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Order, statement the Secretary of State for Scotland, Secretary David | :00:11. | :00:20. | |
Mundell. Mr Speaker, with permission I would like to make a statement | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
about the new fiscal framework for Scotland which was agreed yesterday | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
by the United Kingdom and Scottish governments. And I begin by paying | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
tribute to everyone who has worked so hard to arrive at this point, my | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
right honourable friend the Chief Secretary and Deputy First Minister | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
of Scotland, John Swinney, who have led these negotiations with skill. | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Lord Dunlop, whose contribution has been invaluable and the dedicated | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
teams of officials from Her Majesty's Treasury and the Scottish | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Government who have worked tirelessly on behalf of their | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
respective governments. They can be proud of what has been achieved and | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
the servers they have given. This is an hugely systolic deal and will | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
pave the way for the Scottish parliament to become one of the most | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
accountable the bolt parliaments in the world. We have respected all the | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
principles set out in the cross-party Smith agreement and | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
delivered a deal that is fair for Scotland and therefore the whole | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
United Kingdom. As Lord Smith himself said yesterday evening, when | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
the Smith agreement was passed to the Prime Minister and First | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
Minister, both gave their word they would love it into law. They have | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
met that promise in full. -- deliver it into law. You will be more | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
details in coming days but I would like to set out a future GL and | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
solve the deal. The Scottish Government will retain all of the | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
revenue from the taxes being devolved or assigned including | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
around 12 billion of income tax and 5 billion of VAT. The block grant of | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
the Scottish Government will be adjusted to reflect the devolution | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
and assignment of further taxes and the devolution of further spending | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
responsibilities. We have kept our commitment to retain the Barnett | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
formula extending this to cover the areas of devolved welfare. We will | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
use the governments preferred funding model. Under this model the | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
government holds all specific breasts in relation to devolved | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
taxes just as it does under the Barnett formula. That is fair to | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
Scotland and fair to the rest of the United Kingdom. However, for a | :02:45. | :02:46. | |
transitional period covering the next Scottish Parliament there is an | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
agreement to share the Scottish Pacific risks as these are | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
implemented. The Scottish Government will hold the economic risk while | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
the UK Government will hold the population risks. A Scottish | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
Government will not receive a any less than Barnett funding over the | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
course of the spending review simply due to different collation growth | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
and by the end of 2021 a review of the framework will be formed by an | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
independent report so that we can end Stewart we are continuing to | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
deliver Smith in full with the Scottish Government responsible for | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
the full range of opportunities and risks associated with its new | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
responsibilities. We have also agreed the Scottish Government will | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
have additional new borrowing powers which will ensure the Scottish | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Government can manage its budget effectively and invest up to 3 | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
billion in infrastructure. In line with the recommendation of the Smith | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
agreement we will provide the Scottish Government with ?200 | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
million chair to setup the new powers will control. The government | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
has set up more powers to the Scottish people ensuring they have | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
one of the most our full devolved parliaments in the world, and | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
economic and national security that comes with being part of our United | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
Kingdom. That is what we have agreed and that is what we have delivered | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
in full. Now that we have agreed this story demolition deal the | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
conversation must move on to how these new hours are to be used. The | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
Scottish Government will have extensive powers on tax, welfare and | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
spending. It will have control over income tax and be able to change the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
rates and thresholds. It will be able to create new benefits and of | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
course the permanence of the Scottish Parliament is put the on | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
any doubt. Mr Speaker, the people of Scotland voted for these new powers | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
in the deserve to hear from the parties in Scotland how they will | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
use them. New powers which, if used well, it can grow Scotland's economy | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
and indeed population and bring opportunity and prosperity. Now that | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
we've agreed this fiscal framework I hope and trust that this House and | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
the other place will welcome it while, of course, subjecting it to | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
full scrutiny. I commend this statement to the House. Ian Murray. | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
Thank you Mr Speaker and I would like to thank the Secretary Of State | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
for his statement and coming to the House yesterday to indicate he would | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
be making this statement today. I'd also like to begin by welcoming | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
unequivocally the news that this agreement has been made. I would | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
like to thank both governments, the assistant to the First Minister and | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
the Secretary Of State himself for working so hard to secure this | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
historic deal. The people from both governments who we now do the deal | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
work, my heartfelt thanks go out to them. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
As Lord Smith said, the agreement sees the recommendations of the | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
Smith Commission delivered in full. Importantly, they have now | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
stipulated that the balmy bar met Dutch macro Barnett formula should | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
remain. I know the secretary of state has said details will be | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
published by the end of the week. Can he indicate whether this house | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
will have time to scrutinise it in detail? -- Barnett formula. What | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
this process has highlighted is that future intergovernmental | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
relationships must be improved to make these powers work for Scotland. | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
Lord Smith recommendations that both governments need to work together to | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
get a more productive, robust, that the bowl and transparent | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
relationship and that the joint ministerial committee must be | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
reformed as a matter of urgency, echo in this process. And can he | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
confirmed this will be done. We all know there was a stumbling block. | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
Under a compromise, there will be a five-year transitional period, which | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
will cover a full term of the next Scottish parliament. Towards the | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
end, an independent review recommendation will be published. | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
That will form the basis of a more permanent solution. When he gave | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
evidence, the Secretary of State suggested the period between the | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
review being publish and the transitional period ending could be | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
as little as just 12 weeks. If no agreement is reached, what happens | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
then? In terms of the period itself, it is my understanding that the | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
Scottish fiscal commission will carry out forecasts for the Scottish | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
economy. Can he confirmed that? Under the terms, but they will be | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
fully independent of the Scottish Government, because last week the | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
Scottish finance committee voted against allowing for this very | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
independence. There seems to be some confusion over the block grant | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
adjustments during this period to 2022. The First Minister said it | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
would be done according to the Treasury's favoured method, but to | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
the Scottish Government's favoured outcome. Can he confirmed what it | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
will be? Will it be the tax capacity adjusted levels deduction? I | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
understand that was his latest offer. Further clarity is also | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
needed on the demolition of powers. New powers will be available by | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
2017, he said. The First Minister does not think this is realistic. Is | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
he able to confirm that the new tax powers will be transferred by April | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
2017? Today, the Scottish Government in surpassing the Scottish budget. | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
Ten months from now, we want them to have full control of passenger duty, | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
and tax. We also want to have powers over welfare, which will allow us to | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
design a new social security system for Scotland. Onto the review, I | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
welcome it and that it will be fully independent. I have stated that | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
partial oversights and arbitration should be an established part of | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
relations. Can you tell us how the review body will be chosen and | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
confirm it will be done in the spirit of consensus with the full | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
agreement of both governments? Kenny also tell us what extent the review | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
will implement the decision taken on the long-term decision for Rock | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
grant adjustment. -- can he also tell. Today marks and historic day. | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
The creation of one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
world. The demands have been met. Barnett protected, power was | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
transferred, the Val delivered. Scottish politics will never be the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
same again, thanks to these new powers. We have entered a new and | :10:11. | :10:21. | |
exciting era of devolution. -- the promise was delivered. My party will | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
grab it with both hands. Thank you. I agree with most of what he said. | :10:27. | :10:35. | |
In relation to the opportunity it presents and I think the people of | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
Scotland, what they want, is to see us move on from discussing the | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
process to discussing policies and the difference we can make for them | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
with these extensive new powers. I would indicate that it is my full | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
expectation that the agreement and associated details should be | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
available tomorrow and I very much hope that that will afford them the | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
maximum amount of scrutiny. It will be open to committees of this house | :11:04. | :11:13. | |
to scrutinise the arrangements as they see fit. He makes, and for | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
understandable reasons, reference to intergovernmental relations. I think | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
it's important to look at what Lord Smith said, in relation to how this | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
agreement was arrived at. He said, "It is difficult to imagine a bigger | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
test. Whilst it was obvious they are very tough negotiations, what | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
matters is an agreement has been reached". I accept that the leave. I | :11:43. | :11:51. | |
believe that when the transition period is over, when the independent | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
report has come forward, it will be possible to reach an agreement. And | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
he has asked many times why it has taken so long. Many important | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
agreements are reached at the 11th hour just by the very nature of | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
doing a deal. I am sure that we will be able, on the basis that were set | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
out to ensure that this is the case at the end of the transitional | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
period. The independent review, which he refers to, will indeed be a | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
matter of agreement between the two governments. As he is aware, there | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
are many people in Scotland who perhaps ruled themselves out being | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
independence, who aren't as independent as they seem. I think it | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
is important that there is agreement between the two governments as to | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
how that independent review should go forward. And then ultimately, in | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
relation to the fiscal commission, yes, the agreement with the Scottish | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
Government is that its forecast will be fully independent. And finally, | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
this government will place no impediment in relation to the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
transfer of powers. So obviously we cannot impose the tax powers on the | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
Scottish Government, we wouldn't seek to do so. But I would have | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
hoped that they want to take them on as soon as possible and that is the | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
end to which we will be working. May I congratulate the Right Honourable | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
friend on his apparent success in achieving a settlement. Can he | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
assure the house that this settlement, when it is implemented, | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
not only gives a strong Scottish Government the power that needs to | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
conduct its devolved affairs properly, but also it does nothing | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
whatever to impair the ability of the United Kingdom governments to | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
maintain financial discipline and healthy public finances for the | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
British economy in future, because surely it's an essential condition | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
for the future of growth and prosperity of the English, British, | :14:14. | :14:22. | |
Welsh, Irish, United Kingdom economy? I am very happy to give my | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
right honourable friend the assurance he seeks. The Scottish | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
fiscal framework will be consistent with the UK fiscal framework. I will | :14:32. | :14:42. | |
thank the Secretary of State for his statement and the conversations he | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
had yesterday given the constraints of Parliamentary time and only being | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
able to make a statement. I speak in behalf of all SNP members on | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
welcoming the news fiscal framework. We all look forward to the draft | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
heads of agreement being published for Parliamentary scrutiny. My | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
colleagues and the Scottish Government were clear throughout | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
these negotiations. They said they would not sign a deal which would | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
include a threat to the Scottish budget. They promise of no detriment | :15:18. | :15:27. | |
was made and it is a promised that the SNP has made sure was delivered. | :15:28. | :15:36. | |
When they first began, negotiations, Scotland's budget faced a cut of ?7 | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
million. This week, it was 3 million. Yesterday, it was ?2.5 | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
million. Last night, they got a deal that ensures we will not be a pound | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
or even a penny worse off. New powers were promised and will be | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
delivered. I pay tribute to Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney for | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
standing up for Scotland and being stronger for Scotland. I welcome | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
that the UK Government will guarantee that the outcome of the | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
funding model is delivered in each of the next six years. I understand | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
that a transitional funding arrangement will be reviewed | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
following the UK and Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2020 and | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
2021 respectively. The review will be informed by an independent | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
report, the recommendations presented to both governments by the | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
end of 2021. Let me say this. The Smith report was crystal clear that | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
the fiscal framework had to be agreed by both the UK and the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Scottish governments. The Treasury tried to engineer an agreement that | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
would have allowed them to impose a model of indexation in five years' | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
time. Those are the facts of the matter. That would have seen | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
billions cut to the Scotland budget. May I ask the following questions. | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
Will he confirm that the Treasury no longer has the power to impose a | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
method of indexation? Will he confirm that the review will go | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
ahead without prejudice to the outcome? Will he confirm there is no | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
default indexation option? And that the Scottish Government's agreement | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
is required before any new indexation model can be adopted? I | :17:24. | :17:35. | |
thank the honourable gentleman for the parts he welcomed in relation to | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
the agreement. This has been a negotiation and it is a point that | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
has been arrived at. It's not possible for the Treasury or UK | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
Government to have engineered an agreement. What was needed was the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
agreement of the Scottish Government. That has that has what | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
has been achieved. They have been able to agree on framework that is | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
fair to Scotland and fair to the people of Scotland. I can reassure | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
him that the review will go ahead on an independent basis. Without | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
prejudice or predetermined outcome and it will be concluded by the end | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
of 2020. There will be no imposition of any formula at the end of that | :18:30. | :18:38. | |
period and what happens there will be by way of agreement. As I said, | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
greeting Lord Smith, I believe this process, in some of the most | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
difficult types of negotiation, gives us constants that UK | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
Government and Scottish Government will be able to reach an agreement. | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
Extrapolating recent population trends, what is the additional cost | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
to England and Wales and Northern Ireland of the transitional | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
arrangements on population? There will be no additional cost to | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
England and Wales and Northern Ireland in relation to the powers | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
being transferred. If we were not proceeding with this devolution | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
settlement. Because some is being delivered to the Scottish Government | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
is the same as would be delivered under the Barnett formula -- the | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
amount. The Scottish Government has pledged to halve passenger duty. It | :19:41. | :19:50. | |
leaves Newcastle Airport at risk. Following the statement, when can we | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
expect a decision from the government on support for regional | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
airports, as promised by the Prime Minister, as ongoing uncertainty is | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
very damaging. I note for the honourable lady says. People in | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
Scotland will note that the SNP position used to be to abolish | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
passenger duty completely. So they're somewhat of a change there. | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
But she makes an important point. There is a review and I'm sure these | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
issues will be issues that are considered as the budget process | :20:30. | :20:38. | |
goes ahead. It's not the measure of giving to others what you demand | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
yourself. Why should the Scottish people feel any different? Doesn't | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
the Secretary of State realised there must be some merit in the | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
argument that as long as we maintain the outmoded, outdated and unfair | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
Barnett formula, which is disadvantage for the English, we | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
will stoke unhappiness on both sides of the border. | :21:06. | :21:15. | |
My honourable friend as we well know is staunch in this chamber. When he | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
moved his amendment for complete fiscal freedom my response to that | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
is that I think the people of Scotland would not respond well to | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
having a ?10 billion annual Black hole in their finances and that fool | :21:34. | :21:43. | |
fiscal freedom is not the answer. Further freedom assets set out | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
within the Scottish bill to create a power Parliament is what the people | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
want and what this government is delivering. Washer. Can I | :21:51. | :22:00. | |
congratulate all involved for the principle of no detriment. Can I | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
also thank the chief Secretary for attending and the Deputy First | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
Minister and hope they come again to explain more about the details of | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
this fiscal framework. Can I just ask the Secretary Of State, at the | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
beginning of the process we have heard this figure 7000000000 pounds, | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Devon billion the Treasury intended to cut from the Scottish budget, why | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
was it the Treasury 's intention to cut billions of pounds from the | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Scottish budget and what did he, as the Scottish Secretary for Scotland, | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
a ten to do about it? Mr Speaker Rhino the honourable gentleman does | :22:40. | :22:41. | |
not understand the concept of negotiation where to sides work | :22:42. | :22:50. | |
together to get an agreement. Assertions and sound bites sound | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
good but they do not deliver for the people of Scotland. What delivers is | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
the two governments working together to produce a sustainable agreement. | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
That is what we've done, we got an agreement that underpins the | :23:05. | :23:06. | |
Scotland Bill which means Scotland can get these powers over tax and | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
welfare. People want to move on from the process debate, they want to | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
view the holiday ideas. Maggie Throup. The enquiry into the fiscal | :23:19. | :23:28. | |
framework shows into the new welfare powers devolved to Scotland, has my | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
right honourable friend find any details from the Scottish Government | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
on how the plan to use the new powers? I very much welcome the fact | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
the First Minister and Deputy First Minister have indicated they do land | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
to set out how they intend to use the powers. I think it was very | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
interesting some of the media reports in Scotland in particular | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
that indicate the SMP land to significantly increase the tax | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
burden on those middle-income earners in Scotland but obviously we | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
will have two weight. The detail in the manifesto what will be the cases | :24:08. | :24:16. | |
there will be no excuses now, Mr Speaker, the honourable members | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
opposite can come here to this Parliament and complain about | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
certain welfare changes that they will have the ability within | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
Scotland to set their own welfare arrangements. The Scottish | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
Government have been able to achieve their chosen deduction method | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
through to a skilled strategy what advice will he get to the Welsh | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
government when it comes to negotiating the fiscal framework for | :24:40. | :24:49. | |
Wales? What I am Cleon is that the position in Wales will be as in | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
Scotland, the people of Wales will benefit most when the Welsh | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
government and the United Kingdom government work constructively | :25:00. | :25:08. | |
together for their benefit. Isn't it time, Mr Speaker, that we heard from | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
the Scottish Government detailed plans to devolved our down to the | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
Scottish communities? Revolution should not stop at Holyrood. I | :25:17. | :25:26. | |
absolutely agree with my honourable friend and I am sure he will have | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
read my speech of the 21st of November delivered in Glasgow city | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
Chambers, making exactly the case for devolution within Scotland. | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
Unfortunately, in recent times, Scotland has become one of the most | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
centralised countries in terms of government. I believe the news that | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
if government elected in May should be devolving further powers and the | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
best way to achieve that is to elect more Scottish Conservative MPs under | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
the leadership of Ruth Davidson. Thank you, how great to follow that | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
remark from the Secretary Of State. How does the cost can be a to the | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
government current calculations for implementing a deal agreed at last | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
weeks EU summit for foreign workers in the UK? I welcome the question, | :26:23. | :26:31. | |
it she and I were both Scottish candidates bodies cottage Parliament | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
in the dim and distant past. I am sure the details I am sure the | :26:37. | :26:52. | |
details will stand up to scrutiny. It is an unedifying spectacle when | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
large numbers are quite so visit this. He's even graces that all of | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
them do have a very notable smile on their faces so at least there is | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
humour in the chamber. Mr Alan mac you wish to give us the benefit of | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
your views? This new agreement does show that Scotland's government can | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
work together and the details of how the world use these new powers? I | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
certainly do and I do since yearly hand have on a number of occasions | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
in this chamber, paid particular tribute to the Deputy First Minister | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
of Scotland, John Swinney. He and I have had numerous conversations like | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
this process and twilight times we have been in disagreement, they have | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
always been cordial and civil and that is the basis of the | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
relationship I want to see with the Scottish Government. I think the | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
honourable gentleman is right and what this agreement means is that | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
the Scottish bill can pass through the House and hopefully received | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
consent motion at Holyrood and what that will mean is the will be no | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
hiding place on these issues bodies cottage government. If they want to | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
spend more they will have the tax powers to do so and if they want to | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
have higher welfare they will have the ability to do so. My | :28:16. | :28:24. | |
constituents will welcome this agreement and the fact the Scottish | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
Government was able to persuade the Treasury to abandon its initial | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
position which would have meant seven pounds -- ?7 billion of cuts | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
in the Scottish finance and come to the Smith position that there should | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
be no detriment. At this been the original possession of the secretary | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
we could have got this done before Christmas rather than spend so much | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
time with that. Is now the case beyond doubt that principle of no | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
detriment to the Scottish budget is enshrined both now and in the | :28:57. | :29:06. | |
future? Yes, as is the other point in the Smith commission, it is not | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
just in Scotland but across the UK. I was very clear that Barnett would | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
be retained, that has been done and it is right it has been done. The | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
starting point for public spending in Scotland now is 115% of the UK | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
average. Can the Secretary Of State tell the House in terms of his | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
modelling what that percentage per capita will be at the end of this | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
Parliament? Certainly, since the honourable gentleman asked for | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
complex calculation, I will be happy to write to him in that regard. What | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
I would say and I do respect his strongly held views an allusion to | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
the Barnett formula, the government division is clear, the Barnett | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
formula is being retained. Following yesterday's devastating votes on the | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
Lord amendments for the Welfare Reform Bill, and the Secretary Of | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
State say more on cams of when powers will be transferred to | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
Scotland so that at least in Scotland we can do something to | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
prevent the appalling effects of poverty on children and disabled | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
people? Obviously I do not agree with her perspective in relation to | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
specific policies but she is right the Scottish parliament will have | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
specific and detailed policies in relation to welfare. We have a joint | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
ministerial group on welfare which includes myself and Scottish | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
ministers Alex Neil and Roseanna Cunningham and what we need to do is | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
work through that group in terms of the transfer of specific powers. | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
What we do not want to do is order to be a transfer of power without | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
new arrangements being in place cause obviously goes able in receipt | :30:53. | :31:00. | |
of the benefits have to be our prime concern. We are going to work | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
closely together. An enormous amount of work has been done by officials | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
to date and I am confident once we know the cause we do not fully now, | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
of course, what the Scottish Government proposal la, once we know | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
what the RB will be able to make an effective transition. The Secretary | :31:18. | :31:26. | |
Of State in his reply to my honourable friend the member for | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
Perth and North they are sure seemed to confirm that the Treasury is | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
opening bed in these negotiations, a so-called level deductions approach | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
which would have led to a ?7 billion debt in Scottish spending, the | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
opening bed was merely a negotiating ploy. If that is the case will be | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
Secretary Of State confirm that it was disrespectful for negotiations | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
to start with the position so far from the doubt and will he confirm | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
that will ever happen again? Mr Speaker, what complete and utter | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
nonsense! A deal is done that is good for Scotland, good for the UK | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
and honourable members opposite had to trawl through newspaper reports | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
to find something that they can complain about! This is a good deal | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
for Scotland, it gets Scotland new powers, like stock about how we use | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
those powers or the benefit of Scotland and let the grievance | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
agenda to bed once and for all! I have no desire to sour the tone of | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
consensus on what is and the story date for Scotland. It is a fact and | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
many of my constituents leave that funding for Scotland and parts of | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
the Barnett formula art and fear to the north of England. That is the | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
acknowledged that grievance and how does this new fiscal framework James | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
that? I acknowledge that people have those feelings and a number of | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
people on both sides of this House have raised issues about the Barnett | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
formula. In my view that is their job as representatives of different | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
parts of the United Kingdom. My position is quite clear, the Barnett | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
formula is good for Scotland and this over at is keeping the Barnett | :33:19. | :33:26. | |
formula. And the Secretary Of State name some of the devolved assemblies | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
around the world that will now be less powerful than the Scottish | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
Parliament? I can produce them a list and I will send him that lest | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
because I am not focused on other assemblies around the world. I am | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
focused on the Scottish parliament and making it a powerhouse | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
parliament with the powers that make a difference in Scotland. That is | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
what the state of the debate is. I think his constituents want want to | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
hear about parliaments in South America and other parts of the | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
world, they'll want to hear about what his party intends to do on | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
income tax and wealthier. -- welfare. We have had a particularly | :34:11. | :34:22. | |
mild November, December and January, two G, going forward, let us know | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
when he expects this will to finish its passage in the House of Lords, | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
when he expects it go back to the House of Commons and when he expects | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
it to get consent? In relation to the first two questions I expect | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
that to be Marge and I hope Royal assent will be achievable within | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
March but it may be April but I am also respectful of the Scottish | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
Parliament process and the need for a legislative consent motion. I | :34:52. | :35:00. | |
thank the Secretary Of State for advanced sight of his statement. I | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
note the Secretary makes mention of the UK Government holding population | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
risks. Will he concedes that the limited powers available to the | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
Scottish Government do not allow for population growth and will he now | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
listen to calls for a cottage posts by the work scheme? In relation to | :35:18. | :35:26. | |
the latter I have had the pleasure to appear before the Scottish | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
appears select committee and be grilled on the issue of student work | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
visas. I made very clear that I would look closely at the work the | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
committee has produced and I repeat that undertaking. What I do not do | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
is I do not accept the premise of her question. I believe that | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
properly used the tax and other powers that the Scottish Government | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
have will allow it to grow the Scottish economy, create jobs and | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
grow the population of Scotland. He talks a lot negotiations, but | :35:58. | :36:09. | |
this is a point. When they first considered making cuts, could be | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
