:31.

injuries and have been blitzed with one issue after another because of

:23:32.:23:36.

their illness. I have those women in my constituency. A woman in my

:23:37.:23:39.

constituency was told she should have been sent a letter, and that

:23:40.:23:43.

she had been sent a letter and was telling lies, by the BW P. She lives

:23:44.:23:50.

now in the house she was born in. These women are facing dreadful

:23:51.:23:54.

problems. I was on the telephone to the DWP finding out how she would be

:23:55.:23:58.

affected. These are the complaints women have. It's not about who

:23:59.:24:01.

should have done what and when, it's not about which party to blame, it's

:24:02.:24:06.

not about who's at fault, it's about the problem these women are facing.

:24:07.:24:12.

It's about what they want and if the minister had the grace to listen to

:24:13.:24:18.

my speech, rather than talking like they did on the front bench, what I

:24:19.:24:22.

would like to do on behalf of those women is stand at the dispatch box

:24:23.:24:25.

today and make a commitment that at the very least... Order, we move

:24:26.:24:32.

onto the next speaker. Women who work for fair transitional pension

:24:33.:24:37.

arrangements have been accused by some of being in motion. There is

:24:38.:24:42.

one emotion that unites most of them, and that is anger. -- of being

:24:43.:24:48.

emotional. Banggaard the incompetence and stubbornness that

:24:49.:24:50.

has failed to address these issues over many years. -- anger at the

:24:51.:24:57.

incompetence. They faced either wrong information or no information

:24:58.:25:03.

at all from government and the arrangements have now been

:25:04.:25:07.

overturned. And who are the women most affected? Many of them are

:25:08.:25:11.

carers. One lady who wrote to me is caring for her mother, who is in her

:25:12.:25:16.

90s. Others are women who have had to retire early through ill health.

:25:17.:25:22.

Yet more women who have been made redundant in their late 50s and

:25:23.:25:27.

early 60s. There were a lot of those under the Coalition Government. All

:25:28.:25:31.

of them thought that they could just about manage until their state

:25:32.:25:37.

pension kicked in. Only to find that the goalposts had been moved by

:25:38.:25:40.

government and they were totally unaware of that fact. These are also

:25:41.:25:48.

women who had been disadvantaged throughout their working lives. They

:25:49.:25:53.

are women who started work, often before the equal pay act, certainly

:25:54.:25:57.

before the cases of equal pay for equal value. There were women who

:25:58.:26:02.

brought up children when there was little child care and often had to

:26:03.:26:06.

take low paid and part-time jobs to fit in with their children's school

:26:07.:26:11.

hours. If they are women who gave up work to look after their children,

:26:12.:26:15.

they were at that time given no pension credits for their caring

:26:16.:26:21.

responsibilities, and when they went back to work they found not enough

:26:22.:26:24.

time to build up a decent private pension. They are often women too,

:26:25.:26:31.

who have now found themselves redundant, but are kept in the

:26:32.:26:36.

workforce and being put through the work programme as if they were

:26:37.:26:39.

work-shy layabouts, when I have worked all their lives. Frankly,

:26:40.:26:44.

ministers ought to hang their heads in shame for the way they have

:26:45.:26:50.

treated these women. It is not enough, apparently, for this

:26:51.:26:54.

government to damage women's prospects in every budget they have

:26:55.:26:57.

introduced and make them they're the biggest burden of cuts, they also

:26:58.:27:02.

have to damage their retirement prospects as well. And yet this is a

:27:03.:27:06.

government that tells us it's on the side of strivers. Not if those

:27:07.:27:14.

strivers are women, it isn't. It has put many women, two and a half

:27:15.:27:19.

million in this country, in an impossible position. And so

:27:20.:27:23.

contemptuous of those women is it, that the Secretary of State doesn't

:27:24.:27:28.

even come here to answer debates. No doubt he's out fabricating some new

:27:29.:27:32.

fantasy about how our security is threatened by countries like Belgium

:27:33.:27:36.

and Luxembourg, those well-known bellicose nations. But the real

:27:37.:27:41.

culprit we have never seen at all, is the Chancellor. Whenever there is

:27:42.:27:49.

trouble, he's never here. He decided who women should bear an unfair

:27:50.:27:54.

burden of the cuts. He has made sure that they are paying the price for

:27:55.:28:00.

this government's policies. And in future, ministers should now listen,

:28:01.:28:04.

should come to the dispatch box with more than the platitudes we heard

:28:05.:28:08.

before from the minister. I haven't time to give way. And they should

:28:09.:28:14.

make sure they are bringing transitional arrangements for these

:28:15.:28:18.

women who have been the backbone of this country for many years. Many of

:28:19.:28:23.

whom are saving us millions by caring for others, and have been

:28:24.:28:27.

treated grossly unfairly and with contempt by this government. If we

:28:28.:28:34.

try not to intervene, because they want to speak, it will give us an

:28:35.:28:38.

impossible position. If people can shave a little bit off we will try

:28:39.:28:44.

to ensure everybody gets in. I'm embarrassed to be a member of this

:28:45.:28:48.

chamber today. This debate has shamed us all and I am deeply

:28:49.:28:52.

disappointed by what I have heard said today. I want to come here

:28:53.:28:57.

today to talk on behalf of the constituents I have met, who are

:28:58.:29:04.

affected by this issue, about their financial security, and why it

:29:05.:29:09.

matters to them. Why they want to be resilient and protected from

:29:10.:29:14.

unexpected shocks. All those I have met have been both reasonable, very

:29:15.:29:18.

frustrated, some have been intensely angry, and understandably so. I have

:29:19.:29:24.

no doubt that more could have been done by parties of all sides to

:29:25.:29:29.

improve communication. I'm sorry the lady is laughing at me, I wish she

:29:30.:29:33.

wouldn't because this is not a laughing matter. I'm desperate

:29:34.:29:36.

trying to explain here that I think more needs to be done on their

:29:37.:29:41.

behalf, the cars we can review what is being done in terms of

:29:42.:29:45.

communication, but that will not help these individuals. I want to

:29:46.:29:51.

look carefully at what Waspi are looking for because the strength of

:29:52.:29:55.

their campaign. Their petition is clear on what it calls for. I quote,

:29:56.:30:00.

to put all women in their 50s are affected by the changes of the state

:30:01.:30:05.

pension age at exactly the same financial position they would have

:30:06.:30:08.

been had they been born on or before the 5th of April 19 50. My

:30:09.:30:12.

understanding, and I want to be corrected if I am wrong, that would

:30:13.:30:18.

effectively mean restore the state pension age to 60 for that

:30:19.:30:21.

particular cohort of women. If that's the case, I think it's a

:30:22.:30:24.

perfectly valid argument to make, but one I can't agree with. I think

:30:25.:30:29.

the cost of doing so would be too great for the Exchequer to bear.

:30:30.:30:34.

That doesn't mean that the answer is we do nothing. I think there are

:30:35.:30:39.

many ways we can try to look at what these transitional arrangements

:30:40.:30:45.

could be. I listened carefully to the SNP 's speech. I wasn't clear

:30:46.:30:52.

what those plans amounted to. From the shadow secretary of state, I

:30:53.:30:55.

found him to be a reasonable man when I have debated with him in the

:30:56.:31:00.

chamber, from the first time we met to discuss epilepsy, I've had a high

:31:01.:31:04.

regard for him. He came up with six options. Some are mutually

:31:05.:31:10.

exclusive. None of which had a price tag attacked, nor did he select a

:31:11.:31:14.

particular preference. But I thought it was a useful starting point. What

:31:15.:31:19.

I would urge everybody on all sides is, the more information we have,

:31:20.:31:23.

the more we can start to select which are the most appropriate

:31:24.:31:26.

methods going forward. What problem are we trying to solve here? Which

:31:27.:31:31.

is the most proportionate means to solve those problems. Which one of

:31:32.:31:37.

those six could address the concerns? Some will be too costly,

:31:38.:31:41.

some might not be, but we must be open to the information. The more

:31:42.:31:46.

they can be costed, the better. The other point I make to Waspi, in

:31:47.:31:50.

their evidence to the work and pensions select committee, I think

:31:51.:31:53.

they made an error of judgment perhaps, in that they appeared to

:31:54.:31:57.

rely on the prospect of any use of either means tested benefits, or

:31:58.:32:01.

other pensionable benefits, to adjust some of the problem is that

:32:02.:32:05.

these people might be facing. I think that was also a mistake to

:32:06.:32:10.

make, because there is the potential to discuss, how once people are into

:32:11.:32:15.

their pension, they could find somewhere to either mitigate the

:32:16.:32:18.

impact or adjust the impact. Might bring forward the age at which they

:32:19.:32:24.

can claim, but reduce the amount that they do claim, for example. I

:32:25.:32:29.

would hope we can look also at whether changes need to be

:32:30.:32:31.

universal, or specifically means tested. Many of my most vulnerable

:32:32.:32:39.

pensioners, as the honourable member from Bedfordshire make clear, are

:32:40.:32:42.

the least well off, so I hope you can at least have a wider debate.

:32:43.:32:49.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, and I start by offering you and the house

:32:50.:32:53.

my apologies. Unfortunately I will not be able to be in the wind ups

:32:54.:33:01.

because I'm in front bench duty at Westminster Hall from 4pm, and no

:33:02.:33:05.

discourtesy is intended to the shadow minister or minister closing.

:33:06.:33:10.

It's a pleasure, as always, to take part in these debates. But I am a

:33:11.:33:14.

little saddened by the Minister's response to what I think is a fairly

:33:15.:33:22.

clear motion that has been put out by the Labour front bench. Because

:33:23.:33:27.

what we are asking for, we are calling on the government to set out

:33:28.:33:33.

a process of transitional arrangements to be put in place for

:33:34.:33:37.

this group of women who have been served a very real injustice. I'm

:33:38.:33:44.

not concerned about the who, where, how, what, when my kids are

:33:45.:33:52.

squabbling, they get put on the naughty step. I'm not bothered about

:33:53.:33:56.

the questions, we are where we are. The Waspi women appreciate that we

:33:57.:34:03.

are where we are. The real injustice is that they have been denied fair

:34:04.:34:09.

transitional arrangements. When we were discussing changes to members

:34:10.:34:15.

of Parliament is pension schemes, we put in place, through an independent

:34:16.:34:24.

system that I accept, a 10-year transitional arrangement so that

:34:25.:34:27.

those honourable and Right Honourable members who are within

:34:28.:34:31.

ten years from their normal retirement age were able to remain

:34:32.:34:34.

on the old House of Commons system, and the rest of us were moved to the

:34:35.:34:39.

new system. I say this to the Minister, if it's good enough for

:34:40.:34:46.

us, it's good enough for them. And they deserve that freedom to be able

:34:47.:34:54.

to have enough time to make alternative arrangements, because

:34:55.:34:56.

those were the arguments that were put when our pension changes came.

:34:57.:35:03.

It's not one rule for us and one rule for the people outside of this

:35:04.:35:09.

chamber. I argue, quite reasonably, that they should expect the same

:35:10.:35:15.

treatment that we expect when we had changes to our pension systems. I

:35:16.:35:21.

realise the Minister is not the pensions minister. The pensions

:35:22.:35:25.

minister resides in the other place, and I have to say that being kind to

:35:26.:35:29.

the Minister, who seemed very tetchy in his response, it probably showed

:35:30.:35:33.

that he wasn't the pensions minister. I just want to say this to

:35:34.:35:38.

him, this is what the Waspi women are calling for. This is their

:35:39.:35:44.

petition. It is that the government must make a fair transitional

:35:45.:35:47.

arrangements for all women born on or after the 6th of April 1951, who

:35:48.:35:53.

have unfairly born the burden of increases in the state pension age.

:35:54.:35:59.

They are not asking for changes in legislation. They are asking for

:36:00.:36:05.

fairness. That brings me back to the Labour motion today, which will be

:36:06.:36:10.

voted on. And we all have the chance, to not just give platitudes

:36:11.:36:14.

to those women, but to actually show that we mean it in the division

:36:15.:36:20.

lobbies later today. And that is that we call on the government to

:36:21.:36:25.

bring forward proposals for transitional arrangements for these

:36:26.:36:29.

same women. Because they deserve fairness. And that is what this

:36:30.:36:35.

debate has called for, and I commend my honourable friend, the shadow

:36:36.:36:39.

secretary of state, for calling it. Because it does allow us to have a

:36:40.:36:44.

vote and to show these women we mean what we say.

:36:45.:36:50.

I rise to speak to represent the views of Linda Anderson and others

:36:51.:36:58.

who came to see me from the Waspi campaign group in Salisbury last

:36:59.:37:04.

week. What was clear from their representations is that they had a

:37:05.:37:09.

real and brave sense of injustice. There was clearly a different set of

:37:10.:37:16.

experiences in terms of what they received over the years and their

:37:17.:37:20.

understanding of the different entitlements they should have had.

:37:21.:37:26.

But in this debate today, I have been disappointed either lack of

:37:27.:37:31.

clarity of the alternatives that have been presented. We had a

:37:32.:37:36.

powerful speech from the front bench spokesman for the SNP but did not

:37:37.:37:44.

have clarity or costings on what amelioration his party proposes.

:37:45.:37:50.

From the opposition front bench, as my honourable friend said, we had a

:37:51.:37:58.

menu of options but no price tags and no choices. What I wanted to any

:37:59.:38:05.

few moments is set out what I would do and say how much it would cost

:38:06.:38:09.

because I think it is important we have some integrity in terms of

:38:10.:38:15.

addressing the campaigners who have come to see us because there has

:38:16.:38:19.

been far too much and motive trying to get alongside the Waspi

:38:20.:38:24.

campaigners and say it is my party who will do something about this and

:38:25.:38:30.

make accusations about a government that has put in significant changes

:38:31.:38:34.

to raise the standard of living of pensioners and setting in place

:38:35.:38:39.

mechanisms to ensure that changes in life expectancy reflected in the

:38:40.:38:44.

provision this Government makes for senior citizens. It is clear the

:38:45.:38:51.

pathway to equalisation was set a long time ago and it is clear that

:38:52.:38:56.

there was some communication after the legislation was passed in 1995

:38:57.:39:01.

but I want to go back to this report of the select committee in 2004.

:39:02.:39:08.

There is no ambiguity over what that report referred to in terms of the

:39:09.:39:13.

on the bus surveyed which referred to woman in 2004, aged 45 to 54,

:39:14.:39:20.

nearly three quarters were aware of the changes and that was 12 years

:39:21.:39:27.

ago. I say this not to deflect from the sense of injustice of the iMac

:39:28.:39:32.

campaign but to suggest that there have been a range of experiences and

:39:33.:39:39.

awareness of these changes, so it is difficult to come down with clarity

:39:40.:39:46.

on who knew what, when. But there does seem to be a real injustice for

:39:47.:39:49.

this group of people who are now very near their pensionable age for

:39:50.:39:56.

what they thought was their pensionable age and have now had

:39:57.:40:01.

extended. Their lifestyle will give compromised, often there partners

:40:02.:40:08.

are already retired and it has grave implications for quality of life, so

:40:09.:40:13.

I propose that this group of pensioners in that cohort in the

:40:14.:40:18.

early 50s are given the option to take their pension earlier. They are

:40:19.:40:23.

given that option and their pension will be reduced by a relatively

:40:24.:40:28.

small amount for two or three years and it should be cost neutral to the

:40:29.:40:35.

Government and you can even take in effect the cost of the

:40:36.:40:37.

administrative changes that would mean. That seems to me a reasonable

:40:38.:40:43.

approach because it says there is a good chance that three quarters of

:40:44.:40:48.

you would have heard about it but if you didn't, this option exists, and

:40:49.:40:53.