Secretary of State, the man in the Cabinet, see what measures he made | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
to protect Scotland? I have been closely involved in these | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
discussions throughout. But they are negotiations. They are not about the | :36:26. | :36:34. | |
Treasury imposing. As Smith himself recognises, they are about the two | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
governments coming together in a difficult circumstance to negotiate | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
about money, which is often the most contentious thing that is the | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
subject of negotiations. What we have demonstrated is that both | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
reach a deal which is good for both. reach a deal which is good for both. | :36:52. | :37:03. | |
Thank you. He has just confirmed that the initial proposal put | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
forward by the Treasury of a ?7 billion cut to Scotland's budget was | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
not an opening negotiation position, but a serious proposal. In the light | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
of that, I would like to ask, does he consider himself Scotland's man | :37:18. | :37:27. | |
in the Cabinet or the Cabinet's man in Scotland? What complete and utter | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
nonsense. This is an investigation. It was conducted by John Swinney. He | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
adopted a completely different tone. Civil and cordial throughout. I | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
respect his objective of getting the best deal for Scotland. That is my | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
objective, too, but we have to get an agreement. And we got one. It is | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
a good one. It is an opportunity to move away from the grievance agenda. | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
I am afraid this afternoon's proceedings leave me in doubt that | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
even with these extensive new powers, the S NP will be able to | :38:04. | :38:13. | |
leave that grievance agenda behind. He has repeatedly criticised the | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
party for failing to set out how they will use the new powers. But | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
barely an hour ago, the Prime Minister floundered badly when asked | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
whether the Scottish Conservatives would reduce the tax rate on high | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
earners. I'm sure he would like to avoid suggestions of hypocrisy and | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
extend his criticism to his boss. I have nothing but admiration for Ruth | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
Davidson. She's the one person in the Scottish Parliament that can | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
stand up to the SNP and hold them at her account. And if people don't | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
want a 1-party state in Scotland, the way to achieve that is by voting | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
Scottish Conservative. The Prime Minister didn't flounder. He told | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
what the tax proposals are and they what the tax proposals are and they | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
certainly won't be the same as the SNP's proposals revealed in the | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
Scottish press today, to hit middle Scottish press today, to hit middle | :39:11. | :39:23. | |
earners hard. Order. Thank you. I would like to raise a matter that | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
was addressed at the adjournment debate on Monday evening. During it, | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
I asked the minister about negotiations that may have taken | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
place ahead of the ship to ship transfer proposition to take place. | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
And I asked specifically if Marine Scotland, representing the Scottish | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
Government, had been consulted. I got a reply, which is not in my | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
hands, which is as follows... Marine Scotland will directly -- were | :39:54. | :40:01. | |
directly consulted. It has not responded. When it was asked whether | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
it tended to respond, the answer was no. I hope that our fries that | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
point. That is a very clear statement. -- that clarifies our | :40:13. | :40:20. | |
point. I therefore checked that situation with the Scottish | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
Government. And I have received the following response... "The Scottish | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
Government is not aware of being directly approached by the UK | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
Government during the consultation on the Cromarty for transfers. We | :40:33. | :40:43. | |
were aware via informal contract. It is safe to say we were not contacted | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
by the MCA or the Scottish Government." It is worrying, because | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
it leaves open the suggestion that the government has been economical | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
with the truth. That is a very serious matter, not least because of | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
the potential threat that there are two those in my community of the | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
ship to ship transfer taking place. The Scottish Government has not been | :41:10. | :41:16. | |
adequately consulted on its responsibilities towards | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
environmental protections. I'll ask your advice on whether it would be | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
appropriate for the minister to correct the record. It is open to | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
any member to voluntarily correct the record. It is not the | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
responsibility of the chair to arbitrate between competing claims | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
as to a sequence of events. Nor is it my responsibility to interpret | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
what the minister might have meant in responding to the honourable | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
gentleman at the time. The honourable gentleman has made his | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
point with fourth and alacrity and we would expect no less of him. If | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
the secretary wishes to respond, he is at liberty to do so. But he is | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
under no obligation. I will have it investigated. He has said he will | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
have the matter investigated. I ought to emphasise that the | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
Secretary of State wasn't the responsible minister answering the | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
debate. I hope that the honourable gentleman is satisfied with his | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
prodigious efforts of the day. We might move on now. Specifically, I | :42:23. | :42:32. | |
know the honourable gentleman will be absolutely delighted that we can | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
now move on to the ten minute rule motion. To be put forward by his | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
honourable friend. And I am sure he is sitting expectantly. With that in | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
mind. Ten minute rule motion. Thank you. I asked leave to be given to | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
bring a bill to require distance sellers to provide purchasers with | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
the lowest cut available for delivery cost option. To establish | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
administrative penalties were benders advertise statements such as | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
free delivery, but subsequently impose charges. I am grateful for | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
the opportunity to bring in the consumer protection distance selling | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
delivery charges bill. But it is an issue that my constituents deal with | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
on a daily basis. And they tell me about it regularly. I know the | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
secretary is aware of our concerns. There is a consumer appetite for | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
improved online shopping throughout our communities. But there are areas | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
that have been badly served by retailers and carriers. The online | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
shopping market is a growing market and is particularly important to | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
rural communities. And paying more in the Highlands and Islands is | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
unfair. We know the cost of delivery will always be big, but this is not | :43:57. | :44:05. | |
what it is about. This is about people feeling excluded, because of | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
a costly range of delivery options. Even people living in cities like | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
Inverness are being charged for delivery of goods. My constituent | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
was asked to pay ?90 for the delivery of a mobile phone. Current | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
legislation is not working. I am very grateful for the sport of | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
honourable members from all of the nations of the UK who have | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
experienced similar issues. In Northern Ireland, 43% of consumers | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
have accounted a delivery surcharge. And it is estimated that some | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
shoppers pay on top of standard UK delivery costs. For the Highlands | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
and Islands, 53% of retailers apply a delivery surcharge. Unfairness is | :44:53. | :45:01. | |
not only wrong, it is bad for business. Resentful customers are | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
created when seven in ten consumers reluctantly play a surcharge for | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
delivery for that item. And that they will look elsewhere next time. | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
There is those who tell us that these are just market forces at | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
work. But in this connected world, it has already been accepted there | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
is a need for universal services in broadband plan provision -- | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
provision to allow everyone to participate. If all this seems | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
small, it should be remembered that it is this type of industrious that | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
lives longest in the memory and the higher the price and loss of trust | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
to disconnect. Because of their postcode, people are considered to | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
be in the minority and not important. Why should we allow that | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
prejudice? Many are already asked to pay more for fuel and heating and | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
amongst them are often the most vulnerable consumers. And that is | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
why it needs to be our collective responsibility, when talking about | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
the delivery of goods, two first of all deliver the principle of | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
fairness. So let's now shine a light on good retailers and carriers. This | :46:12. | :46:19. | |
bill also calls for the introduction of a mark. Many companies work hard | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
to ensure they provide a good service across our nations. They | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
should be celebrated and recognised. Highlighting their good practices | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
will allow them to access and help those currently being discriminated | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
against. They in turn would benefit from increased business. Really good | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
news for these companies is that those consumers are proven to be | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
exceptionally loyal and will buy again. There is a reason that | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
operators like eBay have introduced a premium seller badge. It makes | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
good business sense. The principles that eBay are seeking to apply are | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
very similar to those I am discussing today. A key part of the | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
rating is based on delivery and shipping costs. Their sellers lose | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
the rating based on -- when they have poor feedback. In this example, | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
there is a consequence for poor behaviour. But the wider distance | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
selling market has no such thing. There are no consequences for bad | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
practice on mis-selling. A kite practice on mis-selling. A kite | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
quality mark will allow consumers to easily identify those traders and | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
carrier who can be trusted. This can be industry led. It will need | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
careful fort. But there are no barriers that cannot be overcome. | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
The consumer rights act of 2015 allowed to make law clearer. But a | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
number of retailers are still unsure of their responsibilities. Greater | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
awareness is needed. This is not an isolated problem. In preparation for | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
this bill, I spoke to consumer boots, trading standards and | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
retailers and others. -- consumer groups. Some research says that they | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
should have an upfront disclosure at an early stage in the transaction | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
process. It is not happening. Seven out of ten consumers do try to seek | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
out this information try to checkout. Recent has showed that | :48:28. | :48:35. | |
some retailers are still not complying fully with new consumer | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
legislation. Benders of delivery companies are very discriminate | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
based on location. There needs to be a clear understanding of the rights | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
of consumers and the regions they would have the such an fairness or | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
false advertising. Existing laws are often unenforced and too cumbersome. | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
So opportunities around administrative penalties need to be | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
considered. Online retailers do have the right to choose where they | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
surprised they're good or services. But consumers should also have the | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
right before they get the last page of the transaction. -- their goods. | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
It should include prominent and transparent the contract terms. | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
Including the total price and services and all delivery charges. | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
Not misleading terms. Those people who are told they can take advantage | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
of free delivery within the UK, when that is untrue is an example. In my | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
constituency, there are many mysteries. Like the location of the | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
Loch Ness Monster. The biggest mystery has to be why Inverness, one | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
of the fastest-growing cities in Europe, are apparently not in the | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
mainland. At least according to some careers. People are not buying boxes | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
to Brigadoon, they are asking for things to be sent to a modern city. | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
The discrimination test has been failed. But couriers can make the | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
situation worse for retailers by using out of date postcode software. | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
There is and is consistent and variable approach -- and | :50:16. | :50:24. | |
inconsistent. It can lead to confusion and lost revenue for the | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
retailers themselves. There has to be a greater understanding amongst | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
consumers, retailers and careers about their rights and the | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
consequences for bad practice. It's not just me saying this. | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
Organisations like citizens advice Scotland are calling for greater | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
intervention and education. This bill also sets out the need for | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
greater consumer choice. People often do not have those choices. Why | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
are people in the Highlands and Islands paying more than ?15 more | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
for delivery when we have a universal Royal Mail servers? They | :51:02. | :51:02. | |
should have a clear option. On the ability to arrange their own | :51:03. | :51:18. | |
pick-up from the vendor. They should have the right to choose. I know | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
this will mean a change in working practices but barriers can always | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
been overcome which will mean better business. I am sure there are | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
exciting new business opportunities that could be explored in this area | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
including the possible use of delivery Roker 's or working with | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
other companies to maximise potential. In conclusion, in | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
introducing this bill we aim to work with government, business and people | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
to establish and provide not yet another set of promises but another | :51:48. | :51:57. | |
set of solutions. Make sure there is clarity around the expectations set | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
out in current legislation and consider the option of | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
administrative penalties for continued abuse. The choice of | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
delivery, let them decide if they want universal services, they are | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
challenges but let's decide to support those people who find | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
themselves in the election. They are not asking for the unattainable, | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
they do not expect to be treated with and you favour but should not | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
continue to be ignored. They deserve to be delivered to. The opportunity | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
is here with this ilk to take action. The question is that the | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. Politics macro. | :52:39. | :52:51. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Who | :52:52. | :53:05. | |
will bring in the Bill? Others and myself, sir. Mr Drew Hendry. | :53:06. | :53:28. | |
Consumer protection distance selling delivery charges Bill. Second | :53:29. | :53:38. | |
reading what day? Friday the 11th of March 2016. Thank you. We now come | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
to the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition relating to | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
transitional state pension arrangements for women. To move the | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
motion I called the saddle Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Mr | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
Owen Smith. Thank you I am extremely grateful. I wanted to start today's | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
important debate I saying how lucky I have been to always come from a | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
family of strong and hard-working women. Mother and grandmother 's and | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
now my wife and daughter and if the ears one thing I learned from all of | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
them it is never to try to rule the world over their eyes. Never to try | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
and take them from fools because I will guarantee you will always be | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
found out. It is a lesson that the Tories really ought to have learned | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
back in 1991 when they first started whining to equalise the pension age | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
for women with men because that is precisely what has happened. We have | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
been found out. Fine to have field in their duty to inform women | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
properly about the changes planned. Hundreds of thousands of women were | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
left unprepared for a decision that would see the unprepared lose up to | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
?36,000 in tension payments. It compounded the error in 2011 when | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
further delay of ancient age to 66 was rammed through with barely two | :55:15. | :55:23. | |
years notice. Found in the words of their on pensions minister, the | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
current pensions Minister, to have pulled the rug from under 206 | :55:27. | :55:35. | |
million British women. Labour today is going to speak for those 2.6 | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
million women and ask the government what they now plan to do to make | :55:42. | :55:51. | |
amends. Before we get to party political about this it can be said | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
that back in 1995 and individual orders should be given but shortly | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
after Labour came in, where nearly one dozen Labour pension ministers | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
over that time there were still 20 years away, and you not accept that | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
we all have lessons to learn, and individual motors should have been | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
sent out by all governments or at least buy one and he had the | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
opportunity of those years? With respect I did not have an | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
opportunity because I was not he that the time however I think he is | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
right all successive month have a lesson to be learned from this sorry | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
affair however the truth is I intend to spell out in my speeches this was | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
first mooted in 1991 and no substantive efforts were made by the | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
then Tory government between 1995 or indeed 1991 and 1997 when the left | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
office, to offer a proper notice to people. The Labour government | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
thereafter did attempt to do that and I will renew many in my speech | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
exactly how we try to make amends but it was compounded by the current | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
government is my actions in 2011. If anybody has lessons to learn out of | :57:01. | :57:02. | |
visited the Conservative Party have visited the Conservative Party have | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
the greatest responsibility to bear for these changes and have now the | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
duty to make amends for them. I will make progress and then give way. | :57:13. | :57:20. | |
This started back in 1991, that was when the Tory government first | :57:21. | :57:22. | |
consulted on their intention to ship the state pension age for women from | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
60 two 65 Queen it had been since the 1940s. The Chancellor then in | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
the 1993 budget formally stated his intention to make this move and | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
legislated for Ed through 1994 and 1995. The 1995 at stipulated the | :57:43. | :57:51. | |
pension age would rise during 2010 and 2020 which means women born | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
between April 1950 and December 1959 would have two week at a mean one | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
month and five extra years before they could draw their pensions. You | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
would have thought that such a massive change, the biggest change | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
to women's pensions and happy century, would have been | :58:12. | :58:13. | |
communicated with great care and with fanfare but it wasn't. Some of | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
the women concerned were as young as 39 at the time and so it was | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
unlikely they were looking at the ages of the financial papers or, | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
indeed, being much it attention to the scant effort is made by the | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
government to tell them about the changes. I am grateful but will he | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
not accept that in 2004 DWP select committee found that the quarters of | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
women of that age at the time whether we'd the changes of the 1995 | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
act so while I accept you were some changes and mistakes on both sides | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
of the House three quarters of women did know about the changes. I am | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
wheezed to swap stories about what government knew at the time, the | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
question asked in the 2004 survey by the then Labour government concerned | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
that the previous Tory government had not made proper provisions for | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
women was indeed not unfortunately as straightforward as it should have | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
been. Other surveys, 56, found that around 70 two 80% of women involved | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
did not know these changes were taking place. It is no surprise they | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
did not know because the government of the time, the Conservative | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
government, spent little money advertising this. Here where few | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
adverts in newspapers and letters when available to individuals if | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
they requested them and many did not. I will quote one of those | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
letters after I have given way. Thank you for giving way. Can I | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
formed the House I have had constituents right to me to say they | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
have stayed at this same address for the last 30 or 40 years and have | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
received nothing to tell them about the changes? An extremely common | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
experience for MPs in this House because the truth is the letters | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
went out in 1995 by the then Tory government where neither use nor | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
ornament. I have one here sent on the 13th of June 1995. The archive | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
pages here and on not one of them does it mention the pension age is | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
going to rise to 65. On every single page refers to the fact the state | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
pension age for women is actually 60s and on the final page offers | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
this extraordinary position that a formal be sent out inviting you to | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
claim your state retirement pension a few months before you reach 60 but | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
that was in the very month T-bill was going through this House and | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
that government and it is a measure of what desperately were a job they | :00:49. | :00:57. | |
did to inform people. I give way. I thank him for getting me. I have | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
lost number of the people who have contacted me to say they had no idea | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
of the pension changes, they heard about it on the radio or TV | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
unfortunately we are raising this raw file on the government 's behalf | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
but is it not insulting of the government benches to suggest these | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
women are wrong or lying on that date is something wrong with them | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
when ultimately it is the government is my responsibility to communicate | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
these changes? It is wrong and insulting and compounds the | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
fundamental insult that women who, by and large, have smaller pensions | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
because they dealt with lower wages throughout their entire lives while | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
bleeding a burden for the rest of us cannot access their pensions. She is | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
entirely right it is completely insulting to suggest that there was | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
robber notice given because the truth is, it was a botched job. The | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
botched job from start to finish. The reason we now it is the botched | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
job is because the current mentions Minister, the Conservative tensions | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
minister in the House of lords, it says it was. She says clearly many | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
of these women were expecting to receive a pension at age 60 since | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
they were unaware of the changes made in 1995. Dan out of their own | :02:15. | :02:24. | |
minds. I give way. I'm usually helpful to the spokesman. I am one | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
of those women and I have never received a letter, I have never been | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
notified and I think the department might know where I live. I cannot | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
believe for a minute that the Honourable lady is old enough to be | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
one of the women concerned. It tests the credibility of the highs that | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
back you'd be so but I am grateful to her for her intervention. The | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
last Labour government, I will give way to a gentleman. Thank you for | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
giving way. Does he also recognise that the lot of women like Jane | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
manners in my constituency who assumed she would be retiring at 60 | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
and is now disabled as no way to make up for the six years she has | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
lost because of these changes? That is the case for thousands of women | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
across this country which is why this is more than a small campaign. | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
It is a fundamental injustice that must be changed. I give way. Can I | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
thank my honourable friend who is making a very good speech? I find | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
the number of women who are competing in the constituency and I | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
am absolutely convinced of the conservatory that they do not know | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
anything about this due to a lack of notification. We saw at the Prime | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
Minister's Question Time a complete misunderstanding. My honourable | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
friend is entirely right and he will know he was part of the last Labour | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
government, we did try to improve this set of circumstances, we did | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
conduct the survey talked about and there was a worrying low level of | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
understanding. Between 2004 and 2009 several million pounds advertising | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
campaigns and 800,000 personalised letters were sent out by the then | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
Labour government to the affected women such as this one which in | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
stark contrast to the Tory letter I cited earlier on does say on the | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
first page that this person, the addressee, will be affected by the | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
allergy is testified to by so many allergy is testified to by so many | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
of my honourable friends and by the brilliant women of the war speak | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
campaign whose tenacity and truth telling I think we should pay | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
tribute to right across this House today cause they speak for hundreds | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
of thousands of women. They did not know that they were in the firing | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
line. Thank you for giving way. Ford thousand 465 women in my | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
constituency will be affected by this. You are also not agree with me | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
it is an historic inequality in the system which has caused this? Of | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
course it is. There were historic inequalities that existed then and | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
persist now. The gender a gap affects women, they don't have the | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
full stand-by of them because of caring duties and that is why it is | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
be asked to pay a price in their be asked to pay a price in their | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
retirement. I give way. That he also agree with me that we are talking | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
about a generation of women who are doubly disadvantaged, many of whom | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
wear at work before the OP act came into force who had to take low-paid | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
part-time jobs because of lack of childcare and the government is now | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
keeping insult upon injury in disadvantage in once again? More | :05:57. | :06:09. | |
from the constituency of my right honourable friend then anywhere else | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
in this country. A magnificent job by the women. I will quote the | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
current pensions Minister, because she said... "Across the country, I | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
am hearing from women who are enduring that sudden, sickening | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
realisation that their destiny in retirement is not in their own | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
hands. And this is not about fairy tale luxury retirement millers. This | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
is about affording the basics." The government cannot run from it. -- | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
retirement villas. I would like to challenge the figure that was voted | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
from the opposite side. And the member from the front bench may have | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
the figure. The one I saw from the di WP investigation in 2004 was just | :07:03. | :07:12. | |
above 40%. It was not 75%. For such a cataclysmic change, every single | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
one of these women should have had a simple letter on their doormat in | :07:16. | :07:25. | |
1995. -- DWP investigation. She is right. Even if it was 40%, that is | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
40% too many. There were five or six other surveys done in this country | :07:32. | :07:39. | |
which suggests it was 80% of women who were unaware. The reality is | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
that it was far greater. I think the scale of this problem only truly | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
started to dawn on people and the governments when they decided to | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
double down on their calamity with the 2011 pensions act. I will give | :07:54. | :08:03. | |
way. I am very grateful. Of course, he is about to come onto the | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
injustice of the 2011 act. Isn't the real issue here is not just the | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
ladies have been hit twice by an increase in their state pension age, | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
but there was no transitional arrangement put in place? Isn't that | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
why it is absolutely right that we support the Labour motion today to | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
get the government off the fence and provide these ladies with the | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
transition they deserve? This house and the government benches would do | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
well to heed the words of my honourable friend, because he has | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
been the biggest campaigner in this house on their behalf. He speaks the | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
truth, when he says members should back our motion and provides | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
transitional protections for these women. The 2011 act broke not only | :08:57. | :09:06. | |
the promise that the pension age won't rise until 2020. It also broke | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
the promise that no rises would occur without at least ten years | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
notice. It gave those women who suffered the double blow just two | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
years notice. It was a decision that has already been described by the | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
former pensions minister as" an ill informed mistake" he tried to make | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
up for it in office and secured some mitigation for the 300,000 women. | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
The current minister will no doubt mention this in a minute. Telling us | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
it cost 1.1 billion. But I bet he won't remind us his predecessor was | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
looking for 3 billion in order to offer those transitional | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
protections. I suspect he may only say that half of that 1 billion went | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
to men. I support the motion, because I | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
support the women and the transitional arrangements. But I | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
have to say he is making it more difficult for me and colleagues to | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
vote for it by trying to make it such a partisan thing. 13 years of | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
his government did not help the situation. Could I suggest that in | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
the spirit of the motion he could get some more details of what those | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
transitional arrangements should be, so we can start a dialogue, which | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
the government should have started some time ago to see if there is a | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
compromise to help those women who need it? I am sorry if I am bruising | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
his feelings with the nature of my remarks. I am very pleased that he | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
has supported the campaign. I know he has been brave enough to speak in | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
favour of it. And I am positive that a man of his resolve | :10:55. | :11:05. | |
will not be put off by a few words across the dispatch box. And will | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
vote irrespective of what I said. I will come onto precisely the sort of | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
transitional arrangements that the government should undertake. I am | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
grateful. This is the third opportunity we have had to debate | :11:17. | :11:27. | |
this. First of all, back and forth. The government has an opportunity to | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
do the right thing by the women of this country. Why don't we just | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
grasp it with both hands and deliver it for them? Why don't they? Why | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
doesn't the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who occasionally | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
comes to this chamber to answer questions... He's ducked out on the | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
last five and once again he is not here. We ought to sanction him for | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
failing to turn up to work. I think it is a good idea. The truth is the | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
government is offering any further suggestions themselves. As to how | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
they might do what the Secretary of State promised in 2011. He said that | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
they would be transitional arrangements put in place for these | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
women. And he hasn't offered it. The government has offered nothing. In | :12:18. | :12:24. | |
truth, it offers defensive positions only. I hate to be partisan. It | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
really isn't in my nature to be partisan. But I draw attention to | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
the guidance on the women's against state pension and equality with's | :12:35. | :12:43. | |