I urge the front bench to consider that and come back with their

:40:54.:40:58.

response. I I am pleased to speak in this debate because so many cases

:40:59.:41:03.

have shown how the changes wrought by the 2011 Pensions Act affect the

:41:04.:41:08.

lives of millions of women who work unfairly bury the personal cost of

:41:09.:41:14.

increases to the state pension age because many find themselves without

:41:15.:41:19.

a job or benefits to live on and that has to focus our minds, and

:41:20.:41:26.

many women born in the 1950s are living in financial hardship. In our

:41:27.:41:30.

last debate I asked the minister where was the support for Minister

:41:31.:41:35.

affected either state pension age increases that his government

:41:36.:41:38.

brought in. There were 2.6 million women born in the 1950s affected by

:41:39.:41:45.

this but finding suitable employment went in your 60s is not the same as

:41:46.:41:51.

in your teens and 20s, and experience with Mike on the Jones

:41:52.:41:54.

suggests that suitable programmes do not exist. These facts were known in

:41:55.:42:01.

2011. The minister was pilloried, even by his own party, when he read

:42:02.:42:07.

out a list of benefits available to women affected by these changes. I

:42:08.:42:12.

want to say to him he does not realise what it means to go to a job

:42:13.:42:17.

centre or be pushed onto a work programme, woman in my constituency

:42:18.:42:22.

told me how they felt going to job centres, they felt there was no pity

:42:23.:42:28.

doing that as a woman in your 60s, after a lifetime of working and

:42:29.:42:33.

paying National Insurance. One constituent said she was pleased

:42:34.:42:40.

this was being taken off because it was making her ill having to deal

:42:41.:42:46.

with them. One woman is on a work programme that fails to take into

:42:47.:42:52.

account her previous experience and she is worried about being part of a

:42:53.:42:55.

programme where she has to work for free. Others talk about her

:42:56.:43:03.

experience with programme providers. 160 rolled woman with a full work

:43:04.:43:10.

history was reporting being escorted by staff around a shopping centre

:43:11.:43:15.

with the CV to make speculative applications to managers in shops

:43:16.:43:20.

but her CV had been changed by the programme provider to disguise her

:43:21.:43:26.

age, and there are legal issues but adding those aside because

:43:27.:43:31.

misrepresentation of that sort can make void a contract, putting that

:43:32.:43:37.

aside, we can see the acceleration of state pension ages is pushing

:43:38.:43:44.

some women into that situation. Women have described the process as

:43:45.:43:48.

degrading, being frogmarched with a falsified CV around eight shopping

:43:49.:43:52.

centre is humiliating because the same provider offered inappropriate

:43:53.:44:00.

sentiments like sweets or chocolates to encourage them to apply for jobs.

:44:01.:44:05.

Women fear sanctions if they refused to participate. We should be ashamed

:44:06.:44:10.

of a system that treats women that way when they have worked all their

:44:11.:44:15.

lives. Why does the Government not considered different schemes? Why

:44:16.:44:20.

had they not looked at a bridge pension scheme, offering

:44:21.:44:25.

concessionary travel, offering winter fuel payments? Through their

:44:26.:44:30.

lives these women have been disadvantaged in terms of pay and

:44:31.:44:35.

pensions. They deserve better after a lifetime of work them being

:44:36.:44:40.

frogmarched around shopping centres offered sweets to fill in job

:44:41.:44:45.

applications. They deserve consideration of a lifetime of work

:44:46.:44:48.

and contribution and fairer conditional arrangements. --

:44:49.:44:58.

transitional. I support this motion, opportunistic though it is, I will

:44:59.:45:03.

have to vote against the Government which I do not make a habit of Butt

:45:04.:45:09.

out of loyalty to Waspi and support of arrangement they agree with, and

:45:10.:45:13.

because legislation is to be fair and proportionate and this is on for

:45:14.:45:20.

and has fallen disproportionately on a small number of women. It has been

:45:21.:45:28.

unprecedented, I have never known a debate on the same subject five

:45:29.:45:31.

times in two months, Westminster Hall with standing room only in the

:45:32.:45:35.

last debate. I welcome the options put forward by the shadow front

:45:36.:45:41.

bench, they have problems but they are a starting point and the

:45:42.:45:45.

Government has not come up with options and offered to help to model

:45:46.:45:50.

them and I would ask me can have dialogue and detail and definition.

:45:51.:45:55.

There is cross-party support on getting this problem sorted, it will

:45:56.:46:02.

not go away and I would ask the minister if you will agree for the

:46:03.:46:05.

Secretary of State to beat a cross-party delegation of honourable

:46:06.:46:11.

members with key members of the Waspi campaign with the help of

:46:12.:46:16.

civil servants to look at models, to cost those and give the implications

:46:17.:46:20.

so we can have faxed to see how practical or temperature call some

:46:21.:46:25.

things might be. Given the time, I want to read from two letters from

:46:26.:46:29.

constituents who speak more eloquently than I could. One lady

:46:30.:46:34.

said two years before she was due to retire she had to wait until she was

:46:35.:46:41.

66, when she began work at 15 she was always going to work until she

:46:42.:46:45.

was 60 so everything was planned for that time. My family to leave in

:46:46.:46:51.

working to save for the future. Despite being widowed at 202I never

:46:52.:46:56.

accepted hand-outs. As a single mother I supported my son for six

:46:57.:47:02.

years, I was lucky enough to remarry but still continued to work. After

:47:03.:47:08.

two bouts of cancer I finally had to stop working in my mid-50s and had

:47:09.:47:14.

to claim incapacity enough at but was reassured that after five years

:47:15.:47:19.

I would receive my pension, so it was a complete shock that two years

:47:20.:47:23.

because before I was due to receive it, I find I will not get it until I

:47:24.:47:29.

I am 66. Another says she has worked as a nurse for 40 years, she

:47:30.:47:33.

believed the Government would look after her and that he had a contract

:47:34.:47:38.

which they have now broken as she will be 66 when she receives her

:47:39.:47:42.

pension. This will cause hardship when I grow older and I feel let

:47:43.:47:48.

down, my pension age has been changed twice and I cannot believe a

:47:49.:47:52.

woman born two years before me already receives her pension.

:47:53.:47:58.

Another lady says, it seems we older women are considered an important

:47:59.:48:03.

and not worth the financial support we have earned. I agree, and we need

:48:04.:48:09.

to send out a strong message that we do care about those women, there has

:48:10.:48:15.

been a disproportionate affect from well-intentioned changes to the

:48:16.:48:19.

pension age, and nobody is saying we need to go back to a pre-1995 level

:48:20.:48:25.

but there is a compromise to be reached, common-sense that needs to

:48:26.:48:29.

break out and the Government needs to listen to all sides of this House

:48:30.:48:34.

and listen to woman who we value who have been affected

:48:35.:48:37.

disproportionately by these changes and I hope the minister but take

:48:38.:48:43.

away that message and that we can open a dialogue because we are

:48:44.:48:47.

talking about real woman facing real hardship after hard working lives,

:48:48.:48:51.

giving the sort of thing we encourage people to do everyday.

:48:52.:48:58.

Today we find ourselves debating the transitional arrangements and the

:48:59.:49:01.

need for them following equalisation of the state pension age. Contrary

:49:02.:49:08.

to what was said earlier, everyone, including the woman affected, accept

:49:09.:49:12.

the equalisation of the state pension age but in practice these

:49:13.:49:17.

changes have had such a detrimental affect to the lives of a group of

:49:18.:49:24.

women board in the 1950s and many thousands in the country, so we

:49:25.:49:30.

can't ignore this no longer. Like many of us here, I have had many

:49:31.:49:36.

women from Waspi contact me in my surgeries or via e-mail to raise

:49:37.:49:43.

concerns about the impact the lack of transitional arrangements will

:49:44.:49:45.

have on their lives. We have had many debates yet time and again the

:49:46.:49:50.

Government have healed to move one inch from their position and

:49:51.:49:56.

continue to ignore these concerns. From the many letters I have

:49:57.:50:00.

received, the common theme was that the escalation in equalisation of

:50:01.:50:07.

the state pension age has ruined these women's plans, savings and in

:50:08.:50:11.

some cases lives. One case stands out in particular, a woman born in

:50:12.:50:19.

1957 who explained that she saw these changes mentioned a queue

:50:20.:50:22.

times on the news but as she never received a letter she assumed it

:50:23.:50:27.

would not affect her or she would have been told. She eventually

:50:28.:50:33.

received a letter in 2014, a routine pension calculation she thought

:50:34.:50:37.

which showed her state pension age is 2023. She thought it was a

:50:38.:50:42.

mistake and was horrified to discover later that it was not a

:50:43.:50:48.

that instead of a pension next year she has to work a further six years.

:50:49.:50:55.

She is in bad health and couldn't visit coping, but upon realisation

:50:56.:51:05.

of the enormity of what this meant to her and her life, health

:51:06.:51:10.

deteriorated, she became depressed and required meditation --

:51:11.:51:12.

medication, and I would hazard will never be the same again. None of us

:51:13.:51:21.

can turn back time but just for a second, can the Minister put

:51:22.:51:24.

yourself in that position, imagine you are that lady finding out that

:51:25.:51:28.

new Zimbabwe and how that would feel. Imagine the shock. We did

:51:29.:51:34.

that, we, this institution, this Parliament. Many of us were not MPs

:51:35.:51:40.

in 1995, but some of us were in 2011, and the laws of this land we

:51:41.:51:45.

make here affect people out there. Was it not our duty to insure these

:51:46.:51:51.

women who were about to be delivered of this great life altering shock at

:51:52.:51:54.

least knew about it, that they knew when they heard on the news that it

:51:55.:51:58.

did affect them, not because they researched the small print

:51:59.:52:03.

themselves, but because the Department for Work and Pensions

:52:04.:52:06.

wrote to them personally and told them in good time, not as

:52:07.:52:21.

late as 2014. Surely that was the least the department could have

:52:22.:52:24.

done, and we, Parliament, should have insisted upon it. We cannot

:52:25.:52:27.

turn back time and wave that magic wand that a lot of people think we

:52:28.:52:30.

have because we don't have one. But we can insist that the Government

:52:31.:52:32.

does, and what this minister must drop with haste, are transitional

:52:33.:52:35.

arrangements for this group of women who have been failed by the system,

:52:36.:52:40.

failed by these changes. We cannot fail than today. Parliament is at

:52:41.:52:44.

its best when using its power for the good of its people. Parliament

:52:45.:52:49.

is speaking clearly today to the Government. Go away, sort this out

:52:50.:52:54.

and bring forward transitional arrangements so these women are not

:52:55.:52:57.

left destitute in what should have been there well earned retirement.

:52:58.:53:05.

No one in this House can doubt the sincerity of the campaign or the

:53:06.:53:09.

numbers of women who have signed the petition, but as this is the fifth

:53:10.:53:13.

debate we should start with what has changed since the last one. Today's

:53:14.:53:18.

motion is about bringing forward transitional arrangements, and that

:53:19.:53:22.

is the wording on the petition of the campaign, and that sounds

:53:23.:53:26.

harmless, but what are these transitional arrangements? The

:53:27.:53:32.

Shadow pensions Minister in the last debate included a specific proposal,

:53:33.:53:39.

a perfectly reasonable one, about extending pension credit. But that

:53:40.:53:44.

had been specifically ruled out by the spokeswoman of the campaign in

:53:45.:53:48.

evidence to the select committee. The Shadow Work and Pensions

:53:49.:53:53.

Secretary today, like the SNP spokesman, but talked passionately

:53:54.:53:55.

about doing the right thing, but they didn't say what that was or

:53:56.:53:59.

what their commitment is, or what their parties would do in the

:54:00.:54:04.

position, in some cases unlikely, of being responsible for the finances

:54:05.:54:07.

and pension arrangements for the United Kingdom. I believe, Mr Deputy

:54:08.:54:14.

Speaker, that there is a serious danger of opposition members here,

:54:15.:54:17.

in their sympathy for the cause of the campaign, of leading these women

:54:18.:54:25.

up the garden path, encouraging them with sympathy but giving no

:54:26.:54:31.

commitment whatsoever. And it is important that the House understands

:54:32.:54:37.

that their main ask is exactly as I spelt out, from their Facebook page,

:54:38.:54:43.

in the last debate, which is to ask for everybody born, all women born

:54:44.:54:47.

in the 1950s to be in the same financial position as those born

:54:48.:54:54.

before April 19 50. That is their "Main ask". It reverses the 1995 Act

:54:55.:55:00.

in important ways. What would the cost be? Since the last debate we

:55:01.:55:04.

have the data from the DWP to the select committee, and it is much

:55:05.:55:09.

greater than any of us imagined. There would be an immediate cost of

:55:10.:55:15.

?29 million in 2016-17, bigger than the entire budget for Scotland. The

:55:16.:55:21.

total cost up to 2020 alone would be ?77 million. Mr Deputy Speaker, when

:55:22.:55:29.

I discuss this issue with my wife and my sisters and others born in

:55:30.:55:33.

the 1950s, and I explain to them that pensions are paid every year

:55:34.:55:38.

not out of some magic protected pot called national insurance, but out

:55:39.:55:44.

of general taxpayers revenue paid by the Next Generation, our children

:55:45.:55:48.

and grandchildren, none of them, none of the women I have spoken to,

:55:49.:55:54.

believe that cost of ?77 billion is remotely practical. So there is...

:55:55.:56:02.

That is why the opposition will never propose that or agree to it

:56:03.:56:05.

under any circumstances. So the question is, are there other

:56:06.:56:11.

arrangements, and the other potential arrangements are being

:56:12.:56:14.

considered by the select committee in a report on the new state pension

:56:15.:56:20.

Act, which will include a section specifically on this campaign. I

:56:21.:56:23.

believe that members should wait until that report has come out and

:56:24.:56:28.

the conclusions of the select committee are there to be seen by

:56:29.:56:32.

everyone, and it will only be about three weeks from now, and then they

:56:33.:56:37.

will be able to see the real impact and the real cost of some of the

:56:38.:56:41.

suggestions that have been put forward today. But Mr Deputy

:56:42.:56:46.

Speaker, we should be clear, the campaign is a genuine one, it is a

:56:47.:56:50.

principled one, they cared passionately and feel they have been

:56:51.:56:55.

badly treated, but this House has an obligation not to mislead them and

:56:56.:56:58.

pretend things will be done which will never be done. That is why the

:56:59.:57:07.

main ask is not possible. Sometimes, a campaign captures the mood of this

:57:08.:57:12.

nation. This campaign has done just that. Like so much of this

:57:13.:57:16.

Government's agenda the speed of the transition arrangements for women's

:57:17.:57:21.

state pensions betrays a rush to pinch pennies at too great a human

:57:22.:57:26.

expense. Even more so than other groups hit by austerity, these women

:57:27.:57:29.

have stung back and the wave of public support for their cause I

:57:30.:57:34.

believe speaks volumes. We have a strong tradition of equality

:57:35.:57:38.

campaigning in this country. I think of the suffragettes and their

:57:39.:57:43.

determination to give women a voice whatever the cost, their chartists

:57:44.:57:46.

and their drive for universal suffrage, the Ford Dagenham workers

:57:47.:57:51.

and the demand for equal pay, Stonewall and their tireless

:57:52.:57:53.

challenging homophobia in law, and the force forces society -- Fawcett

:57:54.:58:01.

Society in their provocative challenge of this is what a feminist

:58:02.:58:06.

looks like. Firstly I would say, this is what a feminist looks like.

:58:07.:58:12.