note. It says quite clearly that the campaign are demanding that all | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
women born before 1951 be given their pension age of 60. It says no | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
one will see any reaction in their income. It claims the rise in state | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
pension age has been widely communicated. And it says that | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
absolutely nothing more can be done. -- any reduction in their income. | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
Again, it is wrong. They have lost income. The income they would have | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
been paid out in the previous arrangements. They were not widely | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
communicated, the changes. And they are not opposed to the equalisation | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
of the state pension. They are petitioning over 155,000 signatures | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
saying so explicitly. They do support it. What they want is what | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
the government promised. Transitional arrangements. Of the | :13:37. | :13:45. | |
4100 women in my constituency, affected by these changes, one of | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
them recently told me "Throughout my life, a number of changes have | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
impacted on me and my friends, such as an equal pay, dismissal for | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
pregnancy and a lack of childcare. Does he agree with me there is still | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
time for the government to correct this injustice and in the interests | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
of being nonpartisan, please do the right thing and put in place | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
transitional measures? She is entirely right. There are other | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
injustices in the workplace and on payday that women have suffered in | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
this country over generations. This is another one that has been heaped | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
upon them. There are different arrangements that could be put in | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
place. I will give way. Thank you. I am grateful. With the honourable | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
gentleman take the opportunity to acknowledge a very serious injustice | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
that has been suffered by the women born in the 50s who had been offered | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
and have accepted retirement packages from their employers which | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
have included a figure assuming they were going to retire at 60? With no | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
surprise, the honourable lady who speaks with great erudition in this | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
house highlights yet another injustice. I say again that the | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
government must recognise this. They must bring forward some suggestions, | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
because there are many ways they could mitigate this problem. There | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
are lots of arrangements that could be put in place. I will list six. | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
Before I do, I will give way. I am grateful. The case he is making now | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
is absolutely right. The point is the government has made a mistake. | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
It isn't too late for them to stand up and put things right and imagery | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
of thousands of women and their husbands by this impact. -- the | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
misery. They could put it right. Bickered and the Minister has five | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
minutes to come up with what he wants to see. -- they could. I'm | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
going to give him six suggestions. First of all, they could decide to | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
delay the pension age increase till 2020. That is the option that the | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
current pensions minister in the house of lords favours. They could | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
cap the maximum state pension increase from the 2011 at at 12 | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
months, as her predecessor advocated. They could keep the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
qualifying age for pension credit on the previous timetable, helping out | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
some of the poorest women in the category. As Labour suggested in | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
2011. They could allow early access for those affected to take a reduced | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
pension at an earlier age during the transition. They could extend the | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
timetable for increasing the overall state pension by 18 months to reach | :16:53. | :17:01. | |
66 by April 20 22. Finally, they could pay a lower state pension for | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
a longer period throughout the pensionable age of the women | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
affected. All of those things would of course have costs, but all of | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
those things are ways in which the government could act. Or the need | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
from the government is not more carping, but the world to get on and | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
do something about it. -- the will. It would be helpful to put 3450 | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
women in my constituency... All six points. And someone has written to | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
me who said that she never received the letter. She only found out from | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
her workplace. She is now unemployed and has been for 20 months. She is | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
looking hard for jobs. But she's worried now whether she will have to | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
work more in order to make up for the lost contribution she has made. | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
She is in a difficult position, no guidance. Why doesn't the government | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
help her? He speaks with passion and knowledge about the 4000 odd women | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
in his constituency. There are thousands of women in his | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
constituency -- our constituencies. One of those must be put in place. | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
Constituents like Mrs Cox in my constituency do not object to the | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
principle of equalisation. But they do object to the point that he is | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
quite rightly making about speed and scale of change. That is why his | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
point about transitional arrangements are so important. Can | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
he also deal with the insidious invasion of responsibility among | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
some members opposite who are trying to blame the European Union rather | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
than their own government's decision for the measures they have taken. | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
This is not happening in other countries in this way. It is their | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
decision and though one else's. That is where he is right now, blaming | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
them for his sins about in action. Mrs Cox speaks entirely for all of | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
the women in the campaign who are not opposed to the equalisation at | :19:19. | :19:28. | |
65 or 66. But they are opposed to the injustices being visited upon | :19:29. | :19:39. | |
them. The truth is we have had quite enough talk about this. The sins are | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
very well-known and the government should act. They were their bills in | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
95 and 2011 and their mistakes and it is for them to put it right. | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
Women in Britain have suffered inequality in the workplace and on | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
payday for far too long. No government should compound that fact | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
when the carers and the grafters in our society, whom we rely on so | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
much, come to their retirement date. There is a budget in three weeks. | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
And the Chancellor had a golden opportunity to rise to the challenge | :20:18. | :20:27. | |
and put in place one the six variants of transitional | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
arrangements that I have talked about today. And he would be well | :20:30. | :20:30. | |
advised to do so. As my friend mentions the budget, | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
would he agree with me that given cooperation tax cuts and cuts to | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
inheritance tax we saw in the chance' most recent budget, he | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
clearly has the will to spend, and he must pay attention now to the | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
Waspi campaign. At the last budget he found ?27 billion extra in tax | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
revenues, a handy windfall down the back of the sofa. But the Waspi | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
women will have heard he didn't spend a red cent of it on them, and | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
he could have done. If he continues to play the Waspi women for fools, | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
and continues to take our pensioners for granted, he will live to regret | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
it. And that is a sentiment that I think we can share right across this | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
house. It's why not a single Conservative member chose to vote | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
against either of the previous calls for a transitional arrangements in | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
any of the debates we have helped. It's why so many of the Conservative | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
backbenchers have pledged the support to the Waspi campaign. And | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
it's why this issue will not go away without action from the government. | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
In conclusion, I give way to the campaign for Eccles. I'm grateful to | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
my honourable friend for giving way, I want to make sure we don't have | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
the same excuses from the Minister when he comes to speak in a moment | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
that he has made before, that equalisation was necessary to meet | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
the UK obligations under EU law, is what we heard, and what members | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
opposite have been writing out, but that is not true. The interesting | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
thing about changing previous legislation is that Poland is now | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
moving legislation to reverse the reforms they have previously made | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
because they clearly realise that they got it wrong, like this | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
government has got it wrong. Poland has realised they moved too fast, | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
France and Germany have done the same. Countries and governments | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
across Europe, right-wing governments in parts of Europe, have | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
acknowledged they made a mistake and backtracking. Only this government | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
refuses to acknowledge any mistake and refuses to acknowledge that they | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
have any culpability or responsibility. This issue will not | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
go away. The ministers should come to the dispatch box in a moment and | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
offer us some glint of sunlight, some hope for the Waspi women, that | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
they have heard their campaign and they will do something about it. And | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
if they do not, I urge all members across the back benches to do so on | :23:17. | :23:17. | |
their behalf. Madam Deputy Speaker, colleagues, | :23:18. | :23:33. | |
ladies and gentlemen, can I just say that the honourable gentleman has | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
just done a speech which is more politics than substance. And given | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
that he has declared himself to be a leadership contender in the event of | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
a leadership contest for Labour, it is clear that his audience today was | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
more towards getting nominated as the leader, rather than dealing with | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
the substance at hand. There is chuntering from the front bench, | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
what about the women? Besides the, what about the women and the debate | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
focused on the women, what about some substance. I wish to make a | :24:13. | :24:23. | |
little bit of progress. I will give way but I wish to make a little bit | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
of progress. Honourable members will be aware that the women state | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
pension age was changed in 1995 to equalise with the state pension age | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
for men. Equalisation was then accelerated in the pensions act of | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
2011 following extensive debates in both houses of parliament. Those | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
changes are about bringing gender equality to pensions for the first | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
time. They are about reflecting rises in life expectancy, life | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
expectancy is that continue to rise for both men and women, and which | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
will bring spending on pensions to most more sustainable levels. I will | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
give way. I want to point out to him that I think the audience for today | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
are the huge numbers of women across the country who are personally | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
affected by this. One of them has written to me to say, when | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
equalisation for pensions was first introduced in 1995, I was informed I | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
could collect state pension at 64. But in 2011 that moved to 66. This | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
is very unfair to me and many other women. It affects bearing the brunt | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
of the changes twice. Labour has recognised that, that is why we have | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
a motion today for transitional arrangements and why doesn't the | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
minister back us on this? As far as the context of the honourable Lady's | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
question is concerned, I will address those issues in my speech | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
later on. But she's absolutely right to say that the audience for today's | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
debate are the women concerned. And I in my speech intends to address | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
the substance of the subject rather than be politics. I wonder if he was | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
struck as I was in the 30 minutes the Shadow Minister took to set up | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
the challenges we faced, he didn't actually tell us at all what the | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
Labour Party would do, or which of the six changes he would commit to, | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
or whether he would commit to all six of those changes. My honourable | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
friend is absolutely right. It was a speech full of bluster, which made | :26:38. | :26:46. | |
no options. What he failed to do was to recognise the cost, to speak | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
about the cost, or explain why it was that this issue was not in the | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
Labour Party manifesto. The luxury of opposition is to be able to spend | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
money after which they have no account or responsibility. The | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
difficulty of government is to actually deal with taxpayers money | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
and take the difficult decisions that are necessary. I will give way. | :27:14. | :27:21. | |
The minister speaks as if in the last Parliament we did nothing to | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
bring this to the government's attention. That is straightforwardly | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
not true. I participated in debate after debate with the then member | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
for Leeds West, who brought it to the government's attention time and | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
again. We have had so many debates about it, can't get on and talk | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
about what we will do about it. I will come later in my speech to the | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
debate we had in 2011, but if she talks about previous governments, | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
can I gently remind her of the 13 years of Labour government, the ten | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
pensions ministers who were there, one of whom was in place twice in | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
his job, and the nine secretaries of state for work and pensions, and she | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
might just, in the interest of fairness, she might wish to | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
acknowledge the absolute limited work, if any, that was done during | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
13 years of Labour government to put on as they put it, matters right. I | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
will give way. He says it was limited, but can I point out that a | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
couple of weeks ago it was conceded by his government that Labour spent | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
over ?500 million advertising these changes and sent out over 800,000 | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
letters, in stark contrast to the previous Conservative cupboard who | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
did, frankly, down all. -- Conservative government. If he is so | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
proud of what the Labour government did before, why he is he | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
complaining? It had very little impact, otherwise he would not have | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
the these comments. When it comes to equalisation, how much leeway would | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
does the government have under EU law? EU law does require us to have | :29:06. | :29:15. | |
equalisation of pension ages. In my speech later I will come to | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
countries who have already achieved what we are still end def ring to | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
achieve. Incidentally, when the Shadow Secretary of State spoke of | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Jimmy, he's wrong, they have already achieved equalisation. -- spoke of | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
Germany. The honourable gentleman ought to recognise that while EU law | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
requires equalisation of pension ages, it also allows for | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
transitional arrangements in reaching that stage. Frankly, it's | :29:48. | :29:55. | |
disingenuous to suggest otherwise. I will come to transitional | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
arrangements a little later on. Thank you. There are women affected | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
by this issue in Northumberland who are likely to be in serious | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
financial difficulty, not most, but a view as a result of these changes. | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
My concern is for the small number of women and I would be grateful if | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
the minister and colleagues on these benches would like to look at these | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
small group who are under financial pressures. The minister is always | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
pleased to have meetings with colleagues and I more than happy to | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
meet with her along with other people. I want to make some | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
progress, I'm still my first page. I will give way and then I want to | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
some progress. My honourable friend is saying something things about the | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
opposition and they don't like it. What about a fair thing about the | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
women directly elected. How people born within 12 months have a | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
retirement age of nearly three years apart. That's the issue, and that is | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
where better transitional arrangement is needed. We know this | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
covenant has had to put right previous things previous governance | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
have got wrong. If I'm allowed the opportunity to make some progress | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
then I will talk about transitional arrangements and what we are doing. | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
I will give way but I wish to make some progress. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
there has been much by way of debate in terms of this whole issue. In | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
recent weeks we have had several debates. It comes down to two | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
fundamental issues. First, the cause to undo the 2011 pension changes. | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
The cost of undoing that would be over ?30 billion. The second issue | :31:40. | :31:48. | |
is that there calls by some to even further. And to unravel the 1995 | :31:49. | :31:56. | |
pension reforms. Yes, there are many people, including people in Waspi, | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
who want to unravel 1995. It's out there on the Internet for people to | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
see. So let's not try to deny the two options being debated out there. | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
I said at the outset I would talk about the substance. I will talk | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
about both options. I will give way in a moment but I wish to continue. | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
If we unravel the 1995 pension reforms, as many people outside want | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
us to do, that would cost ?77 billion up to 2020 and 2021. And | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
costs would continue to accrue after that period. I will give way. He | :32:39. | :32:50. | |
repeats this calumny that the Waspi women are saying, do not equalise | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
pensions and get rid of the 1995 act. That is exactly what the whip's | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
crib sheet says, but he knows that's not true. It's one comment made by | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
one woman among hundreds of thousands on Facebook. It's not what | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
they said to the committee. It's not what they said on their petition, | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
and will he withdraw it? I am simply speaking from personal experience of | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
women I have spoken to. Women have spoken to me and say they want a | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
restoration to 1995. There are colleagues in this house who have | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
had people in their surgeries speaking of 1995. He may not have | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
had it, and he might be out of touch, but the rest of us are not. | :33:33. | :33:45. | |
When we talk of ?77 billion, or even ?30 billion, we are not talking here | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
of a few million pounds, we are not talking of a few billion pounds. In | :33:50. | :33:57. | |
both contexts we are talking of tens of billions of pounds. And that | :33:58. | :34:05. | |
situation is simply not sustainable. When he says that 30 billion power | :34:06. | :34:13. | |
is being taken as a result of the 2011 changes, what he is saying is | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
that there is a transfer from one of the poorest groups in our society, | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
which is women in their 50s, a single group of women who were the | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
largest growth in unemployment in the last Coalition Government, who | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
are more likely to have to work after retirement than men, and let | :34:33. | :34:40. | |
me say, women work after retirement, two thirds of them working on the | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
lowest wage level, unlike men who work after retirement where two | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
thirds of them are working on the highest wage levels. What's he | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
saying on picking the pockets on the poorest women of our society? I will | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
address some of the points the honourable lady refers to, because | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
there is a broader context to this rather than simply the issue of the | :35:04. | :35:15. | |
pension age. If given the opportunity I would like to make | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
some progress. The reality is that people are living longer and living | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
healthier lives and this is to be welcomed but it increases the | :35:24. | :35:25. | |
pressure on the state pension scheme. As government we have | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
responsibility to keep it affordable and sustainable for future | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
generations. The changes that have been made are important to making | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
that happen. They also reflect the way both men and women live their | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
lives now rather than in the 1940s, a point I will come back to later. I | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
want to tackle head on one particular issue. Many honourable | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
members have talked about the need for transitional arrangements. | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
I would point out to honourable members the extensive debates and | :36:02. | :36:13. | |
discussions that took place at that time that the legislation was | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
passing through Parliament. Let me quote Hansard from the time the | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
pensions Bill received its second reading in June 20 11. Volume 5:30, | :36:23. | :36:32. | |
column 52. It was made clear by the Secretary of State that equalisation | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
of the state pension age would take place in 2018, and he said, we have | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
no plans to change equalisation in 2018 or the age of 66 for men and | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
women in 2020. He then went on, we will consider transitional | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
arrangements. Yes, he said, we will consider transitional arrangements. | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
Four months later, after the Secretary of State said those words, | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
and after considering the matter further, a concession was indeed | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
considered by this House and a concession, transitional | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
arrangements, was made at third reading. That transitional | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
arrangement was worth over ?1 billion to reduce the delay that | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
anyone with experience in claiming their pension and a time element was | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
reduced from two years to 18 months, so when people say that transitional | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
arrangements should have been made, I ask them to look back at the | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
record, to consider what was actually said, to consider what was | :37:52. | :37:59. | |
subsequently done for months later, that was transitional arrangements. | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
They passed to the House, there was extensive debate and engagement with | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
relative stakeholders and that was done. I will give way. I thank him | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
for giving way, I think this is the fourth time I have been involved in | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
a debate where he is answering these issues and he is still would fully | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
inadequate at answering this in justice, so will he answer might | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
constituent, who is four months outside this measure and was only | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
notified in 2012 that she would have to wait a further four years, less | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
than a year before her 60th birthday. How is that fair after she | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
has paid into the system all her working life? I will address the | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
issue of little vacation later. He has been extensive in his | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
description of the discussions that took place in this House but the | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
ladies concerned did not know. It is unreasonable of them to read Hansard | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
to understand what their pension age should be. Women tell me about the | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
changes they and their families have experienced because of this. It is | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
not good enough and the minister must listen and act. She is right, | :39:21. | :39:28. | |
the public are uninterested in Hansard, but people in this House | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
should read Hansard rather than asking Werther transitional | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
arrangements, they should acknowledge they were made. Isn't | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
this the fact that people were not aware of the 1995 pensions at, the | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
Labour government spent ?5 million of communication and is this not a | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
failure of that government that they have failed the woman involved? He | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
is right, 13 years of Labour government, ten pensions ministers, | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
nine secretaries of state for Work and Pensions, they failed these | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
women and now refuse to accept responsibility, they refused to | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
acknowledge the arithmetics of the pensions budget and seek to blame | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
this dispatch box without coming forward with any concrete repose. | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
Any sort. They refused to commit themselves, as I said, the look | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
Surrey of opposition is to speak about spending huge sums of money | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
without the responsibility of taking the difficult decisions we have to | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
take. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have given way many times and we are now | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
getting to the stage where I am afraid MPs are repeating issues | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
already raised. I am mindful a lot of people have put in to speak, | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
nobody can accuse me of not being generous, I wish to make progress. | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the changes that were made, the transitional | :41:12. | :41:20. | |
arrangements in 2011 benefited 250,000 women who would otherwise | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
have had a delay of up to two years and over 80% of those affected, the | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
increase in the time period will be no more than 12 months. The House | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
voted for this amendment, a concession was called for, it was | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
considered by the Government, it was put forward by the Government and it | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
was accepted and voted for by this House. The Government promised to | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
consider transitional arrangements in 2011 when the legislation was | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
going through and that is what the Government delivered. The reduction | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
in the time period from two years to 18 months at a cost of ?1.1 billion. | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
That shows the Government was listening to the concerns of members | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
and responded at the time. Exactly how much of that money went to the | :42:19. | :42:27. | |
woman concerned? Madam Deputy Speaker, the honourable lady needs | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
to appreciate that the concept of dealing with pensions and many is | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
that a concession was made, that concession was made by the taxpayer, | :42:41. | :42:49. | |
and the total cost was ?1.1 billion. As I said, and I am sorry she hasn't | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
got that message yet and I am sorry she doesn't appreciate there was a | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
time shortage of six months. Order. There is a lot are shouting out. If | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
the minister wants to take an intervention he will but if we can | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
stop shouting that would help us proceed with the debate. The issue | :43:12. | :43:22. | |
of the difficulty is -- of little vacation, another reason some have | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
called for is for the legislation to be revisited because it needs to be | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
looked at again but I do not accept the Government has failed to make | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
every effort to notify the women affected. I wish to make progress. | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
Following the 2011 act we wrote to all those directly affected to | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
inform them of the change to their state pension age. 5 million letters | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
were sent by DWP and the sending of the letters to those affected was | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
between January 2012 and November 20 13. Letters to those whose state | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
pension age was set either 1995 back only were sent between April 2009, | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
when Labour were still in government, and finished in March 20 | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
11. As a result of those efforts, in 2012 a survey I DWP found that only | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
6% of women who work with in ten years of receiving their pension | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
thought their state pension age was still six-day. The Shadow Work and | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
Pensions Secretary mentioned several surveys have been done and was | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
somewhat selective in the ones he referred to. The one by DWP, who | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
were running and in charge of the pension scheme, has, I would say, a | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
fair amount of validity, and only six amount of women who were within | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
six years of receiving their pension thought it was still six-day. For | :45:02. | :45:09. | |
the original 1995 changes, in 2004, nearly three quarters of those | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
between 45 and 54 were aware of changes to the state pension. Our | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
campaign has focused on raising awareness of the changes and | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
encouraging those closest to the pension age to get a personalised | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
state pension statement. Them grateful to him for giving way and | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
despite the chuntering from the front bench I can assure him and | :45:34. | :45:41. | |
everyone else that this is my question, we heard earlier from the | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
shadow pensions Secretary that he believed the communication on this | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
had been appalling. He overlooked that his own government had | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
estimated that 70% of women had been informed. He overdubbed that the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
evidence to the select committee, 600 mentions of the 1995 changes | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
were in the media at that time, anti-overlooked that in terms of the | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
briefing on the state pension at, there were 17 million forecasts | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
issued IE the Labour government between 2004 and 2006. Would he | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
agree with me that although some women were not informed there were | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
also many who were. A grateful to my honourable friend for putting those | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
facts on the record. But I am very sorry that in the interest of | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
substance, which might friend was speaking about, all we got was the | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
Yanbu politics we have come to expect from the other side. When it | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
comes to substance and fax, and anyone watching this debate at home | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
can see for themselves that they do not want to know the substance or | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
the fax. All they are interested in is politics and this is too | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
important an issue to be treated with political naivete that some | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
people on the other side are treating it. This is an important | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
subject and we aren't dealing with it and giving it the seriousness it | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
deserves. I will give way. I thank them for giving way. He is clearly | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
in a difficult corner but I wondered if he could clarify for the hosts | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
whether the Government now accepts that in women or anybody needs at | :47:33. | :47:40. | |
least ten years medication of a pension change to plan and prepare, | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
and if the Government accept that, could he explain why it does not | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
apply to these women -- notification? She will be aware that | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
the Romans have to take difficult his visions. Considering the state | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
of the big, May, the financial position this ever meant came into, | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
and one of her own colleagues said there was no money left, given those | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
were the circumstances, given the longevity of life spans for men and | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
women, the Government had to take difficult decisions as all | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
governments have to do when they are in government. This Government had | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
to take difficult decisions because they were necessary. We cannot | :48:31. | :48:38. | |
look... I will give way. I thank him for giving way. I think the women of | :48:39. | :48:46. | |
this country will be watching this debate and his comments with a | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
mixture of concern and disappointment. He is giving us | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
history lessons and trying to apportion blame. We have immaterial | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
problem now that the Government needs to address, so stop looking | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
backwards and start looking forwards, start caring for the women | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
of this country. This House has already said I am over whelming | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
majority had wanted the Government to look again at the transitional | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
arrangements, so have you looked again at it, has your position | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
unchanged since the last time we debated it and will you tell us what | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
your change in position is? If there weren't many speeches in the middle | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
of my speech, I will answer these questions in due course. We cannot | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
look at the changes to women's state pension age in isolation without | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
acknowledging the changes in life expectancy. Huge progress made in | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
opening employment opportunities for women and a wider package of | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
reforms, first, life expectancy. The reason for these reforms is that | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
people are not just living longer but staying healthy for longer. In | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
just a decade, the length of time 65-year-olds will live in good | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