Secondly each of these campaigns was driven by anger at injustice,

:58:13.:58:15.

unfairness and the unreasonableness of those in power to listen to a

:58:16.:58:21.

reasonable case. As we have heard, moving the goalposts on state

:58:22.:58:28.

pension age equalisation so quickly is betraying the lives of women

:58:29.:58:32.

whose lives have been already too challenging. They have already had

:58:33.:58:37.

access to paternalistic -- maternity leave, fair pay and shared parental

:58:38.:58:42.

leave and suffered bullying in the workplace and regularly settled for

:58:43.:58:45.

low paid, low skilled jobs below their potential because flexible

:58:46.:58:49.

working was not an option for them. They are a generation of women who

:58:50.:58:54.

can put you -- too few seats in the boardroom. Women who finished their

:58:55.:58:58.

working lives earning significantly less than their male counterparts.

:58:59.:59:02.

These women have paid their dues and they deserve a decent retirement.

:59:03.:59:06.

They deserve at a minimum to be able to plan their retirement with the

:59:07.:59:09.

certainty and expectation others have. It is right

:59:10.:59:27.

that the qualification retirement age for the state pension should be

:59:28.:59:31.

the same for men and women. The campaign does not dispute this. But

:59:32.:59:33.

the pace of this change has robbed people of time to repair and make

:59:34.:59:36.

informed decisions, to honour other commitments about putting oneself in

:59:37.:59:38.

financial jeopardy. These have been robbed from the campaigners.

:59:39.:59:39.

Reasonable decisions about their family futures have been lost to a

:59:40.:59:42.

forced hand. 3800 of my constituents are believed to be affected. That is

:59:43.:59:45.

over 5% of my electorate. Of these 2000 will experience a year

:59:46.:59:48.

increased to state pension age and 450 will experience the full 18

:59:49.:59:53.

month delay. Several have contacted me to express concerns, including

:59:54.:59:59.

Gail Jones and Barbara Evans, women who have contributed to the

:00:00.:00:03.

extractor and their communities throughout their lives, women now

:00:04.:00:05.

being short-changed -- to the exchequer. This Government has at

:00:06.:00:10.

times proven they can acknowledge it has misjudged a policy by retreating

:00:11.:00:15.

on its attempts to cut tax credits and police numbers. Cynics among us

:00:16.:00:19.

will say yes -- that this happens when the Chancellor feels it will

:00:20.:00:23.

affect his career but it is the case they have occasionally done the

:00:24.:00:27.

U-turn. I trust on this occasion the Minister will finally listen to the

:00:28.:00:29.

strength of feeling from these benches and both sides of the House,

:00:30.:00:34.

but especially to the passionate appeals by the campaigners, and

:00:35.:00:40.

agree to revisit these arrangements. Let the Minister respect these women

:00:41.:00:43.

who have contributed so much to the National purse and the national

:00:44.:00:46.

fabric, and I hope when the Minister thumbs up, he will show from the

:00:47.:00:51.

dispatch box today that he is what a feminist looks like and pledged to

:00:52.:00:58.

think again. I have to say this has been a quite interesting debate,

:00:59.:01:03.

sometimes quite poor, but clearly of great interest to many of our

:01:04.:01:08.

constituents. Many of us came into politics to do the right thing, to

:01:09.:01:13.

look after the right sorts of people, and clearly I joined the

:01:14.:01:16.

Conservative Party because I wanted to make sure those who did the right

:01:17.:01:21.

thing, who go out to work and save for their future are protected in

:01:22.:01:27.

their old age. I think that runs very deep through the Conservative

:01:28.:01:30.

Party and we should make sure we look after those who have been out

:01:31.:01:34.

there, worked hard, or those that stayed at home and looked after

:01:35.:01:38.

their children and made sure their children set off on the right path.

:01:39.:01:44.

And I think today's debate, really, has been a sad reflection on those

:01:45.:01:49.

women who find themselves in this very difficult circumstance. We had

:01:50.:01:53.

to listen to 30 minutes from the Labour front bench of blatant party

:01:54.:01:58.

politicking around the issues and challenges we face without a single

:01:59.:02:03.

commitment to what they would do if they were left in this position. I

:02:04.:02:09.

think that is really sad, that they talked about six particular options

:02:10.:02:12.

available, they committed to none of them. They didn't say whether to do

:02:13.:02:17.

one of them, two of them or six of them. And I think that was a real

:02:18.:02:22.

shame that they didn't nail their flag to the poll and say, if we were

:02:23.:02:26.

in the hot seat, and they left us in the hot seat, what they would do. To

:02:27.:02:34.

be fair to the Blair Government, in 95, with the pensions Act, they did

:02:35.:02:40.

try to engage with those people who found themselves in that difficult

:02:41.:02:44.

position as we move through the Labour Government, but they didn't

:02:45.:02:48.

go far enough, they didn't recognise the enormous time bomb coming in

:02:49.:02:52.

terms of demographic change. And they left us in 2010 with this

:02:53.:02:58.

enormous mountain to climb, to be able to solve the challenges for

:02:59.:03:03.

these people, as we all live longer and healthier lives. In 2011, the

:03:04.:03:09.

Conservative Coalition Government tried to solve this challenge by

:03:10.:03:14.

bringing forward the 2011 Pensions Act to meet that gap. Now, it is

:03:15.:03:19.

very challenging when you find yourself at the wrong side of that

:03:20.:03:24.

line, and clearly a line had to be drawn somewhere so we could move the

:03:25.:03:29.

pension age up over a period of time. And I do recognise that some

:03:30.:03:35.

people now find themselves in really difficult circumstances, and I will

:03:36.:03:39.

be listening to the Minister to identify if there are any ways we

:03:40.:03:42.

can mitigate some of the challenge they face, but at the same time, I

:03:43.:03:46.

think we have to recognise already some of the changes that have taken

:03:47.:03:52.

place, over ?1 billion of mitigation which has gone in since our time in

:03:53.:03:57.

office to try to smooth the way these people. I am enormously

:03:58.:04:00.

sympathetic to the challenge I face and I will meet some soon in my

:04:01.:04:04.

constituency. I think this debate will continue for a long time. I

:04:05.:04:11.

have to be honest, when I heard we were debating this issue again I

:04:12.:04:15.

thought, what am I going to talk about? Everything is already on the

:04:16.:04:19.

record, we have already discussed how the new single tier state

:04:20.:04:23.

pension is irrelevant of these women and will not solve the problem, we

:04:24.:04:28.

also went to great lengths to explain how nobody is disagreeing

:04:29.:04:31.

with equalisation, nobody is calling acts to be repealed, then I came

:04:32.:04:37.

across this document sent by a Conservative MP to a woman affected.

:04:38.:04:41.

On the front page it says the Government cannot do anything

:04:42.:04:45.

because they are campaigning for all women born after April 1951 to be

:04:46.:04:50.

given their state pension from age 60. No, they are not, that is not

:04:51.:04:55.

what they are asking. The Member for Gloucester earlier was talking about

:04:56.:05:00.

misleading. That is misleading, nobody is against equalisation. On

:05:01.:05:05.

Monday I attended a media training course, teaching you how to look at

:05:06.:05:06.

the camera, where to put your hands. One of the guys

:05:07.:05:24.

taking it said to me that as a politician, if you find yourself in

:05:25.:05:26.

a difficult situation where you think you are in the wrong and you

:05:27.:05:29.

need to get through the interview, do not address the issue, start

:05:30.:05:32.

talking about what you want to talk about. It hit me, that is what this

:05:33.:05:35.

statement is doing. Every time we talk about this you talk about

:05:36.:05:37.

irrelevant things. The campaign states that national insurance

:05:38.:05:41.

credits are available... National insurance payments also affect

:05:42.:05:43.

entitlement to other benefits. One of my achievements described

:05:44.:05:56.

pensions as a contract, so let's make this simple, everyone in here

:05:57.:06:04.

has a phone, we have a contract. If O2 or virgin or anyone else were to

:06:05.:06:09.

change the terms or conditions, we would have something to say and if

:06:10.:06:14.

they waited 14 years to tell us that terms have changed a sure everybody

:06:15.:06:18.

would have something to say about it. If they also said we would be

:06:19.:06:24.

forced to live off savings because of the changes, we would be up in

:06:25.:06:29.

arms, so why are pensions any different? We hear about where this

:06:30.:06:35.

money will come from but this comes back to austerity. This is austerity

:06:36.:06:42.

of choice and the front bench can't say all they like, I have yet to

:06:43.:06:47.

hear of a general or Defence Minister to save we cannot bomb that

:06:48.:06:51.

country because we have exceeded our budget, when we want to bomb Syria,

:06:52.:06:57.

or refurbish Westminster, we can find it but we cannot give

:06:58.:07:01.

pensioners their pension. I cannot accept that. This debate reminds me

:07:02.:07:09.

of that tax credit debate, we were given arguments as to how it was

:07:10.:07:13.

unfair and the Government responded that they do not have the money and

:07:14.:07:18.

then went political pressure was put on them, one hand down the back of

:07:19.:07:24.

the coach and taken up audit and do a U-turn, which brings me to my last

:07:25.:07:30.

point. How can we ignore the will of this House. We have voted 158-0, how

:07:31.:07:41.

can we ignore that. We debated in a packed Westminster Hall with almost

:07:42.:07:45.

everybody speaking against the Government, the Government cannot

:07:46.:07:52.

continue to ignore this House. I am no fan of Westminster, I think it is

:07:53.:07:57.

more about ego than issue that even the most savvy minds must see this

:07:58.:08:02.

is not party political. We have a chance to come together and do

:08:03.:08:07.

something that will earn respect, so the Government should take this type

:08:08.:08:14.

of like this chance and act. In the last few months I have met a number

:08:15.:08:18.

of constituents who have been impacted IDs changes. The detail how

:08:19.:08:25.

the changes had an impact on them and I have every sympathy with them

:08:26.:08:32.

and understand their frustration. I spoke during the backbench debate on

:08:33.:08:36.

this matter in January and congratulated the Waspi campaign.

:08:37.:08:44.

Although any criteria changes will always have an impact on some

:08:45.:08:47.

people, I am conscious these individuals have in many cases

:08:48.:08:53.

worked for decades on the basis they would receive their pensions at a

:08:54.:08:59.

prescribed time. But I am also conscious that with retired list and

:09:00.:09:02.

life expectancy and a number of years it will pay out, they did not

:09:03.:09:07.

expected to reach the level many currently enjoy. These factors have

:09:08.:09:12.

driven successive governments and most nations to increase the pension

:09:13.:09:17.

age. Where I have issues with the motion is that it deals with

:09:18.:09:24.

legislation settled in previous parliaments and employers

:09:25.:09:28.

transitional arrangements. I understand that when the last set of

:09:29.:09:32.

changes were made, a transitional programme was implemented to the

:09:33.:09:38.

tune of over ?1 billion. To manage expectations it would be better to

:09:39.:09:43.

acknowledge that changing these rules would cost ?39 billion and

:09:44.:09:47.

then outline where this money will be saved to pay for the motion to be

:09:48.:09:53.

delivered. I spoke earlier about the need for government to support

:09:54.:09:57.

spending on mental health, especially for young people. Would

:09:58.:10:03.

that be had, or the police budget, the subject of the next opposition

:10:04.:10:09.

motion? I stood on make commitment to pledge budget delivery for 2020,

:10:10.:10:15.

which means this would have to be paid for by someone else. Opposition

:10:16.:10:21.

parties also attempted to cost commitments but I do not recall a

:10:22.:10:26.

commitment to reverse this policy and beer are not managing expect

:10:27.:10:32.

Haitians as it is settled and no party has said where the ?39 million

:10:33.:10:39.

hit will be taken. I am grateful to him for it being way because it

:10:40.:10:43.

enables me to make the point I would have made. To put this sum in

:10:44.:10:49.

context, two ?9 billion, compare that to the annual spend on the NHS

:10:50.:10:58.

of ?120 billion, we then begin to see how difficult it is to make the

:10:59.:11:04.

sums add up. I agree with that and I believe when it comes to fitting the

:11:05.:11:08.

bill, I would have concerns about another group in my contingency,

:11:09.:11:14.

those in their 20s and 30s, sometimes referred to as the

:11:15.:11:17.

high-cost generation because they are saddled with debts University

:11:18.:11:22.

which I and my age group did not have to endure. They are paying high

:11:23.:11:28.

rents and struggling to afford their own home, they are likely to be the

:11:29.:11:34.

subject of future pension changes so I believe in the point just made.

:11:35.:11:40.

Half measured mitigation, if introduced, with revealed the next

:11:41.:11:44.

pension age group to be impacted and we could never move on. The issue of

:11:45.:11:49.

pensions is vexed, it is the case that post retirement life inspect

:11:50.:11:55.

and safe is greater than envisaged when pensions calculations were put

:11:56.:12:00.

in place. With advances to allow those in their 60s to remain fit and

:12:01.:12:05.

active, many in their 60s and beyond are working in a manner which was

:12:06.:12:10.

not envisaged. This is a change in life and working age expectancy and

:12:11.:12:14.

we celebrated because it shows people are living longer and leading

:12:15.:12:19.

figure lies but it means a funding gap, and to avoid placing an

:12:20.:12:25.

obligation on those in their 20s and 30s who were struggling to get on,

:12:26.:12:30.

that gap requires the country to re-evaluate the pension age. This is

:12:31.:12:36.

a settled matter, and until it can be explained which of the current

:12:37.:12:41.

spending commitments will be axed to cover the cost of this ?39 billion

:12:42.:12:44.

change, I cannot support this motion. It has been interesting to

:12:45.:12:52.

hear the passionate arguments on this issue today. I think the first

:12:53.:12:59.

thing we have to point out, this is a political decision. You guys in

:13:00.:13:04.

government decided when that were going to come, we are not asking you

:13:05.:13:10.

to put ?39 billion in, we are saying you not take it out. In the last few

:13:11.:13:16.

months I have had people queueing up at my surgery, 3800 people affected

:13:17.:13:24.

by this change. They feel as if the Government has moved the goalposts.

:13:25.:13:27.

They thought they had a contract with the Government and it seems

:13:28.:13:32.

not, but these are the women who in their early working lives had to

:13:33.:13:37.

give up their job, no such thing as maternity pay, you develop your job

:13:38.:13:42.

and applied for it if you were ready to go back and if there was a job

:13:43.:13:48.

available. These women were not protected by equal pay, earned less

:13:49.:13:53.

than male counterparts and were less able to join a private pension

:13:54.:13:58.

scheme. Nevertheless they acknowledge this and tried to fill

:13:59.:14:02.

the gap. They did not want to be a burden of society but made

:14:03.:14:08.

arrangements and I think they are entitled to a pension they were

:14:09.:14:13.

promised. It seems the Government is not. The people who-spoken to feel

:14:14.:14:23.

as though they have been misled, misinformed and any number of cases

:14:24.:14:28.

not informed at all. They feel the Government is forcing changes on

:14:29.:14:34.

them and nobody is objecting to equality but what we are objecting

:14:35.:14:39.

to is being imposed, difficult financial circumstances, on

:14:40.:14:44.

thousands of people. One woman called cast came to see me upset,

:14:45.:14:49.

she felt frustrated and the minister did not understand the impact these

:14:50.:14:54.

changes have on her life, so in her own words, she said, had you been

:14:55.:15:00.

born 12 months earlier, my retirement age would have been for

:15:01.:15:06.

years sooner. Would that be right? Why has the burden of increase

:15:07.:15:10.

followed in such a short period of time? This is unfair and any

:15:11.:15:17.

intelligent person can see this. Her additional problem is that DWP

:15:18.:15:24.

cannot predict her pension the tours of the number of years she was in an

:15:25.:15:29.

update situation. Is that fair? She is a window and has worked all her

:15:30.:15:35.

life in a range of jobs from NHS, biting sector, self-employed, and

:15:36.:15:40.

now finds everything she has worked for is put on hold. She will have to

:15:41.:15:46.

struggle for a few more years. She feels this is a sad state of affairs

:15:47.:15:50.

and wants to know why this Government is utilising her for

:15:51.:15:56.

working hard all her life. Some transitional arrangements must be in

:15:57.:16:04.

place because women all over the country are put in the same

:16:05.:16:07.

difficult circumstances as people in Blackburn. It is not too late for

:16:08.:16:14.

these women, it is not too late to right the wrongs, transitional

:16:15.:16:24.

arrangements should be made now. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The need for

:16:25.:16:29.

the equalisation of the state pension age is evident. We have an

:16:30.:16:36.

ageing population, people are living healthier and longer lives with a

:16:37.:16:41.

greater proportion drawing a pension while a smaller proportion are

:16:42.:16:44.

contributing through National Insurance. This system risks

:16:45.:16:49.

becoming increasingly difficult to afford without equalisation. At my

:16:50.:16:56.

surgery, a woman called Barbara, who is 59, came to speak to me. She

:16:57.:17:04.

expected to retire at 62 but only recently realised she would have to

:17:05.:17:09.

wait until she was 66 to retire and this is where most of the anger

:17:10.:17:13.

lies, in the notification. Following the changes of 1995, DWP issued a

:17:14.:17:21.

leaflet including direct mail and the advice to public of the changes.

:17:22.:17:29.

In 2004 they ran an information campaign contributing over at 2

:17:30.:17:33.

million pension information guides and adverts to complement an online

:17:34.:17:42.

state pension age calculator. All state pension statement issued from

:17:43.:17:45.

2001 would have included the new state pension age as determined by

:17:46.:17:53.

the 1995 changes and since then over 11 million statements have been

:17:54.:17:59.

issued. Those affected either 2011 changes were informed by letter is

:18:00.:18:04.

sent out and for those of us retiring at 65, in the last few

:18:05.:18:11.

years it has gone to 66 and is now 67 for men and women born in the

:18:12.:18:17.

1960s onwards. Had these efforts been fully successful, we would not

:18:18.:18:23.

be here now debating this issue. This is the fourth debate we have

:18:24.:18:26.

had on this subject in as many nights. -- months. The Waspi has

:18:27.:18:35.

called on the Government to put all women affected by these changes in

:18:36.:18:40.

the same position they would have been born in April 19 50. They want

:18:41.:18:44.

to live the retirement they plan for, following the 2011 changes the

:18:45.:18:51.

Government passed an amendment providing transitional funding to

:18:52.:18:56.

delay the equalisation of the state pension age, on top of bringing the

:18:57.:19:01.

new state pension fraud by four years. To undo the 2011 changes

:19:02.:19:08.

would cost ?30 billion in addition to the loss of ?8 billion in tax

:19:09.:19:15.

revenue. To undo the 1995 changes would cost several times that. The

:19:16.:19:20.

new state pension will come into effect this year and see many women

:19:21.:19:25.

better off than they would have been under the old system. ?460 a year

:19:26.:19:33.

more than they would have got. The triple lock which ensures the same

:19:34.:19:37.

state tension goes up by whichever is higher out of inflation, wages

:19:38.:19:44.

were 2.5%, means the basic state pension will be higher than it was

:19:45.:19:48.

at the start of the last Parliament. The lesson to be learned by all

:19:49.:19:52.

governments is effective communication. Pensions are complex

:19:53.:19:58.

at the best of times and I have a huge amount of sympathy but it is

:19:59.:20:03.

the Government's fault, not just this Conservative government. Waspi

:20:04.:20:08.

women will receive an improved pension for men and women now

:20:09.:20:13.

retiring at the age of 67, they will live longer on average than men,

:20:14.:20:19.

these reforms are fairer for those who receive them and for the younger

:20:20.:20:23.

generation who will have to pay for them. Usually when somebody says to

:20:24.:20:31.

me that so-and-so is being was the it is a signal to tread with care,

:20:32.:20:35.

so when I heard the work women coming to see me at my surgery I

:20:36.:20:45.

trod with care -- Waspy. I did speak in the 2011 second reading debate to

:20:46.:20:51.

point out the women who left Foxhill comprehensive in 1970 word the same

:20:52.:20:56.

women who were affected eye this and it was not fair and there had to be

:20:57.:21:03.

a better deal then two months transitional on this issue. I am

:21:04.:21:08.

aware we are short of time so I will just give voice to those women.

:21:09.:21:15.

Marie says, my story began when I was 15, leaving school at Easter

:21:16.:21:21.

with no qualifications. From the start of my working life at 15 years

:21:22.:21:26.

I paid a full national insurance stamp believing I was entering into

:21:27.:21:31.

a contract. That is a common belief. I understand the need for equality,

:21:32.:21:35.

the 2011 act has given me know time to prepare for working until I am

:21:36.:21:43.

66. Not only that, but things are heating allowance and bus passes

:21:44.:21:48.

etc... That is a key point, those other allowances that people are

:21:49.:21:51.

debarred from. I am a single parent through no fault of my own, day to

:21:52.:21:56.

day life is a struggle because I have a dependent child and a

:21:57.:22:00.

disabled dependent adult child. I am tired, and the thought of working

:22:01.:22:03.

for another five years is daunting to say the least.

:22:04.:22:06.

Christine said, I feel trapped. Her Christine said, I feel trapped. Her

:22:07.:22:11.

choices are being taken away from her.

:22:12.:22:14.

Annette said to me, I was born in May 1954 and my state pension date

:22:15.:22:19.

has moved twice. The first time I fought in writing but it was

:22:20.:22:23.

changing from my 60th birthday to my 64th year. Since then I heard

:22:24.:22:27.

nothing until somebody told me to check the website. I entered my date

:22:28.:22:29.

of birth. The state then came up as of birth. The state then came up as

:22:30.:22:37.

January 2021, another 18 months. -- the data then came up as. I am sure

:22:38.:22:43.

you will agree this is unfair and poor communication.

:22:44.:22:46.

Another woman pointed out to me that her older sister was born in April

:22:47.:22:50.

1952 and has already received her state pension, she is 22 years

:22:51.:22:54.

younger and has to wait an extra five years five months. Not a fairer

:22:55.:23:02.

and not reasonable. I could go on with many other examples. Examples

:23:03.:23:08.

of similar issues. I give way to my honourable friend.

:23:09.:23:14.

I am grateful. There are 3540 women affected in my constituency by the

:23:15.:23:19.

changes. Would-be honourable member agree that the 1995 changes were

:23:20.:23:24.

reasonably well communicated, it is the 2011 changes that were badly

:23:25.:23:30.

communicated and some women affected by the 1995 changes were affected by

:23:31.:23:34.

the 2011 changes, which compound of the issue? She has it spot-on, the

:23:35.:23:41.

communication is one of the issues at the heart of this. Frankly, what

:23:42.:23:47.

happened in 2011 compound did what happened previously and is, strictly

:23:48.:23:52.

speaking, totally unfair. The nature of this debate, which I think has

:23:53.:23:57.

been good once we got to the backbenches, although my honourable

:23:58.:24:00.

friend did very well kicking yourself, I would welcome the

:24:01.:24:03.

comments from the member for black wool North who drew attention to my

:24:04.:24:09.

honourable friend's point about six suggestions and said that was a good

:24:10.:24:17.

starting point. -- Blackpool North. Another person said there was a deal

:24:18.:24:22.

to be done, and I think he is right. For Salisbury and Mid Bedfordshire,

:24:23.:24:26.

those members also encourage the front bench on the Government site

:24:27.:24:33.

to see a way through this, to see a way to put try these injustices.

:24:34.:24:37.

These women are not asking for the world, they are not asking the

:24:38.:24:41.

things that, frankly, some people have suggested, they are asking for

:24:42.:24:45.

a reasonable settlement, a reasonable deal, which is what they

:24:46.:24:53.

deserve. Women of a certain age, of which I am one, across the United

:24:54.:24:57.

Kingdom, are angry at the position they find themselves in. If they

:24:58.:25:03.

were born in March 1953, as the jail in the Jack and Jill twin scenario,

:25:04.:25:08.

they will be absolutely livid. Jack will be getting ?155 a week under

:25:09.:25:13.

the single tier state pension, Jill will be getting ?131, because she

:25:14.:25:18.

was born a woman. Where is the justice in Jack netting ?20,000 more

:25:19.:25:24.

over 20 years than his sister Jill? That is ridiculous. We all know

:25:25.:25:30.

women who do not have access to a private pension who find themselves

:25:31.:25:33.

in a position where they are forced to look for work or, if they take

:25:34.:25:38.

the advice of the Minister opposite, they can sign on for JS saved. It is

:25:39.:25:43.

a slap in the face for every woman who has dedicated themselves to

:25:44.:25:47.

being the back bone of this country. -- sign on for JSA. The absence of

:25:48.:25:53.

the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, though I am told he is

:25:54.:25:56.

loitering outside but unwilling to come in and defend his Government's

:25:57.:26:01.

policies, is an absolute insult to these women. I am aware of a

:26:02.:26:06.

60-year-old woman who had to find employment as a bus as called for a

:26:07.:26:10.

special needs school. This involves physically manoeuvring youngsters

:26:11.:26:16.

from the vehicle into the building. It is hard, heavy and demanding. How

:26:17.:26:20.

do I know this? Because I did that job in my 30s and I couldn't do it

:26:21.:26:27.

now. The changes to women's pensions are categorically unfair and unjust.

:26:28.:26:31.

Everyone in this chamber and, indeed, across the country, will

:26:32.:26:36.

have heard about the WASPI campaign. We have heard the analogies about

:26:37.:26:39.

the sting in the tail, the buzz in the ad, did anybody really think

:26:40.:26:45.

that in three short months of 2016 we would have debated this issue so

:26:46.:26:50.

many times? That is the power of this lobby. They have proved time

:26:51.:26:55.

and time again that they are fighting on the platform that

:26:56.:27:00.

resonates right across this country. Everyone will know at least one

:27:01.:27:04.

woman affected by this injustice. The women are only asking for

:27:05.:27:09.

fairness. They have been betrayed, been discriminated against, they

:27:10.:27:13.

have been seen as a soft option by this Government. They were seen as

:27:14.:27:16.

the one group that could be pushed to one side to rush through the

:27:17.:27:21.

transitional equal retirement age. The Government bench thought they

:27:22.:27:27.

would save money, in reality they have lost credibility, lost respect

:27:28.:27:31.

and been exposed by this wonderful group of strong women as being

:27:32.:27:34.

petty, arrogant and, quite frankly, ridiculous.

:27:35.:27:41.

Thank you. I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak on this

:27:42.:27:45.

important issue and I would like to thank the women of the WASPI

:27:46.:27:48.

campaign for their tireless efforts in persisting to bring this to

:27:49.:27:52.

Government attention. I want to speak for the women in my

:27:53.:27:56.

constituency, Burnley, for the thousands of women affected by this.

:27:57.:28:01.

There has been much talk about the impact that this will have on the

:28:02.:28:05.

financial impact and what the cost would be. Let's not forget that

:28:06.:28:10.

these women are taxpayers that have worked hard and paid in. This is not

:28:11.:28:15.

a benefit they ask for, this is a right that they are entitled to.

:28:16.:28:20.

Talking about impact, I have talked to women in my constituency who are

:28:21.:28:24.

physically struggling every day to cope with their physical job. I

:28:25.:28:29.

spoke to one lady at the weekend in tears as she told me about her many

:28:30.:28:33.

years of working in an engineering foundry, she is staggering onto

:28:34.:28:39.

retirement age, in bed at 7:30pm, barely able to make to the bus

:28:40.:28:42.

station to get the bus home, working on the minimum age, -- wage, long

:28:43.:28:48.

years, the only light at the ends of the tunnel was retirement age at 60,

:28:49.:28:52.

she thought she might stagger onto that. Not only were the goalposts

:28:53.:28:58.

moved, but the communication was not there. Let's not get into the blame

:28:59.:29:06.

game, whose fault it was, she did not. There has been talk about 2011,

:29:07.:29:12.

19 95. I was not a member of Parliament then. I would say we are

:29:13.:29:16.

where we are. Let's tackle the problem in front of us now.

:29:17.:29:19.

Honourable members on both sides have made sensible suggestions about

:29:20.:29:26.

sitting down together around the table, cross-party, not scoring

:29:27.:29:30.

political points, sitting down with the WASPI women and working out a

:29:31.:29:33.

solution to this terrible mess. Thank you. I congratulate WASPI on

:29:34.:29:40.

the highly effective campaign, particularly those women from Mike

:29:41.:29:45.

constituency who have come to my surgeries. Women across the UK have

:29:46.:29:49.

been hit hard by this, many to their surprise and dismay as their plans

:29:50.:29:57.

have been disrupted, not least for caring for their parents all four

:29:58.:30:03.

children and grandchildren. So often they face unemployment with little

:30:04.:30:08.

hope of getting a job, a bleak life on benefits at a time when they

:30:09.:30:10.

should be enjoying the fruits of their long of work. Plaid Cymru

:30:11.:30:20.

supports equalisation. It is a step towards recognising how

:30:21.:30:23.

circumstances have changed radically since the pension brought in by my

:30:24.:30:27.

predecessor before, as member for can often, Lloyd George, when men

:30:28.:30:33.

did work for the money and generally supported women, and women worked

:30:34.:30:39.

for free. It is not equalisation that is so unfair, but rather the

:30:40.:30:43.

way the Government is bringing it in. As far as my country is

:30:44.:30:47.

concerned, I would say the Government is making the changes in

:30:48.:30:53.

response to the life expectancy, as one of the women who contacted me

:30:54.:30:57.

said, it is our fault for living longer. Both life expectancy and

:30:58.:31:05.

life experience varies significantly depending on class and, crucially,

:31:06.:31:08.

where you live. Women in Wales will be hit particularly hard by these

:31:09.:31:12.

changes. Life expectancy is generally lower in Wales than

:31:13.:31:17.

England, up to 11 years difference. Welsh women and men have less

:31:18.:31:20.

opportunity to enjoy their retirement, incomes in Wales are

:31:21.:31:26.

low, so they have already suffered the disproportionate disadvantage.

:31:27.:31:31.

Job opportunities after you and more insecure, reticulin DM Simcock

:31:32.:31:35.

constituency is -- job opportunities are fewer. Particularly in some

:31:36.:31:45.

constituencies. I as a question, it was smiled sympathetically and the

:31:46.:31:48.

minister talks about Romania and Bulgaria. Disgracefully, that is

:31:49.:31:54.

where we are in income in Wales, on a par with Romania and Bulgaria.

:31:55.:31:59.

Wales has the lowest income per head of the UK nations and regions. Equal

:32:00.:32:04.

treatment of men and women as to the state pension is good, but the way

:32:05.:32:07.

the Government has handled this matter is not good. It is a

:32:08.:32:17.

disgrace, in fact. 1950s born women are not usually seen as a militant

:32:18.:32:23.

group, they were born and raised in that era of, hello, honey, I'm home,

:32:24.:32:27.

spotless perfection, domestic bliss and Formica. At the situation they

:32:28.:32:32.

find themselves in is far from perfect. I have only been an MP

:32:33.:32:38.

since May, and like several members have mentioned, it feels a bit like

:32:39.:32:42.

groundhog Day, this is the third time I have existed. At other times

:32:43.:32:47.

they could not even get into the room, it was standing room only at

:32:48.:32:51.