health has surged by over a year. This is welcome news that the | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
reality is that this puts increasing pressure on the state pension | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
scheme. Any government has a duty to ensure the sustainability of the | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
state pension system and it would have been responsible for this | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
Government or the Coalition Government at the time to ignore | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
those developments. I will give way. Does he agree every government has | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
the responsibility to be fair to the people of this country, and women | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
are not only affected either goalposts moving but also those | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
benefits they would get at retirement age have gone as well, so | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
this is a double whammy on this group of women who have worked hard | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
all their lives. The Government has a duty to all its citizens and it | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
has to take difficult decisions and play a balancing act, and it is | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
important to bear that in mind when people talk about spending ?30 | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
billion were ?77 billion. That is serious money and difficult | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
decisions have to be taken to make sure there is a balancing act. The | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
landscape for women and employment has completely changed since the | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
1940s. Female employment is now at record levels with over 14 million | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
women in work, a record rate of nearly 70%. The number of older | :51:43. | :51:51. | |
women aged 60 to 64 in work is also at a high record, and that is at a | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
record high. There are more older women in work than this time last | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
year. In the past decade women have on average stop working later than | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
60. In 2016, the average was 63, and we know more women then work would | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
prefer to work flexibly or part time before retiring. My honourable | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
friend for Newcastle North just said to the minister that it would be at | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
least ten years for these little vocations to be brought in. It | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
seemed out confirming that women are now paying for the planned deficit | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
reduction? Can I ask what he says to my and is a joint who is now | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
disabled, cannot make up the six years she has lost in the scheme, | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
what transitional help can he give to her? The honourable gentleman | :52:48. | :52:55. | |
repeated the question asked before and I refer him to my previous | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
answer. I will turn to other issues later given the opportunity to make | :53:02. | :53:08. | |
progress. We need a pension system that acknowledges the changes made | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
in the same way that we responded to supporting older workers in the | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
Labour market. We have abolished the default retirement age and extended | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
the right to request flexible working to all employees, and we're | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
working with businesses to encourage the employment and retention of | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
workers. Third, to our wider reforms. I will give way. On the | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
issue of transitional funding, isn't it about time the Government started | :53:37. | :53:43. | |
tackling rich corporate tax dodgers and stop dodging poor women | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
pensioners? AM sure he was delighted he was able to score his cheap | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
political point. Thirdly, to our wider reforms. We inherited one of | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
the most complex state pension systems in the world. Too many | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
people did not understand what they could expect upon retiring, so from | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
April this year we are introducing a simpler state pension that will give | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
people a clear picture of what the state will provide so they can build | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
their own savings. We have the triple lock, so pensioners will see | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
their basic state pension go up by at least 2.5% every year, as it has | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
since 2011. That means from this April, pensioners will receive a B6 | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
state pension over ?1100 a year higher than at the last Parliament. | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
It is important for people to acknowledge matters in a broader | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
context rather than simply a single issue context in which many | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
colleagues here seem to treat the problem. I am grateful indeed for | :54:52. | :55:01. | |
allowing me to intervene. In response to early intervention by a | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
lady who has now left the chamber, the minister replied that ministers | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
were always happy to meet with party colleagues to discuss difficult | :55:12. | :55:20. | |
cases. Unlike the pensions minister, who has refused to come to Northern | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
Ireland and made women board in the 1950s who were adversely affected by | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
this, would he have the grace to come to Northern Ireland, meet Mike | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
constituents and other woman affected through Northern Ireland | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
and explain why this Government would not introduce transitional | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
measures? Before the minister gets back on his feet, we have 25 | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
speakers wanting to catch my eye, we hope to have the division at 4:50pm, | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
we still have another front bench speech to come, interventions are | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
long and if the minister could start concluding his remarks, we might be | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
able to get everyone in, but just a reminder we are tight on time. I'd | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
take on board what you say and I am coming to a conclusion. I would be | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
happy to meet with colleagues, though the venue would have to be | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
negotiated. It is not every day I go to Northern Ireland but if she wants | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
to meet me, I am happy to have one in London. We have ensured more | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
people are saving for their retirement by requiring employers to | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
in role their staff into a pension with an auto enrolment scheme. In | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
addition to these reforms, we have continued to cold on a range of | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
other pension benefits, including a permanent increase to cold weather | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
payments, protection of winter fuel payments and free bus passes. I will | :56:58. | :57:05. | |
not give way. We are providing greater security and choice for | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
people in retirement while also ensuring the system is sustainable | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
for the future. That is a record on pensions and pensioners on which | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
this side of the House can be proud. Parliament has debated the issue of | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
accelerating changes to the state pension. We listen to all arguments | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
for and against at the time of the 2011 pensions act. When we did make | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
transitional arrangements. We are far behind other countries in Europe | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
on the issue of equalisation. Germany, Denmark, the Czech Republic | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
and Greece have already equalised the pension age for men and women. | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
We have to look to the future, not persistent in looking backwards. | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
These changes are about putting our pension system on a secure financial | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
footing rather than continuous confusion for those affected and | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
further debate. We should build on the high levels of awareness we | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
already have and continue to promote flexibility, choice and security for | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
older people. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are no plans on the part of | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
the Government to make policy changes. Before I call the SNP | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
spokesperson, I just want to say I will start with the time limit of | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
four minutes on back and speeches but if we have too many | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
interventions I will have to bring that down. Thank you, Madam Deputy | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
Speaker. I listen to the minister for 35 million and not think of a | :58:48. | :58:55. | |
time I have been so utterly impressed, 35 minutes to say | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
absolutely nothing and to give no hope whatsoever to the woman faced | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
with pension inequality. Talk about a that is out of touch and the game | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
was given away by one of his friends sitting on the backbenches, the lady | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
for Mid Bedfordshire, who said to the Government cheap is one of these | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
ladies caught up in this. The Government know who she is, where | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
she lives, but she hasn't heard anything. Has the minister got | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
anything to say to her? Nothing, just sheer contempt from this | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
Government for the Waspi women and the Waspi campaign. He and the | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
Government should be ashamed of themselves. A Conservative MP said | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
to me last night, where we having another debate on this issue? I say | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
to the House, I have some sympathy with this view. We should not be | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
having this debate but for one simple and straightforward recent | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
that government should have acted by now to end this injustice. Let's | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
remind ourselves of the fundamentals. The SNP, I am sure | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
along with everyone else, I agree with pension equalisation but we do | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
not support the unfair manner in which the changes were made. The | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
Government must explore up options for transitional arrangements to | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
protect retirement plans for females affected, and to hear that key | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
billion tossed out by the minister, he did not say that is the years up | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
to 2026. Let me give him one suggestion. One of the things we are | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
consulting on his pension tax relief, which cost 35 million. Why | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
don't we agree on that and give some hope to the problems pensioners are | :01:01. | :01:11. | |
facing? Parliament voted unanimously on the 7th of January on a motion | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
the Government should put mitigation into place to protect those women | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
affected by this. The Prime Minister speaks about the sovereignty of this | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
House, why have this Government ignored that vote, why have they | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
ignored the will of the House, you cannot ignore the will of the House | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
at random with that legitimate demands of the Waspy people, you are | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
taking this House and the people of this country with contempt. Where is | :01:43. | :01:54. | |
parliamentary democracy? Does he share my concern that the minister | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
has basically confirmed from the dispatch box that this | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
discrimination is a price worth paying for deficit reduction? She | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
makes a very good point. The woman in the Waspi campaign are paying for | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
the failures of the economic Lossie of this Government. Let me remind | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
the House we have a Conservative government... The honourable | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
gentleman did not give way earlier because I needed to correct him on a | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
point of fact. The evidence given... That is not a point of burger. He | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
can't give way if he wants to but he does not have to. I will give way | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
because I will treat this House with the respect that was not shown to | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
the Waspi women by this Government, but she is correct, I will answer | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
the point and give way, because austerity is a political choice. We | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
argued at the election campaign that if the Government increase spending | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
by 0.5% per annum for each year in Parliament, he would increase | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
spending in this country by 140 billion but still reduced the | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
deficit to 2% of national income by the end of Parliament. It would mean | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
the German or not punishing the woman at back then by this. Show | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
some leadership, take some action and addressed this properly. He said | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
earlier that the cost would be some 29 billion by 2026. He is wrong. The | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
evidence to the select committee is that the bill and total cost 77 | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
billion, in Westminster Hall he said his party would commit to changing | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
that they were ever in the unlikely position of having responsibility | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
for these things. Would he confirm his party leader will say that if | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
ever the SNP had responsibility for this, they would commit ?77 billion. | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
Good grief! Have you ever heard such nonsense as I have just heard from | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
the honourable member? I never committed the SNP for anything. I | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
did make suggestions what the Government may do and to toss around | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
the 77 million, which referred to the 95 at, I have never done. House | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
of Commons library figures show the cost of austerity to 2011, so let's | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
get the facts right rather than the nonsense from benches opposite. We | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
will tell the truth, you can spin the nonsense. The Government keep | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
telling us this matter was decided in 2011 and we should meekly | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
accepted. What arrogance. I and every member elected in May 2013 | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
were elected to this place to represent the views of our | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
constituents in this Parliament. If we want to change the 2011 at we can | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
do with the minister should stop hiding behind that. We cannot be | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
bound by the mistakes of parliaments of the past. We're here to speak up | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
for our constituents, to hold the Government to account and to make | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
sure it right this wrong. My heavens, the ways of this place is | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
archaic. It is little wonder that people of Scotland see Westminster | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
as a relevant. Although the Government and the minister have yet | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
to debate, the pensions minister in the last government omitted recently | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
the Government made a bad decision on state pension age rises. It is | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
time, Madam Speaker, not just for Steve Webb for the Government to | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
repent. When the minister responsible for powering the bill to | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
parliament can see the air of his ways, surely the Treasury can see | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
that it has to act in the best interests of the woman attacked. | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
When I think of the intransigence of the Treasury is not taking | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
responsibility to do the right thing, the am reminded of a line | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
that could be used in the school report card, we thought George had | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
reached rock bottom but he has kept eating. This is one hole the | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
Government has to dig itself out of. MIDI Conservatives hope this issue | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
under Waspi women will go away but that will not happen, we will keep | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
fighting for them because it is the right thing to do. The Chancellor | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
has refused to act, in his bunker. When you start to pay National | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
Insurance you enter a contract with the state. The Government has an | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
obligation to make that commitment. There has to be fairness and that is | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
lacking in this case. In acting for this Government to put in mitigation | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
to acknowledge the impact of the pension age increase is too steep. | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
It is a pity in the week that the welcome in fiscal framework that | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
would allow changes in the Scotland Bill, we are not seeing changes | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
coming to Scotland, but if we had powers for pensions in Scotland, we | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
would do the right then for our pensioners. Critique tell the House, | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
is We're asking the government to make | :07:38. | :07:52. | |
it clear what it will do and offer mitigation for pensioners this | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
country. An example, a review of pension tax relief when you can find | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
the money for ?176 billion of weapons of mass destruction. You can | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
find the money to do the right thing for pensioners in this country. I'm | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
extremely grateful to the honourable gentleman and recognise the passion | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
he brings to this debate. But I'm very concerned that the Waspi | :08:18. | :08:26. | |
campaigners will be misled in not being able to understand clearly | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
what the SNP are going to commit to to bring forward the amelioration is | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
so necessary. It's incumbent upon him, if he and his party want to be | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
taken seriously, that he has a clear and costed proposal to bring to the | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
house today. This is remarkable. The difference between our government in | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
Scotland and the Tory government in Scotland, is that we have a ferment | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
that is responsible and popular. There's a very easy answer to this. | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
Give us our independence and we will do the right thing for our people. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
Undo the damage done by this Conservative government. Money is | :09:07. | :09:17. | |
important but there is another issue here, and that's fairness. Maybe you | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
don't know, but a third of the women between the age of 55 and 59, do not | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
work. They don't work because they are in ill health, or they are | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
disabled. The other half are carers looking after people. Point of | :09:35. | :09:45. | |
order. Graham Evans. Will you remind the house of the rules of the house | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
about making contributions that were not at the beginning of the debate. | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
The honourable gentleman has been in and out of the chamber and was here | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
at the beginning of the debate. Can I use this opportunity to calm | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
things down a little bit so we can move on. We have a large number of | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
members wanting to speak. If members want to make interventions, please | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
keep them short, and I can remained members that they are talking | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
through the chair. Not addressing honourable members. I agree with my | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
honourable friend, who makes a good point, it's about unfairness, women | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
who asked rigging, women in ill health, women who are struggling. | :10:33. | :10:41. | |
Let me talk about the real case of women born in the early 1950s. It | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
needs repetition, a woman born on the date of the 10th of February. | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
Let's look at the different experiences through the years for | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
the 1950s. Somebody born on February ten, 1950 would have retired age 60 | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
in 2010. A woman born a year later would have had to wait almost two | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
years longer to have retired on the 6th of January 20 12. A woman born | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
on the 10th of February 1952, would have reached state pension age on | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
the 6th of January 20 14th aged 64 years, ten months. Such a woman has | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
waited an additional two years over a woman born in 1950. If that wasn't | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
bad enough, the increase for women born in 1953 and 54 gets even worse. | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
Somebody born in 1953 would have retired in January this year aged | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
nearly 63. A woman born in 1954 will not reach pensionable age until the | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
6th of July 2019, when she will be 65 years, four months and 26 days. A | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
woman born in 1954 is having to wait two and a half years longer for | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
their pension than somebody born a year earlier. Just dwell on this. | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
Would my honourable friend agree that in playing out to the public, | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
many of the women in the Waspi campaign watching today, no doubt in | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
disappointment, will be more disappointed to see that the Tory | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
benches are populated almost exclusively by men, explaining why | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
women in cannot access their pensions. They are watching these | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
detached, remote, middle-aged men explain why they can't access their | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
pensions. I thank my honourable friend for the point, but all of us, | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
men and women, should reflect on the unfairness, because it's an issue we | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
should see simply as wrong, whether male or female, we should deal with | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
it. Let's dwell on this point, somebody born in 1953 has now | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
retired. Somebody born in 1954 is having to wait until 2019. Where is | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
the fairness in that? Let me ask members opposite, who will defend | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
this? A minister, a backbencher, who will rise and defend what the | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
government is doing? Do you seriously believe that my | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
constituents in Blackpool North and Cleveleys, who want me to be here, | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
think I should leave the chair because I'm a man and not | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
participate in this debate? I'm sorry that's the approach the | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
honourable gentleman has taken. I was looking for somebody to defend. | :13:37. | :13:44. | |
You have failed. Everybody in this chamber has the right to defend the | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
interests of their constituents. I want to make some progress. We have | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
to see if the house divides on this issue. Perhaps Tory backbenchers | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
will meekly trot through and again do nothing but support the | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
government and do something which in our view is completely untenable. | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
Now is your chance, will you defend this government? This is a debate | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
and I will happily give way to somebody on the Tory side who will | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
stand up for the Waspi campaign and the women in this country who are | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
prepared to say... I just want to point out that we would like to | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
speak when the open speeches are open. To defend what the government | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
are doing is to defend the indefensible. It is wrong, | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
mean-spirited. Don't just trip through the lobby without reflecting | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
on women, in some cases women who are losing tens of thousands of | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
pounds of entitlement. I have talked about women born up until 1954. A | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
woman born in 1955 will not retire until the 10th of February 2021, | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
aged 66. This can't be right and is far too steep and increase over two | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
short a period. The government must put in place mitigation. I say to | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
the government members, examine your consciences. You will have women | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
coming to see you from the Waspi campaign. Order, the honourable | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
gentleman is speaking through the chair, speaking to me, and I am not | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
participating in this debate. Please address in the third person. I most | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
sincerely apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker for my oversight and I will | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
insure it will not happen again. Conservative members will have women | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
from the Waspi campaign coming to their surgeries. Let's see what some | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
women have said about their real wife experiences will stop what they | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
will say to you. First, my husband and I got married in 1972 and he's | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
12 years older than me. I think we plan to life in the right way. The | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
pension law as put our plans out of the window. I have planned available | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
options when my husband retires, and in 2011 Irish requested my state | :15:57. | :16:07. | |
pension forecast. I thought the lump sum might allow me the option to | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
work two days and still enjoy my family thanks to the changes I will | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
no longer receive this. Also, I hadn't anticipated that at my age I | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
might be a prime candidate for redundancy. Losing my job in 2014 | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
was a massive blow. The government might have changed the law, but it | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
turns out many industries don't want women over 60. They are effectively | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
retiring us and forcing us to use lifetime savings on baby living | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
costs as nobody wants to hire us. There are so many points to dwell on | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
here, but importantly, it's about the crushing of so many hopes and | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
dreams. It's also the case that so many women have been forced to work | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
beyond their expected retirement date and this brings its own | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
challenges in terms of availability, suitability of employment, and many | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
are sadly experiencing ill-health. What has been the response of the | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
government? Other benefits are available? You have worked hard, | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
paid your dues to society, met your side of the bargain by paying | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
national insurance and expect to receive a pension, but this callous | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
and heartless government rips up the contract and tells people to claim | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
benefits. Is that the answer must means tested benefits will cost the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
Exchequer, and you are denied what is rightly yours. Welcome to George | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
Osborne's Britain, callous, cold and undignified. Is this the crux of the | :17:33. | :17:41. | |
issue, that here we have a clear breach of contract? If this was a | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
private pension company that unilaterally changed the pension | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
conditions of 2.6 million women in this country, this house quite | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
rightly would be up in arms. They don't want the contract enforced, | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
they want it mitigated fairly, and surely the government should listen | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
to the 2.6 million women in this country and act now. My honourable | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
friend makes a good point. We had a debate in this house about the FCA | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
and consumer protection, and here are consumers being ripped off by | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
their own government, their entitlement to a state pension. We | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
should have Conservative members of Parliament up in arms over this, | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
defending the rights of their constituents. One other example, my | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
husband will be 78 by the time I retire. I had been looking forward | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
to slowing down at 60 and putting family, husband and children at the | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
centre of my life. In Cameron's speech on why families matter in | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
2014, he stated he wanted to do everything possible to help support | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
and strengthen family life in Britain. Having been available for | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
my grandchildren, daughter and husband, we would not have to pay | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
?1700 per month for the children going into nursery. The changes to | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
the state pension have not supported or strengthened our family. The | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
changes have left us in a state of disarray, all thanks to this | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
Conservative government. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the reality. | :19:14. | :19:21. | |
As I sum up... CHEERING I could quite happily go on if you | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
want! What are Conservative MPs going to say to some women who are | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
going to have to wait six years longer than anticipated for their | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
pension? Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a breach of trust between the | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
government and the women who have earned the right to their pension. | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
We should return the advice from the report that shook measures should be | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
brought in over a 15 year period to mitigate the impact of those | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
measures. It can be argued that the start of the 15 year process should | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
be the beginning of the changes in 2010. That would mean we are | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
effectively at a retirement age of 63 for winning in April this year, | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
and the government could look to smooth the increase of pensionable | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
age for women until 2025. The government should do the right thing | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
to introduce mitigation immediately. Now is the time to act, and if not | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
we will come back to this place and fight for the women who deserve our | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
protection. I rise to speak in this debate in | :20:21. | :20:37. | |
huge disappointment. I imagine many of the Waspi women, it's not been a | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
good debate so far, and I imagine many of the Waspi women watching | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
might have switched off long ago. The party political point scoring on | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
all sides and in all parties has been quite embarrassing. There are | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
real women affected by this who have real issues. Yes, it is the fact | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
that in 1995, following the first legislative change, that the party | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
opposite did have 13 years in which it did not act. It did not inform | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
women. It is also a fact that my own government has failed as well in | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
communication. And the party opposite wasn't even here. That is | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
the SNP. Yes, there have been failures on both sides of the house. | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
I stand as a Waspi woman and I have received no communication | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
whatsoever. It's not true to say that women have been informed. It is | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
also not true to say that there has been a wide campaign of | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
advertisements and information. That campaign of advertisements and | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
information was about general pension changes, it did not | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
specifically target this group of women who have been so badly | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
affected. What I would like to spend a few minutes I have left after all | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
the party political point scoring that has gone on, I would like to | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
talk about the issues that are really affecting those women. It's a | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
fact, and I will say some words in this house that will probably make | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
the men cringe. A lot of people think I shouldn't talk about it in | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
this house, but a lot of these women, women when they reach a | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
certain age have health issues that men do not have to deal with, but | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
none of that is taken into consideration. If I was here when | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
the equalisation of pension age was about to come about, I would not | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
support it, because women have to deal with issues later in life that | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
men simply do not. Women are carers. Women in their 50s and 60s are more | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
likely to be carers than women at any other age. It's a fact. 47.7 of | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
breast cancer diagnoses is of women in their 50s and 60s. These are real | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
issues that those women out there, affected by this legislation are | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
facing. What do we say to a woman who has had breast cancer and ten | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
courses of chemotherapy and radiotherapy, who is now being told | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
that she can't retire when she thought she was going to, and has to | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
go back to work, when she is half the weight she was at any other time | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
in her life, and is sick and facing worst diagnoses in the future? What | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
do we say to those women who have been affected and lost their | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
injuries and have been blitzed with one issue after another because of | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
their illness. I have those women in my constituency. A woman in my | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
constituency was told she should have been sent a letter, and that | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
she had been sent a letter and was telling lies, by the BW P. She lives | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
now in the house she was born in. These women are facing dreadful | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
problems. I was on the telephone to the DWP finding out how she would be | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
affected. These are the complaints women have. It's not about who | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
should have done what and when, it's not about which party to blame, it's | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
not about who's at fault, it's about the problem these women are facing. | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
It's about what they want and if the minister had the grace to listen to | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
my speech, rather than talking like they did on the front bench, what I | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
would like to do on behalf of those women is stand at the dispatch box | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
today and make a commitment that at the very least... Order, we move | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
onto the next speaker. Women who work for fair transitional pension | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
arrangements have been accused by some of being in motion. There is | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
one emotion that unites most of them, and that is anger. -- of being | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
emotional. Banggaard the incompetence and stubbornness that | :24:49. | :24:50. | |
has failed to address these issues over many years. -- anger at the | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
incompetence. They faced either wrong information or no information | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
at all from government and the arrangements have now been | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
overturned. And who are the women most affected? Many of them are | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
carers. One lady who wrote to me is caring for her mother, who is in her | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
90s. Others are women who have had to retire early through ill health. | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
Yet more women who have been made redundant in their late 50s and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
early 60s. There were a lot of those under the Coalition Government. All | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