Westminster Hall. The television show Desperate Housewives comes to

:32:52.:32:56.

mind, but the valiant WASPI women are far from desperate, they are

:32:57.:33:02.

valiant. This Government does now have to act, I believe. The public

:33:03.:33:06.

are making their voices heard, the Government is on the wrong side of

:33:07.:33:09.

public opinion. It feels like Groundhog Day. It is not only

:33:10.:33:14.

falling on deaf ears but there is a broken record routine coming in when

:33:15.:33:22.

we are told there is no money left. At the same time, we constantly hear

:33:23.:33:25.

we are in a period where economic growth is returning, things are

:33:26.:33:31.

looking grow -- Rosie, the things do not reconcile. We are talking about

:33:32.:33:35.

people who have been hit, everybody says, twice. Double whammy is the

:33:36.:33:40.

phrase that keeps coming up in the e-mails I have received. 1895 and

:33:41.:33:46.

2011. I have heard the rejoinder from opposite that the 1997 Labour

:33:47.:33:52.

Government did not do anything about the 1995 issue, surely the

:33:53.:33:56.

Government at that time, the Conservative Government, the civil

:33:57.:33:59.

servant should have had a work plan in place. If people were not all

:34:00.:34:03.

notified there should have been provision for that to keep

:34:04.:34:07.

happening. But because that Government was presumably saving

:34:08.:34:09.

money on communications or something, it didn't happen. As many

:34:10.:34:16.

have said, we are where we are. I, like many people here, have received

:34:17.:34:21.

many, many representations from different people. Michelle Carlyle,

:34:22.:34:27.

born in 1954, Linda Gregory, born in 1953. People have pointed out that

:34:28.:34:31.

they started work at 15, as one of them said to me, which is probably a

:34:32.:34:37.

good ten years before you did. Their circumstances are different to what

:34:38.:34:41.

happens today. Remember, the Equal Pay Act did not come in until a

:34:42.:34:45.

Labour Government put that in a 1976. These are people who were

:34:46.:34:51.

often ringing up children before free childcare, free nurseries, all

:34:52.:34:56.

those things that Labour governments put in. We need to be sympathetic to

:34:57.:35:02.

their plight. In this debate, people have confused the WASPI petition and

:35:03.:35:06.

the wording of this motion. Nobody is arguing against equality, nobody

:35:07.:35:14.

is saying that there should be company 's compensation back to the

:35:15.:35:19.

levels these people would have had, it is merely asking for transitional

:35:20.:35:24.

agreements to soften the blow. Some others in this campaign have been

:35:25.:35:29.

many macro people like Paul Lewis of BBC's money box, a former

:35:30.:35:34.

constituent of mine, Martin Lewis of money-saving expert. I urge members

:35:35.:35:40.

on the other side to vote with us for transitional arrangements,

:35:41.:35:43.

seeing as so much money has been found down the back of the sofa for

:35:44.:35:44.

so many things. The previous pensions minister in

:35:45.:35:55.

the coalition Steve Webb has admitted people will be hard done

:35:56.:36:02.

by. In the 17 seconds left I will say this great pensions swindle has

:36:03.:36:09.

to end now. Mr Deputy Speaker, I very much welcome the opportunity to

:36:10.:36:13.

make another contribution on this issue. I would like to take this

:36:14.:36:20.

opportunity to pay tribute to the WASPI campaign for continuing to

:36:21.:36:22.

fight for a transitional arrangement that will protect it from the most

:36:23.:36:29.

damaging consequences of the rush. All these women are asking for is

:36:30.:36:34.

fairness and I commend them. This is the fourth time this issue has been

:36:35.:36:39.

debated in this house, it shows the strength of feeling that exists on

:36:40.:36:43.

this issue, exposes the injustice, and highlights the struggles many

:36:44.:36:48.

women face on a daily basis. A lot of the damage was done with the 95

:36:49.:36:52.

act, however the Coalition Government exacerbated the

:36:53.:36:58.

situation. And this government's refusal to correct the situation is

:36:59.:37:02.

political folly. These women have paid into a system or the lives, it

:37:03.:37:05.

is only right that the government steps in to right this wrong for

:37:06.:37:09.

these women. Responding to the motion the minister shamefully chose

:37:10.:37:15.

to repeat the accusation that WASPI are against equalisation. No they

:37:16.:37:20.

are not. The Minister knows this. To use this line in argument again does

:37:21.:37:25.

disservice to this debate, and to the women sitting in the gallery now

:37:26.:37:28.

and watching at home, and a disservice to the struggles these

:37:29.:37:31.

women now face as a result of the rug being pulled from under their

:37:32.:37:36.

feet just when they need it most. I was hoping the Minister would give

:37:37.:37:42.

the WASPI women are better response than the pitiful one given before.

:37:43.:37:52.

Sadly I was wrong. Mr Deputy Speaker, I run 13 surgeries a month

:37:53.:37:55.

and over the last two to three months the majority of constituents

:37:56.:37:58.

attending have raised this very issue. I would like to highlight

:37:59.:38:05.

some of the heartbreaking stories I have heard at the surgeries. Many of

:38:06.:38:10.

these women have been looking forward to having more time for

:38:11.:38:13.

themselves, only to find out with a couple of months notice they would

:38:14.:38:17.

not retire at 60 as they thought. One lady who did not want her name

:38:18.:38:22.

mentioned recently came to see me. She has worked all her life from the

:38:23.:38:25.

age of 17 and built a career for herself which she had to give up in

:38:26.:38:31.

order to care for her husband. She worked part-time and has never been

:38:32.:38:36.

on benefits. She stopped working at 58 because of her health, thinking

:38:37.:38:39.

she would get both her state pension and a small civil service pension at

:38:40.:38:44.

60. She has never received any letters from the DWP and only found

:38:45.:38:48.

out about the changes to the pension through word-of-mouth. Miss Miller

:38:49.:38:55.

also receive no letter. The changes have made an impact on her finances,

:38:56.:38:59.

forcing her to sell her car and her house in order to cut down on her

:39:00.:39:05.

work in the future. She has suffered from a bee which makes it difficult

:39:06.:39:08.

for her to continue working as a teacher. If the minister listening

:39:09.:39:15.

to this? I think you owe Miss Miller courtesy of listening this speech.

:39:16.:39:20.

She will have to work a lot longer than anticipated, she also has

:39:21.:39:24.

caring responsibilities, caring for her mum three days a week. The fact

:39:25.:39:29.

she has to work six years longer means she has six is less to spend

:39:30.:39:35.

with her mum. I challenge the Minister to respond to them and

:39:36.:39:39.

advise what they should do to ease their financial worries given their

:39:40.:39:40.

poor health and financial circumstances. My constituents are

:39:41.:39:46.

watching this debate, WASPI campaigners are watching this

:39:47.:39:49.

debate, the women in the public galleries are watching this debate,

:39:50.:39:52.

we are all waiting for the government to finally wake up to the

:39:53.:39:55.

situation, show some humility and respond appropriately. Thank you Mr

:39:56.:40:03.

Speaker. It has already been said by previous speakers in this debate

:40:04.:40:07.

that pensions are not a benefit, they are a contract, and the

:40:08.:40:12.

government has broken that contract. And if this were done by a private

:40:13.:40:16.

company they would be sued for mis-selling. When the terms of a

:40:17.:40:21.

contract changed there must be notification, actual notification,

:40:22.:40:24.

not Westminster politicians talking to each other, and there must be

:40:25.:40:29.

mitigation when someone is disadvantaged. And in this case the

:40:30.:40:33.

government must take responsibility and correct this. What future for

:40:34.:40:38.

our pensions system if citizens cannot trust government promises

:40:39.:40:44.

that when they pay in they will receive their due out at an agreed

:40:45.:40:47.

time? Do you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me and my

:40:48.:40:55.

constituents of, when you buy a car from a used car salesman, and the

:40:56.:40:59.

car turns out to be dodgy, and you bring it back and the looks at the

:41:00.:41:05.

car, scratches his head and says, you know, I'd really like to help

:41:06.:41:10.

you out but I just can't. We are told that the government will not

:41:11.:41:14.

move on this issue to put an appropriate transitional measure in.

:41:15.:41:18.

But the greater cost of not asking Ellie acting is the cost of

:41:19.:41:22.

betraying all the women, many of whom spent a lifetime in low pay

:41:23.:41:26.

literally kicking their pockets and further alienating people from the

:41:27.:41:32.

cosy Westminster establishment. We are told that money for transitional

:41:33.:41:37.

arrangements cannot be found. Well, Mr chair, I suspect that if

:41:38.:41:41.

companies like Google paid their taxes, the government would find it

:41:42.:41:48.

had more money in their pot. Choices, choices, politics is

:41:49.:41:53.

nothing if it is not about choices. If the government does not act on

:41:54.:41:57.

this issue then it has no alternative but to hang its head in

:41:58.:42:02.

shame. The WASPI campaigners are calling for a review into the way

:42:03.:42:06.

changes to the state pension age were implemented under the 1995 and

:42:07.:42:11.

2011 pensions act. What's wrong with that? Other European governments

:42:12.:42:16.

have brought in pension equalisation arrangements without the distress,

:42:17.:42:22.

chaos caused by Discover meant as it tries to pick women's pockets, and

:42:23.:42:26.

why is this? -- caused by this government. Other European

:42:27.:42:32.

governments have not made a Horlicks of it, this is clock up and in

:42:33.:42:40.

concert and is written large. I am sick of them boosting of a flat rate

:42:41.:42:46.

pension of ?165 per week, apart from the fact that is utterly irrelevant

:42:47.:42:51.

to this debate, the fact is, so many people, when they do reach pension

:42:52.:42:54.

age, will receive much, much less than this, because they will not

:42:55.:42:59.

have paid enough National Insurance. And it is those in the private

:43:00.:43:03.

sector, the low paid, those earning less than around ?15,000 per year

:43:04.:43:08.

who will be hit hardest. And these people are much more likely to be

:43:09.:43:14.

female than male. What is required is an independent commission to

:43:15.:43:17.

prevent further gender inequalities and ensure we can get a fair

:43:18.:43:22.

universal pension system that looks at injustice is coming down the

:43:23.:43:25.

track in the form of the flat rate pension which will leave many of

:43:26.:43:28.

those in low pay on lower pensions than they otherwise would have

:43:29.:43:33.

benefited from. So far the government has not been listening to

:43:34.:43:36.

the WASPI campaigners, they've not been listening to the vote is taken

:43:37.:43:39.

in this house, and I urged them to do so. What is required here is

:43:40.:43:47.

fairness and natural justice, and it really is time the government held

:43:48.:43:53.

its head up and faced these head on. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. This is

:43:54.:44:00.

the fourth WASPI transition debate as spoken in, I must admit it's hard

:44:01.:44:04.

to find something new to say, but I noticed the Minister has had the

:44:05.:44:09.

same problem. That performance at the dispatch box was a disgrace. He

:44:10.:44:13.

said he would talk about discretion arrangements and he didn't come here

:44:14.:44:17.

avoided the issue the whole time, took interventions and fudged the

:44:18.:44:21.

whole issue. Can I also remind the Minister of a suggestion he made

:44:22.:44:28.

previously, he said women could make use of pension freedoms to help

:44:29.:44:31.

themselves bridge the gap to transition to state pension age. For

:44:32.:44:36.

me that shows that the minister does not understand that women are less

:44:37.:44:39.

likely to have pensions and the pensions they do have are more

:44:40.:44:43.

likely to be low in value. To suggest they should blow the savings

:44:44.:44:50.

as a medial measure instead of the government helping out is crazy and

:44:51.:44:54.

irresponsible. Can I also make the minister aware of another issue

:44:55.:44:57.

which is ongoing at the moment? Which could camp ground matters and

:44:58.:45:01.

affect peoples choice. -- compound matters. That is the exit cap. This

:45:02.:45:13.

will further limit choice of people. The ?95,000 cap will not affect the

:45:14.:45:16.

so-called fat cats but in many cases long serving lower paid workers. The

:45:17.:45:24.

cap in its current format covers pension funds which an employer

:45:25.:45:27.

requires to pay for early and in health retirement. This means people

:45:28.:45:33.

who take ill health retirement might have the money due to them capped

:45:34.:45:36.

because of this government, which compounds matters. At exit cap also

:45:37.:45:45.

prevents operating schemes such as teacher first, which allows higher

:45:46.:45:50.

paid experienced teachers retirement, which allows younger

:45:51.:45:54.

teachers to be employed, saving the taxpayer money overall and creating

:45:55.:45:56.

jobs follow younger teachers. Combine this cap, it will be a bad

:45:57.:46:04.

deal for individuals, local authorities, and the taxpayer

:46:05.:46:10.

overall. Another potential impact of increasing the state pension age is

:46:11.:46:15.

making more women financially dependent on male partners. That's

:46:16.:46:20.

bad for their personal esteem, bad relationships, potentially damaging

:46:21.:46:25.

if there are domestic abuse cases and women find themselves in

:46:26.:46:31.

financial trouble because of this. Women are having to undergo stress,

:46:32.:46:35.

internal concern because of the bombshell dropped on them, that's

:46:36.:46:39.

another possible consequence. That's why this government, instead of

:46:40.:46:43.

ignoring what is going on, should be thinking about the consequences and

:46:44.:46:48.

doing something about it. They hide behind this ?30 billion estimate.

:46:49.:46:54.

People today are asking for protection arrangements. I can tell

:46:55.:46:58.

you the ?30 million can be found to do a full reversal. This government

:46:59.:47:04.

found an extra ?60 million to spend in the defence review to add to

:47:05.:47:13.

Trident. They have allocated ?12 million for the right to buy for

:47:14.:47:18.

social housing. They can introduce a mansion tax, reverse inheritance

:47:19.:47:22.

tax, stop adding more people into that other place, these are all

:47:23.:47:27.

choices. Choices to spend more money or subsidise other cases. The

:47:28.:47:39.

government has already lost court cases regarding the bedroom tax.

:47:40.:47:43.

There is a great chance they will lose another court case because of

:47:44.:47:47.

the unfairness of this measure. It has a ready been said it is a

:47:48.:47:52.

complete breach-of-contract. So please, I asked the Minister to take

:47:53.:47:57.

account of this and put into place transitional arrangements. Thank you

:47:58.:48:06.

Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased to finally be able to take part in this

:48:07.:48:11.

debate on transitional state pension arrangements. As has been pointed

:48:12.:48:16.

out, we've had many debates recently on the subject of women's state

:48:17.:48:21.

pension age and equality. But now we are actually talking about practical

:48:22.:48:26.

solutions, and we are seriously considering transitional

:48:27.:48:29.

arrangements. And remember, this is transition, it's not forever, and it

:48:30.:48:36.

won't cost ?30 billion or ?39 billion or whatever all the figures

:48:37.:48:38.

have been floating around this chamber. Transitional payments will

:48:39.:48:45.

help all those women born in the 1950s who have suffered a double

:48:46.:48:50.

whammy from both the 1995 and the 2011 pension acts. Those women who

:48:51.:48:57.

have e-mailed, written, phoned, Facebook, tweeted me and fellow MPs

:48:58.:49:03.

upon seeing their plans for retirement disintegrate. The basic

:49:04.:49:08.

issue here is fairness. And all we're asking for is for the women

:49:09.:49:13.

affected to fairly treated. This particular group of women has not

:49:14.:49:16.

been communicated with properly. Many of them tell me that they

:49:17.:49:21.

either did not receive letters or that the letters they did receive

:49:22.:49:25.

were unclear. And contrary to the view held by some in this chamber,

:49:26.:49:29.

the women against state pension in equality campaign is not asking to

:49:30.:49:35.

go back to receiving state pensions at 60. What they are asking for is

:49:36.:49:40.

simply fair treatment. These are women who work part-time, who were

:49:41.:49:43.

not even eligible for their occupational pension schemes when

:49:44.:49:47.

they started work. These are women who gave up work to bring up

:49:48.:49:52.

children, effecting their personal occupational pension if they were

:49:53.:49:56.

lucky to have one. These are women who have worked in difficult

:49:57.:50:00.

conditions, many of whom have had to retire early because of ill health.

:50:01.:50:06.

These are women who, as well as bringing up children, are now

:50:07.:50:10.

shouldering the burden of caring for elderly relatives in their later

:50:11.:50:15.

lives. These women have all been through the doors of my surgeries in

:50:16.:50:19.

my constituency, and I'm sure the story is familiar to all honourable

:50:20.:50:25.

and Right Honourable members. My constituents frequently urge me to

:50:26.:50:28.

take this argument to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. I

:50:29.:50:33.

have extreme difficulty doing this, as in the many debates we've had on

:50:34.:50:37.

this subject, he has not attended a single one.

:50:38.:50:42.

Jackie, one of my constituents, introduced herself to me as June 54

:50:43.:50:51.

and furious. She made a very valid point that denying her access to her

:50:52.:50:57.

state pension until she is 66 also denies her entitlement to

:50:58.:51:00.

concessionary travel and to the Winter fuel allowance. Jackie

:51:01.:51:06.

started work in 1971, but had to take early retirement from the

:51:07.:51:10.

police service in order to care for an elderly relative. My honourable

:51:11.:51:15.

friend the shadows that has made six helpful suggestions as to how fair

:51:16.:51:21.

transition may be put in place to help women like Jackie -- my

:51:22.:51:25.

honourable friend, the Shadow Secretary of State. Let's stop

:51:26.:51:29.

prevaricating, I await the Minister's response to these

:51:30.:51:34.

suggestions which has been supported by many on his side of the house.

:51:35.:51:39.

Let's help turn Jackie from June 54 and furious to June 54 and finally

:51:40.:51:48.

fairly transitioned. Mark Durkan. Thank you, Mr Deputy

:51:49.:51:53.

Speaker. Like others, I regret that much of the debate at the dispatch

:51:54.:51:59.

botched... Box was about fixing the blame rather than fixing the

:52:00.:52:03.

problem, that is the honourable member for Pontypridd put forward a

:52:04.:52:06.

six-pack of options which he rightly asked the Government to put forward.

:52:07.:52:12.

Let's remember the salient point of this motion is called on the

:52:13.:52:16.

Government to bring forward proposals for transitional

:52:17.:52:19.

arrangements for women and firstly affected by the acceleration of the

:52:20.:52:23.

increase in state pension age. -- add firstly affected. It is logical

:52:24.:52:28.

and reasonable, that is why the member for Worthing East is prepared

:52:29.:52:32.

to supported. I would ask them of his colleagues to join them, not

:52:33.:52:37.

least ones who fought violently and valiantly to restore things for the

:52:38.:52:41.

Equitable Life members and called on the taxpayer to make sure they were

:52:42.:52:46.

supported and restored to some position of equivalence and use

:52:47.:52:50.

taxpayers' money. If people were prepared to fight for Equitable

:52:51.:52:55.

Life, they should not be indifferent to the WASPI women aren't what they

:52:56.:52:59.

face. We should be responding to them with justice. It is not just

:53:00.:53:04.

the issue of a breach of trust and breach-of-contract, we have the

:53:05.:53:08.

question of moral hazard. If Parliament will say, we can be quite

:53:09.:53:11.

capricious with state pension, we send out a pension... Signal to

:53:12.:53:17.

private pension providers that they can do what they want and we will

:53:18.:53:21.

not be able to reprimand or interfere, we send out a dangerous

:53:22.:53:26.

single to the people we are encouraging to have confidence in

:53:27.:53:29.

show responsibility in terms of pension planning, that's what

:53:30.:53:32.

happens to their mother shows that even when you make provision for

:53:33.:53:36.

pensions you do not even get what you thought, they change the rules

:53:37.:53:40.

on you, so don't bother about pensions, just see what you get.

:53:41.:53:45.

We need to remember that we should not be offering the mixture of

:53:46.:53:49.

conceit and deceit that we were hearing from some of the honourable

:53:50.:53:53.

members opposite. We were told by the honourable member for Bexhill

:53:54.:53:57.

and Battle that this matter is settled and can't be touched,

:53:58.:54:02.

because it was settled when? By Parliament in 2011, so it is settled

:54:03.:54:07.

and we cannot touch it. They are telling us about Parliamentary

:54:08.:54:12.

sovereignty! They are saying we want is standard to the EU but are hiding

:54:13.:54:16.

behind a completely false explanation of EU rules and

:54:17.:54:21.

requirements in defence of this intentional injustice visited upon

:54:22.:54:24.

these women. It is not just a case of what the honourable member says a

:54:25.:54:29.

line has to be drawn somewhere. These are not just some haphazard

:54:30.:54:34.

victims of a drive-by cut in the name of austerity, they have been

:54:35.:54:38.

carefully selected and calculated as the victims. Why? Because they have

:54:39.:54:42.

been used to inequality and injustice all of their life, they

:54:43.:54:46.

have received inequality in terms of gender pay gap is, being denied

:54:47.:54:50.

access to second pensions at a time when male colleagues given access.

:54:51.:54:56.

The name now seems to be, oh, give them one more twist of injustice in

:54:57.:55:00.

the name of equalisation, as they come to the end of their working

:55:01.:55:05.

life. That is a travesty offering people stone for bread, this

:55:06.:55:10.

Parliament should be doing better. Currently in parliament we have

:55:11.:55:14.

legislation going through which will be changing legislation through the

:55:15.:55:18.

last parliament. The financial services act and the banking reform

:55:19.:55:21.

bill went through, they have been changed by legislation going

:55:22.:55:26.

through, the enterprise Bill is changing legislation, so is the

:55:27.:55:29.

Trade Union Bill. Yesterday we had the welfare reform and work bill,

:55:30.:55:33.

which is changing legislation which went through in the last Parliament.

:55:34.:55:38.

You can change legislation to bring cuts but not to bring justice.

:55:39.:55:44.

Compared with 2011, we have pension freedoms, a tax windfall for the

:55:45.:55:48.

Treasury with that. Look at the new fiscal amber that is coming with

:55:49.:55:51.

those pension freedoms and use that to give pension justice.

:55:52.:56:00.

Order! Shadow Minister! Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is great to

:56:01.:56:10.

follow the excellent speech from the member all Foyle. There has been a

:56:11.:56:15.

lot of interest, thanks to the 154,000 people who have signed the

:56:16.:56:21.

petition by the WASPI campaigners. And their sterling work. There was

:56:22.:56:25.

standing room only in the Westminster Hall debate, this was my

:56:26.:56:31.

first debate. The issue was of significant importance to all

:56:32.:56:34.

members across the house. We heard from many about these women who feel

:56:35.:56:39.

ill-prepared and short-changed by the failure to communicate and

:56:40.:56:43.

deliver full transitional arrangements. There has been some

:56:44.:56:47.

excellent points made by honourable members during the course of the

:56:48.:56:50.

debate today illustrating the stark reality faced by many women trying

:56:51.:56:54.

to plan for retirement in the context of these changes. Excellent

:56:55.:56:59.

contributions, passionate contributions have been made on

:57:00.:57:02.

behalf of constituents from all sides of the house. I would like to

:57:03.:57:06.

make particular dedication and put on the record my thanks for the

:57:07.:57:14.

members from Paisley in Renfrewshire, East Worthing, sure

:57:15.:57:16.

home and others, because there has been supported cross party for the

:57:17.:57:20.

WASPI women and the difficulties they face.

:57:21.:57:24.

I know it is difficult for members on the opposite side of the bench to

:57:25.:57:28.

go against their Government at times and speak out against their

:57:29.:57:31.

Government, I would like to pay particular credit to those people

:57:32.:57:35.

who have done that. The member for Mid Bedfordshire, Blackpool North,

:57:36.:57:40.

Salisbury and East Worthing and Shoreham. I know it is difficult to

:57:41.:57:44.

make those passionate speeches and I thank you for your contribution

:57:45.:57:46.

today. I would also say to the members

:57:47.:57:57.

opposite who have also... I almost called them Tories, that is how we

:57:58.:58:02.

call them locally, I am being nice, the members opposite for Gloucester,

:58:03.:58:07.

Bexhill battle, Weaver Vale and Sherwood. It is not about racing

:58:08.:58:13.

back to the 1950s, the 1995 changes. We have given options, I have asked

:58:14.:58:18.

the minister many times to give me costings of what transitional

:58:19.:58:20.

arrangements are in place, I would urge them to look at their

:58:21.:58:25.

conscience, the passionate but debate we have had, vote accordingly

:58:26.:58:29.

and support the motion today. I would like to mention the member for

:58:30.:58:36.

Warrington North, Washington and Sunderland, Stanley Bridge in

:58:37.:58:40.

height, who was apparently a great feminist, although not so much as I

:58:41.:58:45.

am, the member for Blackburn, Scunthorpe... OK, maybe the same!

:58:46.:58:53.

Scunthorpe, Swansea East, Burnley, Ealing Central and Acton and Hayward

:58:54.:58:57.

and Middleton, and other honourable members who have spoken in support

:58:58.:59:02.

of the motion today, Paisley and Renfrewshire North, North Ayrshire

:59:03.:59:07.

and Arran, kill Manet, I am so relieved I got all of those

:59:08.:59:10.

constituencies correct, that kept me awake at night, not the Minister.

:59:11.:59:16.

But despite the views from members from all sides of this house, the

:59:17.:59:21.

Secretary of State today has still refused to look at transitional

:59:22.:59:27.

protections for these women. Hindsight is wonderful, but it is

:59:28.:59:30.

crucial that we now learn from those mistakes of the past and act

:59:31.:59:37.

accordingly. We know that ministers' predecessors had hoped for around a

:59:38.:59:40.

tenth of the direct savings of ?3 billion to beat put aside for

:59:41.:59:47.

transitional arrangements. The option eventually put forward was

:59:48.:59:52.

around a third of that. We have a missing ?2 billion which has gone to

:59:53.:59:55.

the Treasury along with the rest of the savings. There are different

:59:56.:59:59.

options, we have heard many today which have been put forward for

:00:00.:00:05.

consideration. The Government has still failed to respond to them.

:00:06.:00:12.

I am grateful. She has referred to the ?1.1 billion, which brought it

:00:13.:00:21.

down to 18 months. We are told that only 20% roughly are left at 18

:00:22.:00:26.

months, so the cost would be ?200 million. Can we put it to Government

:00:27.:00:31.

that ?200 million would have bought the loyalty of the rest of us this

:00:32.:00:37.

evening, but it won't if they don't. I thank the honourable member for

:00:38.:00:41.

his intervention and I hope that the minister will answer that question.

:00:42.:00:45.

Of course, the bill of just over ?1 billion that was put in, according

:00:46.:00:50.

to my research, over half of that was to men.

:00:51.:00:53.

This is not the first time that these pensions have asked for

:00:54.:00:57.

consideration that the Government has made -- these benches have

:00:58.:01:01.

asked. I would really like to see and hear what the Government has

:01:02.:01:05.

done to try to look at transitions. We have had many, many debates, as

:01:06.:01:09.

other members have rightly said, since then. This is an issue that

:01:10.:01:16.

crosses party lines, people watching this debate today are incredibly

:01:17.:01:20.

proud of where I have come from. I was a home help. Many women pushed

:01:21.:01:24.

me into coming to the House of Commons, they will be watching this

:01:25.:01:28.

debate, affected by these changes. When I stood for Parliament I was

:01:29.:01:33.

asked, what do you think is your proudest moment? I would say

:01:34.:01:37.

delivering equal pay, standing up for women's rights. We have a choice

:01:38.:01:41.

today, an absolute choice, to do the right thing. Any members have said

:01:42.:01:47.

that. I hope the Minister listens to the debate today, I hope the

:01:48.:01:53.

Government do the right thing. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am

:01:54.:01:57.

sorry that the time limit prevents me from paying credit to all of the

:01:58.:02:01.

speakers today. There has clearly been real passion, well thought out

:02:02.:02:05.

and measured responses on both sides of the House, talking about the

:02:06.:02:10.

challenges we face, concerns raised directly by residents and the work

:02:11.:02:15.

of the WASPI campaign, which I know many embers have paid close

:02:16.:02:19.

attention to. Credit to the honourable member for Washington and

:02:20.:02:22.

Sunderland, the member for Sunderland and Burnley, the quickest

:02:23.:02:26.

speaker today to give some extra people's extra time. I understand

:02:27.:02:31.

the challenge that my honourable friend for East Worthing and

:02:32.:02:35.

Shoreham and my honourable friend from Mid Bedfordshire have found

:02:36.:02:39.

themselves in. It is a difficult decision, particularly to gob

:02:40.:02:43.

against your own Government. I would gently say that my honourable friend

:02:44.:02:49.

for Blackpool North and Cleethorpes, Weaver Vale, Salisbury, Gloucester,

:02:50.:02:54.

they set out in great detail the wider issues and challenges we face.

:02:55.:02:59.

Key to that, as was so eloquently put by my honourable friend for

:03:00.:03:05.

Sherwood and Bexhill and Battle, yes, the opposition has set out six

:03:06.:03:10.

options which are very attractive, how simple life would be if we could

:03:11.:03:15.

simply say yes to all six or any number of those six options?

:03:16.:03:20.

Wouldn't it be simple? But not a single one has been costed out, not

:03:21.:03:26.

a single one has suggested what we shouldn't we be doing. There is a

:03:27.:03:33.

vague guesswork occasionally, these are exactly the same things. There

:03:34.:03:38.

were debates yesterday in Westminster Hall, the same vague

:03:39.:03:42.

ideas. Because of time I will not do that. Mr Deputy Speaker, we have to

:03:43.:03:49.

look, the acceleration of the state pension equalisation being offered

:03:50.:03:52.

by this government in order to achieve gender equality in state

:03:53.:03:55.

pension provision and provide a sustainable system to work for

:03:56.:04:00.

future generations, often that is what is forgotten. It is always

:04:01.:04:05.

about now, now, now, not the future generations, our children and our

:04:06.:04:09.

children's children. Politicians have often just bequeathed more

:04:10.:04:14.

deaths to them. Due to highlight expectancies and the difference in

:04:15.:04:17.

state pension age, women have an average received considerably more

:04:18.:04:21.

state pension over their lifetimes than men, not only was equalisation

:04:22.:04:26.

necessary to meet EU obligations but it provides the foundation for a

:04:27.:04:31.

fairer state pension. I apologise about interventions, those who have

:04:32.:04:35.

debated in Westminster Hall know I will always try to answer as many

:04:36.:04:37.

interventions but we do not have time today. The foundations for a

:04:38.:04:42.

fairer state pension which treats men and women equally is something

:04:43.:04:46.

we can all agree on the cross both sides. The changes to state pension

:04:47.:04:51.

age were fully considered when the 2011 act was passed. The Government

:04:52.:04:55.

listen to concerns at the time and adopted a concession worth over ?1

:04:56.:04:59.

billion, benefiting over quarter of the million women. 81% of women

:05:00.:05:03.

affected will experience a delay of 12 months or less, compared to the

:05:04.:05:08.

previously legislated timetable. The Government is committed to helping

:05:09.:05:12.

all the workers stay in the labour market and has extended the right to

:05:13.:05:16.

flexible working to all employees to help achieve this, and we are seeing

:05:17.:05:20.

record numbers of women in employment, 1 million more since

:05:21.:05:24.