of them thought that they could just about manage until their state | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
pension kicked in. Only to find that the goalposts had been moved by | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
government and they were totally unaware of that fact. These are also | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
women who had been disadvantaged throughout their working lives. They | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
are women who started work, often before the equal pay act, certainly | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
before the cases of equal pay for equal value. There were women who | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
brought up children when there was little child care and often had to | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
take low paid and part-time jobs to fit in with their children's school | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
hours. If they are women who gave up work to look after their children, | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
they were at that time given no pension credits for their caring | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
responsibilities, and when they went back to work they found not enough | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
time to build up a decent private pension. They are often women too, | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
who have now found themselves redundant, but are kept in the | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
workforce and being put through the work programme as if they were | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
work-shy layabouts, when I have worked all their lives. Frankly, | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
ministers ought to hang their heads in shame for the way they have | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
treated these women. It is not enough, apparently, for this | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
government to damage women's prospects in every budget they have | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
introduced and make them they're the biggest burden of cuts, they also | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
have to damage their retirement prospects as well. And yet this is a | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
government that tells us it's on the side of strivers. Not if those | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
strivers are women, it isn't. It has put many women, two and a half | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
million in this country, in an impossible position. And so | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
contemptuous of those women is it, that the Secretary of State doesn't | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
even come here to answer debates. No doubt he's out fabricating some new | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
fantasy about how our security is threatened by countries like Belgium | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
and Luxembourg, those well-known bellicose nations. But the real | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
culprit we have never seen at all, is the Chancellor. Whenever there is | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
trouble, he's never here. He decided who women should bear an unfair | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
burden of the cuts. He has made sure that they are paying the price for | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
this government's policies. And in future, ministers should now listen, | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
should come to the dispatch box with more than the platitudes we heard | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
before from the minister. I haven't time to give way. And they should | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
make sure they are bringing transitional arrangements for these | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
women who have been the backbone of this country for many years. Many of | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
whom are saving us millions by caring for others, and have been | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
treated grossly unfairly and with contempt by this government. If we | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
try not to intervene, because they want to speak, it will give us an | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
impossible position. If people can shave a little bit off we will try | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
to ensure everybody gets in. I'm embarrassed to be a member of this | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
chamber today. This debate has shamed us all and I am deeply | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
disappointed by what I have heard said today. I want to come here | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
today to talk on behalf of the constituents I have met, who are | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
affected by this issue, about their financial security, and why it | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
matters to them. Why they want to be resilient and protected from | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
unexpected shocks. All those I have met have been both reasonable, very | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
frustrated, some have been intensely angry, and understandably so. I have | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
no doubt that more could have been done by parties of all sides to | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
improve communication. I'm sorry the lady is laughing at me, I wish she | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
wouldn't because this is not a laughing matter. I'm desperate | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
trying to explain here that I think more needs to be done on their | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
behalf, the cars we can review what is being done in terms of | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
communication, but that will not help these individuals. I want to | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
look carefully at what Waspi are looking for because the strength of | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
their campaign. Their petition is clear on what it calls for. I quote, | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
to put all women in their 50s are affected by the changes of the state | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
pension age at exactly the same financial position they would have | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
been had they been born on or before the 5th of April 19 50. My | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
understanding, and I want to be corrected if I am wrong, that would | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
effectively mean restore the state pension age to 60 for that | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
particular cohort of women. If that's the case, I think it's a | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
perfectly valid argument to make, but one I can't agree with. I think | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
the cost of doing so would be too great for the Exchequer to bear. | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
That doesn't mean that the answer is we do nothing. I think there are | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
many ways we can try to look at what these transitional arrangements | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
could be. I listened carefully to the SNP 's speech. I wasn't clear | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
what those plans amounted to. From the shadow secretary of state, I | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
found him to be a reasonable man when I have debated with him in the | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
chamber, from the first time we met to discuss epilepsy, I've had a high | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
regard for him. He came up with six options. Some are mutually | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
exclusive. None of which had a price tag attacked, nor did he select a | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
particular preference. But I thought it was a useful starting point. What | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
I would urge everybody on all sides is, the more information we have, | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
the more we can start to select which are the most appropriate | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
methods going forward. What problem are we trying to solve here? Which | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
is the most proportionate means to solve those problems. Which one of | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
those six could address the concerns? Some will be too costly, | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
some might not be, but we must be open to the information. The more | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
they can be costed, the better. The other point I make to Waspi, in | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
their evidence to the work and pensions select committee, I think | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
they made an error of judgment perhaps, in that they appeared to | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
rely on the prospect of any use of either means tested benefits, or | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
other pensionable benefits, to adjust some of the problem is that | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
these people might be facing. I think that was also a mistake to | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
make, because there is the potential to discuss, how once people are into | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
their pension, they could find somewhere to either mitigate the | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
impact or adjust the impact. Might bring forward the age at which they | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
can claim, but reduce the amount that they do claim, for example. I | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
would hope we can look also at whether changes need to be | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
universal, or specifically means tested. Many of my most vulnerable | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
pensioners, as the honourable member from Bedfordshire make clear, are | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
the least well off, so I hope you can at least have a wider debate. | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, and I start by offering you and the house | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
my apologies. Unfortunately I will not be able to be in the wind ups | :32:54. | :33:01. | |
because I'm in front bench duty at Westminster Hall from 4pm, and no | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
discourtesy is intended to the shadow minister or minister closing. | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
It's a pleasure, as always, to take part in these debates. But I am a | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
little saddened by the Minister's response to what I think is a fairly | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
clear motion that has been put out by the Labour front bench. Because | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
what we are asking for, we are calling on the government to set out | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
a process of transitional arrangements to be put in place for | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
this group of women who have been served a very real injustice. I'm | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
not concerned about the who, where, how, what, when my kids are | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
squabbling, they get put on the naughty step. I'm not bothered about | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
the questions, we are where we are. The Waspi women appreciate that we | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
are where we are. The real injustice is that they have been denied fair | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
transitional arrangements. When we were discussing changes to members | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
of Parliament is pension schemes, we put in place, through an independent | :34:16. | :34:24. | |
system that I accept, a 10-year transitional arrangement so that | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
those honourable and Right Honourable members who are within | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
ten years from their normal retirement age were able to remain | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
on the old House of Commons system, and the rest of us were moved to the | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
new system. I say this to the Minister, if it's good enough for | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
us, it's good enough for them. And they deserve that freedom to be able | :34:47. | :34:54. | |
to have enough time to make alternative arrangements, because | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
those were the arguments that were put when our pension changes came. | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
It's not one rule for us and one rule for the people outside of this | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
chamber. I argue, quite reasonably, that they should expect the same | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
treatment that we expect when we had changes to our pension systems. I | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
realise the Minister is not the pensions minister. The pensions | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
minister resides in the other place, and I have to say that being kind to | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
the Minister, who seemed very tetchy in his response, it probably showed | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
that he wasn't the pensions minister. I just want to say this to | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
him, this is what the Waspi women are calling for. This is their | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
petition. It is that the government must make a fair transitional | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
arrangements for all women born on or after the 6th of April 1951, who | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
have unfairly born the burden of increases in the state pension age. | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
They are not asking for changes in legislation. They are asking for | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
fairness. That brings me back to the Labour motion today, which will be | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
voted on. And we all have the chance, to not just give platitudes | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
to those women, but to actually show that we mean it in the division | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
lobbies later today. And that is that we call on the government to | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
bring forward proposals for transitional arrangements for these | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
same women. Because they deserve fairness. And that is what this | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
debate has called for, and I commend my honourable friend, the shadow | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
secretary of state, for calling it. Because it does allow us to have a | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
vote and to show these women we mean what we say. | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
I rise to speak to represent the views of Linda Anderson and others | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
who came to see me from the Waspi campaign group in Salisbury last | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
week. What was clear from their representations is that they had a | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
real and brave sense of injustice. There was clearly a different set of | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
experiences in terms of what they received over the years and their | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
understanding of the different entitlements they should have had. | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
But in this debate today, I have been disappointed either lack of | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
clarity of the alternatives that have been presented. We had a | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
powerful speech from the front bench spokesman for the SNP but did not | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
have clarity or costings on what amelioration his party proposes. | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
From the opposition front bench, as my honourable friend said, we had a | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
menu of options but no price tags and no choices. What I wanted to any | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
few moments is set out what I would do and say how much it would cost | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
because I think it is important we have some integrity in terms of | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
addressing the campaigners who have come to see us because there has | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
been far too much and motive trying to get alongside the Waspi | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
campaigners and say it is my party who will do something about this and | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
make accusations about a government that has put in significant changes | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
to raise the standard of living of pensioners and setting in place | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
mechanisms to ensure that changes in life expectancy reflected in the | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
provision this Government makes for senior citizens. It is clear the | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
pathway to equalisation was set a long time ago and it is clear that | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
there was some communication after the legislation was passed in 1995 | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
but I want to go back to this report of the select committee in 2004. | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
There is no ambiguity over what that report referred to in terms of the | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
on the bus surveyed which referred to woman in 2004, aged 45 to 54, | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
nearly three quarters were aware of the changes and that was 12 years | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
ago. I say this not to deflect from the sense of injustice of the iMac | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
campaign but to suggest that there have been a range of experiences and | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
awareness of these changes, so it is difficult to come down with clarity | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
on who knew what, when. But there does seem to be a real injustice for | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
this group of people who are now very near their pensionable age for | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
what they thought was their pensionable age and have now had | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
extended. Their lifestyle will give compromised, often there partners | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
are already retired and it has grave implications for quality of life, so | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
I propose that this group of pensioners in that cohort in the | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
early 50s are given the option to take their pension earlier. They are | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
given that option and their pension will be reduced by a relatively | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
small amount for two or three years and it should be cost neutral to the | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
Government and you can even take in effect the cost of the | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
administrative changes that would mean. That seems to me a reasonable | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
approach because it says there is a good chance that three quarters of | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
you would have heard about it but if you didn't, this option exists, and | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
I urge the front bench to consider that and come back with their | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
response. I I am pleased to speak in this debate because so many cases | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
have shown how the changes wrought by the 2011 Pensions Act affect the | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
lives of millions of women who work unfairly bury the personal cost of | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
increases to the state pension age because many find themselves without | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
a job or benefits to live on and that has to focus our minds, and | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
many women born in the 1950s are living in financial hardship. In our | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
last debate I asked the minister where was the support for Minister | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
affected either state pension age increases that his government | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
brought in. There were 2.6 million women born in the 1950s affected by | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
this but finding suitable employment went in your 60s is not the same as | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
in your teens and 20s, and experience with Mike on the Jones | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
suggests that suitable programmes do not exist. These facts were known in | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
2011. The minister was pilloried, even by his own party, when he read | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
out a list of benefits available to women affected by these changes. I | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
want to say to him he does not realise what it means to go to a job | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
centre or be pushed onto a work programme, woman in my constituency | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
told me how they felt going to job centres, they felt there was no pity | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
doing that as a woman in your 60s, after a lifetime of working and | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
paying National Insurance. One constituent said she was pleased | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
this was being taken off because it was making her ill having to deal | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
with them. One woman is on a work programme that fails to take into | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
account her previous experience and she is worried about being part of a | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
programme where she has to work for free. Others talk about her | :42:56. | :43:03. | |
experience with programme providers. 160 rolled woman with a full work | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
history was reporting being escorted by staff around a shopping centre | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
with the CV to make speculative applications to managers in shops | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
but her CV had been changed by the programme provider to disguise her | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
age, and there are legal issues but adding those aside because | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
misrepresentation of that sort can make void a contract, putting that | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
aside, we can see the acceleration of state pension ages is pushing | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
some women into that situation. Women have described the process as | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
degrading, being frogmarched with a falsified CV around eight shopping | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
centre is humiliating because the same provider offered inappropriate | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
sentiments like sweets or chocolates to encourage them to apply for jobs. | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
Women fear sanctions if they refused to participate. We should be ashamed | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
of a system that treats women that way when they have worked all their | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
lives. Why does the Government not considered different schemes? Why | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
had they not looked at a bridge pension scheme, offering | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
concessionary travel, offering winter fuel payments? Through their | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
lives these women have been disadvantaged in terms of pay and | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
pensions. They deserve better after a lifetime of work them being | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
frogmarched around shopping centres offered sweets to fill in job | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
applications. They deserve consideration of a lifetime of work | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
and contribution and fairer conditional arrangements. -- | :44:49. | :44:58. | |
transitional. I support this motion, opportunistic though it is, I will | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
have to vote against the Government which I do not make a habit of Butt | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
out of loyalty to Waspi and support of arrangement they agree with, and | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
because legislation is to be fair and proportionate and this is on for | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
and has fallen disproportionately on a small number of women. It has been | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
unprecedented, I have never known a debate on the same subject five | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
times in two months, Westminster Hall with standing room only in the | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
last debate. I welcome the options put forward by the shadow front | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
bench, they have problems but they are a starting point and the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
Government has not come up with options and offered to help to model | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
them and I would ask me can have dialogue and detail and definition. | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
There is cross-party support on getting this problem sorted, it will | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
not go away and I would ask the minister if you will agree for the | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
Secretary of State to beat a cross-party delegation of honourable | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
members with key members of the Waspi campaign with the help of | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
civil servants to look at models, to cost those and give the implications | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
so we can have faxed to see how practical or temperature call some | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
things might be. Given the time, I want to read from two letters from | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
constituents who speak more eloquently than I could. One lady | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
said two years before she was due to retire she had to wait until she was | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
66, when she began work at 15 she was always going to work until she | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
was 60 so everything was planned for that time. My family to leave in | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
working to save for the future. Despite being widowed at 202I never | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
accepted hand-outs. As a single mother I supported my son for six | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
years, I was lucky enough to remarry but still continued to work. After | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
two bouts of cancer I finally had to stop working in my mid-50s and had | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
to claim incapacity enough at but was reassured that after five years | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
I would receive my pension, so it was a complete shock that two years | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
because before I was due to receive it, I find I will not get it until I | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
I am 66. Another says she has worked as a nurse for 40 years, she | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
believed the Government would look after her and that he had a contract | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
which they have now broken as she will be 66 when she receives her | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
pension. This will cause hardship when I grow older and I feel let | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
down, my pension age has been changed twice and I cannot believe a | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
woman born two years before me already receives her pension. | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
Another lady says, it seems we older women are considered an important | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
and not worth the financial support we have earned. I agree, and we need | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
to send out a strong message that we do care about those women, there has | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
been a disproportionate affect from well-intentioned changes to the | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
pension age, and nobody is saying we need to go back to a pre-1995 level | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
but there is a compromise to be reached, common-sense that needs to | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
break out and the Government needs to listen to all sides of this House | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
and listen to woman who we value who have been affected | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
disproportionately by these changes and I hope the minister but take | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
away that message and that we can open a dialogue because we are | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
talking about real woman facing real hardship after hard working lives, | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
giving the sort of thing we encourage people to do everyday. | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
Today we find ourselves debating the transitional arrangements and the | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
need for them following equalisation of the state pension age. Contrary | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
to what was said earlier, everyone, including the woman affected, accept | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
the equalisation of the state pension age but in practice these | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
changes have had such a detrimental affect to the lives of a group of | :49:18. | :49:24. | |
women board in the 1950s and many thousands in the country, so we | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
can't ignore this no longer. Like many of us here, I have had many | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
women from Waspi contact me in my surgeries or via e-mail to raise | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
concerns about the impact the lack of transitional arrangements will | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
have on their lives. We have had many debates yet time and again the | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
Government have healed to move one inch from their position and | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
continue to ignore these concerns. From the many letters I have | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
received, the common theme was that the escalation in equalisation of | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
the state pension age has ruined these women's plans, savings and in | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
some cases lives. One case stands out in particular, a woman born in | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
1957 who explained that she saw these changes mentioned a queue | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
times on the news but as she never received a letter she assumed it | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
would not affect her or she would have been told. She eventually | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
received a letter in 2014, a routine pension calculation she thought | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
which showed her state pension age is 2023. She thought it was a | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
mistake and was horrified to discover later that it was not a | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
that instead of a pension next year she has to work a further six years. | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
She is in bad health and couldn't visit coping, but upon realisation | :50:56. | :51:05. | |
of the enormity of what this meant to her and her life, health | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
deteriorated, she became depressed and required meditation -- | :51:11. | :51:12. | |
medication, and I would hazard will never be the same again. None of us | :51:13. | :51:21. | |
can turn back time but just for a second, can the Minister put | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
yourself in that position, imagine you are that lady finding out that | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
new Zimbabwe and how that would feel. Imagine the shock. We did | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
that, we, this institution, this Parliament. Many of us were not MPs | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
in 1995, but some of us were in 2011, and the laws of this land we | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
make here affect people out there. Was it not our duty to insure these | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
women who were about to be delivered of this great life altering shock at | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
least knew about it, that they knew when they heard on the news that it | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
did affect them, not because they researched the small print | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
themselves, but because the Department for Work and Pensions | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
wrote to them personally and told them in good time, not as | :52:07. | :52:21. | |
late as 2014. Surely that was the least the department could have | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
done, and we, Parliament, should have insisted upon it. We cannot | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
turn back time and wave that magic wand that a lot of people think we | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
have because we don't have one. But we can insist that the Government | :52:31. | :52:32. | |
does, and what this minister must drop with haste, are transitional | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
arrangements for this group of women who have been failed by the system, | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
failed by these changes. We cannot fail than today. Parliament is at | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
its best when using its power for the good of its people. Parliament | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
is speaking clearly today to the Government. Go away, sort this out | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
and bring forward transitional arrangements so these women are not | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
left destitute in what should have been there well earned retirement. | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
No one in this House can doubt the sincerity of the campaign or the | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
numbers of women who have signed the petition, but as this is the fifth | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
debate we should start with what has changed since the last one. Today's | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
motion is about bringing forward transitional arrangements, and that | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
is the wording on the petition of the campaign, and that sounds | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
harmless, but what are these transitional arrangements? The | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
Shadow pensions Minister in the last debate included a specific proposal, | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
a perfectly reasonable one, about extending pension credit. But that | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
had been specifically ruled out by the spokeswoman of the campaign in | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
evidence to the select committee. The Shadow Work and Pensions | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
Secretary today, like the SNP spokesman, but talked passionately | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
about doing the right thing, but they didn't say what that was or | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
what their commitment is, or what their parties would do in the | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
position, in some cases unlikely, of being responsible for the finances | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
and pension arrangements for the United Kingdom. I believe, Mr Deputy | :54:08. | :54:14. | |
Speaker, that there is a serious danger of opposition members here, | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
in their sympathy for the cause of the campaign, of leading these women | :54:18. | :54:25. | |
up the garden path, encouraging them with sympathy but giving no | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
commitment whatsoever. And it is important that the House understands | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
that their main ask is exactly as I spelt out, from their Facebook page, | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
in the last debate, which is to ask for everybody born, all women born | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
in the 1950s to be in the same financial position as those born | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
before April 19 50. That is their "Main ask". It reverses the 1995 Act | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
in important ways. What would the cost be? Since the last debate we | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
have the data from the DWP to the select committee, and it is much | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
greater than any of us imagined. There would be an immediate cost of | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
?29 million in 2016-17, bigger than the entire budget for Scotland. The | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
total cost up to 2020 alone would be ?77 million. Mr Deputy Speaker, when | :55:22. | :55:29. | |
I discuss this issue with my wife and my sisters and others born in | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
the 1950s, and I explain to them that pensions are paid every year | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
not out of some magic protected pot called national insurance, but out | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
of general taxpayers revenue paid by the Next Generation, our children | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
and grandchildren, none of them, none of the women I have spoken to, | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
believe that cost of ?77 billion is remotely practical. So there is... | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
That is why the opposition will never propose that or agree to it | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
under any circumstances. So the question is, are there other | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
arrangements, and the other potential arrangements are being | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
considered by the select committee in a report on the new state pension | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
Act, which will include a section specifically on this campaign. I | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
believe that members should wait until that report has come out and | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
the conclusions of the select committee are there to be seen by | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
everyone, and it will only be about three weeks from now, and then they | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
will be able to see the real impact and the real cost of some of the | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
suggestions that have been put forward today. But Mr Deputy | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
Speaker, we should be clear, the campaign is a genuine one, it is a | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
principled one, they cared passionately and feel they have been | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
badly treated, but this House has an obligation not to mislead them and | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
pretend things will be done which will never be done. That is why the | :56:59. | :57:07. | |
main ask is not possible. Sometimes, a campaign captures the mood of this | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
nation. This campaign has done just that. Like so much of this | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
Government's agenda the speed of the transition arrangements for women's | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
state pensions betrays a rush to pinch pennies at too great a human | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
expense. Even more so than other groups hit by austerity, these women | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
have stung back and the wave of public support for their cause I | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
believe speaks volumes. We have a strong tradition of equality | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
campaigning in this country. I think of the suffragettes and their | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
determination to give women a voice whatever the cost, their chartists | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
and their drive for universal suffrage, the Ford Dagenham workers | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
and the demand for equal pay, Stonewall and their tireless | :57:52. | :57:53. | |
challenging homophobia in law, and the force forces society -- Fawcett | :57:54. | :58:01. | |
Society in their provocative challenge of this is what a feminist | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
looks like. Firstly I would say, this is what a feminist looks like. | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
Secondly each of these campaigns was driven by anger at injustice, | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
unfairness and the unreasonableness of those in power to listen to a | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
reasonable case. As we have heard, moving the goalposts on state | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
pension age equalisation so quickly is betraying the lives of women | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
whose lives have been already too challenging. They have already had | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
access to paternalistic -- maternity leave, fair pay and shared parental | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
leave and suffered bullying in the workplace and regularly settled for | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
low paid, low skilled jobs below their potential because flexible | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
working was not an option for them. They are a generation of women who | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
can put you -- too few seats in the boardroom. Women who finished their | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
working lives earning significantly less than their male counterparts. | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
These women have paid their dues and they deserve a decent retirement. | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
They deserve at a minimum to be able to plan their retirement with the | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
certainty and expectation others have. It is right | :59:10. | :59:27. | |
that the qualification retirement age for the state pension should be | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