2010. With the introduction of the national minimum wage, over two

:05:25.:05:27.

thirds of those benefiting will be women, which we can be proud of. For

:05:28.:05:32.

those having difficulties, the Government provides the same support

:05:33.:05:37.

for women as men of the same age, in work, out of work and disability

:05:38.:05:42.

benefits. I appreciate the comments made about government

:05:43.:05:45.

communications. My honourable friend ball Weaver Vale made great play of

:05:46.:05:49.

this. All governments of all political colours have wrestled with

:05:50.:05:53.

the best way of communicating. DWP Road direct it all the individuals

:05:54.:05:59.

affected by the 2011 act using the address details recorded by HMRC at

:06:00.:06:03.

the time. More than 5 million letters were sent. Service has been

:06:04.:06:08.

available for individuals to request a pension estimates, it is providing

:06:09.:06:11.

individuals with their state pension age and has been since 1995. These

:06:12.:06:16.

lessons are beings we have taken on board with the autumn and Roman

:06:17.:06:19.

scheme which we are seeing being very successful.

:06:20.:06:22.

We must review this. Those reaching pension age will receive a new state

:06:23.:06:32.

pension, reformed system which particularly benefits women who

:06:33.:06:36.

would have had poor outcomes under the current system. 3 million women

:06:37.:06:41.

stand to gain an average ?11 per week as a result of these changes. I

:06:42.:06:45.

would like to close by reminding the house of the reasons for the reform,

:06:46.:06:49.

for a state pension system to function effectively it has to be

:06:50.:06:52.

fair, affordable and sustainable. These changes make an important

:06:53.:06:57.

contribution to achieving these aims. The question is as on the

:06:58.:07:07.

order paper. As many of the opinions say "aye".

:07:08.:07:59.

The question is as on the order opinion, as many of the opinions say

:08:00.:08:07.

"aye". Order, order. The ayes to the right,

:08:08.:20:38.

265, the noes to the left, 289. The ayes to the right, 265, the noes

:20:39.:20:47.

to the left, 289. The noes have that, the noes have it. Unlock. We

:20:48.:20:56.

now come to the deferred division results, so it is order, order, I

:20:57.:21:03.

have to are now announced the result of the deferred decisions in respect

:21:04.:21:07.

of relating to road traffic. The ayes the 299, the noes 226, the ayes

:21:08.:21:14.

have it, the ayes have it. In respect of the question relating to

:21:15.:21:19.

estimates, the ayes were 301, the noes 60, so the ayes have it, ayes

:21:20.:21:27.

have it. We now come to the second opposition Day motion relating to

:21:28.:21:31.

the police funding, crime and community safety. I called the

:21:32.:21:38.

Shadow Secretary of State for Health Police, Andy Burnham. Thank you. I

:21:39.:21:42.

beg to move the motion standing in my name and those of my right

:21:43.:21:48.

honourable friends. We have called this debate for one simple reason,

:21:49.:21:53.

public has not been told the truth, either about police funding or crime

:21:54.:21:58.

figures. With the second is police and crime commission elections just

:21:59.:22:03.

weeks away people need the facts. So this evening we set the record

:22:04.:22:09.

straight. A matter of weeks ago, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood at

:22:10.:22:12.

that dispatch box and made this explicitly clear promise to the

:22:13.:22:19.

police and public. There will be real terms protection for police

:22:20.:22:25.

funding. The police protect us, we are going to protect the police. I

:22:26.:22:29.

am sure members opposite remember it, they waved their order papers.

:22:30.:22:34.

It could not have been clearer, real terms protection. They were not off

:22:35.:22:39.

the cup remarks or a slip of the term, it was the centrepiece

:22:40.:22:41.

announcement of the autumn spending review statement made with the Home

:22:42.:22:45.

Secretary and the Prime Minister at his side, the traditional rabbit out

:22:46.:22:49.

of the hat that we have come to expect on such occasions, designed

:22:50.:22:53.

to produce mass weighting of order papers. Madam Deputy Speaker, there

:22:54.:22:59.

was once a time when if the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a

:23:00.:23:05.

statement of that kind in that way to this house, it would have meant

:23:06.:23:10.

something more than just a grab for the next date peers headlines.

:23:11.:23:16.

People could trust it to be true, because it had been said by a

:23:17.:23:19.

Chancellor of the Exchequer at the dispatch box in the House of

:23:20.:23:25.

Commons. But it seems we live in different times. Ministers these

:23:26.:23:29.

days, from the Prime Minister downwards, are decidedly less

:23:30.:23:32.

attentive than they used to be to the voracity of what they say at

:23:33.:23:38.

that dispatch box. I think we should worry, all of us, every member of

:23:39.:23:43.

this house, because, in the end, it goes to the heart of trust in this

:23:44.:23:49.

place and what we all do. Surely, of all public services, the police

:23:50.:23:52.

should be able to trust the word of ministers of the Crown when

:23:53.:23:57.

commitments are given here. Wouldn't it be a sign of real disrespects to

:23:58.:24:04.

people who put themselves in harm way on our behalf day in, day out,

:24:05.:24:09.

if the Chancellor was writing checks that he knew would not be able to

:24:10.:24:13.

cash. You would think so? But in today's politics, ministers think

:24:14.:24:18.

they can say what they like and get away with it. This evening I will

:24:19.:24:22.

present to the House new analysis showing that the Chancellor has

:24:23.:24:26.

broken his promise to the police and the public. He has failed to provide

:24:27.:24:33.

real terms protection for police budgets in 2016/ 17. In fact, he is

:24:34.:24:41.

about to cut police budgets yet again, for the sixth year in a row,

:24:42.:24:46.

for the six years that he has been Chancellor and the six years that

:24:47.:24:50.

she has been Home Secretary, we have had six years of cuts to the police.

:24:51.:24:58.

What a record! And to think that they used to call themselves the

:24:59.:25:03.

party of law and order. The question for this house tonight is this, are

:25:04.:25:08.

we prepared as they House of Commons to let them think that they can make

:25:09.:25:14.

promises to this house and break them within days of making them, or

:25:15.:25:19.

are we going to do something about it, to hold them to account and make

:25:20.:25:24.

them on the word that they gave to local police forces. I give way to

:25:25.:25:31.

my honourable friend. If you return to the 3rd of February 2010, you

:25:32.:25:36.

will find their way to thousand more police officers under the Labour

:25:37.:25:39.

government then, but the increase of that budget was 2.7% of the

:25:40.:25:43.

Conservatives thought that was not enough at that time. I was just

:25:44.:25:50.

coming on to that, Madam Deputy Speaker. The cuts we are now facing

:25:51.:25:56.

come on top, as he has said, of the loss of 18,000 police officers in

:25:57.:26:00.

the last Parliament, 12,000 of them front-line officers, thousands of

:26:01.:26:07.

PCSOs have also lost their jobs, civilian staff. We have begun to see

:26:08.:26:11.

the break-up of neighbourhood policing, which was a great

:26:12.:26:15.

achievement of the last Labour Government, it brought police out of

:26:16.:26:20.

their stations and cars, back into communities, restoring trust and

:26:21.:26:25.

bringing down crime. Labour should be proud of that record. I am

:26:26.:26:31.

grateful to him for giving way. Is he aware that commitments were made

:26:32.:26:35.

that the sale of police stations and the buildings would help ensure

:26:36.:26:39.

there were additional police on the front line? We have lost St John's

:26:40.:26:43.

Wood, Harrow Road, Paddington Green has been sold and we are still

:26:44.:26:48.

nearly 30% down on police numbers as to where we were in 2011.

:26:49.:26:54.

The same story is repeated all over the country. I would ask my

:26:55.:26:58.

honourable friends to think about the cuts to other services alongside

:26:59.:27:03.

the police, two councils, mental health, social care, disability

:27:04.:27:08.

benefits, Ambulance Services, the Fire Services. All of those pile

:27:09.:27:14.

extra pressure on an overstretched police force, that is what we are

:27:15.:27:19.

seeing. These cuts planned now come at a time when this country faces

:27:20.:27:23.

multiple challenges on many fronts, when the threat level has never been

:27:24.:27:30.

higher. Something has to give. I give way.

:27:31.:27:34.

I thank him for giving way. Does he agree there is a stark contrast with

:27:35.:27:39.

the approach the Welsh Labour government has taken in Wales, with

:27:40.:27:44.

funding for thousands of new PCSOs making up for the shortfall they had

:27:45.:27:48.

seen elsewhere? Overlays people will hear what my

:27:49.:27:51.

honourable friend has just said and make their own judgment. Who protect

:27:52.:27:54.

community safety and stands at for the police? When they come to vote,

:27:55.:28:01.

they will know that Labour in Government, when it runs councils,

:28:02.:28:06.

when we have laboured PCCs, they protect front-line policing,

:28:07.:28:10.

neighbourhood policing and improve community safety, he made that point

:28:11.:28:14.

very well. The question we had to ask the Home Secretary is how many

:28:15.:28:19.

more consecutive years of cuts can the police force take before public

:28:20.:28:25.

safety is seriously compromised? England and Wales already have far

:28:26.:28:32.

fewer police officers per head compared to our international

:28:33.:28:35.

counterparts. If the ratio drops even lower there are real fears that

:28:36.:28:41.

if a Paris style attack, God forbid, were to happen here, importantly, to

:28:42.:28:48.

happen outside of London, there would simply not be the ability to

:28:49.:28:52.

surge enough police officers onto the streets quickly enough,

:28:53.:28:57.

specifically firearms and specialists units, to protect the

:28:58.:29:02.

public. I give way. I understand he is giving a bit of

:29:03.:29:06.

welly as part of his rehabilitation, but I am confused. I am confused by

:29:07.:29:15.

two things. The first, as yet I have not heard him acknowledge that over

:29:16.:29:19.

the last seven years crime has continued to fall quite

:29:20.:29:25.

significantly. Secondly, I haven't heard him refer to his own

:29:26.:29:31.

recommendation of 10% cuts in police funding, which were made not six

:29:32.:29:35.

months ago. I wonder if he would enlighten the house on those issues?

:29:36.:29:43.

I am doing fine, thanks, and I hope he can see that I will be standing

:29:44.:29:48.

up for the police force even if he isn't. What I would say to him on

:29:49.:29:58.

both the points that he raises, I will come onto crime. I don't think

:29:59.:30:02.

his Government is telling the correct story about what are doing,

:30:03.:30:05.

they are not providing real terms protection, they are cutting the

:30:06.:30:09.

police. The two standard but dispatch box and is a crime is

:30:10.:30:13.

falling, the police minister said it can the a few days ago, they fail to

:30:14.:30:17.

point out that those crime figures do not include online crime, they

:30:18.:30:22.

are about to come into the crime statistics for the first time. In

:30:23.:30:26.

the last six years, crime has changed and moved online. Those

:30:27.:30:31.

figures have not been counted. I would not be so complacent if I were

:30:32.:30:36.

him. He mentions what was said in the Autumn Statement about what I

:30:37.:30:39.

was meant to have said. There is far too much spin coming out of that

:30:40.:30:43.

dispatch box over there. Look at what I actually said, I am about to

:30:44.:30:49.

come straight onto that. Madam Deputy Speaker, in a moment. I just

:30:50.:30:56.

talked about the specialist and firearms units needed to protect the

:30:57.:30:59.

public, but neighbourhood policing is crucial to collect the

:31:00.:31:05.

intelligence to combat the terror threat. My worry is if the

:31:06.:31:08.

Government proceeds in this parliament with year-on-year cuts,

:31:09.:31:11.

they will break up the neighbourhood teams. Let me take the House through

:31:12.:31:17.

in detail. Analysis by the House of Commons library of next year's

:31:18.:31:23.

police grant settlement of individual forces shows they will

:31:24.:31:27.

not be protected in real terms. In fact, they will not even be cash

:31:28.:31:35.

protected. In 2015/16 the overall allocation to individual forces,

:31:36.:31:40.

excluding special payments to London, was ?7,452,000,000. In

:31:41.:31:52.

2016/7 it will be ?7,421,000,000, a ?30 million cash reduction or ?160

:31:53.:31:59.

million in real terms. I give way. I am very grateful. Very rightly, a

:32:00.:32:04.

few moments ago he said that the level of the threat is severe and we

:32:05.:32:07.

are all aware of that will stop could I make the same invitation to

:32:08.:32:11.

him that I issued to his front bench colleague in the previous policing

:32:12.:32:15.

debate, he mentioned the importance of armed police officers. The Leader

:32:16.:32:18.

of the Opposition has made very clear that even these on police

:32:19.:32:21.

officers around, they will not be allowed to use them, in his vision

:32:22.:32:28.

of policing. Will the Shadow Home Secretary at Met that that is a

:32:29.:32:32.

dereliction of duty, would he take the opportunity of speaking from the

:32:33.:32:36.

dispatch box to clarify the opposition's position?

:32:37.:32:40.

The Leader of the Opposition said that was simply not the case, there

:32:41.:32:44.

is no change whatsoever to long-established policy when it

:32:45.:32:46.

comes to police keeping the public safe. I will give way.

:32:47.:32:51.

I wonder if he would agree that in addition to the cuts the 4.6% police

:32:52.:32:58.

precept rise in the West Midlands, apparently negotiated by the

:32:59.:33:02.

honourable members four Solihull and Dudley South, amounts to nothing

:33:03.:33:06.

more than local law paying more pounds for less peace? -- local

:33:07.:33:14.

people taking. They are making the local people in the West Midlands

:33:15.:33:17.

and Greater Manchester pick up the bill, but to get less in terms of

:33:18.:33:20.

police on their streets. We know, don't we, they are very good at

:33:21.:33:25.

cutting urban areas like Greater Manchester and the West Midlands and

:33:26.:33:28.

taking money elsewhere, that is the reality stop our constituents will

:33:29.:33:33.

pay more for less, the Chancellor and Home Secretary have broken their

:33:34.:33:39.

police promise to our constituents. I thank my honourable friend for

:33:40.:33:44.

giving way. In my constituency in Brent Central, since 2010 we have

:33:45.:33:50.

lost 108 police officers and 104 PCSOs. The only increase is in the

:33:51.:33:55.

voluntary special constables, that is 98. The Government is trying to

:33:56.:34:00.

police by volunteers, not by police officers.

:34:01.:34:05.

I will come onto that. The bill we will debate in a week or so is all

:34:06.:34:10.

about a part-time police force, a part-time police force to deal with

:34:11.:34:13.

the growing threat faced from online crime and fraud, from the terror

:34:14.:34:19.

threat, it is not an answer to the challenges of the future. I will

:34:20.:34:24.

come onto that before I finish. I will make a little more progress,

:34:25.:34:28.

then give way. Let's get the facts on the record,

:34:29.:34:33.

36 out of 43 police forces in England and Wales have received

:34:34.:34:36.

their grant allocations from the Home Office, and they show a cut in

:34:37.:34:42.

cash terms. How does that deliver the Chancellor's pledge of real

:34:43.:34:47.

terms protection? Wireless, all police forces in England are facing

:34:48.:34:54.

real terms cut steer. -- worse, all police forces. If the same level of

:34:55.:34:58.

cuts are sustained of the spending period, as we suspect, that will

:34:59.:35:03.

result in all the role cuts of between 9% and 10%.

:35:04.:35:07.

I am coming to the point, right into the spending review, police have

:35:08.:35:13.

been told to expect cuts of over 20%.

:35:14.:35:15.