the same for men and women. The campaign does not dispute this. But | :59:32. | :59:33. | |
the pace of this change has robbed people of time to repair and make | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
informed decisions, to honour other commitments about putting oneself in | :59:37. | :59:38. | |
financial jeopardy. These have been robbed from the campaigners. | :59:39. | :59:39. | |
Reasonable decisions about their family futures have been lost to a | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
forced hand. 3800 of my constituents are believed to be affected. That is | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
over 5% of my electorate. Of these 2000 will experience a year | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
increased to state pension age and 450 will experience the full 18 | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
month delay. Several have contacted me to express concerns, including | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
Gail Jones and Barbara Evans, women who have contributed to the | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
extractor and their communities throughout their lives, women now | :00:04. | :00:05. | |
being short-changed -- to the exchequer. This Government has at | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
times proven they can acknowledge it has misjudged a policy by retreating | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
on its attempts to cut tax credits and police numbers. Cynics among us | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
will say yes -- that this happens when the Chancellor feels it will | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
affect his career but it is the case they have occasionally done the | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
U-turn. I trust on this occasion the Minister will finally listen to the | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
strength of feeling from these benches and both sides of the House, | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
but especially to the passionate appeals by the campaigners, and | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
agree to revisit these arrangements. Let the Minister respect these women | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
who have contributed so much to the National purse and the national | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
fabric, and I hope when the Minister thumbs up, he will show from the | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
dispatch box today that he is what a feminist looks like and pledged to | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
think again. I have to say this has been a quite interesting debate, | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
sometimes quite poor, but clearly of great interest to many of our | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
constituents. Many of us came into politics to do the right thing, to | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
look after the right sorts of people, and clearly I joined the | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
Conservative Party because I wanted to make sure those who did the right | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
thing, who go out to work and save for their future are protected in | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
their old age. I think that runs very deep through the Conservative | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
Party and we should make sure we look after those who have been out | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
there, worked hard, or those that stayed at home and looked after | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
their children and made sure their children set off on the right path. | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
And I think today's debate, really, has been a sad reflection on those | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
women who find themselves in this very difficult circumstance. We had | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
to listen to 30 minutes from the Labour front bench of blatant party | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
politicking around the issues and challenges we face without a single | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
commitment to what they would do if they were left in this position. I | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
think that is really sad, that they talked about six particular options | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
available, they committed to none of them. They didn't say whether to do | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
one of them, two of them or six of them. And I think that was a real | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
shame that they didn't nail their flag to the poll and say, if we were | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
in the hot seat, and they left us in the hot seat, what they would do. To | :02:27. | :02:34. | |
be fair to the Blair Government, in 95, with the pensions Act, they did | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
try to engage with those people who found themselves in that difficult | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
position as we move through the Labour Government, but they didn't | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
go far enough, they didn't recognise the enormous time bomb coming in | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
terms of demographic change. And they left us in 2010 with this | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
enormous mountain to climb, to be able to solve the challenges for | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
these people, as we all live longer and healthier lives. In 2011, the | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
Conservative Coalition Government tried to solve this challenge by | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
bringing forward the 2011 Pensions Act to meet that gap. Now, it is | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
very challenging when you find yourself at the wrong side of that | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
line, and clearly a line had to be drawn somewhere so we could move the | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
pension age up over a period of time. And I do recognise that some | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
people now find themselves in really difficult circumstances, and I will | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
be listening to the Minister to identify if there are any ways we | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
can mitigate some of the challenge they face, but at the same time, I | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
think we have to recognise already some of the changes that have taken | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
place, over ?1 billion of mitigation which has gone in since our time in | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
office to try to smooth the way these people. I am enormously | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
sympathetic to the challenge I face and I will meet some soon in my | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
constituency. I think this debate will continue for a long time. I | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
have to be honest, when I heard we were debating this issue again I | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
thought, what am I going to talk about? Everything is already on the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
record, we have already discussed how the new single tier state | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
pension is irrelevant of these women and will not solve the problem, we | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
also went to great lengths to explain how nobody is disagreeing | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
with equalisation, nobody is calling acts to be repealed, then I came | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
across this document sent by a Conservative MP to a woman affected. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
On the front page it says the Government cannot do anything | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
because they are campaigning for all women born after April 1951 to be | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
given their state pension from age 60. No, they are not, that is not | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
what they are asking. The Member for Gloucester earlier was talking about | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
misleading. That is misleading, nobody is against equalisation. On | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
Monday I attended a media training course, teaching you how to look at | :05:06. | :05:06. | |
the camera, where to put your hands. One of the guys | :05:07. | :05:24. | |
taking it said to me that as a politician, if you find yourself in | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
a difficult situation where you think you are in the wrong and you | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
need to get through the interview, do not address the issue, start | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
talking about what you want to talk about. It hit me, that is what this | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
statement is doing. Every time we talk about this you talk about | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
irrelevant things. The campaign states that national insurance | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
credits are available... National insurance payments also affect | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
entitlement to other benefits. One of my achievements described | :05:44. | :05:56. | |
pensions as a contract, so let's make this simple, everyone in here | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
has a phone, we have a contract. If O2 or virgin or anyone else were to | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
change the terms or conditions, we would have something to say and if | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
they waited 14 years to tell us that terms have changed a sure everybody | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
would have something to say about it. If they also said we would be | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
forced to live off savings because of the changes, we would be up in | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
arms, so why are pensions any different? We hear about where this | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
money will come from but this comes back to austerity. This is austerity | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
of choice and the front bench can't say all they like, I have yet to | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
hear of a general or Defence Minister to save we cannot bomb that | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
country because we have exceeded our budget, when we want to bomb Syria, | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
or refurbish Westminster, we can find it but we cannot give | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
pensioners their pension. I cannot accept that. This debate reminds me | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
of that tax credit debate, we were given arguments as to how it was | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
unfair and the Government responded that they do not have the money and | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
then went political pressure was put on them, one hand down the back of | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
the coach and taken up audit and do a U-turn, which brings me to my last | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
point. How can we ignore the will of this House. We have voted 158-0, how | :07:31. | :07:41. | |
can we ignore that. We debated in a packed Westminster Hall with almost | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
everybody speaking against the Government, the Government cannot | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
continue to ignore this House. I am no fan of Westminster, I think it is | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
more about ego than issue that even the most savvy minds must see this | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
is not party political. We have a chance to come together and do | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
something that will earn respect, so the Government should take this type | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
of like this chance and act. In the last few months I have met a number | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
of constituents who have been impacted IDs changes. The detail how | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
the changes had an impact on them and I have every sympathy with them | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
and understand their frustration. I spoke during the backbench debate on | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
this matter in January and congratulated the Waspi campaign. | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
Although any criteria changes will always have an impact on some | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
people, I am conscious these individuals have in many cases | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
worked for decades on the basis they would receive their pensions at a | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
prescribed time. But I am also conscious that with retired list and | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
life expectancy and a number of years it will pay out, they did not | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
expected to reach the level many currently enjoy. These factors have | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
driven successive governments and most nations to increase the pension | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
age. Where I have issues with the motion is that it deals with | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
legislation settled in previous parliaments and employers | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
transitional arrangements. I understand that when the last set of | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
changes were made, a transitional programme was implemented to the | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
tune of over ?1 billion. To manage expectations it would be better to | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
acknowledge that changing these rules would cost ?39 billion and | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
then outline where this money will be saved to pay for the motion to be | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
delivered. I spoke earlier about the need for government to support | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
spending on mental health, especially for young people. Would | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
that be had, or the police budget, the subject of the next opposition | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
motion? I stood on make commitment to pledge budget delivery for 2020, | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
which means this would have to be paid for by someone else. Opposition | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
parties also attempted to cost commitments but I do not recall a | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
commitment to reverse this policy and beer are not managing expect | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
Haitians as it is settled and no party has said where the ?39 million | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
hit will be taken. I am grateful to him for it being way because it | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
enables me to make the point I would have made. To put this sum in | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
context, two ?9 billion, compare that to the annual spend on the NHS | :10:50. | :10:58. | |
of ?120 billion, we then begin to see how difficult it is to make the | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
sums add up. I agree with that and I believe when it comes to fitting the | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
bill, I would have concerns about another group in my contingency, | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
those in their 20s and 30s, sometimes referred to as the | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
high-cost generation because they are saddled with debts University | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
which I and my age group did not have to endure. They are paying high | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
rents and struggling to afford their own home, they are likely to be the | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
subject of future pension changes so I believe in the point just made. | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
Half measured mitigation, if introduced, with revealed the next | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
pension age group to be impacted and we could never move on. The issue of | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
pensions is vexed, it is the case that post retirement life inspect | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
and safe is greater than envisaged when pensions calculations were put | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
in place. With advances to allow those in their 60s to remain fit and | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
active, many in their 60s and beyond are working in a manner which was | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
not envisaged. This is a change in life and working age expectancy and | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
we celebrated because it shows people are living longer and leading | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
figure lies but it means a funding gap, and to avoid placing an | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
obligation on those in their 20s and 30s who were struggling to get on, | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
that gap requires the country to re-evaluate the pension age. This is | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
a settled matter, and until it can be explained which of the current | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
spending commitments will be axed to cover the cost of this ?39 billion | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
change, I cannot support this motion. It has been interesting to | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
hear the passionate arguments on this issue today. I think the first | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
thing we have to point out, this is a political decision. You guys in | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
government decided when that were going to come, we are not asking you | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
to put ?39 billion in, we are saying you not take it out. In the last few | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
months I have had people queueing up at my surgery, 3800 people affected | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
by this change. They feel as if the Government has moved the goalposts. | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
They thought they had a contract with the Government and it seems | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
not, but these are the women who in their early working lives had to | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
give up their job, no such thing as maternity pay, you develop your job | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
and applied for it if you were ready to go back and if there was a job | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
available. These women were not protected by equal pay, earned less | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
than male counterparts and were less able to join a private pension | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
scheme. Nevertheless they acknowledge this and tried to fill | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
the gap. They did not want to be a burden of society but made | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
arrangements and I think they are entitled to a pension they were | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
promised. It seems the Government is not. The people who-spoken to feel | :14:14. | :14:23. | |
as though they have been misled, misinformed and any number of cases | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
not informed at all. They feel the Government is forcing changes on | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
them and nobody is objecting to equality but what we are objecting | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
to is being imposed, difficult financial circumstances, on | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
thousands of people. One woman called cast came to see me upset, | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
she felt frustrated and the minister did not understand the impact these | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
changes have on her life, so in her own words, she said, had you been | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
born 12 months earlier, my retirement age would have been for | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
years sooner. Would that be right? Why has the burden of increase | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
followed in such a short period of time? This is unfair and any | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
intelligent person can see this. Her additional problem is that DWP | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
cannot predict her pension the tours of the number of years she was in an | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
update situation. Is that fair? She is a window and has worked all her | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
life in a range of jobs from NHS, biting sector, self-employed, and | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
now finds everything she has worked for is put on hold. She will have to | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
struggle for a few more years. She feels this is a sad state of affairs | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
and wants to know why this Government is utilising her for | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
working hard all her life. Some transitional arrangements must be in | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
place because women all over the country are put in the same | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
difficult circumstances as people in Blackburn. It is not too late for | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
these women, it is not too late to right the wrongs, transitional | :16:15. | :16:24. | |
arrangements should be made now. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The need for | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
the equalisation of the state pension age is evident. We have an | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
ageing population, people are living healthier and longer lives with a | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
greater proportion drawing a pension while a smaller proportion are | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
contributing through National Insurance. This system risks | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
becoming increasingly difficult to afford without equalisation. At my | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
surgery, a woman called Barbara, who is 59, came to speak to me. She | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
expected to retire at 62 but only recently realised she would have to | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
wait until she was 66 to retire and this is where most of the anger | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
lies, in the notification. Following the changes of 1995, DWP issued a | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
leaflet including direct mail and the advice to public of the changes. | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
In 2004 they ran an information campaign contributing over at 2 | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
million pension information guides and adverts to complement an online | :17:34. | :17:42. | |
state pension age calculator. All state pension statement issued from | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
2001 would have included the new state pension age as determined by | :17:46. | :17:53. | |
the 1995 changes and since then over 11 million statements have been | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
issued. Those affected either 2011 changes were informed by letter is | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
sent out and for those of us retiring at 65, in the last few | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
years it has gone to 66 and is now 67 for men and women born in the | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
1960s onwards. Had these efforts been fully successful, we would not | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
be here now debating this issue. This is the fourth debate we have | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
had on this subject in as many nights. -- months. The Waspi has | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
called on the Government to put all women affected by these changes in | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
the same position they would have been born in April 19 50. They want | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
to live the retirement they plan for, following the 2011 changes the | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
Government passed an amendment providing transitional funding to | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
delay the equalisation of the state pension age, on top of bringing the | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
new state pension fraud by four years. To undo the 2011 changes | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
would cost ?30 billion in addition to the loss of ?8 billion in tax | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
revenue. To undo the 1995 changes would cost several times that. The | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
new state pension will come into effect this year and see many women | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
better off than they would have been under the old system. ?460 a year | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
more than they would have got. The triple lock which ensures the same | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
state tension goes up by whichever is higher out of inflation, wages | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
were 2.5%, means the basic state pension will be higher than it was | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
at the start of the last Parliament. The lesson to be learned by all | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
governments is effective communication. Pensions are complex | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
at the best of times and I have a huge amount of sympathy but it is | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
the Government's fault, not just this Conservative government. Waspi | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
women will receive an improved pension for men and women now | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
retiring at the age of 67, they will live longer on average than men, | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
these reforms are fairer for those who receive them and for the younger | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
generation who will have to pay for them. Usually when somebody says to | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
me that so-and-so is being was the it is a signal to tread with care, | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
so when I heard the work women coming to see me at my surgery I | :20:36. | :20:45. | |
trod with care -- Waspy. I did speak in the 2011 second reading debate to | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
point out the women who left Foxhill comprehensive in 1970 word the same | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
women who were affected eye this and it was not fair and there had to be | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
a better deal then two months transitional on this issue. I am | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
aware we are short of time so I will just give voice to those women. | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
Marie says, my story began when I was 15, leaving school at Easter | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
with no qualifications. From the start of my working life at 15 years | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
I paid a full national insurance stamp believing I was entering into | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
a contract. That is a common belief. I understand the need for equality, | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
the 2011 act has given me know time to prepare for working until I am | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
66. Not only that, but things are heating allowance and bus passes | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
etc... That is a key point, those other allowances that people are | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
debarred from. I am a single parent through no fault of my own, day to | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
day life is a struggle because I have a dependent child and a | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
disabled dependent adult child. I am tired, and the thought of working | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
for another five years is daunting to say the least. | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
Christine said, I feel trapped. Her Christine said, I feel trapped. Her | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
choices are being taken away from her. | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
Annette said to me, I was born in May 1954 and my state pension date | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
has moved twice. The first time I fought in writing but it was | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
changing from my 60th birthday to my 64th year. Since then I heard | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
nothing until somebody told me to check the website. I entered my date | :22:28. | :22:29. | |
of birth. The state then came up as of birth. The state then came up as | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
January 2021, another 18 months. -- the data then came up as. I am sure | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
you will agree this is unfair and poor communication. | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
Another woman pointed out to me that her older sister was born in April | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
1952 and has already received her state pension, she is 22 years | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
younger and has to wait an extra five years five months. Not a fairer | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
and not reasonable. I could go on with many other examples. Examples | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
of similar issues. I give way to my honourable friend. | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
I am grateful. There are 3540 women affected in my constituency by the | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
changes. Would-be honourable member agree that the 1995 changes were | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
reasonably well communicated, it is the 2011 changes that were badly | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
communicated and some women affected by the 1995 changes were affected by | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
the 2011 changes, which compound of the issue? She has it spot-on, the | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
communication is one of the issues at the heart of this. Frankly, what | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
happened in 2011 compound did what happened previously and is, strictly | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
speaking, totally unfair. The nature of this debate, which I think has | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
been good once we got to the backbenches, although my honourable | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
friend did very well kicking yourself, I would welcome the | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
comments from the member for black wool North who drew attention to my | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
honourable friend's point about six suggestions and said that was a good | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
starting point. -- Blackpool North. Another person said there was a deal | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
to be done, and I think he is right. For Salisbury and Mid Bedfordshire, | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
those members also encourage the front bench on the Government site | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
to see a way through this, to see a way to put try these injustices. | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
These women are not asking for the world, they are not asking the | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
things that, frankly, some people have suggested, they are asking for | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
a reasonable settlement, a reasonable deal, which is what they | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
deserve. Women of a certain age, of which I am one, across the United | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
Kingdom, are angry at the position they find themselves in. If they | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
were born in March 1953, as the jail in the Jack and Jill twin scenario, | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
they will be absolutely livid. Jack will be getting ?155 a week under | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
the single tier state pension, Jill will be getting ?131, because she | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
was born a woman. Where is the justice in Jack netting ?20,000 more | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
over 20 years than his sister Jill? That is ridiculous. We all know | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
women who do not have access to a private pension who find themselves | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
in a position where they are forced to look for work or, if they take | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
the advice of the Minister opposite, they can sign on for JS saved. It is | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
a slap in the face for every woman who has dedicated themselves to | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
being the back bone of this country. -- sign on for JSA. The absence of | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, though I am told he is | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
loitering outside but unwilling to come in and defend his Government's | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
policies, is an absolute insult to these women. I am aware of a | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
60-year-old woman who had to find employment as a bus as called for a | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
special needs school. This involves physically manoeuvring youngsters | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
from the vehicle into the building. It is hard, heavy and demanding. How | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
do I know this? Because I did that job in my 30s and I couldn't do it | :26:21. | :26:27. | |
now. The changes to women's pensions are categorically unfair and unjust. | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
Everyone in this chamber and, indeed, across the country, will | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
have heard about the WASPI campaign. We have heard the analogies about | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
the sting in the tail, the buzz in the ad, did anybody really think | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
that in three short months of 2016 we would have debated this issue so | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
many times? That is the power of this lobby. They have proved time | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
and time again that they are fighting on the platform that | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
resonates right across this country. Everyone will know at least one | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
woman affected by this injustice. The women are only asking for | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
fairness. They have been betrayed, been discriminated against, they | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
have been seen as a soft option by this Government. They were seen as | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
the one group that could be pushed to one side to rush through the | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
transitional equal retirement age. The Government bench thought they | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
would save money, in reality they have lost credibility, lost respect | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
and been exposed by this wonderful group of strong women as being | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
petty, arrogant and, quite frankly, ridiculous. | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
Thank you. I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak on this | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
important issue and I would like to thank the women of the WASPI | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
campaign for their tireless efforts in persisting to bring this to | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
Government attention. I want to speak for the women in my | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
constituency, Burnley, for the thousands of women affected by this. | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
There has been much talk about the impact that this will have on the | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
financial impact and what the cost would be. Let's not forget that | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
these women are taxpayers that have worked hard and paid in. This is not | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
a benefit they ask for, this is a right that they are entitled to. | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
Talking about impact, I have talked to women in my constituency who are | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
physically struggling every day to cope with their physical job. I | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
spoke to one lady at the weekend in tears as she told me about her many | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
years of working in an engineering foundry, she is staggering onto | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
retirement age, in bed at 7:30pm, barely able to make to the bus | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
station to get the bus home, working on the minimum age, -- wage, long | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
years, the only light at the ends of the tunnel was retirement age at 60, | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
she thought she might stagger onto that. Not only were the goalposts | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
moved, but the communication was not there. Let's not get into the blame | :28:59. | :29:06. | |
game, whose fault it was, she did not. There has been talk about 2011, | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
19 95. I was not a member of Parliament then. I would say we are | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
where we are. Let's tackle the problem in front of us now. | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
Honourable members on both sides have made sensible suggestions about | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
sitting down together around the table, cross-party, not scoring | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
political points, sitting down with the WASPI women and working out a | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
solution to this terrible mess. Thank you. I congratulate WASPI on | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
the highly effective campaign, particularly those women from Mike | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
constituency who have come to my surgeries. Women across the UK have | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
been hit hard by this, many to their surprise and dismay as their plans | :29:50. | :29:57. | |
have been disrupted, not least for caring for their parents all four | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
children and grandchildren. So often they face unemployment with little | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
hope of getting a job, a bleak life on benefits at a time when they | :30:09. | :30:10. | |
should be enjoying the fruits of their long of work. Plaid Cymru | :30:11. | :30:20. | |
supports equalisation. It is a step towards recognising how | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
circumstances have changed radically since the pension brought in by my | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
predecessor before, as member for can often, Lloyd George, when men | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
did work for the money and generally supported women, and women worked | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
for free. It is not equalisation that is so unfair, but rather the | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
way the Government is bringing it in. As far as my country is | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
concerned, I would say the Government is making the changes in | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
response to the life expectancy, as one of the women who contacted me | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
said, it is our fault for living longer. Both life expectancy and | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
life experience varies significantly depending on class and, crucially, | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
where you live. Women in Wales will be hit particularly hard by these | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
changes. Life expectancy is generally lower in Wales than | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
England, up to 11 years difference. Welsh women and men have less | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
opportunity to enjoy their retirement, incomes in Wales are | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
low, so they have already suffered the disproportionate disadvantage. | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
Job opportunities after you and more insecure, reticulin DM Simcock | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
constituency is -- job opportunities are fewer. Particularly in some | :31:36. | :31:45. | |
constituencies. I as a question, it was smiled sympathetically and the | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
minister talks about Romania and Bulgaria. Disgracefully, that is | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
where we are in income in Wales, on a par with Romania and Bulgaria. | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
Wales has the lowest income per head of the UK nations and regions. Equal | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
treatment of men and women as to the state pension is good, but the way | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
the Government has handled this matter is not good. It is a | :32:08. | :32:17. | |
disgrace, in fact. 1950s born women are not usually seen as a militant | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
group, they were born and raised in that era of, hello, honey, I'm home, | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
spotless perfection, domestic bliss and Formica. At the situation they | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
find themselves in is far from perfect. I have only been an MP | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
since May, and like several members have mentioned, it feels a bit like | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
groundhog Day, this is the third time I have existed. At other times | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
they could not even get into the room, it was standing room only at | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
Westminster Hall. The television show Desperate Housewives comes to | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
mind, but the valiant WASPI women are far from desperate, they are | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
valiant. This Government does now have to act, I believe. The public | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
are making their voices heard, the Government is on the wrong side of | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
public opinion. It feels like Groundhog Day. It is not only | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
falling on deaf ears but there is a broken record routine coming in when | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
we are told there is no money left. At the same time, we constantly hear | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
we are in a period where economic growth is returning, things are | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
looking grow -- Rosie, the things do not reconcile. We are talking about | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