If you speak to senior police officers they were still expecting

:35:16.:35:21.

cuts of over 20% the day before the spending review. The honourable

:35:22.:35:24.

gentlemen nods because he knows I am right. It was stained pressure from

:35:25.:35:29.

these benchers that forced a rethink from the Government. After the Paris

:35:30.:35:37.

attacks, I will give way to the Home Secretary in one moment, the whole

:35:38.:35:40.

question of police funding had to be looked at in a new light. I wrote to

:35:41.:35:48.

the Home Secretary after the Paris attacks and said, while, of course,

:35:49.:35:50.

efficiencies could be made, anything over 5% cut in real terms over the

:35:51.:35:55.

course of this Parliament would be dangerous. That was completely

:35:56.:36:00.

misrepresented by the Chancellor, I am pleased to correct the record.

:36:01.:36:04.

I'm grateful for giving way. In response to my honourable friend who

:36:05.:36:12.

was a distinguished deputy mayor for policing here in London, he said

:36:13.:36:16.

there was far too much spin from this side of the house when my

:36:17.:36:20.

honourable friend made reference to this 10% figure. It actually came

:36:21.:36:24.

from a Labour Party press release where the Right Honourable gentleman

:36:25.:36:29.

said "Of course savings can be found, the police say five to 10%

:36:30.:36:33.

over the parliament is just about doable" so he accepted 10%, why is

:36:34.:36:38.

he now so worried about cuts in funding? What I said when that

:36:39.:36:45.

presence was issued was up to 5% would be doable, and I have said

:36:46.:36:52.

this consistently so if she would just listen... Up to 5% would be

:36:53.:36:58.

doable and we stand by that. Up to 10% would be difficult. Over 10%

:36:59.:37:02.

would be dangerous. She was threatening to cut the police by

:37:03.:37:08.

over 20%. So let's get the facts straight here. And she will recall

:37:09.:37:13.

because she asked Cobra to review police funding in the light of the

:37:14.:37:21.

Paris attacks, we consulted the police in the light of the Paris

:37:22.:37:25.

attacks, we listened to what they had to say as she would have been

:37:26.:37:28.

listening to what they have to say, they said over 5% would be difficult

:37:29.:37:33.

if not dangerous and that is what I put in a letter to her before the

:37:34.:37:39.

Autumn Statement. So let's have it right in here. So the public are not

:37:40.:37:43.

misinformed and there is no spin from that dispatch box. So in his

:37:44.:37:50.

desperation to play politics in the Autumn Statement the Chancellor

:37:51.:37:54.

tried to misrepresent my position but he outdid himself. He did not

:37:55.:37:58.

just misrepresent my position, he misrepresented the government's

:37:59.:38:04.

position, 10% cut as budget protection, we now know it is

:38:05.:38:08.

nothing of the sort. Their defence will rest on the claim that they

:38:09.:38:11.

gave councils extra freedom to increase the police precept to make

:38:12.:38:16.

up the shortfall. But as I will now show that does not hold water. For

:38:17.:38:21.

the guaranteed to be given in this house at the Chancellor did come he

:38:22.:38:24.

would have needed firm agreements from local councils and PCCs that

:38:25.:38:27.

they would raise the extra cash locally. He did not have those

:38:28.:38:32.

agreements, not even from Conservative PCCs. Devon, Cornwall

:38:33.:38:38.

and Cambridge are forces will not be raising their precepts by the full

:38:39.:38:42.

amount, and Hertfordshire are shown to have lowered there. The Home

:38:43.:38:47.

Secretary says it is their decision. Can I tell her again? She promised

:38:48.:38:51.

real terms protection for police budgets. She is not delivering real

:38:52.:38:55.

terms protection for police budgets. She has broken her promise to the

:38:56.:39:00.

police. And I'm afraid she can't just shrug that fact. The

:39:01.:39:07.

Conservative PCC for Devon and Cornwall says this, on the

:39:08.:39:09.

applications for his force of the spending review" while I completely

:39:10.:39:14.

welcome the government's changed position on police funding it

:39:15.:39:17.

remains a fact, central government funding to Devon and Cornwall police

:39:18.:39:24.

in 2020 is estimated to be 90% less in cash terms, real terms 32% less

:39:25.:39:28.

than it was when I commenced office in November 2000 and 12. " 32% down

:39:29.:39:36.

in real terms. 43 officers going next year, 28 police staff going,

:39:37.:39:41.

too. It's not on, Madam Deputy Speaker, and they can't just shrug

:39:42.:39:45.

this off. The next out they will no doubt when to make is that those

:39:46.:39:48.

authorities who have used the precept freedoms will have been able

:39:49.:39:51.

to protect budgets but that is not true either. Let me quote from the

:39:52.:39:58.

Hampshire independent PCC Simon Hayes "The medium-term financial

:39:59.:40:01.

strategy shows an estimated budget shortfall of ?6 million by 2020

:40:02.:40:08.

assuming a 1.99% council tax precept increase. So he can't make up the

:40:09.:40:14.

shortfall from his precept. Let me apply the same test to the Home

:40:15.:40:17.

Secretary's police force and my own. Next year Thames Valley Police will

:40:18.:40:21.

see a real terms cut in central government funding of ?5 million.

:40:22.:40:25.

The income raised by full use of the precept does not cover this

:40:26.:40:32.

shortfall. And in fact forces like Thames Valley are also having to

:40:33.:40:35.

contend with other cost burdens loaded onto them by the Chancellor,

:40:36.:40:40.

including the apprenticeship level and the extra National Insurance

:40:41.:40:46.

contributions. In their case amounting to over ?6 million, money

:40:47.:40:49.

out of front line policing. What is the net effect of this in her police

:40:50.:40:56.

force area? You should listen to this. 95 officers going next year.

:40:57.:41:03.

51 police community support officers, 161 staff. There you have

:41:04.:41:06.

it, the Home Secretary has broken her own police pledge to her

:41:07.:41:13.

constituents. Quick look at my own force, Greater Manchester Police.

:41:14.:41:17.

According to figures from the library, central government funding

:41:18.:41:19.

down by ?8 million in real terms next year. They have also made full

:41:20.:41:24.

use of the freedoms from the precept, but it will not make up the

:41:25.:41:30.

shortfall. As my honourable friend said before, they will be paying

:41:31.:41:36.

more for less. As Tony Lloyd said," contrary to the Chancellor's

:41:37.:41:42.

rhetoric, this is a cut". I give way. He is making a powerful speech,

:41:43.:41:46.

very much highlighting the differential impact that the impact

:41:47.:41:50.

across the board has. I want to give the example of Northumbria Police,

:41:51.:41:55.

just 12% of Northumbria Police's revenue comes from the local tax

:41:56.:41:59.

precept which is far below the national average of 25%. Therefore

:42:00.:42:03.

the ability to make up for the shortfall is hampered by that and

:42:04.:42:06.

clearly Northumbria is the worst hit of all forces with local residents

:42:07.:42:13.

paying more for less. Absolutely right, Madam Deputy Speaker. Less

:42:14.:42:19.

ability to raise money so they cannot make up the cuts that the

:42:20.:42:24.

government is giving to them. It could be about to get even worse I

:42:25.:42:27.

am sorry to tell her because the Guardian reported yesterday that the

:42:28.:42:31.

Home Secretary is about to bring forward a new police funding formula

:42:32.:42:34.

after the mess made of it by the police Minister, who will divert

:42:35.:42:38.

funding away from urban forces towards rural forces. She's shaking

:42:39.:42:45.

her head, I was glad she would, because please tell me this is not

:42:46.:42:51.

true. We recently had a situation where ?300 million was miraculously

:42:52.:42:53.

made available for local government in England at the last minute. But

:42:54.:42:57.

surprise surprise not a penny, barely a penny went to any council

:42:58.:43:01.

are presented on this side of the house. It all went to councils

:43:02.:43:05.

represented on the other side of the house. If we have a police funding

:43:06.:43:10.

formula that does the saying it would add insult to injury and make

:43:11.:43:16.

a complete and utter mockery of the government's already dubious

:43:17.:43:20.

commitment to creating a northern powerhouse. I have listened

:43:21.:43:27.

carefully for 22 minutes now, his entire assessment is based on the

:43:28.:43:31.

amount of money the government has Kevin. There has been no mention of

:43:32.:43:34.

smarter policing, better procurement, better use of

:43:35.:43:39.

technology. An example from his own side yesterday, a former member of

:43:40.:43:43.

this house and now the Police Commissioner for Merseyside has

:43:44.:43:49.

managed to halve the budget for her office and all that money has gone

:43:50.:43:53.

into front line policing. There is more to policing than just the

:43:54.:43:56.

amount of money they get from Central office. I couldn't have put

:43:57.:44:02.

it better myself, vote for a Labour PCC. Labour PCCs will work cleverly

:44:03.:44:07.

to protect front line policing, they will drive innovation, they will

:44:08.:44:11.

drive reform. Protect your police by voting Labour in May, thank you very

:44:12.:44:15.

much to the honourable gentleman for making my point is probably better

:44:16.:44:18.

than I could have done myself. I give way. I am grateful. Just on the

:44:19.:44:24.

point of additional sources of funding for policing to plug some of

:44:25.:44:28.

the gaps he has talked about, as he knows those productions are over

:44:29.:44:32.

five years, and in that period of time some PCC 's may take control of

:44:33.:44:36.

the far authorities. Does he believe it would be right or wrong for PCCs

:44:37.:44:42.

to use fire budgets to plug the gap? I think it would be wrong, and I am

:44:43.:44:47.

very worried about the proposal to put fire under the control of the

:44:48.:44:50.

BCC, because they will be the poor relation. We have a situation where

:44:51.:44:55.

thousands of firefighters, fire pumps, fire stations are at risk

:44:56.:44:57.

from the local government settlement. And I do commit to him

:44:58.:45:02.

and members opposite, if you look at the cuts to police and also consider

:45:03.:45:06.

cuts to the Fire Service, we all have to ask ourselves the question.

:45:07.:45:10.

Is there a adequate emergency cover in all parts of the country? I

:45:11.:45:14.

believe we are getting to the point where some people say that is no

:45:15.:45:18.

longer the case. And I think we do need to look at those two things

:45:19.:45:22.

together. If you put two underfunded services together it does not

:45:23.:45:26.

necessarily create a financially safe service. I am conscious of the

:45:27.:45:32.

time. The government's alibi for its police cut so far has been that it

:45:33.:45:36.

is OK to cut the police, as the former Deputy Commissioner... Member

:45:37.:45:44.

responsible for policing said, it's OK to cut police because crime is

:45:45.:45:47.

falling, that was basically the argument he just made. What is it

:45:48.:45:53.

true? The latest recorded crime statistics in January showed large

:45:54.:45:56.

increases in violent crime, knife crime, hate crime, sexual offences.

:45:57.:46:00.

As ever ministers will say look at the British crime survey but as I've

:46:01.:46:05.

said, crime has changed. It has migrated online. So yes, you might

:46:06.:46:11.

see a downward trend in the traditional volume crime, burglary,

:46:12.:46:15.

theft, you might see that in the British crime survey, but when you

:46:16.:46:18.

ask the British public, have you been the victim of online crime they

:46:19.:46:23.

will probably say yes, I have been. And I think if those figures are not

:46:24.:46:26.

included in the British crime survey, no wonder we are not having

:46:27.:46:32.

an accurate picture of crime. I will give way one final time to the

:46:33.:46:35.

honourable gentleman. I acknowledge the issue he is raising but would he

:46:36.:46:41.

accept that you cannot patrol to prevent online crime, and that the

:46:42.:46:44.

solution to online crime is not about throwing bodies at it but

:46:45.:46:46.

actually about throwing technology at it, and that can be done either

:46:47.:46:51.

relatively cheaply or much more efficiently? I tell you what you

:46:52.:46:56.

don't do is throw volunteers at it, which is the Home Secretary's

:46:57.:46:59.

proposal. I am going to come onto that, and I will explain. It is

:47:00.:47:05.

surely both technology and people. You need sophisticated teams to deal

:47:06.:47:09.

with it. I think it's fair to say most police forces do not have that

:47:10.:47:12.

capability at the moment, and they will not get that capability by

:47:13.:47:16.

cutting them, by cutting the numbers, by cutting their budgets.

:47:17.:47:22.

We need a sophisticated response. I will give way. I am very grateful to

:47:23.:47:26.

my right honourable friend. The honourable gentleman opposite is

:47:27.:47:32.

trying to suggest there is no link with the reduction in support and

:47:33.:47:38.

funding for police services. In greater Manchester ?8,500,000 has

:47:39.:47:42.

been cut, 1600 staff have been cut, and we know that there is an

:47:43.:47:46.

increase in crime. In my own constituency burglaries have doubled

:47:47.:47:49.

year-on-year. Isn't this the effect of what this government is doing? It

:47:50.:47:57.

is. From what they inherited. And how on earth can that police force

:47:58.:48:01.

now develop the capability to deal with the threats we face looking to

:48:02.:48:07.

the future? Crime is falling, therefore we can cut the police...

:48:08.:48:10.

It won't work any more, Madam Deputy Speaker. You are going to have to

:48:11.:48:15.

get a new script. It is unsafe to cut the police, because crime is

:48:16.:48:19.

becoming more complex. I give way to the Home Secretary. I am very

:48:20.:48:25.

grateful for giving way to meet for a second time. He has been making an

:48:26.:48:29.

argument about the importance of accuracy in reporting figures. Can I

:48:30.:48:34.

therefore ask him why it is that in relation to a Labour Party press

:48:35.:48:38.

release issued in January on crime statistics with the heading of

:48:39.:48:45.

"Crying up 6% the biggest increase" the UK Statistics Authority wrote to

:48:46.:48:48.

my honourable friend the member for Braintree and said the following "By

:48:49.:48:53.

focusing on police recorded crime without appropriate caveats and

:48:54.:48:55.

limiting evidence from the more complete and reliable source for

:48:56.:49:00.

most violent crimes in the crime survey for England and Wales, it may

:49:01.:49:05.

have given, in part, a misleading impression". Will he now apologise?

:49:06.:49:10.

I won't. My honourable friend said the figures were accurately

:49:11.:49:14.

reported, and I will not do that. The challenge is today for the Home

:49:15.:49:22.

Secretary to explain her claim that crime is falling. The recorded crime

:49:23.:49:25.

figures do not show that, as we are about to see. The British crime

:49:26.:49:31.

survey, some experts say, is about to show that crime has in fact

:49:32.:49:34.

doubled, and that is the issue she is going to have to explain and work

:49:35.:49:38.

hard in doing so. Tackling online crime is one of the biggest

:49:39.:49:41.

challenges we face but forces don't have the capability. The question is

:49:42.:49:47.

this: how are they going to do this with further cuts? To be fair she

:49:48.:49:51.

has floated one idea, she told the BBC website in January she was

:49:52.:49:55.

planning to recruit a new army of volunteers to help solve

:49:56.:50:00.

cybercrimes. She said volunteers who specialise in accountancy or

:50:01.:50:04.

computing, IT professionals, these people could work alongside police

:50:05.:50:08.

to tackle cyber and financial crime. I say in all honesty, is that really

:50:09.:50:12.

the best the government can come up with to crack the complex crime

:50:13.:50:18.

challenges of the future? To Reza's temps? Dad's Army of retired

:50:19.:50:22.

accountants to take on and defeat the sophisticated international

:50:23.:50:27.

organised crime and fraud networks? The week after next we will debate

:50:28.:50:31.

her bill, and it will put forward powers to be given to volunteers

:50:32.:50:37.

without becoming special constables. Is that really the answer? A

:50:38.:50:42.

part-time police force? It does not equate to a vision for policing in

:50:43.:50:45.

England and Wales that is up to the challenges of the future.

:50:46.:50:47.

"Subtitles will resume on 'Wednesday In Parliament' at 2300."

:50:48.:50:57.

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