people who have been hit, everybody says, twice. Double whammy is the | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
phrase that keeps coming up in the e-mails I have received. 1895 and | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
2011. I have heard the rejoinder from opposite that the 1997 Labour | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
Government did not do anything about the 1995 issue, surely the | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
Government at that time, the Conservative Government, the civil | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
servant should have had a work plan in place. If people were not all | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
notified there should have been provision for that to keep | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
happening. But because that Government was presumably saving | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
money on communications or something, it didn't happen. As many | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
have said, we are where we are. I, like many people here, have received | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
many, many representations from different people. Michelle Carlyle, | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
born in 1954, Linda Gregory, born in 1953. People have pointed out that | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
they started work at 15, as one of them said to me, which is probably a | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
good ten years before you did. Their circumstances are different to what | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
happens today. Remember, the Equal Pay Act did not come in until a | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
Labour Government put that in a 1976. These are people who were | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
often ringing up children before free childcare, free nurseries, all | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
those things that Labour governments put in. We need to be sympathetic to | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
their plight. In this debate, people have confused the WASPI petition and | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
the wording of this motion. Nobody is arguing against equality, nobody | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
is saying that there should be company 's compensation back to the | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
levels these people would have had, it is merely asking for transitional | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
agreements to soften the blow. Some others in this campaign have been | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
many macro people like Paul Lewis of BBC's money box, a former | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
constituent of mine, Martin Lewis of money-saving expert. I urge members | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
on the other side to vote with us for transitional arrangements, | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
seeing as so much money has been found down the back of the sofa for | :35:44. | :35:44. | |
so many things. The previous pensions minister in | :35:45. | :35:55. | |
the coalition Steve Webb has admitted people will be hard done | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
by. In the 17 seconds left I will say this great pensions swindle has | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
to end now. Mr Deputy Speaker, I very much welcome the opportunity to | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
make another contribution on this issue. I would like to take this | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
opportunity to pay tribute to the WASPI campaign for continuing to | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
fight for a transitional arrangement that will protect it from the most | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
damaging consequences of the rush. All these women are asking for is | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
fairness and I commend them. This is the fourth time this issue has been | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
debated in this house, it shows the strength of feeling that exists on | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
this issue, exposes the injustice, and highlights the struggles many | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
women face on a daily basis. A lot of the damage was done with the 95 | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
act, however the Coalition Government exacerbated the | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
situation. And this government's refusal to correct the situation is | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
political folly. These women have paid into a system or the lives, it | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
is only right that the government steps in to right this wrong for | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
these women. Responding to the motion the minister shamefully chose | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
to repeat the accusation that WASPI are against equalisation. No they | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
are not. The Minister knows this. To use this line in argument again does | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
disservice to this debate, and to the women sitting in the gallery now | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
and watching at home, and a disservice to the struggles these | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
women now face as a result of the rug being pulled from under their | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
feet just when they need it most. I was hoping the Minister would give | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
the WASPI women are better response than the pitiful one given before. | :37:43. | :37:52. | |
Sadly I was wrong. Mr Deputy Speaker, I run 13 surgeries a month | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
and over the last two to three months the majority of constituents | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
attending have raised this very issue. I would like to highlight | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
some of the heartbreaking stories I have heard at the surgeries. Many of | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
these women have been looking forward to having more time for | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
themselves, only to find out with a couple of months notice they would | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
not retire at 60 as they thought. One lady who did not want her name | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
mentioned recently came to see me. She has worked all her life from the | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
age of 17 and built a career for herself which she had to give up in | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
order to care for her husband. She worked part-time and has never been | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
on benefits. She stopped working at 58 because of her health, thinking | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
she would get both her state pension and a small civil service pension at | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
60. She has never received any letters from the DWP and only found | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
out about the changes to the pension through word-of-mouth. Miss Miller | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
also receive no letter. The changes have made an impact on her finances, | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
forcing her to sell her car and her house in order to cut down on her | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
work in the future. She has suffered from a bee which makes it difficult | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
for her to continue working as a teacher. If the minister listening | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
to this? I think you owe Miss Miller courtesy of listening this speech. | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
She will have to work a lot longer than anticipated, she also has | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
caring responsibilities, caring for her mum three days a week. The fact | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
she has to work six years longer means she has six is less to spend | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
with her mum. I challenge the Minister to respond to them and | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
advise what they should do to ease their financial worries given their | :39:40. | :39:40. | |
poor health and financial circumstances. My constituents are | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
watching this debate, WASPI campaigners are watching this | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
debate, the women in the public galleries are watching this debate, | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
we are all waiting for the government to finally wake up to the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
situation, show some humility and respond appropriately. Thank you Mr | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
Speaker. It has already been said by previous speakers in this debate | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
that pensions are not a benefit, they are a contract, and the | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
government has broken that contract. And if this were done by a private | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
company they would be sued for mis-selling. When the terms of a | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
contract changed there must be notification, actual notification, | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
not Westminster politicians talking to each other, and there must be | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
mitigation when someone is disadvantaged. And in this case the | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
government must take responsibility and correct this. What future for | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
our pensions system if citizens cannot trust government promises | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
that when they pay in they will receive their due out at an agreed | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
time? Do you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me and my | :40:48. | :40:55. | |
constituents of, when you buy a car from a used car salesman, and the | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
car turns out to be dodgy, and you bring it back and the looks at the | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
car, scratches his head and says, you know, I'd really like to help | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
you out but I just can't. We are told that the government will not | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
move on this issue to put an appropriate transitional measure in. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
But the greater cost of not asking Ellie acting is the cost of | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
betraying all the women, many of whom spent a lifetime in low pay | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
literally kicking their pockets and further alienating people from the | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
cosy Westminster establishment. We are told that money for transitional | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
arrangements cannot be found. Well, Mr chair, I suspect that if | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
companies like Google paid their taxes, the government would find it | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
had more money in their pot. Choices, choices, politics is | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
nothing if it is not about choices. If the government does not act on | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
this issue then it has no alternative but to hang its head in | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
shame. The WASPI campaigners are calling for a review into the way | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
changes to the state pension age were implemented under the 1995 and | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
2011 pensions act. What's wrong with that? Other European governments | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
have brought in pension equalisation arrangements without the distress, | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
chaos caused by Discover meant as it tries to pick women's pockets, and | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
why is this? -- caused by this government. Other European | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
governments have not made a Horlicks of it, this is clock up and in | :42:33. | :42:40. | |
concert and is written large. I am sick of them boosting of a flat rate | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
pension of ?165 per week, apart from the fact that is utterly irrelevant | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
to this debate, the fact is, so many people, when they do reach pension | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
age, will receive much, much less than this, because they will not | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
have paid enough National Insurance. And it is those in the private | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
sector, the low paid, those earning less than around ?15,000 per year | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
who will be hit hardest. And these people are much more likely to be | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
female than male. What is required is an independent commission to | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
prevent further gender inequalities and ensure we can get a fair | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
universal pension system that looks at injustice is coming down the | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
track in the form of the flat rate pension which will leave many of | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
those in low pay on lower pensions than they otherwise would have | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
benefited from. So far the government has not been listening to | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
the WASPI campaigners, they've not been listening to the vote is taken | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
in this house, and I urged them to do so. What is required here is | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
fairness and natural justice, and it really is time the government held | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
its head up and faced these head on. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. This is | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
the fourth WASPI transition debate as spoken in, I must admit it's hard | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
to find something new to say, but I noticed the Minister has had the | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
same problem. That performance at the dispatch box was a disgrace. He | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
said he would talk about discretion arrangements and he didn't come here | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
avoided the issue the whole time, took interventions and fudged the | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
whole issue. Can I also remind the Minister of a suggestion he made | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
previously, he said women could make use of pension freedoms to help | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
themselves bridge the gap to transition to state pension age. For | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
me that shows that the minister does not understand that women are less | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
likely to have pensions and the pensions they do have are more | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
likely to be low in value. To suggest they should blow the savings | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
as a medial measure instead of the government helping out is crazy and | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
irresponsible. Can I also make the minister aware of another issue | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
which is ongoing at the moment? Which could camp ground matters and | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
affect peoples choice. -- compound matters. That is the exit cap. This | :45:02. | :45:13. | |
will further limit choice of people. The ?95,000 cap will not affect the | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
so-called fat cats but in many cases long serving lower paid workers. The | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
cap in its current format covers pension funds which an employer | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
requires to pay for early and in health retirement. This means people | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
who take ill health retirement might have the money due to them capped | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
because of this government, which compounds matters. At exit cap also | :45:37. | :45:45. | |
prevents operating schemes such as teacher first, which allows higher | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
paid experienced teachers retirement, which allows younger | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
teachers to be employed, saving the taxpayer money overall and creating | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
jobs follow younger teachers. Combine this cap, it will be a bad | :45:57. | :46:04. | |
deal for individuals, local authorities, and the taxpayer | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
overall. Another potential impact of increasing the state pension age is | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
making more women financially dependent on male partners. That's | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
bad for their personal esteem, bad relationships, potentially damaging | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
if there are domestic abuse cases and women find themselves in | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
financial trouble because of this. Women are having to undergo stress, | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
internal concern because of the bombshell dropped on them, that's | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
another possible consequence. That's why this government, instead of | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
ignoring what is going on, should be thinking about the consequences and | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
doing something about it. They hide behind this ?30 billion estimate. | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
People today are asking for protection arrangements. I can tell | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
you the ?30 million can be found to do a full reversal. This government | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
found an extra ?60 million to spend in the defence review to add to | :47:05. | :47:13. | |
Trident. They have allocated ?12 million for the right to buy for | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
social housing. They can introduce a mansion tax, reverse inheritance | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
tax, stop adding more people into that other place, these are all | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
choices. Choices to spend more money or subsidise other cases. The | :47:28. | :47:39. | |
government has already lost court cases regarding the bedroom tax. | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
There is a great chance they will lose another court case because of | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
the unfairness of this measure. It has a ready been said it is a | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
complete breach-of-contract. So please, I asked the Minister to take | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
account of this and put into place transitional arrangements. Thank you | :47:58. | :48:06. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased to finally be able to take part in this | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
debate on transitional state pension arrangements. As has been pointed | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
out, we've had many debates recently on the subject of women's state | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
pension age and equality. But now we are actually talking about practical | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
solutions, and we are seriously considering transitional | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
arrangements. And remember, this is transition, it's not forever, and it | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
won't cost ?30 billion or ?39 billion or whatever all the figures | :48:37. | :48:38. | |
have been floating around this chamber. Transitional payments will | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
help all those women born in the 1950s who have suffered a double | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
whammy from both the 1995 and the 2011 pension acts. Those women who | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
have e-mailed, written, phoned, Facebook, tweeted me and fellow MPs | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
upon seeing their plans for retirement disintegrate. The basic | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
issue here is fairness. And all we're asking for is for the women | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
affected to fairly treated. This particular group of women has not | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
been communicated with properly. Many of them tell me that they | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
either did not receive letters or that the letters they did receive | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
were unclear. And contrary to the view held by some in this chamber, | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
the women against state pension in equality campaign is not asking to | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
go back to receiving state pensions at 60. What they are asking for is | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
simply fair treatment. These are women who work part-time, who were | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
not even eligible for their occupational pension schemes when | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
they started work. These are women who gave up work to bring up | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
children, effecting their personal occupational pension if they were | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
lucky to have one. These are women who have worked in difficult | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
conditions, many of whom have had to retire early because of ill health. | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
These are women who, as well as bringing up children, are now | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
shouldering the burden of caring for elderly relatives in their later | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
lives. These women have all been through the doors of my surgeries in | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
my constituency, and I'm sure the story is familiar to all honourable | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
and Right Honourable members. My constituents frequently urge me to | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
take this argument to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. I | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
have extreme difficulty doing this, as in the many debates we've had on | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
this subject, he has not attended a single one. | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
Jackie, one of my constituents, introduced herself to me as June 54 | :50:43. | :50:51. | |
and furious. She made a very valid point that denying her access to her | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
state pension until she is 66 also denies her entitlement to | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
concessionary travel and to the Winter fuel allowance. Jackie | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
started work in 1971, but had to take early retirement from the | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
police service in order to care for an elderly relative. My honourable | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
friend the shadows that has made six helpful suggestions as to how fair | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
transition may be put in place to help women like Jackie -- my | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
honourable friend, the Shadow Secretary of State. Let's stop | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
prevaricating, I await the Minister's response to these | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
suggestions which has been supported by many on his side of the house. | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
Let's help turn Jackie from June 54 and furious to June 54 and finally | :51:40. | :51:48. | |
fairly transitioned. Mark Durkan. Thank you, Mr Deputy | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
Speaker. Like others, I regret that much of the debate at the dispatch | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
botched... Box was about fixing the blame rather than fixing the | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
problem, that is the honourable member for Pontypridd put forward a | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
six-pack of options which he rightly asked the Government to put forward. | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
Let's remember the salient point of this motion is called on the | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
Government to bring forward proposals for transitional | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
arrangements for women and firstly affected by the acceleration of the | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
increase in state pension age. -- add firstly affected. It is logical | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
and reasonable, that is why the member for Worthing East is prepared | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
to supported. I would ask them of his colleagues to join them, not | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
least ones who fought violently and valiantly to restore things for the | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
Equitable Life members and called on the taxpayer to make sure they were | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
supported and restored to some position of equivalence and use | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
taxpayers' money. If people were prepared to fight for Equitable | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
Life, they should not be indifferent to the WASPI women aren't what they | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
face. We should be responding to them with justice. It is not just | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
the issue of a breach of trust and breach-of-contract, we have the | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
question of moral hazard. If Parliament will say, we can be quite | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
capricious with state pension, we send out a pension... Signal to | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
private pension providers that they can do what they want and we will | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
not be able to reprimand or interfere, we send out a dangerous | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
single to the people we are encouraging to have confidence in | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
show responsibility in terms of pension planning, that's what | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
happens to their mother shows that even when you make provision for | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
pensions you do not even get what you thought, they change the rules | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
on you, so don't bother about pensions, just see what you get. | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
We need to remember that we should not be offering the mixture of | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
conceit and deceit that we were hearing from some of the honourable | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
members opposite. We were told by the honourable member for Bexhill | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
and Battle that this matter is settled and can't be touched, | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
because it was settled when? By Parliament in 2011, so it is settled | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
and we cannot touch it. They are telling us about Parliamentary | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
sovereignty! They are saying we want is standard to the EU but are hiding | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
behind a completely false explanation of EU rules and | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
requirements in defence of this intentional injustice visited upon | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
these women. It is not just a case of what the honourable member says a | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
line has to be drawn somewhere. These are not just some haphazard | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
victims of a drive-by cut in the name of austerity, they have been | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
carefully selected and calculated as the victims. Why? Because they have | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
been used to inequality and injustice all of their life, they | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
have received inequality in terms of gender pay gap is, being denied | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
access to second pensions at a time when male colleagues given access. | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
The name now seems to be, oh, give them one more twist of injustice in | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
the name of equalisation, as they come to the end of their working | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
life. That is a travesty offering people stone for bread, this | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
Parliament should be doing better. Currently in parliament we have | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
legislation going through which will be changing legislation through the | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
last parliament. The financial services act and the banking reform | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
bill went through, they have been changed by legislation going | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
through, the enterprise Bill is changing legislation, so is the | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
Trade Union Bill. Yesterday we had the welfare reform and work bill, | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
which is changing legislation which went through in the last Parliament. | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
You can change legislation to bring cuts but not to bring justice. | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
Compared with 2011, we have pension freedoms, a tax windfall for the | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
Treasury with that. Look at the new fiscal amber that is coming with | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
those pension freedoms and use that to give pension justice. | :55:52. | :56:00. | |
Order! Shadow Minister! Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is great to | :56:01. | :56:10. | |
follow the excellent speech from the member all Foyle. There has been a | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
lot of interest, thanks to the 154,000 people who have signed the | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
petition by the WASPI campaigners. And their sterling work. There was | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
standing room only in the Westminster Hall debate, this was my | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
first debate. The issue was of significant importance to all | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
members across the house. We heard from many about these women who feel | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
ill-prepared and short-changed by the failure to communicate and | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
deliver full transitional arrangements. There has been some | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
excellent points made by honourable members during the course of the | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
debate today illustrating the stark reality faced by many women trying | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
to plan for retirement in the context of these changes. Excellent | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
contributions, passionate contributions have been made on | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
behalf of constituents from all sides of the house. I would like to | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
make particular dedication and put on the record my thanks for the | :57:07. | :57:14. | |
members from Paisley in Renfrewshire, East Worthing, sure | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
home and others, because there has been supported cross party for the | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
WASPI women and the difficulties they face. | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
I know it is difficult for members on the opposite side of the bench to | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
go against their Government at times and speak out against their | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
Government, I would like to pay particular credit to those people | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
who have done that. The member for Mid Bedfordshire, Blackpool North, | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
Salisbury and East Worthing and Shoreham. I know it is difficult to | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
make those passionate speeches and I thank you for your contribution | :57:45. | :57:46. | |
today. I would also say to the members | :57:47. | :57:57. | |
opposite who have also... I almost called them Tories, that is how we | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
call them locally, I am being nice, the members opposite for Gloucester, | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
Bexhill battle, Weaver Vale and Sherwood. It is not about racing | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
back to the 1950s, the 1995 changes. We have given options, I have asked | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
the minister many times to give me costings of what transitional | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
arrangements are in place, I would urge them to look at their | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
conscience, the passionate but debate we have had, vote accordingly | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
and support the motion today. I would like to mention the member for | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
Warrington North, Washington and Sunderland, Stanley Bridge in | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
height, who was apparently a great feminist, although not so much as I | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
am, the member for Blackburn, Scunthorpe... OK, maybe the same! | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
Scunthorpe, Swansea East, Burnley, Ealing Central and Acton and Hayward | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
and Middleton, and other honourable members who have spoken in support | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
of the motion today, Paisley and Renfrewshire North, North Ayrshire | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
and Arran, kill Manet, I am so relieved I got all of those | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
constituencies correct, that kept me awake at night, not the Minister. | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
But despite the views from members from all sides of this house, the | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
Secretary of State today has still refused to look at transitional | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
protections for these women. Hindsight is wonderful, but it is | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
crucial that we now learn from those mistakes of the past and act | :59:31. | :59:37. | |
accordingly. We know that ministers' predecessors had hoped for around a | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
tenth of the direct savings of ?3 billion to beat put aside for | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
transitional arrangements. The option eventually put forward was | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
around a third of that. We have a missing ?2 billion which has gone to | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
the Treasury along with the rest of the savings. There are different | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
options, we have heard many today which have been put forward for | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
consideration. The Government has still failed to respond to them. | :00:06. | :00:12. | |
I am grateful. She has referred to the ?1.1 billion, which brought it | :00:13. | :00:21. | |
down to 18 months. We are told that only 20% roughly are left at 18 | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
months, so the cost would be ?200 million. Can we put it to Government | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
that ?200 million would have bought the loyalty of the rest of us this | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
evening, but it won't if they don't. I thank the honourable member for | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
his intervention and I hope that the minister will answer that question. | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
Of course, the bill of just over ?1 billion that was put in, according | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
to my research, over half of that was to men. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
This is not the first time that these pensions have asked for | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
consideration that the Government has made -- these benches have | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
asked. I would really like to see and hear what the Government has | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
done to try to look at transitions. We have had many, many debates, as | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
other members have rightly said, since then. This is an issue that | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
crosses party lines, people watching this debate today are incredibly | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
proud of where I have come from. I was a home help. Many women pushed | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
me into coming to the House of Commons, they will be watching this | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
debate, affected by these changes. When I stood for Parliament I was | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
asked, what do you think is your proudest moment? I would say | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
delivering equal pay, standing up for women's rights. We have a choice | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
today, an absolute choice, to do the right thing. Any members have said | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
that. I hope the Minister listens to the debate today, I hope the | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
Government do the right thing. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
sorry that the time limit prevents me from paying credit to all of the | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
speakers today. There has clearly been real passion, well thought out | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
and measured responses on both sides of the House, talking about the | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
challenges we face, concerns raised directly by residents and the work | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
of the WASPI campaign, which I know many embers have paid close | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
attention to. Credit to the honourable member for Washington and | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
Sunderland, the member for Sunderland and Burnley, the quickest | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
speaker today to give some extra people's extra time. I understand | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
the challenge that my honourable friend for East Worthing and | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
Shoreham and my honourable friend from Mid Bedfordshire have found | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
themselves in. It is a difficult decision, particularly to gob | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
against your own Government. I would gently say that my honourable friend | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
for Blackpool North and Cleethorpes, Weaver Vale, Salisbury, Gloucester, | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
they set out in great detail the wider issues and challenges we face. | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
Key to that, as was so eloquently put by my honourable friend for | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
Sherwood and Bexhill and Battle, yes, the opposition has set out six | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
options which are very attractive, how simple life would be if we could | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
simply say yes to all six or any number of those six options? | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
Wouldn't it be simple? But not a single one has been costed out, not | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
a single one has suggested what we shouldn't we be doing. There is a | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
vague guesswork occasionally, these are exactly the same things. There | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
were debates yesterday in Westminster Hall, the same vague | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
ideas. Because of time I will not do that. Mr Deputy Speaker, we have to | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
look, the acceleration of the state pension equalisation being offered | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
by this government in order to achieve gender equality in state | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
pension provision and provide a sustainable system to work for | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
future generations, often that is what is forgotten. It is always | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
about now, now, now, not the future generations, our children and our | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
children's children. Politicians have often just bequeathed more | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
deaths to them. Due to highlight expectancies and the difference in | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
state pension age, women have an average received considerably more | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
state pension over their lifetimes than men, not only was equalisation | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
necessary to meet EU obligations but it provides the foundation for a | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
fairer state pension. I apologise about interventions, those who have | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
debated in Westminster Hall know I will always try to answer as many | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
interventions but we do not have time today. The foundations for a | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
fairer state pension which treats men and women equally is something | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
we can all agree on the cross both sides. The changes to state pension | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
age were fully considered when the 2011 act was passed. The Government | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
listen to concerns at the time and adopted a concession worth over ?1 | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
billion, benefiting over quarter of the million women. 81% of women | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
affected will experience a delay of 12 months or less, compared to the | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
previously legislated timetable. The Government is committed to helping | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
all the workers stay in the labour market and has extended the right to | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
flexible working to all employees to help achieve this, and we are seeing | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
record numbers of women in employment, 1 million more since | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
2010. With the introduction of the national minimum wage, over two | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
thirds of those benefiting will be women, which we can be proud of. For | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
those having difficulties, the Government provides the same support | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
for women as men of the same age, in work, out of work and disability | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
benefits. I appreciate the comments made about government | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
communications. My honourable friend ball Weaver Vale made great play of | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
this. All governments of all political colours have wrestled with | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
the best way of communicating. DWP Road direct it all the individuals | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
affected by the 2011 act using the address details recorded by HMRC at | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
the time. More than 5 million letters were sent. Service has been | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
available for individuals to request a pension estimates, it is providing | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
individuals with their state pension age and has been since 1995. These | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
lessons are beings we have taken on board with the autumn and Roman | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
scheme which we are seeing being very successful. | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
We must review this. Those reaching pension age will receive a new state | :06:23. | :06:32. | |
pension, reformed system which particularly benefits women who | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
would have had poor outcomes under the current system. 3 million women | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
stand to gain an average ?11 per week as a result of these changes. I | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
would like to close by reminding the house of the reasons for the reform, | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
for a state pension system to function effectively it has to be | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
fair, affordable and sustainable. These changes make an important | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
contribution to achieving these aims. The question is as on the | :06:58. | :07:07. | |
order paper. As many of the opinions say "aye". | :07:08. | :07:59. | |
The question is as on the order opinion, as many of the opinions say | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
"aye". Order, order. The ayes to the right, | :08:08. | :20:38. | |
265, the noes to the left, 289. The ayes to the right, 265, the noes | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
to the left, 289. The noes have that, the noes have it. Unlock. We | :20:48. | :20:56. | |
now come to the deferred division results, so it is order, order, I | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
have to are now announced the result of the deferred decisions in respect | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
of relating to road traffic. The ayes the 299, the noes 226, the ayes | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
have it, the ayes have it. In respect of the question relating to | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
estimates, the ayes were 301, the noes 60, so the ayes have it, ayes | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
have it. We now come to the second opposition Day motion relating to | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
the police funding, crime and community safety. I called the | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
Shadow Secretary of State for Health Police, Andy Burnham. Thank you. I | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
beg to move the motion standing in my name and those of my right | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
honourable friends. We have called this debate for one simple reason, | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
public has not been told the truth, either about police funding or crime | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
figures. With the second is police and crime commission elections just | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
weeks away people need the facts. So this evening we set the record | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
straight. A matter of weeks ago, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood at | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
that dispatch box and made this explicitly clear promise to the | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
police and public. There will be real terms protection for police | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
funding. The police protect us, we are going to protect the police. I | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
am sure members opposite remember it, they waved their order papers. | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
It could not have been clearer, real terms protection. They were not off | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
the cup remarks or a slip of the term, it was the centrepiece | :22:40. | :22:41. | |
announcement of the autumn spending review statement made with the Home | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
Secretary and the Prime Minister at his side, the traditional rabbit out | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
of the hat that we have come to expect on such occasions, designed | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
to produce mass weighting of order papers. Madam Deputy Speaker, there | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
was once a time when if the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
statement of that kind in that way to this house, it would have meant | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
something more than just a grab for the next date peers headlines. | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
People could trust it to be true, because it had been said by a | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer at the dispatch box in the House of | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
Commons. But it seems we live in different times. Ministers these | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
days, from the Prime Minister downwards, are decidedly less | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
attentive than they used to be to the voracity of what they say at | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
that dispatch box. I think we should worry, all of us, every member of | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
this house, because, in the end, it goes to the heart of trust in this | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
place and what we all do. Surely, of all public services, the police | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
should be able to trust the word of ministers of the Crown when | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
commitments are given here. Wouldn't it be a sign of real disrespects to | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
people who put themselves in harm way on our behalf day in, day out, | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
if the Chancellor was writing checks that he knew would not be able to | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
cash. You would think so? But in today's politics, ministers think | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
they can say what they like and get away with it. This evening I will | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
present to the House new analysis showing that the Chancellor has | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
broken his promise to the police and the public. He has failed to provide | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
real terms protection for police budgets in 2016/ 17. In fact, he is | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
about to cut police budgets yet again, for the sixth year in a row, | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
for the six years that he has been Chancellor and the six years that | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
she has been Home Secretary, we have had six years of cuts to the police. | :24:51. | :24:58. | |
What a record! And to think that they used to call themselves the | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
party of law and order. The question for this house tonight is this, are | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
we prepared as they House of Commons to let them think that they can make | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
promises to this house and break them within days of making them, or | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
are we going to do something about it, to hold them to account and make | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
them on the word that they gave to local police forces. I give way to | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
my honourable friend. If you return to the 3rd of February 2010, you | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
will find their way to thousand more police officers under the Labour | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
government then, but the increase of that budget was 2.7% of the | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
Conservatives thought that was not enough at that time. I was just | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
coming on to that, Madam Deputy Speaker. The cuts we are now facing | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
come on top, as he has said, of the loss of 18,000 police officers in | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
the last Parliament, 12,000 of them front-line officers, thousands of | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
PCSOs have also lost their jobs, civilian staff. We have begun to see | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
the break-up of neighbourhood policing, which was a great | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
achievement of the last Labour Government, it brought police out of | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
their stations and cars, back into communities, restoring trust and | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
bringing down crime. Labour should be proud of that record. I am | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
grateful to him for giving way. Is he aware that commitments were made | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
that the sale of police stations and the buildings would help ensure | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
there were additional police on the front line? We have lost St John's | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
Wood, Harrow Road, Paddington Green has been sold and we are still | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
nearly 30% down on police numbers as to where we were in 2011. | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
The same story is repeated all over the country. I would ask my | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
honourable friends to think about the cuts to other services alongside | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
the police, two councils, mental health, social care, disability | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
benefits, Ambulance Services, the Fire Services. All of those pile | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
extra pressure on an overstretched police force, that is what we are | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
seeing. These cuts planned now come at a time when this country faces | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
multiple challenges on many fronts, when the threat level has never been | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
higher. Something has to give. I give way. | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
I thank him for giving way. Does he agree there is a stark contrast with | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
the approach the Welsh Labour government has taken in Wales, with | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
funding for thousands of new PCSOs making up for the shortfall they had | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
seen elsewhere? Overlays people will hear what my | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
honourable friend has just said and make their own judgment. Who protect | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
community safety and stands at for the police? When they come to vote, | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
they will know that Labour in Government, when it runs councils, | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
when we have laboured PCCs, they protect front-line policing, | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
neighbourhood policing and improve community safety, he made that point | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
very well. The question we had to ask the Home Secretary is how many | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
more consecutive years of cuts can the police force take before public | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
safety is seriously compromised? England and Wales already have far | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
fewer police officers per head compared to our international | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
counterparts. If the ratio drops even lower there are real fears that | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
if a Paris style attack, God forbid, were to happen here, importantly, to | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
happen outside of London, there would simply not be the ability to | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
surge enough police officers onto the streets quickly enough, | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
specifically firearms and specialists units, to protect the | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
public. I give way. I understand he is giving a bit of | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
welly as part of his rehabilitation, but I am confused. I am confused by | :29:07. | :29:15. | |
two things. The first, as yet I have not heard him acknowledge that over | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
the last seven years crime has continued to fall quite | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
significantly. Secondly, I haven't heard him refer to his own | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
recommendation of 10% cuts in police funding, which were made not six | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
months ago. I wonder if he would enlighten the house on those issues? | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
I am doing fine, thanks, and I hope he can see that I will be standing | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
up for the police force even if he isn't. What I would say to him on | :29:49. | :29:58. | |
both the points that he raises, I will come onto crime. I don't think | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
his Government is telling the correct story about what are doing, | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
they are not providing real terms protection, they are cutting the | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
police. The two standard but dispatch box and is a crime is | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
falling, the police minister said it can the a few days ago, they fail to | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
point out that those crime figures do not include online crime, they | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
are about to come into the crime statistics for the first time. In | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
the last six years, crime has changed and moved online. Those | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
figures have not been counted. I would not be so complacent if I were | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
him. He mentions what was said in the Autumn Statement about what I | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
was meant to have said. There is far too much spin coming out of that | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
dispatch box over there. Look at what I actually said, I am about to | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
come straight onto that. Madam Deputy Speaker, in a moment. I just | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
talked about the specialist and firearms units needed to protect the | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
public, but neighbourhood policing is crucial to collect the | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
intelligence to combat the terror threat. My worry is if the | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
Government proceeds in this parliament with year-on-year cuts, | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
they will break up the neighbourhood teams. Let me take the House through | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
in detail. Analysis by the House of Commons library of next year's | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
police grant settlement of individual forces shows they will | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
not be protected in real terms. In fact, they will not even be cash | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
protected. In 2015/16 the overall allocation to individual forces, | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
excluding special payments to London, was ?7,452,000,000. In | :31:41. | :31:52. | |
2016/7 it will be ?7,421,000,000, a ?30 million cash reduction or ?160 | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
million in real terms. I give way. I am very grateful. Very rightly, a | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
few moments ago he said that the level of the threat is severe and we | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
are all aware of that will stop could I make the same invitation to | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
him that I issued to his front bench colleague in the previous policing | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
debate, he mentioned the importance of armed police officers. The Leader | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
of the Opposition has made very clear that even these on police | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
officers around, they will not be allowed to use them, in his vision | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
of policing. Will the Shadow Home Secretary at Met that that is a | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
dereliction of duty, would he take the opportunity of speaking from the | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
dispatch box to clarify the opposition's position? | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
The Leader of the Opposition said that was simply not the case, there | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
is no change whatsoever to long-established policy when it | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
comes to police keeping the public safe. I will give way. | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
I wonder if he would agree that in addition to the cuts the 4.6% police | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
precept rise in the West Midlands, apparently negotiated by the | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
honourable members four Solihull and Dudley South, amounts to nothing | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
more than local law paying more pounds for less peace? -- local | :33:07. | :33:14. | |
people taking. They are making the local people in the West Midlands | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
and Greater Manchester pick up the bill, but to get less in terms of | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
police on their streets. We know, don't we, they are very good at | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
cutting urban areas like Greater Manchester and the West Midlands and | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
taking money elsewhere, that is the reality stop our constituents will | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
pay more for less, the Chancellor and Home Secretary have broken their | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
police promise to our constituents. I thank my honourable friend for | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
giving way. In my constituency in Brent Central, since 2010 we have | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
lost 108 police officers and 104 PCSOs. The only increase is in the | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
voluntary special constables, that is 98. The Government is trying to | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
police by volunteers, not by police officers. | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
I will come onto that. The bill we will debate in a week or so is all | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
about a part-time police force, a part-time police force to deal with | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
the growing threat faced from online crime and fraud, from the terror | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
threat, it is not an answer to the challenges of the future. I will | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
come onto that before I finish. I will make a little more progress, | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
then give way. Let's get the facts on the record, | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
36 out of 43 police forces in England and Wales have received | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
their grant allocations from the Home Office, and they show a cut in | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
cash terms. How does that deliver the Chancellor's pledge of real | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
terms protection? Wireless, all police forces in England are facing | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
real terms cut steer. -- worse, all police forces. If the same level of | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
cuts are sustained of the spending period, as we suspect, that will | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
result in all the role cuts of between 9% and 10%. | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
I am coming to the point, right into the spending review, police have | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
been told to expect cuts of over 20%. | :35:14. | :35:15. | |
If you speak to senior police officers they were still expecting | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
cuts of over 20% the day before the spending review. The honourable | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
gentlemen nods because he knows I am right. It was stained pressure from | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
these benchers that forced a rethink from the Government. After the Paris | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
attacks, I will give way to the Home Secretary in one moment, the whole | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
question of police funding had to be looked at in a new light. I wrote to | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
the Home Secretary after the Paris attacks and said, while, of course, | :35:49. | :35:50. | |
efficiencies could be made, anything over 5% cut in real terms over the | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
course of this Parliament would be dangerous. That was completely | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
misrepresented by the Chancellor, I am pleased to correct the record. | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
I'm grateful for giving way. In response to my honourable friend who | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
was a distinguished deputy mayor for policing here in London, he said | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
there was far too much spin from this side of the house when my | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
honourable friend made reference to this 10% figure. It actually came | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
from a Labour Party press release where the Right Honourable gentleman | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
said "Of course savings can be found, the police say five to 10% | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
over the parliament is just about doable" so he accepted 10%, why is | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
he now so worried about cuts in funding? What I said when that | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
presence was issued was up to 5% would be doable, and I have said | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
this consistently so if she would just listen... Up to 5% would be | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
doable and we stand by that. Up to 10% would be difficult. Over 10% | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
would be dangerous. She was threatening to cut the police by | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
over 20%. So let's get the facts straight here. And she will recall | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
because she asked Cobra to review police funding in the light of the | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
Paris attacks, we consulted the police in the light of the Paris | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
attacks, we listened to what they had to say as she would have been | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
listening to what they have to say, they said over 5% would be difficult | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
if not dangerous and that is what I put in a letter to her before the | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
Autumn Statement. So let's have it right in here. So the public are not | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
misinformed and there is no spin from that dispatch box. So in his | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
desperation to play politics in the Autumn Statement the Chancellor | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
tried to misrepresent my position but he outdid himself. He did not | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
just misrepresent my position, he misrepresented the government's | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
position, 10% cut as budget protection, we now know it is | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
nothing of the sort. Their defence will rest on the claim that they | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
gave councils extra freedom to increase the police precept to make | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
up the shortfall. But as I will now show that does not hold water. For | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
the guaranteed to be given in this house at the Chancellor did come he | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
would have needed firm agreements from local councils and PCCs that | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
they would raise the extra cash locally. He did not have those | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
agreements, not even from Conservative PCCs. Devon, Cornwall | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
and Cambridge are forces will not be raising their precepts by the full | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
amount, and Hertfordshire are shown to have lowered there. The Home | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
Secretary says it is their decision. Can I tell her again? She promised | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
real terms protection for police budgets. She is not delivering real | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
terms protection for police budgets. She has broken her promise to the | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
police. And I'm afraid she can't just shrug that fact. The | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
Conservative PCC for Devon and Cornwall says this, on the | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
applications for his force of the spending review" while I completely | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
welcome the government's changed position on police funding it | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
remains a fact, central government funding to Devon and Cornwall police | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
in 2020 is estimated to be 90% less in cash terms, real terms 32% less | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
than it was when I commenced office in November 2000 and 12. " 32% down | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
in real terms. 43 officers going next year, 28 police staff going, | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
too. It's not on, Madam Deputy Speaker, and they can't just shrug | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
this off. The next out they will no doubt when to make is that those | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
authorities who have used the precept freedoms will have been able | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
to protect budgets but that is not true either. Let me quote from the | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
Hampshire independent PCC Simon Hayes "The medium-term financial | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
strategy shows an estimated budget shortfall of ?6 million by 2020 | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
assuming a 1.99% council tax precept increase. So he can't make up the | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
shortfall from his precept. Let me apply the same test to the Home | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
Secretary's police force and my own. Next year Thames Valley Police will | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
see a real terms cut in central government funding of ?5 million. | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
The income raised by full use of the precept does not cover this | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
shortfall. And in fact forces like Thames Valley are also having to | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
contend with other cost burdens loaded onto them by the Chancellor, | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
including the apprenticeship level and the extra National Insurance | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
contributions. In their case amounting to over ?6 million, money | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
out of front line policing. What is the net effect of this in her police | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
force area? You should listen to this. 95 officers going next year. | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
51 police community support officers, 161 staff. There you have | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
it, the Home Secretary has broken her own police pledge to her | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
constituents. Quick look at my own force, Greater Manchester Police. | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
According to figures from the library, central government funding | :41:18. | :41:19. | |
down by ?8 million in real terms next year. They have also made full | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
use of the freedoms from the precept, but it will not make up the | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
shortfall. As my honourable friend said before, they will be paying | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
more for less. As Tony Lloyd said," contrary to the Chancellor's | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
rhetoric, this is a cut". I give way. He is making a powerful speech, | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
very much highlighting the differential impact that the impact | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
across the board has. I want to give the example of Northumbria Police, | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
just 12% of Northumbria Police's revenue comes from the local tax | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
precept which is far below the national average of 25%. Therefore | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
the ability to make up for the shortfall is hampered by that and | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
clearly Northumbria is the worst hit of all forces with local residents | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
paying more for less. Absolutely right, Madam Deputy Speaker. Less | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
ability to raise money so they cannot make up the cuts that the | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
government is giving to them. It could be about to get even worse I | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
am sorry to tell her because the Guardian reported yesterday that the | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
Home Secretary is about to bring forward a new police funding formula | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
after the mess made of it by the police Minister, who will divert | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
funding away from urban forces towards rural forces. She's shaking | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
her head, I was glad she would, because please tell me this is not | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
true. We recently had a situation where ?300 million was miraculously | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
made available for local government in England at the last minute. But | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
surprise surprise not a penny, barely a penny went to any council | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
are presented on this side of the house. It all went to councils | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
represented on the other side of the house. If we have a police funding | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
formula that does the saying it would add insult to injury and make | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
a complete and utter mockery of the government's already dubious | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
commitment to creating a northern powerhouse. I have listened | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
carefully for 22 minutes now, his entire assessment is based on the | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
amount of money the government has Kevin. There has been no mention of | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
smarter policing, better procurement, better use of | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
technology. An example from his own side yesterday, a former member of | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
this house and now the Police Commissioner for Merseyside has | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
managed to halve the budget for her office and all that money has gone | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
into front line policing. There is more to policing than just the | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
amount of money they get from Central office. I couldn't have put | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
it better myself, vote for a Labour PCC. Labour PCCs will work cleverly | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
to protect front line policing, they will drive innovation, they will | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
drive reform. Protect your police by voting Labour in May, thank you very | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
much to the honourable gentleman for making my point is probably better | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
than I could have done myself. I give way. I am grateful. Just on the | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
point of additional sources of funding for policing to plug some of | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
the gaps he has talked about, as he knows those productions are over | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
five years, and in that period of time some PCC 's may take control of | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
the far authorities. Does he believe it would be right or wrong for PCCs | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
to use fire budgets to plug the gap? I think it would be wrong, and I am | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
very worried about the proposal to put fire under the control of the | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
BCC, because they will be the poor relation. We have a situation where | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
thousands of firefighters, fire pumps, fire stations are at risk | :44:56. | :44:57. | |
from the local government settlement. And I do commit to him | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
and members opposite, if you look at the cuts to police and also consider | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
cuts to the Fire Service, we all have to ask ourselves the question. | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
Is there a adequate emergency cover in all parts of the country? I | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
believe we are getting to the point where some people say that is no | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
longer the case. And I think we do need to look at those two things | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
together. If you put two underfunded services together it does not | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
necessarily create a financially safe service. I am conscious of the | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
time. The government's alibi for its police cut so far has been that it | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
is OK to cut the police, as the former Deputy Commissioner... Member | :45:37. | :45:44. | |
responsible for policing said, it's OK to cut police because crime is | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
falling, that was basically the argument he just made. What is it | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
true? The latest recorded crime statistics in January showed large | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
increases in violent crime, knife crime, hate crime, sexual offences. | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
As ever ministers will say look at the British crime survey but as I've | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
said, crime has changed. It has migrated online. So yes, you might | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
see a downward trend in the traditional volume crime, burglary, | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
theft, you might see that in the British crime survey, but when you | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
ask the British public, have you been the victim of online crime they | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
will probably say yes, I have been. And I think if those figures are not | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
included in the British crime survey, no wonder we are not having | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
an accurate picture of crime. I will give way one final time to the | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
honourable gentleman. I acknowledge the issue he is raising but would he | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
accept that you cannot patrol to prevent online crime, and that the | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
solution to online crime is not about throwing bodies at it but | :46:45. | :46:46. | |
actually about throwing technology at it, and that can be done either | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
relatively cheaply or much more efficiently? I tell you what you | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
don't do is throw volunteers at it, which is the Home Secretary's | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
proposal. I am going to come onto that, and I will explain. It is | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
surely both technology and people. You need sophisticated teams to deal | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
with it. I think it's fair to say most police forces do not have that | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
capability at the moment, and they will not get that capability by | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
cutting them, by cutting the numbers, by cutting their budgets. | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
We need a sophisticated response. I will give way. I am very grateful to | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
my right honourable friend. The honourable gentleman opposite is | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
trying to suggest there is no link with the reduction in support and | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
funding for police services. In greater Manchester ?8,500,000 has | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
been cut, 1600 staff have been cut, and we know that there is an | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
increase in crime. In my own constituency burglaries have doubled | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
year-on-year. Isn't this the effect of what this government is doing? It | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
is. From what they inherited. And how on earth can that police force | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
now develop the capability to deal with the threats we face looking to | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
the future? Crime is falling, therefore we can cut the police... | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
It won't work any more, Madam Deputy Speaker. You are going to have to | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
get a new script. It is unsafe to cut the police, because crime is | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
becoming more complex. I give way to the Home Secretary. I am very | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
grateful for giving way to meet for a second time. He has been making an | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
argument about the importance of accuracy in reporting figures. Can I | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
therefore ask him why it is that in relation to a Labour Party press | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
release issued in January on crime statistics with the heading of | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
"Crying up 6% the biggest increase" the UK Statistics Authority wrote to | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
my honourable friend the member for Braintree and said the following "By | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
focusing on police recorded crime without appropriate caveats and | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
limiting evidence from the more complete and reliable source for | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
most violent crimes in the crime survey for England and Wales, it may | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
have given, in part, a misleading impression". Will he now apologise? | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
I won't. My honourable friend said the figures were accurately | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
reported, and I will not do that. The challenge is today for the Home | :49:15. | :49:22. | |
Secretary to explain her claim that crime is falling. The recorded crime | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
figures do not show that, as we are about to see. The British crime | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
survey, some experts say, is about to show that crime has in fact | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
doubled, and that is the issue she is going to have to explain and work | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
hard in doing so. Tackling online crime is one of the biggest | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
challenges we face but forces don't have the capability. The question is | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
this: how are they going to do this with further cuts? To be fair she | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
has floated one idea, she told the BBC website in January she was | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
planning to recruit a new army of volunteers to help solve | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
cybercrimes. She said volunteers who specialise in accountancy or | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
computing, IT professionals, these people could work alongside police | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
to tackle cyber and financial crime. I say in all honesty, is that really | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
the best the government can come up with to crack the complex crime | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
challenges of the future? To Reza's temps? Dad's Army of retired | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
accountants to take on and defeat the sophisticated international | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
organised crime and fraud networks? The week after next we will debate | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
her bill, and it will put forward powers to be given to volunteers | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
without becoming special constables. Is that really the answer? A | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
part-time police force? It does not equate to a vision for policing in | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
England and Wales that is up to the challenges of the future. | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
"Subtitles will resume on 'Wednesday In Parliament' at 2300." | :50:48. | :50:57. |